The rise of the far right in Germany

[Keith_M]

Today is the 'Landtagswahlen', or State Elections, in two of the former East German states, Thüringen and Sachsen*.

Sadly the voting so far has the far right 'Alternative für Deutschland' (AFD) on 30%+ of the vote, and most likely to win in Thüringen.


As someone who loves Germany and has links with the former east, this is a very sad day for me. I've been watching TV interviews with voters in both states and the common theme is immigrants/foreigners (sound familiar?)

The AFD purposely appeals to anti-immigrant views, much like the Fidesz party in Hungary, 'Reform' here in the UK and Donald Trump's Republicans. It's sad that politics of this kind are now drawing in disaffected voters in so many countries... willing to believe that immigration is the cause of so many of their problems.

I don't know what the solution is to this but we need to start looking to find one, or things will keep turning for the worse.



* Or Thuringia and Saxony, as we call them over here.

[Stairway 2 7]

Today is the 'Landtagswahlen', or State Elections, in two of the former East German states, Thüringen and Sachsen*.

Sadly the voting so far has the far right 'Alternative für Deutschland' (AFD) on 30%+ of the vote, and most likely to win in Thüringen.


As someone who loves Germany and has links with the former east, this is a very sad day for me. I've been watching TV interviews with voters in both states and the common theme is immigrants/foreigners (sound familiar?)

The AFD purposely appeals to anti-immigrant views, much like the Fidesz party in Hungary, 'Reform' here in the UK and Donald Trump's Republicans. It's sad that politics of this kind are now drawing in disaffected voters in so many countries... willing to believe that immigration is the cause of so many of their problems.

I don't now what the solution is to this but we need to start looking to find one, or things will keep turning for the worse.



* Or Thuringia and Saxony, as we call them over here.

Perfect storm of a terrible economy that's just went into recession, large immigration and a terrible stabbing the other week. Thankfully no one will work with the **** bags in coalition I don't think. CDU doing well all but confirms them being in control after the next election imo

[Hibrandenburg]

Like Reform/UKIP/Tories in the UK, the AfD have pitched an agenda at racists and are reaping the rewards. The difference between Germany and the UK however is clear, more than 66% of the population outright reject fascist policy and we won't see the likes of what we witnessed in the UK where a fascist government swept to power in a landslide victory. The AfD's power base is in the former East and I doubt very much that they will win substantial support or at least enough support in the former West to gain any significant power in government. I can't see Germany's equivalent of the Red Wall suddenly turning brown so main stream parties will still hold the balance of power.

Germany's economy is currently in decline, but as a country that manufactures and exports, that's no real surprise considering many of the countries they export to are also suffering economical challenges. Despite the current decline, Germany needs immigration and those regions that fail to attract immigrants will suffer the most. Paradoxically, those regions that have strongly supported the AfD, are those with the most migration to other parts of Germany and simultaneously the regions with the least migration, but we see that paradox in the UK too.

That said, Germany has to find a balance between an open door policy which they have had up until now and what is strengthening the hand of the far right, and that what the far right demand. Germany has been a soft touch for criminal migrants but that appears to be changing, deportation of criminal migrants have resumed this week and there's been a clamp down on false asylum claims after several high profile cases of asylum seekers taking vacations in the countries they're supposed to be fleeing for their lives.

Maybe giving the far right a chance in government is even the answer to Germany's far right problem, we saw what happened to Johnson's far right government and there's no reason to believe that the AfD would be any more competent than them, once you scratch below the surface of the AfD, you'll find a mixed soup of nazis, religious bigots, Reichsbürger and capitalist extremists. They'd last maximum one term in office before eating themselves alive.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Like Reform/UKIP/Tories in the UK, the AfD have pitched an agenda at racists and are reaping the rewards. The difference between Germany and the UK however is clear, more than 66% of the population outright reject fascist policy and we won't see the likes of what we witnessed in the UK where a fascist government swept to power in a landslide victory. The AfD's power base is in the former East and I doubt very much that they will win substantial support or at least enough support in the former West to gain any significant power in government. I can't see Germany's equivalent of the Red Wall suddenly turning brown so main stream parties will still hold the balance of power.

Germany's economy is currently in decline, but as a country that manufactures and exports, that's no real surprise considering many of the countries they export to are also suffering economical challenges. Despite the current decline, Germany needs immigration and those regions that fail to attract immigrants will suffer the most. Paradoxically, those regions that have strongly supported the AfD, are those with the most migration to other parts of Germany and simultaneously the regions with the least migration, but we see that paradox in the UK too.

That said, Germany has to find a balance between an open door policy which they have had up until now and what is strengthening the hand of the far right, and that what the far right demand. Germany has been a soft touch for criminal migrants but that appears to be changing, deportation of criminal migrants have resumed this week and there's been a clamp down on false asylum claims after several high profile cases of asylum seekers taking vacations in the countries they're supposed to be fleeing for their lives.

Maybe giving the far right a chance in government is even the answer to Germany's far right problem, we saw what happened to Johnson's far right government and there's no reason to believe that the AfD would be any more competent than them, once you scratch below the surface of the AfD, you'll find a mixed soup of nazis, religious bigots, Reichsbürger and capitalist extremists. They'd last maximum one term in office before eating themselves alive.

I think that's a gross over-simplification. The died-in-the-wool racists will be in there, but it's much more significantly to do with the failure of the left to represent these people and make the right arguments about what is causing all of the problems we have - or when they do make those arguments, they chicken out on delivering, like Syriza in Greece, because the centre-right lures them into compromising. What's worse is that the centre-left has drifted so far to the right, they'll soon be getting outflanked to the left on economic policies by folk like Reform and AfD, as the space is waiting to be taken.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that's a gross over-simplification. The died-in-the-wool racists will be in there, but it's much more significantly to do with the failure of the left to represent these people and make the right arguments about what is causing all of the problems we have - or when they do make those arguments, they chicken out on delivering, like Syriza in Greece, because the centre-right lures them into compromising. What's worse is that the centre-left has drifted so far to the right, they'll soon be getting outflanked to the left on economic policies by folk like Reform and AfD, as the space is waiting to be taken.

I believe there are both simple and complicated reasons people vote for far right parties. There's a wide spectrum of racists out there, from your frothing at the mouth nazi to to grandpa who just doesn't feel comfortable amongst foreigners. There's a hell of a lot of votes to be had from that demographic if you can push the right buttons.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I believe there are both simple and complicated reasons people vote for far right parties. There's a wide spectrum of racists out there, from your frothing at the mouth nazi to to grandpa who just doesn't feel comfortable amongst foreigners. There's a hell of a lot of votes to be had from that demographic if you can push the right buttons.

I don't disagree (also, 'gross oversimplification' was arguably a bit strong, ironically)...I just don't think that treating them all as racists gets very far, as it just forces things down into the abyss of identity politics, when we should be talking about economics and the climate, not where people come from.

[lapsedhibee]

I believe there are both simple and complicated reasons people vote for far right parties. There's a wide spectrum of racists out there, from your frothing at the mouth nazi to to grandpa who just doesn't feel comfortable amongst foreigners. There's a hell of a lot of votes to be had from that demographic if you can push the right buttons.

Is that fair? Some foreigners would have been trying to kill the grandpas of many people on this board in the early part of their lives, so there's almost bound to be a bit of diffidence about foreigners there, but people who are becoming grandpas now (also many people on this board) will not have that outlook. The g-word to describe that demographic is surely gullible, rather than grandpa? :dunno:

[Keith_M]

...
Maybe giving the far right a chance in government is even the answer to Germany's far right problem, we saw what happened to Johnson's far right government and there's no reason to believe that the AfD would be any more competent than them, once you scratch below the surface of the AfD, you'll find a mixed soup of nazis, religious bigots, Reichsbürger and capitalist extremists. They'd last maximum one term in office before eating themselves alive.


That was my wife's feelings about this as well. Let them show what they can... or more likely cannot... do and people will soon see they're just a sham and have no real answers.


Interestingly, the AFD were much more successful in the rural areas in Sachsen, while the urban areas were mostly CDU, or even Greens.

Would be interesting to find out why that was the case.

[Keith_M]

I don't disagree (also, 'gross oversimplification' was arguably a bit strong, ironically)...I just don't think that treating them all as racists gets very far, as it just forces things down into the abyss of identity politics, when we should be talking about economics and the climate, not where people come from.


Have to agree. I get the feeling that a large number of people are drawn to these kind of parties because they feel ignored by mainstream politicians.

I'm not saying I agree with their views, but think it's very dangerous to just dismiss 'concerns' of large swathes of the population. That's playing into the hands of the extremists.

[Kato]

Billionaires and billionaire media barons and their tools pushing people apart, putting a noose around any conversation involving them.

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[Ozyhibby]

That was my wife's feelings about this as well. Let them show what they can... or more likely cannot... do and people will soon see they're just a sham and have no real answers.


Interestingly, the AFD were much more successful in the rural areas in Sachsen, while the urban areas were mostly CDU, or even Greens.

Would be interesting to find out why that was the case.

That’s the same everywhere isn’t it?
City people don’t really fear immigration and rural people do?
I always assume that the people who live beside migrants in the cities are used to it and rural people are afraid of the unknown and different. They think they don’t like what the cities have become.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I don't disagree (also, 'gross oversimplification' was arguably a bit strong, ironically)...I just don't think that treating them all as racists gets very far, as it just forces things down into the abyss of identity politics, when we should be talking about economics and the climate, not where people come from.

I'm not sure your average far right voter even thinks about economics or climate, if they did then once they scratched below the surface of parties like the AfD and Reform, then they'd find climate change denial. The far right offer simple solutions to complicated problems and their main message is that foreigners are bad, saying that people vote for far right parties for reasons other than xenophobic ones doesn't hold up, either these people who vote for them are gullible (I've avoided saying stupid) or they're racist or at least willing to accept racist values.

[Hibrandenburg]

Is that fair? Some foreigners would have been trying to kill the grandpas of many people on this board in the early part of their lives, so there's almost bound to be a bit of diffidence about foreigners there, but people who are becoming grandpas now (also many people on this board) will not have that outlook. The g-word to describe that demographic is surely gullible, rather than grandpa? :dunno:

I'm not sure of your point, most people who are alive today have never had to experience war. Am I to understand that you think some forms of xenophobia are OK because of past personal experiences?

[lapsedhibee]

I'm not sure of your point, most people who are alive today have never had to experience war. Am I to understand that you think some forms of xenophobia are OK because of past personal experiences?

I've probably misunderstood your original point about grandpas. One of my own grandfathers' first experience of being in a foreign country was as a 16-year old in Belgium in the early part of WWI. He never went back. Not a xenophobe, but I'm not confident he would have voted against Brexit, and I wouldn't be that quick to condemn him for it.

As you suggest, people who took part in WWI and WWII have died out now. I didn't understand why you were mentioning grandpas in the context of racism. Seemed a bit harsh on grandpas (most of whom are surely now not at all racist?) in general.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I've probably misunderstood your original point about grandpas. One of my own grandfathers' first experience of being in a foreign country was as a 16-year old in Belgium in the early part of WWI. He never went back. Not a xenophobe, but I'm not confident he would have voted against Brexit, and I wouldn't be that quick to condemn him for it.

As you suggest, people who took part in WWI and WWII have died out now. I didn't understand why you were mentioning grandpas in the context of racism. Seemed a bit harsh on grandpas (most of whom are surely now not at all racist?) in general.

I think older folk tend to still hang on to some of the assumptions around at the time subconsciously. I think as well, older people quite often fear change, which can be understandable, and that includes fear of culture changing, because once you're 80 odd, you're talking about folk who were born before houses had TVs and stuff, and the rate of change has been pretty mental lately. I think this is largely what the right weaponise - but I agree that in these cases, it's not fair to blame the old people, unless you want to paint a very large swathe of a generation with the same brush as you're painting Tommy Robinson or whoever.

[Hibrandenburg]

That was my wife's feelings about this as well. Let them show what they can... or more likely cannot... do and people will soon see they're just a sham and have no real answers.


Interestingly, the AFD were much more successful in the rural areas in Sachsen, while the urban areas were mostly CDU, or even Greens.

Would be interesting to find out why that was the case.

Hmmh, it's almost as if people are afraid of that what they don't know. I believe the word for that is xenophobia and people who are xenophobic towards other races and cultures are racists. If we're going to have a grown up discussion about the rise of the far right, then we have to accept that those who vote for them are either racist or accept racism.

[Hibrandenburg]

I've probably misunderstood your original point about grandpas. One of my own grandfathers' first experience of being in a foreign country was as a 16-year old in Belgium in the early part of WWI. He never went back. Not a xenophobe, but I'm not confident he would have voted against Brexit, and I wouldn't be that quick to condemn him for it.

As you suggest, people who took part in WWI and WWII have died out now. I didn't understand why you were mentioning grandpas in the context of racism. Seemed a bit harsh on grandpas (most of whom are surely now not at all racist?) in general.

Understood, I could easily have put another example at the lower end of the racist spectrum. I guess I'm talking about people who are unconsciously racist, they are not necessarily bad people, but hold racist beliefs that our society past and present has conditioned them to accept as fact.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Hmmh, it's almost as if people are afraid of that what they don't know. I believe the word for that is xenophobia and people who are xenophobic towards other races and cultures are racists. If we're going to have a grown up discussion about the rise of the far right, then we have to accept that those who vote for them are either racist or accept racism.

the problem with that is that it immediately removes such people from the discussion, many of whom are genuinely acting in good faith, just based on awful information and crap circumstances. there's lots of people who have no problem being around foreigners who are still voting for far-right parties, because they genuinely, on an intellectual level, believe that immigration is what is causing their lives to be rubbish. they're wrong, but they're not necessarily racist.

If the discussion you want to have is simply "what are we going to do with these deplorable?!", then batter on - I just think that's been shown not to work.

EDIT: I'm referring to the voters, not the parties - they are absolutely deplorable, and we do need to do something about them. I just think blaming the voters is treating the symptom and not the cause.

[Keith_M]

That’s the same everywhere isn’t it?
City people don’t really fear immigration and rural people do?
I always assume that the people who live beside migrants in the cities are used to it and rural people are afraid of the unknown and different. They think they don’t like what the cities have become.


Hmmh, it's almost as if people are afraid of that what they don't know. I believe the word for that is xenophobia and people who are xenophobic towards other races and cultures are racists. If we're going to have a grown up discussion about the rise of the far right, then we have to accept that those who vote for them are either racist or accept racism.


Yeah, I think you both have a point.

I know people in the rural areas around Dresden and despair at some of the stuff they've come out with. The bizarre thing being that they live in areas that are almost exclusively White German.

Dresden city centre on the other hand... both north and south... voted massively for the Greens.

[Hibrandenburg]

the problem with that is that it immediately removes such people from the discussion, many of whom are genuinely acting in good faith, just based on awful information and crap circumstances. there's lots of people who have no problem being around foreigners who are still voting for far-right parties, because they genuinely, on an intellectual level, believe that immigration is what is causing their lives to be rubbish. they're wrong, but they're not necessarily racist.

If the discussion you want to have is simply "what are we going to do with these deplorable?!", then batter on - I just think that's been shown not to work.

EDIT: I'm referring to the voters, not the parties - they are absolutely deplorable, and we do need to do something about them. I just think blaming the voters is treating the symptom and not the cause.

We need to get back to a place where racism is a bad thing. Since the onset of Brexit it has become socially acceptable to express racist views because the politicians expressing those views vehemently deny they are racist and that is mirrored by those who vote for them.

Before that can happen we need to reestablish what racism and what racist behaviour is. If people don't know they're racist or are supporting it via the ballot box, then any grownup discussion about immigration is impossible.

[Ozyhibby]

We need to get back to a place where racism is a bad thing. Since the onset of Brexit it has become socially acceptable to express racist views because the politicians expressing those views vehemently deny they are racist and that is mirrored by those who vote for them.

Before that can happen we need to reestablish what racism and what racist behaviour is. If people don't know they're racist or are supporting it via the ballot box, then any grownup discussion about immigration is impossible.

And people on the left also have to acknowledge that immigration without an increased supply of housing and other resources comes at a cost.
There needs to be some growing up on both sides.


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[AgentDaleCooper]

And people on the left also have to acknowledge that immigration without an increased supply of housing and other resources comes at a cost.
There needs to be some growing up on both sides.


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and people in the centre have to acknowledge that although necessary, increasing the supply of housing is actually pretty devastating to the environment. meanwhile, England and Wales (not sure about Scotland) have over 500,000 second homes lying empty most of the year.

there needs to be some growing up - and by this I mean an acknowledgement of a misplaced sense of entitlement and moral authority - by the centre as well.

[Stairway 2 7]

and people in the centre have to acknowledge that although necessary, increasing the supply of housing is actually pretty devastating to the environment. meanwhile, England and Wales (not sure about Scotland) have over 500,000 second homes lying empty most of the year.

there needs to be some growing up - and by this I mean an acknowledgement of a misplaced sense of entitlement and moral authority - by the centre as well.

Better on the housing thread as a lot of old ground but the uk has the smallest number of available homes not used as first homes in the oecd at 2% spare. The western European average is 8%, we'd need 3 million homes built to match Germany.

There is 150,000 homeless children in the uk up 15% in a year, 320,000 homeless households in the UK.

Oz is spot on immigration was absolutely massive in the uk we had 2,100,000 net migration in 3 years. I'm all for immigration they are net contributors. You need to use that money to increase households at the same rate, increase doctors, hospitals schools ect. If you don't you'll have increased homelessness and longer waiting lists.

Problem is that's exactly what happened under the last government, the money got siphoned away.

[Jamesie]

I believe there are both simple and complicated reasons people vote for far right parties. There's a wide spectrum of racists out there, from your frothing at the mouth nazi to to grandpa who just doesn't feel comfortable amongst foreigners. There's a hell of a lot of votes to be had from that demographic if you can push the right buttons.

According to data published by the pollsters Infratest Dimap, 38 per cent of those aged between 18 and 24 voted for the AfD in Thuringia on Sunday. In neighbouring Saxony, 31 per cent did the same. In both states, the party was able to increase its vote share among this age group by at least 11 per cent to become the most popular party with young Germans. Approximately one in three Germans under the age of 34 voted for the AfD.

So it isn’t really fair to just point to “grandpa”.

[AgentDaleCooper]

According to data published by the pollsters Infratest Dimap, 38 per cent of those aged between 18 and 24 voted for the AfD in Thuringia on Sunday. In neighbouring Saxony, 31 per cent did the same. In both states, the party was able to increase its vote share among this age group by at least 11 per cent to become the most popular party with young Germans. Approximately one in three Germans under the age of 34 voted for the AfD.

So it isn’t really fair to just point to “grandpa”.

very true - social media has a lot to answer for, and tbh the moralistic approach maybe is more appropriate towards this demographic in some circumstances, even if it might fall on deaf ears. **** knows. nowt will change until the policies of governments change though, in terms of reducing poverty and providing housing (including building new houses - it's just that the environmental implications, as always, get thrown out of the window, or viewed in a very short term and narrow way.

[Keith_M]

According to data published by the pollsters Infratest Dimap, 38 per cent of those aged between 18 and 24 voted for the AfD in Thuringia on Sunday. In neighbouring Saxony, 31 per cent did the same. In both states, the party was able to increase its vote share among this age group by at least 11 per cent to become the most popular party with young Germans. Approximately one in three Germans under the age of 34 voted for the AfD.

So it isn’t really fair to just point to “grandpa”.


Thanks for that, it provides a bit of balance on the assumptions about certain demographics

👍

[Hibrandenburg]

According to data published by the pollsters Infratest Dimap, 38 per cent of those aged between 18 and 24 voted for the AfD in Thuringia on Sunday. In neighbouring Saxony, 31 per cent did the same. In both states, the party was able to increase its vote share among this age group by at least 11 per cent to become the most popular party with young Germans. Approximately one in three Germans under the age of 34 voted for the AfD.

So it isn’t really fair to just point to “grandpa”.

I wasn't pointing at granpa, granpa was being used as the bottom end of a spectrum of those who might vote for far right parties.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thanks for that, it provides a bit of balance on the assumptions about certain demographics

👍

The AfD vote was broken down pretty much straight after the election and the older generation 60+ voted in smaller numbers than other generations. Pretty much why I used the word granpa to cover the bottom end of a spectrum on how nasty you're average right winger is.

[Keith_M]

The AfD vote was broken down pretty much straight after the election and the older generation 60+ voted in smaller numbers than other generations. Pretty much why I used the word granpa to cover the bottom end of a spectrum on how nasty you're average right winger is.

No, that's fair. It's more the assumption among some people that the young are so much more elightened than the older generation, which isn't always the case.

[Stairway 2 7]

According to data published by the pollsters Infratest Dimap, 38 per cent of those aged between 18 and 24 voted for the AfD in Thuringia on Sunday. In neighbouring Saxony, 31 per cent did the same. In both states, the party was able to increase its vote share among this age group by at least 11 per cent to become the most popular party with young Germans. Approximately one in three Germans under the age of 34 voted for the AfD.

So it isn’t really fair to just point to “grandpa”.

Complete opposite of UK and Scotland bizarrely. Labour got in from a massive percentage of under 50s. Reform got the vast majority of their votes from the over 50s. This did them OK as in the uk percentage of who votes is much higher the older you get

Greens and Lib dems got double the votes reform got in the under 30s and Labour 7 times more. In 65 and older it was tories out in front and Labour and reform tied for 2nd

[Hibrandenburg]

Complete opposite of UK and Scotland bizarrely. Labour got in from a massive percentage of under 50s. Reform got the vast majority of their votes from the over 50s. This did them OK as in the uk percentage of who votes is much higher the older you get

Greens and Lib dems got double the votes reform got in the under 30s and Labour 7 times more. In 65 and older it was tories out in front and Labour and reform tied for 2nd

Let's not forget that this is only a region of Germany, a region that has only relatively recently thrown off the shackles of consecutive totalitarian regimes covering a period of over 50 years.

[Keith_M]

Let's not forget that this is only a region of Germany, a region that has only relatively recently thrown off the shackles of consecutive totalitarian regimes covering a period of over 50 years.


That explains a lot about my Missus' iron rule at home. She was obviously well schooled


Ossi Women, what are they like...


:rolleyes:

[Stairway 2 7]

Let's not forget that this is only a region of Germany, a region that has only relatively recently thrown off the shackles of consecutive totalitarian regimes covering a period of over 50 years.

It's defence not an example of Germany as a whole they won't do nearly as well in the federal election. SDP always do poor in the two regions and it's regions that ADF expected to do well. No one will work with them in the parliament anyway regardless of how they do in the general elections.

[Stairway 2 7]

Germany considering sending migrants to Rwanda. After last week's stabbings they brought in some new rules like knife being crime a reason for deportation and asylum seekers won't get benefits if they enter Germany from a safe country that they could have got asylum in



https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/germany-considers-sending-migrants-to-rwanda-after-uk-ditches-same-idea-13210359

Germany considers sending migrants to Rwanda after UK ditches same idea

Germany's migration minister says he would use the plan to deter people from crossing the EU's eastern borders, which is "about 10,000 a year".

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/21st-century-demagogues-history-patterns

Worth a read.


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[Bristolhibby]

I think older folk tend to still hang on to some of the assumptions around at the time subconsciously. I think as well, older people quite often fear change, which can be understandable, and that includes fear of culture changing, because once you're 80 odd, you're talking about folk who were born before houses had TVs and stuff, and the rate of change has been pretty mental lately. I think this is largely what the right weaponise - but I agree that in these cases, it's not fair to blame the old people, unless you want to paint a very large swathe of a generation with the same brush as you're painting Tommy Robinson or whoever.

Agreed, especially as that was the last generation who actually went to war and spilt blood to defeat German and Italian Fascism and Japanese Militarism.

[Kato]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/06/21st-century-demagogues-history-patterns

Worth a read.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt is worth a read. The book he's referring to seems to be so too.

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[Pretty Boy]

Agreed, especially as that was the last generation who actually went to war and spilt blood to defeat German and Italian Fascism and Japanese Militarism.

What war was that? The Falklands?

My Grandad is 91 and was 6 when WWII started and 12 when it finished. The idea the older generation of today are Vera Lynn singing D Day veterans is about 20-25 years out of date. There are a handful of people left who saw the front lines in WWII and that is almost taking literally rather than figuratively.

It seems particularly British thing that there is this reflected glory around a brutal war for a generation who were born well after it ended. It seems almost an overriding part of the British psyche, all the nostalgia propaganda from the far right harks back to a period 10-15 years either side of that war. I suppose it's understandable, the victories in both the great war and WWII were so pyrrhic for the UK in terms of economic and political cost that it's the last time we were of any real consequence on the world stage.

[greenlex]

What war was that? The Falklands?

My Grandad is 91 and was 6 when WWII started and 12 when it finished. The idea the older generation of today are Vera Lynn singing D Day veterans is about 20-25 years out of date. There are a handful of people left who saw the front lines in WWII and that is almost taking literally rather than figuratively.

It seems particularly British thing that there is this reflected glory around a brutal war for a generation who were born well after it ended. It seems almost an overriding part of the British psyche, all the nostalgia propaganda from the far right harks back to a period 10-15 years either side of that war. I suppose it's understandable, the victories in both the great war and WWII were so pyrrhic for the UK in terms of economic and political cost that it's the last time we were of any real consequence on the world stage.

Agree with most of that PB but my generations parents were front and Centre of the fight against the Nazis. It affected them greatly and in my dad’s case physically. It’s natural for me and my generation to feel an attachment to that so although I personally obviously didn’t see front line action I do feel it’s close to my heart. I hate War and everything associated with it. I’m a Scottish Patriot but very anti flag waving.

[s.a.m]

What war was that? The Falklands?

My Grandad is 91 and was 6 when WWII started and 12 when it finished. The idea the older generation of today are Vera Lynn singing D Day veterans is about 20-25 years out of date. There are a handful of people left who saw the front lines in WWII and that is almost taking literally rather than figuratively.

It seems particularly British thing that there is this reflected glory around a brutal war for a generation who were born well after it ended. It seems almost an overriding part of the British psyche, all the nostalgia propaganda from the far right harks back to a period 10-15 years either side of that war. I suppose it's understandable, the victories in both the great war and WWII were so pyrrhic for the UK in terms of economic and political cost that it's the last time we were of any real consequence on the world stage.

You're absolutely right that there are few left who fought, and it's an important point: there aren't many left who are entitled to talk about what "we" did. I think, though, that the cultural and social effects went on longer than you suggest. There are a couple of living generations who grew up with the war, either living through it or its cultural aftermath. I'll be 57 in a couple of weeks, and my grandfather fought in both wars, my parents were children who lost relatives during WW2, and I went to primary school at at time when little boys were still fighting the Jerries at playtime and at the weekend (when they weren't cowboys fighting the Indians, which is a whole other thing...), and war films framed around British heroism were regularly on TV. So, although people my age or my parents' age can't claim to have fought, we did to varying degrees grow up with the war, which was only slowly disappearing in the rear-view mirror.

A few years back, I saw Anthony Beevor at the Book Festival talking about his book about Arnhem. He talked about the operation's presence in the public psyche - and the public view of WW2 in general being partly shaped by film. In the case of Arnhem, the film, 'A Bridge Too Far' which (according to him - I haven't seen it since I was a child) portrays the British loss as an unfortunate serious of accidents and 'if onlys', when in fact he believes it should be remembered as a hubristic, catastrophic mess from conception through strategy and execution. The loss emboldened a German military and command who were sinking at the time and, he believes, it delayed the end of the war which meant many more lives were lost than need be, on top of the lives lost or ruined in the actual operation. But perhaps, wrong as this story - and others like it - might be, it's not irrational. Maybe because of the loss of status you talk about, or the need to reframe their losses and trauma in a way that brought comfort and reassurance, or the need for people to remind themselves that there were genuinely heroic deeds which weren't in vain, grown-ups were still revisiting WW2 regularly when I was young, and children at the time were hearing and exploring those stories.

I have older relatives who still remember - and follow! - war-effort guidance, and hark back to the propaganda posters. So, basically, I agree with you - but I think you might be underestimating the reach of the impact of the war, time-wise. There are still a lot of people who have vicarious experience of WW2 , or a fictionalised narrative of it - not that that's any excuse, but it hasn't come from nowhere. Young thugs and racists claiming some kind of superiority because of the war is stupid and offensive. And they need telt.

[Pretty Boy]

You're absolutely right that there are few left who fought, and it's an important point: there aren't many left who are entitled to talk about what "we" did. I think, though, that the cultural and social effects went on longer than you suggest. There are a couple of living generations who grew up with the war, either living through it or its cultural aftermath. I'll be 57 in a couple of weeks, and my grandfather fought in both wars, my parents were children who lost relatives during WW2, and I went to primary school at at time when little boys were still fighting the Jerries at playtime and at the weekend (when they weren't cowboys fighting the Indians, which is a whole other thing...), and war films framed around British heroism were regularly on TV. So, although people my age or my parents' age can't claim to have fought, we did to varying degrees grow up with the war, which was only slowly disappearing in the rear-view mirror.

A few years back, I saw Anthony Beevor at the Book Festival talking about his book about Arnhem. He talked about the operation's presence in the public psyche - and the public view of WW2 in general being partly shaped by film. In the case of Arnhem, the film, 'A Bridge Too Far' which (according to him - I haven't seen it since I was a child) portrays the British loss as an unfortunate serious of accidents and 'if onlys', when in fact he believes it should be remembered as a hubristic, catastrophic mess from conception through strategy and execution. The loss emboldened a German military and command who were sinking at the time and, he believes, it delayed the end of the war which meant many more lives were lost than need be, on top of the lives lost or ruined in the actual operation. But perhaps, wrong as this story - and others like it - might be, it's not irrational. Maybe because of the loss of status you talk about, or the need to reframe their losses and trauma in a way that brought comfort and reassurance, or the need for people to remind themselves that there were genuinely heroic deeds which weren't in vain, grown-ups were still revisiting WW2 regularly when I was young, and children at the time were hearing and exploring those stories.

I have older relatives who still remember - and follow! - war-effort guidance, and hark back to the propaganda posters. So, basically, I agree with you - but I think you might be underestimating the reach of the impact of the war, time-wise. There are still a lot of people who have vicarious experience of WW2 , or a fictionalised narrative of it - not that that's any excuse, but it hasn't come from nowhere. Young thugs and racists claiming some kind of superiority because of the war is stupid and offensive. And they need telt.

I agree with you and I did acknowledge that the war dominated and indeed for many continues to dominate the British national psyche. If anything I would argue the horror seems to be being slowly forgotten and replaced with a dangerous romanticism but that is another debate altogether. I absolutely take on board the points made by you and Greenlex above.

My point was more in relation to the idea that we should avoid generalisations against a generation who 'spilled blood' against fascism. It's just no longer really the case and shame on those from younger generations spanning 20s to 80s who heard heard and perhaps saw the impact of that battle for Europe on their own parents and grandparents and are still drawn to Reform and their ilk.

I have said on the other thread about fascism that I can understand why some of the poorest in our society are conned by the hateful rhetoric. Many of the ringleaders seem to be the same types who want what I described as the reflected glory of the effort of actual heroes whilst being born 10, 20 or 30 years after the conflict ended.

[Hibrandenburg]

You're absolutely right that there are few left who fought, and it's an important point: there aren't many left who are entitled to talk about what "we" did. I think, though, that the cultural and social effects went on longer than you suggest. There are a couple of living generations who grew up with the war, either living through it or its cultural aftermath. I'll be 57 in a couple of weeks, and my grandfather fought in both wars, my parents were children who lost relatives during WW2, and I went to primary school at at time when little boys were still fighting the Jerries at playtime and at the weekend (when they weren't cowboys fighting the Indians, which is a whole other thing...), and war films framed around British heroism were regularly on TV. So, although people my age or my parents' age can't claim to have fought, we did to varying degrees grow up with the war, which was only slowly disappearing in the rear-view mirror.

A few years back, I saw Anthony Beevor at the Book Festival talking about his book about Arnhem. He talked about the operation's presence in the public psyche - and the public view of WW2 in general being partly shaped by film. In the case of Arnhem, the film, 'A Bridge Too Far' which (according to him - I haven't seen it since I was a child) portrays the British loss as an unfortunate serious of accidents and 'if onlys', when in fact he believes it should be remembered as a hubristic, catastrophic mess from conception through strategy and execution. The loss emboldened a German military and command who were sinking at the time and, he believes, it delayed the end of the war which meant many more lives were lost than need be, on top of the lives lost or ruined in the actual operation. But perhaps, wrong as this story - and others like it - might be, it's not irrational. Maybe because of the loss of status you talk about, or the need to reframe their losses and trauma in a way that brought comfort and reassurance, or the need for people to remind themselves that there were genuinely heroic deeds which weren't in vain, grown-ups were still revisiting WW2 regularly when I was young, and children at the time were hearing and exploring those stories.

I have older relatives who still remember - and follow! - war-effort hark back to the propaganda posters. So, basically, I agree with you - but I think you might be underestimating the reach of the impact of the war, time-wise. There are still a lot of people who have vicarious experience of WW2 , or a fictionalised narrative of it - not that that's any excuse, but it hasn't come from nowhere. Young thugs and racists claiming some kind of superiority because of the war is stupid and offensive. And they need telt.

I've no problem in understanding why survivors of WW2 and even their offspring born after, had an unhealthy mistrust against the Germans. I'm hitting 60 next year and grew up under the generations that fought in and were born into the immediate aftermath of WW2 and some of them even WW1. Politics and education was still geared up to see the Germans as our natural enemy and to an extent still is.

But the problem with fascism that we are seeing in the UK today isn't after quakes of WW2, it's a deep rooted sense that being British makes you somehow superior to Johnny Foreigner. Unlike the Germans, Britain is still convinced that it was its God given right to invade and occupy large swathes of the world and impose our rule over them. Rather than admit we committed horrible atrocities in our pursuit of power, we still sell the fairytale of what we gave to the world. It's then no wonder that the UK is fertile ground for fascism to flourish, even if up until now it has been mainly passive. It's not only WW2 and the Blitz Spirit that these odious cretins call upon to express their imaginary superiority, but WW1, Waterloo, Trafalgar, Agincourt and the grand old British Empire is proof that Johnny Foreigner is inferior. History will always be written by the victors, but until we really address our past in a truthful manner, then racism amongst the poorly educated will always be a problem here.

[Ozyhibby]

I've no problem in understanding why survivors of WW2 and even their offspring born after, had an unhealthy mistrust against the Germans. I'm hitting 60 next year and grew up under the generations that fought in and were born into the immediate aftermath of WW2 and some of them even WW1. Politics and education was still geared up to see the Germans as our natural enemy and to an extent still is.

But the problem with fascism that we are seeing in the UK today isn't after quakes of WW2, it's a deep rooted sense that being British makes you somehow superior to Johnny Foreigner. Unlike the Germans, Britain is still convinced that it was its God given right to invade and occupy large swathes of the world and impose our rule over them. Rather than admit we committed horrible atrocities in our pursuit of power, we still sell the fairytale of what we gave to the world. It's then no wonder that the UK is fertile ground for fascism to flourish, even if up until now it has been mainly passive. It's not only WW2 and the Blitz Spirit that these odious cretins call upon to express their imaginary superiority, but WW1, Waterloo, Trafalgar, Agincourt and the grand old British Empire is proof that Johnny Foreigner is inferior. History will always be written by the victors, but until we really address our past in a truthful manner, then racism amongst the poorly educated will always be a problem here.

I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah racists sentiment and anti immigration opinions were falling in the uk polling shows for the last 15 years. Recession and poverty breeds anger. **** like Farage and Sunak use immigration to deflect the anger. The best way to defeat this is a booming economy and better living conditions. I'm not optimistic the economy will boom in anyway though.

[Keith_M]

I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.


That's the thing, from my experience of those living in the southern half* of Eastern Germany (Sachsen, Thuringen and Sachsen-Anhalt), they generally have a standard of living that the poorer parts of the UK could only dream of.

I'm not claiming thee aren't genuine problems as unemployment, for instance, is higher than in Western 'Länder' (states), whereas wages are often lower.

It's just that for many (at least the ones I know), it mostly seems to be their perceptions, as opposed to the reality.



* I'm not as familiar with the northern areas, Brandenburg, Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, so couldn't comment on that.

[jamie_1875]

I've no problem in understanding why survivors of WW2 and even their offspring born after, had an unhealthy mistrust against the Germans. I'm hitting 60 next year and grew up under the generations that fought in and were born into the immediate aftermath of WW2 and some of them even WW1. Politics and education was still geared up to see the Germans as our natural enemy and to an extent still is.

But the problem with fascism that we are seeing in the UK today isn't after quakes of WW2, it's a deep rooted sense that being British makes you somehow superior to Johnny Foreigner. Unlike the Germans, Britain is still convinced that it was its God given right to invade and occupy large swathes of the world and impose our rule over them. Rather than admit we committed horrible atrocities in our pursuit of power, we still sell the fairytale of what we gave to the world. It's then no wonder that the UK is fertile ground for fascism to flourish, even if up until now it has been mainly passive. It's not only WW2 and the Blitz Spirit that these odious cretins call upon to express their imaginary superiority, but WW1, Waterloo, Trafalgar, Agincourt and the grand old British Empire is proof that Johnny Foreigner is inferior. History will always be written by the victors, but until we really address our past in a truthful manner, then racism amongst the poorly educated will always be a problem here.

How do the various surveys that show the UK is one of the least racist countries and most tolerant in Europe match up with what you are saying?

One example here:

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/uk-public-among-most-trusting-of-their-neighbours-internationally-and-increasingly-comfortable-living-next-to-historically-marginalised-groups

[Colr]

How do the various surveys that show the UK is one of the least racist countries and most tolerant in Europe match up with what you are saying?

One example here:

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/uk-public-among-most-trusting-of-their-neighbours-internationally-and-increasingly-comfortable-living-next-to-historically-marginalised-groups

My neighbour is German and she ably demonstrates how the German nation was captivated by Nazism.

[Ozyhibby]

How do the various surveys that show the UK is one of the least racist countries and most tolerant in Europe match up with what you are saying?

One example here:

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/uk-public-among-most-trusting-of-their-neighbours-internationally-and-increasingly-comfortable-living-next-to-historically-marginalised-groups

It is. These people are a tiny minority who are making a lot of noise. They were massively outnumbered in Glasgow yesterday.


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[marinello59]

It is. These people are a tiny minority who are making a lot of noise. They were massively outnumbered in Glasgow yesterday.


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They have been massively outnumbered all over the UK. Truth is most of us muddle along pretty well most of the time. Some people are desperate to see the UK has having a problem whilst dismissing or minimising what is happening in other countries.

[Kato]

They have been massively outnumbered all over the UK. Truth is most of us muddle along pretty well most of the time. Some people are desperate to see the UK has having a problem whilst dismissing or minimising what is happening in other countries.

There is no doubt racists are in a minority, but they are loud.

The volume over the last 15-20 years has been amplified by social media and pushed even louder by Putins cash and bots.

The news in the US about the company, Tenet, financed by Putin, paying for right-wing commentators to amplify division makes me wonder why there hasn't been more said in the UK.

Ex British RT employees should be getting dragged over the coals for a start.

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[Hibrandenburg]

I think your attributing too much thinking to these people.
It’s just flat out racism. Their life is crap or they feel it is and they want someone to blame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Someone to blame and someone to feel superior to.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah racists sentiment and anti immigration opinions were falling in the uk polling shows for the last 15 years. Recession and poverty breeds anger. **** like Farage and Sunak use immigration to deflect the anger. The best way to defeat this is a booming economy and better living conditions. I'm not optimistic the economy will boom in anyway though.

Then isn't it strange that many voted to stop free movement and then overwhelmingly voted for a party that overtly played the "immigration is bad" card.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's the thing, from my experience of those living in the southern half* of Eastern Germany (Sachsen, Thuringen and Sachsen-Anhalt), they generally have a standard of living that the poorer parts of the UK could only dream of.

I'm not claiming thee aren't genuine problems as unemployment, for instance, is higher than in Western 'Länder' (states), whereas wages are often lower.

It's just that for many (at least the ones I know), it mostly seems to be their perceptions, as opposed to the reality.



* I'm not as familiar with the northern areas, Brandenburg, Berlin and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, so couldn't comment on that.

Meck-Pomm and Brandenburg are similar to the south east, Berlin which has a high degree of immigration is much more open to other cultures.

The problem is racism based on xenophobia, the fear of that what you don't know.

[Stairway 2 7]

Then isn't it strange that many voted to stop free movement and then overwhelmingly voted for a party that overtly played the "immigration is bad" card.

The difference is the poll that Jamie shared above and the massive European social study that show uk has a more positive opinion on immigrants that most other nations, is they ask the whole public.

Unfortunately in the uk older groups massively outvote younger groups. The tories and reform got their seats from the over 55s, reform especially the over 65s. The polls above ask everybody.

I can see why uk is getting less bigoted as the older groups die off. Over 60s were brought up in a very white British nation 99.8% in 1951, it's now 76% white British and only 60% of under 4 year old. Most UK kids will have people of different colour in their class. Hopefully being brought up with other groups will help them realise how stupid racism is. Looking at the votes of the under 30s in the last election I'm positive in the future, the kids are alright.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/03/most-british-people-hold-positive-view-of-immigration-survey-reveals

[Hibrandenburg]

They have been massively outnumbered all over the UK. Truth is most of us muddle along pretty well most of the time. Some people are desperate to see the UK has having a problem whilst dismissing or minimising what is happening in other countries.

Strange, I felt it was exactly the other way round. If you read the British press then you'd be forgiven for thinking that Germany was on the cusp of welcoming in the 4th Reich. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

The difference is the poll that Jamie shared above and the massive European social study that show uk has a more positive opinion on immigrants that most other nations, is they ask the whole public.

Unfortunately in the uk older groups massively outvote younger groups. The tories and reform got their seats from the over 55s, reform especially the over 65s. The polls above ask everybody.

I can see why uk is getting less bigoted as the older groups die off. Over 60s were brought up in a very white British nation 99.8% in 1951, it's now 76% white British and only 60% of under 4 year old. Most UK kids will have people of different colour in their class. Hopefully being brought up with other groups will help them realise how stupid racism is. Looking at the votes of the under 30s in the last election I'm positive in the future, the kids are alright.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/nov/03/most-british-people-hold-positive-view-of-immigration-survey-reveals

I do appreciate that the vast majority of UK citizens are not racist. However I take such surveys with a huge pinch of salt, the election box is a much better gauge.

[JimBHibees]

I do appreciate that the vast majority of UK citizens are not racist. However I take such surveys with a huge pinch of salt, the election box is a much better gauge.

Definitely a much better gauge. What was that saying about shy tories?

[Stairway 2 7]

I do appreciate that the vast majority of UK citizens are not racist. However I take such surveys with a huge pinch of salt, the election box is a much better gauge.

The election is a good example of the people who vote, usually 60 odd %. Poorer people, younger people and people from ethnic backgrounds vote much less. All these groups are generally much more left wing. 40% of EU migrants and 25% of African migrants aren't registered to vote and usually only 50% of under 25s vote.

I don't know how we get these groups to vote but the UK would be a better place if they did as Reform and the Tories didn't pitifully in these groups.

[Stairway 2 7]

Definitely a much better gauge. What was that saying about shy tories?

It's a good gauge for middle class old people. There's a 30% gap in the richest and poorest voters turn out, a 30% gap between the youngest and oldest and a large gap between ethnicities. I don't think you can say it shows what Britain thinks when it doesn't show well what minorities think.

I read white British is estimated to be under 50% of the population by 2060 so hopefully the fash will control less of the voters in future

[Keith_M]

Meck-Pomm and Brandenburg are similar to the south east, Berlin which has a high degree of immigration is much more open to other cultures.

The problem is racism based on xenophobia, the fear of that what you don't know.


Cheers. Doesn't surprise me, TBH

[nonshinyfinish]

40% of EU migrants and 25% of African migrants aren't registered to vote and usually only 50% of under 25s vote.

I don't know how we get these groups to vote but the UK would be a better place if they did as Reform and the Tories didn't pitifully in these groups.

Presumably those are percentages of the total number of migrants, not percentages of the number with UK citizenship? If you don't have citizenship then you can't vote in general elections, only local elections.

My partner is German and registered to vote in local elections, but I can see why a lot of people wouldn't bother.

[Stairway 2 7]

Presumably those are percentages of the total number of migrants, not percentages of the number with UK citizenship? If you don't have citizenship then you can't vote in general elections, only local elections.

My partner is German and registered to vote in local elections, but I can see why a lot of people wouldn't bother.

It's eligible voters in the general election from each group that votes

https://post.parliament.uk/election-turnout-why-do-some-people-not-vote/

[nonshinyfinish]

It's eligible voters in the general election from each group that votes

https://post.parliament.uk/election-turnout-why-do-some-people-not-vote/

Ah ok, thanks

[Stairway 2 7]

Ah ok, thanks

I can also see why they would feel disenfranchised though, I'm not blaming them it's the parties duty to reach them

[Keith_M]

Strange, I felt it was exactly the other way round. If you read the British press then you'd be forgiven for thinking that Germany was on the cusp of welcoming in the 4th Reich. :greengrin


Yeah, either that or on the brink of financial disaster. It's bizarre how Germany is reported on over here.


I had a brief spell of unemployment in Germany (3 months between jobs) and my 'Dole' money was higher than what my wife gets in her current job in the UK.

Also, If I had to see a doctor, it was so much easier than making an appointment where I live now.


And I was an immigrant. The far-right would be raging about people like me :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Yeah, either that or on the brink of financial disaster. It's bizarre how Germany is reported on over here.


I had a brief spell of unemployment in Germany (3 months between jobs) and my 'Dole' money was higher than what my wife gets in her current job in the UK.

Also, If I had to see a doctor, it was so much easier than making an appointment where I live now.


And I was an immigrant. The far-right would be raging about people like me :greengrin

I started writing a long post but it just read like I'm boasting and I get really self-conscious about that. Suffice to say I just wish that workers in the UK were afforded the same powers and privileges that we get over here. Which makes the surge amongst the far right even more baffling for me. Anyone who wants to make something of themselves has the opportunity to do so. I've had money thrown at me by the German government to train and retrain several times and this kind of support is available to all. I've only ever been out of work once and that was whilst the German government were paying me to retrain as a truck driver a few years back just because I fancied doing that, but there are similar schemes for all jobs where employers are having trouble recruiting and they'll pay people 67% of their last net wage whilst they retrain. And still Germany needs immigration to fill these vacancies. I'm now in a management position and find it incredible that it takes months to fill vacancies because people are reluctant to obtain new qualifications, even when they're offered to them on a silver platter. Baffling.

[Andy Bee]

I started writing a long post but it just read like I'm boasting and I get really self-conscious about that. Suffice to say I just wish that workers in the UK were afforded the same powers and privileges that we get over here. Which makes the surge amongst the far right even more baffling for me. Anyone who wants to make something of themselves has the opportunity to do so. I've had money thrown at me by the German government to train and retrain several times and this kind of support is available to all. I've only ever been out of work once and that was whilst the German government were paying me to retrain as a truck driver a few years back just because I fancied doing that, but there are similar schemes for all jobs where employers are having trouble recruiting and they'll pay people 67% of their last net wage whilst they retrain. And still Germany needs immigration to fill these vacancies. I'm now in a management position and find it incredible that it takes months to fill vacancies because people are reluctant to obtain new qualifications, even when they're offered to them on a silver platter. Baffling.


Absolute sellout, I still can't believe you joined the pointy shoe and suit brigade. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Absolute sellout, I still can't believe you joined the pointy shoe and suit brigade. :greengrin

You and me both :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Cast my vote in the state elections in Brandenburg today. All the opinion polls have been showing a tiny lead for the AfD in the run up. First exit poll now showing an SPD win, albeit small. Hopefully it stays that way.

[Keith_M]

Cast my vote in the state elections in Brandenburg today. All the opinion polls have been showing a tiny lead for the AfD in the run up. First exit poll now showing an SPD win, albeit small. Hopefully it stays that way.


That was very close, less than 2 percentage points difference.

Sadly the AFD has yet again received around 30% of the vote, which backs up your answer to my earlier question about whether it was different to Mitteldeutschland... sadly it's very similar. :-(

[Hibrandenburg]

That was very close, less than 2 percentage points difference.

Sadly the AFD has yet again received around 30% of the vote, which backs up your answer to my earlier question about whether it was different to Mitteldeutschland... sadly it's very similar. :-(

This map of the constituencies surrounding Berlin shows that those areas that border Berlin voted against the AfD, showing that those who have more contact to foreigners are less likely to be taken in by the AfD's "Foreigners Bad" propaganda. The AfD attract xenophobics.

[Stairway 2 7]

This map of the constituencies surrounding Berlin shows that those areas that border Berlin voted against the AfD, showing that those who have more contact to foreigners are less likely to be taken in by the AfD's "Foreigners Bad" propaganda. The AfD attract xenophobics.

Are these elections taken as an indication of the general elections or is it like the by-elections here where protest votes ect can do well.

Hopefully AfD do a lot poorer in the rest of the country as is expected I think?

[Hibrandenburg]

Are these elections taken as an indication of the general elections or is it like the by-elections here where protest votes ect can do well.

Hopefully AfD do a lot poorer in the rest of the country as is expected I think?

It's more like the elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Federal States in Germany have their own parliaments and a certain amount of devolved power.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's more like the elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Federal States in Germany have their own parliaments and a certain amount of devolved power.

Ah thanks. Glad the SDP got it then