Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act

[Jim44]

Does this law cover the religious hatred spouted by the Ugly Sisters? Apparently, police officers will be allowed to use discretion. Will they start fighting among themselves or will they strike a deal to continue to turn a deaf ear? :greengrin

[Just Alf]

Can guess... another reason for them to ignore stuff

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1774850188777029842?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

We should listen to this guy, seems to know what he’s talking about.[emoji106]


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[degenerated]

https://x.com/davidghfrost/status/1774850188777029842?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

We should listen to this guy, seems to know what he’s talking about.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHasn't it already been law in England since 1998?

[marinello59]

Does this law cover the religious hatred spouted by the Ugly Sisters? Apparently, police officers will be allowed to use discretion. Will they start fighting among themselves or will they strike a deal to continue to turn a deaf ear? :greengrin

It covers whatever the Scottish Government tells Police Scotland it does. Brilliant legislation, who doesn’t want to see hate outlawed. Took a political giant like Yousaf to achieve that. :greengrin
.

[Ozyhibby]

Hasn't it already been law in England since 1998?

That’s doesn’t matter.
They are trying to whip this up into another culture war issue. Most people don’t really care about it but who knows, they managed to get the whole country terrified of trans people for a while so it might work again.
So far it’s all the usual suspects against. Will be interesting to see if it spreads.


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[degenerated]

That’s doesn’t matter.
They are trying to whip this up into another culture war issue. Most people don’t really care about it but who knows, they managed to get the whole country terrified of trans people for a while so it might work again.
So far it’s all the usual suspects against. Will be interesting to see if it spreads.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBBC news noted that jk Rowling and Elon musk were among critics of the controversial legislation.

[Ozyhibby]

BBC news noted that jk Rowling and Elon musk were among critics of the controversial legislation.

If it spreads at all then Starmer will get Sarwar to back away from it like he did the trans bill, even though he voted for this as well.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Snp Labour and the tories are obsessed with culture wars, don't look here look here. The police saying they will have to look at each report will fall away, especially as some forces are saying they won't deal with minor crimes like theft unless they have cctv.

The tories want us to look at small boats and not the economy. Snp want us to create arguments over stuff like this. It would be wonderful if the put the same effort into independence or education. Sturgeon said judge my party on education. She said that when Scotland was ahead of England in education levels. Scotland has plummeted on education in 10 years and is now well behind England governed by clowns, some subjects kids are 9 months behind now.

Never mind let's all talk about whether someone with a ***** is literally a female and report it to our newly opened reporting centre

[degenerated]

Snp Labour and the tories are obsessed with culture wars, don't look here look here. The police saying they will have to look at each report will fall away, especially as some forces are saying they won't deal with minor crimes like theft unless they have cctv.

The tories want us to look at small boats and not the economy. Snp want us to create arguments over stuff like this. It would be wonderful if the put the same effort into independence or education. Sturgeon said judge my party on education. She said that when Scotland was ahead of England in education levels. Scotland has plummeted on education in 10 years and is now well behind England governed by clowns, some subjects kids are 9 months behind now.

Never mind let's all talk about whether someone with a ***** is literally a female and report it to our newly opened reporting centreThis legislation brings Scotland into line with other parts of the UK, excepting Northern Ireland.
I'm not entirely sure it's the SNP that merit criticism here.

[Ozyhibby]

This legislation brings Scotland into line with other parts of the UK, excepting Northern Ireland.
I'm not entirely sure it's the SNP that merit criticism here.

It’s a bill that was supported by all parties at Holyrood except the Tories and all were involved in its drafting.


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[degenerated]

It’s a bill that was supported by all parties at Holyrood except the Tories and all were involved in its drafting.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSame as most things that the unionists seem to then go on to oppose for political purposes then.

[marinello59]

This legislation brings Scotland into line with other parts of the UK, excepting Northern Ireland.
I'm not entirely sure it's the SNP that merit criticism here.

Aye, that’s the legislation that SNP MPs voted against at the time. I’m not so sure defending it now on the basis we have fallen in to line with the rest of the UK makes it good legislation though. :greengrin

[degenerated]

Aye, that’s the legislation that SNP MPs voted against at the time. I’m not so sure defending it now on the basis we have fallen in to line with the rest of the UK makes it good legislation though. :greengrinAre you sure?

https://care.org.uk/news/2021/03/find-out-how-your-msps-voted-on-the-hate-crime-bill

[marinello59]

Are you sure?

https://care.org.uk/news/2021/03/find-out-how-your-msps-voted-on-the-hate-crime-bill


MPs.
I was referring to the Westminster legislation.

[degenerated]

MPs.
I was referring to the Westminster legislation.I'll take your word for it, was nearly 30 years ago now so can't remember

[Stairway 2 7]

This legislation brings Scotland into line with other parts of the UK, excepting Northern Ireland.
I'm not entirely sure it's the SNP that merit criticism here.

It's not the same the new section about stirring up hatred seems to be the most controversial is added. There is also sections on sexual identity that isn't in uk law. That's what I think Joanna Cherry and women won't wheest are angry about. They think it could be used maliciously against them for having the opinion that trans women aren't women.

They shouldn't have said each report will be checked as the police association have already said they don't have time. You've already got headcases advertising that they have reported JKR and Humza for his Scotland white speech.

I don't think the act changes much bar there will be more logged hate incidents. The level for prosecution is high but lots of people will have hate incidents reported against them most probably warranted.

I don't think SNP deserves any criticism on this alone it's more the fact that they never talk about our awful education collapse or worst drug deaths in Europe, its always culture wars. Why aren't they putting every person on fixing education or housing or our councils who are getting another cut that will effect services and create more homelessness and drug deaths. Preferable to me would be in they even put some of their efforts into getting independence. I'd vote ALBA but they are winning nothing and seem full of nutters

[Ozyhibby]

It's not the same the new section about stirring up hatred seems to be the most controversial is added. There is also sections on sexual identity that isn't in uk law. That's what I think Joanna Cherry and women won't wheest are angry about. They think it could be used maliciously against them for having the opinion that trans women aren't women.

They shouldn't have said each report will be checked as the police association have already said they don't have time. You've already got headcases advertising that they have reported JKR and Humza for his Scotland white speech.

I don't think the act changes much bar there will be more logged hate incidents. The level for prosecution is high but lots of people will have hate incidents reported against them most probably warranted.

I don't think SNP deserves any criticism on this alone it's more the fact that they never talk about our awful education collapse or worst drug deaths in Europe, its always culture wars. Why aren't they putting every person on fixing education or housing or our councils who are getting another cut that will effect services and create more homelessness and drug deaths. Preferable to me would be in they even put some of their efforts into getting independence. I'd vote ALBA but they are winning nothing and seem full of nutters

Agree with the last paragraph (except the alba bit). Party needs to refocus on what actually really matters to voters. It was why I voted Forbes.
Education apart, they do better than Labour and the Tories in every other area (not difficult) but they need to start trying to improve even more. There are still lots of things that can be done. Education and housing the two biggest but the Scottish NHS could do with some serious reform as well. Just because it’s better than England and Wales does not mean it’s good.


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[degenerated]

It's not the same the new section about stirring up hatred seems to be the most controversial is added. There is also sections on sexual identity that isn't in uk law. That's what I think Joanna Cherry and women won't wheest are angry about. They think it could be used maliciously against them for having the opinion that trans women aren't women.

They shouldn't have said each report will be checked as the police association have already said they don't have time. You've already got headcases advertising that they have reported JKR and Humza for his Scotland white speech.

I don't think the act changes much bar there will be more logged hate incidents. The level for prosecution is high but lots of people will have hate incidents reported against them most probably warranted.

I don't think SNP deserves any criticism on this alone it's more the fact that they never talk about our awful education collapse or worst drug deaths in Europe, its always culture wars. Why aren't they putting every person on fixing education or housing or our councils who are getting another cut that will effect services and create more homelessness and drug deaths. Preferable to me would be in they even put some of their efforts into getting independence. I'd vote ALBA but they are winning nothing and seem full of nuttersI'm pretty sure that gender identity is covered by the legislation in England, the crown prosecution service also seems to think so too

27797

[Stairway 2 7]

Agree with the last paragraph (except the alba bit). Party needs to refocus on what actually really matters to voters. It was why I voted Forbes.
Education apart, they do better than Labour and the Tories in every other area (not difficult) but they need to start trying to improve even more. There are still lots of things that can be done. Education and housing the two biggest but the Scottish NHS could do with some serious reform as well. Just because it’s better than England and Wales does not mean it’s good.


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Would you go European style insurance system, they are getting better outcomes for all in some European countries with this. I don't think the British public would accept a two tier system though. One thing is for sure the NHS is toiling, I'm confident that labour will do zero to sort that either.

I was joking about Alba though they are loons. I can't understand why they would chose Alex Salmond as poisonous as his name is. They should have just been plain with a random centre left suit saying give us your second vote to help independence. I'm always hopeful for a labour for independence party to be formed to split labour up here, as long as it didn't cost SNP votes

[Pretty Boy]

Nothing will materially change with the new laws. Someone burgles your house or steals your bike and the police give you a crime number for insurance and that's about it. They are hardly going to have the manpower or the will to investigate every reported hate crime.

There will almost certainly be a high profile case soon to make an example of someone then all the fuss will be quickly forgotten.

[RyeSloan]

Nothing will materially change with the new laws. Someone burgles your house or steals your bike and the police give you a crime number for insurance and that's about it. They are hardly going to have the manpower or the will to investigate every reported hate crime.

There will almost certainly be a high profile case soon to make an example of someone then all the fuss will be quickly forgotten.

Think you’re probably right re your second para.

All seems a bit mixed up with old laws and new laws but the Non Crime Hate Incident thing seems a bit odd to me.

From what I have read (and happy to be corrected as the reporting on this stuff seems all over the place) Someone can take offence at a statement, plod can decide no crime was committed but can then record it as a Non Crime incident without the ‘perp’ even being aware of any complaint or that they have been named as having committed a‘non crime’. Yet such ‘Non Crimes’ can be disclosed as part of background and suitability checks n the like.

I also believe the High Court in England recently ruled against the police recording NCHI’s in this way down south as it was clearly against freedom of speech.


I’m still minded to think all of this comes from a solid intention to try and address hate crimes but as ever trying to define lines and laws between freedom of speech and ‘stirring up hatred’ is a bloomin’ minefield.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKJv0FdXQAAQEJu?format=png&name=small

And yet ..?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GKJ4BucXMAAISxK?format=jpg&name=medium

[Jamesie]

I see from Twitter that the Hibs Club was the venue for the undernoted event:

https://x.com/andrewdoyle_com/status/1772188334325940615

https://x.com/unleashedcomedy/status/1774868134446432321

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1775187161844720015?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

I’m shocked.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://x.com/bbcbreaking/status/1775187161844720015?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

I’m shocked.


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I don't think there was many saying there would be more prosecutions. The question is is this now recorded as a hate crime incident, if so will it be able to be found in a enhanced disclosure check. Will the police have to check each incident as it was reported they would. Its clear you can call a trans women a man without it being a crime but is it logged against you. Load of old nonsense don't know why they can't just call people what they want to be called

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think there was many saying there would be more prosecutions. The question is is this now recorded as a hate crime incident, if so will it be able to be found in a enhanced disclosure check. Will the police have to check each incident as it was reported they would. Its clear you can call a trans women a man without it being a crime but is it logged against you. Load of old nonsense don't know why they can't just call people what they want to be called

Surely the police keep a record of all complaints no matter how ridiculous? If for no other reason so that they can charge serial complainers with wasting police time?
I very much doubt it shows on a disclosure check.

What is very clear is that the billionaire has spent the last few weeks whining about something that is not actually happening. She is a billionaire though so that makes her more important than the rest of us and we must listen to what she says.

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[Berwickhibby]

Surely the police keep a record of all complaints no matter how ridiculous? If for no other reason so that they can charge serial complainers with wasting police time?
I very much doubt it shows on a disclosure check.


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Unless things have changed but only Convictions, Cautions and formal warnings (dunno if done in Scotland) appear on disclosure

[Ozyhibby]

Unless things have changed but only Convictions, Cautions and formal warnings (dunno if done in Scotland) appear on disclosure

That seems entirely sensible.


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[RyeSloan]

Unless things have changed but only Convictions, Cautions and formal warnings (dunno if done in Scotland) appear on disclosure

Kind of true..

A Disclosure Scotland spokesperson said: “Enhanced checks include conviction information and may include other relevant information (ORI).

“ORI is police information about the applicant that the Chief Constable reasonably believes is relevant for the purpose of the disclosure (or) that the information ought to be included on the disclosure certificate.

“This may include reference to non-conviction matters. Disclosure Scotland has no discretion about disclosing ORI.”

So it seems NCHI’s may indeed be included but may not. Adding to the confusion seems to be that the non crime incidents may or may not be anonymised when recorded.

Which all seems to have been the case anyway but the new law may or may not encourage more complaints which may or may not be treated as criminal and when not may or may not be considered a non crime hate incident which the person subject to the complaint may or may not be aware of!

Think I’ve got that right [emoji1787]

[Ozyhibby]

Kind of true..

A Disclosure Scotland spokesperson said: “Enhanced checks include conviction information and may include other relevant information (ORI).

“ORI is police information about the applicant that the Chief Constable reasonably believes is relevant for the purpose of the disclosure (or) that the information ought to be included on the disclosure certificate.

“This may include reference to non-conviction matters. Disclosure Scotland has no discretion about disclosing ORI.”

So it seems NCHI’s may indeed be included but may not. Adding to the confusion seems to be that the non crime incidents may or may not be anonymised when recorded.

Which all seems to have been the case anyway but the new law may or may not encourage more complaints which may or may not be treated as criminal and when not may or may not be considered a non crime hate incident which the person subject to the complaint may or may not be aware of!

Think I’ve got that right [emoji1787]

So a lot of noise being made over nothing?


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[RyeSloan]

So a lot of noise being made over nothing?


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Most probably!

Although from what I’ve read (and to be fair it’s a rather confusing fog!) the legislation is rather vague and Police Scotland don’t seem to fully understand it either.

I suppose time will tell and if it is indeed a guff piece of legislation in terms of how it’s written then it will be tested soon enough.

That said if it’s worrying Coisty that it means thousands of Rangers fans will be reported for stirring up their usual religious hatred then maybe it’s no bad thing [emoji12]

[CropleyWasGod]

Kind of true..

A Disclosure Scotland spokesperson said: “Enhanced checks include conviction information and may include other relevant information (ORI).

“ORI is police information about the applicant that the Chief Constable reasonably believes is relevant for the purpose of the disclosure (or) that the information ought to be included on the disclosure certificate.

“This may include reference to non-conviction matters. Disclosure Scotland has no discretion about disclosing ORI.”

So it seems NCHI’s may indeed be included but may not. Adding to the confusion seems to be that the non crime incidents may or may not be anonymised when recorded.

Which all seems to have been the case anyway but the new law may or may not encourage more complaints which may or may not be treated as criminal and when not may or may not be considered a non crime hate incident which the person subject to the complaint may or may not be aware of!

Think I’ve got that right [emoji1787]

I can't help reading that in a Sir Humphrey Appleby voice. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

I can't help reading that in a Sir Humphrey Appleby voice. :greengrin

[emoji2957] Which maybe sums it all up nicely!

[Stairway 2 7]

Enhanced disclosures have found non criminal hate crime notices previously and can again. No report should be available on an enhanced disclosure if no crime has been committed. JK might try to find out if one has been logged against her name

Police have said they don't have time to record every instance as asked and also it might lose trust in the police.
Ch Supt Hay said: "We might find ourselves in the position where a member of the public feels quite aggrieved for having their details recorded and kept for behaviour that doesn’t meet that criminal threshold.

"So there are two ways potentially that we could damage trust and confidence in the police - around whether the police response meets with expectations, and whether have the police exceeded themselves in involving themselves in non-criminal matters."

[Berwickhibby]

Enhanced disclosures have found non criminal hate crime notices previously and can again. No report should be available on an enhanced disclosure if no crime has been committed. JK might try to find out if one has been logged against her name

Police have said they don't have time to record every instance as asked and also it might lose trust in the police.
Ch Supt Hay said: "We might find ourselves in the position where a member of the public feels quite aggrieved for having their details recorded and kept for behaviour that doesn’t meet that criminal threshold.

"So there are two ways potentially that we could damage trust and confidence in the police - around whether the police response meets with expectations, and whether have the police exceeded themselves in involving themselves in non-criminal matters."

Apart from accidents, police traditionally avoided most non criminal/civil law matters…this imho opens up a minefield of civil litigation at a later date. Most intelligence held by police relates to crime.

[weecounty hibby]

Moved from main board.


He never even mentioned the songs. All he said is it’s likely that likely that he and 50 odd thousand others would likely break it on Sunday. That’s just stating a fact.

The likelihood is that thousands of people will breach it at Easter Road an aw on Saturday.

I can guarantee you that there won't be thousands at ER breaching the bill. What I can also guarantee is that at Ibrox there will be. They will be singing and chanting about religious hatred and racism. We won't. Will anything be done about it, unlikely. But every journey starts with a small step and actually McCoist may have helped by bringing this to the attention of a wider audience rather than just in Scotland where it is sadly tolerated by the media.

The outrage caused by this is laughable. Yet again the same people keep telling us that Scotland is unique in not being abke to bring in laws like this. Similar to the one already in place in England by the way.The same people had the same issues with the GRA and bottle return scheme. Go figure!! Any time I am on the other side to Murdo Fraser, Tommy Robinson, Manky Jaiket, Scottish Family Party, Ally McCoist and 50,000 other Huns etc I'll be ok with that. It is another example of folk not understanding what is in the bill. Without getting too political it was supported in Holyrood by every party, including one Tory. But suddenly the media see an opportunity to bash the Scottish government and put out false information which is seized upon by the usual suspects. There is an interview with a professor from Glasgiw Uni, totally unbiased on the matter, that explains ut well and also why the furore is a load of nonsense.

[Moulin Yarns]

A by product of JK rowling calling India Willoughby a man.


At one point the death threats against Willoughby got so bad that the UK’s counter-terrorism unit got involved.

[Stairway 2 7]

A by product of JK rowling calling India Willoughby a man.


At one point the death threats against Willoughby got so bad that the UK’s counter-terrorism unit got involved.

Same for the death threats to JK both extremes of the debate are lunatics. People should have the freedom to both think people can change sex and can't, it's not really a big deal. As long as its still illegal to wish harm or harm someone for their choices which it is thankfully. I'd personally call someone whatever they want to be called but it shouldn't be illegal to believe you can't change sex. 55 charges of aggravated prejudice against trans in Scotland last year, down 36% from the year before which was 5% lower than the year before that. Still 55 to many buts it's tiny compared to 722 against people with disabilities, which you here zero about. 1884 against sexual orientation, 570 against religious preference, 3150 against race shockingly.

What percentage of each crime takes up the news I think some is shockingly unreported, race figures certainly sickens me

The small number of trans people are being used by all parties to keep us looking away from the country being a disaster.

[Ozyhibby]

Same for the death threats to JK both extremes of the debate are lunatics. People should have the freedom to both think people can change sex and can't, it's not really a big deal. As long as its still illegal to wish harm or harm someone for their choices which it is thankfully. I'd personally call someone whatever they want to be called but it shouldn't be illegal to believe you can't change sex. 55 charges of aggravated prejudice against trans in Scotland last year, down 36% from the year before which was 5% lower than the year before that. Still 55 to many buts it's tiny compared to 722 against people with disabilities, which you here zero about. 1884 against sexual orientation, 570 against religious preference, 3150 against race shockingly.

What percentage of each crime takes up the news I think some is shockingly unreported, race figures certainly sickens me

The small number of trans people are being used by all parties to keep us looking away from the country being a disaster.

Why does JK Rowling feel the need to comment publicly on India Willoubhy at all? Weird. You would think she would have more going on in her life?


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[superfurryhibby]

Same for the death threats to JK both extremes of the debate are lunatics. People should have the freedom to both think people can change sex and can't, it's not really a big deal. As long as its still illegal to wish harm or harm someone for their choices which it is thankfully. I'd personally call someone whatever they want to be called but it shouldn't be illegal to believe you can't change sex. 55 charges of aggravated prejudice against trans in Scotland last year, down 36% from the year before which was 5% lower than the year before that. Still 55 to many buts it's tiny compared to 722 against people with disabilities, which you here zero about. 1884 against sexual orientation, 570 against religious preference, 3150 against race shockingly.

What percentage of each crime takes up the news I think some is shockingly unreported, race figures certainly sickens me

The small number of trans people are being used by all parties to keep us looking away from the country being a disaster.

I agree with the gist of this post.

Thought crime is useful way of stifling discussion and very alarming. The reporting bias you mention says it all really about our media and it's priorities.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why does JK Rowling feel the need to comment publicly on India Willoubhy at all? Weird. You would think she would have more going on in her life?


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Willoughby called the police on JK over tweets and they have
been arguing since like two loons. Joanna Cherry then called the police in January because IW said she wants to stick JK and Cherry in the back of a van. They are best ignored I think both thrive of the attention even though the death threats both have received are obviously terrible.

Papers like celebrity arguments though

[CropleyWasGod]

Why does JK Rowling feel the need to comment publicly on India Willoubhy at all? Weird. You would think she would have more going on in her life?


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...like the trees in her garden which are a constant pain to the people of Cramond. :greengrin

[grunt]

Willoughby called the police on JK over tweets and they have been arguing since like two loons. Joanna Cherry then called the police in January because IW said she wants to stick JK and Cherry in the back of a van. They are best ignored I think both thrive of the attention even though the death threats both have received are obviously terrible.

Papers like celebrity arguments though
I've completely lost any respect for this woman over the last few years. She seems to have forgotten which party she represents.

[Moulin Yarns]

...like the trees in her garden which are a constant pain to the people of Cramond. :greengrin

Particularly the ones Killiechassie, by Aberfeldy 😉

[Stairway 2 7]

I've completely lost any respect for this woman over the last few years. She seems to have forgotten which party she represents.

The party of independence. She had an article today in the national saying, if the SNP put half the effort it does into culture wars as it did to independence since 2014, we might be not stuck in the same place in the polls 10 years later.

I just went on SNPs twitter just now and gave up after 50 posts looking for them mentioning independence, being better than tories, brexit, Gaza, environment. They are all important but all can be bettered by independence which should be there raison d'etre and front and centre of everything. It's like they are content with their jobs and being better than the tories as a part of the UK. We missed a huge chance with the worst tory party in my life. Independence will be harder under Labour especially if they create closer ties to Europe. To much time and court cases spent on things that would have been easily sorted after Independence