Dumbest sub ever

[keep the faith]

Looking really comfortable in a good formation. Pushing for a third and he takes off a CF to bring on a 3rd CH.

Absolute madness and we were all over the place thereafter.

Sorry Dave, but that was pure panic and a huge mistake.

[Hulk1875]

Looking really comfortable in a good formation. Pushing for a third and he takes off a CF to bring on a 3rd CH.

Absolute madness and we were all over the place thereafter.

Sorry Dave, but that was pure panic and a huge mistake.

I’m sure Montgomery down that few times as well

Just invites pressure on

[JimBHibees]

Personally could understand it however it needs our defenders to do the basics unfortunately they fell asleep at the end.

[IanM]

Rookie manager rookie mistake

Quick enough to have a go at the players last week - better take the slack for this

Today was the building block to start turning results into performances and performances into confidence

Feels like a defeat

[Hibiza]

Agree

[Unseen work]

Dumbest sub ever 😂

Jesus Christ

[supermcginn]

Reminds me of Hecky anytime we went in front at home.

[SaulGoodman]

We’ve done it for years and it’s so ****ing frustrating. How many times have we took the lead in a match and then start bringing on defensive subs like we’re playing Man City?

It’s just so boring. You’re basically saying to the other team “That’s us done attacking so feel free to push forward for that equaliser”

Being 2-1 up against Dundee, Kilmarnock, St Mirren and whoever else outwith the OF shouldn’t mean stop attacking and go backs to the wall yet we always do it.

Keep playing the way we were playing and there was more of a chance of us going 3-1 up but we’re so negative that will never happen.

[Jim44]

Rookie manager, legend or not, on a three year contract is baffling.

[MWHIBBIES]

Kwon for Campbell was worse.

[CapitalGreen]

Have we ever looked comfortable playing a back 3 with Rocky? We were shambolic under LJ for the period he tried it.

[Greenio]

Eh?

Its a pretty common move. Managers do it up n down the country every week.

It was down to the players to execute, they didnt.

If were going to pin this on him, then doesvhe also get praise for bringing on campbell n bowie for an assist n goal?

Doubt it eh

[hibee_girl]

Kwon for Campbell was worse.

Kwon had picked up a knock.

[B.H.F.C]

Forget about us ending up deeper or whatever. Just putting Rocky on instantly weakens you.

We can’t defend, just keep the better players on the park.

[GreenCastle]

Watching us have 5 at the back to Dundee when we were on the front foot and looking to score a 3rd.

The 1st header when sub came on the 2 Hibs players nearly collided with each other.

Even the average punter knows that was a shocking coaching decision by Gray / Craig / May / Samson.

[Unseen work]

Eh?

Its a pretty common move. Managers do it up n down the country every week.

It was down to the players to execute, they didnt.

If were going to pin this on him, then doesvhe also get praise for bringing on campbell n bowie for an assist n goal?

Doubt it eh

Yeah in the same, just not having it.

We still had offensive threats on.

The goal came from nothing - O’Hora completely switched off and Murray got in behind.

Nothing to do with 3 at the back

[MWHIBBIES]

Kwon had picked up a knock.

I think your right. Id probably have him on 1 leg, though.

[Coco Bryce]

Eh?

Its a pretty common move. Managers do it up n down the country every week.

It was down to the players to execute, they didnt.

If were going to pin this on him, then doesvhe also get praise for bringing on campbell n bowie for an assist n goal?

Doubt it eh

No. Because Bowie should have been on from the start.

[HarpOnHibee]

I could understand us making a sub like that if we were good at holding onto the ball and seeing the game out. But since we give the ball away so cheaply and invite pressure onto ourselves which we subsequently don't deal with, it would have been a better option just to keep on attacking while the momentum was on our side.

[SaulGoodman]

I think your right. Id probably have him on 1 leg, though.

It’s a bit of a Kwondry isn’t it.

[OstKurve Hibs]

You should change the word sub to club In the post title.

[hhibs]

Looking really comfortable in a good formation. Pushing for a third and he takes off a CF to bring on a 3rd CH.

Absolute madness and we were all over the place thereafter.

Sorry Dave, but that was pure panic and a huge mistake.


Learned from the masters who preceded him.,beyond foolish.

[K-Zazu]

Would it not have been a better idea to take Myko off for Amos? An extra man in midfield?

[nickwhibs]

We’ve done it for years and it’s so ****ing frustrating. How many times have we took the lead in a match and then start bringing on defensive subs like we’re playing Man City?

It’s just so boring. You’re basically saying to the other team “That’s us done attacking so feel free to push forward for that equaliser”

Being 2-1 up against Dundee, Kilmarnock, St Mirren and whoever else outwith the OF shouldn’t mean stop attacking and go backs to the wall yet we always do it.

Keep playing the way we were playing and there was more of a chance of us going 3-1 up but we’re so negative that will never happen.

Yep it just gives momentum back to the other team.

[Lancs Harp]

Just before the substitutions Dundee got a corner and we left 3 men on the half way line forcing Dundee to bring 4 players back to cover. The very next Dundee corner after the substitutions we pulled every single player back inside our own penalty area.

Sorry David the substitutions cost us a couple of points.

[K-Zazu]

Would it not have been a better idea to take Myko off for Amos? An extra man in midfield?

Or even Mckirdy, forgot about him.

[Cabbage-Patch]

Looking really comfortable in a good formation. Pushing for a third and he takes off a CF to bring on a 3rd CH.

Absolute madness and we were all over the place thereafter.

Sorry Dave, but that was pure panic and a huge mistake.

Exactly....you don't change shape if your not under any pressure. That's 100% on Gray. We were pushing for a third and looked quite comfortable. Attack is the best form of defence as the old saying goes. Shocker.

[SeanWilson]

Eh?

Its a pretty common move. Managers do it up n down the country every week.

It was down to the players to execute, they didnt.

If were going to pin this on him, then doesvhe also get praise for bringing on campbell n bowie for an assist n goal?

Doubt it eh

It’s not a mad move to make, if you’ve a team who can sit it out. We absolutely do not have that team.

[Hiber-nation]

We all knew what would happen when he made that sub. Inviting pressure on to ourselves. Our CBs are so poor. It was crazy and I have no idea why he did it.

[Since452]

If it's not broken don't fix it. We were well on top at that point.

[hhibs]

We all knew what would happen when he made that sub. Inviting pressure on to ourselves. Our CBs are so poor. It was crazy and I have no idea why he did it.


I think we all will ,.sooner or later,unfortunately

[CL0762]

I’d understand doing it at 90mins to slow the game down.

But to do it at 83/84 mins when there’s still possibly 10mins ish to play is ridiculous.

[MWHIBBIES]

If it's not broken don't fix it. We were well on top at that point.

We weren't on top when rocky came on. It had started before that.

[Unseen work]

We weren't on top when rocky came on. It had started before that.

Agreed.

They had Curtis main and Simon Murray on, two physical strikers who are a nuisance

Rocky on same a mental decision especially with Myko tiring

[H18 SFR]

Rewind the clock to the day before he was appointed, on here or any social media he was SDG or Sir David Gray.

Now it’s still that for some but for what seems like more it Dave, Gray or on social media in particular, derogatory names.

Point I’m making is the end of the journey is near. It’s as good as over.

[GreenCastle]

Folk with any clue of football understand it was a negative/ defensive sub.

Put another midfielder on or even fresh legs up front.

Players will be thinking same thing in the dressing room after the game. It cost us the points and invited Dundee to move other players further forward.

[givescotlandfreedom]

Frustrating as hell. How many managers has he worked under that have cost us a win in the same manner?
Everyone in the ground knew the script except him.

[JimBHibees]

Rewind the clock to the day before he was appointed, on here or any social media he was SDG or Sir David Gray.

Now it’s still that for some but for what seems like more it Dave, Gray or on social media in particular, derogatory names.

Point I’m making is the end of the journey is near. It’s as good as over.

What?

[The Captain....]

Often seems like managers and coaches think they have to justify their existence thru late subs.

More often than not it changes the momentum and invites pressure on a defence that is ill equipped to see out a game in our case. You need leaders to see out a close game and we don't have them...not even close.


Sent from my SM-S926B using Tapatalk

[KeithTheHibby]

Would it not have been a better idea to take Myko off for Amos? An extra man in midfield?

Exactly. Rediculous decision from our manager.

[JimBHibees]

I’d understand doing it at 90mins to slow the game down.

But to do it at 83/84 mins when there’s still possibly 10mins ish to play is ridiculous.

Not sure it is ridiculous idea being to make us more solid unfortunately you need players to do the basics

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Just before the substitutions Dundee got a corner and we left 3 men on the half way line forcing Dundee to bring 4 players back to cover. The very next Dundee corner after the substitutions we pulled every single player back inside our own penalty area.

Sorry David the substitutions cost us a couple of points.

That was very bizarre to go from one extreme to another within a matter of a minute.

Didn't agree with the sub either. It just let Dundee know we were going to sit in and accept what we had for the rest of the game and handed them the impetus.

If there's one team everyone in the league knows that's going to fold in the last 10 minutes of a game under pressure, it's Hibs.

[TrinityHFC]

It sure it is ridiculous idea being to make us more solid unfortunately you need players to do the basics

At that point I thought we looked solid enough and had a threat going forward. I see what he was trying to do but I had a feeling it was going to disrupt us. We’ve never been great at sitting in.

[tamig]

Looking really comfortable in a good formation. Pushing for a third and he takes off a CF to bring on a 3rd CH.

Absolute madness and we were all over the place thereafter.

Sorry Dave, but that was pure panic and a huge mistake.

Agreed. Crazy decision and I couldn’t believe the sub when it happened. And it had an element of inevitability about it.

[Donegal Hibby]

Personally could understand it however it needs our defenders to do the basics unfortunately they fell asleep at the end.

Myko was knackered and with them having Main on I thought Rocky coming on wasn’t a bad idea . As you say we unfortunately just fell asleep at the end .

[CL0762]

It sure it is ridiculous idea being to make us more solid unfortunately you need players to do the basics

With a couple minutes left, aye.

Not at 83 mins with unannounced injury time to play.

[BILLYHIBS]

Looked a panic Monty sub

We now know who was responsible for the eight 2-2 draws last season

[wookie70]

Just before the substitutions Dundee got a corner and we left 3 men on the half way line forcing Dundee to bring 4 players back to cover. The very next Dundee corner after the substitutions we pulled every single player back inside our own penalty area.

Sorry David the substitutions cost us a couple of points.

That first corner we left a man completely free at the back post. )7 Hibs and 5 Dundee in the box)It ended up with Newell on two and the ball hitting his arm which was in front of his body. Subs or not it appeared the players were just standing where they fancied at corners

[Carheenlea]

Looked a panic Monty sub

We now know who was responsible for the eight 2-2 draws last season

And there was no real sense of panic at that time in a game edging towards a winning outcome.

A schoolboy howler from the manager disrupting the defensive unit so late on while weakening our attacking movements when we looked more likely to score the next - he must be feeling regretful he did so now.

[H18 SFR]

And there was no real sense of panic at that time in a game edging towards a winning outcome.

A schoolboy howler from the manager disrupting the defensive unit so late on while weakening our attacking movements when we looked more likely to score the next - he must be feeling regretful he did so now.

Doesn’t sound like it


https://x.com/p_mcpartlin/status/1827398351127482756?s=48

[john rossi]

Soon as I saw Rocky come on I said it’s a 2-2 draw in fact Dundee could have scored a winning 3 goal as the whole defence was all over the place. David gray handed initiative back to Dundee. Neither centre backs are good enough as is the goalie.

[john rossi]

Soon as I saw Rocky come on I said it’s a 2-2 draw in fact Dundee could have scored a winning 3 goal as the whole defence was all over the place. David gray handed initiative back to Dundee. Neither centre backs are good enough as is the goalie.

[Since452]

Appoint a rookie manager, win rookie prizes. I'm sick to death of the "he'll learn" chat. Excuses afforded to Montgomery, Maloney and now Gray. Would love us to just appoint someone who didn't need to "learn" how to see a bloody stick on 3 points situation out. If this season is about SDG learning then we'll be lucky to be in the league next season.

[McD]

Doesn’t sound like it


https://x.com/p_mcpartlin/status/1827398351127482756?s=48



Surely if you want to create pressure on the ball, putting on another midfielder would be more likely to let you do that rather than another centre half, putting the new man about as far from the ball as possible, and taking away a man further up the pitch where they can actually pressure the ball?


An extra centre half is about containing and keeping a team in front of you, not pressuring the ball. You’re almost guaranteed to drop deeper by doing that, inviting pressure, not pressuring :confused:

[jeffers]

Surely if you want to create pressure on the ball, putting on another midfielder would be more likely to let you do that rather than another centre half, putting the new man about as far from the ball as possible, and taking away a man further up the pitch where they can actually pressure the ball?


An extra centre half is about containing and keeping a team in front of you, not pressuring the ball. You’re almost guaranteed to drop deeper by doing that, inviting pressure, not pressuring :confused:

I thought what he said there was a bit contradictory. If he’d said we brought on Rocky to deal with Murray and Main and left it at that it would have made sense.

[McD]

I thought what he said there was a bit contradictory. If he’d said we brought on Rocky to deal with Murray and Main and left it at that it would have made sense.



Yeah agree

[H18 SFR]

I thought what he said there was a bit contradictory. If he’d said we brought on Rocky to deal with Murray and Main and left it at that it would have made sense.

I’m thinking Ben Kensall with have an email from Tim Bezbatchenko when they hear that pish (if they genuinely are even interested).

Dear Ben, ready to chat when you are…

[Keepthefaith]

Appoint a rookie manager, win rookie prizes. I'm sick to death of the "he'll learn" chat. Excuses afforded to Montgomery, Maloney and now Gray. Would love us to just appoint someone who didn't need to "learn" how to see a bloody stick on 3 points situation out. If this season is about SDG learning then we'll be lucky to be in the league next season.

this isn't really fair though is it? whilst I agree with the posters that we should have gone for a 3rd as we were playing well, there would equally have been an outcry on here had we conceded an equaliser without making a defensive sub - something along the lines of it being naive to not see how tired big Myk was etc etc.

decision making as a manager isn't always about experience - look at what Kieran McKenna did in his first job at Ipswich, or Arteta in his first year at Arsenal? look at how badly other experienced managers have done. Johnson was experienced and relatively successful. Actually, look at Docherty for Dundee - he didnt have any more managerial experience than Gary when he was appointed at Dundee?

its not totally down to Gray that Rocky and Ek go to head the same ball, it's not down to him either that Ohora switches off to such a degree that he completely doesn't see Murray. the defence are still gelling - it's not an excuse but a fact and sometimes they do need time to develop that understanding. are you really saying that you can't see positives from today, from some of the decisions that Gary did make? for me, I think his 3 subs worked well - lets give him credit for that and should have won us the game.

we'll know an awful lot more about Gary after the transfer window has shut and the decisions he continues to make regarding the team he puts out. for now I think he needs to be given a bit of slack - there were some positive signs today despite how doom and gloom we're all feeling about the draw.

[McD]

this isn't really fair though is it? whilst I agree with the posters that we should have gone for a 3rd as we were playing well, there would equally have been an outcry on here had we conceded an equaliser without making a defensive sub - something along the lines of it being naive to not see how tired big Myk was etc etc.

decision making as a manager isn't always about experience - look at what Kieran McKenna did in his first job at Ipswich, or Arteta in his first year at Arsenal? look at how badly other experienced managers have done. Johnson was experienced and relatively successful. Actually, look at Docherty for Dundee - he didnt have any more managerial experience than Gary when he was appointed at Dundee?

its not totally down to Gray that Rocky and Ek go to head the same ball, it's not down to him either that Ohora switches off to such a degree that he completely doesn't see Murray. the defence are still gelling - it's not an excuse but a fact and sometimes they do need time to develop that understanding. are you really saying that you can't see positives from today, from some of the decisions that Gary did make? for me, I think his 3 subs worked well - lets give him credit for that and should have won us the game.

we'll know an awful lot more about Gary after the transfer window has shut and the decisions he continues to make regarding the team he puts out. for now I think he needs to be given a bit of slack - there were some positive signs today despite how doom and gloom we're all feeling about the draw.



Fair points. Whilst I disagree with the choice of sub/formation change, I think Gray is within his rights to expect a team with some pretty experienced players in it to see out the match (even with the change he made)

[cubehindthegoal]

this isn't really fair though is it? whilst I agree with the posters that we should have gone for a 3rd as we were playing well, there would equally have been an outcry on here had we conceded an equaliser without making a defensive sub - something along the lines of it being naive to not see how tired big Myk was etc etc.

decision making as a manager isn't always about experience - look at what Kieran McKenna did in his first job at Ipswich, or Arteta in his first year at Arsenal? look at how badly other experienced managers have done. Johnson was experienced and relatively successful. Actually, look at Docherty for Dundee - he didnt have any more managerial experience than Gary when he was appointed at Dundee?

its not totally down to Gray that Rocky and Ek go to head the same ball, it's not down to him either that Ohora switches off to such a degree that he completely doesn't see Murray. the defence are still gelling - it's not an excuse but a fact and sometimes they do need time to develop that understanding. are you really saying that you can't see positives from today, from some of the decisions that Gary did make? for me, I think his 3 subs worked well - lets give him credit for that and should have won us the game.

we'll know an awful lot more about Gary after the transfer window has shut and the decisions he continues to make regarding the team he puts out. for now I think he needs to be given a bit of slack - there were some positive signs today despite how doom and gloom we're all feeling about the draw.

A refreshing and positively realistic post .. I am sitting back here without any personal knowledge of the match today .. and see - hopefully constructively - a 2-2 with a team above us, who qualified for Europe and had a good start this season, after a difficult start ourselves, who possess a player we covet with a manager who has a bit more experience of being so than ours to date …

[B.H.F.C]

Fair points. Whilst I disagree with the choice of sub/formation change, I think Gray is within his rights to expect a team with some pretty experienced players in it to see out the match (even with the change he made)

He’s seen a number of those experienced players fail to do it time and time again though. I hoped we’d see it out but wasn’t surprised in the slightest we didn’t. We’re just so poor defensively, not just in the back four either.

[H18 SFR]

A refreshing and positively realistic post .. I am sitting back here without any personal knowledge of the match today .. and see - hopefully constructively - a 2-2 with a team above us, who qualified for Europe and had a good start this season, after a difficult start ourselves, who possess a player we covet with a manager who has a bit more experience of being so than ours to date …

St Johnstone next at Easter Road. Better start to the season than us. Another team above us. A manager who has a lot more experience than ours to date. We good for a point? Would a point be ‘another’ good result? Is that where we are at?

[JimBHibees]

With a couple minutes left, aye.

Not at 83 mins with unannounced injury time to play.

Should still be able to defend properly for ten minutes with three centre backs

[JimBHibees]

this isn't really fair though is it? whilst I agree with the posters that we should have gone for a 3rd as we were playing well, there would equally have been an outcry on here had we conceded an equaliser without making a defensive sub - something along the lines of it being naive to not see how tired big Myk was etc etc.

decision making as a manager isn't always about experience - look at what Kieran McKenna did in his first job at Ipswich, or Arteta in his first year at Arsenal? look at how badly other experienced managers have done. Johnson was experienced and relatively successful. Actually, look at Docherty for Dundee - he didnt have any more managerial experience than Gary when he was appointed at Dundee?

its not totally down to Gray that Rocky and Ek go to head the same ball, it's not down to him either that Ohora switches off to such a degree that he completely doesn't see Murray. the defence are still gelling - it's not an excuse but a fact and sometimes they do need time to develop that understanding. are you really saying that you can't see positives from today, from some of the decisions that Gary did make? for me, I think his 3 subs worked well - lets give him credit for that and should have won us the game.

we'll know an awful lot more about Gary after the transfer window has shut and the decisions he continues to make regarding the team he puts out. for now I think he needs to be given a bit of slack - there were some positive signs today despite how doom and gloom we're all feeling about the draw.

Tend to agree with that. First half wasn’t great but thought we were pretty good second half.

[TrinityHFC]

Tend to agree with that. First half wasn’t great but thought we were pretty good second half.

Yeah. We will get better too. Disappointing so far of course.

[Alfred E Newman]

A refreshing and positively realistic post .. I am sitting back here without any personal knowledge of the match today .. and see - hopefully constructively - a 2-2 with a team above us, who qualified for Europe and had a good start this season, after a difficult start ourselves, who possess a player we covet with a manager who has a bit more experience of being so than ours to date …

They didn’t qualify for Europe. They pipped us for 6th spot thanks to us shooting ourselves in the foot at Motherwell. Their first season back in the top league after several seasons in the Championship as well.
No way should we be patting ourselves on the back after throwing away 2 home points late in the game.

[Trinity Hibee]

They didn’t qualify for Europe. They pipped us for 6th spot thanks to us shooting ourselves in the foot at Motherwell. Their first season back in the top league after several seasons in the Championship as well.
No way should we be patting ourselves on the back after throwing away 2 home points late in the game.

Agreed. Not directed at the poster you quoted but how has it come to this that we are quite happy with giving up a 2-1 lead at home to Dundee in the final minutes of the game? There are excuses after excuses being rolled out every week. Standards have slipped so far now that making top 6 would be like making Europe

[McD]

He’s seen a number of those experienced players fail to do it time and time again though. I hoped we’d see it out but wasn’t surprised in the slightest we didn’t. We’re just so poor defensively, not just in the back four either.



Oh I agree mate, there’s very few players in the squad I wouldn’t be unhappy to see out the door, this is a Hibs squad that I feel so little affinity to.


I was more meaning that gray *should* have been able to rely on experienced players to be professional and see it out. That he can’t rely on them, and that they’ve repeatedly shown they can’t be relied on, is a sad indictment on them and the club

[andrew_dundee]

Every manager makes mistakes, but a new and relatively untested manager is more likely to make them. I didn't support SDG being appointed, but we all knew when he was there would obviously be a bit more trial and error than there would with a more experienced hand.

I hope he comes good, and part of that process will be hoping he learns from this and that we get better at closing games (which was probably Monty's biggest weakness).

[B.H.F.C]

Oh I agree mate, there’s very few players in the squad I wouldn’t be unhappy to see out the door, this is a Hibs squad that I feel so little affinity to.


I was more meaning that gray *should* have been able to rely on experienced players to be professional and see it out. That he can’t rely on them, and that they’ve repeatedly shown they can’t be relied on, is a sad indictment on them and the club

I think that is where my frustration lies with Gray. He’s inexperienced as a manager but he’s been there and seen us do the same things repeatedly. The biggest positive of him getting the job was that he should have known things that didn’t work and not made the same mistake. Changing the team at Kelty was a mistake. Playing a midfield containing both Newell and Campbell against proper opposition is a mistake. That sub today was a mistake. We can’t defend our box, keep the ball up the other end. With that sub, anything but that was going to happen.

[basehibby]

I’d understand doing it at 90mins to slow the game down.

But to do it at 83/84 mins when there’s still possibly 10mins ish to play is ridiculous.

This 100% - there was no need to change the formation as we were on top and looking more likely to score. This immediately turned on its head after taking Miko off - all of a sudden little would stick and the ball just kept coming back at us.
Tactical error from SDG.

[Keepthefaith]

Agreed. Not directed at the poster you quoted but how has it come to this that we are quite happy with giving up a 2-1 lead at home to Dundee in the final minutes of the game? There are excuses after excuses being rolled out every week. Standards have slipped so far now that making top 6 would be like making Europe

in response to yourself and Alfred - it's some creative reframing you both do to somehow turn constructive critique of Gary into folk being happy with drawing from a winning position or somehow settling for top 6.

My comments were more aimed at my namesake (the OP) and some of the posters that followed who see bringing Rocky on as evidence that Gary doesn't have what it takes. I was really clear that I think he made an error today, but was also keen to acknowledge the positive decisions he made and argue that we shouldn't maybe make generalised statements so soon into the season. no one has said he is the messiah but we have said that second half we kicked on, the subs he made were good and I think when he has everyone fit / new additions in, we should then look to the performances and judge him more critically then. it was interesting for instance to see Obita go from having an absolute mare of a first half to playing well in the second. is that down to Gray or to the player himself?

all I'm asking for is a bit of a more measured response, not some reactionary **** like he made a dodgy sub so he clearly is going to get us relegated...

[Hibi]

Yeah in the same, just not having it.

We still had offensive threats on.

The goal came from nothing - O’Hora completely switched off and Murray got in behind.


Nothing to do with 3 at the back

Agreed. Out defending was awful for the first when we had 4 at the back. It’s a regularly common move. When teams are a goal down they will typically throw everything at it for the last 10 minutes or so. Another defender to help clear lines and plug the gaps is sensible. What’s worry is that our defenders can’t do the basics, getting goal side, being alert and just clearing the ball.

[Donegal Hibby]

Gray putting Bowie on when he did was a smart substitution .

[andyf5]

Agreed. Out defending was awful for the first when we had 4 at the back. It’s a regularly common move. When teams are a goal down they will typically throw everything at it for the last 10 minutes or so. Another defender to help clear lines and plug the gaps is sensible. What’s worry is that our defenders can’t do the basics, getting goal side, being alert and just clearing the ball.

Good comment. I feel a lot of us are judging with hindsight and reinforcing the "rookie manager" label. There will be mistakes made but I think the substitution was sensible in the circumstances.

[GreenCastle]

this isn't really fair though is it? whilst I agree with the posters that we should have gone for a 3rd as we were playing well, there would equally have been an outcry on here had we conceded an equaliser without making a defensive sub - something along the lines of it being naive to not see how tired big Myk was etc etc.

decision making as a manager isn't always about experience - look at what Kieran McKenna did in his first job at Ipswich, or Arteta in his first year at Arsenal? look at how badly other experienced managers have done. Johnson was experienced and relatively successful. Actually, look at Docherty for Dundee - he didnt have any more managerial experience than Gary when he was appointed at Dundee?

its not totally down to Gray that Rocky and Ek go to head the same ball, it's not down to him either that Ohora switches off to such a degree that he completely doesn't see Murray. the defence are still gelling - it's not an excuse but a fact and sometimes they do need time to develop that understanding. are you really saying that you can't see positives from today, from some of the decisions that Gary did make? for me, I think his 3 subs worked well - lets give him credit for that and should have won us the game.

we'll know an awful lot more about Gary after the transfer window has shut and the decisions he continues to make regarding the team he puts out. for now I think he needs to be given a bit of slack - there were some positive signs today despite how doom and gloom we're all feeling about the draw.

No one is saying chuck on another striker but if Gray and staff felt there was an issue then put on another midfielder and congest the middle of the pitch or our wide to stop crosses into the box.

Docherty has way more experience than Gray in the dugout being an assistant with Killie / Bristol / Aberdeen and St J.

Players made mistakes yesterday but at the end of the day Gray and co picks the team and he is surely saying to those above him what is needed for the team to improve.

If he hasn’t realised we are weak at CB and still need a keeper then the staff and recruitment are totally clueless.

There seems to be always an excuse for Hibs - can we not just have a manager who improves us weekly - I’m not sure leading 2-1 and pressing the self destruct button with a poor sub is improving us. Changing the system and playing O’Hora in a position he’s never played before (on left) in a back 3 was just bad management.

Watching the teams yesterday while Dundee didn’t blow me away they looked mostly well organised and played at times with an intensity we rarely do - Docherty is getting the best out of his limited resources - we seems to be spending money and arguably worse than last season.

[H18 SFR]

Gray putting Bowie on when he did was a smart substitution .

Smart or glaringly obvious?

[JimBHibees]

Good comment. I feel a lot of us are judging with hindsight and reinforcing the "rookie manager" label. There will be mistakes made but I think the substitution was sensible in the circumstances.

Totally agree if we held on it isn’t even mentioned. Not his fault professional players lose their concentration when it matters

[at last 61]

And yet, if we had put on another striker for a defender to really go for it and it didn't work out, it would be the same on here it's the players on the pitch that are letting us down, not the manager, still not got a leader on that pitch,yet !!!

[Smartie]

I’m not as convinced the sub was what cost us.

It was a catalogue of individual errors AGAIN from Bursik’s “Jim Leighton duck hook” kick through O’Hora totally losing concentration to Bursik being slow off his line.

I don’t think any of that is down to formations or substitutions.

[CapitalGreen]

And yet, if we had put on another striker for a defender to really go for it and it didn't work out, it would be the same on here it's the players on the pitch that are letting us down, not the manager, still not got a leader on that pitch,yet !!!

Did he only have those 2 options? Put a defender on and sit back or put a striker on and go for it?

[GreenPJ]

Did he only have those 2 options? Put a defender on and sit back or put a striker on and go for it?

It was right to take Myko off, to be honest he had done very little all game and I do worry that he spends so much time on looking to use his body against opposition that he forgets he needs to do something with the ball first and foremost. I think putting on Amos would have sent out a better signal that we were not just trying to shut up shop (because over the last XX years we have been terrible at that) and invite pressure onto us on the last 3rd. Also Dundee continued to try and play football rather than just pump the ball long.

[ekhibee]

It was right to take Myko off, to be honest he had done very little all game and I do worry that he spends so much time on looking to use his body against opposition that he forgets he needs to do something with the ball first and foremost. I think putting on Amos would have sent out a better signal that we were not just trying to shut up shop (because over the last XX years we have been terrible at that) and invite pressure onto us on the last 3rd. Also Dundee continued to try and play football rather than just pump the ball long.

Amos has been pish in virtually every game he's played for Hibs. So far.

[Trinity Hibee]

And yet, if we had put on another striker for a defender to really go for it and it didn't work out, it would be the same on here it's the players on the pitch that are letting us down, not the manager, still not got a leader on that pitch,yet !!!

I’d rather draw a game by going for more goals than being incapable of defending yet choosing that option

[Onion]

Good comment. I feel a lot of us are judging with hindsight and reinforcing the "rookie manager" label. There will be mistakes made but I think the substitution was sensible in the circumstances.

Maybe right decision if you were sitting a football management exam , and assuming first team defenders can do basic defending. But Gray did this in full knowledge of how error prone our back line had been over last few games and last few seasons. To make a technical change, under those circs was plain dumb. Got to hope those 2 points don’t cost us come the end of the season when pushing for top 6 or even worse.
The next week is the most important in SDG’s managerial career. If he has any doubts about the quality of our new recruits, of our goalie or midfield he simply must scream and shout at MM /Board to bring in better or he could find himself out of a job soon.

[GreenArmy1875]

It's all ifs buts and maybes. That is football. If he didn't bring on a CB and they scored last minute people would be slating him for not. I know the team and the club need to give us something to cheer for and merit our support but as a support we need to be a bit more patient and supportive. The negativity in the support does not help a struggling team. It doesn't help us attract signings.

[Alfred E Newman]

Maybe right decision if you were sitting a football management exam , and assuming first team defenders can do basic defending. But Gray did this in full knowledge of how error prone our back line had been over last few games and last few seasons. To make a technical change, under those circs was plain dumb. Got to hope those 2 points don’t cost us come the end of the season when pushing for top 6 or even worse.
The next week is the most important in SDG’s managerial career. If he has any doubts about the quality of our new recruits, of our goalie or midfield he simply must scream and shout at MM /Board to bring in better or he could find himself out of a job soon.
There maybe was merit in making the change but it looked to me that he was sent on without a clear idea of how he was to fit into the back line. He spent the first couple of minutes bumping into his fellow defenders.

[Skol]

I couldn’t make the game yesterday so cannot really comment on what happened. We find ourselves in a position though where we need to get behind the manager and he needs to be given time. It has been a while since we have given a manager time and have acted hastily in recent times when things have been rocky.

I will hold my hand up and say I made my mind up on maloney too quickly and had also concluded Johnson’s time was up. I realise now that neither of these were smart decisions and the same can be said for Ross and Montgomery., although personally I wanted them to be given more time.

Gray needs to be given time to both build, his own team and learn the trade. Whilst he does this the fans need to support him and not pick over every possible mistake.

[Daydreamer]

O'hora looks so uncomfortable at left hand side central defender. Why did Gray not sign a left footed central defender. This level is not Van Dijk playing for Liverpool as was shown at Dundee's equaliser. I still think Obita's best game for Hibs was when he played central against Celtic last Xmas. Why not give him a chance there for a few games.

[Keepthefaith]

There maybe was merit in making the change but it looked to me that he was sent on without a clear idea of how he was to fit into the back line. He spent the first couple of minutes bumping into his fellow defenders.

Oh come on, you're aiming that at Gray? You think they don't train as a back 5 to know the basics? It was poor decision making again by both when rocky and Ek went for the same ball or do you really believe gray sent him on with a do what you want approach? You're just looking to have a dig

[Smartie]

O'hora looks so uncomfortable at left hand side central defender. Why did Gray not sign a left footed central defender. This level is not Van Dijk playing for Liverpool as was shown at Dundee's equaliser. I still think Obita's best game for Hibs was when he played central against Celtic last Xmas. Why not give him a chance there for a few games.

Apart from any other reason, because we’ve nobody else to play left back.

[Hiber-nation]

Apart from any other reason, because we’ve nobody else to play left back.

Nicky Cadden if we play 3-5-2. It's the only formation he'd play Obita in central defence.

[Crab apple]

Amos has been pish in virtually every game he's played for Hibs. So far.

Amos actually looks worse than Levitt which I didn't think was possible. I like Myko and thought his hold up play yesterday was pretty effective.

[Smartie]

Amos actually looks worse than Levitt which I didn't think was possible. I like Myko and thought his hold up play yesterday was pretty effective.

It was.

With a bit more support it could have been a big threat. I felt he was forced to hold onto the ball for too long at times whilst we got help to him.

[Callum_62]

Oh come on, you're aiming that at Gray? You think they don't train as a back 5 to know the basics? It was poor decision making again by both when rocky and Ek went for the same ball or do you really believe gray sent him on with a do what you want approach? You're just looking to have a digI assume Gray decided to move to a 3 and play them all in different positions as they played against Celtic

Doesn't make sense to do that at all

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[BoomtownHibees]

I assume Gray decided to move to a 3 and play them all in different positions as they played against Celtic

Doesn't make sense to do that at all

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Maybe he felt it made sense not to move O’Hora over to the right of the 3 after him playing on the left all game

[Callum_62]

Dumbest sub ever?

Taking Garry O'Connor off for Ivan Sproule

According to Garry O'Connor

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[Joe6-2]

Doesn’t sound like it


https://x.com/p_mcpartlin/status/1827398351127482756?s=48

I’d have preferred him to have held his hands up and say he made a mistake

[Percy Vere]

Eh?

Its a pretty common move. Managers do it up n down the country every week.

It was down to the players to execute, they didnt.

If were going to pin this on him, then doesvhe also get praise for bringing on campbell n bowie for an assist n goal?

Doubt it eh

Jeez
crazy talk
what are you doing coming in here with all your common sense and inability to slag everything the manager does or doesn't do.
less of it please! 😝

[JimBHibees]

I’d have preferred him to have held his hands up and say he made a mistake

It wasn’t really a mistake was it. We win if we defend properly

[cabbageandribs1875]

St Johnstone next at Easter Road. Better start to the season than us. Another team above us. A manager who has a lot more experience than ours to date. We good for a point? Would a point be ‘another’ good result? Is that where we are at?


some are setting an extremely low bar :(

[Dashing Bob S]

Personally could understand it however it needs our defenders to do the basics unfortunately they fell asleep at the end.

If it works it’s sensible and astute management, if it doesn’t he’s a clueless clown. I’m sure he knows that.

It didn’t work on this occasion.

We now have to ask if the players are still getting used to each other, or simply that we’ve signed players not up to scratch.

[A Hi-Bee]

Dumbest Sub ever may have been the unfortunate Kursk.

Pretty stupid thread in my humble.

[ancient hibee]

[QUOTE=Crab apple;7753429]Amos actually looks worse than Levitt which I didn't think was possible. I like Myko and thought his hold up play yesterday was pretty effective.[/QU

Where was Levitt yesterday?

[Callum_62]

[QUOTE=Crab apple;7753429]Amos actually looks worse than Levitt which I didn't think was possible. I like Myko and thought his hold up play yesterday was pretty effective.[/QU

Where was Levitt yesterday?Out for personal reasons

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Scotty Leither]

It's all ifs buts and maybes. That is football. If he didn't bring on a CB and they scored last minute people would be slating him for not. I know the team and the club need to give us something to cheer for and merit our support but as a support we need to be a bit more patient and supportive. The negativity in the support does not help a struggling team. It doesn't help us attract signings.

How many big games have we won under this Board’s/Owner’s stewardship?

Two derbies and zero league wins against the Old Firm? I’m struggling to find the positives to be honest.

[McD]

How many big games have we won under this Board’s/Owner’s stewardship?

Two derbies and zero league wins against the Old Firm? I’m struggling to find the positives to be honest.


Technically a 4-2 over Celtic under Lee Johnson towards the end of his season at Easter road, although Celtic were cantering to the title at that point

[GreenArmy1875]

How many big games have we won under this Board’s/Owner’s stewardship?

Two derbies and zero league wins against the Old Firm? I’m struggling to find the positives to be honest.

I get that trust me. The frustration should be directed at the board/owner. Not the players on the pitch.

[ancient hibee]

[QUOTE=ancient hibee;7753797]Out for personal reasons

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Thanks.That’s a shame.

[judas]

It’s a bit of a Kwondry isn’t it.

Oh, that was good. That was very good. 😊

[HoboHarry]

Only just seen this thread. So are we talking dumbest sub in Hibs history or in world fitba ever?

[Forza Fred]

How many big games have we won under this Board’s/Owner’s stewardship?

Two derbies and zero league wins against the Old Firm? I’m struggling to find the positives to be honest.

Malky Mackay was brought in to improve the footballing set up.

At what point does the honeymoon period expire?

[keep the faith]

To clarify my OP.
I am happy we have SDG as manager. He should be here for at least 2 years as we can't go on with this cycle of sacking and hiring. For what it's worth, I think he will be a success.
What I stand by (and the thread title was badly worded) is that it was crazy to change formation at that point of the game when we looked so much better with the change to 2 strikers. Unless your playing FIFA, formation changes take time to settle and we just handed them momentum.
If we were hanging on and facing a bombardment with minutes to go then maybe you need another CB in the box. That was not the case.
Someone mentioned Monty doing similar last year and that's true. It signals a lack of confidence from the bench and that bleeds on to the park and into the crowd. We had the game. Back our players and let them finish it. Don't put the handbrake on and hand over momentum to Dundee.
I back SDG 100% but that moment defines us on the park for the last few years and I hope that it's a learning point for the management team and not just the players.

[RIP]

The thing is that we didnt lose the equalising goal due to the substitution.

Under Gray, every Hibs player is still standing 2-3 metres away from the opposition whereas every Dundee player was in our player's face or wedged up his ass.

For their goal, please watch Simon Murray. He runs away from Ekpetita and to O'Hora's blind side. Marvin is then caught between leaving a central gap or following Murray.

He stays put, O'Hora is blindsided and the rest is history. Several times against Celtic, their forwards ran into spaces whilst our defenders tried and failed to 'pass the man on'.

Zonal marking poorly executed. I'm also confused why we had so few defenders in our box in the 88th minute. Format, tactics, coaching and decision-making were the main culprits - not the substitution.

[CapitalGreen]

The thing is that we didnt lose the equalising goal due to the substitution.

Under Gray, every Hibs player is still standing 2-3 metres away from the opposition whereas every Dundee player was in our player's face or wedged up his ass.

For their goal, please watch Simon Murray. He runs away from Ekpetita and to O'Hora's blind side. Marvin is then caught between leaving a central gap or following Murray.

He stays put, O'Hora is blindsided and the rest is history. Several times against Celtic, their forwards ran into spaces whilst our defenders tried and failed to 'pass the man on'.

Zonal marking poorly executed. I'm also confused why we had so few defenders in our box in the 88th minute. Format, tactics, coaching and decision-making were the main culprits - not the substitution.

These are all inextricably linked. The substitution was tactical, it required a formation change and was made by the coaching team.

[blackpoolhibs]

It wasn’t really a mistake was it. We win if we defend properly

How many times am i going to read that about Hibs?:boo hoo:

[Donegal Hibby]

I didn’t see anything wrong with the substitutions , considering Myko was knackered and they had put on a big battering ram up front about the 75 minute our choices around then were Megwa , McKirdy, Amos and Smith or Rocky .

[RIP]

These are all inextricably linked. The substitution was tactical, it required a formation change and was made by the coaching team.

Sorry but thats just poor analysis.

The substitution was not the reason we conceded. Newell, Obita, Boyle, Ekpetita and O'Hora were all on the field for 90 minutes.

Sub Rocky was tight to Curtis Main but not one of the other five was tight to his man. As result Dundee were given plenty time and space to pass the ball around the right flank before the final ball to Murray.

I hope that David Gray and the team pay closer interest to the highlights than the fans on social media before arriving at conclusions.

https://youtu.be/-Pn5jiPZIiA?si=fohHfmO3SanQ8cIH

[CapitalGreen]

Sorry but thats just poor analysis.

The substitution was not the reason we conceded. Newell, Obita, Boyle, Ekpetita and O'Hora were all on the field for 90 minutes.

Sub Rocky was tight to Curtis Main but not one of the other five was tight to his man. As result Dundee were given plenty time and space to pass the ball around the right flank before the final ball to Murray.

I hope that David Gray and the team pay closer interest to the highlights than the fans on social media before arriving at conclusions.

https://youtu.be/-Pn5jiPZIiA?si=fohHfmO3SanQ8cIH

I didn’t offer any analysis, I simply pointed out that you can’t separate the substitution from tactics, formation and coaching like you suggested. Whether you think it contributed to the goal or not the substitution was tactical and resulted in a formation change.

[ancient hibee]

The point about Rocky coming on was we should have been attempting to play the ball about at the other end. We should have brought on McKirdy to run about and occupy their defence. It’s no coincidence that a Dundee centre back was involved in the passes leading to the equaliser.The ball should have been permanently around their corner flags. Instead we surrendered one half of the park.A sub like that would be understandable if we were playing the OF but this was Dundee and their defence was no better than ours.

[JimBHibees]

How many times am i going to read that about Hibs?:boo hoo:

A lot of times agree

[JimBHibees]

Technically a 4-2 over Celtic under Lee Johnson towards the end of his season at Easter road, although Celtic were cantering to the title at that point

Was still a decent win wasn’t like they weren’t trying in saying that Scott Bain in goal helped 😄

[McD]

Was still a decent win wasn’t like they weren’t trying in saying that Scott Bain in goal helped 😄


Oh I’ll take a win over either arse cheek any time :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Oh I’ll take a win over either arse cheek any time :greengrin

Especially given how rare they are

[cubehindthegoal]

They didn’t qualify for Europe. They pipped us for 6th spot thanks to us shooting ourselves in the foot at Motherwell. Their first season back in the top league after several seasons in the Championship as well.
No way should we be patting ourselves on the back after throwing away 2 home points late in the game.

True, my bad, re Europe. I still see some improvement though, nine new players won’t click right so soon. As long as we keep improving … there are better signs we have some good players that can make a mark as we progress, and we may bring in another one or two.

[cubehindthegoal]

St Johnstone next at Easter Road. Better start to the season than us. Another team above us. A manager who has a lot more experience than ours to date. We good for a point? Would a point be ‘another’ good result? Is that where we are at?

No. I think Dundee are better than St Johnstone. I think our progress should include expecting to beat St Johnstone now.