Is it maybe us?

[JohnM1875]

Can't find the source, but I'm sure I seen it in the last week that in the SPFL/Premiership era Motherwell have finished third more than we have. All I could find was;

Top-six finishes 2000/01 – 2016/17


17 Celtic
13 Hearts
13 Rangers
10 Aberdeen
9 Dundee United
9 Motherwell
7 Hibernian
6 St Johnstone
5 Kilmarnock
3 Dundee
3 Dunfermline Athletic
3 Inverness Caley Thistle
2 Ross County
1 Livingston
1 Partick Thistle

Honestly, what the **** is the matter with us? How do we fix it?

[Trinity Hibee]

Can't find the source, but I'm sure I seen it in the last week that in the SPFL/Premiership era Motherwell have finished third more than we have. All I could find was;

Top-six finishes 2000/01 – 2016/17


17 Celtic
13 Hearts
13 Rangers
10 Aberdeen
9 Dundee United
9 Motherwell
7 Hibernian
6 St Johnstone
5 Kilmarnock
3 Dundee
3 Dunfermline Athletic
3 Inverness Caley Thistle
2 Ross County
1 Livingston
1 Partick Thistle

Honestly, what the **** is the matter with us? How do we fix it?

Our top 3/4/6 stats are ****ing *****! We are a basket case most of the time

I think we have finished top 6 12 times since we got promoted in 1999

[theonlywayisup]

And when we finished 3rd, we sacked the manager who also got us to two cup finals and one semifinal. Ah but the football was not great and we were re on a bad run of form. That worked out well didn't it.

I also recall when Collins had us playing winning football in the season he left us that fans were complaining that the performances didn't match the results.

Basket case is a good comment. I'm totally sick of diddy teams coming to Easter Road singing "Hibees are falling apart".

[The Modfather]

And when we finished 3rd, we sacked the manager who also got us to two cup finals and one semifinal. Ah but the football was not great and we were re on a bad run of form. That worked out well didn't it.

I also recall when Collins had us playing winning football in the season he left us that fans were complaining that the performances didn't match the results.

Basket case is a good comment. I'm totally sick of diddy teams coming to Easter Road singing "Hibees are falling apart".

Hearts sacked their version of Jack Ross in Robbie Neilson and replaced him with Naismith. Who delivered 3rd and group stage European football. Aberdeen sacked Robson and within a season are now top of the league having won 6 from 6.

We sacked Jack Ross and have churned through Maloney, Johnson, Monty and currently Gray. With a solitary, unconvincing, 5th place to show for it. Why are we as fans part of the problem, yet Aberdeen & Hearts act the same as we do but see a positive impact from doing so?

[Onion]

It is us.

If you were a Hibs player who would you enjoy beating more, Dundee or Celtic ? Motherwell or Rangers ? Fact is, because of our flashy ground, incredible history and some extent bigger budget, "smaller" teams raise and sharpen their game when they play Hibs - especially at ER. They not only get a scalp, they can showcase on a bigger stage.

For Motherwell, St Mirren, Dundee, Killie etc etc, a top 6 finish or getting into Europe is like winning the league. They're highly motivated to get there. For Hearts and Aberdeen, the regular revenue is the driver. Hibs are in a horrible middle ground, very little credit or prestige in getting a top 6 and just not good enough to compete for 3rd. And mocked relentlessly in the media for failure.

[Bobo]

The mindset at the club has been poor for decades where we have perpetually underachieved since the mid 70's. We have a soft mentality, very little desire and even less belief. There have been a few strong charachters during that time where we have witnessed an upturn in our mindset and performances but it's been all too seldom and all too brief.

Strong minded, no nonsense characters like Tom Hart and Eddie Turnbull were behind the Tornadoes era and each and every player who graced that team truly knew what it meant to play for the club. There has been other brief moments of enjoyment during the McLeish, Mowbray, Stubbs and Lennon periods as well as the Alex Miller period, during all our adversity, when everyone at the club (officials, players and supporters) understood the importance of Hibernian and took nothing for granted.

Yes the club may be making great progress off the field commercially but that counts for nothing if the product on the pitch is poor and the stands are empty on match days! I've had a season ticket for 45 years now and never thought my apathy would ever reach such a level that I'd contemplate doing something else with my Saturdays, I'm sure I'm not alone.

We need direction on the pitch, a team that enthuses, that is forward thinking and is set up to attack teams with a purpose not the bland, insipid, negative and sterile crap that we've been subjected to for far too long.

Something has to change, and soon, as our decline is rapid. Whether it's a change of Owners, Board Members, Manager/Coaching Staff or Players; who knows but it seems we are just going around in circles lurching from one failure to the next, rinse and repeat ad nauseum!

Sorry for the rant, it's just how I feel. I'm sure there are many others who are fed up having their weekends regularly ruined after 90 minutes of misery at Easter Road or after having travelled the lenght and breadth of the country to be continuously disappointed by the same poor performances. ☹️

[Pretty Boy]

We are a pretty mediocre club who happen to have a bigger fanbase than other mediocre or downright rubbish clubs so people seem to think we should be something we really aren't.

People get really upset when the term accepting mediocrity is used but if they are being honest with themselves I think a lot of fans have very much made peace with our place in the pecking order and our abject mediocrity. I've lost count of the times I have read people say 'well we have been crap for most of my lifetime so that's just the way it is, don't like it go and support Celtic/Man City/Real Madrid'. If that isn't being accepting of something then I don't know what is.

I'm not othering people. I'm exactly the same; I spend most of my time when discussing football trying to make excuses for Hibs mediocrity to fans of other clubs and moaning about how cramped we are to other Hibs fans whilst deep down I know this is really it. A good season, a few years of dross, a really stinking season, another couple seasons of dross,a good season and repeat and repeat.

[DH1875]

And how many of them did we finish 5th or 6th? Club have played a blinder making it seem as if finishing 6th is some sort of achievement.
Imagine there wasn't a split, just a straight forward 12 team league. Would finishing 6th still be that big a deal.

[Since90+2]

It is us.

If you were a Hibs player who would you enjoy beating more, Dundee or Celtic ? Motherwell or Rangers ? Fact is, because of our flashy ground, incredible history and some extent bigger budget, "smaller" teams raise and sharpen their game when they play Hibs - especially at ER. They not only get a scalp, they can showcase on a bigger stage.

For Motherwell, St Mirren, Dundee, Killie etc etc, a top 6 finish or getting into Europe is like winning the league. They're highly motivated to get there. For Hearts and Aberdeen, the regular revenue is the driver. Hibs are in a horrible middle ground, very little credit or prestige in getting a top 6 and just not good enough to compete for 3rd. And mocked relentlessly in the media for failure.

I don't think the clubs you mention see us as a scalp at all.

We are in and around their level, nobody is really that surprised if teams like Motherwell come to ER and win. In some circles it's probably expected.

[Musselbound]

I don't think the clubs you mention see us as a scalp at all.

We are in and around their level, nobody is really that surprised if teams like Motherwell come to ER and win. In some circles it's probably expected.

The reality is there's very little difference in quality between most of the teams in the league, however we like to think of ourselves. Right now top 6 is a decent target to aim for as we look off it. History shows this is not as easy to achieve as most fans would like to think. It may also help if we stopped sacking managers for being out of or failing to make top 6 as they need more time than that to develop a team.

[Chorley Hibee]

And how many of them did we finish 5th or 6th? Club have played a blinder making it seem as if finishing 6th is some sort of achievement.
Imagine there wasn't a split, just a straight forward 12 team league. Would finishing 6th still be that big a deal.

Exactly.

The culture at the club has stank for years.

It has now been accepted by a proportion of our support too.

[He's here!]

I don't think the clubs you mention see us as a scalp at all.

We are in and around their level, nobody is really that surprised if teams like Motherwell come to ER and win. In some circles it's probably expected.

That sums up how we're perceived. A club with a bigger stadium and support than most but almost never a team to fear. I've only just spotted this thread having started another on how utterly mediocre our league record has been over the last half century, so perhaps they could be merged.

[Keepthefaith]

It is baffling to look at the stats and it obviously points to mismanagement. I do genuinely believe the Gordon's see this underachievement and are intent on pushing us forward...the difficulty is the decisions made to try and achieve this have failed miserably.

The link up and investment from BK should also be lifting us beyond this underachievement but again there's no sign of this impacting this season.

Seeing us finish 3rd under Lennon, the significant increase in crowds and the regularity of getting to semis/ finals for years in a row do show we potential to be so so much bigger. I don't want to write off season yet and do think it's too early to despite the concerning points total but the reality as many of us know may only come with the clear out at the end of this season.

[He's here!]

It is baffling to look at the stats and it obviously points to mismanagement. I do genuinely believe the Gordon's see this underachievement and are intent on pushing us forward...the difficulty is the decisions made to try and achieve this have failed miserably.

The link up and investment from BK should also be lifting us beyond this underachievement but again there's no sign of this impacting this season.

Seeing us finish 3rd under Lennon, the significant increase in crowds and the regularity of getting to semis/ finals for years in a row do show we potential to be so so much bigger. I don't want to write off season yet and do think it's too early to despite the concerning points total but the reality as many of us know may only come with the clear out at the end of this season.

Fourth. But we were very much in with a chance of second in the final week or two. As you say, on the rare occasions things go well the club's potential is underlined.

[He's here!]

We are a pretty mediocre club who happen to have a bigger fanbase than other mediocre or downright rubbish clubs so people seem to think we should be something we really aren't.

People get really upset when the term accepting mediocrity is used but if they are being honest with themselves I think a lot of fans have very much made peace with our place in the pecking order and our abject mediocrity. I've lost count of the times I have read people say 'well we have been crap for most of my lifetime so that's just the way it is, don't like it go and support Celtic/Man City/Real Madrid'. If that isn't being accepting of something then I don't know what is.

I'm not othering people. I'm exactly the same; I spend most of my time when discussing football trying to make excuses for Hibs mediocrity to fans of other clubs and moaning about how cramped we are to other Hibs fans whilst deep down I know this is really it. A good season, a few years of dross, a really stinking season, another couple seasons of dross,a good season and repeat and repeat.

I agree with what you say, but the bigger fanbase, stadium, facilities etc should surely count for something in terms of elevating us above the other 'mediocre or downright rubbish clubs'. That's the root of the frustration and why fans are so loathe to just 'make our peace with our place in the pecking order'.

What is it with Hibs that, basically since the Tornadoes era, we've so rarely risen above mediocrity? Why does the club more often than not appear so soft? Does Edinburgh play a part? 'Not really a football city' is a term sometimes used. Hearts' record since the 50s, when analysed closely, is not actually anything special either but it's made to seem better than it is because of their dominance of the derby.

[Septimus]

The sad thing is that the potential is there to achieve very much more than we do. Look at the crowds who materialised at the cup win. We need to invest to improve but we still scrounge around the lower echelons of availability for players in much the same way as the Motherwells of the league do. We do not think big so we underachieve.

[Hibees1973]

We are the best away trip for the so called 'diddy teams'

Visit to Edinburgh for a bit of sightseeing, then down to our great stadium to collect three points. The vast majority of these are a late winner on the back of some comedy defending by one of our clowns.

Become the norm over the last 3-4 years.

[Paulie Walnuts]

We are the best away trip for the so called 'diddy teams'

Visit to Edinburgh for a bit of sightseeing, then down to our great stadium to collect three points. The vast majority of these are a late winner on the back of some comedy defending by one of our clowns.

Become the norm over the last 3-4 years.

I said the same the other day but it wasn’t regarding the actual football. ER must be a great away trip and probably the best in the league. That’s without even considering what you’ve just said :greengrin

[Musselbound]

Exactly.

The culture at the club has stank for years.

It has now been accepted by a proportion of our support too.

How do you go about not accepting it and channel that? You'd have to go back to the Turnbull's Tornadoes era of the early to mid 70s to find a time when we were consistently better over a sustained period. I'm 55 now and too young to remember watching them.

[LunasBoots]

I much preferred watching us on our old smaller pitch, since it's been made larger it's never really given us much advantage, nowadays we have a far more passive support who just go along to watch a game.

[LoaningCrHibbie]

The mindset at the club has been poor for decades where we have perpetually underachieved since the mid 70's. We have a soft mentality, very little desire and even less belief. There have been a few strong charachters during that time where we have witnessed an upturn in our mindset and performances but it's been all too seldom and all too brief.

Strong minded, no nonsense characters like Tom Hart and Eddie Turnbull were behind the Tornadoes era and each and every player who graced that team truly knew what it meant to play for the club. There has been other brief moments of enjoyment during the McLeish, Mowbray, Stubbs and Lennon periods as well as the Alex Miller period, during all our adversity, when everyone at the club (officials, players and supporters) understood the importance of Hibernian and took nothing for granted.

Yes the club may be making great progress off the field commercially but that counts for nothing if the product on the pitch is poor and the stands are empty on match days! I've had a season ticket for 45 years now and never thought my apathy would ever reach such a level that I'd contemplate doing something else with my Saturdays, I'm sure I'm not alone.

We need direction on the pitch, a team that enthuses, that is forward thinking and is set up to attack teams with a purpose not the bland, insipid, negative and sterile crap that we've been subjected to for far too long.

Something has to change, and soon, as our decline is rapid. Whether it's a change of Owners, Board Members, Manager/Coaching Staff or Players; who knows but it seems we are just going around in circles lurching from one failure to the next, rinse and repeat ad nauseum!

Sorry for the rant, it's just how I feel. I'm sure there are many others who are fed up having their weekends regularly ruined after 90 minutes of misery at Easter Road or after having travelled the lenght and breadth of the country to be continuously disappointed by the same poor performances. ☹️

Excellent post Bobo ! ... I am old enough to have had the honour of watching Turnbull's Tornadoes, wow ! they were some team ! they instilled in me a confidence boarding on arrogance (especially when it came to the derby) between 1.1.69 and 26.8.78 Hibs were 1 game short of (22 in a row) !!! ... and that was in the days of only playing them twice a season ! ... can you imagine how many more victories Hibs arguably would have got if it had been 4 times a season ? Hearts dodged one hell of a bullet then. Anyway, back to today and as Bobo said we need no nonsense people who know what they are doing in charge of the team and beyond. This club should be challenging for (3rd) every season no if's no but's, and never finish below 5th. Sounds arrogant ? maybe, but that's the way I feel. Oh! one last thing it should be drummed into the players that the derby is not just another game !

[Viva_Palmeiras]

And when we finished 3rd, we sacked the manager who also got us to two cup finals and one semifinal. Ah but the football was not great and we were re on a bad run of form. That worked out well didn't it.

I also recall when Collins had us playing winning football in the season he left us that fans were complaining that the performances didn't match the results.

Basket case is a good comment. I'm totally sick of diddy teams coming to Easter Road singing "Hibees are falling apart".

if that’s bothering you better watch out for life’s curveballs….

many of them weren’t born when Joy Division were strutting themselves or Ryan Giggs doing his (football) thing.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Before condeming us re Basketcase club please consider Aberdeen.

Aitken
Hegarty
Miller
Miller
Tangoman
Skovdahl
Pele (bundled out Pittodrie in the boot of a car!)
…
Glass
that Aberdeen boy from Celtic…

and I’ve prob missed a couple.

No club - no matter reputation or money (United, The Rangers) has a divine right…

Cup Winners Cup, Super Cup

Famous Five, Tornadoes

Similarly we need to define our new era.

[He's here!]

Before condeming us re Basketcase club please consider Aberdeen.

Aitken
Hegarty
Miller
Miller
Tangoman
Skovdahl
Pele (bundled out Pittodrie in the boot of a car!)
…
Glass
that Aberdeen boy from Celtic…

and I’ve prob missed a couple.

No club - no matter reputation or money (United, The Rangers) has a divine right…

Cup Winners Cup, Super Cup

Famous Five, Tornadoes

Similarly we need to define our new era.

Willie Miller finished second twice with Aberdeen and Calderwood did a decent job overall (undermined by a couple of woeful cup exits).

As you say, it all pales in comparison with the Fergie era but that was near miraculous.

[cabbageandribs1875]

used to be a time when hibs sides would give the opposition a goal start at ER and it never bothered us that much because we knew the sleeves would get pulled up for the 2nd half



it also helped shooting down the slope






bring back the slope for the love of God :grr:


p.s. and get better players/management

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Willie Miller finished second twice with Aberdeen and Calderwood did a decent job overall (undermined by a couple of woeful cup exits).

As you say, it all pales in comparison with the Fergie era but that was near miraculous.

I was up there 91-92 with the Smithy must go chants that set the managerial merry-go-round wheel in motion… he came within a baws hair of the league title…

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Willie Miller finished second twice with Aberdeen and Calderwood did a decent job overall (undermined by a couple of woeful cup exits).

As you say, it all pales in comparison with the Fergie era but that was near miraculous.

if you think out bogey team is St Johnstone - in the Miller Mcleish era and beyond they’ve been on the end of cup drubbings off the Saintees. Let’s not forget even until our cup record with Jack Ross out semi and final record out landed the of was second to none (outside the uglies) And until the later years when MacInnes got jammy against us we tended to over come them in semis. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bet water but ffs Hibs do get grip.

[CB Hibs 68]

The mindset at the club has been poor for decades where we have perpetually underachieved since the mid 70's. We have a soft mentality, very little desire and even less belief. There have been a few strong charachters during that time where we have witnessed an upturn in our mindset and performances but it's been all too seldom and all too brief.

Strong minded, no nonsense characters like Tom Hart and Eddie Turnbull were behind the Tornadoes era and each and every player who graced that team truly knew what it meant to play for the club. There has been other brief moments of enjoyment during the McLeish, Mowbray, Stubbs and Lennon periods as well as the Alex Miller period, during all our adversity, when everyone at the club (officials, players and supporters) understood the importance of Hibernian and took nothing for granted.

Yes the club may be making great progress off the field commercially but that counts for nothing if the product on the pitch is poor and the stands are empty on match days! I've had a season ticket for 45 years now and never thought my apathy would ever reach such a level that I'd contemplate doing something else with my Saturdays, I'm sure I'm not alone.

We need direction on the pitch, a team that enthuses, that is forward thinking and is set up to attack teams with a purpose not the bland, insipid, negative and sterile crap that we've been subjected to for far too long.

Something has to change, and soon, as our decline is rapid. Whether it's a change of Owners, Board Members, Manager/Coaching Staff or Players; who knows but it seems we are just going around in circles lurching from one failure to the next, rinse and repeat ad nauseum!

Sorry for the rant, it's just how I feel. I'm sure there are many others who are fed up having their weekends regularly ruined after 90 minutes of misery at Easter Road or after having travelled the lenght and breadth of the country to be continuously disappointed by the same poor performances. ☹️

Share your pain..Mind you when I started supporting Hibs nobody gave me a guarantee we were going to to be successful.Simple fact is Hibs are most of the time not very good .Occasionally brilliant and thems the facts.Love us to be better obviously but this is what being a Hibs fan is like.I know been at ER since 68

[LaMotta]

League form has been dreadful.

Interesting to look at major cups won over the last 60 years (excluding Rangers/Celtic)

Aberdeen - 16
Dundee United - 5
Hibs - 4
Kilmarnock - 3
Hearts -3
St Mirren - 2
St Johnstone 2
Motherwell - 1
Ross County - 1
Inverness - 1
Raith Rovers 1
Dundee - 1
Patrick Thistle - 1
Dunfermline - 1
Livvy - 1

Not really sure what that tells us other than Fergie was unbelievable for Aberdeen, who are miles ahead (although not in recent times) and Hearts aren't as a big a club as their fans seem to think.

That covid season really should have seen us jump up the rankings, if we had just figured out how to beat St Johnstone.

[B.H.F.C]

League form has been dreadful.

Interesting to look at major cups won over the last 60 years (excluding Rangers/Celtic)

Aberdeen - 16
Dundee United - 5
Hibs - 4
Kilmarnock - 3
Hearts -3
St Mirren - 2
St Johnstone 2
Motherwell - 1
Ross County - 1
Inverness - 1
Raith Rovers 1
Dundee - 1
Patrick Thistle - 1
Dunfermline - 1
Livvy - 1

Not really sure what that tells us other than Fergie was unbelievable for Aberdeen, who are miles ahead (although not in recent times) and Hearts aren't as a big a club as their fans seem to think.

That covid season really should have seen us jump up the rankings, if we had just figured out how to beat St Johnstone.

No just the Covid season. We’ve had so many missed opportunities in cups. Livingston and Ross County in cup finals. And I always think that, despite it being Celtic, the most recent League Cup final was a big missed opportunity.

Still, we’re only behind teams who had the greatest Scottish manager of all time and one of the greatest in Ferguson and McLean.

[LaMotta]

No just the Covid season. We’ve had so many missed opportunities in cups. Livingston and Ross County in cup finals. And I always think that, despite it being Celtic, the most recent League Cup final was a big missed opportunity.

Still, we’re only behind teams who had the greatest Scottish manager of all time and one of the greatest in Ferguson and McLean.

The Ross County defeat I can cope with, because if we'd won that we very likely wouldn't have won the Scottish I reckon. I left the ground raging, but it was totally worth the wait for what happened 2 months later.:greengrin

Totally right about the Celtic cup final - I missed the goal at the toilet, by the time id sat down, Kyogo had equalised. If we had just settled after the goal who knows.

Also missed opportunity losing to Hearts in the reschduled semi in 2020. Nisbet's penalty goes in, we play a Celtic team in the midst of a meltdown with Lennon losing the plot.

[He's here!]

The Ross County defeat I can cope with, because if we'd won that we very likely wouldn't have won the Scottish I reckon. I left the ground raging, but it was totally worth the wait for what happened 2 months later.:greengrin

County were also a top flight side whereas we were in the Championship. There was next to nothing in the game tho and at 1-1 I was all but sure we'd go on to win. We definitely didn't bottle it though.

The Livi final saw us fluff our lines in front of a massive Hibs support. We had the young talent in our team to win it but Livi were actually a better team than Hibs at that time..

[Chorley Hibee]

The Ross County defeat I can cope with, because if we'd won that we very likely wouldn't have won the Scottish I reckon. I left the ground raging, but it was totally worth the wait for what happened 2 months later.:greengrin

Totally right about the Celtic cup final - I missed the goal at the toilet, by the time id sat down, Kyogo had equalised. If we had just settled after the goal who knows.

Also missed opportunity losing to Hearts in the reschduled semi in 2020. Nisbet's penalty goes in, we play a Celtic team in the midst of a meltdown with Lennon losing the plot.

In recent times too there's been a League Cup Semi-Final loss to St Johnstone (which would have resulted in a final against Livingston) and a Scottish Cup Semi Final loss to Falkirk (which would have resulted in a final against Inverness).

Those have been pretty painful as well.

[B.H.F.C]

The Ross County defeat I can cope with, because if we'd won that we very likely wouldn't have won the Scottish I reckon. I left the ground raging, but it was totally worth the wait for what happened 2 months later.:greengrin

Totally right about the Celtic cup final - I missed the goal at the toilet, by the time id sat down, Kyogo had equalised. If we had just settled after the goal who knows.

Also missed opportunity losing to Hearts in the reschduled semi in 2020. Nisbet's penalty goes in, we play a Celtic team in the midst of a meltdown with Lennon losing the plot.

Hadn’t even thought about the Hearts semi final.

Just always think the Celtic League Cup game went exactly as we needed it up until scoring, Celtic were really poor. And even after they went 2-1 up we still had chances and should have had a penalty.

You can even look at last year and we should have beaten Aberdeen in the semi final and had a final against Rangers who were coming off a European game on the Thursday.

[He's here!]

The Ross County defeat I can cope with, because if we'd won that we very likely wouldn't have won the Scottish I reckon. I left the ground raging, but it was totally worth the wait for what happened 2 months later.:greengrin

Totally right about the Celtic cup final - I missed the goal at the toilet, by the time id sat down, Kyogo had equalised. If we had just settled after the goal who knows.

Also missed opportunity losing to Hearts in the reschduled semi in 2020. Nisbet's penalty goes in, we play a Celtic team in the midst of a meltdown with Lennon losing the plot.

The two biggest f***-ups I've seen were when we lost to Ayr in the League Cup semi (under McLeish I think?) and when we lost to all-but relegated Dunfermline in the Scottish Cup semi-final under Collins. The fact the Dunfermline game was a replay made it even worse. Player 'revolt' did for us.

[LaMotta]

In recent times too there's been a League Cup Semi-Final loss to St Johnstone (which would have resulted in a final against Livingston) and a Scottish Cup Semi Final loss to Falkirk (which would have resulted in a final against Inverness).

Those have been pretty painful as well.

I'd forgotten about that Falkirk defeat in 2015, a horrible moment when they scored - McGeoch totally switched off at the back post.:boo hoo:

[LaMotta]

Hadn’t even thought about the Hearts semi final.

Just always think the Celtic League Cup game went exactly as we needed it up until scoring, Celtic were really poor. And even after they went 2-1 up we still had chances and should have had a penalty.

You can even look at last year and we should have beaten Aberdeen in the semi final and had a final against Rangers who were coming off a European game on the Thursday.


The two biggest f***-ups I've seen were when we lost to Ayr in the League Cup semi (under McLeish I think?) and when we lost to all-but relegated Dunfermline in the Scottish Cup semi-final under Collins. The fact the Dunfermline game was a replay made it even worse. Player 'revolt' did for us.

I'm pretty sure over the last 15 years or so we've been to Hampden way more than other side outwith the big two. So many missed opportunities.

[He's here!]

Hadn’t even thought about the Hearts semi final.

Just always think the Celtic League Cup game went exactly as we needed it up until scoring, Celtic were really poor. And even after they went 2-1 up we still had chances and should have had a penalty.

You can even look at last year and we should have beaten Aberdeen in the semi final and had a final against Rangers who were coming off a European game on the Thursday.

That Celtic final was a reason I thought Gray might be a decent shout as manager. As you say we managed it very well, much better than any Hampden appearance against Celtic for many years.

I'm very down on the club right now but I don't yet think Gray is the problem. Would love to see him turn things around but I'm not convinced he'll get the time with the pressure already on.

[He's here!]

In recent times too there's been a League Cup Semi-Final loss to St Johnstone (which would have resulted in a final against Livingston) and a Scottish Cup Semi Final loss to Falkirk (which would have resulted in a final against Inverness).

Those have been pretty painful as well.

St Johnstone had our measure that day (or was it night?) but we should have won the Falkirk semi.

[LaMotta]

That Celtic final was a reason I thought Gray might be a decent shout as manager. As you say we managed it very well, much better than any Hampden appearance against Celtic for many years.

I'm very down on the club right now but I don't yet think Gray is the problem. Would love to see him turn things around but I'm not convinced he'll get the time with the pressure already on.

Lewis mentioned on that Si Ferry podcast that Gray did a truly inspirational speech before the game that day. We certainly played well enough to deserve sneaking it in to extra time.