General athleticism in Scots players

[LewysGot2]

I can’t but help feel our squad suffered from two fitness related issues in the tournament this month. Not enough of the squad are actually naturally athletic - the likes of Shanklandstein runs like he is towing a caravan - and there is a general lack of real pace. The ones who are fit enough to play at a higher level - McGinn, McTominay, Robertson- looked absolutely done in. A long season probably the biggest reason why SJM simply looked to have ran out of steam.

Other nations don’t seem to be afflicted in the same way to the same extent - the biggest nations have many more people to choose from and other wee nations seem to generally have a better relationship with health and fitness (eg Croatia)

Is there more we should be concerned about as a national football association than general fitness levels? Or is it our league set up and number of games our “best” players have to play ahead of tournament football?

if Shanklandstein was athletic he’d not be at Hearts but here we are folk lamenting a player with all the athleticism of Kris Boyd not getting a game…for Scotland :confused:

[Broken Gnome]

I can’t but help feel our squad suffered from two fitness related issues in the tournament this month. Not enough of the squad are actually naturally athletic - the likes of Shanklandstein runs like he is towing a caravan - and there is a general lack of real pace. The ones who are fit enough to play at a higher level - McGinn, McTominay, Robertson- looked absolutely done in. A long season probably the biggest reason why SJM simply looked to have ran out of steam.

Other nations don’t seem to be afflicted in the same way to the same extent - the biggest nations have many more people to choose from and other wee nations seem to generally have a better relationship with health and fitness (eg Croatia)

Is there more we should be concerned about as a national football association than general fitness levels? Or is it our league set up and number of games our “best” players have to play ahead of tournament football?

if Shanklandstein was athletic he’d not be at Hearts but here we are folk lamenting a player with all the athleticism of Kris Boyd not getting a game…for Scotland :confused:

Always think our players on the ball are incredibly un-nimble. There's very few that are good at getting the ball out of their feet and moving it on positively, which is painfully obvious against the better teams.

[chrisski33]

I think its more that our players aren't as good as some think they are tbh

[judas]

Shanklandstein:

😂:faf:

[Smartie]

I can’t but help feel our squad suffered from two fitness related issues in the tournament this month. Not enough of the squad are actually naturally athletic - the likes of Shanklandstein runs like he is towing a caravan - and there is a general lack of real pace. The ones who are fit enough to play at a higher level - McGinn, McTominay, Robertson- looked absolutely done in. A long season probably the biggest reason why SJM simply looked to have ran out of steam.

Other nations don’t seem to be afflicted in the same way to the same extent - the biggest nations have many more people to choose from and other wee nations seem to generally have a better relationship with health and fitness (eg Croatia)

Is there more we should be concerned about as a national football association than general fitness levels? Or is it our league set up and number of games our “best” players have to play ahead of tournament football?

if Shanklandstein was athletic he’d not be at Hearts but here we are folk lamenting a player with all the athleticism of Kris Boyd not getting a game…for Scotland :confused:

Are an ageing and slow Croatia side really the bar here?

The English league is a very physical league - you can’t survive there if you don’t have a certain physical make up and a number of our players are doing fine there.

I think we’re looking too deeply - we just really lack a “difference maker” who can turn right games in your favour, a striker, a 10 or a winger.

Where we get one of those from - I just don’t know, but we’ve not had anyone even close to fitting that description for at least 30 years. You see teams built out of a Hagi, Stoichkov, Bale or Lewandowski and a bunch of journeymen and it can be a formidable unit. It’s harder with a bunch of central midfielders and left backs whose primary attributes are, ironically enough, physical ones.

[ancient hibee]

I
I can’t but help feel our squad suffered from two fitness related issues in the tournament this month. Not enough of the squad are actually naturally athletic - the likes of Shanklandstein runs like he is towing a caravan - and there is a general lack of real pace. The ones who are fit enough to play at a higher level - McGinn, McTominay, Robertson- looked absolutely done in. A long season probably the biggest reason why SJM simply looked to have ran out of steam.

Other nations don’t seem to be afflicted in the same way to the same extent - the biggest nations have many more people to choose from and other wee nations seem to generally have a better relationship with health and fitness (eg Croatia)

Is there more we should be concerned about as a national football association than general fitness levels? Or is it our league set up and number of games our “best” players have to play ahead of tournament football?

if Shanklandstein was athletic he’d not be at Hearts but here we are folk lamenting a player with all the athleticism of Kris Boyd not getting a game…for Scotland :confused:

Doesn’t say much about the fitness of the rest of the SPFL if Shankland is our leading goal scorer while being so slow. Or is the truth that the real place that speed is needed is between the ears-a football brain that gets you to the right place at exactly the right time. It’s been said that Dalgleish was our last great player-even for those days nobody thought he was particularly athletic.

[Pretty Boy]

I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

Hickey will instantly improve us at RB. Hendry played well for long spells of the tournament. Lewis Ferguson looks likely to be playing for one of the top teams in Italy next season. Josh Doig looks likely to remain in Serie A. An exciting young talent in Ben Doak is on the radar and I still maintain there is a place for a player as naturally gifted as Ryan Gauld.

I was as disappointed as anyone with this tournament. It felt like the same mistakes as the previous tournament and it was all a bit timid.

There is a half decent spine still there though. Build around Hickey, Ferguson, Gilmour, McTominay, Hendry and try to get McGinn back into form and then try to unearth a couple of gems to compliment that.

I don't think it's a fitness issue. Inferior players look slower, more cumbersome and less mobile when faced with better players who pressure them, cut off space and deny them time to think.

[Scouse Hibee]

I

Doesn’t say much about the fitness of the rest of the SPFL if Shankland is our leading goal scorer while being so slow. Or is the truth that the real place that speed is needed is between the ears-a football brain that gets you to the right place at exactly the right time. It’s been said that Dalgleish was our last great player-even for those days nobody thought he was particularly athletic.

Please spell King Kenny’s surname correctly in future. 😉

[Lago]

Gordon Strachan made a somewhat similar point a few years ago.

[lugz]

I think its more that our players aren't as good as some think they are tbh

This is the biggy for me. I get we’ve all been excited for the last 2 euros but the expectations have been OTT. “We should beat the Czechs” “we’ll get something from Croatia” “we can get out this group”. Personally when I saw the latest group draw I thought we were done and honestly surprised we managed a point. Switzerland and Hungary were being massively underrated by our fans.

[Unseen work]

I think every country have their athletes or unauthentic players.

McKenna, McGinn, McTominay etc are absolute tanks but we probably lack real speed in our team. Guys like tierney, Robertson etc are as fit as you get.

Then you look at one of the best Spain players lately - Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, David Silva etc all of them aren’t athletic in the slightest

I think the difference about being tired etc is down to how we try and play the game too

[Smartie]

I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

Hickey will instantly improve us at RB. Hendry played well for long spells of the tournament. Lewis Ferguson looks likely to be playing for one of the top teams in Italy next season. Josh Doig looks likely to remain in Serie A. An exciting young talent in Ben Doak is on the radar and I still maintain there is a place for a player as naturally gifted as Ryan Gauld.

I was as disappointed as anyone with this tournament. It felt like the same mistakes as the previous tournament and it was all a bit timid.

There is a half decent spine still there though. Build around Hickey, Ferguson, Gilmour, McTominay, Hendry and try to get McGinn back into form and then try to unearth a couple of gems to compliment that.

I don't think it's a fitness issue. Inferior players look slower, more cumbersome and less mobile when faced with better players who pressure them, cut off space and deny them time to think.

FWIW I agree 100%.

I still maintain I think we need to find a wee bit of magic from somewhere. Doak looks to be our best chance but is there not a young striker at Villa as well, who went there from Rangers?

[cameronw-hfc]

FWIW I agree 100%.

I still maintain I think we need to find a wee bit of magic from somewhere. Doak looks to be our best chance but is there not a young striker at Villa as well, who went there from Rangers?


Rory Wilson. Seemingly scored a silly amount of goals in the games he played for the u21s last season. Very highly rated

[Stairway 2 7]

Our athleticism was fine when we beat Spain, Norway and Georgia to qualify

[BILLYHIBS]

Gordon Strachan said we were too wee make up your minds :greengrin

[green day]

Bernardo Silva is neither tall nor particularly fast.

Wonderful player though.

We dont need a team of giants, what we need is skilful players, some of whom will naturally be physically taller than others.

We have parents and coaches who love to stack the conservatory with meaningless trophies while their kids skills stagnate.

[hibbie02]

It wouldn't matter a jot how athletic that team are, the basic fact is there are a few good players and the rest are dross. Yes there are some new rising stars, but they don't seem to be able to replace some of the duds in the team.

We are potentially going to have decent full backs when fit, unfortunately Hickey and Paterson were injured and we had to suffer Ralston. We will never progress with McGregor (or McLean or Christie) in midfield but I have confidence that Ferguson, Morgan and Gilmour will provide a more dynamic future. Hopefully we ger a few more years out of McGinn and McTominay. Our biggest problems are out wide and up front. Robertson just does not seem able to replicate his Liverpool form for Scotland (or is told not to). We had sod all to offer from the Right wing in Germany. Do we need wingers or wing backs? I would suggest we need at least one out and out winger with speed and that is hopefully Doak, but he is young, raw and unproven. There are not many other options unfortunately.

The biggest issue is up front. If we ever do get the ball anywhere near the opposition box, we have no striker. Adams is not an international striker, never will be. Shanklandstein is a complete huddie and will only ever be of use at corners or pens (and I doubt he would take them for Scotland). Dykes has been useful from time to time, but needs the crosses. At 30 this year, he is not the future. In the last 5 seasons Scotland have scored 76 goals in total and only 20 have been scored by 5 strikers. McGinn and McTominay have scored 27 in that time.

Maybe Harry Potter was onto something with playing without a striker after all. :greengrin At the moment the Number 9 shirt is a waste of a jersey. Nisbet was a hope for a fast, deadly striker, but has faded since going to Millwall. Where is the next striker coming from?

[Brightside]

We aren't technically very good. And thats been the issue for as long as I've watched football. And anyone who watches youth football won't have seen any change in the last 20 years. As a country we don't allow it to develop. Not sure if thats a snobbery element or just a lack of patience and trust.

[hibsbollah]

‘We need to get big men and women together and see what they can do’ as Strachan says.

[Rick Rude]

Let's be honest, as a country we have a terrible relationship with food, alcohol, drugs and exercise. That starts from an early age and doesn't get much better.

Our best hope for the future is that any promising young players get out the country and develop somewhere else as early as possible.

[snedzuk]

Let's be honest, as a country we have a terrible relationship with food, alcohol, drugs and exercise. That starts from an early age and doesn't get much better.

Our best hope for the future is that any promising young players get out the country and develop somewhere else as early as possible.


Just been on the Elgin City website to see if there is any ticket info (there isnt), but I noticed this in the blurb for their upcoming friendly 'Food will be available at the pie shop within Borough Briggs'

[Stairway 2 7]

Let's be honest, as a country we have a terrible relationship with food, alcohol, drugs and exercise. That starts from an early age and doesn't get much better.

Our best hope for the future is that any promising young players get out the country and develop somewhere else as early as possible.
England has similar levels of alcohol and drug consumption. Food and exercise, play station use similar too, they are 5th in the world.

We finished above Norway to qualify, they must have a terrible diet

[hibsbollah]

England has similar levels of alcohol and drug consumption. Food and exercise, play station use similar too, they are 5th in the world.

We finished above Norway to qualify, they must have a terrible diet

Its not all one thing is it?

Health is one thing, policy making is the other. When big English cities started building cages in the estates, participation went up. Now 8 of the England team say they learnt their trade in informal cage leagues in their schemes. In Scotland, entitled boys clubs charge our kids parents £30 a month for rubbish coaching on fullsize muddy pitches. Where there are cages up here the kids love them, they’re permanently used

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Its not all one thing is it?

Health is one thing, policy making is the other. When big English cities started building cages in the estates, participation went up. Now 8 of the England team say they learnt their trade in informal cage leagues in their schemes. In Scotland, entitled boys clubs charge our kids parents £30 a month for rubbish coaching on fullsize muddy pitches. Where there are cages up here the kids love them, they’re permanently used

Exactly this. There seems to be a completely different approach to youth football and the development of young talent between Scotland and England.
Cage football/leagues comes from the favelas of Brazil originally and has been fully embraced by city councils up and down England. Initially to combat inner city gang culture its now starting to produce phenomenally talented young players, working class kids.
Meanwhile in Scotland the poorest children in society are priced out of participation and we produce robotic footballers with incredibly poor technical ability.

[Tyler Durden]

We don't have any issue with athleticism.

An interesting comparison in this tournament is Austria. They (IMO) do not have better players than us but in the space of 18 months or so, Rangnick has implemented a style and identity that is helping them compete with the better nations. They play with huge intensity and press in a co-ordinated fashion. The players buy into it, the fans seem to love it.

We've come in to the tournament on the back of some poor form and seemed to fall back into bad habits. Only really game plan being to "keep it tight" and hope for some good moments. Slow and laboured all over the park. The likes of McGinn and Robertson struggling to play anywhere near their normal standard.

I'm off on a bit of a tangent here but I suppose I'm blaming it on Clarke! We looked slow and laboured due to a lack of strategy, ambition and organisation.

[Stairway 2 7]

Its not all one thing is it?

Health is one thing, policy making is the other. When big English cities started building cages in the estates, participation went up. Now 8 of the England team say they learnt their trade in informal cage leagues in their schemes. In Scotland, entitled boys clubs charge our kids parents £30 a month for rubbish coaching on fullsize muddy pitches. Where there are cages up here the kids love them, they’re permanently used

Who are the 8 in this squad? I think Bowen, Toney and Watkins are the only 2 that weren't at a premier league club or championship club by the age of 10 and Watkins was at Exeter at 11

I think whilst obviously it might have helped them develop its understating their club development when pretty much all were at professional clubs at primary school. It's a success story for the massive clubs.

It's the route we're going down with sfa development schools set up by Malky Mackay. Billy gilmour, Calvin Ramsey, Nathan Paterson, Dylan Reid, Rory Whittaker, Ryan One, Connor Barron all from the schools plus more. 13 of the last squad of u21s came from performance schools. Hibs, Dundee united and Celtic are looking to mirror our development on it

Good players are getting snapped up and developed at such a young age now. Sad fact is most are going to England by 16 now, I don't know how that will effect us

[Pretty Boy]

There is a huge amount to unpack when it comes to where we get it wrong when developing youngsters.

The cost prohibitive part is definitely one but I'm not convinced the blame lies with greedy clubs. £30 a month is broadly in line with other activities, arguably even cheaper. My daughter goes to gymnastics and one 1 hour session a week is £22 a month. Swimming lessons for both my kids are £18 each a month for one 35 minute session a week. If most teams are training twice a week and playing one day pro rata £30 is significantly cheaper. Speaking from personal experience I took over an amateur team mid season in 2018 to stop them going under. I charged a fiver a week and by the time I paid for somewhere to train, a pitch to play on, referees fees, paid to have kits laundered and bought a few bits of equipment I was losing money every month. Over the course of 15 games I think I ended up about £200 out of pocket. The bigger issue is the cost of poor facilities and the even greater cost of good facilities. A full pitch at Peffermill for a game is currently £135 for 4G or £85 for grass. An hours training is £54 for grass or £110 for 4G. A grass pitch at the Gyle was about £40 for an hour to train but that's not much use in the winter, good luck getting on one of the council 4G pitches and they'll still set you back £80+. Carry a squad of 18 and £30 a month only brings in £540. Laundering a set of strips is about £20 a game so say £100 a month, lets go for the cheaper end of the scale with pitches and say training twice a week is £70 so £280 a month, you have 2 home games a month so £100 being generous and then you have to pay a ref twice so say approx £70. That's total outgoings of £550. No one is getting rich from that. That becomes a societal and thus a governmental problem. We need more facilities at far better prices to facilitate more clubs using them to their potential.

Quality of coaching is also a huge issue. The SFA coaching courses are in themselves really good. The instruction is informative and if you are there to learn and develop then you will get a lot from it and be an asset to youth football. If you are there to tick a box then you will still walk away 'qualified' (certainly at the entry levels) and no one willl bother to check in 6 months or a year how you are doing. Two examples spring to mind. About this time last year I saw a group of boys about 12 years old doing shuttle runs in a park, I stopped to watch and for 30 minutes this clown ran them into the ground. Why? Who is enjoying that? What is anyone learning from it? Get the ****ing ball out. I also recall seeing a guy have 10 players standing in front of him, pass the ball to him then run to the back of the line whilst he passed it to the next person. A 'drill' that saw the coach have 9 more touches in a single rotation than any player. Great work mate. There are so many simple variations of such a drill and the coaching courses teach you them. Again though continuous assessment costs money and that isn't plentiful or forthcoming. There is also the taboo of criticising volunteers, even when they are really bad at what they do. Of course there are loads of really good volunteers and guys who want to better themselves and their players too. I used to watch Lochend train a lot on their wee pitch at Lochend Park and it was a pleasure. Knowledgeable coaches, loads of the ball and youngsters clearly having fun. See also Spartans, Castlevale and a host of others.

Finally I think we make the jump to competitive 11 a side football far too young. A woman in my work has a son who is 12 and he is moving to 11 a sides next season. That's a breeding ground for 'just shoot, the keepers a midget' or 'stick the big man up top and launch it'. In fairness that is an improvement, I started playing 11s for Hutchie Vale when I was under 10s:faf: Another year of non competitive 7s then a year of semi competitive 9s on cut down pitches before moving to 11s at 14/15 would serve a lot of boys and girls far better. I'd go further and even when they go to 11s keep the leagues small and then have a month of the season where they switch down to Futsal or back to 7s and play a wee round robin. It won't happen because too many dads want the reflected glory of medals and trophies and to boast about how their boy 'is going to make it'. For a nation that so obviously loves it's football we have a really insular and destructive relationship with the game.

It would be a long term process but ripping up large parts of what we do and starting again would be the best thing we could do. Huge investment in community owned facilities, regional performance centres, community focused coaching through the school system with highly qualified coaches ensuring every child has access to coaching that makes them the best they can be, incentives for good coaches to follow it as a career path, ongoing assessment of coaches at all levels, removing competitiveness and focusing on development until mid teens and keeping parents a good distance away from the park to prevent the counter productive abuse of referees and contradictory instructions that undermines what players are being taught (from the good coaches at any rate).

[hibsbollah]

Who are the 8 in this squad? I think Bowen, Toney and Watkins are the only 2 that weren't at a premier league club or championship club by the age of 10 and Watkins was at Exeter at 11

I think whilst obviously it might have helped them develop its understating their club development when pretty much all were at professional clubs at primary school. It's a success story for the massive clubs.

It's the route we're going down with sfa development schools set up by Malky Mackay. Billy gilmour, Calvin Ramsey, Nathan Paterson, Dylan Reid, Rory Whittaker, Ryan One, Connor Barron all from the schools plus more. 13 of the last squad of u21s came from performance schools. Hibs, Dundee united and Celtic are looking to mirror our development on it

Good players are getting snapped up and developed at such a young age now. Sad fact is most are going to England by 16 now, I don't know how that will effect us

Training Ground Guru | Kieran Squire: Benefits of cage football in youth development (https://trainingground.guru/articles/kieran-squire-benefits-of-cage-football-in-youth-development)
Here's the article, it was actually 7 of the 25 players called up at the end of 2023. That doesnt include the likes of Eze and Saka, Wan Bissaka and Jadon Sancho, who said cage football 'made him'. And of course there will be lots more who havent bothered to mention it practically or thought to credit it. Basically, if someone came through from areas like Lewisham in South London or in certain postcodes in manchester, you know they were cage footballers.
Just like formal education, sometimes the less structure and organisation when you're young is better for developing skills.

[Brightside]

There is a huge amount to unpack when it comes to where we get it wrong when developing youngsters.

The cost prohibitive part is definitely one but I'm not convinced the blame lies with greedy clubs. £30 a month is broadly in line with other activities, arguably even cheaper. My daughter goes to gymnastics and one 1 hour session a week is £22 a month. Swimming lessons for both my kids are £18 each a month for one 35 minute session a week. If most teams are training twice a week and playing one day pro rata £30 is significantly cheaper. Speaking from personal experience I took over an amateur team mid season in 2018 to stop them going under. I charged a fiver a week and by the time I paid for somewhere to train, a pitch to play on, referees fees, paid to have kits laundered and bought a few bits of equipment I was losing money every month. Over the course of 15 games I think I ended up about £200 out of pocket. The bigger issue is the cost of poor facilities and the even greater cost of good facilities. A full pitch at Peffermill for a game is currently £135 for 4G or £85 for grass. An hours training is £54 for grass or £110 for 4G. A grass pitch at the Gyle was about £40 for an hour to train but that's not much use in the winter, good luck getting on one of the council 4G pitches and they'll still set you back £80+. Carry a squad of 18 and £30 a month only brings in £540. Laundering a set of strips is about £20 a game so say £100 a month, lets go for the cheaper end of the scale with pitches and say training twice a week is £70 so £280 a month, you have 2 home games a month so £100 being generous and then you have to pay a ref twice so say approx £70. That's total outgoings of £550. No one is getting rich from that. That becomes a societal and thus a governmental problem. We need more facilities at far better prices to facilitate more clubs using them to their potential.

Quality of coaching is also a huge issue. The SFA coaching courses are in themselves really good. The instruction is informative and if you are there to learn and develop then you will get a lot from it and be an asset to youth football. If you are there to tick a box then you will still walk away 'qualified' (certainly at the entry levels) and no one willl bother to check in 6 months or a year how you are doing. Two examples spring to mind. About this time last year I saw a group of boys about 12 years old doing shuttle runs in a park, I stopped to watch and for 30 minutes this clown ran them into the ground. Why? Who is enjoying that? What is anyone learning from it? Get the ****ing ball out. I also recall seeing a guy have 10 players standing in front of him, pass the ball to him then run to the back of the line whilst he passed it to the next person. A 'drill' that saw the coach have 9 more touches in a single rotation than any player. Great work mate. There are so many simple variations of such a drill and the coaching courses teach you them. Again though continuous assessment costs money and that isn't plentiful or forthcoming. There is also the taboo of criticising volunteers, even when they are really bad at what they do. Of course there are loads of really good volunteers and guys who want to better themselves and their players too. I used to watch Lochend train a lot on their wee pitch at Lochend Park and it was a pleasure. Knowledgeable coaches, loads of the ball and youngsters clearly having fun. See also Spartans, Castlevale and a host of others.

Finally I think we make the jump to competitive 11 a side football far too young. A woman in my work has a son who is 12 and he is moving to 11 a sides next season. That's a breeding ground for 'just shoot, the keepers a midget' or 'stick the big man up top and launch it'. In fairness that is an improvement, I started playing 11s for Hutchie Vale when I was under 10s:faf: Another year of non competitive 7s then a year of semi competitive 9s on cut down pitches before moving to 11s at 14/15 would serve a lot of boys and girls far better. I'd go further and even when they go to 11s keep the leagues small and then have a month of the season where they switch down to Futsal or back to 7s and play a wee round robin. It won't happen because too many dads want the reflected glory of medals and trophies and to boast about how their boy 'is going to make it'. For a nation that so obviously loves it's football we have a really insular and destructive relationship with the game.

It would be a long term process but ripping up large parts of what we do and starting again would be the best thing we could do. Huge investment in community owned facilities, regional performance centres, community focused coaching through the school system with highly qualified coaches ensuring every child has access to coaching that makes them the best they can be, incentives for good coaches to follow it as a career path, ongoing assessment of coaches at all levels, removing competitiveness and focusing on development until mid teens and keeping parents a good distance away from the park to prevent the counter productive abuse of referees and contradictory instructions that undermines what players are being taught (from the good coaches at any rate).

Small sided games, more touches, stop pigeon holing players at a young age. Playing in tight spaces is what creates footballers with good toach and technical ability. (and don't let parents near the touchlines at elite level games)

Also you are doing well to still get a team charing 30 a month. Many are up to 50.

[Pretty Boy]

Small sided games, more touches, stop pigeon holing players at a young age. Playing in tight spaces is what creates footballers with good toach and technical ability. (and don't let parents near the touchlines at elite level games)

Also you are doing well to still get a team charing 30 a month. Many are up to 50.

:agree:

I genuinely struggle to come up with any coherent argument for throwing 12 year olds onto a pitch designed for fully grown adults and telling them 'you're a left back now son' whilst someone shouts at them to 'cut out the fancy stuff'.

Teach them the fundamentals to a good level, get them playing 4v4, 5v5 etc, don't do anything that doesn't involve a football and ecourage them to express themselves as players.

[NorthNorfolkHFC]

A subject close to my heart.

It amazes me that there are few functional running coaches in Scotland. I played rugby and was quick but lacked athleticism, having proper running coaching meant that I improved by about 2 metres over 100m (gold dust in rugby terms).

I work in a school and the amount of kids that are very raw runners is staggering, with very little coaching they can become good runners.

I help out with a local rugby team and 95% of them 'cant run'. With a little coaching these guys are becoming much more efficient and powerful runners.

Running is fundamental in football and why we don't coach it is beyond me!!!

[Stairway 2 7]

Training Ground Guru | Kieran Squire: Benefits of cage football in youth development (https://trainingground.guru/articles/kieran-squire-benefits-of-cage-football-in-youth-development)
Here's the article, it was actually 7 of the 25 players called up at the end of 2023. That doesnt include the likes of Eze and Saka, Wan Bissaka and Jadon Sancho, who said cage football 'made him'. And of course there will be lots more who havent bothered to mention it practically or thought to credit it. Basically, if someone came through from areas like Lewisham in South London or in certain postcodes in manchester, you know they were cage footballers.
Just like formal education, sometimes the less structure and organisation when you're young is better for developing skills.

Of the 7

Marc Guehi was at Chelsea at 8, Fikayo Tomori isn't in the squad but was at Chelsea at 8, Ezri Konsa was at Charlton at 10, Declan Rice was at Chelsea at 6, Conor Gallagher was from rural Surrey but still at Chelsea at 8, Bukayo Saka Joined arsenal at 7, Levi Colwill isn't in the squad but was at Chelsea at 9.

As I say it might have helped them but they were getting coached and playing at the most advanced academy at the biggest clubs in the world. Most of the rest of the clubs were getting top training whilst at primary. Perhaps we should get our players to spl clubs younger

[hibsbollah]

Small sided games, more touches, stop pigeon holing players at a young age. Playing in tight spaces is what creates footballers with good toach and technical ability. (and don't let parents near the touchlines at elite level games)

Also you are doing well to still get a team charing 30 a month. Many are up to 50.

Completely agree with this. The concerning thing is the SFA know this, and it’s certainly what we were all taught as best practice while doing our badges. There’s something being lost between coach training and putting it into practice with the kids. Theres something else outwith the key messages thats justnot working.

[One Day Soon]

When I was a kid I played football every single day. During both morning and lunchtime breaks at primary school, then after school before dinner and then again after dinner until it was dark and I got called in. Same for most of secondary. During holidays if I wasn't playing with my mates in the park I was kicking a ball against a wall playing 'shapes', having wee fantasy competitions against myself kicking the ball against garage doors and walls, dribbling in and out of bottles for control.

Whatever else happened it mean that my close control was excellent, I could take on and beat almost anyone and it was very hard to get the ball off me. There's just no substitution for playing a lot and doing so in an environment where you are in contact with the ball a lot - whether that's cages or whatever else. There's a reason why they talk about having 10,000 hours at something to become expert at it.

[Pretty Boy]

Of the 7

Marc Guehi was at Chelsea at 8, Fikayo Tomori isn't in the squad but was at Chelsea at 8, Ezri Konsa was at Charlton at 10, Declan Rice was at Chelsea at 6, Conor Gallagher was from rural Surrey but still at Chelsea at 8, Bukayo Saka Joined arsenal at 7, Levi Colwill isn't in the squad but was at Chelsea at 9.

As I say it might have helped them but they were getting coached and playing at the most advanced academy at the biggest clubs in the world. Most of the rest of the clubs were getting top training whilst at primary. Perhaps we should get our players to spl clubs younger

I don't think it's one or the other.

It's possible they were being coached to a good standard but honing their skills in these fast paced, skill based street games.

It has maybe changed now but when I was young and went to a then SPL club the first thing they wanted (or rather demanded) you to do was cease all other football. No school football, no 5s with your mates, nothing. I understand it as you are ultimately an investment for them but it's a pretty depressing experience watching all your mates having fun whilst you are banned from joining in.

[One Day Soon]

Completely agree with this. The concerning thing is the SFA know this, and it’s certainly what we were all taught as best practice while doing our badges. There’s something being lost between coach training and putting it into practice with the kids. Theres something else outwith the key messages thats justnot working.


I think a really significant part of it is lack of infrastructure. And I think the other part of it is much more intangible and that's about the joy of the game. We are way too keen to get kids into structures and systems early on rather than helping them find the sheer joy of playing for fun in an unpressured environment.

[One Day Soon]

I don't think it's one or the other.

It's possible they were being coached to a good standard but honing their skills in these fast paced, skill based street games.

It has maybe changed now but when I was young and went to a then SPL club the first thing they wanted (or rather demanded) you to do was cease all other football. No school football, no 5s with your mates, nothing. I understand it as you are ultimately an investment for them but it's a pretty depressing experience watching all your mates having fun whilst you are banned from joining in.

Snap! Sounds like we are of similar mind and experiences.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think it's one or the other.

It's possible they were being coached to a good standard but honing their skills in these fast paced, skill based street games.

It has maybe changed now but when I was young and went to a then SPL club the first thing they wanted (or rather demanded) you to do was cease all other football. No school football, no 5s with your mates, nothing. I understand it as you are ultimately an investment for them but it's a pretty depressing experience watching all your mates having fun whilst you are banned from joining in.

It could have helped they 4 players from inner London in the squad but it's not a thing in the other cities the players come from. Loads in the squad went to City and Man U from being a bairn manchester doesn't have a cage football scene it does have astros like us but not the same.

I've been down to City and it's ridiculous they have 3 levels of under 5's up! They all get two training sessions a week and from under 14s they take 2 days of school a week to do full time training. They all get personal notes of their games every week and targets to reach. The youth team is a massive operation with dozens of paid coaches and their own player analysis.

Man cities youth has a bigger staff and better facilities and data analysis than both hibs and Hearts full teams. Hibs don't stop players playing in their own time now like they did, most train and play for their schools. I think the sfa performance schools is a big step forward to getting towards what England is doing but we don't have the cash to develop primary kids like they do.

[hibsbollah]

I think a really significant part of it is lack of infrastructure. And I think the other part of it is much more intangible and that's about the joy of the game. We are way too keen to get kids into structures and systems early on rather than helping them find the sheer joy of playing for fun in an unpressured environment.

Agree.

[Brightside]

Of the 7

Marc Guehi was at Chelsea at 8, Fikayo Tomori isn't in the squad but was at Chelsea at 8, Ezri Konsa was at Charlton at 10, Declan Rice was at Chelsea at 6, Conor Gallagher was from rural Surrey but still at Chelsea at 8, Bukayo Saka Joined arsenal at 7, Levi Colwill isn't in the squad but was at Chelsea at 9.

As I say it might have helped them but they were getting coached and playing at the most advanced academy at the biggest clubs in the world. Most of the rest of the clubs were getting top training whilst at primary. Perhaps we should get our players to spl clubs younger

Our spl clubs are **** compared to the teams you mentioned tho. Thats the problem. Far too many youth teams, not enough good coaches.

[Stairway 2 7]

Our spl clubs are **** compared to the teams you mentioned tho. Thats the problem. Far too many youth teams, not enough good coaches.

Yes because the clubs I mentioned pay millions per year to develop boys of 5 and train up full time youth coaches. All the England players were getting quality development from preteen. They are also taking the top talent from the spl clubs by the age of 15.

[He's here!]

I think its more that our players aren't as good as some think they are tbh

Maybe we're just not particularly good at football full stop. 23 years without qualifying for a major tournament and never getting out of the group stages on the occasions we have qualified tells a story.

For me there's too much obsession around football. There are better sports out there and we've produced plenty of world class individual sportsmen and women. So few of these sports attract the funding to enable mass participation tho. The way Scotland has ignored the opportunity to capitalise on the global prestige of Andy and Jamie Murray, for example, is pitiful.

There are some terrific, dedicated sports coaches in this country but as a nation we just seem to adopt a hope for the best mentality rather than put any sort of successful structure/pathways in place.

[Yorkshire HFC]

Agree.

We're good at watching sport - and drinking - but how many 40, 50 and 60 year olds participate? That's what kids see as normal.

Scottish society is not set up to be athletic - alcohol, drugs, diet, living conditions, the weather, poverty etc. And it seems to be easier to keep healthy the more money you have.

But I think the current generation are different and I think they want better - they look after themselves and are more concerned with how they live and have higher expectations. That's obviously a massive generalisation though.

The amount of coverage given to heavy drinking Scottish football supporters is strange though - it seems like they're trying to promote heavy drinking as a positive thing - change will be slow if this is the case. See also Hibs shirt sponsor.

[hibsbollah]

There are better sports out there.

See, this is where your audience started to drift off :greengrin

[ToulouseHibs]

We’ve just got better drugs on the continent mate. I’m in France and EPO is rife, even in amateur sporting events where nobody gives a crap. Cycling, one of the most intense drug testing regimes famously has issues to keep up. Why wouldnt high stakes football be the same, if not worse? Just a thought.GGTTH

[gbhibby]

Everyone has access to the same books etc on fitness.
Club have monitoring and individual plans for players. People in charge of fitness and conditioning will have degrees in Sports Science. You only get out what you put in, in training. Players should be conditioned properly and players have to take responsibility for looking after their bodies and have the drive to improve themselves technically and their conditioning.

[Paul1642]

We’ve just got better drugs on the continent mate. I’m in France and EPO is rife, even in amateur sporting events where nobody gives a crap. Cycling, one of the most intense drug testing regimes famously has issues to keep up. Why wouldnt high stakes football be the same, if not worse? Just a thought.GGTTH

I have never once considered this. I wonder if there’s actually something to it.

[Scorrie]

I was listening to John Collins yesterday saying that there needs to be more Scottish players in the Scottish premiership as this would help the national team. I agree with this as going back to the 80s, nearly all SPL teams were full of Scottish players so why not now? Has the supply dried up? Are SPL clubs (including us) a bit lazy and getting players from England lower leagues as “they can do a job”? Is the structure of the SPL wrong with perhaps a couple more teams giving a bit of breathing space and a gap to the relegation zone. Maybe a bit of all 3 ? The championship on a Friday shows that there is some decent young Scottish players out there. Perhaps we need to have a look at the market (if we’re not already)?

[James70]

I don't think the quality of our players is the main issue although it is certainly part of the problem.

Our tactics in every game were completely wrong and that is Steve Clarke's fault.

We didn't turn up for the Germany game at all and against Hungary we made no attempt to score until the last 10 minutes and half our passes were back to the goalkeeper.

There was a reluctance to put on substitutes and some players must have wondered why they even made the trip with the lack of game time they saw.

Yes we were unlucky with regard to injuries prior to the tournament but we didn't really start any match with a real effort to try and win it.

[Brightside]

I was listening to John Collins yesterday saying that there needs to be more Scottish players in the Scottish premiership as this would help the national team. I agree with this as going back to the 80s, nearly all SPL teams were full of Scottish players so why not now? Has the supply dried up? Are SPL clubs (including us) a bit lazy and getting players from England lower leagues as “they can do a job”? Is the structure of the SPL wrong with perhaps a couple more teams giving a bit of breathing space and a gap to the relegation zone. Maybe a bit of all 3 ? The championship on a Friday shows that there is some decent young Scottish players out there. Perhaps we need to have a look at the market (if we’re not already)?

Same thing is happening in the womens game. More foreign players coming in - development of youth dropping off a cliff.

[Paul1642]

I was listening to John Collins yesterday saying that there needs to be more Scottish players in the Scottish premiership as this would help the national team. I agree with this as going back to the 80s, nearly all SPL teams were full of Scottish players so why not now? Has the supply dried up? Are SPL clubs (including us) a bit lazy and getting players from England lower leagues as “they can do a job”? Is the structure of the SPL wrong with perhaps a couple more teams giving a bit of breathing space and a gap to the relegation zone. Maybe a bit of all 3 ? The championship on a Friday shows that there is some decent young Scottish players out there. Perhaps we need to have a look at the market (if we’re not already)?

The only way to make that happen is a rule regarding Scottish players in the squad, or even better on the pitch. I’m not sure if that would even be legal though and ‘homegrown’ would probably need to be the terminology.

As for league structure, ie a bigger league, this would make a difference IMO. The downside is more “Meaningless” games for several teams towards the end of the season, however these are the games we where young players could get a chance.

[Waxy]

A subject close to my heart.

It amazes me that there are few functional running coaches in Scotland. I played rugby and was quick but lacked athleticism, having proper running coaching meant that I improved by about 2 metres over 100m (gold dust in rugby terms).

I work in a school and the amount of kids that are very raw runners is staggering, with very little coaching they can become good runners.

I help out with a local rugby team and 95% of them 'cant run'. With a little coaching these guys are becoming much more efficient and powerful runners.

Running is fundamental in football and why we don't coach it is beyond me!!!

Not something you would think you can coach.
I always thought running was natural and everyone would have their own unique style.
Intersting indeed.
I think the culture in Scotland doesnt lend itself towards sporting success for young people.
Lets go for a pint and a kebab etc

[Smartie]

I was listening to John Collins yesterday saying that there needs to be more Scottish players in the Scottish premiership as this would help the national team. I agree with this as going back to the 80s, nearly all SPL teams were full of Scottish players so why not now? Has the supply dried up? Are SPL clubs (including us) a bit lazy and getting players from England lower leagues as “they can do a job”? Is the structure of the SPL wrong with perhaps a couple more teams giving a bit of breathing space and a gap to the relegation zone. Maybe a bit of all 3 ? The championship on a Friday shows that there is some decent young Scottish players out there. Perhaps we need to have a look at the market (if we’re not already)?

I actually couldn't disagree with this standpoint more. It's a variation on Faragism.

The Scottish players need to be better than the foreigners.

Our favourite players and the ones that do the best for our clubs financially are the ones who come through the ranks. How many games have we got out of Hanlon and Stevenson for the cost of their development? Did we not rebuild our whole club off the back of transfer fees for the golden generation?

Fair questions need to be asked about situations such as recruitment at one of the nation's biggest clubs being conducted by the owner's son - and the resultant effect on the workforce at that club, but in general I tend to dislike variations on the "too many bloody foreigners" chat.

There have actually been some posts over the past couple of pages on here, arguments which are amongst the best I've ever heard and read on the subject of what Scotland needs to do to improve it's fortunes. Presumably when I turn the radio on again it'll all be about sacking the manager , playstations and changing the number of teams in the top league again.

[Scorrie]

I actually couldn't disagree with this standpoint more. It's a variation on Faragism.

The Scottish players need to be better than the foreigners.

Our favourite players and the ones that do the best for our clubs financially are the ones who come through the ranks. How many games have we got out of Hanlon and Stevenson for the cost of their development? Did we not rebuild our whole club off the back of transfer fees for the golden generation?

Fair questions need to be asked about situations such as recruitment at one of the nation's biggest clubs being conducted by the owner's son - and the resultant effect on the workforce at that club, but in general I tend to dislike variations on the "too many bloody foreigners" chat.

There have actually been some posts over the past couple of pages on here, arguments which are amongst the best I've ever heard and read on the subject of what Scotland needs to do to improve it's fortunes. Presumably when I turn the radio on again it'll all be about sacking the manager , playstations and changing the number of teams in the top league again.

The last thing I intended was Faragism. It was more in the context of exposing Scottish qualified players to top flight football and whether our structures supported that. Apologies for any confusion

[NorthNorfolkHFC]

Not something you would think you can coach.
I always thought running was natural and everyone would have their own unique style.
Intersting indeed.
I think the culture in Scotland doesnt lend itself towards sporting success for young people.
Lets go for a pint and a kebab etc

You’re right to a degree, running ability is mostly natural. But there are tweaks to our arms and legs that can encourage more efficient running. Training techniques that also promote speed.

This is applicable for all types of runners. In rugby terms, even the big lads can improve their style and get faster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Just_Jimmy]

We’ve just got better drugs on the continent mate. I’m in France and EPO is rife, even in amateur sporting events where nobody gives a crap. Cycling, one of the most intense drug testing regimes famously has issues to keep up. Why wouldnt high stakes football be the same, if not worse? Just a thought.GGTTHAbsolutely. Also, due to the money in the game, the brand must be protected at all costs. The game is bent.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[The Modfather]

The only way to make that happen is a rule regarding Scottish players in the squad, or even better on the pitch. I’m not sure if that would even be legal though and ‘homegrown’ would probably need to be the terminology.

As for league structure, ie a bigger league, this would make a difference IMO. The downside is more “Meaningless” games for several teams towards the end of the season, however these are the games we where young players could get a chance.

I’m sure the Dutch league has, or certainly had, the homegrown rule. It was a gentleman’s agreement with the clubs rather than an official league rule. I’ve always wanted to see Scottish football go down that route. Speaking for Hibs, we have a pretend attitude towards being serious about developing our own players. As a result our youth system is more like a money pit than a fundamental part of the club.

[Smartie]

The last thing I intended was Faragism. It was more in the context of exposing Scottish qualified players to top flight football and whether our structures supported that. Apologies for any confusion

Apologies - I do appreciate that, and realise you were quoting John Collins as well.

It’s just something I feel quite strongly about, the whole cause and effect thing.

Let’s just say there are too many foreigners - is that causing Scots not to get opportunities, stunting their development? I don’t think so, but that sort of thing is a popular narrative.

But could it be because the young Scots aren’t good enough because of all the reasons listed above and it’s a symptom of our ills and our clubs need to source adequate players elsewhere? I could reluctantly go along with that.

Where you’ve then got to be careful is what you do with that - imposing caps on numbers of foreigners etc, which imo is never the answer.

[The Modfather]

Apologies - I do appreciate that, and realise you were quoting John Collins as well.

It’s just something I feel quite strongly about, the whole cause and effect thing.

Let’s just say there are too many foreigners - is that causing Scots not to get opportunities, stunting their development? I don’t think so, but that sort of thing is a popular narrative.

But could it be because the young Scots aren’t good enough because of all the reasons listed above and it’s a symptom of our ills and our clubs need to source adequate players elsewhere? I could reluctantly go along with that.

Where you’ve then got to be careful is what you do with that - imposing caps on numbers of foreigners etc, which imo is never the answer.

I’d stay clear of making the restrictions based on nationality. A more positive way to do it is to require x number of players, of any nationality, through the academy in the squad/first team.

[hibsbollah]

The last thing I intended was Faragism. It was more in the context of exposing Scottish qualified players to top flight football and whether our structures supported that. Apologies for any confusion

The problem is, your perfectly innocent and genuine reasons for thinking that can get confused by folk with other agendas bubbling under the surface. France is a really troubled place in that respect and this survey from our German hosts recently blew my mind

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/germany-survey-national-soccer-team-white-players-racism-discussion/

[Colr]

I

Doesn’t say much about the fitness of the rest of the SPFL if Shankland is our leading goal scorer while being so slow. Or is the truth that the real place that speed is needed is between the ears-a football brain that gets you to the right place at exactly the right time. It’s been said that Dalgleish was our last great player-even for those days nobody thought he was particularly athletic.

Ally Macleod and Andy Ritchie were slow but scored a lot of goals. Unlike Shankland they got nowhere near the Scotland squad as we had much better options then.

[He's here!]

See, this is where your audience started to drift off :greengrin

Probably...although there can't be many fans of the current Scotland (or Hibs) team who claim they're watching them for the quality of their football.

[Stairway 2 7]

The problem is, your perfectly innocent and genuine reasons for thinking that can get confused by folk with other agendas bubbling under the surface. France is a really troubled place in that respect and this survey from our German hosts recently blew my mind

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/germany-survey-national-soccer-team-white-players-racism-discussion/

People could but they folk would be aresholes. There is a world of difference between wanting more whites in the national team to wanting more Scots of all colours playing in the spl. Lots of countries have development player or nationality quotas

As an aside one of the reasons we could be behind is Scotland is terrible at getting immigrants to move here, a fraction of the immigration in England for example. How many players have we had recently who's parents were refugees or economic migrants, a handful? .Immigrants are generally young have large families (our pop is aging) are often hungry for success and some particularly West Africans are more likely to have fast twich fibers so fast and powerful. I'm pro increased immigration anyway but I wonder if it would improve our football. Hopefully the ones here have good opportunities to play

[He's here!]

Ally Macleod and Andy Ritchie were slow but scored a lot of goals. Unlike Shankland they got nowhere near the Scotland squad as we had much better options then.

Ritchie was known at Morton as the 'idle idol'.

There's a Chick Young quote on Ritchie's Wiki page, describing him as 'the epitome of a Scottish footballer...a fat, lazy b***tard but with great skill.'

Hard to think of many Scottish players with great skill these days.

[marinello59]

I

Doesn’t say much about the fitness of the rest of the SPFL if Shankland is our leading goal scorer while being so slow. Or is the truth that the real place that speed is needed is between the ears-a football brain that gets you to the right place at exactly the right time. It’s been said that Dalgleish was our last great player-even for those days nobody thought he was particularly athletic.

Kenny Dalglish worked incredibly hard. I remember how red faced he used to be when leaving the pitch whilst he was at Celtic. Maybe not a natural athlete but he did his best to make up for that.


Ally Macleod and Andy Ritchie were slow but scored a lot of goals. Unlike Shankland they got nowhere near the Scotland squad as we had much better options then.

What a player Ritchie was. He was at Celtic at the same time as Dalglish, if only he had been blessed with the work ethic to match his skill level, their careers would have been comparable.

[where'stheslope]

Ally Macleod and Andy Ritchie were slow but scored a lot of goals. Unlike Shankland they got nowhere near the Scotland squad as we had much better options then.
Any player who can score goals season after season has to be worth a try.
If you remember Ally McCoist scored loads of goals, but is probably most remembered by other team fans for the amount of misses he had.
So a player scoring loads of goals has to have a team around him creating these chances.
In the case of Scotland at the Euros, can't remember many clear cut chance created for either of the strikers we had on the pitch!
Most of the passes in the forward position were looking for McTominay or McGinn.

[ian cruise]

We’ve just got better drugs on the continent mate. I’m in France and EPO is rife, even in amateur sporting events where nobody gives a crap. Cycling, one of the most intense drug testing regimes famously has issues to keep up. Why wouldnt high stakes football be the same, if not worse? Just a thought.GGTTH

I was at a Q&A with cycling commentator Carlton Kirby a, month or so ago and he raised this very point. Other sports are rife with it, particularly the ones where there's money to be made, but cycling and athletics are the ones under the scope because historically they had issues. People always point to the fact there are still athletes in those sports testing positive but missing the point it's because they've far more rigorous testing because of their previous history.

Personal I believe football, rugby, tennis are rife. Probably many US sports too.

[calumb]

There is a huge amount to unpack when it comes to where we get it wrong when developing youngsters.

The cost prohibitive part is definitely one but I'm not convinced the blame lies with greedy clubs. £30 a month is broadly in line with other activities, arguably even cheaper. My daughter goes to gymnastics and one 1 hour session a week is £22 a month. Swimming lessons for both my kids are £18 each a month for one 35 minute session a week. If most teams are training twice a week and playing one day pro rata £30 is significantly cheaper. Speaking from personal experience I took over an amateur team mid season in 2018 to stop them going under. I charged a fiver a week and by the time I paid for somewhere to train, a pitch to play on, referees fees, paid to have kits laundered and bought a few bits of equipment I was losing money every month. Over the course of 15 games I think I ended up about £200 out of pocket. The bigger issue is the cost of poor facilities and the even greater cost of good facilities. A full pitch at Peffermill for a game is currently £135 for 4G or £85 for grass. An hours training is £54 for grass or £110 for 4G. A grass pitch at the Gyle was about £40 for an hour to train but that's not much use in the winter, good luck getting on one of the council 4G pitches and they'll still set you back £80+. Carry a squad of 18 and £30 a month only brings in £540. Laundering a set of strips is about £20 a game so say £100 a month, lets go for the cheaper end of the scale with pitches and say training twice a week is £70 so £280 a month, you have 2 home games a month so £100 being generous and then you have to pay a ref twice so say approx £70. That's total outgoings of £550. No one is getting rich from that. That becomes a societal and thus a governmental problem. We need more facilities at far better prices to facilitate more clubs using them to their potential.

Quality of coaching is also a huge issue. The SFA coaching courses are in themselves really good. The instruction is informative and if you are there to learn and develop then you will get a lot from it and be an asset to youth football. If you are there to tick a box then you will still walk away 'qualified' (certainly at the entry levels) and no one willl bother to check in 6 months or a year how you are doing. Two examples spring to mind. About this time last year I saw a group of boys about 12 years old doing shuttle runs in a park, I stopped to watch and for 30 minutes this clown ran them into the ground. Why? Who is enjoying that? What is anyone learning from it? Get the ****ing ball out. I also recall seeing a guy have 10 players standing in front of him, pass the ball to him then run to the back of the line whilst he passed it to the next person. A 'drill' that saw the coach have 9 more touches in a single rotation than any player. Great work mate. There are so many simple variations of such a drill and the coaching courses teach you them. Again though continuous assessment costs money and that isn't plentiful or forthcoming. There is also the taboo of criticising volunteers, even when they are really bad at what they do. Of course there are loads of really good volunteers and guys who want to better themselves and their players too. I used to watch Lochend train a lot on their wee pitch at Lochend Park and it was a pleasure. Knowledgeable coaches, loads of the ball and youngsters clearly having fun. See also Spartans, Castlevale and a host of others.

Finally I think we make the jump to competitive 11 a side football far too young. A woman in my work has a son who is 12 and he is moving to 11 a sides next season. That's a breeding ground for 'just shoot, the keepers a midget' or 'stick the big man up top and launch it'. In fairness that is an improvement, I started playing 11s for Hutchie Vale when I was under 10s:faf: Another year of non competitive 7s then a year of semi competitive 9s on cut down pitches before moving to 11s at 14/15 would serve a lot of boys and girls far better. I'd go further and even when they go to 11s keep the leagues small and then have a month of the season where they switch down to Futsal or back to 7s and play a wee round robin. It won't happen because too many dads want the reflected glory of medals and trophies and to boast about how their boy 'is going to make it'. For a nation that so obviously loves it's football we have a really insular and destructive relationship with the game.

It would be a long term process but ripping up large parts of what we do and starting again would be the best thing we could do. Huge investment in community owned facilities, regional performance centres, community focused coaching through the school system with highly qualified coaches ensuring every child has access to coaching that makes them the best they can be, incentives for good coaches to follow it as a career path, ongoing assessment of coaches at all levels, removing competitiveness and focusing on development until mid teens and keeping parents a good distance away from the park to prevent the counter productive abuse of referees and contradictory instructions that undermines what players are being taught (from the good coaches at any rate).

This is a brilliant post 👍 hits the nail firmly on the head.

[Bristolhibby]

A subject close to my heart.

It amazes me that there are few functional running coaches in Scotland. I played rugby and was quick but lacked athleticism, having proper running coaching meant that I improved by about 2 metres over 100m (gold dust in rugby terms).

I work in a school and the amount of kids that are very raw runners is staggering, with very little coaching they can become good runners.

I help out with a local rugby team and 95% of them 'cant run'. With a little coaching these guys are becoming much more efficient and powerful runners.

Running is fundamental in football and why we don't coach it is beyond me!!!

My mate down here in Bath played professional rugby for Bristol. When we were kids in the close season he used to go up and train with the sprinters at Team Bath athletics squad. Gave him that edge.

Played on the wing for Plymouth, Bristol, Leicester, Wasps and the Barbarians.

J