Going against the grain slightly...

[He's here!]

I'm probably one of the most negative and pessimistic posters on here when it comes to the state of Hibs these days.

However, it seems to me that too much flak is being thrown at our two most recent results. Sure, the performances weren't things of beauty, but a derby and a midweek trip to the Highlands are fixtures which Hibs have not, historically, simply showed up for and taken three points. Far from it. On that basis, drawing both games is not the worst outcome by any means. Personally I'd have taken those results beforehand.

Most importantly, I feel, is that while we all have our reservations about this team, Hibs did at least show the required mettle to dig out those results and they look to be playing for the manager. The key is to follow that up and finally dig out a win this weekend. That would put us on 10 points and very much in the mix with the other also-rans this season.

I suspect the season is already something of a write-off in terms of even a top six place, but the priority for now is to creep away from the drop zone. That may not sound like much, but it might just be enough to allow this team to unwind to the extent they can show they're capable of more than they've shown so far. A decent January signing or two, plus (hopefully) the return of Bowie in the new year, and we might just start to see something more positive for the future.

Bottom line, the cack-handed way we've burned through managers over the last few years and the accompanying rubbish we're too often subjected to on the pitch can't go on. I'd love to see a more savvy owner sweep in and take over from the Gordons, but we're stuck with them for now. He may prove not to be up to the job, but it seems to me we need to persevere with David Gray and hope that he can start to build on the fragile foundations of the last two games. A hell of a lot rests on this weekend though.

[Greenbeard]

See where you are coming from, but most on here will be eager to shoot you down.
Re all that has been said about players coming in not being any better than those we let go, had Hibs stuck with the likes of P McGinn, Hanlon, Stevenson, Gogic, Doidge, Vente(?) etc, I doubt we'd be in the drop zone. But neither would we be up there challenging for 3rd/4th. It was right to try and improve on players that would have Hibs as a mid-table team. We just haven't signed players who have improved the team. Said it before but we need to invest more heavily in getting in just one or two higher level players - a Sauzee type - even if we will only get a couple of seasons out of them with no sell-on, rather than taking gambles on unproven players who might progress and make us some dosh with increased value.

[ekhibee]

I'm probably one of the most negative and pessimistic posters on here when it comes to the state of Hibs these days.

However, it seems to me that too much flak is being thrown at our two most recent results. Sure, the performances weren't things of beauty, but a derby and a midweek trip to the Highlands are fixtures which Hibs have not, historically, simply showed up for and taken three points. Far from it. On that basis, drawing both games is not the worst outcome by any means. Personally I'd have taken those results beforehand.

Most importantly, I feel, is that while we all have our reservations about this team, Hibs did at least show the required mettle to dig out those results and they look to be playing for the manager. The key is to follow that up and finally dig out a win this weekend. That would put us on 10 points and very much in the mix with the other also-rans this season.

I suspect the season is already something of a write-off in terms of even a top six place, but the priority for now is to creep away from the drop zone. That may not sound like much, but it might just be enough to allow this team to unwind to the extent they can show they're capable of more than they've shown so far. A decent January signing or two, plus (hopefully) the return of Bowie in the new year, and we might just start to see something more positive for the future.

Bottom line, the cack-handed way we've burned through managers over the last few years and the accompanying rubbish we're too often subjected to on the pitch can't go on. I'd love to see a more savvy owner sweep in and take over from the Gordons, but we're stuck with them for now. He may prove not to be up to the job, but it seems to me we need to persevere with David Gray and hope that he can start to build on the fragile foundations of the last two games. A hell of a lot rests on this weekend though.

Maybe you could just've said: the last 2 results were no bad?

[Unseen work]

We’re getting annoyed at the last two performances because that appears to be our limit.

Both games we’ve been bad, really really bad however created a couple of chances.

We’ve drawn both games.

If we were 4th in the league, the two results may be viewed differently. But we’re not, last night we went into the game bottom of the league, desperate for three points and a win to get us up the table. To show a bit of energy, fight and quality.

That team to me last night look like they have no idea what they’re doing, no idea the position they’re in and no idea that they’re actually looking like the worst team in the league and one that will get relegated.

The frustration isn’t because the last 2 games, it’s from the form and performances we’ve shown since the Kelty game.

1 win and 7 points from the first 10 league games. Lost to Kelty which meant we got a harder draw in Celtic in the cup which we’re now out of.

There is absolutely no positive spin on what is happening at the moment, let alone us getting 2 points from 2 games against Hearts and County!

Finally - we have recruited poor managers over the last couple of years. But the worst mistake we can make is sticking with the poorest one out the lot because we don’t want to sack another. The season is nowhere near being over and 4th are 9 points ahead of us, a decent manager closes that gap quickly.

[HarpOnHibee]

I could deal with us drawing both games if we were doing well in previous fixtures, sitting in a comfortable place in the table. It's the fact that these were games that we really needed to get wins from and we didn't. Generally due to the same reasons that we haven't in the previous fixtures.

[Trinity Hibee]

I could deal with us drawing both games if we were doing well in previous fixtures, sitting in a comfortable place in the table. It's the fact that these were games that we really needed to get wins from and we didn't. Generally due to the same reasons that we haven't in the previous fixtures.

This sums it up.

[Broken Gnome]

If we see anything to suggest we're close to turning the majority of these draws into three points rather than one or zero, it would be easier to be positive.

Unless there's substantial improvement of change, I can't see us being anything better than difficult to beat, rather than a team that be better expected to regularly win games.

[Smartie]

A horrible, familiar phrase is threatening to rear it's head again here - "fine margins".

The truth is - almost all of our games have been coming down to fine margins, with us just falling on the wrong end of those margins. IIRC we moaned about the fine margins towards the end of Jack Ross' time with us, when we repeatedly lost games narrowly.

Sadly it appears many people appear to be losing confidence in our ability to turn those fine margins in our favour and we badly need them to do fall in our favour soon.

A win on Sunday though - and you can probably paint a rosy-ish taint onto a run of 5 or 6 games. On the other hand, if we lose, it's very easy to paint a grim picture.

We're only a win or two away from the complexion of the season (and of Gray's tenure) changing altogether. We're also only a defeat or two away from finding ourselves marooned at the bottom.

I have issues with everything from the Gordons / Kensell, the recruitment and appointment of Malky MacKay through to a few proper achilles heels in our team and a collection of players it looks very difficult to get scoring goals.

Unfortunately it seems the manager is the only person who carries any sort of accountability and sacking him is the only solution we can ever see for our problems.

[wookie70]

I get where the OP is coming from but you could also describe those results as failing to beat the worst team in the league at home and then failing to beat a team with far less resources than us. They weren't the worse results and my fear is there isn't a team in the league I expect to defeat. We got lucky getting St Js at home when they were still managed by Levein and despite having opportunities we have failed to beat anyone else. I don't really see that changing so it seems inevitable a change of manager will happen.

[HarpOnHibee]

A horrible, familiar phrase is threatening to rear it's head again here - "fine margins".

The truth is - almost all of our games have been coming down to fine margins, with us just falling on the wrong end of those margins. IIRC we moaned about the fine margins towards the end of Jack Ross' time with us, when we repeatedly lost games narrowly.

Sadly it appears many people appear to be losing confidence in our ability to turn those fine margins in our favour and we badly need them to do fall in our favour soon.

A win on Sunday though - and you can probably paint a rosy-ish taint onto a run of 5 or 6 games. On the other hand, if we lose, it's very easy to paint a grim picture.

We're only a win or two away from the complexion of the season (and of Gray's tenure) changing altogether. We're also only a defeat or two away from finding ourselves marooned at the bottom.

I have issues with everything from the Gordons / Kensell, the recruitment and appointment of Malky MacKay through to a few proper achilles heels in our team and a collection of players it looks very difficult to get scoring goals.

Unfortunately it seems the manager is the only person who carries any sort of accountability and sacking him is the only solution we can ever see for our problems.

Sadly, it's not simply a case of "fine margins". Our style of play makes it exceedingly difficult to beat anybody. Teams need only to sit back and watch us waste our time before handing possession back over to them. The only reason we got a draw yesterday is because of how poor Ross County are in attack themselves. If they'd had any quality up front at all, we wouldn't have taken anything out of the game. We may get the odd result in our favour over the course of the season, but it's not instantly going to turn our losing formula into a winning one. The formula itself needs to change and change quick.

[Hibiza]

Going against the grain is fine , should be encouraged. Please let's sign a creative midfielder or it'll fingers crossed throughout the season.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

On the plus side I was able to better focus on making a Swiss Roll with my laddie whilst the borefest was on the telly box

My happy clappometer has swung towards the indifferent.

For all that I’ve pointed at Aberdeen being a bit of a basketcase of sorts too, it does go to show that if you click and turn it around good times can be just around the corner. We’ve been starved of that for far too long. There must be a analogy/ word for it - like the caged Polar bear that once freed still goes about as if in a cage. Our lean times restrict our outlook.

[CJHibby]

VP-you should be honing your son's inherited samba skills for the next Hibs generation instead :hibees 🇧🇷

[Carheenlea]

We’re getting annoyed at the last two performances because that appears to be our limit.

Both games we’ve been bad, really really bad however created a couple of chances.

We’ve drawn both games.

If we were 4th in the league, the two results may be viewed differently. But we’re not, last night we went into the game bottom of the league, desperate for three points and a win to get us up the table. To show a bit of energy, fight and quality.

That team to me last night look like they have no idea what they’re doing, no idea the position they’re in and no idea that they’re actually looking like the worst team in the league and one that will get relegated.

The frustration isn’t because the last 2 games, it’s from the form and performances we’ve shown since the Kelty game.

1 win and 7 points from the first 10 league games. Lost to Kelty which meant we got a harder draw in Celtic in the cup which we’re now out of.

There is absolutely no positive spin on what is happening at the moment, let alone us getting 2 points from 2 games against Hearts and County!

Finally - we have recruited poor managers over the last couple of years. But the worst mistake we can make is sticking with the poorest one out the lot because we don’t want to sack another. The season is nowhere near being over and 4th are 9 points ahead of us, a decent manager closes that gap quickly.

If we were 4th in the league going into the previous two games we probably wouldn’t still be sitting at 4th in the league after the two results.

We would be lamenting a missed opportunity just as many are doing now.

[Smartie]

Sadly, it's not simply a case of "fine margins". Our style of play makes it exceedingly difficult to beat anybody. Teams need only to sit back and watch us waste our time before handing possession back over to them. The only reason we got a draw yesterday is because of how poor Ross County are in attack themselves. If they'd had any quality up front at all, we wouldn't have taken anything out of the game. We may get the odd result in our favour over the course of the season, but it's not instantly going to turn our losing formula into a winning one. The formula itself needs to change and change quick.

Our style of play makes it exceedingly difficult for anybody to beat us though and even the games we've been losing we've been losing narrowly.

It's a tweak from being "1-0 to the Arsenal" stuff.

I'm not saying this is great, or even good enough. I hate the impotence of our attacking play right now. But I don't think it can be denied that the majority of our games have come down to fine margins - even the one we did win, we didn't exactly play St Johnstone off the park.

[Since90+2]

A positive is our next 3 games are, you'd like to think anyway, games where we can potentially pick up a few points.

Add that to the fact Hearts have Celtic, Ranges and Aberdeen in 3 of the next 4, we could potentially put a bit of daylight between us and them (who are very possibly going to be bottom going into December).

[CJHibby]

Concentrating on Hibs(not interested in Hearts), we should be looking and learning how and why Aberdeen and Celtic are doing well. They clearly are more energetic and dynamic than others by quite a margin. We need to get 'a rocket' and speed up what we do. We have great attacking options but underutilise them with our lethargic play. I am sure we'd beat most teams in the league with a faster approach and more attacking intent.

[Since90+2]

Concentrating on Hibs(not interested in Hearts), we should be looking and learning how and why Aberdeen and Celtic are doing well. They clearly are more energetic and dynamic than others by quite a margin. We need to get 'a rocket' and speed up what we do. We have great attacking options but underutilise them with our lethargic play. I am sure we'd beat most teams in the league with a faster approach and more attacking intent.

Considering we seem to be in a relegation battle and Hearts are currently on the only team worse than us, I think it's quite relative how they perform over the next few weeks.

[Smartie]

Concentrating on Hibs(not interested in Hearts), we should be looking and learning how and why Aberdeen and Celtic are doing well. They clearly are more energetic and dynamic than others by quite a margin. We need to get 'a rocket' and speed up what we do. We have great attacking options but underutilise them with our lethargic play. I am sure we'd beat most teams in the league with a faster approach and more attacking intent.

Agreed, especially at home imo.

The points made about the point at Dingwall being decent is valid, but we really need to be beating teams at home and to do so we need to be playing with much more tempo.

[HarpOnHibee]

Our style of play makes it exceedingly difficult for anybody to beat us though and even the games we've been losing we've been losing narrowly.

It's a tweak from being "1-0 to the Arsenal" stuff.

I'm not saying this is great, or even good enough. I hate the impotence of our attacking play right now. But I don't think it can be denied that the majority of our games have come down to fine margins - even the one we did win, we didn't exactly play St Johnstone off the park.

I see where you're coming from and respect your opinion. But I don't fully agree with you. The games we've lost haven't been down to some coin flip going against us, they've been due to some of the worst defending in the league. The games with other teams seeming close is no coincidence either. They know exactly how to play against us. They know we'll be wasteful on the ball, they know we'll resort to half chance efforts and they know we'll have hiccups in defence if they have the players capable of counter attacking with pace. Teams only need to bide their time when they're playing us and they know they're almost guaranteed all 3 points if they have any sort of quality in attack. We may look like we're in control when we have high possession of the ball, but opposition teams are happy for us to look like we're in control of the game, when we really aren't. Because they know we're going nowhere with it and all they need is one high quality chance against us to put the ball in our net. So this is exactly how teams play against us intentionally and it works.

[Unseen work]

Our style of play makes it exceedingly difficult for anybody to beat us though and even the games we've been losing we've been losing narrowly.

It's a tweak from being "1-0 to the Arsenal" stuff.

I'm not saying this is great, or even good enough. I hate the impotence of our attacking play right now. But I don't think it can be denied that the majority of our games have come down to fine margins - even the one we did win, we didn't exactly play St Johnstone off the park.

Our style making us exceedingly hard to beat is some take considering we’ve lost 5 league games out of 10 and also lost to Kelty

[Donegal Hibby]

Our style making us exceedingly hard to beat is some take considering we’ve lost 5 league games out of 10 and also lost to Kelty

I suppose you have a point there though two against the OF ,one we were unlucky in and two where we went down to ten men , maybe that’s what the OP means about fine margins even if it’s been a poor start.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Our style making us exceedingly hard to beat is some take considering we’ve lost 5 league games out of 10 and also lost to Kelty

:agree:

We’re definitely not exceedingly hard to beat.

[HarpOnHibee]

I suppose you have a point there though two against the OF ,one we were unlucky in and two where we went down to ten men , maybe that’s what the OP means about fine margins even if it’s been a poor start.

It's not fine margins though. It's individual moments that could have been avoided. It's individual moments that make and break games for a team. Luck has nothing to do with it either. We waste too much time in possession, making unnecessary passes back and forth between midfield and defence allowing the opposition more than enough time to get back into their defensive positions, further allowing them to break down any potential attacks. But instead of cutting out the pointless time wasting passes, we commit more players forward instead. The opposition then wins the ball back (because of course they do, all of their defenders and midfielders are in their defensive positions as we've given them all the time they need). They then attack quickly with efficient, effective passing while our players are caught out of position due to pushing further forward. The result is either the complete slicing of our defence, leading to a chance that's almost certain to go in or a late lunge by a player that's caught out of position, leading to a potential second booking or red card.

The issue isn't luck. it's not our fortunes that need to change, its our entire approach to the game. Waiting for an upturn in our fortunes season after season should serve as a hard lesson in futility. We're waiting for something that doesn't work to miraculously work some day, instead of addressing it.

[Smartie]

Our style making us exceedingly hard to beat is some take considering we’ve lost 5 league games out of 10 and also lost to Kelty

It’s not the number of defeats but the nature of them - that’s the point I’m making.

Nobody’s pumping us, we’re either drawing or losing close games.

That’s where my fine margins chat comes from.

I’m not going to defend the indefensibly poor attacking play of the past few games. But if we continue to give away the number of chances we have over the past few games whilst finding something better going forward then we’ll start picking up a lot more points. That’s a fine margin, not trying to find 7 or 8 new players or turn around 3 or 4 goal defeats.

[GreenCastle]

It’s not the number of defeats but the nature of them - that’s the point I’m making.

Nobody’s pumping us, we’re either drawing or losing close games.

That’s where my fine margins chat comes from.

I’m not going to defend the indefensibly poor attacking play of the past few games. But if we continue to give away the number of chances we have over the past few games whilst finding something better going forward then we’ll start picking up a lot more points. That’s a fine margin, not trying to find 7 or 8 new players or turn around 3 or 4 goal defeats.

St Mirren 2nd half was a pumping.
Celtic at home we didn’t have a shot on target compared to their 7.

You defend as a team from the front - but obviously individuals are responsible.

I really don’t like the individual mistakes line as often it’s more than one player who is responsible.

2 wins in 13 is woeful. Ok rangers x1, Celtic x2 but haven’t played Aberdeen yet and but we should be doing better and patience is running out with many and understandably so.

[HarpOnHibee]

It’s not the number of defeats but the nature of them - that’s the point I’m making.

Nobody’s pumping us, we’re either drawing or losing close games.

That’s where my fine margins chat comes from.

I’m not going to defend the indefensibly poor attacking play of the past few games. But if we continue to give away the number of chances we have over the past few games whilst finding something better going forward then we’ll start picking up a lot more points. That’s a fine margin, not trying to find 7 or 8 new players or turn around 3 or 4 goal defeats.

Chances are not a numbers game when it comes to scoring goals. One team can have 20+ chances in a game and another team can have 3 chances and still win the game 2 or 3-0. Not because of some bizarre level of luck, but because the quality of their chances were far better. The team with 20+ chances were ultimately limited to half chances. They wasted too much time on the ball making pointless, needless passes, giving the opposition team time to organize their defences and that limited them to chances that had little to no chance of hitting the back of the net, despite the sheer number of them. Meanwhile the team with only 3 chances, bided their time. They waited for the other team to commit too many players forward, then caught them out on the break, cutting through their ill organized and out of position defence, setting up chances that would be extremely difficult not to score from. Resulting in a 2 or 3-0 win.

So you have a team with 20+ chances with the lion share of possession and a team with limited possession in the game with only a handful of chances and a score line that's ultimately comfortable in the latter teams favour.

On paper, looking purely at the match statistics, it may give the impression that they just got really "lucky". But what really won them the game were the superior tactics and exposing the weaknesses of the other team. In other words, they did exactly what they needed to do to win the game. The match statistics being ultimately irrelevant.

The problem with us is that we've generally tended to have this "create as many chances as possible in a game" mentality. Automatically associating a higher shot count with more goals and a better chance of winning. Not considering the impact this mentality can have on the actual quality of the chances.

Having a large degree of chances in a game is great when the quality of the chances are high. But when that number comes at the cost of the quality of the chances, then having lots of chances becomes fundamentally meaningless when they're ultimately reduced to "hit and hope on sight".

We had very few chances against Ross County. But honestly, we could have been that team with 20+ shots at goal and still not scored, because we're not effectively cutting though defences to set up regular (almost impossible to miss) chances. Instead we're hitting and hoping when we run out of ideas.

[One Day Soon]

It's not fine margins though. It's individual moments that could have been avoided. It's individual moments that make and break games for a team. Luck has nothing to do with it either. We waste too much time in possession, making unnecessary passes back and forth between midfield and defence allowing the opposition more than enough time to get back into their defensive positions, further allowing them to break down any potential attacks. But instead of cutting out the pointless time wasting passes, we commit more players forward instead. The opposition then wins the ball back (because of course they do, all of their defenders and midfielders are in their defensive positions as we've given them all the time they need). They then attack quickly with efficient, effective passing while our players are caught out of position due to pushing further forward. The result is either the complete slicing of our defence, leading to a chance that's almost certain to go in or a late lunge by a player that's caught out of position, leading to a potential second booking or red card.

The issue isn't luck. it's not our fortunes that need to change, its our entire approach to the game. Waiting for an upturn in our fortunes season after season should serve as a hard lesson in futility. We're waiting for something that doesn't work to miraculously work some day, instead of addressing it.

Great post.

[21May16]

It's not fine margins though. It's individual moments that could have been avoided. It's individual moments that make and break games for a team. Luck has nothing to do with it either. We waste too much time in possession, making unnecessary passes back and forth between midfield and defence allowing the opposition more than enough time to get back into their defensive positions, further allowing them to break down any potential attacks. But instead of cutting out the pointless time wasting passes, we commit more players forward instead. The opposition then wins the ball back (because of course they do, all of their defenders and midfielders are in their defensive positions as we've given them all the time they need). They then attack quickly with efficient, effective passing while our players are caught out of position due to pushing further forward. The result is either the complete slicing of our defence, leading to a chance that's almost certain to go in or a late lunge by a player that's caught out of position, leading to a potential second booking or red card.

The issue isn't luck. it's not our fortunes that need to change, its our entire approach to the game. Waiting for an upturn in our fortunes season after season should serve as a hard lesson in futility. We're waiting for something that doesn't work to miraculously work some day, instead of addressing it.

Absolutely spot on.

Some have us the unlikeliest team in world football. A one off is luck, twice pushing it. When it’s consistent it needs to be addressed and it seems to be neglected for absolutely ages now.

[Ronniekirk]

We have brought in lots of forward players but none look like they will score on a Regular basis .Bowie may have been the exception if he hadn’t go injured
Gray is just putting four forward players in the team and hoping something will happen Montgomery was doing similar
Gray talking up Campbell as our no 10 was never going to work
Gray keeps talking about the players looking short on confidence and not starting games with intensityv, ,but there has to be a reason for this and Gray hasn’t yet managed to sort it out
Dundee United at home on the back of picking up a few points and playing a team we should of beaten a few weeks ago provides Gray with a great opportunity to get a much needed win
If he can’t then questions will rightly be asked if he is the right man to take us forward
We simply can’t afford a second quarter of the season where we only win one league game

[chrisski33]

A positive is our next 3 games are, you'd like to think anyway, games where we can potentially pick up a few points.

Add that to the fact Hearts have Celtic, Ranges and Aberdeen in 3 of the next 4, we could potentially put a bit of daylight between us and them (who are very possibly going to be bottom going into December).

Going by our current run of form i can't see us doing that well either so i think the margin between us and them ain't gonna be as a big as you suggest.

[Cooshed Kid]

It's not fine margins though. It's individual moments that could have been avoided. It's individual moments that make and break games for a team. Luck has nothing to do with it either. We waste too much time in possession, making unnecessary passes back and forth between midfield and defence allowing the opposition more than enough time to get back into their defensive positions, further allowing them to break down any potential attacks. But instead of cutting out the pointless time wasting passes, we commit more players forward instead. The opposition then wins the ball back (because of course they do, all of their defenders and midfielders are in their defensive positions as we've given them all the time they need). They then attack quickly with efficient, effective passing while our players are caught out of position due to pushing further forward. The result is either the complete slicing of our defence, leading to a chance that's almost certain to go in or a late lunge by a player that's caught out of position, leading to a potential second booking or red card.

The issue isn't luck. it's not our fortunes that need to change, its our entire approach to the game. Waiting for an upturn in our fortunes season after season should serve as a hard lesson in futility. We're waiting for something that doesn't work to miraculously work some day, instead of addressing it.

I fully agree. Even in the Championship we generally had a ponderous build-up from the back, Hanlon and Daz tapping the ball to each other. It's been our Achilles' heel too long. I had the impression that Maloney tried to change things up but the drawback (it seemed to me) was that the ball was treated like a hot potato and nobody wanted more than one touch or flick so we kept losing possession, including right in front of our own box. Things had improved by the end of the season and there were shoots of hope but Ron overreacted again.

We need a change of mindset on the pitch but to get that we need a change of mindset in the dugout. I'd love SDG to have an epiphany which results in a better approach but I don't expect it. If he first of all makes us much more difficult to beat I'll happily accept that but only as a necessary accompaniment to being faster into attacking positions.

[Donegal Hibby]

It's not fine margins though. It's individual moments that could have been avoided. It's individual moments that make and break games for a team. Luck has nothing to do with it either. We waste too much time in possession, making unnecessary passes back and forth between midfield and defence allowing the opposition more than enough time to get back into their defensive positions, further allowing them to break down any potential attacks. But instead of cutting out the pointless time wasting passes, we commit more players forward instead. The opposition then wins the ball back (because of course they do, all of their defenders and midfielders are in their defensive positions as we've given them all the time they need). They then attack quickly with efficient, effective passing while our players are caught out of position due to pushing further forward. The result is either the complete slicing of our defence, leading to a chance that's almost certain to go in or a late lunge by a player that's caught out of position, leading to a potential second booking or red card.

The issue isn't luck. it's not our fortunes that need to change, it’s our entire approach to the game. Waiting for an upturn in our fortunes season after season should serve as a hard lesson in futility. We're waiting for something that doesn't work to miraculously work some day, instead of addressing it.


Individual mistakes in games as well as a lack of being clinical have cost us , as to the luck as nothing to do with it I think that luck has apart to play with everything . Take our recent sending offs against Motherwell and Dundee Utd .

I thought both first bookings were soft . Triantis 2nd yellow and especially Newells wasn’t because they were caught out of position either , in Newells case he simply took a bad first touch that he tried to rectify , after a VAR review they stated that Newells 2nd challenge they got it wrong as it should have been a straight red and yet the Corrie Ndaba tackle on Miller was far worse IMO .. bad refereeing that we could say we were unlucky in not getting a decision that would have ultimately changed the game?.

As to wasting to much time in possession I think it was after the 7th game I posted we had more shots on goal than Aberdeen and in our games our possession as been Dundee 50% , Killie 47% , St Johnstone 52% ,Motherwell 57% ,Dundee Utd 54 % , hertz 35% * , Ross County 54% …

I just don’t see us anywhere near possession based and passing it about back and forth at the back as we did under Monty . In fact I think we are more likely to go direct/ long which some folk were giving out about in the hertz game *

[Bushwoof]

There seems to be some sort of received wisdom that we have calamitous defenders that always make mistakes and cost us matches. They were on about it again on Sportscene on Wed. But are we really any worse that other teams? Just from Wed, what about Killie's winner? Woeful defending. And Hearts goal? Defence all over the place. Aberdeen's first? Where was the marking there? And I'm not even going to talk about Motherwell's winner.

The derby equaliser was nothing compared with those goals. As I said in another thread, only the top 5 teams have conceded less than us. We need to stop dishing out the vitriol, especially when it's largely undeserved.

The inability to score, on the other hand, is a major problem.

[Donegal Hibby]

There seems to be some sort of received wisdom that we have calamitous defenders that always make mistakes and cost us matches. They were on about it again on Sportscene on Wed. But are we really any worse that other teams? Just from Wed, what about Killie's winner? Woeful defending. And Hearts goal? Defence all over the place. Aberdeen's first? Where was the marking there? And I'm not even going to talk about Motherwell's winner.

The derby equaliser was nothing compared with those goals. As I said in another thread, only the top 5 teams have conceded less than us. We need to stop dishing out the vitriol, especially when it's largely undeserved.

The inability to score, on the other hand, is a major problem.

I think it’s both in we have switched off at times when defending though games like the hertz and Motherwell ones we should really be putting teams away with the chances we are creating alright

[NC1875]

Individual mistakes in games as well as a lack of being clinical have cost us , as to the luck as nothing to do with it I think that luck has apart to play with everything . Take our recent sending offs against Motherwell and Dundee Utd .

I thought both first bookings were soft . Triantis 2nd yellow and especially Newells wasn’t because they were caught out of position either , in Newells case he simply took a bad first touch that he tried to rectify , after a VAR review they stated that Newells 2nd challenge they got it wrong as it should have been a straight red and yet the Corrie Ndaba tackle on Miller was far worse IMO .. bad refereeing that we could say we were unlucky in not getting a decision that would have ultimately changed the game?.

As to wasting to much time in possession I think it was after the 7th game I posted we had more shots on goal than Aberdeen and in our games our possession as been Dundee 50% , Killie 47% , St Johnstone 52% ,Motherwell 57% ,Dundee Utd 54 % , hertz 35% * , Ross County 54% …

I just don’t see us anywhere near possession based and passing it about back and forth at the back as we did under Monty . In fact I think we are more likely to go direct/ long which some folk were giving out about in the hertz game *

I don’t know if you actually watch any Hibs games ?

We’ve been utter crap. We pass the ball about side to side, back to the defender, to the other centre half then hoof. Hope we win a throw in to then launch it in the box to no one.

Rinse and repeat.

It’s absolute garbage and 10-15 games in I don’t see a game plan.

Your hard luck stories are wearing thin.

We don’t have the 11th worst team in the league. But the manager clearly can’t motivate them, he can’t organise them and he can’t find a formation that works with the squad we’ve got.

What is he actually good at ? Has he improved one single player ? Had one good result ?

Nick Montgomery or Lee Johnson would have us sitting 6-7th imo.

[HFC93]

There seems to be some sort of received wisdom that we have calamitous defenders that always make mistakes and cost us matches. They were on about it again on Sportscene on Wed. But are we really any worse that other teams? Just from Wed, what about Killie's winner? Woeful defending. And Hearts goal? Defence all over the place. Aberdeen's first? Where was the marking there? And I'm not even going to talk about Motherwell's winner.

The derby equaliser was nothing compared with those goals. As I said in another thread, only the top 5 teams have conceded less than us. We need to stop dishing out the vitriol, especially when it's largely undeserved.

The inability to score, on the other hand, is a major problem.

Agreed. We're 6th in the league for goals against and bottom of the league for goals for. However, the narrative seems have been that Bursik and the defence are to blame for our current predicament and not that we aren't scoring enough goals.

[Donegal Hibby]

I don’t know if you actually watch any Hibs games ?

We’ve been utter crap. We pass the ball about side to side, back to the defender, to the other centre half then hoof. Hope we win a throw in to then launch it in the box to no one.

Rinse and repeat.

It’s absolute garbage and 10-15 games in I don’t see a game plan.

Your hard luck stories are wearing thin.

We don’t have the 11th worst team in the league. But the manager clearly can’t motivate them, he can’t organise them and he can’t find a formation that works with the squad we’ve got.

What is he actually good at ? Has he improved one single player ? Had one good result ?

Nick Montgomery or Lee Johnson would have us sitting 6-7th imo.

I watch every hibs game .

The passing from side to side , back to a defender and then hoof is exactly the way I thought hertz played against us in fairness ..

Thought we were good against sevco , put in a good battling performance against Killie and both Dundee Utd and the Motherwell games we were will in them before the sending offs , hertz game we should have won if it hadn’t been for some poor finishing , Ross county game the first half was awful though we were better in the 2nd .. considering there home record and our situation I think it was a decent point.

No hard luck stories just the way I see it though the last time I posted on a game because it wasn’t to your liking you altered what I said ..

As to Gray I don’t know if it’s going to work out or not but I am for giving him more time …

Going by what the players reaction on\ off the field I get the impression they are very much behind him too .

[NC1875]

I watch every hibs game .

The passing from side to side , back to a defender and then hoof is exactly the way I thought hertz played against us in fairness ..

Thought we were good against sevco , put in a good battling performance against Killie and both Dundee Utd and the Motherwell games we were will in them before the sending offs , hertz game we should have won if it hadn’t been for some poor finishing , Ross county game the first half was awful though we were better in the 2nd .. considering there home record and our situation I think it was a decent point.

No hard luck stories just the way I see it though the last time I posted on a game because it wasn’t to your liking you altered what I said ..

As to Gray I don’t know if it’s going to work out or not but I am for giving him more time …

Going by what the players reaction on\ off the field I get the impression they are very much behind him too .

I can’t alter what you’ve posted I’m afraid so I don’t know what you mean by that 🤷🏽*♂️

Do you see a game plan ? A style of play ? Players giving an extra 10% to get out the mess we’re in ?

It’s a genuine question as I just don’t see anything that makes any sense in giving him more time to get us even deeper into trouble.

A semi competent manager has us 6-7th at least at this stage.

I just don’t see any positives. He hasn’t improved anyone. I don’t see these non negotiable that he spoke about. We don’t look organised. His subs are baffling……

[Donegal Hibby]

I can’t alter what you’ve posted I’m afraid so I don’t know what you mean by that 🤷🏽*♂️

Do you see a game plan ? A style of play ? Players giving an extra 10% to get out the mess we’re in ?

It’s a genuine question as I just don’t see anything that makes any sense in giving him more time to get us even deeper into trouble.

A semi competent manager has us 6-7th at least at this stage.

I just don’t see any positives. He hasn’t improved anyone. I don’t see these non negotiable that he spoke about. We don’t look organised. His subs are baffling……

I said that the point at Ross county was a decent result and yet you told another poster I said it was a good result. Surely you know there’s a difference between the words decent and good , no ? .

[Gruff]

I watch every hibs game .

The passing from side to side , back to a defender and then hoof is exactly the way I thought hertz played against us in fairness ..

Thought we were good against sevco , put in a good battling performance against Killie and both Dundee Utd and the Motherwell games we were will in them before the sending offs , hertz game we should have won if it hadn’t been for some poor finishing , Ross county game the first half was awful though we were better in the 2nd .. considering there home record and our situation I think it was a decent point.

No hard luck stories just the way I see it though the last time I posted on a game because it wasn’t to your liking you altered what I said ..

As to Gray I don’t know if it’s going to work out or not but I am for giving him more time …

Going by what the players reaction on\ off the field I get the impression they are very much behind him too .


If Hearts play pass around the back then hooof, thats how they play, it is of little concern to me if Hearts are set up this way, i don't see how thats any correlation to how we play? Its awful to watch i'll give you that, but Hearts are awful to watch in general.
However Gray week in week out tells us that the team trained well, looking sharp in training etc etc and then we get a bland insipid display of nothing.
There seems to be no direction other than pass it around the back, slow the game down, hooof it long and see if we can scramble a hopeful shot, maybe even on target.
Mid week we were bottom of the league and going by what Gray alluded to, i thought we would maybe see the team come out and put pressure on, Gray surely knew that Ross County would make it difficult for us to break them down....however what we got was far from that. If thats Gray getting the team fired up, then heaven help us.

And its not just on one game, we've been rank for an age, we lack any pace moving into space or just the ball in general, very little in creativity, there is just no visible signs of any improvement that would push us up the table, we are very much a bottom 6 side


Grays use of subs is bizarre and sometimes his reading of the game is strange and his changes are making it worse for us.
I do feel for him as hes now in a rock and a hard place, he knows his job is very much on the line just now, he wouldn't be human if it wasn't in the back of his mind, so his current thinking is very cautious and this is evident throughout the whole game.

I totally respect your views on to keep backing him, you did the same with Monty right up until it was clear to all that it was a failure, saying that he should be given time, and i am as tired as you are of the constant churn, however if, and its an if at the moment, it doesn't improve over the next few games then his position must be called into question.
We can't afford to hope that Hearts, St Johnstone, Ross County will be worse than us, we should be better than this

[Donegal Hibby]

If Hearts play pass around the back then hooof, thats how they play, it is of little concern to me if Hearts are set up this way, i don't see how thats any correlation to how we play? Its awful to watch i'll give you that, but Hearts are awful to watch in general.
However Gray week in week out tells us that the team trained well, looking sharp in training etc etc and then we get a bland insipid display of nothing.
There seems to be no direction other than pass it around the back, slow the game down, hooof it long and see if we can scramble a hopeful shot, maybe even on target.
Mid week we were bottom of the league and going by what Gray alluded to, i thought we would maybe see the team come out and put pressure on, Gray surely knew that Ross County would make it difficult for us to break them down....however what we got was far from that. If thats Gray getting the team fired up, then heaven help us.

And its not just on one game, we've been rank for an age, we lack any pace moving into space or just the ball in general, very little in creativity, there is just no visible signs of any improvement that would push us up the table, we are very much a bottom 6 side


Grays use of subs is bizarre and sometimes his reading of the game is strange and his changes are making it worse for us.
I do feel for him as hes now in a rock and a hard place, he knows his job is very much on the line just now, he wouldn't be human if it wasn't in the back of his mind, so his current thinking is very cautious and this is evident throughout the whole game.

I totally respect your views on to keep backing him, you did the same with Monty right up until it was clear to all that it was a failure, saying that he should be given time, and i am as tired as you are of the constant churn, however if, and its an if at the moment, it doesn't improve over the next few games then his position must be called into question.
We can't afford to hope that Hearts, St Johnstone, Ross County will be worse than us, we should be better than this

Yeah I agree I couldn’t care less how hertz play either though I did think for the large bulk of the game the way we played worked , we allowed them possession , closed down most options they had which resulted in them not really hurting us , we had more shots and better chances. A lapse in concentration / mistake cost us as well as a lack of being clinical….

I think some of the performances haven’t been totally bad like away to sevco and Killie though like in the Killie game losing a late penalty from a mistake from a experienced player , players getting sent off , missed penalties have cost us a fair few points in games I just don’t think we have been overrun / dominated in , I’m just not sure i can blame the manager for poor decisions players have taken in these games tbh …

Ross County game the first half was awful . I did think we picked up in the 2nd half though there was a lack of chances created alright… looking at the other teams shots compared to our 12 /2 in that game Dundee Utd had the same , Dundee who lost there had 8/3 , Killie who lost there had 9/2 and Aberdeen who won had 9/3 …

I might be wrong though going by that it looks like they are a team that generally doesn’t gift that many goal scoring opportunities to rival teams there …. One thing I noticed is they had more shots against most of these teams than they did us..

I honestly don’t know how it’s going to go for Gray , massive game this Sunday which a win could see us go up to eighth possibly though a defeat will surely see the **** hit the fan on here again.

If he goes I don’t know where we go as it’s not long ago names where getting mentioned for the job like Murray and the Airdrie manager .. now with things going badly the style of football is being called into question though if he goes there will be folk clamouring for McInnes too …

I would imagine we have also started identifying players Gray wants for January which if he goes will also be up in the air …

There will come a point if results don’t change there will have to be a change though I don’t think we are at that point yet …

I think you have a different opinion than me so thanks for being civil which I haven’t always encountered recently on here .. fair dues to you pal for that :aok:

[greenlex]

I am of the opinion that the squad is adequate enough to be doing much much better. We are light up top and lack that maestro in midfield somewhat but there is no doubt we should be doing much better. Still short of proper leaders on the park too. The biggest problem ,again in my opinion, is the coaching and management of the squad. We were desperate for a been there done that coach before we appointed SDG and we didn’t. Someone as a player you would, for want of a better phrase, run through brick walls for. Until this is addressed we will struggle on a game by game basis. Minimum requirement is effort and passion. I’m seeing neither. That should be driven from the top.