What would Scottish Football be like without the OF?

[SaulGoodman]

An interesting read that I’ve “borrowed” from Reddit. A user has went back through history and tallied up league finishes and cup wins if the OF didn’t exist. It’s not an exact science, just a bit of fun. But a decent read nonetheless:



Reimagining Scottish Football History Without the Old Firm

I've done a simple exercise to see what Scottish football would look like if Rangers and Celtic had never existed. To come up with the trophy tallies, I've done the following:

1 - The highest placed team outside the Old Firm is the league champion

2 - Any team that lost a cup final to the Old Firm is awarded that trophy

3 - Where there was an Old Firm final, the semi-final loser to whichever of the Old Firm won the final wins the trophy

4 - In the case of the 1909 Scottish Cup, where the trophy wasn't awarded, I gave it to Clyde because they were higher in the league than the other losing semi-finalist, Falkirk.

As you might expect, Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs are Scottish football's big three, winning 152 out of 344 domestic trophies (44%). Motherwell and Dundee Utd account for another 51 trophies, with Kilmarnock, Dundee and even Airdrie having played a significant part in Scottish football history.

Hearts have won the most league titles with 29, but their best is a mere four in a row, a feat matched by Airdrie, Hibs (twice), Kilmarnock and Aberdeen. However, the record for consecutive titles goes to the sensational Motherwell team of the late 1920s and 1930s, winning eight consecutive titles along with two doubles. Aberdeen won 13 league titles out of 20 between 1976 and 1996.

Aberdeen are the cup kings, with 33 cup wins, ahead of Hearts (22), Hibs (21) and Dundee Utd (20). Lots of Scotland's smaller clubs have enjoyed several days in the sun, and even minnows Cowdenbeath, Montrose and Forfar won League Cups in the 1970s, with Queen of the South winning the 2008 Scottish Cup.

Aberdeen have secured three trebles, in 1990, 1993 and 2017, and who can forget the sensational St Johnstone treble of 1999, which is often confused with Man Utd's lesser treble the same year.

The 2023-2024 season finished with Hearts comfortably winning their 29th league title, while Aberdeen completed a domestic cup double.

League & Scottish Cup doubles: Aberdeen (4), Hearts (4), Motherwell (2), Third Lanark (2), Airdrie (1), Clyde (1), Dundee Utd (1), Hibs (1)

League & League Cup doubles: Aberdeen (4), Hearts (3), Dundee Utd (2), Hibs (2), Kilmarnock (1)

Scottish Cup & League Cup doubles: Aberdeen (4), Motherwell (3), Dundee Utd (2), Clyde (1), East Fife (1), St Johnstone (1)

Trebles: Aberdeen (3), St Johnstone (1)


Unfortunately can’t share the direct images, however here’s a link to the thread

https://www.reddit.com/r/ScottishFootball/s/TrAvuKI8Gv

[Carheenlea]

Would be good if we could get rid of Hearts as well!

[J-C]

Better and more competitive

[easty]

More competitive but with with worse football.

We'd end up with Irish league standard of footballers.

[greenginger]

I could live with the Old Firm ( what’s with this OLD anyway ? Hibs were playing derbies against Hearts for 10 years before the lesser greens crawled out from under a rock ).

What is needed is fair and honest refereeing and unbiased coverage from national media. Impossible you say, ok , wind the pair up and make Partick Thistle the Weegie giant :greengrin

[Since452]

Would be great. Imagine the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc going for the league. Stadiums would be packed and capacity probably need to be increased. I would happily watch players of lesser quality if i saw the chances of my team winning things massively increase. Couldn't care less about the TV deal either.

[Jones28]

So we still had a **** season? :aok:

[hibstag]

Would be great. Imagine the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc going for the league. Stadiums would be packed and capacity probably need to be increased. I would happily watch players of lesser quality if i saw the chances of my team winning things massively increase. Couldn't care less about the TV deal either.
I think the quality of player would be similar to the late eighties and early nineties in Scotland, foreign players would be attracted to the Scottish game to win things, play in Europe. Success and increased revenue would help retain players. Interest in our football would be up, if 12,000 watch Hibs now how many would watch a title chasing team, how big would a tv deal be for competitive fixtures all season

[son of haggart]

You would also have to add in that we would have non OF teams competing regularly in the Champions and europa leagues, with the added revenue and exposure that brings. Prize and media money could be shared out more fairly, supporting grass roots football, and with less of a wage diferential it would be harder for the nbetter teams to nick the poorer teams best players.

[marinello59]

I think the quality of player would be similar to the late eighties and early nineties in Scotland, foreign players would be attracted to the Scottish game to win things, play in Europe. Success and increased revenue would help retain players. Interest in our football would be up, if 12,000 watch Hibs now how many would watch a title chasing team, how big would a tv deal be for competitive fixtures all season

If that were true the League of Ireland would be thriving. Foreign players would still struggle to look beyond the big two who would probably attract an even bigger following across the whole of Scotland as the only big league teams in the country. Like it or not the current TV deals depend on the Old Firm, without them we would be seen as a footballing backwater.

[Rumble de Thump]

If that were true the League of Ireland would be thriving. Foreign players would still struggle to look beyond the big two who would probably attract an even bigger following across the whole of Scotland as the only big league teams in the country. Like it or not the current TV deals depend on the Old Firm, without them we would be seen as a footballing backwater.

The current TV deal relies on the Old Firm because that's the situation that's been manufactured by the people running the game in Scotland. It's been disastrously managed over the decades, shortsightedly benfiting two teams and their hangers on at the expense of all others. Without them, and with half decent management of the game, all aspects of our competitions would have the chance to greatly improve.

[marinello59]

The current TV deal relies on the Old Firm because that's the situation that's been manufactured by the people running the game in Scotland. It's been disastrously managed over the decades, shortsightedly benfiting two teams and their hangers on at the expense of all others. Without them, and with half decent management of the game, all aspects of our competitions would have the chance to greatly improve.

We reform it with Old Firm still in the league. . Trying to sell a national league to a broadcaster when the two teams with the largest number of potential viewers aren’t in it isn’t a strong bargaining position.

[Hibbyradge]

Would be great. Imagine the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc going for the league. Stadiums would be packed and capacity probably need to be increased. I would happily watch players of lesser quality if i saw the chances of my team winning things massively increase. Couldn't care less about the TV deal either.

What would it be like if Hearts were 20 points ahead of us at the top with the next best team being Kilmarnock, followed by St Mirren and Dundee?

What this season would have been like with worse players?

[Hibbyradge]

You would also have to add in that we would have non OF teams competing regularly in the Champions and europa leagues, with the added revenue and exposure that brings. Prize and media money could be shared out more fairly, supporting grass roots football, and with less of a wage diferential it would be harder for the nbetter teams to nick the poorer teams best players.

We'd eventually be reduced to one qualifying slot for the CL etc.

[Craig_HFC]

27913

[Hibbyradge]

27913

Where are the unicorns?

They promised us unicorns.

[KWJ]

It'd maybe take a hit but the Scottish and Irish leagues wouldn't be comparable IMO as Scottish clubs would still have far bigger fanbases leading to higher matchday income and more money. I think he'd be more akin to the Swedish league.

You'd have to think though that Partick Thistle and Queen's Park would become powerhouses by soaking up the Glasgow fanbase.

[Joe6-2]

Would love to find out

[Hibbyradge]

It'd maybe take a hit but the Scottish and Irish leagues wouldn't be comparable IMO as Scottish clubs would still have far bigger fanbases leading to higher matchday income and more money. I think he'd be more akin to the Swedish league.

You'd have to think though that Partick Thistle and Queen's Park would become powerhouses by soaking up the Glasgow fanbase.

It would depend on what happened to Rantic. If they went to England, they'd take their fans with them which would probably increase.

If they disappeared without trace, the remaining Glasgow teams would likely benefit and if that happened to any great extent, the TV companies might start to get interested again.

[cubehindthegoal]

We'd eventually be reduced to one qualifying slot for the CL etc.

We currently effectively have zero CL places for non-OF teams.

I think it would work in Scotland, but will only happen when forced to happen, ie, if and when OF moved to English league for example. And even then there’d be a few clubs wanting the rantic reserves to be included in our league 🙄

[marinello59]

We currently effectively have zero CL places for non-OF teams.

I think it would work in Scotland, but will only happen when forced to happen, ie, if and when OF moved to English league for example. And even then there’d be a few clubs wanting the rantic reserves to be included in our league 🙄

I think the chances of the Old Firm moving to England are less than zero. They’re neither needed or wanted down South.

[Hibiza]

Less violent.

[Hibbyradge]

I think the chances of the Old Firm moving to England are less than zero. They’re neither needed or wanted down South.

I don't think there's much of a chance they'd move, but if Sky wanted it to happen, there's every chance it would.

[Alfred E Newman]

You would also have to add in that we would have non OF teams competing regularly in the Champions and europa leagues, with the added revenue and exposure that brings. Prize and media money could be shared out more fairly, supporting grass roots football, and with less of a wage diferential it would be harder for the nbetter teams to nick the poorer teams best players.

Unfortunately the teams that were competing more regularly in the Champions League, in this scenario, Hearts, Aberdeen , would pull further away from the rest with their extra wealth and you could find yourself back at square one.

[Hibees1973]

Dead.

[sambajustice]

Amateur

[McD]

Would be great. Imagine the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc going for the league. Stadiums would be packed and capacity probably need to be increased. I would happily watch players of lesser quality if i saw the chances of my team winning things massively increase. Couldn't care less about the TV deal either.



Yep, a league with the chance of few teams winning it, much more competitive.

And (virtually) zero sectarian and republican bull****

[Eyrie]

A much nicer place.

Let's do it.

[Malthibby]

Would love to find out

Me too, they're like a sub-lethal infection (think tapeworm) which feeds off Scottish football and leaves it too
weak to move on and change.

[DH1875]

We need to take the blinkers off. In 90% of pro leagues there are a couple of teams who dominate their league. While no doubt celtic and rangers leaving would probably be great for us it would make sod all difference to 90% of the other Scottish teams. In fact if anything they'd probably lose out on the deal.Your just replacing celtic and rangers with Hibs and hearts and maybe Aberdeen. Like I said, great for us but not for Scottish football.

[Paul1642]

Whilst it would be nice for a very short time, the decline would be rapid.

[Phil MaGlass]

Great for Scottish fitba, I would welcome it as would thousands of others,none of the bigot brothers,nae bendin over fae the SFA or SPFL all the time. Excellent, more chance ro win a trophy or two, new rules could be put in place regarding investment, maybe wage caps, size of leagues, amount that can be spent on buying players so that teams like Hibs,hertz or Dons couldnt pull miles away from the rest as it has been with the glesga two for decades. We can then get on and properly promote Scottish fitba as its supposed to he promoted. F, the glesga two.

[Eyrie]

We need to take the blinkers off. In 90% of pro leagues there are a couple of teams who dominate their league. While no doubt celtic and rangers leaving would probably be great for us it would make sod all difference to 90% of the other Scottish teams. In fact if anything they'd probably lose out on the deal.Your just replacing celtic and rangers with Hibs and hearts and maybe Aberdeen. Like I said, great for us but not for Scottish football.

I'd disagree.

Every season there are one or two teams that do better than at least one of Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen. Last season there were three with Kilmarnock, St Mirren and Dundee all finishing above Hibs and Aberdeen.

So it would be more competitive.

[cubehindthegoal]

I'd disagree.

Every season there are one or two teams that do better than at least one of Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen. Last season there were three with Kilmarnock, St Mirren and Dundee all finishing above Hibs and Aberdeen.

So it would be more competitive.

And less bigoted.

[Greencore]

27913

This was my first thought reading the title

[BlackSheep]

It would take a bit of time but eventually it would be a benefit to not have the OF… after a few seasons of more competitive league and cup competitions, fans of all clubs would be back in the stands, watching them compete for prizes…. Financially clubs would benefit from better ticket sales, bigger prize monies…
The old firm suck the money and life out of a lot of clubs and fans are tired of competing for 3rd….
Sure, in the short term we may lose decent tv deals and some sponsorships but over time the league would prosper.

[gbhibby]

Bigot Free

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its all very nice .... but the massive elephant in the room is where the Uglies would be playing while all this is happening.

For a century it's been hard to keep kids in all parts of Scotland out of the clutches of the arse cheeks. Now we also have the most successful league in the world next door attracting kids away from our domestic game.

If the Uglies were playing in the English leagues it would be a double whammy. The papers and TV, who already give them wall to wall coverage, would be absolutely wetting themselves.

Over time they would totally and utterly dominate the Scottish football scene and the rest of us would be no more than a footnote. If you think it's bad now it would be nothing ... nothing ... compared to what it would be like if they were in the EPL They would have to increase the capacity of Celtic park and Ibrox to about 80,000.

I don't even think the 'wait till they start losing' scenario would work any more. Most EPL grounds are rammed every weekend, even though over half of them have about as much chance of winning the league as we do.

The only way this would work is if both clubs ceased to exist.