Hibs Board, connection to supporters and fan ownership

[stalbanshibby]

When the **** hits the fan, as it is at the minute, the natives get restless. I started wondering about fan ownership of Hibs, and HSL in general - especially after they put out an invite to their members after the Board statement last Monday.

Well it seems as though any prospect of fan ownership, or even holding a decent percentage of shares is dead in the water: during the excitement of Black Knights investment, the Hibs Board needed to change Hibs Articles of Association/ Constitution, and HSL was frozen out. See article below from Hibs Observer:

https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/news/24147367.will-tonights-agm-signal-start-new-era-hibs/

Ben was instrumental in selling this to us at the time, usual smoke and mirrors press quips, and I suspect we were all rubbing our hands together at the thought of Black Knights, Foley and 6m quid. HSLs shareholding got diluted from nearly 20% to its current level of 7% over a couple of stages, but more alarmingly the Board voted themselves to take complete control of all future shares and exclude ordinary members from buying more. It effectively made HSL a dead duck - almost like a protest group rather than a serious shareholder: their original and admiral ambition was to own 25% for US and there's now no prospect of that ever happening.

Alarmingly (see the article) the Board treated HSL with utter contempt during the lead in to the AGM vote apparently refusing to meet with them to discuss concerns, saying 'well they can ask questions at the AGM'' (Ben again). We all know what its like though - you want clarification'/ have concerns about a meeting - no answers before the AGM itself and these would be bound to get lost in what I'm sure was an excited atmosphere in the meeting - HSL would just be seen as party poopers when in fact their concerns were entirely legitimate. All this was rather lost on me at the time, although I hold 12.5K shares. I'm in the process of transferring them to HSL for what its worth.

It also goes some way to explaining the Board's apparent contempt for the fanbase: they seem to barely give a ****, and have no interest in any transparency. They hold all the cards, all the power, and all we are is a cash cow and our loyalty and hopes for the club are just something to be exploited financially. And that is now in Hibs constitution.

And what's even worse is that in some ways we allowed them to do it, although it's difficult to see how it could have been stopped.

We are far far away from the halcyon days of Leann and her reaching out to us. I think for me that's just sunk in. Hibs are a completely different animal and we're somewhat at the mercy of these useless *******s. All we can do is vote with our feet, but of course that would mean seeing Hibs sink even lower. So, depending on how you view things, you could see this as brilliant business leadership, or if you're like me, as being screwed over.

[Jack]

Shareholders, supporters and fans have been ignored from the moment Ron Gordon walked through the door.

[CentreLine]

When the **** hits the fan, as it is at the minute, the natives get restless. I started wondering about fan ownership of Hibs, and HSL in general - especially after they put out an invite to their members after the Board statement last Monday.

Well it seems as though any prospect of fan ownership, or even holding a decent percentage of shares is dead in the water: during the excitement of Black Knights investment, the Hibs Board needed to change Hibs Articles of Association/ Constitution, and HSL was frozen out. See article below from Hibs Observer:

https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/news/24147367.will-tonights-agm-signal-start-new-era-hibs/

Ben was instrumental in selling this to us at the time, usual smoke and mirrors press quips, and I suspect we were all rubbing our hands together at the thought of Black Knights, Foley and 6m quid. HSLs shareholding got diluted from nearly 20% to its current level of 7% over a couple of stages, but more alarmingly the Board voted themselves to take complete control of all future shares and exclude ordinary members from buying more. It effectively made HSL a dead duck - almost like a protest group rather than a serious shareholder: their original and admiral ambition was to own 25% for US.

Alarmingly (see the article) the Board treated HSL with utter contempt during the lead in to the vote apparently refusing to meet with them to discuss concerns, saying 'well they can ask questions at the AGM'' (Ben again). We all know what its like though - you want clarification'/ have concerns about a meeting - no answers before the AGM itself and these would be bound to get lost in what I'm sure was an excited atmosphere in the AGM itself - they'd just be seen as party poopers when in fact their concerns were entirely legitimate.

It also goes some way to explaining the Board's apparent contempt for the fanbase: they seem to barely give a ****, and have no interest in any transparency. They hold all the cards, all the power, and all we are is a cash cow and our loyalty and hopes for the club are just something to be exploited financially.

And what's even worse is that in some ways is we allowed them to do it, although it's difficult to see how it could have been stopped.

We are far far away from the halcyon days of Leann and her reaching out to us. I think for me that's just sunk in. We're somewhat at the mercy of these useless *******s.

There were posters warning of this as the lead up to that EGM but the support for it was overwhelming. HSL has suffered, all along, from two things. Fristly the minority but very noisy “Ponzi Scheme” cryers that undermined the drive to achieve that essential 25% share. Had HSL achieved that relatively simple aim things would likely be very different now as that 25% guaranteed HSL, therefore the supporters, a place on the board.

Then, after Ron Gordon took control, the utter contempt that the club board showed for what was the second largest shareholder in the club. HSL were frozen out and seemed to be viewed only as a convenient cash cow.

Following the EGM and the and the changes you mention to the club constitution, things seemed to.defrost a little but it does seem that it is only BK that actually engages, No other board member seems to have given HSL the time of day, despite its still being the third largest shareholder in the club.


Personally, I don’t think embarrassing protests are the answer but I do believe there has never been a more important time for supporters to join HSL and allow it to approach the club from a position of representing a united support. Leave it any longer and it really could be too late.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Ron killed the idea of HSL straight away

[stalbanshibby]

Personally, I don’t think embarrassing protests are the answer but I do believe there has never been a more important time for supporters to join HSL and allow it to approach the club from a position of representing a united support. Leave it any longer and it really could be too late.

I agree. I'm also sort of wondering why HSL aren't doing more to gain support of the fanbase. I'm an HSL member and I've never been to a meeting, but they seem really passive (although you could say that about me too since I've never been to a meeting).

This has a ring of union membership (HSL being the union) negotiating with over bearing management/ Board. Currently the union has been well and truly screwed over. I'm not sure what the way back is because the Board can vote to further dilute HSLs shareholding anytime they like. So anytime HSL get anywhere near having a required shareholding percentage that means any sort of power broking, the Board can pull the rug from beneath their feet.

[stalbanshibby]

Ron killed the idea of HSL straight away

So it seems. So their proposed Board meeting last Thursday which got cancelled due to Board member's sickness: well it all makes sense now. HSL (who as far as I'm concerned represent us supporters) are just an annoyance to the Board, and now they can legitimately in a Hibs constitution sense make them go away, even though that morally and ethically stinks.

Maybe I'm just a wee bit late to the party here. All this was lost on me until now.

[easty]

I’ve never been in the slightest bit interested in HSL or fan ownership. Hearts have it, and bring in a load more money than we do. How’s that working for them?

Things are going badly just now, and the people in charge are making poor appointments and decisions, that can happen under fan ownership tae.

The Gordon’s aren’t here rinsing us and ripping out all our money while we struggle. If we fail they’re no making a thing, unless I’m missing something? There’s been plenty investment into this squad, it’s just been done badly.

I’d much rather the Black Knights were in charge.

[stalbanshibby]

I’ve never been in the slightest bit interested in HSL or fan ownership. Hearts have it, and bring in a load more money than we do. How’s that working for them?

Things are going badly just now, and the people in charge are making poor appointments and decisions, that can happen under fan ownership tae.

The Gordon’s aren’t here rinsing us and ripping out all our money while we struggle. If we fail they’re no making a thing, unless I’m missing something? There’s been plenty investment into this squad, it’s just been done badly.

I’d much rather the Black Knights were in charge.

For me it's about engagement and feeling part of the club, not just about current success (or not). If I'm engaged I'd be more inclined to support the club through thick and thin and I've thrown money at Hibs over the years - buying season tickets when I'd very little prospect of being able to attend (I lived down south for ages), bought shares etc etc - just to support the club I've loved since I was a kid. Hibs have been in my blood all my life. This bunch are ripping the heart and soul out of it, and me.

[blackpoolhibs]

Ron killed the idea of HSL straight away

Exactly, so he could get his dictatorship up and running straight away.

[easty]

For me it's about engagement and feeling part of the club, not just about current success (or not). If I'm engaged I'd be more inclined to support the club through thick and thin and I've thrown money at Hibs over the years - buying season tickets when I'd very little prospect of being able to attend (I lived down south for ages), bought shares etc etc - just to support the club I've loved since I was a kid. Hibs have been in my blood all my life. This bunch are ripping the heart and soul out of it, and me.

I cannae buy into the “engagement” or “connection” things being folks genuine reasons for concern.

If Hibs are doing well nobody would be taking about the engagement.

[CentreLine]

Ron killed the idea of HSL straight away


But it’s not dead. It already has a little influence but if our support is looking for something to rally behind then, in the absence a a board member going rogue, I’d suggest HSL ticks all the boxes.

[CentreLine]

I cannae buy into the “engagement” or “connection” things being folks genuine reasons for concern.

If Hibs are doing well nobody would be taking about the engagement.

I believe there may be more things to worry about but engagement is a good start. I’d argue that becoming part of a franchise may happen and may or may not be a good thing but certainly needs scrutiny. Who is going to do that when our, committed Hibs supporting, NED has shown no inclination to engage with the fan base but heavily promoted the sleight of hand matters that the OP outlined.

[stalbanshibby]

I cannae buy into the “engagement” or “connection” things being folks genuine reasons for concern.

If Hibs are doing well nobody would be taking about the engagement.

You're probably right. But they're not doing well. And just because Hearts aren't doing well either doesn't mean that fan ownership is a failed model. I have as much loathing for the Jambos as the next Hibee, but at least their supporters have a place at the top table.

[TrinityHFC]

Hibs fans weren’t interested well before Ron and the Black Knights got involved. HSL didn’t ever help themselves by lacking any compelling proposition.

Anyway, makes no odds. Just another thing to worry about when the football isn’t good enough.

[easty]

You're probably right. But they're not doing well. And just because Hearts aren't doing well either doesn't mean that fan ownership is a failed model. I have as much loathing for the Jambos as the next Hibee, but at least their supporters have a place at the top table.

Hearts model is topped up by a benefactor, massively.

Who do you have in mind for us?

[J-C]

Do we need yet another thread slagging off the board, I think k the majority now know most people's feelings towards them, you could just merge all these threads together.

[CropleyWasGod]

I believe there may be more things to worry about but engagement is a good start. I’d argue that becoming part of a franchise may happen and may or may not be a good thing but certainly needs scrutiny. Who is going to do that when our, committed Hibs supporting, NED has shown no inclination to engage with the fan base but heavily promoted the slighting hand matters that the OP outlined.

Not sure who you mean here.

If you mean Kieran , he hasn't been on the Board for over 3 years.

Or someone else?

[Golden Bear]

There seems to be a concerted effort by a group of supporters to criticise/ridicule the Club at every opportunity.

And as for fan ownership, then they're surely having a laugh.

[DarlingtonHibee]

There's about 10 - 20 hard-core poster's on here, who continually slag off anything they can to do with Hibernian.

Of course, not ONE poster has proposed a different way forward 🙄, like how we're going to find £24-30 million plus to buy the owners out for starters.

[SHODAN]

Get donating to HSL, it's the least we can do now.

[HarpOnHibee]

I cannae buy into the “engagement” or “connection” things being folks genuine reasons for concern.

If Hibs are doing well nobody would be taking about the engagement.

Wouldn't you say that they're both interconnected? If Hibs are doing well, engagement and connection with the club goes up, which in turn improves the relations between the fans and players/manager. If relations are good, that can bolster the motivation of players, leading to even better performances on the pitch.

[easty]

Wouldn't you say that they're both interconnected? If Hibs are doing well, engagement and connection with the club goes up, which in turn improves the relations between the fans and players/manager. If relations are good, that can bolster the motivation of players, leading to even better performances on the pitch.

Nah, I wouldn’t say so.

Hibs can be doing well on the pitch without being connected to the board.

I was a teen at the time, but I dinnae remember anyone talking about the connection with the CEO or owner when we had Sauzee and Latapy and McLeish.

[HarpOnHibee]

There seems to be a concerted effort by a group of supporters to criticise/ridicule the Club at every opportunity.

And as for fan ownership, then they're surely having a laugh.

We're currently pinned to the bottom of the league table. It's hardly a "concerted effort to criticize the club at every opportunity". Fans don't enjoy criticizing the club, but there are legitimate concerns.

[HarpOnHibee]

Nah, I wouldn’t say so.

Hibs can be doing well on the pitch without being connected to the board.

I was a teen at the time, but I dinnae remember anyone talking about the connection with the CEO or owner when we had Sauzee and Latapy and McLeish.

I'm not referring to connection with the board, i'm talking about the connection between the players on the pitch and the fans in the stand which appears to be at an all time low right now. Everything feels very flat at ER these days both on and off the pitch.

[SHODAN]

There seems to be a concerted effort by a group of supporters to criticise/ridicule the Club at every opportunity.

And as for fan ownership, then they're surely having a laugh.

The group of supporters are called "most of the supporters" and the concerted effort is called "the club being consistently ***** for in excess of three years."

[easty]

I'm not referring to connection with the board, i'm talking about the connection between the players on the pitch and the fans in the stand which appears to be at an all time low right now. Everything feels very flat at ER these days both on and off the pitch.

The absolute only thing that’s changing the relationship between the fans and the players is results. Which is what I’ve said is all that matters from the start.

[we are hibs]

Club been busy on here this morning I see

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[easty]

Club been busy on here this morning I see

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Eh?

[Bridge hibs]

Club been busy on here this morning I see

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Care to elaborate ?

[stalbanshibby]

You may have some good points in here, but ......fascist *******s?

Yeah. Fair point. I’ll edit it out. I suppose I can’t help seeing this as the people (supporters) v inscrutable business owners ( the Board) and that the Board have played a blinder in outmanoeuvring and manipulating the support.

I was also conflating with the US ejection and Trump ( who is a fascist imho and congenital liar) and anything to do with America or Americans where they only thing that speaks is money.

Got carried away with myself. Apologies

[HarpOnHibee]

The absolute only thing that’s changing the relationship between the fans and the players is results. Which is what I’ve said is all that matters from the start.

I agree with you on that. But it seems to me that it may be an issue onto itself. Poor results leading to a flat atmosphere which further plays into poor results. When clubs are performing well, the players raise the mood of the fans which in turn leads to the fans raising the mood of the players, resulting in the continuation of good performances and results. The fan/player connection at the club right now is the worst it has been in quite some time which I don't think helps matters at all.

[Brightside]

I cannae buy into the “engagement” or “connection” things being folks genuine reasons for concern.

If Hibs are doing well nobody would be taking about the engagement.

Spot on. It's all getting a bit silly now. We do more community stuff than we ever have. Not sure what other engagement people need from a football club.

[easty]

I agree with you on that. But it seems to me that it may be an issue onto itself. Poor results leading to a flat atmosphere which further plays into poor results. When clubs are performing well, the players raise the mood of the fans which in turn leads to the fans raising the mood of the players, resulting in the continuation of good performances and results. The fan/player connection at the club right now is the worst it has been in quite some time which I don't think helps matters at all.

I agree that the fan/player connection seems to be at its worst.

The way some of our players are spoken about on here, and on social media in general, is ****ing brutal.

I don’t think the fan-player relationship is the reason we’re doing badly though. Lack of experienced management and coaches. Poor set-up, and poor squad balance are the reasons. In my opinion.

[CentreLine]

Not sure who you mean here.

If you mean Kieran , he hasn't been on the Board for over 3 years.

Or someone else?

I absolutely do not mean Kearon, who was always brilliant. Maybe i got title wrong

[HarpOnHibee]

I agree that the fan/player connection seems to be at its worst.

The way some of our players are spoken about on here, and on social media in general, is ****ing brutal.

I don’t think the fan-player relationship is the reason we’re doing badly though. Lack of experienced management and coaches. Poor set-up, and poor squad balance are the reasons. In my opinion.

I agree that these are very much major contributing factors. Everything just seems off at the moment and I don't see any single thing addressing it. Much needs to change.

[CropleyWasGod]

I absolutely do not mean Kearon, who was always brilliant. Maybe i got title wrong

Ok, ta.

Who did you mean?

[CentreLine]

There's about 10 - 20 hard-core poster's on here, who continually slag off anything they can to do with Hibernian.

Of course, not ONE poster has proposed a different way forward 🙄, like how we're going to find £24-30 million plus to buy the owners out for starters.

HSL has been proposed and is a viable way to make progress. It was never the aim of HSL to find millions to get fan ownership, it was simply to get enough ownership to be able to represent supporters at board level for whatever good that might do in moderating the actions of others.

[DarlingtonHibee]

HSL has been proposed and is a viable way to make progress. It was never the aim of HSL to find millions to get fan ownership, it was simply to get enough ownership to be able to represent supporters at board level for whatever good that might do in moderating the actions of others.
100% agree with the post.

[sleeping giant]

Nah, I wouldn’t say so.

Hibs can be doing well on the pitch without being connected to the board.

I was a teen at the time, but I dinnae remember anyone talking about the connection with the CEO or owner when we had Sauzee and Latapy and McLeish.

This all day long.

[CentreLine]

This all day long.

Then you may have missed members of that board’s involvement with HOH and the movement that stopped Mercer. There have been few times in the history of the club when the board were more connected with the support.

[may 21/05/2016]

There's about 10 - 20 hard-core poster's on here, who continually slag off anything they can to do with Hibernian.

Of course, not ONE poster has proposed a different way forward [emoji849], like how we're going to find £24-30 million plus to buy the owners out for starters.Agree

[easty]

Then you may have missed members of that board’s involvement with HOH and the movement that stopped Mercer. There have been few times in the history of the club when the board were more connected with the support.

Sauzee signed for Hibs 9 years later.

Are you saying that once there’s a “connection” to the board, it just lasts forever?

[SHODAN]

Club been busy on here this morning I see

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:tee hee:

[Lago]

Do we need yet another thread slagging off the board, I think k the majority now know most people's feelings towards them, you could just merge all these threads together.
Your right it's been done to death,personally I've absolutely no interest in fan ownership where in the UK is there a successful example ?

[sleeping giant]

Then you may have missed members of that board’s involvement with HOH and the movement that stopped Mercer. There have been few times in the history of the club when the board were more connected with the support.
I didn't miss anything mate. I was there.

[Donegal Hibby]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/football/auckland-fc/auckland-fc-fan-group-threatens-protests-over-owner-bill-foleys-ties-to-donald-trump/ADKWER7NMJBTPCBJYE74TNKBS4/

[007]

Club been busy on here this morning I see

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

Which poster(s) are you referring to?

[hibee-boys]

It’ll be amazing how much any engagement and/or connection between fans/club/players would positively shift if we manage to win a couple games. Yes, football fans are that fickle. Couldn’t give 2 hoots who’s in the boardroom, owns the club or how many players ‘get hibs’.

[nickwhibs]

Your right it's been done to death,personally I've absolutely no interest in fan ownership where in the UK is there a successful example ?

You mean like hearts, St Mirren and Motherwell, who have all been more successful than us in the past few seasons?

I’d 100% be in favour of fan ownership, or at the very least clawing back a bigger percentage of shares from the incompetence of the Gordon’s and co / and money men such as Foley using the club to spread his tentacles further. This is our club so let’s get it back. It was a unique situation previously where Tom Farmer who only helped buy the club to give back to the community

[J-C]

Your right it's been done to death,personally I've absolutely no interest in fan ownership where in the UK is there a successful example ?

Hearts...oh wait!

[J-C]

Some posters talking about no connection with players and fans, we get rid of players with a long connection to the club and bring in a whole bunch of loans and lower than average quality players. This then takes us on a downward spiral, the team ends up near the bottom, we're on our 5 manager in 3 years and we as fans start hating everything about the club. We now have very few if any players we can call legends at the club, Hanlon and Stevenson bombed out too soon and replaced with nobodies, Boyle is a shadow of the player he was and looks like his mind is on semi retirement in Australia, petulant players like Youan who don't want to be here any more and a captain that 80% of fans don't actually like as a player or as captain. Add in a young Gordon who's taken over from his dad and is nowhere near ready to do so, hence massive errors and finally we have his buddy who's good with the commercial business stuff but gets far too involved in other aspects of the club.

[InvertedFullBak]

Some posters talking about no connection with players and fans, we get rid of players with a long connection to the club and bring in a whole bunch of loans and lower than average quality players. This then takes us on a downward spiral, the team ends up near the bottom, we're on our 5 manager in 3 years and we as fans start hating everything about the club. We now have very few if any players we can call legends at the club, Hanlon and Stevenson bombed out too soon and replaced with nobodies, Boyle is a shadow of the player he was and looks like his mind is on semi retirement in Australia, petulant players like Youan who don't want to be here any more and a captain that 80% of fans don't actually like as a player or as captain. Add in a young Gordon who's taken over from his dad and is nowhere near ready to do so, hence massive errors and finally we have his buddy who's good with the commercial business stuff but gets far too involved in other aspects of the club.


A vast majority of what you’re saying is correct. The identity of the club has been destroyed since Ron bought the club and the connection between fans and hierarchy is wider than its ever been but come on you can’t be serious about Hanlon and Stevenson. They were long past their sell by date and even now they’re struggling at Raith.

They were here far too long and probably should’ve been phased out and released about 2/3 seasons before they actually were.

[HarpOnHibee]

Some posters talking about no connection with players and fans, we get rid of players with a long connection to the club and bring in a whole bunch of loans and lower than average quality players. This then takes us on a downward spiral, the team ends up near the bottom, we're on our 5 manager in 3 years and we as fans start hating everything about the club. We now have very few if any players we can call legends at the club, Hanlon and Stevenson bombed out too soon and replaced with nobodies, Boyle is a shadow of the player he was and looks like his mind is on semi retirement in Australia, petulant players like Youan who don't want to be here any more and a captain that 80% of fans don't actually like as a player or as captain. Add in a young Gordon who's taken over from his dad and is nowhere near ready to do so, hence massive errors and finally we have his buddy who's good with the commercial business stuff but gets far too involved in other aspects of the club.

You're not wrong. I'm simply pointing out the overall dire atmosphere at the club. We seem to be the club that players don't want to play for or remain at for very long and until we address the underlining reasons behind that, it won't matter how many players we go through, it'll just be the same thing over and over again.

[Lago]

Hearts...oh wait!
Exactly, don't go there and how much influence do the supporters have ?

[stalbanshibby]

10 years ago. How time makes the past seem rosy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30624431

[matty_f]

10 years ago. How time makes the past seem rosy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30624431

It would have been great if more Hibs fans had got behind HSL and taken us down that route - that was STF's exit strategy really, but the slow uptake on it (for reasons too often discussed on here to be worth going into again) meant he was always going to look at another buyer IMHO.

I don't necessarily think it was Ron Gordon that killed HSL, he was maybe just another nail in the coffin rather than the cause of death.

As for the board being detached from fans, I'm not sure how true that is given the number of Hibs fans on the board.

I'm not bothered about fan ownership, I just want competent ownership. I'm not at all bothered if someone has bought us to make money eventually - the only way they do that is by improving us, and if they do that then they'll go with my best wishes.

I also have no interest in congratulating owners for putting in money to a business they chose to buy and run. That comes with the territory, and they absolutely should be expected to cover the cost of continued poor judgement.

[chippy]

Hearts...oh wait!
Plus Motherwell and Saint Mirren above us in the league

[chippy]

Exactly, don't go there and how much influence do the supporters have ?

Plenty. Can’t be sold unless they agree, can’t sell ground either. The misconception is that fan ownership does not mean fan management/ direction of the club

[stalbanshibby]

Plenty. Can’t be sold unless they agree, can’t sell ground either. The misconception is that fan ownership does not mean fan management/ direction of the club

Why? is this in the Hibs Articles of Association? What makes this true?

[CentreLine]

Sauzee signed for Hibs 9 years later.

Are you saying that once there’s a “connection” to the board, it just lasts forever?

Give it a rest. I’m saying that board members, from the time of HOH were still around in 2000.

[Just_Jimmy]

Shareholders, supporters and fans have been ignored from the moment Ron Gordon walked through the door.Ron Gordon was the worst thing to happen to Hibs.



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[Just Alf]

Why? is this in the Hibs Articles of Association? What makes this true?On the 1st element it's the law... a shareholder with 25.01% ownership can veto things like a majority owner trying (in our case, east mains/the stadium) to sell off assets to give themselves a financial return. That detail was the driving force for anyone you speak too, to put money into HSL for shares and why some small shareholders donated their shares to them.

On the other bit, I don't know anyone who thought it would get to that stage but if HSL were to become the largest shareholder they'd still need to have a management board to actually run the club day to day.

[stalbanshibby]

On the 1st element it's the law... a shareholder with 25.01% ownership can veto things like a majority owner trying (in our case, east mains) to sell off assets to give themselves a financial return. That detail was the driving force for anyone you speak to put money into HSL for shares and why some small shareholders donated their shares to them.

On the other bit, I don't know anyone thought it would get to that stage but if HSL were to become the largest shareholder they'd still need to have a management board to actually run the club day to day.

HSL only have a 7% ownership, and that can be further diluted if the current board see it as expedient. So who are the other 18% that would put the brakes on something like this. Not saying it'll happen, just that I don't see it as being cast iron that it can't.

Oh and btw, I'm being told that the current board have blocked further share transfers to HSL - that would be consistent with the changes to Hibs constitution that were introduced when Black Knights got involved.

You should read this article. It's stark. Any power HSl may have had has been taken away.

https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/news/...-new-era-hibs/ (https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/news/24147367.will-tonights-agm-signal-start-new-era-hibs/)

[CropleyWasGod]

HSL only have a 7% ownership, and that can be further diluted if the current board see it as expedient. So who are the other 18% that would put the brakes on something like this. Not saying it'll happen, just that I don't see it as being cast iron that it can't.

Oh and btw, I'm being told that the current board have blocked further share transfers to HSL - that would be consistent with the changes to Hibs constitution that were introduced when Black Knights got involved.

Those rules were in place before the BK came in. When RG came in, all share transfers had to be ratified by the Board. That part hasn't changed.

[stalbanshibby]

Those rules were in place before the BK came in. When RG came in, all share transfers had to be ratified by the Board. That part hasn't changed.

Ah. Ok. I stand corrected. Fact remains the same though.

[J-C]

A vast majority of what you’re saying is correct. The identity of the club has been destroyed since Ron bought the club and the connection between fans and hierarchy is wider than its ever been but come on you can’t be serious about Hanlon and Stevenson. They were long past their sell by date and even now they’re struggling at Raith.

They were here far too long and probably should’ve been phased out and released about 2/3 seasons before they actually were.

Hanlon and Stevenson were told the club wanted the age of the squad lowered and let them leave, same with ALF, this season we've signed Hoilett and Gayle both well into their 30's, so the management were talking pish last season. I'm not saying Hanlon and Stevenson would've been playing regularly but they are Hibs through and through and something that's missing from the club right now. Do you think, Obita, O'Hora and Ekpitata are any better than both?

[Just Alf]

.
You should read this article. It's stark. Any power HSl may have had has been taken away.

https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/news/...-new-era-hibs/ (https://www.hibsobserver.co.uk/news/24147367.will-tonights-agm-signal-start-new-era-hibs/)

Totally agree, that's my basic point, HSL were trying to reach that 25% target (think they were at 18-19% at one point), but the ponzi guys / 'fan ownership is rubbish' arguments slowed the uptake to a degree where HSL were basically gazumped when Ron Gordon came in .

For clarity I was pleased with what RG was saying etc when he arrived but gutted he put the stop on HSL getting that 25%

[InvertedFullBak]

Hanlon and Stevenson were told the club wanted the age of the squad lowered and let them leave, same with ALF, this season we've signed Hoilett and Gayle both well into their 30's, so the management were talking pish last season. I'm not saying Hanlon and Stevenson would've been playing regularly but they are Hibs through and through and something that's missing from the club right now. Do you think, Obita, O'Hora and Ekpitata are any better than both?

Gayle signing was clearly on the back on Bowie getting his bad injury.


Obita had a bad start to the season but is an upgrade on Stevenson. Everyman and his dug can see that.

After shaky starts both centre half’s are an upgrade on Hanlon. Both players need time to adjust to the pace of the game up here. All players who sign for a Scottish team need at least one season to adapt. How can you say both of those guys who’re part of a mid table bang average Raith side are still good enough to play for Hibs ?

Just because they’re Hibs through and through let’s keep them at the club regardless of ability. Yeh that’s a great logic.

Its up to the manager to install a culture where players buy into Hibs and understand the club from the get go. Drill it into players from day one about Hibs and make it stick.

[CropleyWasGod]

On the 1st element it's the law... a shareholder with 25.01% ownership can veto things like a majority owner trying (in our case, east mains/the stadium) to sell off assets to give themselves a financial return. That detail was the driving force for anyone you speak too, to put money into HSL for shares and why some small shareholders donated their shares to them.

On the other bit, I don't know anyone who thought it would get to that stage but if HSL were to become the largest shareholder they'd still need to have a management board to actually run the club day to day.

Does that need a Special Resolution?

[Just Alf]

Does that need a Special Resolution?Not completely sure to be fair, it's what I was always told.

I was hoping you could confirm/deny that was a fact! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Not completely sure to be fair, it's what I was always told.

I was hoping you could confirm/deny that was a fact! :greengrin

I haven't read the Mem and Arts cover to cover, but it would be unusual if the sale of ER/EM needed a 75% vote. For me, that's a Board decision, and one that the shareholders don't get to vote on.

Winding-up the company (which a sale of ER and EM might be part of, of course) definitely needs a SR, and IMO that's the point of HSL etc. having 25.01%

[CentreLine]

Ah. Ok. I stand corrected. Fact remains the same though.

For the moment. But recent share issue allowed HSL to acquire more shares and no reason to think it can’t happen again. Despite the diluted status HSL are still third largest shareholder. The BK group are second now of course.
Despite that, and no disrespect to him, our fourth largest shareholder had a place at the top table yet HSL, that still represents a significant fan group, do not. Makes no sense to me but it remains the only possible route for fans to have some realistic influence. If you’re not signed up, there has never been a more important time to join HSL.

Maybe someone from HSL directors could confirm where our shares stand at present?!

[Jack]

Perhaps HSL should reach out to the other minor shareholders and be an umbrella group for the wee folk. Still don't think it would be nearly enough legally but as the voice of the union, as someone put it earlier, surely a stronger voice than just HSL on its own.

[CentreLine]

Perhaps HSL should reach out to the other minor shareholders and be an umbrella group for the wee folk. Still don't think it would be nearly enough legally but as the voice of the union, as someone put it earlier, surely a stronger voice than just HSL on its own.

Fair point. Personally I would put the shoe on the other foot. I suspect most are already but if there are any share holders out there that are not members of HSL then this would be the time to get involved if they are able.

[JimBHibees]

Hanlon and Stevenson were told the club wanted the age of the squad lowered and let them leave, same with ALF, this season we've signed Hoilett and Gayle both well into their 30's, so the management were talking pish last season. I'm not saying Hanlon and Stevenson would've been playing regularly but they are Hibs through and through and something that's missing from the club right now. Do you think, Obita, O'Hora and Ekpitata are any better than both?

Obita and Ekpiteta yes

[easty]

Give it a rest. I’m saying that board members, from the time of HOH were still around in 2000.

Give what a rest? Just let you reply to me with a load of irrelevant stuff and say nothing? Nah.

[Jack]

Fair point. Personally I would put the shoe on the other foot. I suspect most are already but if there are any share holders out there that are not members of HSL then this would be the time to get involved if they are able.

I'm sure there are many, like me, who are both shareholders and members of HSL.

Because they will likely only hold their shares for sentimental reasons they would be unlikely even if it was possible to 'transfer' their shares officially to HSL. But an alliance???

I should say that I and a few others tried to resurrect the Hibernian FC Shareholders Association a few years ago at the time of the shares sales. There was little appetite then but things have changed so who knows.

There were all sorts of documents drawn up to make it official and it was recognised by the club. As far as I am aware there is no-one authorised to speak on behalf of the Association - just in case some random pops up claiming to do so!

[Just Alf]

I haven't read the Mem and Arts cover to cover, but it would be unusual if the sale of ER/EM needed a 75% vote. For me, that's a Board decision, and one that the shareholders don't get to vote on.

Winding-up the company (which a sale of ER and EM might be part of, of course) definitely needs a SR, and IMO that's the point of HSL etc. having 25.01%Ah, that makes sense.. :agree:

[Bostonhibby]

I'm sure there are many, like me, who are both shareholders and members of HSL.

Because they will likely only hold their shares for sentimental reasons they would be unlikely even if it was possible to 'transfer' their shares officially to HSL. But an alliance???

I should say that I and a few others tried to resurrect the Hibernian FC Shareholders Association a few years ago at the time of the shares sales. There was little appetite then but things have changed so who knows.

There were all sorts of documents drawn up to make it official and it was recognised by the club. As far as I am aware there is no-one authorised to speak on behalf of the Association - just in case some random pops up claiming to do so!

Reflects my own situation and pretty sure you're understanding is correct.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[CentreLine]

I'm sure there are many, like me, who are both shareholders and members of HSL.

Because they will likely only hold their shares for sentimental reasons they would be unlikely even if it was possible to 'transfer' their shares officially to HSL. But an alliance???

I should say that I and a few others tried to resurrect the Hibernian FC Shareholders Association a few years ago at the time of the shares sales. There was little appetite then but things have changed so who knows.

There were all sorts of documents drawn up to make it official and it was recognised by the club. As far as I am aware there is no-one authorised to speak on behalf of the Association - just in case some random pops up claiming to do so!

Yes, the association died with the Duff and Gray debacle. Best of luck if you do go down that route.
I think someone pointed out previously that a lot of small share holders may have passed on or moved on.

[stalbanshibby]

For the moment. But recent share issue allowed HSL to acquire more shares and no reason to think it can’t happen again. Despite the diluted status HSL are still third largest shareholder. The BK group are second now of course.
Despite that, and no disrespect to him, our fourth largest shareholder had a place at the top table yet HSL, that still represents a significant fan group, do not. Makes no sense to me but it remains the only possible route for fans to have some realistic influence. If you’re not signed up, there has never been a more important time to join HSL.

Maybe someone from HSL directors could confirm where our shares stand at present?!

I have 12.5K shares and got in touch with someone from HSL so I could transfer them over. He told me that share transfers to HSL had been blocked, but he did also say that a transfer hadn't been tested in a while, so 'lets give it a go' sort of thing. First step for me is to contact the club for a share transfer form. So I'll let you know how I get on.

And yes, I bought the shares in the first place because I love Hibs. But if I can put them to some practical use and strengthen an organisation that represents Hibs support I will.

But, as I've said on another thread, I'm a bit baffled about HSL - they seem so passive. There doesn't seem to be any mention of ongoing meetings with the Board on their website, so I'm not sure what they do, who they are (other than the fellow I've been in touch with), what meetings they have with the Board, who they meet or what they talk about!! At times like these, when there's some strong grassroots feeling, I'd have thought that they'd be banging the drum to get supporters onboard, but there's been **** all, other than the offer to submit views over the Board statement. WTF

[Baldy Foghorn]

I have 12.5K shares and got in touch with someone from HSL so I could transfer them over. He told me that share transfers to HSL had been blocked, but he did also say that a transfer hadn't been tested in a while, so 'lets give it a go' sort of thing. First step for me is to contact the club for a share transfer form. So I'll let you know how I get on.

And yes, I bought the shares in the first place because I love Hibs. But if I can put them to some practical use and strengthen an organisation that represents Hibs support I will.

But, as I've said on another thread, I'm a bit baffled about HSL - they seem so passive. There doesn't seem to be any mention of ongoing meetings with the Board on their website, so I'm not sure what they do, who they are (other than the fellow I've been in touch with), what meetings they have with the Board, who they meet or what they talk about!! At times like these, when there's some strong grassroots feeling, I'd have thought that they'd be banging the drum to get supporters onboard, but there's been **** all, other than the offer to submit views over the Board statement. WTF

That's a good post, with a pertinent question regarding your last paragraph

[Daniel 1875]

I have 12.5K shares and got in touch with someone from HSL so I could transfer them over. He told me that share transfers to HSL had been blocked, but he did also say that a transfer hadn't been tested in a while, so 'lets give it a go' sort of thing. First step for me is to contact the club for a share transfer form. So I'll let you know how I get on.

And yes, I bought the shares in the first place because I love Hibs. But if I can put them to some practical use and strengthen an organisation that represents Hibs support I will.

But, as I've said on another thread, I'm a bit baffled about HSL - they seem so passive. There doesn't seem to be any mention of ongoing meetings with the Board on their website, so I'm not sure what they do, who they are (other than the fellow I've been in touch with), what meetings they have with the Board, who they meet or what they talk about!! At times like these, when there's some strong grassroots feeling, I'd have thought that they'd be banging the drum to get supporters onboard, but there's been **** all, other than the offer to submit views over the Board statement. WTF

In regards to your last paragraph - there’s no updates on the website regarding ongoing meetings with the board due to the fact we don’t have ongoing meetings with the club board.

As always we’d be all ears to anyone who would like to support our efforts to spread the word amongst the fanbase and help us increase our membership base.

I actually think we are doing a fair bit of self promotion across the Pioneers initiative, match sponsorship, match day programme sponsorship & features, new website, social media etc but would love to be able to do more.

To be honest, with the current ownership structure at the club it’s a difficult task to incentivise people to commit to a monthly payment - lots of marketing or otherwise. We have been focussed on retaining as many of our regular contributors as possible in the last year or so - and it seems that things like the Pioneers draws have helped with that.

It’d be great to get back to a place where we are seeing membership numbers rise month to month. The more fans we can get on board ultimately the more we can do with and for the club in the way of sponsorships and the likes, and of course the more prepared we can be in the event another share issue comes along that we are allowed/invited to take part in.

[CentreLine]

I have 12.5K shares and got in touch with someone from HSL so I could transfer them over. He told me that share transfers to HSL had been blocked, but he did also say that a transfer hadn't been tested in a while, so 'lets give it a go' sort of thing. First step for me is to contact the club for a share transfer form. So I'll let you know how I get on.

And yes, I bought the shares in the first place because I love Hibs. But if I can put them to some practical use and strengthen an organisation that represents Hibs support I will.

But, as I've said on another thread, I'm a bit baffled about HSL - they seem so passive. There doesn't seem to be any mention of ongoing meetings with the Board on their website, so I'm not sure what they do, who they are (other than the fellow I've been in touch with), what meetings they have with the Board, who they meet or what they talk about!! At times like these, when there's some strong grassroots feeling, I'd have thought that they'd be banging the drum to get supporters onboard, but there's been **** all, other than the offer to submit views over the Board statement. WTF

I’ll be interested to know how you get on.

A couple of observations I would make though:

The transfer of shares to HSL was more significant when HSL (on behalf of us members) was closing on that crucial 25%+ that would have give it real clout. We small shareholders hold a collective tiny percentage share in the club. I’m
Not sure a transfer, after that dilution of shareholding, will currently make any difference.
As small shareholders we do still have the entitlement to attend the club AGM or send a proxy on our behalf. If you are successful, I suggest that you consider holding on to at least some of your shares so as not to lose that option.
And, of course, it is nice having that piece of paper.

Membership of HSL allows your membership donations to go to purchase of shares or to be held for that purpose. Current shares are held by HSL, not us as members. Within the confines of the constitution, the HSL directors gain a mandate, at each AGM/EGM, on how they should best represent the membership and the use of those shares/funds.

[stalbanshibby]

In regards to your last paragraph - there’s no updates on the website regarding ongoing meetings with the board due to the fact we don’t have ongoing meetings with the club board.

As always we’d be all ears to anyone who would like to support our efforts to spread the word amongst the fanbase and help us increase our membership base.

I actually think we are doing a fair bit of self promotion across the Pioneers initiative, match sponsorship, match day programme sponsorship & features, new website, social media etc but would love to be able to do more.

To be honest, with the current ownership structure at the club it’s a difficult task to incentivise people to commit to a monthly payment - lots of marketing or otherwise. We have been focussed on retaining as many of our regular contributors as possible in the last year or so - and it seems that things like the Pioneers draws have helped with that.

It’d be great to get back to a place where we are seeing membership numbers rise month to month. The more fans we can get on board ultimately the more we can do with and for the club in the way of sponsorships and the likes, and of course the more prepared we can be in the event another share issue comes along that we are allowed/invited to take part in.

Hi Daniel. Thanks for your response. I get what you're saying - it seems to me as though HSL is between a rock and a hard place, but can i suggest that you shout your presence out loud and clear on here - i.e. start a thread!! Bang the HSL drum!! This is a prime time for you - when there's discontent.

I have direct communication with you over the share transfer so we could also talk about any further involvement offline.

[stalbanshibby]

Not sure a transfer, after that dilution of shareholding, will currently make any difference.


Thanks for the advice.

I'm not expecting it to make any difference at all but it's the principle of the thing, and if it's a test case then I'll be interested to see how it plays out too. I can't stand by and watch a bunch of American capitalists (to be fair to them - they know no other way), wreak any more havoc on my club than they have already. I know it's a drop in the ocean, but what also astounds me is the lack of any assertive grassroots organisation within the Hibs support. HSL are the closest thing, it seems, and they don't seem that assertive although someone from HSL has gone some way to explain that. It does feel to me like union v management - where the union is the Hibs support and management is the Hibs Board, and I can't help think that the more members and clout the union has the stronger it is.

[CentreLine]

Thanks for the advice.

I'm not expecting it to make any difference at all but it's the principle of the thing, and if it's a test case then I'll be interested to see how it plays out too. I can't stand by and watch a bunch of American capitalists (to be fair to them - they know no other way), wreak any more havoc on my club than they have already. I know it's a drop in the ocean, but what also astounds me is the lack of any assertive grassroots organisation within the Hibs support. HSL are the closest thing, it seems, and they don't seem that assertive although someone from HSL has gone some way to explain that. It does feel to me like union v management - where the union is the Hibs support and management is the Hibs Board, and I can't help think that the more members and clout the union has the stronger it is.

Totally get your motives and definitely not wishing to discourage you in any way. Now we are in danger of someone suggesting we get a room 😂 so let’s end this private conversation in this amicable note. Very best to ya

[Pagan Hibernia]

10 years ago. How time makes the past seem rosy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/30624431

Looking back, it was a massive opportunity squandered.

There's many reasons for it and they have been discussed to death on here over the years, but it really is such a shame.

I refuse to believe that a qualified competent board running things on behalf of supporters would have done any worse than this lot have over the past 5 years.

[Smartie]

Ron Gordon was the worst thing to happen to Hibs.



Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

I’ll see your Ron Gordon and raise you a David Rowland.

[ancient hibee]

I have 12.5K shares and got in touch with someone from HSL so I could transfer them over. He told me that share transfers to HSL had been blocked, but he did also say that a transfer hadn't been tested in a while, so 'lets give it a go' sort of thing. First step for me is to contact the club for a share transfer form. So I'll let you know how I get on.

And yes, I bought the shares in the first place because I love Hibs. But if I can put them to some practical use and strengthen an organisation that represents Hibs support I will.

But, as I've said on another thread, I'm a bit baffled about HSL - they seem so passive. There doesn't seem to be any mention of ongoing meetings with the Board on their website, so I'm not sure what they do, who they are (other than the fellow I've been in touch with), what meetings they have with the Board, who they meet or what they talk about!! At times like these, when there's some strong grassroots feeling, I'd have thought that they'd be banging the drum to get supporters onboard, but there's been **** all, other than the offer to submit views over the Board statement. WTF

Your description of HSL as an organisation that you know little about and the fact that you don’t think they’re causing a stir makes me wonder why you would want to give them your shares.

[chippy]

Why? is this in the Hibs Articles of Association? What makes this true?

Im referring to fan owned clubs, not Hibs

[stalbanshibby]

Your description of HSL as an organisation that you know little about and the fact that you don’t think they’re causing a stir makes me wonder why you would want to give them your shares.

And there's the issue and this is a fair point.

I'd like to know more about HSL - maybe as a result of me being a keyboard warrior these last couple of days I'll go along to a meeting? If you read the Hibs Observer article at the top of this thread you'll see that they've been somewhat shafted by the dilution of shares, and that can continue - in fact it's now easier for the current Board to do that again because Hibs Articles have been changed. That said, there's no other organisation out there that I can see that has their aspiration, so it's a logical place for me to start inquiry. HSL don't seem militant at all, and according to their secretary the club don't engage with them. I'm a bit shocked at this.

I know other people have said that there are Hibs Supporters on the Board (Leslie Robb's name has been mentioned) and Ben has said (see article) because of that they (the Board) don't need to engage with HSL. So is there a route to the Board from HSL through Leslie Robb?? Or are HSL really that toothless? I just don't know, but what it does seem like is there is a bunch of wealthy people on the Board, waving their dicks around so to speak, and the ordinary Hibs punter (of which I'm one) has no voice at all, except maybe if one of said wealthy people's views happen to align with mine. Who knows whether that's the case??

[blackpoolhibs]

The absolute only thing that’s changing the relationship between the fans and the players is results. Which is what I’ve said is all that matters from the start.

When you get a new owner who rips up the process that was in place which had us reaching semi's and finals MOST seasons, Ron also sacked people who were doing a great job behind the scenes for a pittance.

FFS he even slated our club motto.

Then puts his son in as head of recruitment which results in these players you talk about giving us the results you say is all that matters.

This board have managed to take a £6m investment in and the promise of more and make our club a shambles.

Players come and go, owners stay a lot longer, this relationship with our owners and board has never in my lifetime been worse, and I'm coming up 65 in January.

[J-C]

Farmer wanted Hibs fans to buy him out but we got nowhere near the 51% needed, hence why he sold up. Can you imagine the bickering and arguing at board meetings.

[CentreLine]

Farmer wanted Hibs fans to buy him out but we got nowhere near the 51% needed, hence why he sold up. Can you imagine the bickering and arguing at board meetings.

Yes, definitely not a fan of fan ownership. Equally definite that I am a fan of fan involvement. The 25.01% that we (I say “we” as a member of HSL) aspired to would have achieved that influence without ownership. That boat has sailed for the moment but is not gone forever.

[stalbanshibby]

Farmer wanted Hibs fans to buy him out but we got nowhere near the 51% needed, hence why he sold up. Can you imagine the bickering and arguing at board meetings.

Are you the Judean Peoples Front?

**** Off!!! We're the Peoples Front of Judea!!!

It's a sad story and one that passed me by a bit at the time, although I remember joining HSL when it was formed: STF offered supporters a chance to have meaningful influence within the club, and the opportunity was missed. So in some ways then, we only have ourselves to blame, for the current ****-show. We may have been crap at it (running the club), I guess we'll now never know, but it would have been our crap.

All we can now do is bitch and moan. What a sad state of affairs.

[Bostonhibby]

Yes, definitely not a fan of fan ownership. Equally definite that I am a fan of fan involvement. The 25.01% that we (I say “we” as a member of HSL) aspired to would have achieved that influence without ownership. That boat has sailed for the moment but is not gone forever.The 25.01% was the only reason I and family were in, that boats sailed and it's not on HSL. Their sole reason for existing was always clear, a vehicle to buy and hold shares for those who were interested.

The first holding that translated to something was 25.01%, pushing on from that would have been another bonus and who knows where it might have went and what issues those who were signed up would have to deal with.



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[easty]

When you get a new owner who rips up the process that was in place which had us reaching semi's and finals MOST seasons, Ron also sacked people who were doing a great job behind the scenes for a pittance.

FFS he even slated our club motto.

Then puts his son in as head of recruitment which results in these players you talk about giving us the results you say is all that matters.

This board have managed to take a £6m investment in and the promise of more and make our club a shambles.

Players come and go, owners stay a lot longer, this relationship with our owners and board has never in my lifetime been worse, and I'm coming up 65 in January.

He could’ve done all those things but put McInnes in charge when we appointed Maloney/Johnson, and despite the back room staff changes, motto, recruitment, etc…we’d be a better team on the park and this kind of thread would never have appeared.

[stalbanshibby]

He could’ve done all those things but put McInnes in charge when we appointed Maloney/Johnson, and despite the back room staff changes, motto, recruitment, etc…we’d be a better team on the park and this kind of thread would never have appeared.

Maybe you're right. Maybe not. Your mantra seems to be if results are good, fans are happy, so no discontent, and no wish to have a say in how the club is run. IMHO that's a bit simplistic. However maybe that's the case - history seems to back that up (HSL only ever got 20% shareholding). And maybe the Gordon's don't want a strong manager who knows how to get the job done, because then they wouldn't have a plaything. Who ****ing knows?

[Pagan Hibernia]

Farmer wanted Hibs fans to buy him out but we got nowhere near the 51% needed, hence why he sold up. Can you imagine the bickering and arguing at board meetings.

no, not really. The board would have had professionals on it, not a load of people off Hibs.net.

[stalbanshibby]

no, not really. The board would have had professionals on it, not a load of people off Hibs.net.

But there also would have been communication down the way to the supporters - i.e. some sort of transparency and accountability, which seems sadly lacking at the minute.

[Just_Jimmy]

He could’ve done all those things but put McInnes in charge when we appointed Maloney/Johnson, and despite the back room staff changes, motto, recruitment, etc…we’d be a better team on the park and this kind of thread would never have appeared.So the only thing wrong at Hibs is the manager?

Sack David Gray and appoint Mcinnes and everyone will forget how ***** the club is?

Great, why don't they crack on?

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[easty]

Maybe you're right. Maybe not. Your mantra seems to be if results are good, fans are happy, so no discontent, and no wish to have a say in how the club is run. IMHO that's a bit simplistic. However maybe that's the case - history seems to back that up (HSL only ever got 20% shareholding). And maybe the Gordon's don't want a strong manager who knows how to get the job done, because then they wouldn't have a plaything. Who ****ing knows?

I'd go further and say it's not a mantra, it's the just the way things are. It sounds simplistic because it is. If we win the next 4 games (obviously that's not going to happen - but if it did), there would be zero threads about protesting the next week. Ben Kensall would still be in his job, Lewis Miller would still be falling to the ground everytime a gust of wind hit him too hard, Myko would still be missing chances, and we'd still have a midfield devoid of attacking intent....but we'd be winning, and people would accept that.

The Gordons want Hibs to be successful, it doesn't benefit them for it to be any other way. They're making big mistakes in appointments, but they're just that - mistakes - they're not deliberately ****ing us over.

[.Sean.]

Looking back, it was a massive opportunity squandered.

There's many reasons for it and they have been discussed to death on here over the years, but it really is such a shame.

I refuse to believe that a qualified competent board running things on behalf of supporters would have done any worse than this lot have over the past 5 years.
Mad that 2.5 million would’ve got 51% of the club at the time

[One Day Soon]

He could’ve done all those things but put McInnes in charge when we appointed Maloney/Johnson, and despite the back room staff changes, motto, recruitment, etc…we’d be a better team on the park and this kind of thread would never have appeared.

However we haven't had a successful team on the park for a very long time and instead this kind of thread has appeared - and the cat is now out of the bag on a number of issues that it may well not otherwise have been. No going back on that.

Kensell's salary, the role and responsibility of the CEO for delivering success across all of the club, questions over the owners and their involvement/interference in day to day management of the football side, the relationship with the support, the role of the support and share ownership, the chumocracy at the club, delivery or otherwise of the Black Knights partnership, the questions over the very substantial amount of capital recently brought into the club and its failure to materialise/deliver in the transfer window.

History is always, always instructive and I am delighted that we have at least some people asking questions now that they weren't before. Perhaps if that had happened a lot earlier in the Duff and Gray era we wouldn't have gotten into such difficulty then. Hopefully transparency, questioning and some degree of accountability will serve us well now and in the future.

[One Day Soon]

I'd go further and say it's not a mantra, it's the just the way things are. It sounds simplistic because it is. If we win the next 4 games (obviously that's not going to happen - but if it did), there would be zero threads about protesting the next week. Ben Kensall would still be in his job, Lewis Miller would still be falling to the ground everytime a gust of wind hit him too hard, Myko would still be missing chances, and we'd still have a midfield devoid of attacking intent....but we'd be winning, and people would accept that.

The Gordons want Hibs to be successful, it doesn't benefit them for it to be any other way. They're making big mistakes in appointments, but they're just that - mistakes - they're not deliberately ****ing us over.

It doesn't have to be deliberate, it could just be sheer incompetence. The net effect is the same.

[easty]

So the only thing wrong at Hibs is the manager?

Sack David Gray and appoint Mcinnes and everyone will forget how ***** the club is?

Great, why don't they crack on?

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

No, that's not even close to what I'm saying.

There's loads wrong. Manager, coaches, recruitment, current players, DoF. I've never claimed it was just the manager.

My point is that a better manager, who got us better results with the squad we have would have the fans happier, and the discontent about "connection" to the club wouldn't be an issue. There would still be work to do to improve things, but so long as we were winning more games of football the club, and this forum, would be a hell of a lot happier. Bear in mind, Dundee Utd are 4th, having won only 5 games out of 12 this season, it doesnae take much to work your way up the league.

[easty]

It doesn't have to be deliberate, it could just be sheer incompetence. The net effect is the same.

I agree the net effect is the same, but there is a difference between running us into the ground on purpose, and making terrible appointments accross the club.

It's what I think of David Grays management as well, he's not deliberately not getting results, he just isn't a good enough manager (yet?) to turn things around.

I think it's easier to make a change, and you'd see quicker results on the football side, by getting rid of SDG, than by getting rid of the Gordons or Kensell.

[stalbanshibby]

I'd go further and say it's not a mantra, it's the just the way things are. It sounds simplistic because it is. If we win the next 4 games (obviously that's not going to happen - but if it did), there would be zero threads about protesting the next week. Ben Kensall would still be in his job, Lewis Miller would still be falling to the ground everytime a gust of wind hit him too hard, Myko would still be missing chances, and we'd still have a midfield devoid of attacking intent....but we'd be winning, and people would accept that.

The Gordons want Hibs to be successful, it doesn't benefit them for it to be any other way. They're making big mistakes in appointments, but they're just that - mistakes - they're not deliberately ****ing us over.

I think we just need to agree to disagree. I take the point that winning brings a feel good factor, of course it does, and I'm more miserable than most if Hibs get turned over. I also take the point about Miller falling over, and Myko and barn doors (lol). And I also accept I'm maybe too idealistic. But I would like, in fact, I'm shocked there's not, an official communication channel from the club to the fans, and vice versa, that extends beyond taking my money off me.

I'm angry. Justifiably so. I've nowhere to channel it, except on here. And what material good does that do?

[easty]

However we haven't had a successful team on the park for a very long time and instead this kind of thread has appeared - and the cat is now out of the bag on a number of issues that it may well not otherwise have been. No going back on that.

Kensell's salary, the role and responsibility of the CEO for delivering success across all of the club, questions over the owners and their involvement/interference in day to day management of the football side, the relationship with the support, the role of the support and share ownership, the chumocracy at the club, delivery or otherwise of the Black Knights partnership, the questions over the very substantial amount of capital recently brought into the club and its failure to materialise/deliver in the transfer window.

History is always, always instructive and I am delighted that we have at least some people asking questions now that they weren't before. Perhaps if that had happened a lot earlier in the Duff and Gray era we wouldn't have gotten into such difficulty then. Hopefully transparency, questioning and some degree of accountability will serve us well now and in the future.

We finished 5th and qualified for Europe 2 years ago. That's basically success for Hibs. It really wasn't that long ago. I know some people will say 5th isn't success, but it is in my opinion, based on the fact that it just doesn't happen regularly enough to not be. 7 top 5 finishes in 20 years.

[easty]

I think we just need to agree to disagree. I take the point that winning brings a feel good factor, of course it does, and I'm more miserable than most if Hibs get turned over. I also take the point about Miller falling over, and Myko and barn doors (lol). And I also accept I'm maybe too idealistic. But I would like, in fact, I'm shocked there's not, an official communication channel from the club to the fans, and vice versa, that extends beyond taking my money off me.

There are communication channels. Twitter, tiktok, whatssap.

If what you want is a direct line to the board where they'll answer fans questions regularly, then that's just never going to happen.

If Ben Kensall or Ian Gordon came out every week to talk about how they felt the football was going they'd get slaughtered for that tae anyway.

[WhileTheChief..]

How can finishing 5th at anything be classed as a success?

We’re never going to get anywhere if that’s all we’re aiming for.

Even Ron Gordon realised that. He was the one that set the bar for us as finishing 3rd , Europe and cups.

I will never see finishing 5th as being a successful season.

[easty]

How can finishing 5th at anything be classed as a success?

We’re never going to get anywhere if that’s all we’re aiming for.

Even Ron Gordon realised that. He was the one that set the bar for us as finishing 3rd , Europe and cups.

I will never see finishing 5th as being a successful season.

If finishing 5th isn't successful, then prepare for more disappointment for however long you have left watching Hibs.

3rd should always be the target for us, but 5th is still success for Hibs. If we can regularly get top 5, then increase expectations and build on that. Absolutley.

If Myko targeted getting 20 league goals this season, but only got 15, that wouldn't be failure. Aim high but don't write off what you do achieve.

Similarly, if McKirdy targeted 2 league goals this season, but only got 1...success.

[JohnM1875]

If finishing 5th isn't successful, then prepare for more disappointment for however long you have left watching Hibs.

3rd should always be the target for us, but 5th is still success for Hibs. If we can regularly get top 5, then increase expectations and build on that. Absolutley.

If Myko targeted getting 20 league goals this season, but only got 15, that wouldn't be failure. Aim high but don't write off what you do achieve.

Similarly, if McKirdy targeted 2 league goals this season, but only got 1...success.

Think 5th being successful is a stretch. It’s acceptable but shouldn’t be considered a success.

[Brightside]

I'd go further and say it's not a mantra, it's the just the way things are. It sounds simplistic because it is. If we win the next 4 games (obviously that's not going to happen - but if it did), there would be zero threads about protesting the next week. Ben Kensall would still be in his job, Lewis Miller would still be falling to the ground everytime a gust of wind hit him too hard, Myko would still be missing chances, and we'd still have a midfield devoid of attacking intent....but we'd be winning, and people would accept that.

The Gordons want Hibs to be successful, it doesn't benefit them for it to be any other way. They're making big mistakes in appointments, but they're just that - mistakes - they're not deliberately ****ing us over.

Spot on.

[stalbanshibby]

There are communication channels. Twitter, tiktok, whatssap.

If what you want is a direct line to the board where they'll answer fans questions regularly, then that's just never going to happen.

If Ben Kensall or Ian Gordon came out every week to talk about how they felt the football was going they'd get slaughtered for that tae anyway.

FFS man!! If you go to ER for entertainment only, then that's absolutely fine. I do too, but also for me, having supported Hibs for nigh on 60 years, it still gives me goosebumps when I drive past Easter Road, don't know why, but it does. I remember when STF sold to the Gordon's he said he'd have preferred to sell to a Leither, with good reason - someone who gets the support and the community. Well that didn't happen for whatever reason - either to a broad base of supporters or to a wealthy investor.

Now there's a bunch of wealthy Yanks involved who can do what they like with Hibs, and there's no checks and balances, and no accountability to the support. Beating Aberdeen 4-0 a week on Tuesday isn't going to change that.

[easty]

FFS man!! If you go to ER for entertainment only, then that's absolutely fine. I do too, but also for me, having supported Hibs for nigh on 60 years, it still gives me goosebumps when I drive past Easter Road, don't know why, but it does. I remember when STF sold to the Gordon's he said he'd have preferred to sell to a Leither, with good reason - someone who gets the support and the community. Well that didn't happen for whatever reason - either to a broad base of supporters or to a wealthy investor.

Now there's a bunch of wealthy Yanks involved who can do what they like with Hibs, and there's no checks and balances, and no accountability to the support. Beating Aberdeen 4-0 a week on Tuesday isn't going to change that.

I have no idea what it is that you want :dunno:

No checks and balances? Isn't that what the annual accounts tell us?

[stalbanshibby]

I have no idea what it is that you want :dunno:

No checks and balances? Isn't that what the annual accounts tell us?

We finally agree then. You've no idea.

[easty]

We finally agree then. You've no idea.

Nice :aok:

I hope you don't trip up on your petted lip today mate

[J-C]

no, not really. The board would have had professionals on it, not a load of people off Hibs.net.

It was tongue in cheek, with all the bickering that goes on in here, I was imagining the board room with all the various factions shouting each other down. I'm all for fan involvement to a certain degree but I still thinks full ownership is still the way but obviously with a football knowledge. Farmer took over because he was a Leith man and wanted to help the club but he was never into football being a rugby man, he put Petrie in charge as he was an accountant he'd done business with and basically told him to keep a tight ship and not to lose money, we all know how tight arsed Petrie was. :greengrin Only after relegation did Petrie bite the bullet and bring in proper football people, Leeann and Craig. Ron's biggest mistake was not keeping people like that on board and trying to do it himself, he ran it like a business and not a football club, his 1st mistake and now there's no connection between fans and the club, such a shame after the 2016 high.

[Donegal Hibby]

Think 5th being successful is a stretch. It’s acceptable but shouldn’t be considered a success.

Probably in line with where our budget was compared to the other teams …. After finishing in the bottom six the year before I suppose most of us wanted to see improvement and qualifying for Europe which was what we achieved.

[CropleyWasGod]

FFS man!! If you go to ER for entertainment only, then that's absolutely fine. I do too, but also for me, having supported Hibs for nigh on 60 years, it still gives me goosebumps when I drive past Easter Road, don't know why, but it does. I remember when STF sold to the Gordon's he said he'd have preferred to sell to a Leither, with good reason - someone who gets the support and the community. Well that didn't happen for whatever reason - either to a broad base of supporters or to a wealthy investor.

Now there's a bunch of wealthy Yanks involved who can do what they like with Hibs, and there's no checks and balances, and no accountability to the support. Beating Aberdeen 4-0 a week on Tuesday isn't going to change that.

Can you define that?

By my understanding of what you're saying, we have never had "accountability".

[WhileTheChief..]

If finishing 5th isn't successful, then prepare for more disappointment for however long you have left watching Hibs.

3rd should always be the target for us, but 5th is still success for Hibs. If we can regularly get top 5, then increase expectations and build on that. Absolutley.

If Myko targeted getting 20 league goals this season, but only got 15, that wouldn't be failure. Aim high but don't write off what you do achieve.

Similarly, if McKirdy targeted 2 league goals this season, but only got 1...success.

Each to their own I guess!

If you see 5th as a successful season then great. Looks like the club think the same way as you.

I see it as being bang average, verging on failure.

[Just_Jimmy]

No, that's not even close to what I'm saying.

There's loads wrong. Manager, coaches, recruitment, current players, DoF. I've never claimed it was just the manager.

My point is that a better manager, who got us better results with the squad we have would have the fans happier, and the discontent about "connection" to the club wouldn't be an issue. There would still be work to do to improve things, but so long as we were winning more games of football the club, and this forum, would be a hell of a lot happier. Bear in mind, Dundee Utd are 4th, having won only 5 games out of 12 this season, it doesnae take much to work your way up the league.As I said in my previous post, I'd like to test your theory and find out.

You're probably right that less people would be asking questions but ultimately it would just be papering over the massive huge cracks with this regime.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Just_Jimmy]

Think 5th being successful is a stretch. It’s acceptable but shouldn’t be considered a success.Unless we win a cup the same season, then nah, it's pish.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[stalbanshibby]

Can you define that?

By my understanding of what you're saying, we have never had "accountability".

maybe I used the word loosely. What I'm more concerned about, as I've said on other posts, is that the support is powerless. Maybe it's always been that way. This current mob seem to have taken mismanagement to a new level, and there seems very little anyone, other than the Board themselves, can do about it. For supporters, all we can do is bitch on here. It was not always so - Leann reached out. This lot push away.

[Brightside]

Each to their own I guess!

If you see 5th as a successful season then great. Looks like the club think the same way as you.

I see it as being bang average, verging on failure.

You are the same age as me. Bang average would be a successful season.

[flash]

maybe I used the word loosely. What I'm more concerned about, as I've said on other posts, is that the support is powerless. Maybe it's always been that way. This current mob seem to have taken mismanagement to a new level, and there seems very little anyone, other than the Board themselves, can do about it. For supporters, all we can do is bitch on here. It was not always so - Leann reached out. This lot push away.

I take it you didn't live through Duff and Gray if you think this is as bad as it gets.

[Brightside]

maybe I used the word loosely. What I'm more concerned about, as I've said on other posts, is that the support is powerless. Maybe it's always been that way. This current mob seem to have taken mismanagement to a new level, and there seems very little anyone, other than the Board themselves, can do about it. For supporters, all we can do is bitch on here. It was not always so - Leann reached out. This lot push away.

The Leann stuff is massively overplayed. Email Ben with your concerns, there is a very strong chance he will call you direct to chat about it. Your bit about the support being powerless - yes it's always been that way. We get to watch the team - we have zero power in the running of the club. If we want that power we need to put our hand in the pockets and buy the club. Which is never going to happen. As easty point out if we were sitting in the top half of the table the complaints would be few and far between.

[WhileTheChief..]

You are the same age as me. Bang average would be a successful season.

RG lifted the bar.

He’s the one who said we’re targeting 3rd or 4th, Euro qualification and cups.

Anything less than that and we’ve failed.

Besides, what’s wrong with wanting better? Just because we’ve always been average doesn’t mean we need to accept it.

It’s sport, we should always be trying to improve.

5th as a successful season?? No wonder we’re languishing where we are with that kind of ambition.

Next season folk will be celebrating if we get promoted no doubt!!

[Donegal Hibby]

I'd go further and say it's not a mantra, it's the just the way things are. It sounds simplistic because it is. If we win the next 4 games (obviously that's not going to happen - but if it did), there would be zero threads about protesting the next week. Ben Kensall would still be in his job, Lewis Miller would still be falling to the ground everytime a gust of wind hit him too hard, Myko would still be missing chances, and we'd still have a midfield devoid of attacking intent....but we'd be winning, and people would accept that.

The Gordons want Hibs to be successful, it doesn't benefit them for it to be any other way. They're making big mistakes in appointments, but they're just that - mistakes - they're not deliberately ****ing us over.


We finished 5th and qualified for Europe 2 years ago. That's basically success for Hibs. It really wasn't that long ago. I know some people will say 5th isn't success, but it is in my opinion, based on the fact that it just doesn't happen regularly enough to not be. 7 top 5 finishes in 20 years.

Agree with this … if you offered me a 5th place finish for this season I’d bite the hand off you for it and see it as a successful season too .

[stalbanshibby]

The Leann stuff is massively overplayed. Email Ben with your concerns, there is a very strong chance he will call you direct to chat about it. Your bit about the support being powerless - yes it's always been that way. We get to watch the team - we have zero power in the running of the club. If we want that power we need to put our hand in the pockets and buy the club. Which is never going to happen. As easty point out if we were sitting in the top half of the table the complaints would be few and far between.

Yeah. Maybe it's me who needs a chill pill.

[Since452]

Sadly 5th would be a good season for us. We've only finished 5th or higher in the top league 10 times in the last 30 years.

[JohnM1875]

Sadly 5th would be a good season for us. We've only finished 5th or higher in the top league 10 times in the last 30 years.

All that means is we’ve been **** 20 out of the 30 years and vastly underperformed. Doesn’t mean fifth should be celebrated as some kind of success.

[Heisenberg]

In terms of budgets is 5th not exactly where we should be?

[stalbanshibby]

I take it you didn't live through Duff and Gray if you think this is as bad as it gets.

I did, but was watching Hibs from afar then. Some wise arse that I worked with at the time, gave me a number. told me it was the Hibs crisis line ( a bit like childline), and I swallowed it hook line and sinker. Had to buy a few rounds in the pub after that (idiot of the month award) and didn't live it down for a while

[blackpoolhibs]

I'd go further and say it's not a mantra, it's the just the way things are. It sounds simplistic because it is. If we win the next 4 games (obviously that's not going to happen - but if it did), there would be zero threads about protesting the next week. Ben Kensall would still be in his job, Lewis Miller would still be falling to the ground everytime a gust of wind hit him too hard, Myko would still be missing chances, and we'd still have a midfield devoid of attacking intent....but we'd be winning, and people would accept that.

The Gordons want Hibs to be successful, it doesn't benefit them for it to be any other way. They're making big mistakes in appointments, but they're just that - mistakes - they're not deliberately ****ing us over.
I dont think i've seen anyone say they are doing it on purpose? :confused:

They might want Hibs to be successful, in fact they do, but they have failed from the very first day they walked through the door, and every month they fail at one thing or another.

You are right though, if we had the team Ron promised, nobody would be moaning, but we dont and under this owner, who in their right mind thinks we will?

[Baader]

Nah, I wouldn’t say so.

Hibs can be doing well on the pitch without being connected to the board.

I was a teen at the time, but I dinnae remember anyone talking about the connection with the CEO or owner when we had Sauzee and Latapy and McLeish.

Both those players were signed by McLeish when we were in the Championship. There was disgruntlement then about what had been allowed to happen and where the club was headed under Farmer's ownership. Admittedly not comparable to right now but it's not true to suggest there were no dissenting voices.

[flash]

All that means is we’ve been **** 20 out of the 30 years and vastly underperformed. Doesn’t mean fifth should be celebrated as some kind of success.

You can't underperform over such a lengthy period without that level of performance becoming the norm.

Fifth place isn't where we would like ourselves to be but it's merely pointing out a truth to say that it constitutes a relatively successful season by our standards, pitiful as they are.

[WhileTheChief..]

I take it you didn't live through Duff and Gray if you think this is as bad as it gets.

We had an amazing squad back then compared to now. Goram, Collins, Weir etc.

I’d love to see a return to those days!

[flash]

We had an amazing squad back then compared to now. Goram, Collins, Weir etc.

I’d love to see a return to those days!

We were a bawhair from being swallowed up by Hertz so I don't share your enthusiasm.

[Brizo]

The Leann stuff is massively overplayed. Email Ben with your concerns, there is a very strong chance he will call you direct to chat about it. Your bit about the support being powerless - yes it's always been that way. We get to watch the team - we have zero power in the running of the club. If we want that power we need to put our hand in the pockets and buy the club. Which is never going to happen. As easty point out if we were sitting in the top half of the table the complaints would be few and far between.

Agree and disagree with this.

My experience of both Dempster and Kensell is that it took months of reminder emails and phone calls before either would reply to supporter club initiatives I was involved in. On the other hand I remember writing to Dougie Cromb and Tom O'Malley back in the day and them responding more or less instantly and inviting me in for a chat. That personal touch and willingness to engage with individual fans concerns had disappeared before the Gordon's arrived. Maybe it's because Dougie and Tom were first and foremost fans who thought like fans and not business appointments like Dempster and Kensell?

As to the bigger picture of having any power in the running of the club, when old Dougie and Tom sat me down in their offices and gave me tea and biscuits they also took no action on the issues I'd raised :greengrin. The difference is I felt I'd been seen and heard and that's something that I thinks been missing for a while from our club. A high league position always puts lack of communication on the back-burner but it's equally understandable why it adds to feelings of disconnectedness in times like these.

[superfurryhibby]

Both those players were signed by McLeish when we were in the Championship. There was disgruntlement then about what had been allowed to happen and where the club was headed under Farmer's ownership. Admittedly not comparable to right now but it's not true to suggest there were no dissenting voices.

Hands on Hibs were active at this time.

[stalbanshibby]

Can you define that?

By my understanding of what you're saying, we have never had "accountability".

I found this article which sums up what I'd like to see at Hibs: in the EPL Fan Advisory Boards are now mandatory, as is the appointment at Board level of an executive responsible for Fan engagement. With hindsight, I wish I'd done this research before starting this thread, but that said, I'm not the first person on here to be reactionary. If your not tempted to read it, it starts

"Fan engagement is no longer just about what happens on the pitch—it’s about creating meaningful, lasting connections between clubs and their supporters.'

It uses words like 'inclusivity' and 'representation'. Its this I'm after: rather than feeling shut out, and having to speculate about what's going on. And IMHO if the club were seen to be proactive in engaging with the support, there'd be much less abuse being thrown in their direction. At least there would be some transparency rather than just feeling I'm here to have my pockets emptied. It's fair to say that the current focus of the FAB's seems to be more about the matchday experience, as oppose to malfunctioning football departments, but at least there'd be a channel for dialogue, and the FSA's views are that FAB's are just the start, and nothing is off the table.

I can't for the life of me understand why this wouldn't be a good move for the club and support.

https://www.isportconnect.com/the-shape-of-fan-engagement-in-english-football-a-review-of-epl-club-fan-engagement-reports/

Another article I found, from the Football Supporters Association, talks about a pyramid of evolution of fan engagement, where the peak of the pyramid is supporter ownership (not saying that'll happen at Hibs), and the FABs are only the bottom level of the pyramid - the first rung on the ladder

https://thefsa.org.uk/our-work/supporter-engagement/

If this seems radical: well Hibs have always been pioneers. To me, it's just sensible and would be first steps in bringing an alienated support onside. Might even mitigate some of the toxicity you see on here.

Maybe I'll start a new thread, or even write to Ben to see if any plans for this are in place. Anyone know his email address?

Can't wait to her from you easty

[Lago]

I found this article which sums up what I'd like to see at Hibs: in the EPL Fan Advisory Boards are now mandatory, as is the appointment at Board level of an executive responsible for Fan engagement. With hindsight, I wish I'd done this research before starting this thread, but that said, I'm not the first person on here to be reactionary. If your not tempted to read it, it starts

"Fan engagement is no longer just about what happens on the pitch—it’s about creating meaningful, lasting connections between clubs and their supporters.'

It uses words like 'inclusivity' and 'representation'. Its this I'm after: rather than feeling shut out, and having to speculate about what's going on. And IMHO if the club were seen to be proactive in engaging with the support, there'd be much less abuse being thrown in their direction. At least there would be some transparency rather than just feeling I'm here to have my pockets emptied. It's fair to say that the current focus of the FAB's seems to be more about the matchday experience, as oppose to malfunctioning football departments, but at least there'd be a channel for dialogue, and the FSA's views are that FAB's are just the start, and nothing is off the table.

I can't for the life of me understand why this wouldn't be a good move for the club and support.

https://www.isportconnect.com/the-shape-of-fan-engagement-in-english-football-a-review-of-epl-club-fan-engagement-reports/

Another article I found, from the Football Supporters Association, talks about a pyramid of evolution of fan engagement, where the peak of the pyramid is supporter ownership (not saying that'll happen at Hibs), and the FABs are only the bottom level of the pyramid - the first rung on the ladder

https://thefsa.org.uk/our-work/supporter-engagement/

If this seems radical: well Hibs have always been pioneers. To me, it's just sensible and would be first steps in bringing an alienated support onside. Might even mitigate some of the toxicity you see on here.

Maybe I'll start a new thread, or even write to Ben to see if any plans for this are in place. Anyone know his email address?

Can't wait to her from you easty
Some real buzz words and phrases in that publication.

[stalbanshibby]

Some real buzz words and phrases in that publication.

What? Mine or the articles?? The gist of it is bringing the relationship between the Club and the support into the 21st century.

[TrinityHFC]

What? Mine or the articles?? The gist of it is bringing the relationship between the Club and the support into the 21st century.

We had fan reps on our board. Waste of time.

[Billy Whizz]

We had fan reps on our board. Waste of time.

I’m sure the late Frank Dougan wouldn’t agree with you

[One Day Soon]

We had fan reps on our board. Waste of time.

Ye Ken that dae ye?

[Bostonhibby]

I’m sure the late Frank Dougan wouldn’t agree with youAgreed, they really weren't a waste of time, a bit of a step in the right direction that was quickly terminated.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Lago]

What? Mine or the articles?? The gist of it is bringing the relationship between the Club and the support into the 21st century.
Articles, should have been clearer.

[One Day Soon]

I'll just say this, I had quite an enjoyable weekend not being distressed by Hibs on Saturday.

[flash]

I'll just say this, I had quite an enjoyable weekend not being distressed by Hibs on Saturday.

I was bored stiff without a game at the weekend despite them ruining most of my Saturdays recently.

[Donegal Hibby]

I was bored stiff without a game at the weekend despite them ruining most of my Saturdays recently.

Yep , weekends aren’t the same without football.

[Yorkshire HFC]

We had fan reps on our board. Waste of time.

What is it that you think you're entitled to from the club?

Is it any more than a group of people doing their job as best they can?

And getting hammered for it by the internet.

[TrinityHFC]

What is it that you think you're entitled to from the club?

Is it any more than a group of people doing their job as best they can?

And getting hammered for it by the internet.

No I agree with you.

What I think is a waste of time is talking about fans on the board or engagement committees that sit below them. None of it has any impact on the running of the club or what happens on the pitch.

[Brizo]

What is it that you think you're entitled to from the club?

Is it any more than a group of people doing their job as best they can?

And getting hammered for it by the internet.


I think that's the key phrase. I don't doubt they're all doing the best they can but how competent are they to do the jobs they've assigned themselves and how competent are the people they've assigned jobs to. I'd suggest the evidence is our place in the league and the disconnect and apathy felt by a lot of fans.

I'd do as best I can if I was asked to play for Hibs this Saturday but as a man in my 60's with two knackered knees it wouldn't be very good :greengrin

[Billy Whizz]

I think that's the key phrase. I don't doubt they're all doing the best they can but how competent are they to do the jobs they've assigned themselves and how competent are the people they've assigned jobs to. I'd suggest the evidence is our place in the league and the disconnect and apathy felt by a lot of fans.

I'd do as best I can if I was asked to play for Hibs this Saturday but as a man in my 60's with two knackered knees it wouldn't be very good :greengrin

I’m in the same age bracket and have had 3 knee ops, maybe we could do 45 mins each

[WhileTheChief..]

We had fan reps on our board. Waste of time.

Totally agree, as would lots of others.

Simply a way for the club to say they’re listening to the fans whilst carrying on regardless.

[ancient hibee]

In my time supporting Hibs the best times on the field coincided with the board/owners paying no attention to the fans. The days of the Tornadoes is a prime example.

[stalbanshibby]

What is it that you think you're entitled to from the club?

Is it any more than a group of people doing their job as best they can?

And getting hammered for it by the internet.

Here's an extract from the FSA article that I posted, regarding fan engagement. The reason I started this thread, is because I feel and others on here did too, that the club's focus has been to upgrade corporate facilities, whilst the product on the pitch which is what most punters care about, has been garbage. It also became clear, if you look back through the thread, that there is NO avenue currently, and this includes HSL, for the support to raise concerns with the Board, other than moaning and bitching on here, and then that's dependent on whether anyone from the Board reads these threads, or shouting at them in the Director's Box after a pish result. The closest we've come is that HSL reached out to its members for views to be put to the Board last week, after the club statement on SDG, because they had a scheduled meeting with the Board, but the meeting was cancelled by the Club.

Sure, mistakes have been made and admitted to at Board level, which is fair enough - we all make mistakes. But there was a feeling of disengagement between the Board and ordinary supporters, and as said, no means to engage with the Board at any level. So the Football Supporters Association (from where the article comes) with the backing of the UK government has mandated that clubs meet with the support at least twice a year - and that's all clubs in the EFL. The SFSA seem miles behind, but in the 21st century, from a club's POV, why would you NOT want to engage with the people who underpin your Business model, and keep them onside, even if it's just lip service to begin with? And in the 21st century why would supporters NOT want to have a route to the Board and to get their views and feelings across in an official capacity, where currently there is none.

Currently it's a bit feudal isn't it? The Board can do what they like (with my and your club) with no real means of any of us being able to register protest. I'm not saying Football Advisory Boards would be an instant cure for this, but at least they'd be a step in the right direction.

The aspiration of FABs is to:

"not only creates a fan base who feel positive about their club, it also provides valuable supporter feedback.
With supporter involvement evolving significantly over the past two decades, it is important to identify the different mechanisms of engagement and what is driving them: increasing numbers of supporter-owned clubs, fan representatives, the introduction of roles such as the Supporter Liaison Officer and structured dialogue.
Supporters have never had a better chance to raise their voice and ensure they are heard on critical issues related to the running and ownership of their clubs."

[GreenCastle]

I think something as simple as the “working together” groups would grow the connection between fans and board / club staff.

Most of fan engagement right now is all about getting ££ out of fans like the FF stones email yesterday.

We have had a few posters on here who have talked about how it worked previously and the impact it had. Not sure why it stopped ? But really should be something long term rather than short term.

[Centre Hawf]

Here's an extract from the FSA article that I posted, regarding fan engagement. The reason I started this thread, is because I feel and others on here did too, that the club's focus has been to upgrade corporate facilities, whilst the product on the pitch which is what most punters care about, has been garbage. It also became clear, if you look back through the thread, that there is NO avenue currently, and this includes HSL, for the support to raise concerns with the Board, other than moaning and bitching on here, and then that's dependent on whether anyone from the Board reads these threads, or shouting at them in the Director's Box after a pish result. The closest we've come is that HSL reached out to its members for views to be put to the Board last week, after the club statement on SDG, because they had a scheduled meeting with the Board, but the meeting was cancelled by the Club.

It's never sat right with me that out of all the complaints we can have with our leadership that the hospitality stuff is the one that angers so many people. For context I don't use them, I probably will in the future when certain occasions call for it. But I've never once felt like the idea of us putting a new set of lounges in the West Stand or Famous Five (the latter of which by the way was HUGELY needed) was a glaring issue.

If the money to get new players has dwindled because of this work I can understand the anger at it, but it hasn't, we spend more than ever, it just happens to be we spend it so piss poorly. The suites and screens are income generators for the club, which at the rate we burn through cash at the moment is hugely needed. If these projects took the eye off the ball of whoever does our recruiting then I'd be questioning why they're involved in both projects.

[easty]

I think something as simple as the “working together” groups would grow the connection between fans and board / club staff.

Most of fan engagement right now is all about getting ££ out of fans like the FF stones email yesterday.

We have had a few posters on here who have talked about how it worked previously and the impact it had. Not sure why it stopped ? But really should be something long term rather than short term.

Working together groups wouldn’t grow any connection between fans and board unless we start winning games of football as well.

[DavieRoy]

We had fan reps on the board and they all of a sudden disappeared but the reps did get roles at the club. No announcement, just like Ian Gordon becoming head of recruitment, these changes were just sneaked through. The warning signs about how the club was being run was a that point.

HSL did get pelters in February because they were trying to warn us. The thing is, do they have the answers going forward, I am not sure. One thing though, if you listen back to the TV interviews ahead of the AGM with Jim Adie and Ben Kensell about the future of the club, I know who I believe and would back going forward.

[RIP]

Hibs.net could run a supporters forum in the HSA and invite the board.

They can only say no.

[Pretty Boy]

I've resisted posting on this thread thus far as I'm wary of just repeating the same old obsessions that I have done to death on other threads but.........

I think it can be true that the lack of a quality product on the park amplifies moans and groans about other stuff but equally whilst a better team might push the concerns to the background it doesn't mean the problems don't exist. I've read plenty threads in the past in which someone has questioned something about their experience in the stadium or with customer service at the club and been shouted down with 'oh we won today so you have to find something to moan about'. A better team creates a less receptive audience rather than an environment in which the other problems simply disappear.

I have no gripes with the money spent on hospitality. It's part of the modern game and when you look at the designs for any new stadium it's almost always the income that can be generated that is front and centre rather than the atmosphere that will be generated. The simple fact is most clubs are no longer really interested in your 'entry level' fan even if they have to pretend otherwise. It's worth remembering that when the FF stand was built in the mid 90s the then 'Forthview Suite' was built to a very high spec at the insistence of Tom Farmer. It was dated and hadn't been maintained but even back then money generation from such ventures was in the minds of those running the club. Where I have an issue is that the offering for regular fans hasn't even tried to keep pace with the more upmarket offerings. The kiosks are still terrible; terrible in terms of offering, service, quality, availability and pricing. They have always been terrible but big promises were made regarding them and they haven't been kept. The FF Upper had no soft drinks available at all before the game against whoever we played before St Mirren. I was at Starks Park at the weekend and every one of the 5 areas I listed above was streets ahead of ER. 6 different types of pie with good availability on each, little sweet tubs for the kids, Raith Rovers branded empire biscuits, plenty soft drinks and the usual hot dogs and whatever. Queue was lengthy but I was served in less than 5 minutes and everything was piping hot and tasty, all supplied by a local company. 4 pies, 2 hot dogs, 2 cold drinks and 2 tubs of sweets and I got change from £30. Not a chance at ER. If they can do it then so can we. Don't even get me started on there being no hot water in the toilets.

I also think we made a few decisions for a quick upturn in turnover but one that was so insignificant that it really makes me question whether the intangible benefit of connections with fans and fans groups wasn't worth more. As one example the player sponsorships. That used to be priced at a point where it was accessible to some families and a lot of supporters groups. It was an easy way to get those people into the club; there was an invite to the sponsors night and a couple of other events during the year. If memory serves it cost about £400 for a home, away or training kit. The price was hiked considerably and it priced places like this site out and I know a few supporters clubs were in a similar situation. A cursory glance at the official site suggests quite a few players have no sponsors and it's a handful of businesses sponsoring multiple players among those that do have them. For the sake of an upturn in income that is less than a couple of months wages for a first team player I would argue that ability to engage in a bit of face to face PR was worth more. More generally Hibs seemed more of an open door previosuly. George Craig in particular was big on getting fans in and selling the vision. Without going into specifics the door was very much slammed in the face of the site when it came to trying to continue that kind of engagement. Likewise the club used to have an agreement with the various Hibs podcasts that they would provide guests to each on a rotational basis. I'm out the loop now so can't say for certain but looking at the output of the podcasts lately and the fact a couple have fell by the wayside it suggests this may no longer be the case. With so much now going through the Hibs Observer and Hibees Buzz it probably makes sense commercially and from a control aspect for Hibs but a lack of genuine fan produced content questioning the club directly is missed imo.

I'm more than aware that if we were sitting where Aberdeen are in the league then cold, overpriced pies, guests on podcasts and players not having sponsors would get far less air time but we're not in that position. And when we're not performing on the park it's natural some people will question every aspect of how the club is being run and link all of them back to the performance on the park whether that is justified or not.

[stalbanshibby]

I've resisted posting on this thread thus far as I'm wary of just repeating the same old obsessions that I have done to death on other threads but.........

I think it can be true that the lack of a quality product on the park amplifies moans and groans about other stuff but equally whilst a better team might push the concerns to the background it doesn't mean the problems don't exist. I've read plenty threads in the past in which someone has questioned something about their experience in the stadium or with customer service at the club and been shouted down with 'oh we won today so you have to find something to moan about'. A better team creates a less receptive audience rather than an environment in which the other problems simply disappear.

I have no gripes with the money spent on hospitality. It's part of the modern game and when you look at the designs for any new stadium it's almost always the income that can be generated that is front and centre rather than the atmosphere that will be generated. The simple fact is most clubs are no longer really interested in your 'entry level' fan even if they have to pretend otherwise. It's worth remembering that when the FF stand was built in the mid 90s the then 'Forthview Suite' was built to a very high spec at the insistence of Tom Farmer. It was dated and hadn't been maintained but even back then money generation from such ventures was in the minds of those running the club. Where I have an issue is that the offering for regular fans hasn't even tried to keep pace with the more upmarket offerings. The kiosks are still terrible; terrible in terms of offering, service, quality, availability and pricing. They have always been terrible but big promises were made regarding them and they haven't been kept. The FF Upper had no soft drinks available at all before the game against whoever we played before St Mirren. I was at Starks Park at the weekend and every one of the 5 areas I listed above was streets ahead of ER. 6 different types of pie with good availability on each, little sweet tubs for the kids, Raith Rovers branded empire biscuits, plenty soft drinks and the usual hot dogs and whatever. Queue was lengthy but I was served in less than 5 minutes and everything was piping hot and tasty, all supplied by a local company. 4 pies, 2 hot dogs, 2 cold drinks and 2 tubs of sweets and I got change from £30. Not a chance at ER. If they can do it then so can we. Don't even get me started on there being no hot water in the toilets.

I also think we made a few decisions for a quick upturn in turnover but one that was so insignificant that it really makes me question whether the intangible benefit of connections with fans and fans groups wasn't worth more. As one example the player sponsorships. That used to be priced at a point where it was accessible to some families and a lot of supporters groups. It was an easy way to get those people into the club; there was an invite to the sponsors night and a couple of other events during the year. If memory serves it cost about £400 for a home, away or training kit. The price was hiked considerably and it priced places like this site out and I know a few supporters clubs were in a similar situation. A cursory glance at the official site suggests quite a few players have no sponsors and it's a handful of businesses sponsoring multiple players among those that do have them. For the sake of an upturn in income that is less than a couple of months wages for a first team player I would argue that ability to engage in a bit of face to face PR wasn't worth more. More generally Hibs seemed more of an open door previosuly. George Craig in particular was big on getting fans in and selling the vision. Without going into specifics the door was very much slammed in the face of the site when it came to trying to continue that kind of engagement. Likewise the club used to have an agreement with the various Hibs podcasts that they would provide guests to each on a rotational basis. I'm out the loop now so can't say for certain but looking at the output of the podcasts lately and the fact a couple have fell by the wayside it suggests this may no longer be the case. With so much now going through the Hibs Observer and Hibees Buzz it probably makes sense commercially and from a control aspect for Hibs but a lack of genuine fan produced content questioning the club directly is missed imo.

I'm more than aware that if we were sitting where Aberdeen are in the league then cold, overpriced pies, guests on podcasts and players not having sponsors would get far less air time but we're not in that position. And when we're not performing on the park it's natural some people will question every aspect of how the club is being run and link all of them back to the performance on the park whether that is justified or not.

Good post

[stalbanshibby]

I think something as simple as the “working together” groups would grow the connection between fans and board / club staff.

Most of fan engagement right now is all about getting ££ out of fans like the FF stones email yesterday.

We have had a few posters on here who have talked about how it worked previously and the impact it had. Not sure why it stopped ? But really should be something long term rather than short term.

I agree.

[stalbanshibby]

It's never sat right with me that out of all the complaints we can have with our leadership that the hospitality stuff is the one that angers so many people. For context I don't use them, I probably will in the future when certain occasions call for it. But I've never once felt like the idea of us putting a new set of lounges in the West Stand or Famous Five (the latter of which by the way was HUGELY needed) was a glaring issue.

If the money to get new players has dwindled because of this work I can understand the anger at it, but it hasn't, we spend more than ever, it just happens to be we spend it so piss poorly. The suites and screens are income generators for the club, which at the rate we burn through cash at the moment is hugely needed. If these projects took the eye off the ball of whoever does our recruiting then I'd be questioning why they're involved in both projects.

For me, it's not so much the hospitality stuff I have a problem with, to be clear I don't use it either, but just the general lack of engagement with the support. it's also fair to say that if the team were doing better, a lot of this disgruntlement would probably subside. But even so, the Club are not engaging with the support, other than the odd statement, and there are no current avenues for any sort of dialogue. The Board doesn't look down the way and there is a feeling, and I share this, that the only engagement is commercial and designed to take my money off me.

It's a win-win for the Board to engage us in some sort of official capacity: the support would feel less taken for granted for a start, and the club would be making efforts to allow us to air our views, keep us onside, and give us some involvement.

I just can't see why this wouldn't be a good thing all round.

[GreenCastle]

I've resisted posting on this thread thus far as I'm wary of just repeating the same old obsessions that I have done to death on other threads but.........

I think it can be true that the lack of a quality product on the park amplifies moans and groans about other stuff but equally whilst a better team might push the concerns to the background it doesn't mean the problems don't exist. I've read plenty threads in the past in which someone has questioned something about their experience in the stadium or with customer service at the club and been shouted down with 'oh we won today so you have to find something to moan about'. A better team creates a less receptive audience rather than an environment in which the other problems simply disappear.

I have no gripes with the money spent on hospitality. It's part of the modern game and when you look at the designs for any new stadium it's almost always the income that can be generated that is front and centre rather than the atmosphere that will be generated. The simple fact is most clubs are no longer really interested in your 'entry level' fan even if they have to pretend otherwise. It's worth remembering that when the FF stand was built in the mid 90s the then 'Forthview Suite' was built to a very high spec at the insistence of Tom Farmer. It was dated and hadn't been maintained but even back then money generation from such ventures was in the minds of those running the club. Where I have an issue is that the offering for regular fans hasn't even tried to keep pace with the more upmarket offerings. The kiosks are still terrible; terrible in terms of offering, service, quality, availability and pricing. They have always been terrible but big promises were made regarding them and they haven't been kept. The FF Upper had no soft drinks available at all before the game against whoever we played before St Mirren. I was at Starks Park at the weekend and every one of the 5 areas I listed above was streets ahead of ER. 6 different types of pie with good availability on each, little sweet tubs for the kids, Raith Rovers branded empire biscuits, plenty soft drinks and the usual hot dogs and whatever. Queue was lengthy but I was served in less than 5 minutes and everything was piping hot and tasty, all supplied by a local company. 4 pies, 2 hot dogs, 2 cold drinks and 2 tubs of sweets and I got change from £30. Not a chance at ER. If they can do it then so can we. Don't even get me started on there being no hot water in the toilets.

I also think we made a few decisions for a quick upturn in turnover but one that was so insignificant that it really makes me question whether the intangible benefit of connections with fans and fans groups wasn't worth more. As one example the player sponsorships. That used to be priced at a point where it was accessible to some families and a lot of supporters groups. It was an easy way to get those people into the club; there was an invite to the sponsors night and a couple of other events during the year. If memory serves it cost about £400 for a home, away or training kit. The price was hiked considerably and it priced places like this site out and I know a few supporters clubs were in a similar situation. A cursory glance at the official site suggests quite a few players have no sponsors and it's a handful of businesses sponsoring multiple players among those that do have them. For the sake of an upturn in income that is less than a couple of months wages for a first team player I would argue that ability to engage in a bit of face to face PR wasn't worth more. More generally Hibs seemed more of an open door previosuly. George Craig in particular was big on getting fans in and selling the vision. Without going into specifics the door was very much slammed in the face of the site when it came to trying to continue that kind of engagement. Likewise the club used to have an agreement with the various Hibs podcasts that they would provide guests to each on a rotational basis. I'm out the loop now so can't say for certain but looking at the output of the podcasts lately and the fact a couple have fell by the wayside it suggests this may no longer be the case. With so much now going through the Hibs Observer and Hibees Buzz it probably makes sense commercially and from a control aspect for Hibs but a lack of genuine fan produced content questioning the club directly is missed imo.

I'm more than aware that if we were sitting where Aberdeen are in the league then cold, overpriced pies, guests on podcasts and players not having sponsors would get far less air time but we're not in that position. And when we're not performing on the park it's natural some people will question every aspect of how the club is being run and link all of them back to the performance on the park whether that is justified or not.

Good post.

Seems to be so many issues at Hibs sone small but important some bigger like results on the pitch which the club are failing with.

Surely KP or someone within the club can be made aware of the crap offerings in kiosks etc.

The hot water issue never used to bother me but as it gets colder and nearly every other club has it annoys me more than it should.

[Lago]

I've resisted posting on this thread thus far as I'm wary of just repeating the same old obsessions that I have done to death on other threads but.........

I think it can be true that the lack of a quality product on the park amplifies moans and groans about other stuff but equally whilst a better team might push the concerns to the background it doesn't mean the problems don't exist. I've read plenty threads in the past in which someone has questioned something about their experience in the stadium or with customer service at the club and been shouted down with 'oh we won today so you have to find something to moan about'. A better team creates a less receptive audience rather than an environment in which the other problems simply disappear.

I have no gripes with the money spent on hospitality. It's part of the modern game and when you look at the designs for any new stadium it's almost always the income that can be generated that is front and centre rather than the atmosphere that will be generated. The simple fact is most clubs are no longer really interested in your 'entry level' fan even if they have to pretend otherwise. It's worth remembering that when the FF stand was built in the mid 90s the then 'Forthview Suite' was built to a very high spec at the insistence of Tom Farmer. It was dated and hadn't been maintained but even back then money generation from such ventures was in the minds of those running the club. Where I have an issue is that the offering for regular fans hasn't even tried to keep pace with the more upmarket offerings. The kiosks are still terrible; terrible in terms of offering, service, quality, availability and pricing. They have always been terrible but big promises were made regarding them and they haven't been kept. The FF Upper had no soft drinks available at all before the game against whoever we played before St Mirren. I was at Starks Park at the weekend and every one of the 5 areas I listed above was streets ahead of ER. 6 different types of pie with good availability on each, little sweet tubs for the kids, Raith Rovers branded empire biscuits, plenty soft drinks and the usual hot dogs and whatever. Queue was lengthy but I was served in less than 5 minutes and everything was piping hot and tasty, all supplied by a local company. 4 pies, 2 hot dogs, 2 cold drinks and 2 tubs of sweets and I got change from £30. Not a chance at ER. If they can do it then so can we. Don't even get me started on there being no hot water in the toilets.

I also think we made a few decisions for a quick upturn in turnover but one that was so insignificant that it really makes me question whether the intangible benefit of connections with fans and fans groups wasn't worth more. As one example the player sponsorships. That used to be priced at a point where it was accessible to some families and a lot of supporters groups. It was an easy way to get those people into the club; there was an invite to the sponsors night and a couple of other events during the year. If memory serves it cost about £400 for a home, away or training kit. The price was hiked considerably and it priced places like this site out and I know a few supporters clubs were in a similar situation. A cursory glance at the official site suggests quite a few players have no sponsors and it's a handful of businesses sponsoring multiple players among those that do have them. For the sake of an upturn in income that is less than a couple of months wages for a first team player I would argue that ability to engage in a bit of face to face PR was worth more. More generally Hibs seemed more of an open door previosuly. George Craig in particular was big on getting fans in and selling the vision. Without going into specifics the door was very much slammed in the face of the site when it came to trying to continue that kind of engagement. Likewise the club used to have an agreement with the various Hibs podcasts that they would provide guests to each on a rotational basis. I'm out the loop now so can't say for certain but looking at the output of the podcasts lately and the fact a couple have fell by the wayside it suggests this may no longer be the case. With so much now going through the Hibs Observer and Hibees Buzz it probably makes sense commercially and from a control aspect for Hibs but a lack of genuine fan produced content questioning the club directly is missed imo.

I'm more than aware that if we were sitting where Aberdeen are in the league then cold, overpriced pies, guests on podcasts and players not having sponsors would get far less air time but we're not in that position. And when we're not performing on the park it's natural some people will question every aspect of how the club is being run and link all of them back to the performance on the park whether that is justified or not.
Excellent post, totally agree with your comments re Starks Park.

[easty]

I've resisted posting on this thread thus far as I'm wary of just repeating the same old obsessions that I have done to death on other threads but.........

I think it can be true that the lack of a quality product on the park amplifies moans and groans about other stuff but equally whilst a better team might push the concerns to the background it doesn't mean the problems don't exist. I've read plenty threads in the past in which someone has questioned something about their experience in the stadium or with customer service at the club and been shouted down with 'oh we won today so you have to find something to moan about'. A better team creates a less receptive audience rather than an environment in which the other problems simply disappear.

I have no gripes with the money spent on hospitality. It's part of the modern game and when you look at the designs for any new stadium it's almost always the income that can be generated that is front and centre rather than the atmosphere that will be generated. The simple fact is most clubs are no longer really interested in your 'entry level' fan even if they have to pretend otherwise. It's worth remembering that when the FF stand was built in the mid 90s the then 'Forthview Suite' was built to a very high spec at the insistence of Tom Farmer. It was dated and hadn't been maintained but even back then money generation from such ventures was in the minds of those running the club. Where I have an issue is that the offering for regular fans hasn't even tried to keep pace with the more upmarket offerings. The kiosks are still terrible; terrible in terms of offering, service, quality, availability and pricing. They have always been terrible but big promises were made regarding them and they haven't been kept. The FF Upper had no soft drinks available at all before the game against whoever we played before St Mirren. I was at Starks Park at the weekend and every one of the 5 areas I listed above was streets ahead of ER. 6 different types of pie with good availability on each, little sweet tubs for the kids, Raith Rovers branded empire biscuits, plenty soft drinks and the usual hot dogs and whatever. Queue was lengthy but I was served in less than 5 minutes and everything was piping hot and tasty, all supplied by a local company. 4 pies, 2 hot dogs, 2 cold drinks and 2 tubs of sweets and I got change from £30. Not a chance at ER. If they can do it then so can we. Don't even get me started on there being no hot water in the toilets.

I also think we made a few decisions for a quick upturn in turnover but one that was so insignificant that it really makes me question whether the intangible benefit of connections with fans and fans groups wasn't worth more. As one example the player sponsorships. That used to be priced at a point where it was accessible to some families and a lot of supporters groups. It was an easy way to get those people into the club; there was an invite to the sponsors night and a couple of other events during the year. If memory serves it cost about £400 for a home, away or training kit. The price was hiked considerably and it priced places like this site out and I know a few supporters clubs were in a similar situation. A cursory glance at the official site suggests quite a few players have no sponsors and it's a handful of businesses sponsoring multiple players among those that do have them. For the sake of an upturn in income that is less than a couple of months wages for a first team player I would argue that ability to engage in a bit of face to face PR was worth more. More generally Hibs seemed more of an open door previosuly. George Craig in particular was big on getting fans in and selling the vision. Without going into specifics the door was very much slammed in the face of the site when it came to trying to continue that kind of engagement. Likewise the club used to have an agreement with the various Hibs podcasts that they would provide guests to each on a rotational basis. I'm out the loop now so can't say for certain but looking at the output of the podcasts lately and the fact a couple have fell by the wayside it suggests this may no longer be the case. With so much now going through the Hibs Observer and Hibees Buzz it probably makes sense commercially and from a control aspect for Hibs but a lack of genuine fan produced content questioning the club directly is missed imo.

I'm more than aware that if we were sitting where Aberdeen are in the league then cold, overpriced pies, guests on podcasts and players not having sponsors would get far less air time but we're not in that position. And when we're not performing on the park it's natural some people will question every aspect of how the club is being run and link all of them back to the performance on the park whether that is justified or not.

I've been arguing that it's only results that will change the overall feeling of connection between fans and club, but I agree with some of the things above.

The catering situation at Easter Road has been crap for years. It takes ages to get served, the quality of the food is pretty poor, and it's expensive. You compare it to Starks Park, and that shows what's possible and something that Hibs aren't getting right.

But...this (just like the hot water in the toilets issue) has been the case at Hibs for a long time, since the previous owners, previous club management. There was fan representation on the board back then and nothing was done.


I'm less concerned about the kit sponsorship stuff. Yeah, it's now priced out of the regular fans reach, but it was a tiny minority of Hibs fans that engaged with it anyway. If Hibs can make money from sponsorship in that avenue, I don't grudge the club doing so.

[Paulie Walnuts]

What is it that you think you're entitled to from the club?

Is it any more than a group of people doing their job as best they can?

And getting hammered for it by the internet.

Are they doing their jobs the best they can?

I’m not convinced the appointments in the summer point to that.

From the whole wide world of football for example, we appointed a sporting director who has never been a sporting director and just so happens to be the chairman’s pal. That’s not doing your job the best you can, that’s taking the easy option and jobs for the boys.

When we went to appoint a manager we found a guy who was already at the club. There is nothing to suggest he should be anywhere near the job, it was an easy option though and we went for it. We then needed a technical director. Funnily enough the best person for the job was at the club. Nice and easy that.

We identified the desperate need for a number 10 in the summer. We even decided we were willing to spend £1m to get one such was its importance. That number 10 went elsewhere and we hadn’t planned a back up option and ended up with nobody. We now have that glaring hole in our team and are sitting bottom of the league. That’s not trying their best, it’s half arsed.

We can even go back to Ron Gordon. We needed a head of recruitment. We gave the job to his son who had absolutely no business being in that job. Ron wasn’t doing his best, or what was best for the club, he was doing what was best for Ian Gordon.

Those running the club are completely incompetent, but on top of that, they’re not even maximising their abilities with the incompetence thrown in. They’ve taken easy options left right and centre, that’s not trying your best at all.

[Coco Bryce]

I've resisted posting on this thread thus far as I'm wary of just repeating the same old obsessions that I have done to death on other threads but.........

I think it can be true that the lack of a quality product on the park amplifies moans and groans about other stuff but equally whilst a better team might push the concerns to the background it doesn't mean the problems don't exist. I've read plenty threads in the past in which someone has questioned something about their experience in the stadium or with customer service at the club and been shouted down with 'oh we won today so you have to find something to moan about'. A better team creates a less receptive audience rather than an environment in which the other problems simply disappear.

I have no gripes with the money spent on hospitality. It's part of the modern game and when you look at the designs for any new stadium it's almost always the income that can be generated that is front and centre rather than the atmosphere that will be generated. The simple fact is most clubs are no longer really interested in your 'entry level' fan even if they have to pretend otherwise. It's worth remembering that when the FF stand was built in the mid 90s the then 'Forthview Suite' was built to a very high spec at the insistence of Tom Farmer. It was dated and hadn't been maintained but even back then money generation from such ventures was in the minds of those running the club. Where I have an issue is that the offering for regular fans hasn't even tried to keep pace with the more upmarket offerings. The kiosks are still terrible; terrible in terms of offering, service, quality, availability and pricing. They have always been terrible but big promises were made regarding them and they haven't been kept. The FF Upper had no soft drinks available at all before the game against whoever we played before St Mirren. I was at Starks Park at the weekend and every one of the 5 areas I listed above was streets ahead of ER. 6 different types of pie with good availability on each, little sweet tubs for the kids, Raith Rovers branded empire biscuits, plenty soft drinks and the usual hot dogs and whatever. Queue was lengthy but I was served in less than 5 minutes and everything was piping hot and tasty, all supplied by a local company. 4 pies, 2 hot dogs, 2 cold drinks and 2 tubs of sweets and I got change from £30. Not a chance at ER. If they can do it then so can we. Don't even get me started on there being no hot water in the toilets.

I also think we made a few decisions for a quick upturn in turnover but one that was so insignificant that it really makes me question whether the intangible benefit of connections with fans and fans groups wasn't worth more. As one example the player sponsorships. That used to be priced at a point where it was accessible to some families and a lot of supporters groups. It was an easy way to get those people into the club; there was an invite to the sponsors night and a couple of other events during the year. If memory serves it cost about £400 for a home, away or training kit. The price was hiked considerably and it priced places like this site out and I know a few supporters clubs were in a similar situation. A cursory glance at the official site suggests quite a few players have no sponsors and it's a handful of businesses sponsoring multiple players among those that do have them. For the sake of an upturn in income that is less than a couple of months wages for a first team player I would argue that ability to engage in a bit of face to face PR was worth more. More generally Hibs seemed more of an open door previosuly. George Craig in particular was big on getting fans in and selling the vision. Without going into specifics the door was very much slammed in the face of the site when it came to trying to continue that kind of engagement. Likewise the club used to have an agreement with the various Hibs podcasts that they would provide guests to each on a rotational basis. I'm out the loop now so can't say for certain but looking at the output of the podcasts lately and the fact a couple have fell by the wayside it suggests this may no longer be the case. With so much now going through the Hibs Observer and Hibees Buzz it probably makes sense commercially and from a control aspect for Hibs but a lack of genuine fan produced content questioning the club directly is missed imo.

I'm more than aware that if we were sitting where Aberdeen are in the league then cold, overpriced pies, guests on podcasts and players not having sponsors would get far less air time but we're not in that position. And when we're not performing on the park it's natural some people will question every aspect of how the club is being run and link all of them back to the performance on the park whether that is justified or not.

Best post on this thread :agree:

[Centre Hawf]

For me, it's not so much the hospitality stuff I have a problem with, to be clear I don't use it either, but just the general lack of engagement with the support. it's also fair to say that if the team were doing better, a lot of this disgruntlement would probably subside. But even so, the Club are not engaging with the support, other than the odd statement, and there are no current avenues for any sort of dialogue. The Board doesn't look down the way and there is a feeling, and I share this, that the only engagement is commercial and designed to take my money off me.

It's a win-win for the Board to engage us in some sort of official capacity: the support would feel less taken for granted for a start, and the club would be making efforts to allow us to air our views, keep us onside, and give us some involvement.

I just can't see why this wouldn't be a good thing all round.

I do agree that the club are quite commercially orientated and it can leave us feeling like customers now instead of loyal supporters or something similar. But as PrettyBoy says a lot of these things tend to be overlooked or focused on depending on results at the time. I think if we were to take a step back and objectively look at why the club have done the hospitality and the screens on the scale they have it probably shouldn't be used as a stick to beat the club with like it so easily is when we discuss these things.

You'll see people say "Don't have a good goalie but at least we have the screens" "Maybe the Pioneers lounge can play up front" stuff like that is just immature and to me isn't helpful to the situation we're in. No one has gone into the summer window taking away the budget for a new left back and put it into a new bar in the famous five. I believe that for the most part the hospitality is sold out consistently so there has been a demand for it and must surely be generating a profit for the football club to in turn aid in getting a better team on the park in time.

The reality of our situation is that financially Hearts and Aberdeen remain ahead of us and sometimes it's not even about closing the gap it's just maintaining it, especially when we're doing a lot of other things so piss poorly. Things like advertising boards and fancy hospitality suites for people who want to throw their money at it for days out help us not get left too far behind financially.

There are plenty of other things to critique the club for in it's quest for commercial success but I'm not hugely sure that's where I'd be focusing my frustrations at the moment.

[matty_f]

I've been arguing that it's only results that will change the overall feeling of connection between fans and club, but I agree with some of the things above.

The catering situation at Easter Road has been crap for years. It takes ages to get served, the quality of the food is pretty poor, and it's expensive. You compare it to Starks Park, and that shows what's possible and something that Hibs aren't getting right.

But...this (just like the hot water in the toilets issue) has been the case at Hibs for a long time, since the previous owners, previous club management. There was fan representation on the board back then and nothing was done.


I'm less concerned about the kit sponsorship stuff. Yeah, it's now priced out of the regular fans reach, but it was a tiny minority of Hibs fans that engaged with it anyway. If Hibs can make money from sponsorship in that avenue, I don't grudge the club doing so.
I agree on the sponsorship bit, it’s always been out of reach for some folk, so it’s just more that it’s out of reach for now but I don’t really have much of an issue with the club trying to squeeze what they can out of these things if it helps the team - it’s not like that money is walking out the club into shareholder’s pockets. We see where it’s spent.


I do think engagement is important though, and i appreciate that they are a bit of a unique example, but you look at Wrexham as an example of a club who have brought a community along for the ride with them - they’ve had results to go with it but having two celebrity owners coming in and shaking things up could easily have totally alienated fans - you look at the scepticism that still exists towards the Gordons’ or Foley’s motives for buying into a club, or (not literally) closer to home, the protests against Foley’s involvement from Lorient fans - it’s not a given that fans will welcome new owners in with open arms.

Hibs are miles off where they could be on some fairly basic things - we get soundbite interviews previewing or post games. Inconsistent output for things like HQ or the official club podcast - even the lack of an equivalent to the content Tom Zanelli used to put out which showed a funny side to the players etc is a really easy win for the club but it’s sorely lacking.

IMHO there’s a really exciting story to tell at the club just now, we’re approaching our 150th anniversary, there’s big change happening off the park and “game changing” investment into the club - despite results being piss poor today that future still has the chance to be exciting and ambitious.

Yet we know almost nothing about it.

Stuff like Working Together has a place as well, and while I defended the club earlier by pointing out the great stuff the Community Foundation do - they don’t shout about it. There’s a thread on the Bounce that’s regularly updated but I don’t think there’s an equivalent one here.

Through Longbangers, we’ve offered to help promote the women’s team and despite the club wanting to do it, we’ve got to the point where we’ve given up chasing after promised calls haven’t happened etc.

It’s just really lacklustre.

[matty_f]

I do agree that the club are quite commercially orientated and it can leave us feeling like customers now instead of loyal supporters or something similar. But as PrettyBoy says a lot of these things tend to be overlooked or focused on depending on results at the time. I think if we were to take a step back and objectively look at why the club have done the hospitality and the screens on the scale they have it probably shouldn't be used as a stick to beat the club with like it so easily is when we discuss these things.

You'll see people say "Don't have a good goalie but at least we have the screens" "Maybe the Pioneers lounge can play up front" stuff like that is just immature and to me isn't helpful to the situation we're in. No one has gone into the summer window taking away the budget for a new left back and put it into a new bar in the famous five. I believe that for the most part the hospitality is sold out consistently so there has been a demand for it and must surely be generating a profit for the football club to in turn aid in getting a better team on the park in time.

The reality of our situation is that financially Hearts and Aberdeen remain ahead of us and sometimes it's not even about closing the gap it's just maintaining it, especially when we're doing a lot of other things so piss poorly. Things like advertising boards and fancy hospitality suites for people who want to throw their money at it for days out help us not get left too far behind financially.

There are plenty of other things to critique the club for in it's quest for commercial success but I'm not hugely sure that's where I'd be focusing my frustrations at the moment.
Cracking post.

[andrew70]

I agree on the sponsorship bit, it’s always been out of reach for some folk, so it’s just more that it’s out of reach for now but I don’t really have much of an issue with the club trying to squeeze what they can out of these things if it helps the team - it’s not like that money is walking out the club into shareholder’s pockets. We see where it’s spent.


I do think engagement is important though, and i appreciate that they are a bit of a unique example, but you look at Wrexham as an example of a club who have brought a community along for the ride with them - they’ve had results to go with it but having two celebrity owners coming in and shaking things up could easily have totally alienated fans - you look at the scepticism that still exists towards the Gordons’ or Foley’s motives for buying into a club, or (not literally) closer to home, the protests against Foley’s involvement from Lorient fans - it’s not a given that fans will welcome new owners in with open arms.

Hibs are miles off where they could be on some fairly basic things - we get soundbite interviews previewing or post games. Inconsistent output for things like HQ or the official club podcast - even the lack of an equivalent to the content Tom Zanelli used to put out which showed a funny side to the players etc is a really easy win for the club but it’s sorely lacking.

IMHO there’s a really exciting story to tell at the club just now, we’re approaching our 150th anniversary, there’s big change happening off the park and “game changing” investment into the club - despite results being piss poor today that future still has the chance to be exciting and ambitious.

Yet we know almost nothing about it.

Stuff like Working Together has a place as well, and while I defended the club earlier by pointing out the great stuff the Community Foundation do - they don’t shout about it. There’s a thread on the Bounce that’s regularly updated but I don’t think there’s an equivalent one here.

Through Longbangers, we’ve offered to help promote the women’s team and despite the club wanting to do it, we’ve got to the point where we’ve given up chasing after promised calls haven’t happened etc.

It’s just really lacklustre.

I have been constantly at them to do some writing for the youth teams. Adam
has responded twice with the same generic ‘there’s a lot going on’ email.

I will try again soon but there’s so much more the club could be doing.

[andrew70]

I do agree that the club are quite commercially orientated and it can leave us feeling like customers now instead of loyal supporters or something similar. But as PrettyBoy says a lot of these things tend to be overlooked or focused on depending on results at the time. I think if we were to take a step back and objectively look at why the club have done the hospitality and the screens on the scale they have it probably shouldn't be used as a stick to beat the club with like it so easily is when we discuss these things.

You'll see people say "Don't have a good goalie but at least we have the screens" "Maybe the Pioneers lounge can play up front" stuff like that is just immature and to me isn't helpful to the situation we're in. No one has gone into the summer window taking away the budget for a new left back and put it into a new bar in the famous five. I believe that for the most part the hospitality is sold out consistently so there has been a demand for it and must surely be generating a profit for the football club to in turn aid in getting a better team on the park in time.

The reality of our situation is that financially Hearts and Aberdeen remain ahead of us and sometimes it's not even about closing the gap it's just maintaining it, especially when we're doing a lot of other things so piss poorly. Things like advertising boards and fancy hospitality suites for people who want to throw their money at it for days out help us not get left too far behind financially.

There are plenty of other things to critique the club for in it's quest for commercial success but I'm not hugely sure that's where I'd be focusing my frustrations at the moment.


Absolutely spot on they can’t just forget their commercial requirements because we are playing badly. That would be incredibly negligent.

To their credit they are doing very well commercially.

[Hibiza]

Saturday : no game , saved a fiver.

[Just_Jimmy]

Since it's so commercial and all they care about is money, stop the money. Then they'll notice.



Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Davy Mac]

Are they doing their jobs the best they can?

I’m not convinced the appointments in the summer point to that.

From the whole wide world of football for example, we appointed a sporting director who has never been a sporting director and just so happens to be the chairman’s pal. That’s not doing your job the best you can, that’s taking the easy option and jobs for the boys.

When we went to appoint a manager we found a guy who was already at the club. There is nothing to suggest he should be anywhere near the job, it was an easy option though and we went for it. We then needed a technical director. Funnily enough the best person for the job was at the club. Nice and easy that.

We identified the desperate need for a number 10 in the summer. We even decided we were willing to spend £1m to get one such was its importance. That number 10 went elsewhere and we hadn’t planned a back up option and ended up with nobody. We now have that glaring hole in our team and are sitting bottom of the league. That’s not trying their best, it’s half arsed.

We can even go back to Ron Gordon. We needed a head of recruitment. We gave the job to his son who had absolutely no business being in that job. Ron wasn’t doing his best, or what was best for the club, he was doing what was best for Ian Gordon.

Those running the club are completely incompetent, but on top of that, they’re not even maximising their abilities with the incompetence thrown in. They’ve taken easy options left right and centre, that’s not trying your best at all.

The most accurate and heart felt post i've read for ages on this site.

[GreenCastle]

The more I read this thread the more I realise how out of touch the staff at the club are with the fan base.

Plenty of examples like Wrexham and others as someone mentioned about bringing people together. Hibs claim to be big on community but are they really linked with the club enough? Seems the foundation does many good things but surely there can be a better link and to engage more fans in the area on a wider scale. Restarting “working together” groups would be a start. The thought of these muppets running the club sorting the 150 anniversary gives me the fear.

Our current decision makers have made the gap between staff - players and fans bigger than ever.

Just look at Aberdeen and their social media - the turn around is like night and day.

We are just plodding along with the same folk failing at their comfortable jobs but still getting monthly salary payments hoping things improve but the same mistakes and shocking recruitment of players / staff and we are bottom of the league and only heading one direction.

Until serious change at the club and someone actually shows some SERIOUS LEADERSHIP at the very top we will continue to have poor standards at the club.

I keep thinking it’s hit rock bottom but every week something else seems to go wrong and the situation becomes worse.

[PHeffernan]

The more I read this thread the more I realise how out of touch the staff at the club are with the fan base.

Plenty of examples like Wrexham and others as someone mentioned about bringing people together. Hibs claim to be big on community but are they really linked with the club enough? Seems the foundation does many good things but surely there can be a better link and to engage more fans in the area on a wider scale. Restarting “working together” groups would be a start. The thought of these muppets running the club sorting the 150 anniversary gives me the fear.

Our current decision makers have made the gap between staff - players and fans bigger than ever.

Just look at Aberdeen and their social media - the turn around is like night and day.

We are just plodding along with the same folk failing at their comfortable jobs but still getting monthly salary payments hoping things improve but the same mistakes and shocking recruitment of players / staff and we are bottom of the league and only heading one direction.

Until serious change at the club and someone actually shows some SERIOUS LEADERSHIP at the very top we will continue to have poor standards at the club.

I keep thinking it’s hit rock bottom but every week something else seems to go wrong and the situation becomes worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ovzN-0hJgI

[superfurryhibby]

Saturday : no game , saved a fiver.

Not sure whether you find your contributions funny ( I hope so), but is this kind of monotonous pish the best you can muster?

[CapitalGreen]

The more I read this thread the more I realise how out of touch the staff at the club are with the fan base.

Plenty of examples like Wrexham and others as someone mentioned about bringing people together. Hibs claim to be big on community but are they really linked with the club enough? Seems the foundation does many good things but surely there can be a better link and to engage more fans in the area on a wider scale. Restarting “working together” groups would be a start. The thought of these muppets running the club sorting the 150 anniversary gives me the fear.

Our current decision makers have made the gap between staff - players and fans bigger than ever.

Just look at Aberdeen and their social media - the turn around is like night and day.

We are just plodding along with the same folk failing at their comfortable jobs but still getting monthly salary payments hoping things improve but the same mistakes and shocking recruitment of players / staff and we are bottom of the league and only heading one direction.

Until serious change at the club and someone actually shows some SERIOUS LEADERSHIP at the very top we will continue to have poor standards at the club.

I keep thinking it’s hit rock bottom but every week something else seems to go wrong and the situation becomes worse.

Wrexham wave been winning every weeks for the previous 4 years, that’s why they have brought people together.

Aberdeen are winning most weeks this season, that’s why their social media is positive. Only 8 months ago it was absolutely toxic.

[Centre Hawf]

Wrexham wave been winning every weeks for the previous 4 years, that’s why they have brought people together.

Aberdeen are winning most weeks this season, that’s why their social media is positive. Only 8 months ago it was absolutely toxic.

Similar to Celtic and Rangers you only need to look at the contrast in their social media. I know Celtic fans generally have a dislike for their board despite their success, but it gets drowned out easier with positivity thanks to winning pretty much every domestic trophy they could have for the last 10 years.

Meanwhile Rangers social media is fairly toxic because they've been rank rotten. It's a simple science, win games drowns out toxicity, doesn't necessarily eliminate it entirely but people will forget about the price of an East Stand stone or a cold pie if they've put a team on the park that makes you proud.