Humza Oot!

[Hibs4185]

Just because it’s a footy forum and there is often a manger out thread, thought it was only fair we had a holy ground GTF thread.

Appreciate it might get merged with SNP/Independence topics but given it’s a current/live situation I thought it might be worth its own thread.

Anyway, I reckon he’ll be gone by Tuesday.

Just watched a post with a green MSP crying on the radio because the SNP and greens had spent 2.5 years together doing good work .

I think they will kiss and make up to save the day, I hope not mind you.

Anyway Humza oot!

[Stairway 2 7]

Happy for him to be oot bur much more interested in who is next. Will be genuinely gutted with Gray ect. More of the same means in my opinion at least 5 years without a serious push for independence.

When the rumours were hinting a Forbes Flynn deal, then they said Flynn pushed Humza to ditch green's I was excited that we were going to change and push for independence.

As I say I will be genuinely gutted if its more of the same and daft Harvey has a say on Scottish politics

[LaMotta]

He's resigning according to the National
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24284345.humza-yousaf-to-resign-snp-leader-first-minister/?s=09

[SteveHFC]

He's resigning according to the National
https://www.thenational.scot/news/24284345.humza-yousaf-to-resign-snp-leader-first-minister/?s=09

Wonder who will replace him. Flynn or Forbes?

[Ozyhibby]

Wonder who will replace him. Flynn or Forbes?

I’d like Flynn but it would take a fair bit of shenanigans to get him into Holyrood.


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[Hibs4185]

I’d still like to see Katie Forbes but I can’t see how she would get a majority and I don’t think the other parties would work with her.

In saying that, I don’t think any candidate will get a working minority government as the other parties will love a SNP pile on for their own political aspirations

[marinello59]

I’d like Flynn but it would take a fair bit of shenanigans to get him into Holyrood.


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Flynn might prove popular initially with the SNP membership but not so much outside the party with the voters they will need to be won over to gain Independence. He’s like the player you have on your team that you love but supporters of all other teams despise.

Yousaf should never have been anywhere near the First Ministers post. A decent man but so far out of his depth it’s been painful to watch at times.

[Ozyhibby]

Flynn might prove popular initially with the SNP membership but not so much outside the party with the voters they will need to be won over to gain Independence. He’s like the player you have on your team that you love but supporters of all other teams despise.

Yousaf should never have been anywhere near the First Ministers post. A decent man but so far out of his depth it’s been painful to watch at times.

That will be true for whoever comes in though? I haven’t detected any real dislike for Flynn yet?


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[Ozyhibby]

I’d still like to see Katie Forbes but I can’t see how she would get a majority and I don’t think the other parties would work with her.

In saying that, I don’t think any candidate will get a working minority government as the other parties will love a SNP pile on for their own political aspirations

You bring forward good law and good budgets and make it very difficult for parties to vote against.


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[marinello59]

That will be true for whoever comes in though? I haven’t detected any real dislike for Flynn yet?


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There’s a real difference between ramping up the politics of division at Westminster with a few well placed quips and running a country.


You bring forward good law and good budgets and make it very difficult for parties to vote against.


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:agree:
Despite the Greens attitude towards her I think Forbes has a much better chance of achieving this than Flynn.

[Hibs4185]

You bring forward good law and good budgets and make it very difficult for parties to vote against.


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I think Forbes is the person to do that, but I can see the greens using her religion to go against her in regards to gender etc and the other parties will view her as a controversial politician, again due to her religion.

I really want her to get the job but it could be a poisoned chalice from the first minute

[Moulin Yarns]

I think Forbes is the person to do that, but I can see the greens using her religion to go against her in regards to gender etc and the other parties will view her as a controversial politician, again due to her religion.

I really want her to get the job but it could be a poisoned chalice from the first minute

Why did nobody have anything negative to say about Yousaf's religion? Forbes is a Christian.

[marinello59]

Why did nobody have anything negative to say about Yousaf's religion? Forbes is a Christian.

Maybe that’s a question best asked of the Green Party leadership. It’s them who have said they will not work with her.

[LaMotta]

Wonder who will replace him. Flynn or Forbes?


I’d like Flynn but it would take a fair bit of shenanigans to get him into Holyrood.


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Flynn has been impressive so far. As you say not quite sure how that could be enabled though....

[Moulin Yarns]

Expect to see Chris Mason or nick eardley to outside Bute house today.

[SHODAN]

Absolutely no chance I will vote for the SNP while Forbes is leader.

Sick of the right of EVERY party in this country given concession after concession.

[Hibs4185]

Absolutely no chance I will vote for the SNP while Forbes is leader.

Sick of the right of EVERY party in this country given concession after concession.

This is not meant to be a dig but what makes KF right wing?

She has religious views regarding gender and marriage etc but in my opinion that just makes her religious not right wing?

I think Scotland needs to make the business case to be independent and get business on side, she seems to be the only one that grasps that and I think she is the best candidate for independence.

[Bristolhibby]

This is not meant to be a dig but what makes KF right wing?

She has religious views regarding gender and marriage etc but in my opinion that just makes her religious not right wing?

I think Scotland needs to make the business case to be independent and get business on side, she seems to be the only one that grasps that and I think she is the best candidate for independence.

Correct, Eyes on the prize. SNP are the best route to Independence. However I do think there needs to be a broad coalition of YES. SNP need to embrace the wider yes movement.

J

[Pretty Boy]

This is not meant to be a dig but what makes KF right wing?

She has religious views regarding gender and marriage etc but in my opinion that just makes her religious not right wing?

I think Scotland needs to make the business case to be independent and get business on side, she seems to be the only one that grasps that and I think she is the best candidate for independence.

I find a lot of people have this mistaken belief that everyone who has a religious faith is pious, intolerant and disapproving. Like many things the extremists tend to be the most vocal and don't necessarily represent the views of the whole. Of course the Free Church sits towards the more extreme end of Christianity as an entity with their literal interpretation of the Bible and rejection of ecumenism as a couple of examples of that. That doesn't necessarily mean every single member is a strict traditionalist though, most religions have dissent from within the ranks.

There was a huge gathering of information by the Catholic Church last year before a synod in Rome. Right down to Parish level there was encouragement to solicit the views of the congregation, this was then passed up through Diocesan level and finally a national representative attended the synod itself in Rome. Our church asked attendees to fill out a questionnaire and also held several follow up meetings to explore issues further. The results were published and the percentage of people who placed issues such as abortion, homosexuality, gender, same sex marriage, sex outside marriage etc etc as the most important issues for the Church was tiny. There was far more emphasis on apologising for abuse and paying reparations, tackling poverty, working to be a positive influence in the community, working together with other denominations and those of no faith to build bridges etc etc. Anecdotally in the conversations I had this importance on social justice issues rather than the old obsessions with sexual morality was reflected across age groups, genders and so on. A similar pattern was evident across the Church in Europe. One of the things that came out of the meetings we had was a feeling that there had to be a move towards being more inclusive and that has seen initiatives working with a local LGBTQI group to find common ground, there is also a group working towards trying to be more inclusive of women in the Parish.

Of course none of that takes away from there being elements of the teachings of the Church as a whole being extremely socially conservative at best. The point I am trying to make though is there is deviation from the central teaching in almost any organisation. I think Kate Forbes was quite clear when interviewed before that her own personal beliefs and morals don't necessarily reflect what she would impose on others. Like millions, possibly even billions, of others with a faith it's entirely possible she finds solace in the group, agrees with elements of the core message without being slavishly obedient to every single teaching.

That's a particularly long winded way of saying that I agree that people need to separate Forbes religion from her politics (and she is a bit too right wing for my tastes). If she is to be subjected to the same kind of cross examination as before then hopefully this time it's replicated across the board rather than the pile on that was akin to bullying that we saw last time.

[Ozyhibby]

I find a lot of people have this mistaken belief that everyone who has a religious faith is pious, intolerant and disapproving. Like many things the extremists tend to be the most vocal and don't necessarily represent the views of the whole. Of course the Free Church sits towards the more extreme end of Christianity as an entity with their literal interpretation of the Bible and rejection of ecumenism as a couple of examples of that. That doesn't necessarily mean every single member is a strict traditionalist though, most religions have dissent from within the ranks.

There was a huge gathering of information by the Catholic Church last year before a synod in Rome. Right down to Parish level there was encouragement to solicit the views of the congregation, this was then passed up through Diocesan level and finally a national representative attended the synod itself in Rome. Our church asked attendees to fill out a questionnaire and also held several follow up meetings to explore issues further. The results were published and the percentage of people who placed issues such as abortion, homosexuality, gender, same sex marriage, sex outside marriage etc etc as the most important issues for the Church was tiny. There was far more emphasis on apologising for abuse and paying reparations, tackling poverty, working to be a positive influence in the community, working together with other denominations and those of no faith to build bridges etc etc. Anecdotally in the conversations I had this importance on social justice issues rather than the old obsessions with sexual morality was reflected across age groups, genders and so on. A similar pattern was evident across the Church in Europe. One of the things that came out of the meetings we had was a feeling that there had to be a move towards being more inclusive and that has seen initiatives working with a local LGBTQI group to find common ground, there is also a group working towards trying to be more inclusive of women in the Parish.

Of course none of that takes away from there being elements of the teachings of the Church as a whole being extremely socially conservative at best. The point I am trying to make though is there is deviation from the central teaching in almost any organisation. I think Kate Forbes was quite clear when interviewed before that her own personal beliefs and morals don't necessarily reflect what she would impose on others. Like millions, possibly even billions, of others with a faith it's entirely possible she finds solace in the group, agrees with elements of the core message without being slavishly obedient to every single teaching.

That's a particularly long winded way of saying that I agree that people need to separate Forbes religion from her politics (and she is a bit too right wing for my tastes). If she is to be subjected to the same kind of cross examination as before then hopefully this time it's replicated across the board rather than the pile on that was akin to bullying that we saw last time.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240429/540f5f0b6d83fdb781353ce85a624ca9.jpg

An early lead among National readers.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240429/540f5f0b6d83fdb781353ce85a624ca9.jpg

An early lead among National readers.


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John swinney won't stand, he doesn't want it, at least not permanent but a possible caretaker manager.

[JimBHibees]

Expect to see Chris Mason or nick eardley to outside Bute house today.

Usually someone Scottish isn't it

[grunt]

Seems strikingly unjust that Yousaf (good man IMO) is forced out of office yet Sunak (slimy lying creep) gets to stay in post. There's something very wrong with UK politics at the mo.

[Stairway 2 7]

Seems strikingly unjust that Yousaf (good man IMO) is forced out of office yet Sunak (slimy lying creep) gets to stay in post. There's something very wrong with UK politics at the mo.

Both unpopular with awful approval ratings. The greens brought Humza down but he and Sunak were very likely to go post election. At least compared to other nations we can vote to get rid of the prime minister, which will happen this year

[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240429/540f5f0b6d83fdb781353ce85a624ca9.jpg

An early lead among National readers.


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Very surprised about that. I would far rather have the top two than bottom three, who have no chance.

I'd prefer Flynn if it who is best for the job. But I just want independence. Most are already entrenched in yes or no the only focus should be the middle. Forbes gets that more than any other. Put a line under Sturgeon/Yousaf move on get independence. Labour will be hopeless in the UK, so plenty tradition Labour voters to be won in the next 5 years

[grunt]

Both unpopular with awful approval ratings. Name a party leader who is popular and who has good approval ratings. Sturgeon was the last such individual.

[Stairway 2 7]

Name a party leader who is popular and who has good approval ratings. Sturgeon was the last such individual.

Nah leaders usually take over neutral then drop till they are bumped. Sturgeon started just below neutral then dropped, Humza started negative and ended terribly below. Starmer is back up into positive territory, he'll drop until the party says we need change

Truss's line on this graph will never not be funny

[JimBHibees]

Seems strikingly unjust that Yousaf (good man IMO) is forced out of office yet Sunak (slimy lying creep) gets to stay in post. There's something very wrong with UK politics at the mo.

Certainly have sympathy for that view. Suppose it highlights the proportional system. Does seem odd to be honest

[grunt]

Sturgeon started just below neutral then dropped, Humza started negative and ended terribly below. Starmer is back up into positive territory, he'll drop until the party says we need change
I thought she was popular. Am I wrong?

[Stairway 2 7]

I thought she was popular. Am I wrong?

Sturgeon ended up the Same as T May ended minus 19, hugely unpopular. Starmer is plus 14 now. She was plus 18 at one point, only Starmer plus 22 and unbelievably boris during Covid plus ******g 45 have been higher recently

[Hibs4185]

No idea who this guy is but a couple of people on twitter shared this opinion piece.

https://robinmcalpine.org/the-snp-must-choose-forbes/

[Ozyhibby]

No idea who this guy is but a couple of people on twitter shared this opinion piece.

https://robinmcalpine.org/the-snp-must-choose-forbes/

He’s the ex leader of the Greens.


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[Stairway 2 7]

No idea who this guy is but a couple of people on twitter shared this opinion piece.

https://robinmcalpine.org/the-snp-must-choose-forbes/

Very good article, it seems too obvious. I fear the liz Lloyd, Sturgeon, Harvey deathgrip would rather take the ship down than charge course on the sinking ship

[Andy Bee]

He’s the ex leader of the Greens.


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He's the ex director of Commom Weal.

I think you're thinking of Robin Harper.

[marinello59]

Certainly have sympathy for that view. Suppose it highlights the proportional system. Does seem odd to be honest

Youdaf knew the system yet made one of the most astonishing political miscalculations you are ever likely to see in the way he went about ditching the Greens. It’s maybe just as well he left rather than face a vote of no confidence, I would not have been shocked if he had voted in favour of the motion. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Youdaf knew the system yet made one of the most astonishing political miscalculations you are ever likely to see in the way he went about ditching the Greens. It’s maybe just as well he left rather than face a vote of no confidence, I would not have been shocked if he had voted in favour of the motion. :greengrin

I don’t think it’s a miscalculation. I don’t think he had a choice in the end. The party could no longer stomach the Greens and he was told what to do.
The Greens obsessions with trans issues was hurting the SNP badly with voters. And the numbers were not stacking up either. The Greens were bringing 7 votes to the table but 9 SNP MSP’s were rebelling every time and the number was set to grow. In the end, he had no choice.
He could maybe have executed it better and humiliated them a bit less but even that may not have saved him as I think that there is no way to dump Patrick Harvie that would not have brought a vengeful spiteful response.
The mistake was in bringing them in so close in the first place.


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[marinello59]

I don’t think it’s a miscalculation. I don’t think he had a choice in the end. The party could no longer stomach the Greens and he was told what to do.
The Greens obsessions with trans issues was hurting the SNP badly with voters. And the numbers were not stacking up either. The Greens were bringing 7 votes to the table but 9 SNP MSP’s were rebelling every time and the number was set to grow. In the end, he had no choice.
He could maybe have executed it better and humiliated them a bit less but even that may not have saved him as I think that there is no way to dump Patrick Harvie that would not have brought a vengeful spiteful response.
The mistake was in bringing them in so close in the first place.


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It was the way he went about it . In trying to portray himself as a strong leader he didn’t just summarily sack them, he humiliated the two ministers. That was the miscalculation, he really should have seen it coming.

[JimBHibees]

Youdaf knew the system yet made one of the most astonishing political miscalculations you are ever likely to see in the way he went about ditching the Greens. It’s maybe just as well he left rather than face a vote of no confidence, I would not have been shocked if he had voted in favour of the motion. :greengrin

😄

[Hibrandenburg]

It was the way he went about it . In trying to portray himself as a strong leader he didn’t just summarily sack them, he humiliated the two ministers. That was the miscalculation, he really should have seen it coming.

He definitely wasn't a strong leader, if he could even be described as a leader is another debate.

As a Green at heart, what has come out of this for me is that the Greens in Scotland are unelectable. They've deviated so far from true green policy which should be their sole purpose and deviated into territory that just fuels the fires of the culture war we're in the midst of. There's no way I could vote for them in their current manifestation and depending on who gets elected leader of the SNP, I'll probably use both my votes for them.

[Stairway 2 7]

He definitely wasn't a strong leader, if he could even be described as a leader is another debate.

As a Green at heart, what has come out of this for me is that the Greens in Scotland are unelectable. They've deviated so far from true green policy which should be their sole purpose and deviated into territory that just fuels the fires of the culture war we're in the midst of. There's no way I could vote for them in their current manifestation and depending on who gets elected leader of the SNP, I'll probably use both my votes for them.

I think the greens should be neutral on independence and focused on green issues. That way they would take votes from both sides rather than mostly independence minded, I assume some no voters that would vote for them normally might not due to independence.

Then again if a restart with Andy Wightman and Mcalpine were to happen focused on the planet and still wanting independence they might get my both votes.


A segue but notice Andy Wightman hitting out at Swinney yesterday
https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1784999999165624608

[Andy Bee]

It was the way he went about it . In trying to portray himself as a strong leader he didn’t just summarily sack them, he humiliated the two ministers. That was the miscalculation, he really should have seen it coming.

:agree: If my boss told everyone that my work was gold plated and sang my praises and then 2 days later called me into the office at 8am in the morning to demote me including a £55k pay cut then I aint going to be happy. I fail to see what other outcome Humza Yousaf had in mind. He should've put it to the members or atleast the cabinet to take some of the pressure off himself, that's what the Greens were doing.

[One Day Soon]

I don’t think it’s a miscalculation. I don’t think he had a choice in the end. The party could no longer stomach the Greens and he was told what to do.
The Greens obsessions with trans issues was hurting the SNP badly with voters. And the numbers were not stacking up either. The Greens were bringing 7 votes to the table but 9 SNP MSP’s were rebelling every time and the number was set to grow. In the end, he had no choice.
He could maybe have executed it better and humiliated them a bit less but even that may not have saved him as I think that there is no way to dump Patrick Harvie that would not have brought a vengeful spiteful response.
The mistake was in bringing them in so close in the first place.


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I'm absolutely delighted by it all given that I oppose independence and also think that the 'Scottish Greens' aren't actually a real Green Party. Couldn't be happier.

However I think your analysis here is spot on. Supping with Harvie was always a high risk strategy.

One other person who should probably be quite worried at the moment is Sturgeon. There will be many reasons for Swinney standing for the leadership but a significant one would be to keep Forbes away from the leadership for fear of what she may then discover and what could follow from that...

[One Day Soon]

It was the way he went about it . In trying to portray himself as a strong leader he didn’t just summarily sack them, he humiliated the two ministers. That was the miscalculation, he really should have seen it coming.

He's a pretty decent guy but as a politician he's a gigantic clown-shoe.

[weecounty hibby]

:agree: If my boss told everyone that my work was gold plated and sang my praises and then 2 days later called me into the office at 8am in the morning to demote me including a £55k pay cut then I aint going to be happy. I fail to see what other outcome Humza Yousaf had in mind. He should've put it to the members or atleast the cabinet to take some of the pressure off himself, that's what the Greens were doing.
What about if you told your boss that you were going to ask your wife and kids whether or not you were going to continue doing your critical job and after they had made a decision you'd let him know one way or another? It was the right decision badly handled. It could have been done better but ultimately I believe, as a very long time SNP member, that the right decision was taken. Let's get back to making independence happen and focus again on the vast majority of the populations priorities. Jobs, finance, health, communities, environment, education.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm absolutely delighted by it all given that I oppose independence and also think that the 'Scottish Greens' aren't actually a real Green Party. Couldn't be happier.

However I think your analysis here is spot on. Supping with Harvie was always a high risk strategy.

One other person who should probably be quite worried at the moment is Sturgeon. There will be many reasons for Swinney standing for the leadership but a significant one would be to keep Forbes away from the leadership for fear of what she may then discover and what could follow from that...

That’s exactly why Swinney is being press ganged into action. This is about party control. I hope Forbes stands and the members take back control.


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[grunt]

One other person who should probably be quite worried at the moment is Sturgeon. There will be many reasons for Swinney standing for the leadership but a significant one would be to keep Forbes away from the leadership for fear of what she may then discover and what could follow from that...
Sounds interesting. Do tell.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the greens should be neutral on independence and focused on green issues. That way they would take votes from both sides rather than mostly independence minded, I assume some no voters that would vote for them normally might not due to independence.

Then again if a restart with Andy Wightman and Mcalpine were to happen focused on the planet and still wanting independence they might get my both votes.


A segue but notice Andy Wightman hitting out at Swinney yesterday
https://twitter.com/andywightman/status/1784999999165624608

I actually think the opposite is true. The Greens are where they are mainly due to independence supporters giving them their 2nd vote. If they sit on the fence at the next election then they will lose votes to a pro independence party. I think most Green supporters are aware that Westminster will never deliver true green change, a green Scotland is only possible in an independent Scotland.

[Hibs4185]

That’s exactly why Swinney is being press ganged into action. This is about party control. I hope Forbes stands and the members take back control.


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Here here

[Hiber-nation]

That’s exactly why Swinney is being press ganged into action. This is about party control. I hope Forbes stands and the members take back control.


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I hope she stands too but it looks like continuity into the fallout from the General Election which will see Labour taking a load of SNP seats and public opinion on the SNP sliding further downwards. Swinney seems to have a huge sense of duty and doesn't mind being the fall guy.

If the GE sees the SNP take a huge hit then he should just call a Scottish election and then they can hopefully rebuild from opposition. Have to say 5 years ago I didn't expect it to end like this.

[Hibs4185]

I understand the plan with swinney and a bit of continuity before the election but it’s two years away!

Surely get a good candidate in and try to turn it around, two years is plenty of time.

The idea of two years just faffing around with swinney in charge is brutal

[Stairway 2 7]

I actually think the opposite is true. The Greens are where they are mainly due to independence supporters giving them their 2nd vote. If they sit on the fence at the next election then they will lose votes to a pro independence party. I think most Green supporters are aware that Westminster will never deliver true green change, a green Scotland is only possible in an independent Scotland.

I probably think you're spot on, it's just annoying that there will be a good number of green voters that would take votes of the other 3 if neutral

[Ozyhibby]

I understand the plan with swinney and a bit of continuity before the election but it’s two years away!

Surely get a good candidate in and try to turn it around, two years is plenty of time.

The idea of two years just faffing around with swinney in charge is brutal

Agree totally. Will be a great shame if Forbes doesn’t stand. The party will be standing still for no good reason.


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[SteveHFC]

Forbes is considering a bid to succeed Humza.

[Keith_M]

Forbes is considering a bid to succeed Humza.


Where did you see that, Steve?

[SteveHFC]

Where did you see that, Steve?

STV News mate.

https://x.com/stvnews/status/1785351506666905860?s=46&t=MW7rW9XsaY_rH0m4EYSRhg

[Keith_M]

STV News mate.

https://x.com/stvnews/status/1785351506666905860?s=46&t=MW7rW9XsaY_rH0m4EYSRhg


Cheers, I've not been paying enough attention

[AgentDaleCooper]

Quite funny to see that forbes is the answer to anything

[SteveHFC]

Swinney to launch a bid to become FM.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c88zvgl9y9go

[Hibs4185]

Swinney to launch a bid to become FM.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c88zvgl9y9go

Sturgeon and her continuity pals must still have a tight grip on the party. Nothing against John swinney but he’s not exactly inspiring.

There was talk of a deal between him and KF but can’t help feel that the path is being laid for stephen Flynn to get it in a couple of years once swinney resigns

[marinello59]

Sturgeon and her continuity pals must still have a tight grip on the party. Nothing against John swinney but he’s not exactly inspiring.

There was talk of a deal between him and KF but can’t help feel that the path is being laid for stephen Flynn to get it in a couple of years once swinney resigns

Swinney should have been sacked from the Education job during Covid.
Another continuity candidate, party before country yet again. Lessons are not being learned if he is simply nodded through. Forbes will be making a huge strategic mistake if she goes along with this.

[Ozyhibby]

Swinney should have been sacked from the Education job during Covid.
Another continuity candidate, party before country yet again. Lessons are not being learned if he is simply nodded through. Forbes will be making a huge strategic mistake if she goes along with this.

I don’t see it as a mistake if she gets her policies through and changes direction of the party?
I’d rather she stood but I’m happy if she gets the changes she wants.


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[marinello59]

I don’t see it as a mistake if she gets her policies through and changes direction of the party?
I’d rather she stood but I’m happy if she gets the changes she wants.


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If she wants to change direction and push her own policies through then she should be doing it as leader. Why would you try and introduce the changes the party needs by imposing another continuity candidate loyal to the previous establishment to lead that change. It makes no sense. It isn’t the actions of a party that has learnt lessons, it’s driven by the same arrogant sense of electoral entitlement that brought New Labour down.

[Ozyhibby]

If she wants to change direction and push her own policies through then she should be doing it as leader. Why would you try and introduce the changes the party needs by imposing another continuity candidate loyal to the previous establishment to lead that change. It makes no sense. It isn’t the actions of a party that has learnt lessons, it’s driven by the same arrogant sense of electoral entitlement that brought New Labour down.

From her point of view it could be that she makes the calculation that the policy is more important than personal ambition?
She could stand and possibly win and gain massively or she could lose and gain nothing. The calculation maybe that she wants changes made and doesn’t want to risk nothing happening at all?
I don’t know if it’s even being considered but she has a lot of power now but may have a lot less of she loses. If she can get improvements done now which will also be good for her rep in future then that may be best option?


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[Ozyhibby]

Decent speech from Swinney so far. Praise for Forbes and focus on economy. Even a mention of planning reform.[emoji1696]


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Which of Forbes' policies are folk wanting to see implemented?

[Ozyhibby]

Which of Forbes' policies are folk wanting to see implemented?

A stronger focus on economic growth, planning reform and devolving powers down to local authorities are some of the things she has spoken about previously.


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[Ozyhibby]

If I had to put money on it, I think Forbes takes the deal and doesn’t stand. She’ll announce this afternoon. Swinney will be FM by next week.


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[One Day Soon]

If I had to put money on it, I think Forbes takes the deal and doesn’t stand. She’ll announce this afternoon. Swinney will be FM by next week.


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I certainly hope so. Continuity candidate 2 plus Forbes lashed to him in office and therefore subsequently unable to distance herself as having clean hands. Yes please.

If you could somehow just add the Greens back into the mix that would be perfect.

[Hibs4185]

I certainly hope so. Continuity candidate 2 plus Forbes lashed to him in office and therefore subsequently unable to distance herself as having clean hands. Yes please.

If you could somehow just add the Greens back into the mix that would be perfect.

Dunno what’s worse….hearts winning a league and cup double or the greens being back in the mix and continuing to ruin Scotland

[grunt]

If I had to put money on it, I think Forbes takes the deal and doesn’t stand. She’ll announce this afternoon. Swinney will be FM by next week.Confirmed by KF.

[AgentDaleCooper]

A stronger focus on economic growth, planning reform and devolving powers down to local authorities are some of the things she has spoken about previously.


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both of these are absolute red herrings IMO.

the former is literally causing an apocalypse, while the latter fails to address the fact that rich people just buy everything, whether that be now or the next time a neo-lib is in office and able to facilitate them doing so. The housing problem cannot be solved without serious redistribution of asset ownership, because as things are, people like myself are absolutely goosed, and any children i may have in the future will be staring serfdom in the face, barring some massive political change.

[Stairway 2 7]

both of these are absolute red herrings IMO.

the former is literally causing an apocalypse, while the latter fails to address the fact that rich people just buy everything, whether that be now or the next time a neo-lib is in office and able to facilitate them doing so. The housing problem cannot be solved without serious redistribution of asset ownership, because as things are, people like myself are absolutely goosed, and any children i may have in the future will be staring serfdom in the face, barring some massive political change.
Planning reform is my number one how for any leader although I don't believe any will. We have one of the lowest amount of homes spare in the world fix that and we help the youth massively.

Forbes hinted she wanted to be similar with Ireland with tax. I disagree with that as its a cop out for business. I realise most would say I'm clearly an idiot as Ireland have just had a massive surplus because of what I've been arguing against and they are going to set up a wealth fund. Then again like Groucho Marx said I would join any party that would have me in it

[AgentDaleCooper]

Planning reform is my number one how for any leader although I don't believe any will. We have one of the lowest amount of homes spare in the world fix that and we help the youth massively.

Forbes hinted she wanted to be similar with Ireland with tax. I disagree with that as its a cop out for business. I realise most would say I'm clearly an idiot as Ireland have just had a massive surplus because of what I've been arguing against and they are going to set up a wealth fund. Then again like Groucho Marx said I would join any party that would have me in it

it would, for a while, then we'll just end up back here again. in the 70s, landlordism was a dirty word even to many conservative politicians. now the best we have is a pseudo-left SNP party who are very comfortable with people accumulating AIRBnB portfolios all over the country, and a Green party intent on jet-skiing over every single shark in existence.

when you say that we have the lowest amount of 'homes spare', is this including second homes and private holiday lets? because in places like Skye, literally 20% of the houses there are empty for 3/4 of the year.

r.e. tax - anyone calling you an idiot for being against Irelands approach is probably an Irish conservative who only care about Ireland's balance books. Norway were no doubt very sensible in stashing their oil money - but is it not worth noting that it's still oil money? Should they, and any other country or person, that has accumulated wealth by contributing to the destruction of the planet not be contributing serious amounts of money to help those who are now feeling the sharp edge of climate change?

equally, what is it that Ireland are propping up with their tax system? essentially, a massive move towards what Varoufakis calls 'technofeudalism', i.e. companies that have grown to become bigger and more powerful than most countries, and that create wealth not through any kind of labour, but by creating a space that they can simply rent out to others, who will do all of the donkey work in terms of R&D. Ireland are essentially just 'doing their bit' to bring about a Black Mirror-esque hellscape, where the super-wealthy can sit back and enjoy their passive income streams while the rest of us are doomed to subsistence and subscriptions in their multitudes.

I probably come across as hysterical on these issues, but I can't see where else we're headed.

[Stairway 2 7]

it would, for a while, then we'll just end up back here again. in the 70s, landlordism was a dirty word even to many conservative politicians. now the best we have is a pseudo-left SNP party who are very comfortable with people accumulating AIRBnB portfolios all over the country, and a Green party intent on jet-skiing over every single shark in existence.

when you say that we have the lowest amount of 'homes spare', is this including second homes and private holiday lets? because in places like Skye, literally 20% of the houses there are empty for 3/4 of the year.

r.e. tax - anyone calling you an idiot for being against Irelands approach is probably an Irish conservative who only care about Ireland's balance books. Norway were no doubt very sensible in stashing their oil money - but is it not worth noting that it's still oil money? Should they, and any other country or person, that has accumulated wealth by contributing to the destruction of the planet not be contributing serious amounts of money to help those who are now feeling the sharp edge of climate change?

equally, what is it that Ireland are propping up with their tax system? essentially, a massive move towards what Varoufakis calls 'technofeudalism', i.e. companies that have grown to become bigger and more powerful than most countries, and that create wealth not through any kind of labour, but by creating a space that they can simply rent out to others, who will do all of the donkey work in terms of R&D. Ireland are essentially just 'doing their bit' to bring about a Black Mirror-esque hellscape, where the super-wealthy can sit back and enjoy their passive income streams while the rest of us are doomed to subsistence and subscriptions in their multitudes.

I probably come across as hysterical on these issues, but I can't see where else we're headed.

On spare homes yes it includes all homes. Scotland on 2% unoccupied is one of the lowest in the oecd. I agree some communities are hammered more than others in rural or tourist areas.

I also agree re Ireland it's a race to the bottom taxing corporations the lowest amount to entice them

[One Day Soon]

On spare homes yes it includes all homes. Scotland on 2% unoccupied is one of the lowest in the oecd. I agree some communities are hammered more than others in rural or tourist areas.

I also agree re Ireland it's a race to the bottom taxing corporations the lowest amount to entice them


There's a great You Tube video somewhere on Ireland's tax strategy and the essentially giant fraud it represents rather than miracle economic transformation. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit, here it is:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wrYwFObiI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5wrYwFObiI)

[Andy Bee]

On spare homes yes it includes all homes. Scotland on 2% unoccupied is one of the lowest in the oecd. I agree some communities are hammered more than others in rural or tourist areas.

I also agree re Ireland it's a race to the bottom taxing corporations the lowest amount to entice them


Off topic I know but if holiday/Air bnb homes are calculated in the spare homes figure, do they fall under being essentially empty and thus charged double council tax after a year?

[Stairway 2 7]

Off topic I know but if holiday/Air bnb homes are calculated in the spare homes figure, do they fall under being essentially empty and thus charged double council tax after a year?

Yes I think so yes which has been a good change brought in by the SNP

[RyeSloan]

it would, for a while, then we'll just end up back here again. in the 70s, landlordism was a dirty word even to many conservative politicians. now the best we have is a pseudo-left SNP party who are very comfortable with people accumulating AIRBnB portfolios all over the country, and a Green party intent on jet-skiing over every single shark in existence.

when you say that we have the lowest amount of 'homes spare', is this including second homes and private holiday lets? because in places like Skye, literally 20% of the houses there are empty for 3/4 of the year.

r.e. tax - anyone calling you an idiot for being against Irelands approach is probably an Irish conservative who only care about Ireland's balance books. Norway were no doubt very sensible in stashing their oil money - but is it not worth noting that it's still oil money? Should they, and any other country or person, that has accumulated wealth by contributing to the destruction of the planet not be contributing serious amounts of money to help those who are now feeling the sharp edge of climate change?

equally, what is it that Ireland are propping up with their tax system? essentially, a massive move towards what Varoufakis calls 'technofeudalism', i.e. companies that have grown to become bigger and more powerful than most countries, and that create wealth not through any kind of labour, but by creating a space that they can simply rent out to others, who will do all of the donkey work in terms of R&D. Ireland are essentially just 'doing their bit' to bring about a Black Mirror-esque hellscape, where the super-wealthy can sit back and enjoy their passive income streams while the rest of us are doomed to subsistence and subscriptions in their multitudes.

I probably come across as hysterical on these issues, but I can't see where else we're headed.

If you had your way what would you be doing to change the above?

[AgentDaleCooper]

If you had your way what would you be doing to change the above?

well firstly i'd point out that the validity of my criticisms don't hinge on whether i have the solutions or not...

but I think there are massive mindset changes that need to take place, and I don't honestly know what one can do other than just engage in conversations like this with other people. with landlordism, i personally think that the consensus needs to change back to it being something that folk feel slightly embarrassed about. i totally get how for some people it might genuinely be their only way of having an income (if someone has physical disabilities, or something), but in general, i think people should feel like they have to justify themselves when they say they are a landlord.

when it comes to AirBnB, just stop it, boycott it, ban it, whatever, i don't care - it's just a social and cultural wrecking ball all over the world and belongs in the sea.

tourism is a really problematic issue, because everyone feels entitled to at least one big holiday a year, and they really don't like it when you point out what that costs. any solutions on this front will be unpopular as things stand, which is why i think all one can really do at this stage is ask people to think seriously about it. one thing i just find mental though, is how you get so many folks that care about the environment, but also love travelling, doing so largely by plane...it's just utterly absurd.

as far as i can see, the facts are that as a species, we've over-indulged in almost every way we can (westerners in particular), and we need to find some way of turning this around, ideally without destroying other environments and cultures in the process.

ultimately, we need to have a international consensus on these things - but we also need a massive wealth tax that would force the owners of massive property portfolios to sell up their assets, which could be bought either by scaffs like myself, or the state, which would find itself with a newly plentiful supply of council housing (which should replace the rental market).

there's no easy answers here, but if you only want easy answers then the problems will never be rooted out.

[lapsedhibee]

well firstly i'd point out that the validity of my criticisms don't hinge on whether i have the solutions or not...

but I think there are massive mindset changes that need to take place, and I don't honestly know what one can do other than just engage in conversations like this with other people. with landlordism, i personally think that the consensus needs to change back to it being something that folk feel slightly embarrassed about. i totally get how for some people it might genuinely be their only way of having an income (if someone has physical disabilities, or something), but in general, i think people should feel like they have to justify themselves when they say they are a landlord.

when it comes to AirBnB, just stop it, boycott it, ban it, whatever, i don't care - it's just a social and cultural wrecking ball all over the world and belongs in the sea.

tourism is a really problematic issue, because everyone feels entitled to at least one big holiday a year, and they really don't like it when you point out what that costs. any solutions on this front will be unpopular as things stand, which is why i think all one can really do at this stage is ask people to think seriously about it. one thing i just find mental though, is how you get so many folks that care about the environment, but also love travelling, doing so largely by plane...it's just utterly absurd.

as far as i can see, the facts are that as a species, we've over-indulged in almost every way we can (westerners in particular), and we need to find some way of turning this around, ideally without destroying other environments and cultures in the process.

ultimately, we need to have a international consensus on these things - but we also need a massive wealth tax that would force the owners of massive property portfolios to sell up their assets, which could be bought either by scaffs like myself, or the state, which would find itself with a newly plentiful supply of council housing (which should replace the rental market).

there's no easy answers here, but if you only want easy answers then the problems will never be rooted out.

Don't disagree with too much in your post but another thing that needs to change in the world is the relatively modern habit of using "the sea" as a place where all sorts of crap belong. This is wrong! :tsk tsk:

[AgentDaleCooper]

Don't disagree with too much in your post but another thing that needs to change in the world is the relatively modern habit of using "the sea" as a place where all sorts of crap belong. This is wrong! :tsk tsk:

haha, you're right actually :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

I disagree with quite a bit..

I agree we have to change many of the above but many doom sayers don't say that net zero is very achievable if we stop being greedy.

For example even if Scots keep the same foreign holidays ect at just change their cars and house heating which they will, we will be net zero. I'm sure we will get net negative for a long time after.

We need to push to get their and obviously Scotland is a grain of sand compared to China's beach of co2 but still

[Moulin Yarns]

Any chance of Fergus Ewing standing against swinney? Might find out how many agree with his view.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I disagree with quite a bit..

I agree we have to change many of the above but many doom sayers don't say that net zero is very achievable if we stop being greedy.

For example even if Scots keep the same foreign holidays ect at just change their cars and house heating which they will, we will be net zero. I'm sure we will get net negative for a long time after.

We need to push to get their and obviously Scotland is a grain of sand compared to China's beach of co2 but still

this is the problem though. the sensible adults in the room make this case - that we can basically keep on going as we have been so long as we learn to be a bit more responsible - but it just seems to me to be significantly underestimating the depth of the rot.

there's also the significant issue of net zero alone not being enough - there's huge amounts of damage already done. how such a net zero is calculated is another problem, as it's absolutely ripe for greenwashing, something that is already harming communities around Scotland.

there was a time where one could think along the lines of "what can you reasonably ask of someone to help protect the environment?", but that time passed around the time that Shell et al discovered climate change and decided to cover it up for as long as they possibly could.

[Stairway 2 7]

Any chance of Fergus Ewing standing against swinney? Might find out how many agree with his view.

You could say the same for every MSP. Ewing wouldn't win the MSPs so he wouldn't stand. I'm confident Forbes would get most votes from members and certain most votes from public but that doesn't matter when they have a death grip culture wars crew putting us into probably 4 more years blethering about everything bar independence

If it was between the two Ewing is useless. But most parties want judged on education as Sturgeon said. I don't think anyone could say Swinney hasn't been the worst education minister in uk history. To take Scotland from being ahead of England to our kids being one year behind in schooling f him he should be doing time for his pushing of curriculum for excellence

[Hibs4185]

My wife is a primary school teacher. She worked for a long time in one of Edinburgh’s highest achieving primary schools.

That school is now completely changed.

She’s now given up on her dreams because schools are just dysfunctional at the money,

getting it right for every child (GIRFEC) and curriculum of excellence had been an absolute disaster.

I said in a seperate thread, I hate the SNP, this is one of the reasons why.

They are a disgrace, but they are a neccessary evil for independence.

Kate Forbes would change that for me, but not to be

[Ozyhibby]

My wife is a primary school teacher. She worked for a long time in one of Edinburgh’s highest achieving primary schools.

That school is now completely changed.

She’s now given up on her dreams because schools are just dysfunctional at the money,

getting it right for every child (GIRFEC) and curriculum of excellence had been an absolute disaster.

I said in a seperate thread, I hate the SNP, this is one of the reasons why.

They are a disgrace, but they are a neccessary evil for independence.

Kate Forbes would change that for me, but not to be

I don’t have any time for the idea of Swinney as the future or as FM. I’m sure he’s a decent man and has some talents.
I’m waiting to see what role Forbes has and how much influence she has on Swinney’s direction of travel. Even without Forbes, I think whoever took over would move back towards the centre just because it was obvious it was a losing strategy. Let’s hope though that the move is sharp and well articulated so that people can see the difference.


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[RyeSloan]

well firstly i'd point out that the validity of my criticisms don't hinge on whether i have the solutions or not...

but I think there are massive mindset changes that need to take place, and I don't honestly know what one can do other than just engage in conversations like this with other people. with landlordism, i personally think that the consensus needs to change back to it being something that folk feel slightly embarrassed about. i totally get how for some people it might genuinely be their only way of having an income (if someone has physical disabilities, or something), but in general, i think people should feel like they have to justify themselves when they say they are a landlord.

when it comes to AirBnB, just stop it, boycott it, ban it, whatever, i don't care - it's just a social and cultural wrecking ball all over the world and belongs in the sea.

tourism is a really problematic issue, because everyone feels entitled to at least one big holiday a year, and they really don't like it when you point out what that costs. any solutions on this front will be unpopular as things stand, which is why i think all one can really do at this stage is ask people to think seriously about it. one thing i just find mental though, is how you get so many folks that care about the environment, but also love travelling, doing so largely by plane...it's just utterly absurd.

as far as i can see, the facts are that as a species, we've over-indulged in almost every way we can (westerners in particular), and we need to find some way of turning this around, ideally without destroying other environments and cultures in the process.

ultimately, we need to have a international consensus on these things - but we also need a massive wealth tax that would force the owners of massive property portfolios to sell up their assets, which could be bought either by scaffs like myself, or the state, which would find itself with a newly plentiful supply of council housing (which should replace the rental market).

there's no easy answers here, but if you only want easy answers then the problems will never be rooted out.

Appreciate the reply.

And you are right, you can certainly decry the state of the nation without being expected to have all the solutions.

I totally agree that there are many contradictions in what people do. I don’t agree that it’s absurd though that people can care deeply about global environmental damage but still go on a holiday. But again I get your point, individual actions do matter and just because Brazil is still felling the rainforest at a rate of knots or China building coal power stations shouldn’t absolve us all of making changes.

If the solutions were easy we might have implemented them already!

It’s probably chat for another thread on another day as I doubt Swinney will be impacting the problems you highlight too much!

[Andy Bee]

A new twist to the leadership contest. https://twitter.com/ILawson27/status/1786535958055141711

He wont win but hopefully he gets the nominations to stand.

[Moulin Yarns]

A new twist to the leadership contest. https://twitter.com/ILawson27/status/1786535958055141711

He wont win but hopefully he gets the nominations to stand.

Who is he? Is he an MSP? Can't seem to find him.

[Andy Bee]

Who is he? Is he an MSP? Can't seem to find him.

Nope, I think he's just a member, obviously he can't be FM but it does open things up for the membership to tie candidates down on strategies and policies. Remains to be seen if he's allowed to run though.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Another problem with Forbes would be that she'd divide the party even more, possibly even leading it to split, as a shift to the right would be extremely unpopular with younger voters and those on the left. There's no way she's going to be solving any of the SNP's problems.

[Ozyhibby]

Another problem with Forbes would be that she'd divide the party even more, possibly even leading it to split, as a shift to the right would be extremely unpopular with younger voters and those on the left. There's no way she's going to be solving any of the SNP's problems.

Shift to the right?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Another problem with Forbes would be that she'd divide the party even more, possibly even leading it to split, as a shift to the right would be extremely unpopular with younger voters and those on the left. There's no way she's going to be solving any of the SNP's problems.

I've not seen any right wing policies from her. She might lose some in the party with the current path into culture wars and trans ideology but that's sending SNP plummeting in the polls.

This GE the voters that the SNP are going to lose compared to last election are mostly going to go to Starmer’s Labour so I don't think the SNP losing votes stands up.

She'd gain more voters than the few she would lose. Young people don't vote really hence parties cater for the older voters, see triple lock being untouchable.

Look at the polling in the Times, no-one who wants independence surely wants another continuity candidate and more years without independence. The majority of Scots are decided Yes or No, the focus should have been on the middle. One poll is best ignored but multiple polls showing the worst SNP figures for almost a decade. More of the same is No voters wet dream

https://archive.ph/3C580
Labour secures greatest lead over the SNP in decade, poll shows
SNP face losing their grip on Westminster and Holyrood as John Swinney prepares to take over as leader after Humza Yousaf quit

Labour is set to leapfrog the SNP at Westminster and Holyrood to become the dominant force in Scottish politics once more after the leadership crisis that forced Humza Yousaf to resign as first minister, a poll for The Sunday Times has found.
The party, led by Anas Sarwar, has achieved its greatest lead over the SNP in almost a decade with the number of nationalist seats at Westminster expected to tumble by about two thirds.
In a seismic reversal of fortunes, the SNP’s streak of four consecutive Scottish parliament election victories would also come to an end with Labour returning to power for the first time since 2007.
The poll by Norstat (formerly Panelbase) — among the first to be conducted since Yousaf stood down — shows the SNP vote share in a Westminster election would collapse to its lowest level since the 2014 independence referendum. The party would hold 15 of its 43 seats with Scottish Labour winning 28, a dramatic increase from its current two

[Andy Bee]

Another problem with Forbes would be that she'd divide the party even more, possibly even leading it to split, as a shift to the right would be extremely unpopular with younger voters and those on the left. There's no way she's going to be solving any of the SNP's problems.


John Swinney put proposals forward to sell Scottish Water, luckily it was voted down at the time.

I've calmed down a lot since this announcement of a Swinney coronation. I made myself a cup of tea, sat and weighed up the facts, pros and cons, taken a balanced view of all the evidence available as one should, to take a calm, reasonable and measured view of the path going forward. My conclusion is John Swinney is a ******* eejit, he's 10 x the continuity candidate Humza ******* Yousaf was, the same continuity that has Indy support at over 50% but SNP above 20 points behind, he has less interest in gaining Independence than Douglas **** Ross, the backbone of a dead box ******* jellyfish and the morals of a bag of ******* rattle snakes.

Robin McAlpine sums my feelings up perfectly, unfortunately it's Salmond interviewing him but it's worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NsJmmneJXw

[Moulin Yarns]

Shift to the right?


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Then a step to the left, let's do the time warp again. 😂

[grunt]

I've calmed down a lot since this announcement of a Swinney coronation.So we see! :greengrin

[MKHIBEE]

John Swinney put proposals forward to sell Scottish Water, luckily it was voted down at the time.

I've calmed down a lot since this announcement of a Swinney coronation. I made myself a cup of tea, sat and weighed up the facts, pros and cons, taken a balanced view of all the evidence available as one should, to take a calm, reasonable and measured view of the path going forward. My conclusion is John Swinney is a ******* eejit, he's 10 x the continuity candidate Humza ******* Yousaf was, the same continuity that has Indy support at over 50% but SNP above 20 points behind, he has less interest in gaining Independence than Douglas **** Ross, the backbone of a dead box ******* jellyfish and the morals of a bag of ******* rattle snakes.

Robin McAlpine sums my feelings up perfectly, unfortunately it's Salmond interviewing him but it's worth a watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NsJmmneJXw

That cup of tea certainly calmed you down then