Learning from Malky Mackay appointment

[Albert Kidd 86’]

Liam of the Hibs Observer made a good point last night regarding Malky Mackay, ie, as supporters we are left in a strange position because we all love Hibs to the core, the club is a big part of who we are. But, we do not have any say in who gets hired or fired.

We are therefore left in a strange and uncomfortable position when a person is hired who does not match our own ideals outside football.

i agree with him, it has left me feeling awkward, when trying to defend the hiring of MM to my mates, as my default has always been to back the club whatever.

But on the other hand, it turns out his hiring to the club I love has made me do some soul searching to my own reactions towards anyone who does not line up with my own moral compass.

This, it turns out is an unexpected positive, because it has reinforced the thought that holding grudges is not a healthy pastime, and I am trying to learn to let them go and move on.

I reckon that he did something wrong, has recognised this, and taken action to learn from his mistake.

If more people took this path to redemption, the world would be a more pleasant place.

I will asses him on what he brings to Hibs in footballing terms only.

[Brooster]

Well said. I'm only interested wether he can do a job at Hibs or not. What he said in a private text 10 years ago doesn't bother me.

[Doh Rae Me]

Well said.
He comes across just fine in the recent interviews I've watched regarding his new job at Hibs. I just hope he's up to the mammoth task ahead.

[Jones28]

I was pretty disgusted when he was appointed to the SFA position and if I’d been asked prior to his appointment here what I thought I’d have outright rejected him.

But that was ignorance on my part for not knowing the steps he’s taken in the 10 years that have passed since those messages were sent. The way he spoke in his interview was great and he addressed the first question in a way that almost seemed like he just wants to be allowed to get on with his life and I can understand that.

David Martindale seems to have largely been forgiven by the vast majority of Scottish football for doing something far worse (in my opinion at least). There’s been numerous points made by folk in the big MM thread who were directly referred to in those messages and I can’t make my mind up if as to how I’d feel if I were in their shoes. Id like to think I’d be able to forgive and forget if someone has shown enough contrition and having been on the end of race related bullying as a kid I can remember the feelings of total unfairness at it. It was almost despair. If I met the people who bullied me I don’t know if I could forgive them, but if they’d been apologetic for what they did then maybe I would?

Having heard his interviews and the things he’s done since ultimately I want success for Hibs on the park and if the club think he’s the best man for the role then I back their judgement.

[Not In The Know]

Very well said.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I was pretty disgusted when he was appointed to the SFA position and if I’d been asked prior to his appointment here what I thought I’d have outright rejected him.

But that was ignorance on my part for not knowing the steps he’s taken in the 10 years that have passed since those messages were sent. The way he spoke in his interview was great and he addressed the first question in a way that almost seemed like he just wants to be allowed to get on with his life and I can understand that.

David Martindale seems to have largely been forgiven by the vast majority of Scottish football for doing something far worse (in my opinion at least). There’s been numerous points made by folk in the big MM thread who were directly referred to in those messages and I can’t make my mind up if as to how I’d feel if I were in their shoes. Id like to think I’d be able to forgive and forget if someone has shown enough contrition and having been on the end of race related bullying as a kid I can remember the feelings of total unfairness at it. It was almost despair. If I met the people who bullied me I don’t know if I could forgive them, but if they’d been apologetic for what they did then maybe I would?

Having heard his interviews and the things he’s done since ultimately I want success for Hibs on the park and if the club think he’s the best man for the role then I back their judgement.

Good post. I’ve mellowed a bit on the subject. I fall into the folk you mention in your third paragraph.

He’s apologised, he’s taking steps to change his way of thinking, he can’t do much more. On a personal level, I know I would still be extremely wary of him and due to that, I probably would still give him a wide berth, but I don’t need to deal with him on a personal level.

Hopefully he does a good job.

[BILLYHIBS]

I was pretty disgusted when he was appointed to the SFA position and if I’d been asked prior to his appointment here what I thought I’d have outright rejected him.

But that was ignorance on my part for not knowing the steps he’s taken in the 10 years that have passed since those messages were sent. The way he spoke in his interview was great and he addressed the first question in a way that almost seemed like he just wants to be allowed to get on with his life and I can understand that.

David Martindale seems to have largely been forgiven by the vast majority of Scottish football for doing something far worse (in my opinion at least). There’s been numerous points made by folk in the big MM thread who were directly referred to in those messages and I can’t make my mind up if as to how I’d feel if I were in their shoes. Id like to think I’d be able to forgive and forget if someone has shown enough contrition and having been on the end of race related bullying as a kid I can remember the feelings of total unfairness at it. It was almost despair. If I met the people who bullied me I don’t know if I could forgive them, but if they’d been apologetic for what they did then maybe I would?

Having heard his interviews and the things he’s done since ultimately I want success for Hibs on the park and if the club think he’s the best man for the role then I back their judgement.
Good post

Has shown remorse got himself educated and I would say zero chance of a repeat performance and has reached out to the communities he offended no charges were brought by the FA and he has since been employed by Wigan the SFA and Ross County

Everyone deserves a second chance we need to give him the benefit of the doubt and move on to what he can do for Hibernian FC as he has a massive job ahead of him

He has my total and undivided support

GGTTH

[WestCoastHibby]

They’ve hired Malky Mackay not Vladimir Putin
Can we all just get on with it now?

[Wilson]

They’ve hired Malky Mackay not Vladimir Putin
Can we all just get on with it now?

Quite an ignorant post. Fortunately folk have provided greater insight into the issue on other threads...

[Greensunshine]

I’ll judge him on the work he does as of the 1st of June.

People need to let things go ffs! We’ve got plenty other things to be getting on with.

[Wilson]

I’ll judge him on the work he does as of the 1st of June.

People need to let things go ffs! We’ve got plenty other things to be getting on with.

Yeah. And there's plenty of other threads discussing them.

It's an uncomfortable subject, I'll grant you, but it is relevant. I think the discussion has been reasonable and healthy.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I’ll judge him on the work he does as of the 1st of June.

People need to let things go ffs! We’ve got plenty other things to be getting on with.

It’s nobody else’s place to tell those who have been impacted personally by racism, or even just those who deplore it, to just ‘let things go’.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Hibs played Stoke City in a friendly in 1976. During that game a young lad called Garth Crooks ran us ragged and IIRC scored the only goal. During that game the 16 year old Nae Nookie shouted some things at that super young player that at the very least would have gotten me ejected from any UK stadium if it had happened today.

OK I'm now 64 years old, but to this day I'm still ashamed of how I acted that night and I have to believe that if I can be like that then so can the likes of Malky McKay.

As others have said, this guy has had 3 employers since the incident concerned with absolutely no sign that his regret over what he did isn't genuine. Fans of other clubs will make hay while this particular sun shines because that's what football fans do, but the ones who will have histories of their own that hardly give them carte blanche to be casting the first stone.

Given the obvious potential for adverse publicity this appointment had I highly doubt Hibs gave it anything less than due diligence before employing him. Now it's time to judge the guy on the job he does, not his past.

[neil7908]

It’s nobody else’s place to tell those who have been impacted personally by racism, or even just those who deplore it, to just ‘let things go’.

Yup. There have been some good, nuanced views on here but also a large number that are a couple of steps away from branding anyone with worries about the appointment as woke snowflakes who are somehow in the wrong for not being part of a racist WhatsApp group that is really just light hearted banter.

I also think there are implications for the clubs stance and messaging around discrimination and what actions we should take against say a fan who gets in trouble for making homophobic, racist or sexist remarks.

[TrinityHFC]

Yup. There have been some good, nuanced views on here but also a large number that are a couple of steps away from branding anyone with worries about the appointment as woke snowflakes who are in the wrong for not being part of a racist WhatsApp group that is really just light hearted banter.

I also think there are implications for the clubs stance and messaging around discrimination and what actions we should take against say a fan who gets in trouble for making homophobic, racist or sexist remarks.

There’s no implications at all. Those people should continue to be dealt with in the usual way.

Nothing wrong with having concerns about what he has done but what is the risk? It has happened, he’s shown no signs of behaving that way towards anyone and he’s already been appointed. There’s been a few public grumbles and he will now get on with his job.

[I'm Spartacus]

Debating this in work, the debate ended when I asked to see the group chat content of the guys in the office.

I mean, it's not great PR because of the pile on by the hypocrits, and I do think there must have been other options, but at the end of the day, for me there's only one man I want our club to have zero connection with, and it's not Malky Mackay.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Yup. There have been some good, nuanced views on here but also a large number that are a couple of steps away from branding anyone with worries about the appointment as woke snowflakes who are somehow in the wrong for not being part of a racist WhatsApp group that is really just light hearted banter.

I also think there are implications for the clubs stance and messaging around discrimination and what actions we should take against say a fan who gets in trouble for making homophobic, racist or sexist remarks.

Well, unless you are prepared to think that his appointment means the club's 2ero tolerance approach to such things has, or needs to, change there shouldn't be any implications. Any fan who thinks a door has opened to allow such behaviour will find themselves sadly mistaken.

I have never been a fan of lifetime bans for indiscretions within Easter Road, short of an actual physical attack on a player. I do believe that an opportunity should be given for rehabilitation and lessons to be learned and second chances afforded on the back of that and as I've said before Hibs are the 4th employer to accept McKay has learned his lesson, not the first.

[hibsbollah]

Well, unless you are prepared to think that his appointment means the club's 2ero tolerance approach to such things has, or needs to, change there shouldn't be any implications. Any fan who thinks a door has opened to allow such behaviour will find themselves sadly mistaken.

I have never been a fan of lifetime bans for indiscretions within Easter Road, short of an actual physical attack on a player. I do believe that an opportunity should be given for rehabilitation and lessons to be learned and second chances afforded on the back of that and as I've said before Hibs are the 4th employer to accept McKay has learned his lesson, not the first.

I think what neil is getting at is if you extend the principle that ‘everyone is entitled to be rehabilitated for appalling, repeated racism’ especially if you say sorry and do a wee training course afterwards, calling for a lifetime ban from the ground for a fan shouting something in the heat of the moment, might be a wee bit, errr…

hypocritical? (that word again)

[Hibbyradge]

I think what neil is getting at is if you extend the principle that ‘everyone is entitled to be rehabilitated for appalling, repeated racism’ especially if you say sorry and do a wee training course afterwards, calling for a lifetime ban from the ground for a fan shouting something in the heat of the moment, might be a wee bit, errr…

hypocritical? (that word again)

I may have missed the point, but has anyone calling for lifetime bans? :dunno:

One of the reasons people display racist, homophobic and/or sexist behaviour is a lack of education about those issues.

If you're entirely surrounded with people exactly like you, unless you learn about the people who are outside of your circle, fears and bigotries are almost inevitable.

Malky McKay didn't just go on "a wee training course", he undertook an extensive programme of education. That should be applauded rather than downplayed. There won't be many people with football banning orders for racism who will have done that, but they'll be allowed back eventually.

Regardless of what a person may have done to wrong me, if they are genuinely remorseful and apologise, I know that I would forgive them.

You asked me if Hibs could have made an appointment which would have been less divisive, or words to that effect. Of course they could have given someone else the job, but I don't want leaders who avoid taking difficult decisions for an easy life.

If the board believe that McKay brings the necessary skills and attributes, then they are right to have appointed him.

[WestCoastHibby]

I’ll make this my last point on the matter as we have to accept what’s done is done and we all need to move on.
In general we seem to have a societal problem that people aren’t happy unless they are taking offence or a moral high ground.
Michael O’Neal is often touted as a Hibs managerial candidate. I hope if he is appointed people will be as equally outraged at someone caught well over the drink drive limit a few years back?? He had the potential to kill innocent third parties that night.
Not cause faux offence on a dodgy group chat

[hibsbollah]

I may have missed the point, but has anyone calling for lifetime bans? :dunno:

One of the reasons people display racist, homophobic and/or sexist behaviour is a lack of education about those issues.

If you're entirely surrounded with people exactly like you, unless you learn about the people who are outside of your circle, fears and bigotries are almost inevitable.

Malky McKay didn't just go on "a wee training course", he undertook an extensive programme of education. That should be applauded rather than downplayed. There won't be many people with football banning orders for racism who will have done that, but they'll be allowed back eventually.

Regardless of what a person may have done to wrong me, if they are genuinely remorseful and apologise, I know that I would forgive them.

You asked me if Hibs could have made an appointment which would have been less divisive, or words to that effect. Of course they could have given someone else the job, but I don't want leaders who avoid taking difficult decisions for an easy life.

If the board believe that McKay brings the necessary skills and attributes, then they are right to have appointed him.

On the thread about the fan at the Ross County game, there were at least two posts saying he should get a lifetime ban for abusing the player. I didnt notice if it was the same or different posters that were talking about the wonderful power of education and réhabilitationin relation to MM, and I dont really have a view about what should happen to the dude either way, im just pointing it out. Its for others to decide if something is fair or consistent.

[Superfurry72]

Well said. I'm only interested wether he can do a job at Hibs or not. What he said in a private text 10 years ago doesn't bother me.

The things is, they weren't all private texts. He sent a racist 'joke' around the staff at Cardiff City. I know that if I did that in my job, I'd be sacked and I'd be very surprised if taking a training course on what I did wrong would allow me to return to any place of employment within my industry.

As I said in my posts earlier this week, he was a 42-year-old man who had been working in football for years, not some stupid wee laddie. Why did he need to take a course to stop him being a horrible bigot?

I think it's perfectly reasonable to question this decision by Hibs and not have it referred to as 'faux outrage' (as I've seen numerous times). I'm not sure his CV has warranted the hassle but here we are.

[Superfurry72]

I’ll make this my last point on the matter as we have to accept what’s done is done and we all need to move on.
In general we seem to have a societal problem that people aren’t happy unless they are taking offence or a moral high ground.
Michael O’Neal is often touted as a Hibs managerial candidate. I hope if he is appointed people will be as equally outraged at someone caught well over the drink drive limit a few years back?? He had the potential to kill innocent third parties that night.
Not cause faux offence on a dodgy group chat

Why is it 'faux offence' in your opinion? Do people not have a right to be offended by the frankly horrendous language he used?

[Superfurry72]

Debating this in work, the debate ended when I asked to see the group chat content of the guys in the office.

I mean, it's not great PR because of the pile on by the hypocrits, and I do think there must have been other options, but at the end of the day, for me there's only one man I want our club to have zero connection with, and it's not Malky Mackay.

So you think everyone who objects is a hypocrite? How so? Do you think everyone who has complained have themselves made racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-semitic comments on group chats?

An uncomfortably large amount of people on here are indeed hinting that they have indulged in similar types of behaviour in what they consider to be a humorous way, and they appear to be the ones unanimously backing Mackay's appointment rather the ones upset about it. Do you think the others, myself included, are being dishonest?

[Doh Rae Me]

Hibs played Stoke City in a friendly in 1976. During that game a young lad called Garth Crooks ran us ragged and IIRC scored the only goal. During that game the 16 year old Nae Nookie shouted some things at that super young player that at the very least would have gotten me ejected from any UK stadium if it had happened today.

OK I'm now 64 years old, but to this day I'm still ashamed of how I acted that night and I have to believe that if I can be like that then so can the likes of Malky McKay.

As others have said, this guy has had 3 employers since the incident concerned with absolutely no sign that his regret over what he did isn't genuine. Fans of other clubs will make hay while this particular sun shines because that's what football fans do, but the ones who will have histories of their own that hardly give them carte blanche to be casting the first stone.

Given the obvious potential for adverse publicity this appointment had I highly doubt Hibs gave it anything less than due diligence before employing him. Now it's time to judge the guy on the job he does, not his past.
I applaud your post and whole heartedly agree
:not worth

[TrinityHFC]

So you think everyone who objects is a hypocrite? How so? Do you think everyone who has complained have themselves made racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-semitic comments on group chats?

An uncomfortably large amount of people on here are indeed hinting that they have indulged in similar types of behaviour in what they consider to be a humorous way, and they appear to be the ones unanimously backing Mackay's appointment rather the ones upset about it. Do you think the others, myself included, are being dishonest?

So you think the world is split into bad people who support the appointment a good people who don't.

Suggest you get real - and honest.

[Jim44]

I applaud your post and whole heartedly agree
:not worth

I second that but I have worrying reservations about the block 7 folk who, despite double standards, won’t let go and will cause toxic atmospheres in every game. Whether the club could or should rethink the appointment is not viable and I hope things settle down to enable the team to get us back to the place we should be every season.

[eastmainsmsh]

I think Malky will do well liked him as a player and did well in English leagues
What happened is in past and he has acknowledged his mistake

[Iain G]

It feels like we are regressing, back to the drudgery of Scottish football for our appointments, where is the excitement, that foreign manager, that unknown, that sparkle of the je ne sais pas, the frisson of things to come, a renewed hope and enthusiasm, that cup winner from exotic shores that are not ours, that in depth talk of football philosophy and the new Pep...

[erin go bragh]

It feels like we are regressing, back to the drudgery of Scottish football for our appointments, where is the excitement, that foreign manager, that unknown, that sparkle of the je ne sais pas, the frisson of things to come, a renewed hope and enthusiasm, that cup winner from exotic shores that are not ours, that in depth talk of football philosophy and the new Pep...

We just tried that League winner from exotic shores with a couple of foreign coaches thrown in and it failed miserably.
Maybe time to get someone in that knows the Scottish game and as a sporting dof. Maybe MM will be the person to finally get us a manager that ticks all the boxes.
And yes the op, is bang on with its better to let any grudges go because after all, who has never made a mistake in life.

[Superfurry72]

So you think the world is split into bad people who support the appointment a good people who don't.

Suggest you get real - and honest.

You seem to frequently misunderstand and misrepresent my posts, as you have done again. Earlier this week you accused me of hypocrisy regarding all of this because I like The Office!

In what way am I being dishonest? I'm all ears.

[Ship of Hope]

So you think everyone who objects is a hypocrite? How so? Do you think everyone who has complained have themselves made racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-semitic comments on group chats?

An uncomfortably large amount of people on here are indeed hinting that they have indulged in similar types of behaviour in what they consider to be a humorous way, and they appear to be the ones unanimously backing Mackay's appointment rather the ones upset about it. Do you think the others, myself included, are being dishonest?

you must live the perfect life if you have never offended anyone or made a mistake that requires another persons forgiveness. I suspect you are being dishonest mostly with yourself. It is really easy to espouse a set of values but much harder to live them. Most, if not all of us will have slipped below the standards we set for ourself but probably rarely judge our own indiscretions as harshly as those of others. It is interesting topic as to whether or not you can legitimately make a joke about these subjects. Having recently watched the Jimmy Carr stand up on netflix the reaction of the audience would appear to suggest you can. Whilst I regard myself as someone that accepts others openly I still don’t think I am in a position to throw the first stone. I hope Malky does a brilliant job and we see the benefit on the pitch. His enthusiasm when asked if he was looking forward to getting started at hibs during an interview was hard to deny and filled me with hope.

[Lago]

:top marks
you must live the perfect life if you have never offended anyone or made a mistake that requires another persons forgiveness. I suspect you are being dishonest mostly with yourself. It is really easy to espouse a set of values but much harder to live them. Most, if not all of us will have slipped below the standards we set for ourself but probably rarely judge our own indiscretions as harshly as those of others. It is interesting topic as to whether or not you can legitimately make a joke about these subjects. Having recently watched the Jimmy Carr stand up on netflix the reaction of the audience would appear to suggest you can. Whilst I regard myself as someone that accepts others openly I still don’t think I am in a position to throw the first stone. I hope Malky does a brilliant job and we see the benefit on the pitch. His enthusiasm when asked if he was looking forward to getting started at hibs during an interview was hard to deny and filled me with hope.

[Superfurry72]

you must live the perfect life if you have never offended anyone or made a mistake that requires another persons forgiveness. I suspect you are being dishonest mostly with yourself. It is really easy to espouse a set of values but much harder to live them. Most, if not all of us will have slipped below the standards we set for ourself but probably rarely judge our own indiscretions as harshly as those of others. It is interesting topic as to whether or not you can legitimately make a joke about these subjects. Having recently watched the Jimmy Carr stand up on netflix the reaction of the audience would appear to suggest you can. Whilst I regard myself as someone that accepts others openly I still don’t think I am in a position to throw the first stone. I hope Malky does a brilliant job and we see the benefit on the pitch. His enthusiasm when asked if he was looking forward to getting started at hibs during an interview was hard to deny and filled me with hope.

I am not saying I live the perfect life, and I'm sure I've offended people in the past. I know I have, even if I've done my best not to. As I've had to state frequently, this is all about context. Regarding Mackay, it's a 42-year-old man (as he was then) who'd been around the football world since he was a teenager having to undergo training to learn how not to be a horrible bigot. I find it inconceivable that Malky Mackay did not know that type of language was incredibly offensive.

I am not alone in saying this makes me uncomfortable about his appointment. And in that context, there are lots of posts flying around here where people are saying 'if we're being honest we've all said those kind of things in private messages...' etc when I can honestly, hand on heart, say to the best of my knowledge that as an adult I've not indulged that type of behaviour (there's the context, we all say stupid things growing up, which I'll readily confess to). And I certainly have gone nowhere near where Mackay went.

I think it's actually sad that people find that hard to believe. I think it says a lot.

[Ship of Hope]

I am not saying I live the perfect life, and I'm sure I've offended people in the past. I know I have, even if I've done my best not to. As I've had to state frequently, this is all about context. Regarding Mackay, it's a 42-year-old man (as he was then) who'd been around the football world since he was a teenager having to undergo training to learn how not to be a horrible bigot. I find it inconceivable that Malky Mackay did not know that type of language was incredibly offensive.

I am not alone in saying this makes me uncomfortable about his appointment. And in that context, there are lots of posts flying around here where people are saying 'if we're being honest we've all said those kind of things in private messages...' etc when I can honestly, hand on heart, say to the best of my knowledge that as an adult I've not indulged that type of behaviour (there's the context, we all say stupid things growing up, which I'll readily confess to). And I certainly have gone nowhere near where Mackay went.

I think it's actually sad that people find that hard to believe. I think it says a lot.


i think you are correct when you say it is all about context. On another non hibs specific interview about the role of the DOF the interviewer spoke about Malkys indiscretions and he said something along the lines of.. you had over 70,000 whats app messages and x thousand of emails scrutinised and you were asked to apologise for 3. I don’t doubt there were probably more that people found offensive for a variety of reasons, but not widely regarded as meeting the threshold for requiring a public apology or requiring rehabilitation. Again, most if not all of us make mistakes or offend others even from the ripe old age of 42. Malky made inappropriate comments 10 years ago, has apologised, re-educated himself, changed his behaviour and moved forward. I am saddened that you have not been able to do likewise and your opinion of the man is outdated and you have become stuck in the past.

[Logie]

Where was all this uproar from our fans when he got a job with the SFA? Aw aye no one was interested. The guy said some disgusting things 10 years ago that are offensive, of that there is no doubt. That is understood but he’s also done what he could to learn from it and be a better person. Joelle Murray has spoken pretty nicely about him today and our club has brought him in. He’s not going anywhere we need to support him and the club and based on his interview I watched I think he will give the job everything which is what we really need. Everyone makes mistakes some worse than others, would like to think we are a club that gives second chances to people who can add value. We have certainly done it with plenty players….

[hibeerealist]

You seem to frequently misunderstand and misrepresent my posts, as you have done again. Earlier this week you accused me of hypocrisy regarding all of this because I like The Office!

In what way am I being dishonest? I'm all ears.


I have been reading your posts and Trinity's posts, I personally think there are a lot of us reading your posts and your outrage and thinking- OK you have made your point and the quiet majority would like a rest!

[Lago]

I have been reading your posts and Trinity's posts, I personally think there are a lot of us reading your posts and your outrage and thinking- OK you have made your point and the quiet majority would like a rest!
I'm one :aok:

[Skol]

Hibs played Stoke City in a friendly in 1976. During that game a young lad called Garth Crooks ran us ragged and IIRC scored the only goal. During that game the 16 year old Nae Nookie shouted some things at that super young player that at the very least would have gotten me ejected from any UK stadium if it had happened today.

OK I'm now 64 years old, but to this day I'm still ashamed of how I acted that night and I have to believe that if I can be like that then so can the likes of Malky McKay.

As others have said, this guy has had 3 employers since the incident concerned with absolutely no sign that his regret over what he did isn't genuine. Fans of other clubs will make hay while this particular sun shines because that's what football fans do, but the ones who will have histories of their own that hardly give them carte blanche to be casting the first stone.

Given the obvious potential for adverse publicity this appointment had I highly doubt Hibs gave it anything less than due diligence before employing him. Now it's time to judge the guy on the job he does, not his past.

I was at that game aged 9 or 10 if it was 1976. IIRC Gordon Banks played as well and Stoke won 1-0 by a Crooks goal. I still recall one of the adjusts saying to me after the game it was black magic. I thought that was great at the time, but it has been in the back of my mind for a lot of my adult life being something I was uncomfortable with.

With hindsight it was inappropriate to say such a thing, but where I grew up that was the norm. I was in my early 20s before the penny started to drop on some of the terms I used innocently and without thinking.

[Superfurry72]

I'm one :aok:

You’re hardly quiet, are you? You just happen to disagree with me. Anyway, you’ve got your wish. You can carry on the Malky love in. This has all been something of an eye opener but I’ve learned some uncomfortable truths, so at least there’s that to take from a depressing few days.

[blackpoolhibs]

I am not saying I live the perfect life, and I'm sure I've offended people in the past. I know I have, even if I've done my best not to. As I've had to state frequently, this is all about context. Regarding Mackay, it's a 42-year-old man (as he was then) who'd been around the football world since he was a teenager having to undergo training to learn how not to be a horrible bigot. I find it inconceivable that Malky Mackay did not know that type of language was incredibly offensive.

I am not alone in saying this makes me uncomfortable about his appointment. And in that context, there are lots of posts flying around here where people are saying 'if we're being honest we've all said those kind of things in private messages...' etc when I can honestly, hand on heart, say to the best of my knowledge that as an adult I've not indulged that type of behaviour (there's the context, we all say stupid things growing up, which I'll readily confess to). And I certainly have gone nowhere near where Mackay went.

I think it's actually sad that people find that hard to believe. I think it says a lot.

I'd guess and yes it's only a guess, but i think from my experience in non league football, some of the 'banter' would have got lots of players i played with jailed now.

Things change, and football is even still now slowly catching up with what we'd say was acceptable these days, but is clearly much better.

Give people a chance to prove they have changed, if you dont they never will.

[Superfurry72]

I'd guess and yes it's only a guess, but i think from my experience in non league football, some of the 'banter' would have got lots of players i played with jailed now.

Things change, and football is even still now slowly catching up with what we'd say was acceptable these days, but is clearly much better.

Give people a chance to prove they have changed, if you dont they never will.

I do hear what you’re saying

[Jones28]

I do hear what you’re saying

But you don’t agree presumably?

[Superfurry72]

But you don’t agree presumably?

Not entirely no, for reasons I’ve already outlined fairly clearly in earlier posts.

[Hibbyradge]

On the thread about the fan at the Ross County game, there were at least two posts saying he should get a lifetime ban for abusing the player. I didnt notice if it was the same or different posters that were talking about the wonderful power of education and réhabilitationin relation to MM, and I dont really have a view about what should happen to the dude either way, im just pointing it out. Its for others to decide if something is fair or consistent.

Gotcha. I haven't read that thread.

Holding questionable views and sharing them privately with people you trust is not a crime. In fact, as much as I find those views abhorrent, I have to accept that people are entitled to hold them, as wrong as they are.

As Voltaire (didn't) say, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I actually wouldn't do that with racism, homophobia, misogyny or bigotry, but I'm sure you understand the point.

However, when people who hold those views put them into action and bully, harrass and victimise the subjects of their contempt, then that is something else entirely and is much more sinister.

I don't know exactly what was said to Danda, but it clearly falls into the latter category. However, I believe the individual was genuinely remorseful and horrified at their actions, they apologised fully and all parties involved were content to leave it at that. If s/he does it again, the book will be thrown at them.

I'm surprised no further sanctions were applied but I don't think as much as a life ban would have been appropriate unless the person was unrepentant and continued to spout abuse.

[Steve-O]

Hibs played Stoke City in a friendly in 1976. During that game a young lad called Garth Crooks ran us ragged and IIRC scored the only goal. During that game the 16 year old Nae Nookie shouted some things at that super young player that at the very least would have gotten me ejected from any UK stadium if it had happened today.

OK I'm now 64 years old, but to this day I'm still ashamed of how I acted that night and I have to believe that if I can be like that then so can the likes of Malky McKay.

As others have said, this guy has had 3 employers since the incident concerned with absolutely no sign that his regret over what he did isn't genuine. Fans of other clubs will make hay while this particular sun shines because that's what football fans do, but the ones who will have histories of their own that hardly give them carte blanche to be casting the first stone.

Given the obvious potential for adverse publicity this appointment had I highly doubt Hibs gave it anything less than due diligence before employing him. Now it's time to judge the guy on the job he does, not his past.

While I’m quite happy to give Mackay a chance and accept he has likely learned a harsh lesson, I would also say that a 16 year old shouting these things in the 70s and a fully grown man in his 40s expressing these views in 2014 is incomparable.

[Iain G]

You seem to frequently misunderstand and misrepresent my posts, as you have done again. Earlier this week you accused me of hypocrisy regarding all of this because I like The Office!

In what way am I being dishonest? I'm all ears.

The UK or US version, I think we deserve to know all the facts here 😁

[Albert Kidd 86’]

As the OP, all I wanted to point out was the strange feeling that we, as fans can feel, ie. alienated or let down, by the club we love when they make a decision we do not agree with in a non footballing sense, and how we struggle to either accept or rage against it, be it a controversial appointment or a controversial take-over like some of the ones going on down south.

Each problem can be judged on its merits, but I found the overriding love for HFC an interesting phenomena when pitted against my equally overriding hatred of racism/homophobia/injustice.

where those two meet is a difficult landscape to navigate for me; thats all I wanted to point out.

GGTTH.

[One Day]

Debating this in work, the debate ended when I asked to see the group chat content of the guys in the office.

I mean, it's not great PR because of the pile on by the hypocrits, and I do think there must have been other options, but at the end of the day, for me there's only one man I want our club to have zero connection with, and it's not Malky Mackay.

I said the same thing when discussing it with friends, how many of us would like our whatsapp, group or private chats made public.

[RoYO!]

Gotcha. I haven't read that thread.

Holding questionable views and sharing them privately with people you trust is not a crime. In fact, as much as I find those views abhorrent, I have to accept that people are entitled to hold them, as wrong as they are.

As Voltaire (didn't) say, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I actually wouldn't do that with racism, homophobia, misogyny or bigotry, but I'm sure you understand the point.

However, when people who hold those views put them into action and bully, harrass and victimise the subjects of their contempt, then that is something else entirely and is much more sinister.

I don't know exactly what was said to Danda, but it clearly falls into the latter category. However, I believe the individual was genuinely remorseful and horrified at their actions, they apologised fully and all parties involved were content to leave it at that. If s/he does it again, the book will be thrown at them.

I'm surprised no further sanctions were applied but I don't think as much as a life ban would have been appropriate unless the person was unrepentant and continued to spout abuse.

Pretty sure that the second paragraph is wrong under the new hate crime act. I guess it would also depend on what the person was saying. I'm also not sure anyone is "entitled" to hold racist, homophobic, bigoted views either.

Must have been some hell of a "course" MM has been on...

xD

[Edina Street]

Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments.

[tug.lismore]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments.What a great post.

If we don't accept that people can change then we are doomed as a society.

Sent from my 2312DRA50G using Tapatalk

[Sioux]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments.

:top marks

The furry one will be along in due course to suggest that you should never have been released.

Once you're naughty, you're forever naughty.

[Lago]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments.
Well said Sir, I salute you.

[H18S NX]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments......Well said m8:agree:

[WeAreHibs]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments.

Fantastic post! 👍🏻💚

[.Sean.]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments.
Best post I have read on here in a long, looooong time

[SlickShoes]

Social Media Gang Stalking, what even is that? Is putting a statement online saying you don’t support the appointment gang stalking?

I don’t think Malky was trying to act macho, he was acting racist probably because he was racist at the time.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-cardiff-scottish-football-association-scotland-ross-county-b2545743.html

I will support Malky Mackay as I actually once done time in prison when it became exposed to others as well as myself that I had hidden anger management issues that even I myself had been previously unaware of, and one of the tools used to support a prosecution against myself was text messages that I had sent.

I to when I first left prison had a hard time earning peoples trust again. But I went in front of two different councils to obtain two different licenses and the Police representative that was arguing to the councils that I was not a fit and proper person to hold licenses was left dismayed when on two occasions I was able to convince two groups of councils that I was in fact a fit and proper person.

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

As part of my rehabilitating I have learnt that avoiding being judgemental and over opinionated and confrontational is a good way to avoid becoming a walking talking breach of the peace, and instead show understanding, patience and always remain calm and thoughtful and avoid acting impulsively.

I would also gently argue in Malky MacKays favour that whilst Racism, Homophobia and Sexism is unacceptable, text messaging is just about the lowest form of communication available, and even Malky MacKay at his worst probably would never have considered taking part in a gang stalking campaign.

Malky MacKay really is the victim of social media gang stalking.

"Hibernian ultras group Block Seven, Hibees Pride and Hibernian Women Supporters Alliance all condemned Mackay’s appointment at the cinch Premiership club.".

Absolutely no way would anybody that is endlessly rehabilitating ever take part in a gang stalk campaign. This is simply harassment.

People may argue that the public campaign against Malky is justified. Harassment of this proportion is far worse than what Malky done, which probably amounted to nothing more than trying to act macho in an environment that he mistakenly thought acting Macho was required. Maybe did not even represent his true sentiments.

Harassment :faf:
Dry your eyes,i think Malky is OK.
I respect your point of view, but trying to paint him as some sort of victim of the social media-driven snowflakey woke public campaign is total nonsense.

[CropleyWasGod]

One of the key statements that impressed the heads of the committees was when I was asked "Are you rehabilitated"? and I said "no, but I will never stop rehabilitating". After a silence, I was told that that was actually a good answer, and I was awarded my licenses.

So I support Malky MacKay, because I to understand that if Malky MacKay also adopts the attitude that rehabilitating is something that we should keep doing throughout our lives, then he will end up being twice as good a citizen as those that want to endlessly punish him.

.

The most relevant part of all IMO.

Great post.

[matty_f]

Social Media Gang Stalking, what even is that? Is putting a statement online saying you don’t support the appointment gang stalking?

I don’t think Malky was trying to act macho, he was acting racist probably because he was racist at the time.

I don't know whether your statement is right or not, because I don't know Malky Mackay or what his motivations were at the time.

Certainly, it's impossible to send those texts without being racist but I would definitely question the challenge about Malky trying to act macho.

I think there was an element of toxic masculinity at play, and I think virtually everyone using this forum will have been - at some point - in a situation where the conversation goes beyond what they find acceptable and they have either joined in or let it go unchallenged.

Someone mentioned The Office earlier, and there's a good example of what I mean in it. David Brent tells a racist joke in the workplace, he knows it's racist (he stops the joke when a black colleague joins the conversation) but tells it because he wants to be seen to be one of the lads. You see how he reacts to Finchy, who's the epitome of toxic masculinity. He desperately wants to get his approval, so despite knowing that racism and sexism is wrong, he goes along with it.

Anyway - I'm not saying that's why Mackay did what he did, I'm just saying that I wouldn't rule it out, and I'm in no way offering it as a defence of what he did, those messages were disgusting and he has to own them.

I've had to post messages in WhatsApp groups I'm in before to ask folk not to share jokes or memes etc that are racist, sexist, homophobic etc (I remember sharing the wording I used in here a long time back with someone who was facing the same thing with their friends) so I'm not being captain hindsight with it.

It can be very difficult to be the one in a group that says 'that's too far/not funny/unacceptable' when it looks like others are laughing along at it.

Again, for the avoidance of doubt I am in no way downplaying what he wrote, excusing it, or offering mitigation for him. He's a grown up, he needs to own his actions and I have no idea what the motivation for the messages was, this was simply to counter the point saying it wasn't that reason.

[SlickShoes]

I don't know whether your statement is right or not, because I don't know Malky Mackay or what his motivations were at the time.

Certainly, it's impossible to send those texts without being racist but I would definitely question the challenge about Malky trying to act macho.

I think there was an element of toxic masculinity at play, and I think virtually everyone using this forum will have been - at some point - in a situation where the conversation goes beyond what they find acceptable and they have either joined in or let it go unchallenged.

Someone mentioned The Office earlier, and there's a good example of what I mean in it. David Brent tells a racist joke in the workplace, he knows it's racist (he stops the joke when a black colleague joins the conversation) but tells it because he wants to be seen to be one of the lads. You see how he reacts to Finchy, who's the epitome of toxic masculinity. He desperately wants to get his approval, so despite knowing that racism and sexism is wrong, he goes along with it.

Anyway - I'm not saying that's why Mackay did what he did, I'm just saying that I wouldn't rule it out, and I'm in no way offering it as a defence of what he did, those messages were disgusting and he has to own them.

I've had to post messages in WhatsApp groups I'm in before to ask folk not to share jokes or memes etc that are racist, sexist, homophobic etc (I remember sharing the wording I used in here a long time back with someone who was facing the same thing with their friends) so I'm not being captain hindsight with it.

It can be very difficult to be the one in a group that says 'that's too far/not funny/unacceptable' when it looks like others are laughing along at it.

Again, for the avoidance of doubt I am in no way downplaying what he wrote, excusing it, or offering mitigation for him. He's a grown up, he needs to own his actions and I have no idea what the motivation for the messages was, this was simply to counter the point saying it wasn't that reason.

The statement part is that it was racist and it was, there’s no debate. The other part was my opinion that I don’t think it was acting macho.


We need people to call it out and say it’s wrong like you done, but if you say that here you are dogpiled for not understand “lads” and banter, or it’s suggested you “hate” malky, are attacking him and part of some sort of online mob. Just because I don’t think it’s a good appointment and won’t be happy about it and wrote that in a forum, I don’t think he will care what’s said here, he’s in the job anyway.

And for clarity sake because no doubt someone will bring it up, I didn’t sing the skacel song, I don’t condone drunk driving and I think Anthony Stokes is a pretty bad person.

[Since452]

I don't know whether your statement is right or not, because I don't know Malky Mackay or what his motivations were at the time.

Certainly, it's impossible to send those texts without being racist but I would definitely question the challenge about Malky trying to act macho.

I think there was an element of toxic masculinity at play, and I think virtually everyone using this forum will have been - at some point - in a situation where the conversation goes beyond what they find acceptable and they have either joined in or let it go unchallenged.

Someone mentioned The Office earlier, and there's a good example of what I mean in it. David Brent tells a racist joke in the workplace, he knows it's racist (he stops the joke when a black colleague joins the conversation) but tells it because he wants to be seen to be one of the lads. You see how he reacts to Finchy, who's the epitome of toxic masculinity. He desperately wants to get his approval, so despite knowing that racism and sexism is wrong, he goes along with it.

Anyway - I'm not saying that's why Mackay did what he did, I'm just saying that I wouldn't rule it out, and I'm in no way offering it as a defence of what he did, those messages were disgusting and he has to own them.

I've had to post messages in WhatsApp groups I'm in before to ask folk not to share jokes or memes etc that are racist, sexist, homophobic etc (I remember sharing the wording I used in here a long time back with someone who was facing the same thing with their friends) so I'm not being captain hindsight with it.

It can be very difficult to be the one in a group that says 'that's too far/not funny/unacceptable' when it looks like others are laughing along at it.

Again, for the avoidance of doubt I am in no way downplaying what he wrote, excusing it, or offering mitigation for him. He's a grown up, he needs to own his actions and I have no idea what the motivation for the messages was, this was simply to counter the point saying it wasn't that reason.

I thought we'd left The Office chat behind when Johnson was sacked :rolleyes::greengrin

[matty_f]

The statement part is that it was racist and it was, there’s no debate. The other part was my opinion that I don’t think it was acting macho.


We need people to call it out and say it’s wrong like you done, but if you say that here you are dogpiled for not understand “lads” and banter, or it’s suggested you “hate” malky, are attacking him and part of some sort of online mob. Just because I don’t think it’s a good appointment and won’t be happy about it and wrote that in a forum, I don’t think he will care what’s said here, he’s in the job anyway.

And for clarity sake because no doubt someone will bring it up, I didn’t sing the skacel song, I don’t condone drunk driving and I think Anthony Stokes is a pretty bad person.

I agree, it's absolute a fact that it was racist, and I got you were just giving your opinion on it, apologies if it didn't come across like I did.

[Rumble de Thump]

Harassment :faf:
Dry your eyes,i think Malky is OK.
I respect your point of view, but trying to paint him as some sort of victim of the social media-driven snowflakey woke public campaign is total nonsense.

It seems pretty obvious that some people just lack an awareness of how toxic and abusive their behaviour can be.