Clubs top transfers and the decline of Scottish football

[Pagan Hibernia]

Hearts and Hibs biggest transfer buys ever compared to rivals - how the Premiership table would look (scotsman.com) (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts-and-hibs-biggest-transfer-buys-ever-compared-to-rivals-how-the-premiership-table-would-look-4871329)

I normally don't bother much with the Evening News and their clickbait articles, but this one was very revealing I thought.

Looking through that list, what stands out to me (aside from the frankly astonishing fact that Ross County have never spent more than £76k on a player), is that apart from Celtic every club in the top flight had their record transfer decades, or nearly decades ago.

St Mirren's was in 1990; St Johnstone's 1994; Killie, United and Aberdeen all 1995, Motherwell 1999; Rangers 2000 (albeit theirs was more than ten times more than the rest of us); Dundee and Hibs both 2001. Hearts record fee for Steven Pressley was relatively recent in 2006 - still 18 years ago.

This is the complete opposite of what has happened and is happening south of the border and if it doesn't reflect the decline and deterioration of Scottish football, and the neglect shown by the Scottish football authorities then I don't know what does.

[SHODAN]

We received our record fee for Scott Brown (£4.4 million) seventeen years ago. Even today that would be seen as enormous sum of money for us.

Fees are astronomical almost everywhere else and we are being deliberately starved by you-know-who.

[Since452]

I think Boyle's return may have been more than the £700k we paid for DLC

[danhibees1875]

I thought Bowie was up around that figure.

Has the birth of the "undisclosed fee" muddied the waters? I can't recall how easy those figures then were to pull out of the clubs accounts the following year, or how detailed each clubs' accounts are...

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought Bowie was up around that figure.

Has the birth of the "undisclosed fee" muddied the waters? I can't recall how easy those figures then were to pull out of the clubs accounts the following year, or how detailed each clubs' accounts are...

We can only do that on a total basis, over the year.

It's shown as Intangible Assets in the accounts, and is made up of "costs associated with the acquisition of players". For example, in the year to June 23, it was £2.8m.

[superfurryhibby]

I wonder how the trend around paying transfer fees was reversed in recent years? Where did the money come from?

Clubs in Scotland, out with the OF, rarely to never paid money for players. Hibs probably ceased this when we ran into financial difficulties in the later 90's-early 2000's. My impression was no transfer fees paid for years afterwards ?

[wookie70]

I wonder how the trend around paying transfer fees was reversed in recent years? Where did the money come from?

Clubs in Scotland, out with the OF, rarely to never paid money for players. Hibs probably ceased this when we ran into financial difficulties in the later 90's-early 2000's. My impression was no transfer fees paid for years afterwards ?


Was it not all about the TV money and then clubs having spend money they thought was going to be there for years but soon disappeared. That led to having to tighten belts and stop paying out fees. The Rangers don't seem to have any issues and just plod on spending millions more than they have knowing it is the only way they have a hope of competing and the punishment isn't harsh enough to warrant a change of behaviour

[danhibees1875]

We can only do that on a total basis, over the year.

It's shown as Intangible Assets in the accounts, and is made up of "costs associated with the acquisition of players". For example, in the year to June 23, it was £2.8m.

Thanks CWG, so depends how busy we've been and what we know of the other transfers in whether we can work out individual players fees (generally, unlikely especially in recent years with high turnover of players).

:aok:

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think Boyle's return may have been more than the £700k we paid for DLC

Sure Boyle returned for free, technically anyway.

We wrote off a load of money owed to us apparently, but that wouldn’t probably be considered as an outgoing fee from us.

[overdrive]

I think Boyle's return may have been more than the £700k we paid for DLC

I think we effectively wrote off whatever the Saudis were due us for his transfer to them. No idea how much that was, though.

[PHeffernan]

Hearts and Hibs biggest transfer buys ever compared to rivals - how the Premiership table would look (scotsman.com) (https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts-and-hibs-biggest-transfer-buys-ever-compared-to-rivals-how-the-premiership-table-would-look-4871329)

I normally don't bother much with the Evening News and their clickbait articles, but this one was very revealing I thought.

Looking through that list, what stands out to me (aside from the frankly astonishing fact that Ross County have never spent more than £76k on a player), is that apart from Celtic every club in the top flight had their record transfer decades, or nearly decades ago.

St Mirren's was in 1990; St Johnstone's 1994; Killie, United and Aberdeen all 1995, Motherwell 1999; Rangers 2000 (albeit theirs was more than ten times more than the rest of us); Dundee and Hibs both 2001. Hearts record fee for Steven Pressley was relatively recent in 2006 - still 18 years ago.

This is the complete opposite of what has happened and is happening south of the border and if it doesn't reflect the decline and deterioration of Scottish football, and the neglect shown by the Scottish football authorities then I don't know what does.

Your not comparing apples with apples. Down south is a country with 12 times the population of Scotland.
It runs a circus league which is funded by an incredible TV deal selling to a world audience.
In reality it's clubs are now just massive soulless investment hubs with a wee football face and importantly their supporters are now customers who can never get their clubs back.

Bosman and brexit killed any control Scottish clubs had over their talented young and established players. Ben Doak is a great example of the former.
Celtic knew exactly how talented their young player was but were powerless to stop Liverpool chucking a couple of quid at them and taking him away.
This scenario is happening with Scottish clubs every week. Their most talented youngsters are being swept up by English premier league clubs for buttons before we have even seen them. It's naive and lazy to blame the SFA or SPL.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Your not comparing apples with apples. Down south is a country with 12 times the population of Scotland.
It runs a circus league which is funded by an incredible TV deal selling to a world audience.
In reality it's clubs are now just massive soulless investment hubs with a wee football face and importantly their supporters are now customers who can never get their clubs back.

Bosman and brexit killed any control Scottish clubs had over their talented young and established players. Ben Doak is a great example of the former.
Celtic knew exactly how talented their young player was but were powerless to stop Liverpool chucking a couple of quid at them and taking him away.
This scenario is happening with Scottish clubs every week. Their most talented youngsters are being swept up by English premier league clubs for buttons before we have even seen them. It's naive and lazy to blame the SFA or SPL.

and we have so much control right now? Jesus there's several threads on here as we speak bemoaning what has happened to Hibs and our powerlessness in doing anything about it.

you certainly wouldn't be the first to call me lazy though... just ask my boss :greengrin

[PHeffernan]

and we have so much control right now? Jesus there's several threads on here as we speak bemoaning what has happened to Hibs and our powerlessness in doing anything about it.

you certainly wouldn't be the first to call me lazy though... just ask my boss :greengrin

:greengrin didn't mean to be personal. Aimed at all the kneejerkers.

Hibs supporters missed the control boat when too many of them were either not interested or listened to the ponzi scheme screamers, publican, ned etc when the club was available for relative buttons from a benevolent owner. As a result the club had to go down the private invester owner route i.e. folk looking to buy low and sell high.
When I read all the moaning threads on here about the lack of control we have with Hibs I do wonder if the most vociferous moaners are the same people who couldn't see beyond the end of their noses when we had our once in a life time chance to buy the club. I strongly suspect they are.

We were a club in near perfect financial nick with a paid for modern stadium and training centre that plays in our countries top league with over 11,000 through thick and thin supporters, 6,000 regular attenders and another 5,000 available glory hunters. A club playing in a country with the biggest per capita match attenders in Europe.
Shooty in for Ron Gordon and the club is worth 4 times what he paid for it after no more than a glorified spring clean.

I think Scottish football is great, don't watch the English Premiership and don't subscribe to Sky, Premier Sports etc.
Taken to watching 3rd tier games in England given that's where many of our recruits and those of our rivals are likely to be sourced.

Massive gamechanger opportunity for Hibs on the 31st May when circa 60k a week comes off the club wage bill. Hopefully we spend 40k of that on good recruits and the other 20k would represent a saving of a million quid. So improved players and manager next season, smaller but better squad and better financials.

[Keith_M]

Transfer fees can only be compared if you take inflation into account.

For instance, De la Cruz' fee was 700k in 2001, but that's equivalent to spending roughly 1.5M in 2024

[wookie70]

Transfer fees can only be compared if you take inflation into account.

For instance, De la Cruz' fee was 700k in 2001, but that's equivalent to spending roughly 1.5M in 2024

Football inflation is probably very different to general inflation. It would be interesting to see what our turnover is compared to then as the TV money will likely be less but the hospitality might be more. I wonder what ticket prices are like in terms of real term cost. They are hugely inflated compared to the 70s and 80s but not so sure from that period.

[Alfred E Newman]

Most clubs in Scotland were spending money like water in the 90' and early 2000s, money that they didn't have. It was never going to last.

[Forza Fred]

Would transfer fees not have generally reduced because of the Bosman ruling?

Up until then even if a player still hadn’t agreed a contract his club held on to his registration and demanded a fee from the club he wanted to go to.

[greenlad]

Football inflation is probably very different to general inflation. It would be interesting to see what our turnover is compared to then as the TV money will likely be less but the hospitality might be more. I wonder what ticket prices are like in terms of real term cost. They are hugely inflated compared to the 70s and 80s but not so sure from that period.

Scottish top flight ticket prices rose hugely during the late 90s into the early 00s and have been much flatter since.

The first real surge was probably around 1995 or so as most teams completed their costly post Taylor-report rebuilds as the grounds went all-seater. No more cheap terraces and it felt like all seats were priced closer to "stand" prices. Only a small number of the Premiership regulars like Hibs and Hearts have actually gone onto properly finish their stadiums,most of the other regulars Aberdeen, Dundee United, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, very little has changed in 30 years!

Generally until around 1998 or so it was £15-18 for just about every Premiership game. Hibs spent one year down in 98-99 and when they came back it was noticeably more expensive across the board at around £20 average. Although credit to likes of Motherwell and Kilmarnock who've always been a few pounds cheaper, with good family deals.

Hearts fans boycotted the 6-2 derby in 2000-01 supposedly in protest at the Category A ticket price of £24. By 2007 they were charging Hibs over £30 in some sections of Tynecastle but it's not gone much beyond since then.

You can argue about value for money but it's taken until now, basically a quarter of a century later for most non Cat A games to be hitting around £30, imagine this is a rise likely well below inflation for that period although would suspect financial pressures on Edinburgh working class (Hibs and Hearts main supporter bases) are more challenging than ever.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Scottish top flight ticket prices rose hugely during the late 90s into the early 00s and have been much flatter since.

The first real surge was probably around 1995 or so as most teams completed their costly post Taylor-report rebuilds as the grounds went all-seater. No more cheap terraces and it felt like all seats were priced closer to "stand" prices. Only a small number of the Premiership regulars like Hibs and Hearts have actually gone onto properly finish their stadiums,most of the other regulars Aberdeen, Dundee United, Motherwell, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, very little has changed in 30 years!

Generally until around 1998 or so it was £15-18 for just about every Premiership game. Hibs spent one year down in 98-99 and when they came back it was noticeably more expensive across the board at around £20 average. Although credit to likes of Motherwell and Kilmarnock who've always been a few pounds cheaper, with good family deals.

Hearts fans boycotted the 6-2 derby in 2000-01 supposedly in protest at the Category A ticket price of £24. By 2007 they were charging Hibs over £30 in some sections of Tynecastle but it's not gone much beyond since then.

You can argue about value for money but it's taken until now, basically a quarter of a century later for most non Cat A games to be hitting around £30, imagine this is a rise likely well below inflation for that period although would suspect financial pressures on Edinburgh working class (Hibs and Hearts main supporter bases) are more challenging than ever.

I mean, if it was £15-18 up to 1998, was that not still quite expensive? £15-18 in say 1997 is equivalent to £34-40 today

[greenlad]

I mean, if it was £15-18 up to 1998, was that not still quite expensive? £15-18 in say 1997 is equivalent to £34-40 today


Yes, definitely. My point (not well made) was that the first surge in prices was around mid 90s when all-seater stadiums happened, then again around 1999 after the SPL was formed when the clubs were really going for it with player wages. A more gradual increase since then.

I was a kid in the early 90s but remember an adult terracing price for most games being £10 or less?

[HibbyAndy]

Yes, definitely. My point (not well made) was that the first surge in prices was around mid 90s when all-seater stadiums happened, then again around 1999 after the SPL was formed when the clubs were really going for it with player wages. A more gradual increase since then.

I was a kid in the early 90s but remember an adult terracing price for most games being £10 or less?


91-92 i can remember getting in the East for £4.50

[Musselbound]

91-92 i can remember getting in the East for £4.50

Probably right. I'm sure it was £4 for an adult ticket when I started going in 89-90.

[greenpaper55]

:greengrin didn't mean to be personal. Aimed at all the kneejerkers.

Hibs supporters missed the control boat when too many of them were either not interested or listened to the ponzi scheme screamers, publican, ned etc when the club was available for relative buttons from a benevolent owner. As a result the club had to go down the private invester owner route i.e. folk looking to buy low and sell high.
When I read all the moaning threads on here about the lack of control we have with Hibs I do wonder if the most vociferous moaners are the same people who couldn't see beyond the end of their noses when we had our once in a life time chance to buy the club. I strongly suspect they are.

We were a club in near perfect financial nick with a paid for modern stadium and training centre that plays in our countries top league with over 11,000 through thick and thin supporters, 6,000 regular attenders and another 5,000 available glory hunters. A club playing in a country with the biggest per capita match attenders in Europe.
Shooty in for Ron Gordon and the club is worth 4 times what he paid for it after no more than a glorified spring clean.

I have been a glory hunter for over sixty years ! Supporter buy out sounds fantastic until you need some money to buy players so where does that come from the sale of pies ?
I think Scottish football is great, don't watch the English Premiership and don't subscribe to Sky, Premier Sports etc.
Taken to watching 3rd tier games in England given that's where many of our recruits and those of our rivals are likely to be sourced.

Massive gamechanger opportunity for Hibs on the 31st May when circa 60k a week comes off the club wage bill. Hopefully we spend 40k of that on good recruits and the other 20k would represent a saving of a million quid. So improved players and manager next season, smaller but better squad and better financials.

I have been one of those glory hunters for more than sixty years ! Fans buy out sounds good until you need to invest in the team and everyone would have to chip in an extra wedge of cash or is it going to be done on the sale of pies at half time ?

[Lancs Harp]

I would hazard a guess thats not just the Premier league I'd suggest thats the case in most European leagues and their clubs. Its a pretty eye opening stat regarding Scottish Clubs and going in the opposite direction.

[Pretty Boy]

Bosman probably killed clubs like Hibs spending really big transfer fees.

We paid £325K for Andy Goram in 1987 and £200K for Neil Orr in the same year but that was balanced with us selling Gordon Durie for £400K the year before.

Nowadays we'd be terrified of losing a player like Durie for nothing and there is every chance a club in England would wait until they entered the final year of their contract. See John McGinn. That wouldn't have been a concern in 1986. Whilst every transfer never worked out there was always a likelihood you would get something back on a big investment. That just isn't the case today.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Bosman probably killed clubs like Hibs spending really big transfer fees.

We paid £325K for Andy Goram in 1987 and £200K for Neil Orr in the same year but that was balanced with us selling Gordon Durie for £400K the year before.

Nowadays we'd be terrified of losing a player like Durie for nothing and there is every chance a club in England would wait until they entered the final year of their contract. See John McGinn. That wouldn't have been a concern in 1986. Whilst every transfer never worked out there was always a likelihood you would get something back on a big investment. That just isn't the case today.

I can hardly remember pre-Bosman days. What happened when a player reached the end of their contract then and hadn't signed a new one?

[Trinity Hibee]

I can hardly remember pre-Bosman days. What happened when a player reached the end of their contract then and hadn't signed a new one?

Apparently the players club still demanded a fee which had to be paid.

Reading the case of bosman himself, his current club wouldn’t accept the amount being offered and then cut his wages by 70%. So presumably at the end of the contract, if no one met the valuation, they would go onto a monthly rolling thing until someone paid up? All seems odd compared to the setup nowadays

[eastmainsmsh]

Was it 175 thousand for Quick Draw McGraw and a decent fee when we signed Brian Hamilton ?

[Pretty Boy]

I can hardly remember pre-Bosman days. What happened when a player reached the end of their contract then and hadn't signed a new one?

Basically the 'selling' club could demand a fee or stop the player moving. If the club didn't receive a fee that met their valuation the player was trapped.

It was common back in those days for young players to be given a free transfer at the expiration of their contract so they could move on elsewhere rather than it being a given they are free to do so these days (tribunal/development fee cases excepted).

Incidentally Paul Kane was the first UK based player to transfer on a Bosman when he left Aberdeen.

[Hibs4185]

Is vente not our highest? Thought he was close to a million?

[superfurryhibby]

Basically the 'selling' club could demand a fee or stop the player moving. If the club didn't receive a fee that met their valuation the player was trapped.

It was common back in those days for young players to be given a free transfer at the expiration of their contract so they could move on elsewhere rather than it being a given they are free to do so these days (tribunal/development fee cases excepted).

Incidentally Paul Kane was the first UK based player to transfer on a Bosman when he left Aberdeen.

I hate Americanisms, like expiration......on the expiry of their contracts will do for people from Britain :wink:

That aside, footballers were treated like cattle by clubs. You only have to look to Hibs to see how owners viewed players. Lawrie Reilly, embarked upon a career as a painter and decorator, with a bit of ghost written journalism, when Harry Swan declined modest wage rise for one of the world's top strikers. Joe Baker was transferred to Torino without a say, when he was requesting another fiver /week.

Pat Stanton describes the end of his Hibs career diplomatically, but it's clear he wasn't impressed by the way it was handled. No discussion other than a phone handed to him with Jock Stein on the other end. Pick up your boots on the way out of the door and no thanks for the 12 years service. Even Gordon Smith was declined surgery from Hibs and released, our greatest ever player paid for it himself and went on to win two more league titles and a league cup afterwards.

A great example of footballers from yesteryear was made by Gary Imlach in his book, about his Dad, My Father and Other Working-Class Football Heroes. They were treated like cattle. AS well as campaigning for players to be given caps for representing the country, he also described his Dad being bought and sold across his career.

[Keith_M]

In the 80s, Dundee Utd used to give young players 5 year contracts, with the option of another 5 years when the first one ran out. Unfortunately, the option was for United to renew the contract, not the player.

United could then decide to renew at a wage decided by them... meaning experienced players could theoretically be forced to resign after five years at the same ****ty wage as when they first signed as a teenager.

It mostly didn't happen like that but the wages players were given on their contract renewal were nowhere near as good as they could have got at other clubs. The only way they could leave the club was if United decided they wanted a transfer fee.