Building from the back

[Donegal Hibby]

I read this article which suggests the one thing Gray should keep from Monty's time is building from the back as it works .

Maybe it does work though I felt last season at times we took unnecessary risks playing this way and probably done to much of it in games as well .

Just wondering what your thoughts on this are and is it something you can see gray continuing with?.


https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/why-new-hibs-boss-should-keep-at-least-one-element-of-monty-masterplan-4664549

[JohnM1875]

He should only continue with it if he can make it work. Majority of the time under Montgomery it was a total failure. You need to be committed, break lines and play passes with pace for it to work. We fannied about in defence too much.

It also only really works when a team press you. More often than not teams sit off us, especially at home.

[MWHIBBIES]

It certainly worked. We had no issue getting from goalie to midfield to forwards. It was there it broke down.

[Jim44]

They should name it ‘doggy style’ attack.:greengrin

[keep the faith]

I read this article which suggests the one thing Gray should keep from Monty's time is building from the back as it works .

Maybe it does work though I felt last season at times we took unnecessary risks playing this way and probably done to much of it in games as well .

Just wondering what your thoughts on this are and is it something you can see gray continuing with?.


https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/why-new-hibs-boss-should-keep-at-least-one-element-of-monty-masterplan-4664549

I would definitely prefer we play out from the back, but we need to be faster and more flexible. Able to play it long when required.

Watching levitt and co continually being given the ball from the keeper at the edge of the D, facing Marshall was painful. It felt forced, immediately put us on the back foot and must have been so easy to play against.

DG needs to mix it up......and get better players.

[Unseen work]

It worked at times, other times it failed. More success in retaining the ball than a launch forward but there are arguments for and against.

Build like Montgomery and were under pressure against teams that press or if were slack, when we lose it were very open and close to our own goal. If it works we look brilliant.

Go longer and it’s a 50/50. The only thing is even if it’s a 50/50 and it goes up we’re more than likely playing in their half.

The issue with Monty at times is we’d beat the press and then go back again.

I think Gray will mix it up, he’ll want the game changers on the ball alot more than a Rocky Bushiri.

I think we’ll see either playing short with the view of a diagonal pass to the winger who is isolated and 1v1 with the full back, or a direct long goal kick where we think we have a height advantage. For example target miller and hope his flick on gets Boyle through.

[Greensunshine]

No issue with playing out from the back but it definitely depends on who we’re playing against.

Slow build up play against the lesser teams gives them time to get behind the ball and can give encouragement as the clock ticks down.

There’s definitely a case for mixing it up and to try and be unpredictable.

[Donegal Hibby]

I would definitely prefer we play out from the back, but we need to be faster and more flexible. Able to play it long when required.

Watching levitt and co continually being given the ball from the keeper at the edge of the D, facing Marshall was painful. It felt forced, immediately put us on the back foot and must have been so easy to play against.

DG needs to mix it up......and get better players.

Totally agree .

Think we will see Grays team mix it up rather than only sticking to the one way of playing.

[EGL2000]

I'm all for trying to play it but you need people comfortable on the ball and taking it in under pressure. Also helps if you have a midfielder who can turn out of the press with the ball which we currently don't have.

[ChilliEater]

He should only continue with it if he can make it work. Majority of the time under Montgomery it was a total failure. You need to be committed, break lines and play passes with pace for it to work. We fannied about in defence too much.

It also only really works when a team press you. More often than not teams sit off us, especially at home.

From the article:
"a deeper dive into the numbers reveals just how effective this ploy was. Only Celtic were better than Hibs when it came to turning those build-ups into attacks on the opposition goal.

Going short from the goalie worked."

[matty_f]

From the article:
"a deeper dive into the numbers reveals just how effective this ploy was. Only Celtic were better than Hibs when it came to turning those build-ups into attacks on the opposition goal.

Going short from the goalie worked."

I know what the article is driving at but I think it’s a classic case of using one metric to prove a point, which really doesn’t work.

When it says going short from the goalie worked, what did we give up to get those chances? We had one of the worst defenders in the league, so if you apply that metric to the tactic, we should stop it immediately.

What was the quality of those attacks? Over the season we scored a good number of goals but only more than two goals in a league game once all season, iirc. From memory, I think Killie, Hearts and Motherwell outscored us (other than Rangers and Celtic) - or were within a couple of goals either side, at least. Would we have been better served copying their styles?

Sergio Raymondo posted some clips of our build up play on LinkedIn after they were sacked, and you could watch that and think we were pretty good to watch last season, but if you realised those highlights were most of the times that it worked over the season and lasted ten minutes, and that there will be hours of footage where it didn’t work, where we knocked it about for a few minutes before Marshall or Miller or Rocky launched it into touch, or we lost the ball and then a comically bad goal, you’d be forgiven for never wanting to see a keeper play it short again.

We finished eighth, now how much of that was down to playing out from the back, i don’t know, but to suggest it was effective and the one thing SDG should keep, feels a bit of a tenuous argument to me.

[ChilliEater]

I know what the article is driving at but I think it’s a classic case of using one metric to prove a point, which really doesn’t work.

When it says going short from the goalie worked, what did we give up to get those chances? We had one of the worst defenders in the league, so if you apply that metric to the tactic, we should stop it immediately.

What was the quality of those attacks? Over the season we scored a good number of goals but only more than two goals in a league game once all season, iirc. From memory, I think Killie, Hearts and Motherwell outscored us (other than Rangers and Celtic) - or were within a couple of goals either side, at least. Would we have been better served copying their styles?

Sergio Raymondo posted some clips of our build up play on LinkedIn after they were sacked, and you could watch that and think we were pretty good to watch last season, but if you realised those highlights were most of the times that it worked over the season and lasted ten minutes, and that there will be hours of footage where it didn’t work, where we knocked it about for a few minutes before Marshall or Miller or Rocky launched it into touch, or we lost the ball and then a comically bad goal, you’d be forgiven for never wanting to see a keeper play it short again.

We finished eighth, now how much of that was down to playing out from the back, i don’t know, but to suggest it was effective and the one thing SDG should keep, feels a bit of a tenuous argument to me.

I don't disagree - my response was to the "total failure" comment. I've been getting a little triggered over the last 6 months or so by the cataclysmic tsunami of hyperbolic catastrophising (see what I did there :wink:) around season 23/24. "total failure", "shambles", "inept", "clown from a pub league" etc etc.

Someone posted a iist of our finishing positions over the last 20 or 25 seasons on a thread a little while ago. 8th is pretty much our average. It wasn't a complete disaster. It was average. Disappointing, not as good as we'd hope for, below what our relative budget should produce, but not a disaster.

Some of what Montgomery did worked, too much of it didn't. Just like Johnson, Maloney, Ross and Heckingbottom before him.

Playing out from the back sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. The new coaching team will have their own ideas on how they want to play. If it involves a similar game style to the previous one then they should probably be looking at when and why it worked and when and why it didn't and then making minor adjustments to get it working more often.

[Albert Kidd 86’]

Hibs got a full lesson first hand on how to play out from the back at ER when we played Villa.

I clearly remember villa players actually standing with the ball at times just waiting for one of our players to get impatient, and run towards them, then a villa midfielder or striker would INSTANTLY, run into the space left by the impatient Hibee and the ball would go to them at speed, which was then turned into a fast move onwards to the box.

Vente, Youan and Boyle can do this but it takes discipline and skill, which Villa had and we did not, but occasionally over last season we did see flashes of it.

when it is done right it is a marvellous thing to behold.

[Steve-O]

It does work as it draws teams out and leaves space in behind to attack.

[bingo70]

It does work as it draws teams out and leaves space in behind to attack.

I think the key to it is finding the right balance. The problem with forums like this and social media is the need to define things as good or bad, in reality most things will have good and bad, whether that’s discussing a style of play, a manager or a player.

It’s not as simple as playing out from the back = bad and going direct = good or vice versa.

Last season we tried it when it wasn’t on and with people who weren’t totally comfortable doing it but there was times it worked because the situation in the game at that moment meant it was the right time to do it.

In short, I hope we don’t abandon it, as you say, there’s pretty sound logic to it, I also hope we apply some more common sense to it though and recognise there’s a time and a place to go direct quicker.

[hibsbollah]

Hibs got a full lesson first hand on how to play out from the back at ER when we played Villa.

I clearly remember villa players actually standing with the ball at times just waiting for one of our players to get impatient, and run towards them, then a villa midfielder or striker would INSTANTLY, run into the space left by the impatient Hibee and the ball would go to them at speed, which was then turned into a fast move onwards to the box.

Vente, Youan and Boyle can do this but it takes discipline and skill, which Villa had and we did not, but occasionally over last season we did see flashes of it.

when it is done right it is a marvellous thing to behold.

The obvious difference watching their players and ours was the perfect control their olayers had when receiving the ball, so any press the opposition does is nullified because as soon as your defender receives the ball the control has already allowed the ball to automatically be at the correcr position to make the next pass. Thats quality players for you. Our defenders pass the ball incorrectly and take heavy touches regularly, which slows down any quick break and we cant change the pace.

[wookie70]

I hope we play a style and system that suits our players, particularly our best ones. Last season we looked to be playing a style that nullified our best attacking threats while putting unneeded pressure on defenders who are not the best on the ball. It was also a complete borefest barring the odd bit of possession that was actually played with a bit of pace. No issue passing the ball short but you need movement and speed to make it work and for it be be enjoyable to work.

[JohnM1875]

I don't disagree - my response was to the "total failure" comment. I've been getting a little triggered over the last 6 months or so by the cataclysmic tsunami of hyperbolic catastrophising (see what I did there :wink:) around season 23/24. "total failure", "shambles", "inept", "clown from a pub league" etc etc.

Someone posted a iist of our finishing positions over the last 20 or 25 seasons on a thread a little while ago. 8th is pretty much our average. It wasn't a complete disaster. It was average. Disappointing, not as good as we'd hope for, below what our relative budget should produce, but not a disaster.

Some of what Montgomery did worked, too much of it didn't. Just like Johnson, Maloney, Ross and Heckingbottom before him.

Playing out from the back sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. The new coaching team will have their own ideas on how they want to play. If it involves a similar game style to the previous one then they should probably be looking at when and why it worked and when and why it didn't and then making minor adjustments to get it working more often.

How many times over the last 20 or 25 have years have we spent about £2 million on transfer fees in the summer, including £700k on one player alone? Surprised any fan wouldn’t describe last season as a complete disaster.

[McSwanky]

Such a high risk strategy when you have players who can't pass the ball accurately or control it properly.

Are there any stats on the number of goals we lost due to trying to play it out from the back? My gut feel is that this number far outweighs the number we scored using the same approach.

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[MWHIBBIES]

Such a high risk strategy when you have players who can't pass the ball accurately or control it properly.

Are there any stats on the number of goals we lost due to trying to play it out from the back? My gut feel is that this number far outweighs the number we scored using the same approach.

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It won't even be close. Can barely even think of us losing any from playing out last season. Vast majority of our goals and chances will have started from playing it out.

It looks risky, it is a bit, but hoofing it with the players we have would've been much worse.

[Chipper1875]

How many times over the last 20 or 25 have years have we spent about £2 million on transfer fees in the summer, including £700k on one player alone? Surprised any fan wouldn’t describe last season as a complete disaster.

Do you have a breakdown of who the players were that we spent £2 mill on . Also , who cost £700 k ?

[Steve-O]

I think the key to it is finding the right balance. The problem with forums like this and social media is the need to define things as good or bad, in reality most things will have good and bad, whether that’s discussing a style of play, a manager or a player.

It’s not as simple as playing out from the back = bad and going direct = good or vice versa.

Last season we tried it when it wasn’t on and with people who weren’t totally comfortable doing it but there was times it worked because the situation in the game at that moment meant it was the right time to do it.

In short, I hope we don’t abandon it, as you say, there’s pretty sound logic to it, I also hope we apply some more common sense to it though and recognise there’s a time and a place to go direct quicker.

Players need to get better at executing it.

It can be done. It is how Wellington Phoenix did well this season. At the start of the season I was definitely in the “stop fannying about!!!” mindset, but by the end I was pretty confident that even when it looked tight, we were gonna pass our way out of the pressure.

Clearly needs a lot of work on the training field so hopefully if we actually focus on it we’ll see the benefits.

Last season I didn’t see a huge amount of full Hibs games but our issues seemed to be not taking chances we made and also being defensively awful. I didn’t see a lot of urgency at the back, blocks being made, crosses being cut out…just teams chucking in crosses and getting free headers / shots.

[Steve-O]

How many times over the last 20 or 25 have years have we spent about £2 million on transfer fees in the summer, including £700k on one player alone? Surprised any fan wouldn’t describe last season as a complete disaster.

The one time we did spend that on a player we were absolutely garbage that season too. 2001/02.

[JohnM1875]

Do you have a breakdown of who the players were that we spent £2 mill on . Also , who cost £700 k ?

Vente was £700k. Reported as higher in some places. £300k for Youan and Levitt and then add in fees for Wollacott and Harbottle. We also would have paid a fee for Moriah-Welsh in Jan, though from Bournemouth so maybe not.

[McSwanky]

It won't even be close. Can barely even think of us losing any from playing out last season. Vast majority of our goals and chances will have started from playing it out.

It looks risky, it is a bit, but hoofing it with the players we have would've been much worse.

St Johnstone away springs to mind immediately. I'm sure there will be others.

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[The Modfather]

Players need to get better at executing it.

It can be done. It is how Wellington Phoenix did well this season. At the start of the season I was definitely in the “stop fannying about!!!” mindset, but by the end I was pretty confident that even when it looked tight, we were gonna pass our way out of the pressure.

Clearly needs a lot of work on the training field so hopefully if we actually focus on it we’ll see the benefits.

Last season I didn’t see a huge amount of full Hibs games but our issues seemed to be not taking chances we made and also being defensively awful. I didn’t see a lot of urgency at the back, blocks being made, crosses being cut out…just teams chucking in crosses and getting free headers / shots.

Hibs also have to take a fair share of the blame. Parachuting in rookie managers like Maloney and Montgomery mid season into dire and struggling teams mid season. Expecting them to have the experience to be pragmatic and use the limited tools they were handed to get the best out of them. A manager needs at least a summer to work with his team. How would Mowbray have got on if he was parachuted in mid season the season before he took over. Would he have survived to the summer or gone the same way as Maloney or Montgommery.

[Victor]

Germany and Italy have shown the benefits of playing out from the back, looking to draw the opposing team out, then finding the killer pass to a forward. Unfortunately in Scotland some teams never come out and our ability to find the killer pass was severely lacking. It might work in Europe, but not so sure of its benefits in Perth and Dingwall.


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[Brightside]

He should only continue with it if he can make it work. Majority of the time under Montgomery it was a total failure. You need to be committed, break lines and play passes with pace for it to work. We fannied about in defence too much.

It also only really works when a team press you. More often than not teams sit off us, especially at home.

It was working fine. We were incredibly wasteful in the final 3rd.

[BILLYHIBS]

Players need to get better at executing it.

It can be done. It is how Wellington Phoenix did well this season. At the start of the season I was definitely in the “stop fannying about!!!” mindset, but by the end I was pretty confident that even when it looked tight, we were gonna pass our way out of the pressure.

Clearly needs a lot of work on the training field so hopefully if we actually focus on it we’ll see the benefits.

Last season I didn’t see a huge amount of full Hibs games but our issues seemed to be not taking chances we made and also being defensively awful. I didn’t see a lot of urgency at the back, blocks being made, crosses being cut out…just teams chucking in crosses and getting free headers / shots.
Said all of last season the players didn’t look comfortable and looked as though they hadn’t been drilled thoroughly enough in Training was all too slow and predictable allowing the opposition to regroup and find their shape

Was looking forward to a more direct approach under SDG but would not rule out playing out from the back but we need to find the right personnel

Best examples of the genre as others have said Villa at home and Ange at Celtic
Citee no too bad as well

[andrew70]

We absolutely should keep this going. Very effective and if we get more clinical in the final third then we’ll be doing okay.

A complete overhaul of the front line will likely help us even though it seems daunting.

[Carheenlea]

The problem I had with the building from back routine was that it was the exact same movement every time. The same triangles, the same pass out wide and the same delivery. If you showed sillouettes of a passage of play from each club and you had to identify Hibs, then I’m confident every fan on here could pick out the Hibs one very quickly.

While it does work and the ball eventually gets out into wide areas, the biggest problem was our really poor delivery from those areas. Crosses that hardly got off the ground, hitting the defender, floating crosses that even if you got in the end of them you couldn’t get any power for the finish.

Having wide men who can deliver accurately and at power would make passing out from the back more dangerous than it stands at present.

[matty_f]

I think the key to it is finding the right balance. The problem with forums like this and social media is the need to define things as good or bad, in reality most things will have good and bad, whether that’s discussing a style of play, a manager or a player.

It’s not as simple as playing out from the back = bad and going direct = good or vice versa.

Last season we tried it when it wasn’t on and with people who weren’t totally comfortable doing it but there was times it worked because the situation in the game at that moment meant it was the right time to do it.

In short, I hope we don’t abandon it, as you say, there’s pretty sound logic to it, I also hope we apply some more common sense to it though and recognise there’s a time and a place to go direct quicker.

Pretty much agree with this. There are obvious benefits to the approach and when it works, it’s good to watch. I don’t want to watch a game of chess at the football though, where we just pass the ball waiting endlessly for the opposition to come out or make a mistake.

[Albert Kidd 86’]

The obvious difference watching their players and ours was the perfect control their olayers had when receiving the ball, so any press the opposition does is nullified because as soon as your defender receives the ball the control has already allowed the ball to automatically be at the correcr position to make the next pass. Thats quality players for you. Our defenders pass the ball incorrectly and take heavy touches regularly, which slows down any quick break and we cant change the pace.


i think it was scott brown who said the first training session after joining cellic from us was an Eye opener as their players smashed their passes at him, they expected their team mates to be able to control any ball passed to them and with one touch preferably.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Pretty much agree with this. There are obvious benefits to the approach and when it works, it’s good to watch. I don’t want to watch a game of chess at the football though, where we just pass the ball waiting endlessly for the opposition to come out or make a mistake.

I want to watch a team in the mould of Atalanta when they played Leverkusen. Literally sprinting backwards and forwards, not giving their opponent a chance to get comfortable. Heavy metal football if you like, battering the opponent into submission by closing everything down, moving at pace and being direct.

If a club like Atalanta with multi-million pound players can run themselves into the ground then so can we. That approach, in this league, should see us be successful. You don’t need footballing ability to be fit and to fight for everything, just a decent level of fitness and a good coach who can teach you to hunt in packs, close your man down and tell you where to be when you turn over possession.

[greenpaper55]

I want to watch a team in the mould of Atalanta when they played Leverkusen. Literally sprinting backwards and forwards, not giving their opponent a chance to get comfortable. Heavy metal football if you like, battering the opponent into submission by closing everything down, moving at pace and being direct.

If a club like Atalanta with multi-million pound players can run themselves into the ground then so can we. That approach, in this league, should see us be successful. You don’t need footballing ability to be fit and to fight for everything, just a decent level of fitness and a good coach who can teach you to hunt in packs, close your man down and tell you where to be when you turn over possession.

Exactly this, you never saw any Atalanta players strolling back after losing the ball, basic coaching i think ?

[MWHIBBIES]

Exactly this, you never saw any Atalanta players strolling back after losing the ball, basic coaching i think ?

Guy is a world class coach, and has excellent players.

If it was basic and easy everyone would do it.

Truth is, we'd never give a guy the time required to implement it either. First loss to a st Johnstone and wed be hounding him.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Guy is a world class coach, and has excellent players.

If it was basic and easy everyone would do it.

Truth is, we'd never give a guy the time required to implement it either. First loss to a st Johnstone and wed be hounding him.

Being able to run about for 90 minutes and closing down everything is basic. It comes down to desire and fitness.

If I saw a Hibs that chased, harried and battled for every single ball I would not be hounding out the manager or the players.

[Edina Street]

I read this article which suggests the one thing Gray should keep from Monty's time is building from the back as it works .

Maybe it does work though I felt last season at times we took unnecessary risks playing this way and probably done to much of it in games as well .

Just wondering what your thoughts on this are and is it something you can see gray continuing with?.


https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/why-new-hibs-boss-should-keep-at-least-one-element-of-monty-masterplan-4664549

Build from the back and defend from the front.

[MWHIBBIES]

Being able to run about for 90 minutes and closing down everything is basic. It comes down to desire and fitness.

If I saw a Hibs that chased, harried and battled for every single ball I would not be hounding out the manager or the players.

And months of conditioning work, and having a deep squad to rotate, and avoiding injury to key players. Then you need to coach them to fully understand when and how to press. It's different for every match. You don't just run at man with ball. Running for a full 90 minutes closing down is just dumb, no one does that.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

And months of conditioning work, and having a deep squad to rotate, and avoiding injury to key players. Then you need to coach them to fully understand when and how to press. It's different for every match. You don't just run at man with ball. Running for a full 90 minutes closing down is just dumb, no one does that.

We can respectfully disagree here.

[MWHIBBIES]

We can respectfully disagree here.

Okay.

But can I ask, if it's so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

[The Modfather]

Okay.

But can I ask, if it's so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

Partly because the current trend is slow, possession based football that focuses on all the wrong kind of stats, IMO, at all levels. Hibs would need to want to play like that, signing unathletic players like Levitt & Vente to play alongside players like Newell, JDH etc only allows us to play passive, slow, harmless posession football like every other team.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Okay.

But can I ask, if it's so easy, why doesn't everyone do it?

Nope

[MWHIBBIES]

Nope

Thought so.


Partly because the current trend is slow, possession based football that focuses on all the wrong kind of stats, IMO, at all levels. Hibs would need to want to play like that, signing unathletic players like Levitt & Vente to play alongside players like Newell, JDH etc only allows us to play passive, slow, harmless posession football like every other team.

I don't really disagree that football is focusing on a slower game but it doesn't really answer the question. It's not easy to play an aggressive pressing game, it requires as much coaching as a slow tactical game.

Klopp played an aggressive pressing game with guys like Firminho and Henderson. They are no more athletic than Newell or Vente. It's about coaching, when to press, how to press, who to press etc.

I'm all for Hibs playing like that, would be great, but it's very naive to think we can just do it overnight.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Thought so.



I don't really disagree that football is focusing on a slower game but it doesn't really answer the question. It's not easy to play an aggressive pressing game, it requires as much coaching as a slow tactical game.

Klopp played an aggressive pressing game with guys like Firminho and Henderson. They are no more athletic than Newell or Vente. It's about coaching, when to press, how to press, who to press etc.

I'm all for Hibs playing like that, would be great, but it's very naive to think we can just do it overnight.

Not really. I just choose not to spend my Sunday arguing with someone who cannot and will not accept anyone else’s opinion if it doesn’t align with yours. If I engage, I’ll end up in a relentless slog of a debate with you that won’t end until you either get the last word in or lose your internet connection. It’s actually exhausting.

I’ve got far better things to do with my time than let you gain a wee semi because you’ve successfully drained the life out of yet another poster on this site. It’s tiresome.

Respect difference, enjoy life.

[MWHIBBIES]

Not really. I just choose not to spend my Sunday arguing with someone who cannot and will not accept anyone else’s opinion if it doesn’t align with yours. If I engage, I’ll end up in a relentless slog of a debate with you that won’t end until you either get the last word in or lose your internet connection. It’s actually exhausting.

I’ve got far better things to do with my time than let you gain a wee semi because you’ve successfully drained the life out of yet another poster on this site. It’s tiresome.

Respect difference, enjoy life.

If you aren't capable of a football discussion, just say that, I don't mind. No need for the personal crap.

I'm absolutely delighted to accept anyone else's opinion. You know, if they can actually back it up and make a good point. Since you've made exactly zero of those, why would I just accept what you've said and not disagree.

Does make me laugh that you having a personal tirade against me like that is somehow seen as an acceptable alternative. Very mature.

Anyway, enjoy your Sunday :aok:

[Pedantic_Hibee]

If you aren't capable of a football discussion, just say that, I don't mind. No need for the personal crap.

I'm absolutely delighted to accept anyone else's opinion. You know, if they can actually back it up and make a good point. Since you've made exactly zero of those, why would I just accept what you've said and not disagree.

Anyway, enjoy your Sunday :aok:

Or you could just get on with your life and let things go rather than demanding everyone justifies themselves to you. Just a thought.

[MWHIBBIES]

Or you could just get on with your life and let things go rather than demanding everyone justifies themselves to you. Just a thought.

I'm demanding nothing. Do whatever you like. Don't take the huff if I or anyone else disagree with an utterly baseless opinion, though. That will happen anywhere.

And please don't break the rules by going on rants about me. It's weird and just gives admins more work.

[Donegal Hibby]

Building from the back is hopefully something that we will continue to do , while mixing it up at times as well too.

Probably unfair here though when Monty was manager it felt like even when it wasn't working we weren't going to change from it at times.

Grays first interview as manager is going to be very interesting in how he wants us to play . We already know about the non-negotiable's and wanting us to be harder to beat though style of play , formation etc will be good to hear from him .

[Paul1642]

Being able to run about for 90 minutes and closing down everything is basic. It comes down to desire and fitness.

If I saw a Hibs that chased, harried and battled for every single ball I would not be hounding out the manager or the players.

It’s a mentally that I would love to see from Hibs again and I have no doubt that when two team are not on their game, it’s the one that’s busts a gut for every ball that will win 9 times out of ten.

That said your average footballer can’t necessarily do it. There’s no point in doing the above just to have half the team completely burst after 60 minutes. John Collins tried to install the mentality in the team and the necessary extra fitness work to enable it. It was fantastic whilst it lasted but we all know how it ended, with a full on player revolt and we took 7 years to bounce back from that.

I blame the players for what happened rather than Collins but players hold the power and unless you gradually instil it over time and make all signings with that game plan in mind, the same result will happen.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

It’s a mentally that I would love to see from Hibs again and I have no doubt that when two team are not on their game, it’s the one that’s busts a gut for every ball that will win 9 times out of ten.

That said your average footballer can’t necessarily do it. There’s no point in doing the above just to have half the team completely burst after 60 minutes. John Collins tried to install the mentality in the team and the necessary extra fitness work to enable it. It was fantastic whilst it lasted but we all know how it ended, with a full on player revolt and we took 7 years to bounce back from that.

I blame the players for what happened rather than Collins but players hold the power and unless you gradually instil it over time and make all signings with that game plan in mind, the same result will happen.

100%. It’s not something we can do overnight, but we can build up to it. If we saw signs of it early doors we’d back it (any signs of progress would be welcome). You could tell within ten minutes of our first game with Mowbray what we were trying to do and we got behind it.

[McD]

And months of conditioning work, and having a deep squad to rotate, and avoiding injury to key players. Then you need to coach them to fully understand when and how to press. It's different for every match. You don't just run at man with ball. Running for a full 90 minutes closing down is just dumb, no one does that.


Thought so.



I don't really disagree that football is focusing on a slower game but it doesn't really answer the question. It's not easy to play an aggressive pressing game, it requires as much coaching as a slow tactical game.

Klopp played an aggressive pressing game with guys like Firminho and Henderson. They are no more athletic than Newell or Vente. It's about coaching, when to press, how to press, who to press etc.

I'm all for Hibs playing like that, would be great, but it's very naive to think we can just do it overnight.



I was going to mention Klopp, it took him three quarters of a season and a full preseason to instil the mentality, the awareness and the fitness levels in the Liverpool squad he took over.

It’s not easy to do, it needs the whole team switched on and moving in concert, and as you’ve said, when, how and who to press are critical, and when not to.

guardiola’s Barcelona side were also masters at it, they used to press incredibly aggressively for the first 2-3 passes of the opposition, then drop back into a more orthodox shape if they hadn’t won the ball back. It takes huge discipline and trust in your team mates.

[ancient hibee]

I read somewhere that only Celtic had better stats than us on “playing out from the back leading to successful attacks”.

[theonlywayisup]

Building from the back is okay if you have the players to deliver this style. IMO we don't have the midfield that creates space to receive the ball then retain possession and move it forward at pace. A whole new midfield is needed IMO. Sorting out the balance in midfield is the first thing SDG needs to sort out.

It's not like it hasn't been highlighted before :rolleyes:

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?358810-Midfield

[Brightside]

Partly because the current trend is slow, possession based football that focuses on all the wrong kind of stats, IMO, at all levels. Hibs would need to want to play like that, signing unathletic players like Levitt & Vente to play alongside players like Newell, JDH etc only allows us to play passive, slow, harmless posession football like every other team.

Its the trend coz players cannot run about at 100% for 90 mins. No teams do that. It has to be measured to allow recovery etc. And Vente is one of the last players id say was unathletic. His distance covered would have been above most in the majority of games.