Wokeism, the Huntly women’s team, and the “snowflake generation”

[Northernhibee]

I’ve been mulling over posting this or not as it’s quite a personal topic, but after the thread on the main board about the Huntly Women’s team forfeiting a fixture after a player of theirs was reduced to an inconsolable state I’ve decided to open up the debate again in a more appropriate setting.

Please allow me the indulgence of sharing my back story as I feel it adds to why I feel the need to challenge the narrative on this.

I was quite heavily bullied at school. I had long hair, liked folk music and twee Scottish indie, and was quite academic so I stood out like a sore thumb and as quite an introverted person I never went out of the way to obtain acquaintances outwith my close group of friends.

It started with quite capable things, but then someone (I don’t know who) decided to spread rumours about my sexuality. I’m a straight man, but the truth didn’t matter about this and this ramped stuff up dramatically. At home, at school, down the street. Someone tried to break into my house, someone vandalised something we had in the garden to remember my late grandfather. It drove me to a state where I questioned whether or not I wanted to still be alive.

I do have a very thick skin nowadays (not completely - sometimes something catches me off guard and I have to make a conscious effort to figure out how it’s punctured that armour) and my sense of humour can be quite dark - nothings off topic in the WhatsApp groups but obviously as I’ve said on the thread if someone were to find a boundary was crossed then we’d wind it back a bit.

What got me thinking was by challenging the idea that just because football had always had a dressing room culture of close to the knuckle “banter” that would make someone woke, a snowflake, or the cause of the downfall of society.

For me, strong people challenge the status quo at the risk of becoming an outsider. Whistleblowers, activists, rule breakers. I find myself challenging people who are rude to staff in shops or other establishments. It’s not comfortable but it’s the right thing to do.

I, very oddly, became friends with one of my bullies later on in my life. He grew up, got responsibilities and new friends and became a much more likeable person. I didn’t even fully remember who it was until we got chatting away as he was such a different character.

We eventually spoke about it before and I used the same stuff to shrug it off like “character building” and “it’s what happens in that sort of environment”.

Spent quite a while wondering why I said that and eventually after a few months told him what it was really like. He spoke about how that as he was part of a bigger group it didn’t feel as bad as it seems now looking back on it, it felt like “banter”. He summed up about how he always feared not becoming part of the “group” and ending up on the wrong side of that mentality. I forgive him entirely for that as he’s shown his own vulnerability in regards to the role he played.

I see similar with the Huntly player and team. We all have wounds that we try to hide and by the sounds of them, one of them was opened quite notably. She was reportedly visibly upset at the time and although we don’t know, by the fact at the time she was inconsolable at half time, there appears to have been no attempt to apologise at that moment.

These wounds are individual to each person - and I do believe that we all have them.

People can talk about sledging and competition and the like and if was a Champions League final or even a game in the Scottish Premiership where the stakes for victory and defeat are so high I could maybe understand, but it was Rossvale Women vs Huntly women. A game between two amateur clubs. Who is stronger - those who say it’s “just part of the game” or those who risk fines and forfeits and negative comments online to challenge this behaviour?

We have one openly gay player in the Scottish league system. I believe the first we’ve had. After the incorrect rumours about my sexuality, I’m in the odd position of having been on the wrong end of a lot of homophobia whilst also being straight and I wonder how much “dressing room banter” either stops people from coming out or makes men’s football an environment where someone who is gay may not choose to be a part of. There doesn’t seem to be the same issue in the women’s game, or at least not to the same extent.

Nobody is saying that you can’t make a joke. Nobody is saying you can’t rib someone. Nobody is even saying anything is off limits. It’s as case of “if you cause upset or offence then it’s maybe good to not continue down that path”.

The good thing is I see a sea change in this generation. Greta Thunberg a beacon in terms of this. They’re a generation not frightened to challenge norms or convention, not afraid to stand up for others or for themselves, but also not afraid to show vulnerability. They’re not afraid to express themselves or to live their lives as they are. The generation coming through now fill me with hope.

Seeing them called woke and a snowflake generation and more makes me wonder - who is really the strong and who are really snowflakes who melt under the slightest scrutiny?

Sorry if this was very long and quite personal - I genuinely think a debate about what strength of character is might be good but also I felt last night was left unresolved.

[Pretty Boy]

Excellent post.

I think people need to accept that what might have flown a decade or 3 ago just doesn't today. It has always been like that, times change and the world moves on.

You mention someone starting a malicious rumour about your sexuality. That was something Graeme Le Saux had to deal with throughout his career. He read the Guardian and wasn't into the big drinking culture in the England squad at that time so was 'bent'. A number of fellow pros joined in with the 'banter', some even actively encouraged it and he has spoken at length about how it impacted him despite the fact he was heterosexual and married with kids. It was almost accepted back then as 'one of those things'. It was around that time the 'Hibees are gay' stuff started and that persisted for a decade or so before, to their credit, Hearts fans largely self policed it out of their song book.

I've never really supported this idea that people should be deplatformed entirely. By all means argue that as a state broadcaster the BBC shouldn't platform Jim Davidson, as an example, but I don't think we have the right to pressure a random theatre in Sunderland to cancel him. I don't like him, I wouldn't got to see him but I pity him more than anything. If people want to see him and are entertained by a man talking about 'sambos' and 'shirtlifters' then more fool them. I get that almost flies in the face off my wider point but I think it's better to challenge people rather than out and out cancel them.

I think there still has to be room for a joke. My mates and I can be quite brutal to each other but we have known each other long enough to know where the limits are. You can push me a lot further than some others but that's not true of everyone and I think respecting when you approach or cross that line and stopping or apologising when necessary goes a long way. Equally I think there are some things that are said privately that are perhaps deliberately provocative and really shouldn't be shared publicly. Just because something works between a group of mates doesn't mean it is or should be accepted by the wider world.

For me it all comes down to respect. Respecting that just because I don't give a **** if someone calls me a 'fat *******' doesn't mean everyone has to be ok with it. Respecting that the world doesn't need to hear that you think women belong in the kitchen rather than on a football field. If you want to joke about that with your mates privately then you do you but don't get all offended and upset when someone pulls you up for saying it on a public platform.

[lapsedhibee]

I’ve been mulling over posting this or not as it’s quite a personal topic, but after the thread on the main board about the Huntly Women’s team forfeiting a fixture after a player of theirs was reduced to an inconsolable state I’ve decided to open up the debate again in a more appropriate setting.

Please allow me the indulgence of sharing my back story as I feel it adds to why I feel the need to challenge the narrative on this.

I was quite heavily bullied at school. I had long hair, liked folk music and twee Scottish indie, and was quite academic so I stood out like a sore thumb and as quite an introverted person I never went out of the way to obtain acquaintances outwith my close group of friends.

It started with quite capable things, but then someone (I don’t know who) decided to spread rumours about my sexuality. I’m a straight man, but the truth didn’t matter about this and this ramped stuff up dramatically. At home, at school, down the street. Someone tried to break into my house, someone vandalised something we had in the garden to remember my late grandfather. It drove me to a state where I questioned whether or not I wanted to still be alive.

I do have a very thick skin nowadays (not completely - sometimes something catches me off guard and I have to make a conscious effort to figure out how it’s punctured that armour) and my sense of humour can be quite dark - nothings off topic in the WhatsApp groups but obviously as I’ve said on the thread if someone were to find a boundary was crossed then we’d wind it back a bit.

What got me thinking was by challenging the idea that just because football had always had a dressing room culture of close to the knuckle “banter” that would make someone woke, a snowflake, or the cause of the downfall of society.

For me, strong people challenge the status quo at the risk of becoming an outsider. Whistleblowers, activists, rule breakers. I find myself challenging people who are rude to staff in shops or other establishments. It’s not comfortable but it’s the right thing to do.

I, very oddly, became friends with one of my bullies later on in my life. He grew up, got responsibilities and new friends and became a much more likeable person. I didn’t even fully remember who it was until we got chatting away as he was such a different character.

We eventually spoke about it before and I used the same stuff to shrug it off like “character building” and “it’s what happens in that sort of environment”.

Spent quite a while wondering why I said that and eventually after a few months told him what it was really like. He spoke about how that as he was part of a bigger group it didn’t feel as bad as it seems now looking back on it, it felt like “banter”. He summed up about how he always feared not becoming part of the “group” and ending up on the wrong side of that mentality. I forgive him entirely for that as he’s shown his own vulnerability in regards to the role he played.

I see similar with the Huntly player and team. We all have wounds that we try to hide and by the sounds of them, one of them was opened quite notably. She was reportedly visibly upset at the time and although we don’t know, by the fact at the time she was inconsolable at half time, there appears to have been no attempt to apologise at that moment.

These wounds are individual to each person - and I do believe that we all have them.

People can talk about sledging and competition and the like and if was a Champions League final or even a game in the Scottish Premiership where the stakes for victory and defeat are so high I could maybe understand, but it was Rossvale Women vs Huntly women. A game between two amateur clubs. Who is stronger - those who say it’s “just part of the game” or those who risk fines and forfeits and negative comments online to challenge this behaviour?

We have one openly gay player in the Scottish league system. I believe the first we’ve had. After the incorrect rumours about my sexuality, I’m in the odd position of having been on the wrong end of a lot of homophobia whilst also being straight and I wonder how much “dressing room banter” either stops people from coming out or makes men’s football an environment where someone who is gay may not choose to be a part of. There doesn’t seem to be the same issue in the women’s game, or at least not to the same extent.

Nobody is saying that you can’t make a joke. Nobody is saying you can’t rib someone. Nobody is even saying anything is off limits. It’s as case of “if you cause upset or offence then it’s maybe good to not continue down that path”.

The good thing is I see a sea change in this generation. Greta Thunberg a beacon in terms of this. They’re a generation not frightened to challenge norms or convention, not afraid to stand up for others or for themselves, but also not afraid to show vulnerability. They’re not afraid to express themselves or to live their lives as they are. The generation coming through now fill me with hope.

Seeing them called woke and a snowflake generation and more makes me wonder - who is really the strong and who are really snowflakes who melt under the slightest scrutiny?

Sorry if this was very long and quite personal - I genuinely think a debate about what strength of character is might be good but also I felt last night was left unresolved.

Agree with you except the bit about sledging perhaps being ok in professional sport though not in amateur. The only sledge I've come across - attributed to many different cricketers - that has any merit at all is the one about the feeding of biscuits. The merit being that it's actually funny/clever. What Naebadges is reported to have said to Nisbet just makes 'badges a very small person. If that's really an essential 'part of the game' then it's a fairly ****ty game.

[McD]

I’ve been mulling over posting this or not as it’s quite a personal topic, but after the thread on the main board about the Huntly Women’s team forfeiting a fixture after a player of theirs was reduced to an inconsolable state I’ve decided to open up the debate again in a more appropriate setting.

Please allow me the indulgence of sharing my back story as I feel it adds to why I feel the need to challenge the narrative on this.

I was quite heavily bullied at school. I had long hair, liked folk music and twee Scottish indie, and was quite academic so I stood out like a sore thumb and as quite an introverted person I never went out of the way to obtain acquaintances outwith my close group of friends.

It started with quite capable things, but then someone (I don’t know who) decided to spread rumours about my sexuality. I’m a straight man, but the truth didn’t matter about this and this ramped stuff up dramatically. At home, at school, down the street. Someone tried to break into my house, someone vandalised something we had in the garden to remember my late grandfather. It drove me to a state where I questioned whether or not I wanted to still be alive.

I do have a very thick skin nowadays (not completely - sometimes something catches me off guard and I have to make a conscious effort to figure out how it’s punctured that armour) and my sense of humour can be quite dark - nothings off topic in the WhatsApp groups but obviously as I’ve said on the thread if someone were to find a boundary was crossed then we’d wind it back a bit.

What got me thinking was by challenging the idea that just because football had always had a dressing room culture of close to the knuckle “banter” that would make someone woke, a snowflake, or the cause of the downfall of society.

For me, strong people challenge the status quo at the risk of becoming an outsider. Whistleblowers, activists, rule breakers. I find myself challenging people who are rude to staff in shops or other establishments. It’s not comfortable but it’s the right thing to do.

I, very oddly, became friends with one of my bullies later on in my life. He grew up, got responsibilities and new friends and became a much more likeable person. I didn’t even fully remember who it was until we got chatting away as he was such a different character.

We eventually spoke about it before and I used the same stuff to shrug it off like “character building” and “it’s what happens in that sort of environment”.

Spent quite a while wondering why I said that and eventually after a few months told him what it was really like. He spoke about how that as he was part of a bigger group it didn’t feel as bad as it seems now looking back on it, it felt like “banter”. He summed up about how he always feared not becoming part of the “group” and ending up on the wrong side of that mentality. I forgive him entirely for that as he’s shown his own vulnerability in regards to the role he played.

I see similar with the Huntly player and team. We all have wounds that we try to hide and by the sounds of them, one of them was opened quite notably. She was reportedly visibly upset at the time and although we don’t know, by the fact at the time she was inconsolable at half time, there appears to have been no attempt to apologise at that moment.

These wounds are individual to each person - and I do believe that we all have them.

People can talk about sledging and competition and the like and if was a Champions League final or even a game in the Scottish Premiership where the stakes for victory and defeat are so high I could maybe understand, but it was Rossvale Women vs Huntly women. A game between two amateur clubs. Who is stronger - those who say it’s “just part of the game” or those who risk fines and forfeits and negative comments online to challenge this behaviour?

We have one openly gay player in the Scottish league system. I believe the first we’ve had. After the incorrect rumours about my sexuality, I’m in the odd position of having been on the wrong end of a lot of homophobia whilst also being straight and I wonder how much “dressing room banter” either stops people from coming out or makes men’s football an environment where someone who is gay may not choose to be a part of. There doesn’t seem to be the same issue in the women’s game, or at least not to the same extent.

Nobody is saying that you can’t make a joke. Nobody is saying you can’t rib someone. Nobody is even saying anything is off limits. It’s as case of “if you cause upset or offence then it’s maybe good to not continue down that path”.

The good thing is I see a sea change in this generation. Greta Thunberg a beacon in terms of this. They’re a generation not frightened to challenge norms or convention, not afraid to stand up for others or for themselves, but also not afraid to show vulnerability. They’re not afraid to express themselves or to live their lives as they are. The generation coming through now fill me with hope.

Seeing them called woke and a snowflake generation and more makes me wonder - who is really the strong and who are really snowflakes who melt under the slightest scrutiny?

Sorry if this was very long and quite personal - I genuinely think a debate about what strength of character is might be good but also I felt last night was left unresolved.



Nothing to apologise for mate, it’s a great post imo


People are entitled to their opinion (mines is broadly aligned with yours tbh), but whether any of us like it or not, the world is changing in a great number of ways, and there is always people who rail against that change (this is not to say that all change is good or positive).


It’s not long ago that any man struggling with anything was inevitably told to ‘man up’, if he even dared to voice his problems. It’s also not long ago that racist or sexist chants/abuse were deemed the norm at football (and elsewhere). Both of these things were responded to as being woke or whatever other kind of language used, ultimately both these changes have seen an improvement in society in general.


Equally, I struggle to see the point in belittling anything just because it’s women doing it rather than men. If you don’t want to watch women’s football, rugby, athletics, or whatever, then don’t. There’s no need to put the boot into it though, it means something to the players participating and the fans watching, even if not to the person putting it down. There’s plenty male dominated pastimes that people would take offence to others being so derogatory or rude about. Any child, male or female, should have their passions and dreams encouraged - if any of them want to be a professional footballer, a brain surgeon, an architect, a builder, a labourer, an athlete, a prime minister, then give them encouragement, rather than have them read comments like ‘females are too small, not skilful enough, not good enough mentally to play football’.


Totally agree with what you’ve said about making a joke - read the room, and if your joke is causing offence to someone, apologise and don’t repeat it/similar comments. As you said in the other thread, just don’t be a prick. It’s not hard.


Edit: just read PB’s reply, also a great post 👍

[Northernhibee]

Excellent post.

I think people need to accept that what might have flown a decade or 3 ago just doesn't today. It has always been like that, times change and the world moves on.

You mention someone starting a malicious rumour about your sexuality. That was something Graeme Le Saux had to deal with throughout his career. He read the Guardian and wasn't into the big drinking culture in the England squad at that time so was 'bent'. A number of fellow pros joined in with the 'banter', some even actively encouraged it and he has spoken at length about how it impacted him despite the fact he was heterosexual and married with kids. It was almost accepted back then as 'one of those things'. It was around that time the 'Hibees are gay' stuff started and that persisted for a decade or so before, to their credit, Hearts fans largely self policed it out of their song book.

I've never really supported this idea that people should be deplatformed entirely. By all means argue that as a state broadcaster the BBC shouldn't platform Jim Davidson, as an example, but I don't think we have the right to pressure a random theatre in Sunderland to cancel him. I don't like him, I wouldn't got to see him but I pity him more than anything. If people want to see him and are entertained by a man talking about 'sambos' and 'shirtlifters' then more fool them. I get that almost flies in the face off my wider point but I think it's better to challenge people rather than out and out cancel them.

I think there still has to be room for a joke. My mates and I can be quite brutal to each other but we have known each other long enough to know where the limits are. You can push me a lot further than some others but that's not true of everyone and I think respecting when you approach or cross that line and stopping or apologising when necessary goes a long way. Equally I think there are some things that are said privately that are perhaps deliberately provocative and really shouldn't be shared publicly. Just because something works between a group of mates doesn't mean it is or should be accepted by the wider world.

For me it all comes down to respect. Respecting that just because I don't give a **** if someone calls me a 'fat *******' doesn't mean everyone has to be ok with it. Respecting that the world doesn't need to hear that you think women belong in the kitchen rather than on a football field. If you want to joke about that with your mates privately then you do you but don't get all offended and upset when someone pulls you up for saying it on a public platform.

I completely agree in regards to the cancelling of people like Jim Davidson, Roy Chubby Brown etc. as it all comes down to the audience in front of them. People know who they are and by new few are likely to buy tickets to either expecting Stewart Lee.

Daniel Sloss has a wonderful Ted talk on a similar subject.

[Jay]

I just love that the future generations are gonna do better than us but we played small parts in that education.

[lapsedhibee]

I just love that the future generations are gonna do better than us but we played small parts in that education.

Hmm. Andrew Tate has 9.9 million followers on X (formerly known as Twitter).

[marinello59]

I’ve been mulling over posting this or not as it’s quite a personal topic, but after the thread on the main board about the Huntly Women’s team forfeiting a fixture after a player of theirs was reduced to an inconsolable state I’ve decided to open up the debate again in a more appropriate setting.

Please allow me the indulgence of sharing my back story as I feel it adds to why I feel the need to challenge the narrative on this.

I was quite heavily bullied at school. I had long hair, liked folk music and twee Scottish indie, and was quite academic so I stood out like a sore thumb and as quite an introverted person I never went out of the way to obtain acquaintances outwith my close group of friends.

It started with quite capable things, but then someone (I don’t know who) decided to spread rumours about my sexuality. I’m a straight man, but the truth didn’t matter about this and this ramped stuff up dramatically. At home, at school, down the street. Someone tried to break into my house, someone vandalised something we had in the garden to remember my late grandfather. It drove me to a state where I questioned whether or not I wanted to still be alive.

I do have a very thick skin nowadays (not completely - sometimes something catches me off guard and I have to make a conscious effort to figure out how it’s punctured that armour) and my sense of humour can be quite dark - nothings off topic in the WhatsApp groups but obviously as I’ve said on the thread if someone were to find a boundary was crossed then we’d wind it back a bit.

What got me thinking was by challenging the idea that just because football had always had a dressing room culture of close to the knuckle “banter” that would make someone woke, a snowflake, or the cause of the downfall of society.

For me, strong people challenge the status quo at the risk of becoming an outsider. Whistleblowers, activists, rule breakers. I find myself challenging people who are rude to staff in shops or other establishments. It’s not comfortable but it’s the right thing to do.

I, very oddly, became friends with one of my bullies later on in my life. He grew up, got responsibilities and new friends and became a much more likeable person. I didn’t even fully remember who it was until we got chatting away as he was such a different character.

We eventually spoke about it before and I used the same stuff to shrug it off like “character building” and “it’s what happens in that sort of environment”.

Spent quite a while wondering why I said that and eventually after a few months told him what it was really like. He spoke about how that as he was part of a bigger group it didn’t feel as bad as it seems now looking back on it, it felt like “banter”. He summed up about how he always feared not becoming part of the “group” and ending up on the wrong side of that mentality. I forgive him entirely for that as he’s shown his own vulnerability in regards to the role he played.

I see similar with the Huntly player and team. We all have wounds that we try to hide and by the sounds of them, one of them was opened quite notably. She was reportedly visibly upset at the time and although we don’t know, by the fact at the time she was inconsolable at half time, there appears to have been no attempt to apologise at that moment.

These wounds are individual to each person - and I do believe that we all have them.

People can talk about sledging and competition and the like and if was a Champions League final or even a game in the Scottish Premiership where the stakes for victory and defeat are so high I could maybe understand, but it was Rossvale Women vs Huntly women. A game between two amateur clubs. Who is stronger - those who say it’s “just part of the game” or those who risk fines and forfeits and negative comments online to challenge this behaviour?

We have one openly gay player in the Scottish league system. I believe the first we’ve had. After the incorrect rumours about my sexuality, I’m in the odd position of having been on the wrong end of a lot of homophobia whilst also being straight and I wonder how much “dressing room banter” either stops people from coming out or makes men’s football an environment where someone who is gay may not choose to be a part of. There doesn’t seem to be the same issue in the women’s game, or at least not to the same extent.

Nobody is saying that you can’t make a joke. Nobody is saying you can’t rib someone. Nobody is even saying anything is off limits. It’s as case of “if you cause upset or offence then it’s maybe good to not continue down that path”.

The good thing is I see a sea change in this generation. Greta Thunberg a beacon in terms of this. They’re a generation not frightened to challenge norms or convention, not afraid to stand up for others or for themselves, but also not afraid to show vulnerability. They’re not afraid to express themselves or to live their lives as they are. The generation coming through now fill me with hope.

Seeing them called woke and a snowflake generation and more makes me wonder - who is really the strong and who are really snowflakes who melt under the slightest scrutiny?

Sorry if this was very long and quite personal - I genuinely think a debate about what strength of character is might be good but also I felt last night was left unresolved.

An excellent post. Nothing really needs added to that .
I don’t think I am disagreeing with you when I say the stakes don’t justify anything either.

[Northernhibee]

Hmm. Andrew Tate has 9.9 million followers on X (formerly known as Twitter).

Yeah, that kind of terrifies me. Watched a documentary and school teachers being told “your body my choice” and “what colour’s your Bugatti”.

The issue with him is that what he’s offering is in many ways the average acne and puberty hit teen boys dream. Sports cars, power, and women. I know back then I wanted a Ferrari whereas now I love nothing more than a big comfy Volvo estate.

It’s when a boy doesn’t grow up as an adult when you get real issues.

[Jay]

Hmm. Andrew Tate has 9.9 million followers on X (formerly known as Twitter).

And over 8 billion people don't follow him :greengrin.

[Stairway 2 7]

Hmm. Andrew Tate has 9.9 million followers on X (formerly known as Twitter).

The rise of the right in Europe has been massively boosted by young working class males. Not just Europe, Trump dominated the young male group and of all ethnicities, an alienated group fuelled mostly on anti woke. As if Trump or Farage care about poor young men. I think it'll grow rather than fall in the next decade

[Northernhibee]

The rise of the right in Europe has been massively boosted by young working class males. Not just Europe, Trump dominated the young male group and of all ethnicities, an alienated group fuelled mostly on anti woke. As if Trump or Farage care about poor young men. I think it'll grow rather than fall in the next decade

For me a large part of that comes down to the herd mentality. If you get enough young men together and give them a common cause and a “pack” if you will, they will fear stepping out of line and becoming an outcast.

I’ve said it before on another thread but it’s why I’m quite uncomfortable with the “ultras” scene that has swept through football. A large amount of young men with a common cause, a leader, anonymity through balaclavas and face coverings and a uniform and you essentially have all the ingredients to radicalise someone.

It’s quite easy to change your behaviour to match those around you, which in turn generally attracts more people like that into your circle of friends too. I was pretty awkward and nervous about big social gatherings at Uni and used to get very drunk as a coping mechanism to become less inhibited. This in turn meant I met more people who were into that too, and I never really grew out of that until my mid thirties. Got blazing drunk at an event I was attending with my partner (who is quite quiet and very introverted) and realised what a tit I looked like the next day.

Being a part of a big crew of people with a very strong character and image if you will can change who you are, and in turn probably changes what doors open for you.

Going back to the Huntly game, I hope incidents like the one reported don’t become the norm in the women’s game as it would likely exclude a lot of young girls from playing, or it would add pressure on them to become something they’re not.

And this isn’t me saying “don’t go out and get drunk” - it’s a free country. I will talk about how positive an experience giving up alcohol has been for me as is my right, but I’d never look down on someone for enjoying a drink.

[superfurryhibby]

I just love that the future generations are gonna do better than us but we played small parts in that education.

Not sure what you're really saying, but I despair at the lack of left leaning anti-establishment radicalism amongst younger people.

There's those that think the likes of trans rights is the ultimate in edgy, whilst ignoring the massive impact of social and economic disparity. Edinburgh being a great example of what happens when outcomes for people are so determined by where you were educated or which postcode area you grew up in.

The young Edin-bourgeoisie seem to want plaudits for focussing on an issue that affects 0.5% of the population, whilst burying their heads in the sand about the despair and hopelessness many of their less fortunate peers experience in our marginalised communities.

As for sledging at football, virtually no words. As someone who had a long, illustrious amateur football career I'm laughing at the idea that people would refrain from calling each other unkind names. Adrenaline is flowing, it's a hard physical contest and tempers are often frayed. There are limits, but being called a fat ****, ginger prick, and being told you're ***** were just part of the game.

[Northernhibee]

As for sledging at football, virtually no words. As someone who had a long, illustrious amateur football career I'm laughing at the idea that people would refrain from calling each other unkind names. Adrenaline is flowing, it's a hard physical contest and tempers are often frayed. There are limits, but being called a fat ****, ginger prick, and being told you're ***** were just part of the game.

Just part of the game, the way it always was etc. etc. etc.

At a time when the women’s game is trying to grow, surely we want as many people playing as possible?

I know of two players (both young men) who gave up the game because of the people playing - one made a small amount of appearances at league two level, the other at junior level. The former a reasonably promising youngster who was part of quite a big clubs youth academy for a while.

Again, I’m sure there’ll be people telling me that “they’re not cut out for the game then” but to me that misses the point - in any other workplace what they described would be bullying, homophobia, and all sorts. And that’s from within their own dressing room. Rather than just shrugging it off as “it’s what it is”, it’s worth asking why it is what it is and if it warrants looking at. I gave up a football programme for men looking to lose weight (where the scoring system made sustained and consistent weight loss more important than the actual football) and the constant off the ball incidents and verbals made me give it up. When it permeates to that level surely the baw’s burst, no?

I’m still to hear why a young, talented footballer should have to put up with comments that would have someone up in front of HR in any other workplace in order to have a chance of a career in the game. You can either motivate people or put them off their game without calling them a “poof” or having them by the scruff of their next pinned against the dressing room wall or reducing them to an inconsolable state.

I enter running races. I’d never think of calling someone who is around and about me “a fat prick” or “a ginger cunt”. Nor at golf. Or almost any other sport I can think of. Why football, particularly at an amateur level?

[superfurryhibby]

Just part of the game, the way it always was etc. etc. etc.

At a time when the women’s game is trying to grow, surely we want as many people playing as possible?

I know of two players (both young men) who gave up the game because of the people playing - one made a small amount of appearances at league two level, the other at junior level. The former a reasonably promising youngster who was part of quite a big clubs youth academy for a while.

Again, I’m sure there’ll be people telling me that “they’re not cut out for the game then” but to me that misses the point - in any other workplace what they described would be bullying, homophobia, and all sorts. And that’s from within their own dressing room. Rather than just shrugging it off as “it’s what it is”, it’s worth asking why it is what it is and if it warrants looking at. I gave up a football programme for men looking to lose weight (where the scoring system made sustained and consistent weight loss more important than the actual football) and the constant off the ball incidents and verbals made me give it up. When it permeates to that level surely the baw’s burst, no?

I’m still to hear why a young, talented footballer should have to put up with comments that would have someone up in front of HR in any other workplace in order to have a chance of a career in the game. You can either motivate people or put them off their game without calling them a “poof” or having them by the scruff of their next pinned against the dressing room wall or reducing them to an inconsolable state.

I enter running races. I’d never think of calling someone who is around and about me “a fat prick” or “a ginger ****”. Nor at golf. Or almost any other sport I can think of. Why football, particularly at an amateur level?

I never encouraged my younger boys to play football for some of the reasons you mention.

There is a perception that football is played mostly played by working class people. Massive generalisation, but teams I played for were not hotbeds of intellectual thinking (one of my nicknames-the Prof because I had been to university). There was a hyper physical approach to the game I grew up in, I suspect that this is still applicable to amateur football now? Doesn't make it alright, but that means the adrenaline heightened sensibilities of competition lead to things that aren't acceptable in other sports or in the workplace etc.

I suspect it will always be thus.

I played for Edinburgh University for a spell. The attitudes of other teams were a mixture of disdain and extra violence. Younger guys, teens v men contest . I was a bit older and from Edinburgh, a more streetwise footballer too. Every game was a war, the physical and verbal abuse we got was at times awful . Conversely the inter university football was a joy. Tough, but usually played in the right spirit.

[wookie70]

It’s quite easy to change your behaviour to match those around you, which in turn generally attracts more people like that into your circle of friends too. I was pretty awkward and nervous about big social gatherings at Uni and used to get very drunk as a coping mechanism to become less inhibited. This in turn meant I met more people who were into that too, and I never really grew out of that until my mid thirties. Got blazing drunk at an event I was attending with my partner (who is quite quiet and very introverted) and realised what a tit I looked like the next day.

Being a part of a big crew of people with a very strong character and image if you will can change who you are, and in turn probably changes what doors open for you.



I started the thread on the main board. In retrospect this is a far better home for the discussion but it did show how opinions are very black and white on this issue.

Some great posts on this thread and many I can relate to as a victim of verbal abuse when at school. This post rang most bells for me as I started drinking heavily while at school, found a group I felt I fitted and adopted the way of the group. Looking back I said things that I am now truly ashamed of and I think I have grown as a person to the point I will now challenge when I hear and see behavior I was once guilty of myself. I used to beat myself up about it and most of that was not being brave enough to just be who I was and speak out when it was the right thing to do. I simply didn't have the courage to do so and it was a different time 40 years ago.

I've probably consumed the same amount of alcohol in the last 10 years as I did on an average Saturday. I'm more more comfortable being me and I think that comes with age.

Thanks for sharing your story. I do wonder how many in these groups are similar to us and just fell in with a particular crowd. With Social Media and the rise of the likes of Trump and Tate who use hate to profit I fear we are more likely to have individuals hide in groups to avoid the hate being directed at them individually