Possession-based football

[Saint Hibee]

A very interesting piece on the pros and cons of possession-based football, something increasingly visible at Hibs and elsewhere in Scottish football. Having been born and raised a Southampton fan, it does make slightly painful reading (and watching) but I'd be interested to hear if people think this could be successful at Hibs given the calibre of players at our disposal?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/oct/14/is-it-naive-for-a-promoted-side-to-play-possession-football-in-the-premier-league

[gbhibby]

Possession based football is fine if it produces end results. Some games are a difficult watch when there are less than a handful of shots on target in a whole match
Some players are scared to make a risky pass when a player is running into a great open position. Sometimes taking a risk provides a positive reward.

[Jones28]

I might be over-simplifying this but all that really shows is that without Elite top level players this style of football is not working, no?

[Pretty Boy]

I might be over-simplifying this but all that really shows is that without Elite top level players this style of football is not working, no?

I always find it a bit bizarre when people are surprised by that (I'm not implying you are btw).

It's just common sense that a system that cost hundreds of millions of pounds to implement correctly at Manchester City and cost a billion pound to be a total flop at Manchester United isn't going to be easily transferable to the bargain basement.

I'm all for encouraging players to be brave in possession but playing tiki taka in your own box is going to cost more goals than it creates in the Scottish Premiership.

[matty_f]

I always find it a bit bizarre when people are surprised by that (I'm not implying you are btw).

It's just common sense that a system that cost hundreds of millions of pounds to implement correctly at Manchester City and cost a billion pound to be a total flop at Manchester United isn't going to be easily transferable to the bargain basement.

I'm all for encouraging players to be brave in possession but playing tiki taka in your own box is going to cost more goals than it creates in the Scottish Premiership.
I think also unless you have really top level coaches coaching it, with players talented enough to understand the system instinctively, then it’s a very hard watch indeed.
We saw very fleeting glimpses of it working under Monty last season, Tavares goal at Dundee stands out, and there were enough passages of play to enable Raimundo to put a highlights reel on LinkedIn of us passing it out from the back successfully into an attacking move, but those five minutes or so in his highlight reel captured just about every time it worked.
5 minutes of football in a season is a woeful return.
When you put together a lowlight reel of the goals we conceded playing like that, or the times we passed about for ages and lost the ball or it went back to the goalie to shell out for a throw in, you would really question the sanity of anyone persisting with a style that was ineffective, boring, and at times comically bad.

[wookie70]

I might be over-simplifying this but all that really shows is that without Elite top level players this style of football is not working, no?

It was why I was so against Maloney being manager. He was so clear about the way he wanted to play and it obviously had no chance of success.

I was speaking to a journalist at the last Hibs press conference and he was doing his B licence coaching course. He mentioned the amount of tactical training involved and I argued that if everyone gets taught the same tactics and then implements them we effectively get a boring stalemate with the most money winning. It is a UEFA course so perhaps that is the rational. I'm more in the "If you don't shoot you don't score camp" and it makes no sense to me when I see players in great positions to shoot and cross who don't take that opportunity.

[Broken Gnome]

I think also unless you have really top level coaches coaching it, with players talented enough to understand the system instinctively, then it’s a very hard watch indeed.
We saw very fleeting glimpses of it working under Monty last season, Tavares goal at Dundee stands out, and there were enough passages of play to enable Raimundo to put a highlights reel on LinkedIn of us passing it out from the back successfully into an attacking move, but those five minutes or so in his highlight reel captured just about every time it worked.
5 minutes of football in a season is a woeful return.
When you put together a lowlight reel of the goals we conceded playing like that, or the times we passed about for ages and lost the ball or it went back to the goalie to shell out for a throw in, you would really question the sanity of anyone persisting with a style that was ineffective, boring, and at times comically bad.

Agreed.

Pig sick of seeing a style of play that is essentially committing to sideways passing until you find that one 'break in the press' or whatever it is these days. That can take what seems like minutes to do, and frequently you give up whatever gain you made and have to start all over again.

Used to be a really engaging exciting sport - still can be of course - but the coaching manual emphasis on everything being so methodical is a huge turn off. Over the course of 90 minutes the enjoyable moments don't outweigh the medium of stalemate.

[Jones28]

I always find it a bit bizarre when people are surprised by that (I'm not implying you are btw).

It's just common sense that a system that cost hundreds of millions of pounds to implement correctly at Manchester City and cost a billion pound to be a total flop at Manchester United isn't going to be easily transferable to the bargain basement.

I'm all for encouraging players to be brave in possession but playing tiki taka in your own box is going to cost more goals than it creates in the Scottish Premiership.

I was expecting something groundbreaking from the article, but no it just told me everything I already know.

[heretoday]

Route One is the only way.

[gbhibby]

Route One is the only way.

Route one sometimes gets the ball to the same position as 60 passes. Game has got too bogged down in statistics
Successful completed passes, Possession for one team etc.
How many tines do you see someone take on a full back and make a cross on the run. Game should be a mix of all skills.

[MWHIBBIES]

Route one sometimes gets the ball to the same position as 60 passes. Game has got too bogged down in statistics
Successful completed passes, Possession for one team etc.
How many tines do you see someone take on a full back and make a cross on the run. Game should be a mix of all skills.

It's about consistently and reliably getting to that position and stopping the opposition doing so. And it quite clearly does work at the top level.

I see wingers take on fullbacks dozens of times every week. Saka and Martinelli at Arsenal do it all the time and get crosses in. It's a bit of a myth that this doesn't happen now. It's a huge part of good sides offence.

[Brightside]

I always find it a bit bizarre when people are surprised by that (I'm not implying you are btw).

It's just common sense that a system that cost hundreds of millions of pounds to implement correctly at Manchester City and cost a billion pound to be a total flop at Manchester United isn't going to be easily transferable to the bargain basement.

I'm all for encouraging players to be brave in possession but playing tiki taka in your own box is going to cost more goals than it creates in the Scottish Premiership.

You just have to be better than the opposition of working it in tight spaces. If 7 year olds can do it, I see no reason why that cannot be continued through the age groups. I agree if the players arent capable of simple passing under pressure then its best to just do what the rest do. Percentage football.

[superfurryhibby]

Interesting that Arteta isn't doing the short by-kick at Arsenal?

[Brightside]

It was why I was so against Maloney being manager. He was so clear about the way he wanted to play and it obviously had no chance of success.

I was speaking to a journalist at the last Hibs press conference and he was doing his B licence coaching course. He mentioned the amount of tactical training involved and I argued that if everyone gets taught the same tactics and then implements them we effectively get a boring stalemate with the most money winning. It is a UEFA course so perhaps that is the rational. I'm more in the "If you don't shoot you don't score camp" and it makes no sense to me when I see players in great positions to shoot and cross who don't take that opportunity.

Coaches dont get taught the same tactics tho. You discuss almost all known formations and tactics (including long ball styles). There isn't a book that says "this is how you have to coach teams", just loads of different ingredients. IF you have the players - keeping the ball makes it much easier to win games.

[bingo70]

You just have to be better than the opposition of working it in tight spaces. If 7 year olds can do it, I see no reason why that cannot be continued through the age groups. I agree if the players arent capable of simple passing under pressure then its best to just do what the rest do. Percentage football.

7 year olds aren’t playing against teams who are trained to beat the press.

I think the key is to get the balance right.

Possession based football some times, more direct at other times.

Any team doing solely one or the other will probably fail, unless you’ve got the best players in the world doing it.

[Brightside]

7 year olds aren’t playing against teams who are trained to beat the press.

I think the key is to get the balance right.

Possession based football some times, more direct at other times.

Any team doing solely one or the other will probably fail, unless you’ve got the best players in the world doing it.

They are. :agree:

But I agree on the rest of your point. It's about reacting to situations and not playing in an easy to control manner. You've got to confuse the opponent. For me thats where we are struggling at the moment. Most teams know that as long as they defend as a unit and get back into the final 3rd quickly they will overload our team and find it easy to defence against us. It's too slow and passive and we dont get enough in the final 3rd from our midfield.

[matty_f]

7 year olds aren’t playing against teams who are trained to beat the press.

I think the key is to get the balance right.

Possession based football some times, more direct at other times.

Any team doing solely one or the other will probably fail, unless you’ve got the best players in the world doing it.
Agreed. Balance is key, it’s not about being either possession based or long ball with no in between, there are times to keep the ball and times to be more direct - and direct doesn’t have to be a lump up the park to a big striker , it can be the Paul Hanlon diagonal out to Martin Boyle etc as well.


What we’ve seen under Maloney and then Monty is a team trying to play possession football that simply lets the opposition get back into a shape to stop us playing through them, and then it’s a stalemate until they inevitably take the ball off us and score.

When it works and a team can pass the ball nicely and carve out chances, it can be great to watch, but there are loads of ways to skin a cat, as the saying goes, and the alternative to tika taka doesn’t have to be hoofball.

[blackpoolhibs]

I just laugh at Hibs attempts to play this way most of the time, it's quite easy what we do when we have the ball, we pass it around each other until we have a bit of space normally around 30-40 yards from our own goal.

The opposition have hardly broke sweat trying to press us or get the ball back, they have just sauntered back into shape, knowing full well we will give the ball back to them when we try and go forward.

Boring as hell, and yet some folk were bored winning, what are they like watching this pish?

[gbhibby]

It's about consistently and reliably getting to that position and stopping the opposition doing so. And it quite clearly does work at the top level.

I see wingers take on fullbacks dozens of times every week. Saka and Martinelli at Arsenal do it all the time and get crosses in. It's a bit of a myth that this doesn't happen now. It's a huge part of good sides offence.
I see wingers who have space to hit the byline by taking on defenders passing the ball back into midfield a lot more than going to try to beat a man,so will have to agree to disagree on that. You see players Phil Foden try to break the lines and moving into wide open positions but the ball is passed sideways or backwards.

[wookie70]

Coaches dont get taught the same tactics tho. You discuss almost all known formations and tactics (including long ball styles). There isn't a book that says "this is how you have to coach teams", just loads of different ingredients. IF you have the players - keeping the ball makes it much easier to win games. Only if your players are better than the opponents. It is futile for the vast majority of teams who will essentially get out passed by more expensive players.

[J-C]

Problem we have is people playing games like FM and expecting a real Hibs team to play that way, we need players comfortable playing with the ball at their feet and we've not had that since we won the cup in 2016. Possession based football can sometimes struggle against well organised defensive teams, we seen that recently when Arsenal played Man City but you also need to have pace and clever players to break down these defences, see our cup defeats against St Johnstone when Ross was in charge. I think the case is we need a mixture of possession and counter attack but our main problem at Hibs has been our defence and letting in goals, if we can't fix that then no amount of possession will get us winning games.

[Nutmegged]

I always find it a bit bizarre when people are surprised by that (I'm not implying you are btw).

It's just common sense that a system that cost hundreds of millions of pounds to implement correctly at Manchester City and cost a billion pound to be a total flop at Manchester United isn't going to be easily transferable to the bargain basement.

I'm all for encouraging players to be brave in possession but playing tiki taka in your own box is going to cost more goals than it creates in the Scottish Premiership.

I think most managers know this, but I also think they want to show potential suitors that they play this style in the hope of getting a job at a bigger club, in a better league for far more money.

If a manager comes here and plays to his teams strengths and it turns out to be more direct and less passing, it might suit us and it might get us success, but better sides will probably never look twice at that manager due to his style of play, where as if they fail trying to play the perceived "right way", other clubs might look at him and think well he's got the right ideas, he's just never had the tools, so they'd be more likely to give him a gig.

I hate modern football, every club tries to play the same way, there's no real variety in styles, and defending on a whole is a thing of the past.

[JimBHibees]

Route One is the only way.

:greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Would far rather watch teams who try and pass the ball rather than launching it to a big striker.

[Donegal Hibby]

Would far rather watch teams who try and pass the ball rather than launching it to a big striker.

So would I and I think the majority of fans do too .

[Bishop Hibee]

David Moyes has been working as a Technical Observer for UEFA. He said post Euros that the only real tactical innovation as such was teams playing longer passes over the press rather than passing through it. If you have pace up front or an effective target man it’s a great option playing superior opponents.

[matty_f]

Would far rather watch teams who try and pass the ball rather than launching it to a big striker.

There’s a point between those two styles though, isn’t there?

[Paul1642]

A Benji / Zemmama highlights real came up on my X feed a few months ago and it was obviously a beautiful watch. Unfortunately I can’t find it again.

It was also hugely noticeable how much the game has changed in less than 20 years. It was almost like watching a different sport to a small degree.

There’s probably a bit of rosey retrospect going on, not to mention that a highlights real naturally shows you the good bits and not the crap, but I honesty think the game as a whole, not just Hibs, was much more enjoyable to watch back then. Possession football can be a real bore fest at times. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the most enjoyable games do the euros involved some of the ‘smaller’ counties going all out against each other whilst the teams full of Premiership stars were dead slow.

[Smartie]

Route One is the only way.

Loads of formations and styles of play have come and gone as each one gets worked out as having a particular weakness and then exploited.

It wouldn’t surprise me if some sort of Wimbledon style of football ended up being the Kryptonite for this, executed in certain way with a certain balance of type of player.

[Alfred E Newman]

Get the ba up the bloody park!

[Paul1642]

Loads of formations and styles of play have come and gone as each one gets worked out as having a particular weakness and then exploited.

It wouldn’t surprise me if some sort of Wimbledon style of football ended up being the Kryptonite for this, executed in certain way with a certain balance of type of player.

I would love to see this. I’m not sure modern Referees would feel the same way.

[Forza Fred]

Coaches dont get taught the same tactics tho. You discuss almost all known formations and tactics (including long ball styles). There isn't a book that says "this is how you have to coach teams", just loads of different ingredients. IF you have the players - keeping the ball makes it much easier to win games.

I think it makes it easier to avoid. losing games, rather than winning them.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I always find it a bit bizarre when people are surprised by that (I'm not implying you are btw).

It's just common sense that a system that cost hundreds of millions of pounds to implement correctly at Manchester City and cost a billion pound to be a total flop at Manchester United isn't going to be easily transferable to the bargain basement.

I'm all for encouraging players to be brave in possession but playing tiki taka in your own box is going to cost more goals than it creates in the Scottish Premiership.

Hard to argue with any of that.

[Donegal Hibby]

A very interesting piece on the pros and cons of possession-based football, something increasingly visible at Hibs and elsewhere in Scottish football. Having been born and raised a Southampton fan, it does make slightly painful reading (and watching) but I'd be interested to hear if people think this could be successful at Hibs given the calibre of players at our disposal?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/oct/14/is-it-naive-for-a-promoted-side-to-play-possession-football-in-the-premier-league

In the Championship when Southampton got promoted via the play-offs they lost I think 63 goals which was a lot and now in the Premier League they lost I think the 2nd most amount of goals while struggling to score many..

Do you think Russel Martin should change things or persevere with his principles on how Southampton should play in the hope it comes good ? .

[Bobby's Cinema]

Agreed.

Pig sick of seeing a style of play that is essentially committing to sideways passing until you find that one 'break in the press' or whatever it is these days. That can take what seems like minutes to do, and frequently you give up whatever gain you made and have to start all over again.

Used to be a really engaging exciting sport - still can be of course - but the coaching manual emphasis on everything being so methodical is a huge turn off. Over the course of 90 minutes the enjoyable moments don't outweigh the medium of stalemate.
Absolutely. I feel like more and more games I may as well have turned up after an hour when things start to open up a bit as I'd have missed nothing.

And from a Hibs perspective I can't remember the last time we really came out in a first half with urgency pressing all over the park and attacking with pace to get a game won before half time. Just doesn't happen.

[wookie70]

Absolutely. I feel like more and more games I may as well have turned up after an hour when things start to open up a bit as I'd have missed nothing.

And from a Hibs perspective I can't remember the last time we really came out in a first half with urgency pressing all over the park and attacking with pace to get a game won before half time. Just doesn't happen.

I wonder how much of that has to do with large squads, good wages and conditions and comfortable training environments etc. Back in the day teh squads were smaller and starting, winning and scoring would be quite a chunk of player's pay packets. It is such a different game now and much of it isn't for the better

[truehibernian]

Watched Scotland U16’s at the weekend, some awful playing out from the back, many times players caught in possession in their own box under no pressure, the keeper trying to pass on the floor but couldn’t, and all the attacking success came from long switches out wide and playing over the midfield, despite the coaches ranting at the touch line to play through the lines. The players on show couldn’t, hence the successes came from diagonals or balls up the line.

Rather than play to the strengths the coaches were intent on playing on weaknesses- so in short, coaching even at that level is narcissistic rather than realistic.

The young Hibs full back was excellent as was the young Rangers winger - they played direct and simple. The central defenders were absolutely awful, clearly encouraged to play over elaborate passing across the back, which led to huge problems.

Wales on the other hand were strong, simple passing, and didn’t over elaborate play.

[Saint Hibee]

In the Championship when Southampton got promoted via the play-offs they lost I think 63 goals which was a lot and now in the Premier League they lost I think the 2nd most amount of goals while struggling to score many..

Do you think Russel Martin should change things or persevere with his principles on how Southampton should play in the hope it comes good ? .
One point from seven games suggests he needs to change things!

[J-C]

One point from seven games suggests he needs to change things!

It's like Celtic losing 7-1 and thinking they can play the same way they do against St Johnstone against the top teams in Europe.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Possession percentages are misleading. Would be interesting to see stats that remove backwards passing and sideways passing and see how many times the ball actually moves forwards when your team has it.

[Brightside]

Possession percentages are misleading. Would be interesting to see stats that remove backwards passing and sideways passing and see how many times the ball actually moves forwards when your team has it.

Sideways and Backwards passing is a fundamental in eventually getting into scoring positions. I see games every week at youth level and up where the ball is given away so often as they try to go forward when there is nothing on. It's just about doing the right thing and the right time. There is NO coaching manual out there that is telling teams to play possession football, and despite what many seem to think it really isn't the most common tactic used in football today.

[Donegal Hibby]

One point from seven games suggests he needs to change things!

A lot of these managers for some reason won’t change it when things aren’t going well . Vincent Kompany’s Burnley were a joy to watch in the Championship yet he stuck to basically the same principles even though they didn’t work in the Premier League …

All very well when things are going good though when they stop and start to go badly it’s good to have a plan B .

I say this as someone that generally likes to watch teams play good football though see the logic to go more direct at times when needed ….

I suppose for certain clubs like Hibs and Southampton it’s about trying to find the right balance between both rather than having one particular way which I think we were under Monty and Southampton are under Russell .

[wookie70]

What always amazes me is that we will play all sorts of risky passes to keep possession near our own goal but when presented with possession on the centre spot with no opposition player within 10 metres we play a short pass and then hoof it out of play immediately giving possession up. If players are still backing first throw in then I understand but I presume some football statistic says it makes sense. Alex Miller did it for over a decade with no positive results and we have went back to that and 11 men back for set pieces.

[beensaidbefore]

Would far rather watch teams who try and pass the ball rather than launching it to a big striker.

This was one of the first things I noticed about Maloneys style of play. He had Rocky passing it side to side for what seemed half the game. It's boring as **** to watch and didn't produce the goods. Brighton the same last season. It's fine watching Villa and Spurs playing like that, but even they have been figured out this season.

[Paulie Walnuts]

This was one of the first things I noticed about Maloneys style of play. He had Rocky passing it side to side for what seemed half the game. It's boring as **** to watch and didn't produce the goods. Brighton the same last season. It's fine watching Villa and Spurs playing like that, but even they have been figured out this season.

Maloneys first two games were really enjoyable I thought. Then it all just seemed to get extremely boring and defensive.

[Bobby's Cinema]

This was one of the first things I noticed about Maloneys style of play. He had Rocky passing it side to side for what seemed half the game. It's boring as **** to watch and didn't produce the goods. Brighton the same last season. It's fine watching Villa and Spurs playing like that, but even they have been figured out this season.
I'm fairly certain under him we had three 0-0's in a week. I'm sure it was Celtic Dundee and one other.

I just checked and there have been 14 goals (including both for & against) in 10 league games this season involving Wigan - the lowest of any club in the division. There have been worse performing Hibs sides than that one, but that will go down as one of my least favorite periods watching us.

[Smartie]

Maloneys first two games were really enjoyable I thought. Then it all just seemed to get extremely boring and defensive.

It felt like Christmas came at a bad time for him. The 2 games pre-Christmas were a drastic improvement on what had gone before, we had every reason to believe we were going to get back on track. Then Christmas happened and almost immediately we were very poor again, with arrivals like Chris Mueller flopping badly, a couple of very ropey performances happening early on and the old nerves reappeared.

I hated the football under Maloney. It was weird, the decision making of the players was weird, I just hated it.

[Since90+2]

You can have the best tacticians and coaches in the world but ultimately it comes down to players. Players all have ceilings and no matter how well they're coached they ain't going to from an average Scottish premier league player to an above average English premier league players as an example, no matter how well they're coached.

Give Pep the Southampton job and Russell Martin the City job and City are still going to finish miles above Southampton.

[Paulie Walnuts]

It felt like Christmas came at a bad time for him. The 2 games pre-Christmas were a drastic improvement on what had gone before, we had every reason to believe we were going to get back on track. Then Christmas happened and almost immediately we were very poor again, with arrivals like Chris Mueller flopping badly, a couple of very ropey performances happening early on and the old nerves reappeared.

I hated the football under Maloney. It was weird, the decision making of the players was weird, I just hated it.

Losing Boyle killed him imo.

Boyle was a one man team that season. 19 G/A in 24 games. He had him for 3 games, won 2 of them and lost at Parkhead in the other, then he was given guys like Jasper, Melkersen who at the time hadn’t even played on grass, Mueller and Henderson. At least 3 of them we know were nothing to do with him in terms of signing.

I don’t think our current squad is that bad and I don’t think it has been since LJ came in, I think we’ve had managers who have had them underperforming. That Maloney squad though was dreadful and to an extent, I’m surprised he got so close to getting us top 6, it was by a mile the worst collection of individuals I’ve seen at Hibs since we went down.

Always said his time at Hibs tells us nothing about his ability as a manager and he’s showing that at Wigan.

[blackpoolhibs]

Losing Boyle killed him imo.

Boyle was a one man team that season. 19 G/A in 24 games. He had him for 3 games, won 2 of them and lost at Parkhead in the other, then he was given guys like Jasper, Melkersen who at the time hadn’t even played on grass, Mueller and Henderson. At least 3 of them we know were nothing to do with him in terms of signing.

I don’t think our current squad is that bad and I don’t think it has been since LJ came in, I think we’ve had managers who have had them underperforming. That Maloney squad though was dreadful and to an extent, I’m surprised he got so close to getting us top 6, it was by a mile the worst collection of individuals I’ve seen at Hibs since we went down.

Always said his time at Hibs tells us nothing about his ability as a manager and he’s showing that at Wigan.

The start of the Gordons interference, well if you dont count sacking Ross?

[worcesterhibby]

I don’t even like modern football when Man City play it. Yawn.

[DJ HIBBY]

Portugal classic example of possession football tonight, no cutting edge or plan b for mixing it up.

[superfurryhibby]

Losing Boyle killed him imo.

Boyle was a one man team that season. 19 G/A in 24 games. He had him for 3 games, won 2 of them and lost at Parkhead in the other, then he was given guys like Jasper, Melkersen who at the time hadn’t even played on grass, Mueller and Henderson. At least 3 of them we know were nothing to do with him in terms of signing.

I don’t think our current squad is that bad and I don’t think it has been since LJ came in, I think we’ve had managers who have had them underperforming. That Maloney squad though was dreadful and to an extent, I’m surprised he got so close to getting us top 6, it was by a mile the worst collection of individuals I’ve seen at Hibs since we went down.

Always said his time at Hibs tells us nothing about his ability as a manager and he’s showing that at Wigan.

He's hardly set the heather on fire at Wigan, who are a mid to bottom end side in league 1. His side have scored 9 goals this season (only conceding 5) and sit in 16th place. 12th last season.

His football at Hibs was dire overall and the team set up was a joke, whether the players were poor or otherwise.

[Paulie Walnuts]

He's hardly set the heather on fire at Wigan, who are a mid to bottom end side in league 1. His side have scored 9 goals this season (only conceding 5) and sit in 16th place. 12th last season.

His football at Hibs was dire overall and the team set up was a joke, whether the players were poor or otherwise.

He’s doing a decent job at Wigan. They were a shambles when he took them over and he’s steadied the ship.

Not setting the heather on fire, I agree, but he’s not failing like he did here.

[CapitalGreen]

He’s doing a decent job at Wigan. They were a shambles when he took them over and he’s steadied the ship.

Not setting the heather on fire, I agree, but he’s not failing like he did here.

Four 0-0 draws in their previous 5 league games, seems like his “style” is working just as well as it did up here.

[CapitalGreen]

Maloneys first two games were really enjoyable I thought. Then it all just seemed to get extremely boring and defensive.

Joe Newell missed those 2 games 🤔

[Paulie Walnuts]

Four 0-0 draws in their previous 5 league games, seems like his “style” is working just as well as it did up here.

They were the 10th highest scorers in the league last season and only had 4 0-0 draws in all competitions. Not claiming that’s anything to shout about, but whilst they may well be on a wee run of them just now but it’s hardly an accurate snapshot of his overall time there.

[Donegal Hibby]

Four 0-0 draws in their previous 5 league games, seems like his “style” is working just as well as it did up here.

Stockport , Lincoln , Stevenage and Exeter City .. all teams a club like Wigan should be beating . Think they are the fourth lowest for goals scored in league 1 too . Still think he will eventually get the run there if he fails to get promoted which is highly likely.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Stockport , Lincoln , Stevenage and Exeter City .. all teams a club like Wigan should be beating . Think they are the fourth lowest for goals scored in league 1 too . Still think he will eventually get the run there if he fails to get promoted which is highly likely.

Stockport and Lincoln are both in playoff spots and Exeter are 1 spot below the playoff.

I’m not quite sure why Wigan should be beating them?

He likely will get sacked eventually. Most managers do. He’s already lasted longer than the average managerial tenure though.

[Donegal Hibby]

Stockport and Lincoln are both in playoff spots and Exeter are 1 spot below the playoff.

I’m not quite sure why Wigan should be beating them?

He likely will get sacked eventually. Most managers do. He’s already lasted longer than the average managerial tenure though.

Stockport and Mansfield were promoted from a league below that last season and are above them now , Lincoln and Exeter are much smaller clubs than Wigan …

Early days I know but for what should be a big Fish in that pond in challenging at the top end some of their results and their current league positions is poor and I’d have little or no faith in him improving it other than mid table finish which I think would be pretty mediocre for a club like that in league 1.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Stockport and Mansfield were promoted from a league below that last season and are above them now , Lincoln and Exeter are much smaller clubs than Wigan …

Early days I know but for what should be a big Fish in that pond in challenging at the top end some of their results and their current league positions is poor and I’d have little or no faith in him improving it other than mid table finish which I think would be pretty mediocre for a club like that in league 1.

They’re not really a big fish in a small pond. They’re playing in the league they’ve spent the majority of the last decade and the vast majority of their history. They’re recovering from almost going out of business with a squad that contains 3 strikers, all of which are 20 or younger.

They were joint 9th favourite at a fairly massive 20/1 along with another 5 sides to win the league at the start of the season, so based on that, anywhere between 9th and 14th is probably where you’d expect them to be. They’re 16th, 2 points off 9th. Their league position is about where you’d expect them to be, nobody was expecting them to challenge for the league.

[Donegal Hibby]

They’re not really a big fish in a small pond. They’re playing in the league they’ve spent the majority of the last decade and the vast majority of their history. They’re recovering from almost going out of business with a squad that contains 3 strikers, all of which are 20 or younger.

They were joint 9th favourite at a fairly massive 20/1 along with another 5 sides to win the league at the start of the season, so based on that, anywhere between 9th and 14th is probably where you’d expect them to be. They’re 16th, 2 points off 9th. Their league position is about where you’d expect them to be, nobody was expecting them to challenge for the league.

There a club that also have been in the premier and Championship… if they were 20/1 , I wonder what the likes of newly promoted Mansfield and Stockport were ? Let’s not kind ourselves as we know how hard it is for newly promoted clubs to survive in a new league and yet they are doing better at this moment in time than Wigan are ….

Ten games they have played in the league so far and out of them ten they have failed to score in six would suggest there’s a problem in scoring goals , going by what we witnessed in the way he had us playing and looking at their forum were they have a thread about firing blanks …

And remarks about ‘ he won’t take any risks and the passing it from side to side that’s so predictable and easy to play against.. I genuinely think they should be doing better .

This weekend they are playing bottom of the table Cambridge United which is a game they should win if they are to achieve their objectives of getting out of league 1 .

I know they have had their problems though he’s taken in quite a lot of players this summer.

[Paulie Walnuts]

There a club that also have been in the premier and Championship… if they were 20/1 , I wonder what the likes of newly promoted Mansfield and Stockport were ? Let’s not kind ourselves as we know how hard it is for newly promoted clubs to survive in a new league and yet they are doing better at this moment in time than Wigan are ….

Ten games they have played in the league so far and out of them ten they have failed to score in six would suggest there’s a problem in scoring goals , going by what we witnessed in the way he had us playing and looking at their forum were they have a thread about firing blanks …

And remarks about ‘ he won’t take any risks and the passing it from side to side that’s so predictable and easy to play against.. I genuinely think they should be doing better .

This weekend they are playing bottom of the table Cambridge United which is a game they should win if they are to achieve their objectives of getting out of league 1 .

I know they have had their problems though he’s taken in quite a lot of players this summer.

Yes, 10 years ago. They’re a club that have been in League One more often than not since then. What league they were in when they had a whole different squad of players, managers, structure etc is an irrelevance. What league they’ve been in in recent times is much more relevant.

It also doesn’t really matter what odds Mansfield and Stockport were. They can be punching above their weight whilst Wigan are still punching theirs.

It’s not a surprise they have problems scoring goals when their only strikers are 3 20 year old laddies. And whilst you’re using their current run as evidence, you’re ignoring the fact they were in the top half of scorers in the league over the whole of last season.

Anyway, I’m not suggesting he’s some sort of great manager. He’s proven himself to be semi decent though since leaving Hibs. Im not convinced anyone was coming in to that Hibs squad that he had and doing any better.

[Donegal Hibby]

Yes, 10 years ago. They’re a club that have been in League One more often than not since then. What league they were in when they had a whole different squad of players, managers, structure etc is an irrelevance. What league they’ve been in in recent times is much more relevant.

It also doesn’t really matter what odds Mansfield and Stockport were. They can be punching above their weight whilst Wigan are still punching theirs.

It’s not a surprise they have problems scoring goals when their only strikers are 3 20 year old laddies. And whilst you’re using their current run as evidence, you’re ignoring the fact they were in the top half of scorers in the league over the whole of last season.

Anyway, I’m not suggesting he’s some sort of great manager. He’s proven himself to be semi decent though since leaving Hibs. Im not convinced anyone was coming in to that Hibs squad that he had and doing any better.

Not really bothered about the odds either though the point I was making after you brought up that Wigan were 20/1 to win the league is I suspect that Stockport and Mansfield were better odds yet they are currently doing better…

As to Mansfield they weren’t the best team in league 2 but were promoted via the playoffs and have done remarkably well so far , they have more goals , shots / on target than Wigan and probably a lot smaller club …

As to Wigan having only 3 20 year old strikers that is the route Maloney went down in signing young players from Everton , Liverpool, Chelsea , Man U as well as buying one from their league rivals…

I don’t think the young strikers are the main problem in what I’ve read on their forum with the football being described as dull , boring and predictable , seems to be a fair few discontented Wigan fans about the style of football….

He’s seven points of automatic promotion and six of relegation with a game he should win this weekend. I still think Wigans objective is to get promoted be that through the playoffs and at the minute their record of being unable to score in six of their first ten games won’t achieve that …

Maybe he will turn it around though personally I wouldn’t bet on it .

[Paulie Walnuts]

Not really bothered about the odds either though the point I was making after you brought up that Wigan were 20/1 to win the league is I suspect that Stockport and Mansfield were better odds yet they are currently doing better…

As to Mansfield they weren’t the best team in league 2 but were promoted via the playoffs and have done remarkably well so far , they have more goals , shots / on target than Wigan and probably a lot smaller club …

As to Wigan having only 3 20 year old strikers that is the route Maloney went down in signing young players from Everton , Liverpool, Chelsea , Man U as well as buying one from their league rivals…

I don’t think the young strikers are the main problem in what I’ve read on their forum with the football being described as dull , boring and predictable , seems to be a fair few discontented Wigan fans about the style of football….

He’s seven points of automatic promotion and six of relegation with a game he should win this weekend. I still think Wigans objective is to get promoted be that through the playoffs and at the minute their record of being unable to score in six of their first ten games won’t achieve that …

Maybe he will turn it around though personally I wouldn’t bet on it .

It doesn’t matter if Mansfield are doing better. That’s completely irrelevant to the fact that Wigan are about where they’re expected to be.

On top of that, Wigan were one of the favourites to go down last year. They finished 12th despite a points deduction. He also had a record in the Championship that would have kept them up had he been there the whole season and maintained it even including the points deduction they received last season.

You can think promotion should be Wigan’s objective all you want. The reality is they’re a mid table league one team, recovering from almost going bust with the 4th youngest squad in the English leagues and they’re where they’re expected to be. A few 0-0 draws is nowhere near enough to be getting Maloney, who’s doing a decent job, the sack. And btw, for all the criticism of it, they’ve not conceded a league goal since August and they’ve also won some games in that period as well. Pretty impressive.

[Donegal Hibby]

It doesn’t matter if Mansfield are doing better. That’s completely irrelevant to the fact that Wigan are about where they’re expected to be.

On top of that, Wigan were one of the favourites to go down last year. They finished 12th despite a points deduction. He also had a record in the Championship that would have kept them up had he been there the whole season and maintained it even including the points deduction.

You can think promotion should be Wigan’s objective all you want. The reality is they’re a mid table league one team, recovering from almost going bust and that’s where they’re expected to be. A few 0-0 draws is nowhere near enough to be getting Maloney, who’s doing a decent job, the sack. And btw, for all the criticism of it, they’ve not conceded a league goal since August and they’ve also won some games in that period as well. Pretty impressive.

I think it does matter that Mansfield are doing better when they are a much smaller club that’s moved up a league and are doing better than a club that’s a lot, lot bigger than them that’s already been in the league…

It being irrelevant due to Wigan being where they are expected to be I doubt many Wigan fans would agree with when they see much smaller clubs above them after Maloney was well backed in the summer..

As I said after 10 games they have failed to score in 6 of them and there is quite a few unhappy Wigan fans for this so called decent job you maintain he’s doing . And btw it’s easier to not concede goals when you’re not going to attack which is getting stated by the Wigan fans which we also witnessed too.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think it does matter that Mansfield are doing better when they are a much smaller club that’s moved up a league and are doing better than a club that’s a lot, lot bigger than them that’s already been in the league…

It being irrelevant due to Wigan being where they are expected to be I doubt many Wigan fans would agree with when they see much smaller clubs above them after Maloney was well backed in the summer..

As I said after 10 games they have failed to score in 6 of them and there is quite a few unhappy Wigan fans for this so called decent job you maintain he’s doing . And btw it’s easier to not concede goals when you’re not going to attack which is getting stated by the Wigan fans which we also witnessed too.

Ok. Came in to a club who were in absolute crisis, about to go bust, players not being paid etc and significantly improved them. Started the next season as one of the favourites to go down, with a points deduction, losing their big name players for pretty much nothing and under a transfer ban, ended up mid table. But because he’s drawn some games and got them going pretty much as everyone would expect them to be going this season, with the fourth youngest squad in all 4 of the English leagues, he’s done a poor job.

Right you are :aok:

[Donegal Hibby]

Ok. Came in to a club who were in absolute crisis, about to go bust, players not being paid etc and significantly improved them. Started the next season as one of the favourites to go down, with a points deduction, losing their big name players for pretty much nothing and under a transfer ban, ended up mid table. But because he’s drawn some games and got them going pretty much as everyone would expect them to be going this season, with the fourth youngest squad in all 4 of the English leagues, he’s done a poor job.

Right you are :aok:

Yeah he did go into a club that ended up in crisis that got relegated . They ended up with a new owner and was backed in signing a lot of players .. the striker excuse for them not scoring because their young is down to him signing them rather than going for experience like he did with a keeper…

But that’s not the reason for it though…in an article he states that they have to find another gear in attack , one of his quotes in it was ‘ Even if we have to go side to side 3 or 4 times we have to do it quicker’ …

Which one of the first responses on their forum was …There lies the problem, we are so easy to defend against because we go absolutely no where with the ball and take no risks.

Early days at the moment as I said they are seven points of automatic promotion and six of relegation so it could go either way yet .

I don’t think he’s a good manager and terrible doing interviews as he always looked like a nervous wee boy that Um’s a lot , you think he’s good and doing a good job …

Neither of our opinions on him matter as much as the Wigans fans who don’t seem to be entirely happy with him and what they are watching .

Classic case of possession football with no end product which was much what we seen from him too 👍

[Paulie Walnuts]

Yeah he did go into a club that ended up in crisis that got relegated . They ended up with a new owner and was backed in signing a lot of players .. the striker excuse for them not scoring because their young is down to him signing them rather than going for experience like he did with a keeper…

But that’s not the reason for it though…in an article he states that they have to find another gear in attack , one of his quotes in it was ‘ Even if we have to go side to side 3 or 4 times we have to do it quicker’ …

Which one of the first responses on their forum was …There lies the problem, we are so easy to defend against because we go absolutely no where with the ball and take no risks.

Early days at the moment as I said they are seven points of automatic promotion and six of relegation so it could go either way yet .

I don’t think he’s a good manager and terrible doing interviews as he always looked like a nervous wee boy that Um’s a lot , you think he’s good and doing a good job …

Neither of our opinions on him matter as much as the Wigans fans who don’t seem to be entirely happy with him and what they are watching .

Classic case of possession football with no end product which was much what we seen from him too 👍

‘Ended up in crisis’ :faf:

Aye, he came in and caused the crisis.

I’m out. For someone that never sees fault in anything Hibs do despite repeated failures, you set some quite incredible expectations for other teams managers, expectations that are always miles ahead of what the clubs these guys manage are aiming for.

[Donegal Hibby]

‘Ended up in crisis’ :faf:

Aye, he came in and caused the crisis.

I’m out. For someone that never sees fault in anything Hibs do despite repeated failures, you set some quite incredible expectations for other teams managers, expectations that are always miles ahead of what the clubs these guys manage are aiming for.

No that’s not what I’m saying, he became manager probably unaware of how bad things were and the club which ended up in a crisis , was nothing to do with him , last season the points deduction didn’t help though this season he’s been backed in a lot of signings some of which have cost money and at this moment they aren’t doing to well….

I don’t have any expectations of Maloney but the Wigan fans do and at this moment in time despite you praising him on the wonderful job that he’s doing they aren’t a happy bunch .

Maybe the Wigan fans have it all wrong and you are indeed right :aok:

[Paulie Walnuts]

No that’s not what I’m saying, he became manager probably unaware of how bad things were and the club which ended up in a crisis , was nothing to do with him , last season the points deduction didn’t help though this season he’s been backed in a lot of signings some of which have cost money and at this moment they aren’t doing to well….

I don’t have any expectations of Maloney but the Wigan fans do and at this moment in time despite you praising him on the wonderful job that he’s doing they aren’t a happy bunch .

Maybe the Wigan fans have it all wrong and you are indeed right :aok:

I said hes done a decent job. And I’ve said a decent job numerous times. I’ve never said he’s doing a wonderful job. If you need to make things up to prove your point it usually means you don’t have a point.

Oh, and there’s plenty Wigan fans who are fully aware he’s done a decent job there. The fans were singing his name at the end of their last game 9 days ago.

Anyway, it’s a bit of a waste of time discussing it. You have decided they should be title challengers because they were in the EPL a decade ago despite the fact nobody else thinks that.

[Donegal Hibby]

I said hes done a decent job. And I’ve said a decent job numerous times. I’ve never said he’s doing a wonderful job. If you need to make things up to prove your point it usually means you don’t have a point.

Oh, and there’s plenty Wigan fans who are fully aware he’s done a decent job there.

Each to their own opinion though when I see what managers like Dave Challinor and Nigel Clough are doing at newly promoted clubs that have probably a much smaller budgets than what Maloney’s has I know which I think is doing even better than just a decent job … as I said I don’t think he’s a particularly good manager , his interviews are awful too..

Maybe there are Wigan fans that think he’s doing a decent job though a lot of what I have read is they are calling him a clown and generally unhappy with things … hopefully for the Wigan fans Maloney as he said can get them moving the ball quicker from side to side though :wink::greengrin

[He's here!]

Agreed.

Pig sick of seeing a style of play that is essentially committing to sideways passing until you find that one 'break in the press' or whatever it is these days. That can take what seems like minutes to do, and frequently you give up whatever gain you made and have to start all over again.

Used to be a really engaging exciting sport - still can be of course - but the coaching manual emphasis on everything being so methodical is a huge turn off. Over the course of 90 minutes the enjoyable moments don't outweigh the medium of stalemate.

Boring is the word you're looking for. It stifles individual flair when the team is, as you say, trying (and more often than not failing) to play in such a methodical way.

[Kato]

Surely there is some merit in possession play at times. That last 10 minutes at Ibrox under John Collins when the stickies couldn't get the ball off us was hilarious. Horses for courses of course.

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[The Modfather]

Surely there is some merit in possession play at times. That last 10 minutes at Ibrox under John Collins when the stickies couldn't get the ball off us was hilarious. Horses for courses of course.

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I remember that game well. Sportscene showed 60 seconds or so of us keeping the ball in the highlights without it leading to anything such was the dominance and out of the norm for a team going to Ibrox. Possibly Rob Jones best game for us as well.

Collins took us on several levels few others have matched, shame it was only for the briefest of spells before it all fell apart.

[heretoday]

I don’t even like modern football when Man City play it. Yawn.

You're right. It must be tedious watching that stuff every week.

[blackpoolhibs]

You're right. It must be tedious watching that stuff every week.
:greengrin:greengrin:greengrin