VAR again

[ChuckNor]

Regardless of that win, we should be going to the SFA again over that offside call from VAR. The blue line drawn does not land where they have put it. Scandalous decision once again.

[Carheenlea]

They’ve had their fun with it. Now can we please just get our game back.

[Unseen work]

Really feel for Vente.

I’ve gave him a bit of stick but great movement and finish.

2 in a game would have been a huge boost for him.

[ChuckNor]

Really feel for Vente.

I’ve gave him a bit of stick but great movement and finish.

2 in a game would have been a huge boost for him.

Robbed. That goal was perfectly legitimate. Farcical from VAR. It is always us that get the **** calls.

[Hibbyradge]

Regardless of that win, we should be going to the SFA again over that offside call from VAR. The blue line drawn does not land where they have put it. Scandalous decision once again.

Isn't it computer generated?

There's no chance the officials just put a line there so they could rule out a Hibs goal.

[weecounty hibby]

Not seen it but FFS Beaton on the park + VAR. What a combination. Beaton was a complete joke from start to finish. The linesmen were awful as well.

[Carheenlea]

Really feel for Vente.

I’ve gave him a bit of stick but great movement and finish.

2 in a game would have been a huge boost for him.

The whole dynamic of the game shifted on that dodgy call. You go from 2 up and playing well and a striker getting his mojo back to effectively giving the opposition a goal that keeps them in the game and they get a lift from that and ultimately go on and get an equaliser.

Thankfully we showed a lot of spirit and thanks to some top drawer play from Maolida we do go on to earn a well deserved win.

VAR is having far too much influence in how games are playing out. It’s having much more influence than simply being a digital pair of eyes for the referee.

They’ve tried it, it’s not working how they thought it might - just do the right thing and abandon the project.

[ChuckNor]

Isn't it computer generated?

There's no chance the officials just put a line there so they could rule out a Hibs goal.

No the officials in the room draw the lines. That’s why it takes so long.

[Carheenlea]

No the officials in the room draw the lines. That’s why it takes so long.

It’s not football as we know it. Basically a game of FIFA on the XBox.

[Hibbyradge]

No the officials in the room draw the lines. That’s why it takes so long.

They use technology.

"Using the virtual offside technology, the VAR will place a line on the second last defender and the attacking player who potentially committed the offside offence."

[B.H.F.C]

They use technology.

"Using the virtual offside technology, the VAR will place a line on the second last defender and the attacking player who potentially committed the offside offence."

They still need to place the line though.

[Kato]

At least its not a curved one this time.

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[Dashing Bob S]

I don't like VAR. But it's reminded how much I really detest Scottish referees and their biased, incompetent ways.

[CapitalGreen]

They use technology.

"Using the virtual offside technology, the VAR will place a line on the second last defender and the attacking player who potentially committed the offside offence."

The VAR is a person not a computer.

[Kato]

I don't like VAR. But it's reminded how much I really detest Scottish referees and their biased, incompetent ways.You needed a reminder?

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[ChilliEater]

They still need to place the line though.

And when to pause the video - until we have cameras working at around 1000 frames per second in ultra-mega-super high resolution we can't be sure the pause happens as the pass is played - and is the pass played when the players foot first contacts the ball or when the ball leaves his foot? If we're going with the idea that offside is an absolute yes or no decision, then we have to have the required level of technology, and clarification of the law, to correctly rule on it. Under the pre-VAR version of the rule, Vente is inline and, therefore, onside.

[Hibbyradge]

The VAR is a person not a computer.

I know. But they use technology to determine and draw the lines.

[HibbyAndy]

And when to pause the video - until we have cameras working at around 1000 frames per second in ultra-mega-super high resolution we can't be sure the pause happens as the pass is played - and is the pass played when the players foot first contacts the ball or when the ball leaves his foot? If we're going with the idea that offside is an absolute yes or no decision, then we have to have the required level of technology, and clarification of the law, to correctly rule on it. Under the pre-VAR version of the rule, Vente is inline and, therefore, onside.

Spot on

[Hibee Mac]

They use technology.

"Using the virtual offside technology, the VAR will place a line on the second last defender and the attacking player who potentially committed the offside offence."It's drawn by a person using a mouse on a computer. They choose which point is the furthest forward on the player and use a mouse to click it, then the computer estimates the relative position on the pitch and draws the line(also estimated using a handful of long range cameras in the ground.)

So still a human element, and a good amount of margin for error. If the person in the studio clicks on the wrong body part or the wrong place on the screen then it could cause a relatively large error.

Ive said since the beginning the margin for error should be accounted for by adding a thickness to the line drawn. It's very easy to statistically calculate what the error is and convert that into a line thickness. Then if the lines overlap in any way the goal should be given as it's too close to definitively say.



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[where'stheslope]

What would life be like without VAR, just look at last nights game Partick V Dumfermline.
Partick score, linesman happily running back to halfway line, ref gives the goal then Dumfermline players surround the ref, he goes over to the linesman and has a chat?
Verdict offside? On viewing it on TV, there was a defection, but it was a Dunfermline player so goal should have stood?
If VAR was present it would have stood, but, players crowding the ref sways his decision?
It just comes down to poor officials, nothing else!!!

[He's here!]

Isn't it computer generated?

There's no chance the officials just put a line there so they could rule out a Hibs goal.

I used to assume it was computer generated so as to eliminate human error but it's not. I fail to see the point of it as it's as susceptible to controversy as what we had before.

[givescotlandfreedom]

[A27718
Doesn't it need to be a part of the body you can score with to be deemed offside?

[andrew_dundee]

The thing that would improve VAR would be where tech allows (like at Easter Road), fans should be able to see on the screens what the ref is seeing.

I've not seen it yet but in the stadium you are left having to trust that the refs know what they're doing.

[Hibbyradge]

[A27718
Doesn't it need to be a part of the body you can score with to be deemed offside?

You can score with your shoulder. That's where the red line starts.

[Kato]

You can score with your shoulder. That's where the red line starts.As someone else pointed out the photo is worthless as it doesn't show the pass.

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[Keith_M]

I had the perfect view from the West Lower and there's no way that was offside.

When the ball was played in, Vente was exactly in line with the defender.

[Skol]

You can score with your shoulder. That's where the red line starts.

Looks like its drawn from both elbows

[Hibbyradge]

The thing that would improve VAR would be where tech allows (like at Easter Road), fans should be able to see on the screens what the ref is seeing.

I've not seen it yet but in the stadium you are left having to trust that the refs know what they're doing.

100%

[Hibbyradge]

Looks like its drawn from both elbows

It goes up to the shoulders.

[Sparrows tongue]

It's ruining Scottish football - time to say goodbye.

[Keith_M]

It's ruining Scottish football - time to say goodbye.


:agree:

[Hibee Mac]

It's ruining Scottish football - time to say goodbye.I absolutely can't stand the way VAR has changed the game. That being said, I still think there is a place for it going forward but only if both the offside and handball rules are changed.

Handball is easier to fix, as Stuart Lovell said today maybe we need to bring back the "intentional" definition to the rule.

Offside is harder, but it needs to be significantly changed if we are to keep VAR.

What we have now simply does not work for fans.

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[ChuckNor]

The other we should be calling out was VAR desperately searching for a penalty when disallowing Curtis Main’s offside goal.

[grunt]

That being said, I still think there is a place for it going forward but only if both the offside and handball rules are changed.

Offside is harder, but it needs to be significantly changed if we are to keep VAR.

What if we just binned the offside rule altogether?

[Hibbyradge]

What if we just binned the offside rule altogether?

That would definitely ruin football.

[Sioux]

I absolutely can't stand the way VAR has changed the game. That being said, I still think there is a place for it going forward but only if both the offside and handball rules are changed.

Handball is easier to fix, as Stuart Lovell said today maybe we need to bring back the "intentional" definition to the rule.

Offside is harder, but it needs to be significantly changed if we are to keep VAR.

What we have now simply does not work for fans.

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What change would that be?

[big gogs]

Really feel for Vente.

I’ve gave him a bit of stick but great movement and finish.

2 in a game would have been a huge boost for him.
The vente goal should have stood,I had 3-1 hibs win in the work sweep,still 3 points and a win .not a bad day .

[ruthven_raiders]

What change would that be?

The upcoming experiment for offside where the whole body has to be clear of defender, will hopefully stop this current nonsense

[ekhibee]

For me if you've got poor quality referees in your league you're going to get poor VAR decisions. Unlike a lot of others I wouldn't have a problem with VAR if we had decent referees making unbiased decisions, but we don't.

[Pretty Boy]

It's utter *****.

I'd go back to a game with no VAR and contentious decisions over a game with VAR and contentious decisions anyday.

[Springbank]

Incredibly I'm going to defend John Beaton here (while heavily criticising var)

Honestly, if the lines were so close & so controversial (when the on field decision was goal) the var steer to today's ref (whoever it may have been) should have been "mate this is tight, do you want to look on the screen before making a call?"

[Mike Berry]

It is a ridiculous decision, but happens every week around the country.

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[Norrieg]

That would definitely ruin football.
Why would it ruin footbal ????. I agree with the poster. It would open the game up. It's a stupid rule and it would stop defenders being lazy *******s and using it to their advantage and maybe make them play a bit more. Plus more goals would be scored. Is that not the ultimate aim in a game of footbal. Goals, Goals Goals.!!!!!!!
What the **** do I know :confused:

[Northernhibee]

How on earth was Rangers fourth goal not given as handball? Comes off his arm and sets up the goal on a plate.

[Smartie]

Is there scope to use fatter lines, bring back the concept of being “level” (even if someone is offside or onside by a matter of centimetres) and adapt accordingly?

These Scottish decisions just feel so tin pot.

FWIW - that’s a very close call, a tough one for officials so I have a degree of sympathy for them here, whatever they decide. It’s not like last week’s, which was a disgrace.

[Scottie]

How on earth was Rangers fourth goal not given as handball? Comes off his arm and sets up the goal on a plate.
Because it’s the Huns. Boy was playing volleyball with it

[MWHIBBIES]

How on earth was Rangers fourth goal not given as handball? Comes off his arm and sets up the goal on a plate.

Thing about that is it's not a subjective decision. If it hits a hand of an attacking player before a goal, it's disallowed. No matter the intent or circumstances.

[Stanton Spence]

A perfect example of what used to be deemed level and on side. VAR had took level out of the game

[Hibee Mac]

What change would that be?Good question, hard to say exactly how to fix offside, don't want to repeat myself too much but I posted earlier in the thread about the margin for error and how it should be accounted for with thicker lines calculated based on what the specific margin for error is.

That way if the lines are touching then it's onside, end of story. You would still get calls where there is a tiny gap in between lines called offside but it would be far more acceptable to most when you'd be able to see with your own eyes the attacker is past the defender.

Not sure if it's a proper fix because the more I think about it how are the linesman in real time meant to referee it without var.... maybe not a foolproof solution after all ....

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[Victor]

The other we should be calling out was VAR desperately searching for a penalty when disallowing Curtis Main’s offside goal.

Agree. Kevin Harper (on Hibs TV) was unhappy with that also. As he said, they were meant to be looking at offside and then just go and check if they can find something else to hit us with. Total nonsense.


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[Kato]

Why would it ruin footbal ????. I agree with the poster. It would open the game up. It's a stupid rule and it would stop defenders being lazy *******s and using it to their advantage and maybe make them play a bit more. Plus more goals would be scored. Is that not the ultimate aim in a game of footbal. Goals, Goals Goals.!!!!!!!
What the **** do I know :confused:




It would open the game up so much that strikers would just hang around in the opposition box so defenders would have to hang around their own box. No more clever midfield play, no precise slide-rule passes with strikers running behind into space, no need for wingers taking on fullbacks as getting in behind wouldn't be necessary, a stretched out game of longbangers with players jostling around trying to win second balls. A bit like Rangers 1973/Alex MacDonalds jambos.

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[lyonhibs]

It's utter *****.

I'd go back to a game with no VAR and contentious decisions over a game with VAR and contentious decisions anyday.

This was always the case. At least in the old days you could say "OK, they don't have the benefit of replays".

Despise it. Goal line technology and intervening in cases of missed serious foul play off the ball only.

[Paul1642]

That would definitely ruin football.

Correct. Arsene Wenger’s proposition on the other hand is exactly what the game needs IMO.

[Jones28]

Lines touching must mean level. The game is dying.

[Donegal Hibby]

It's ruining Scottish football - time to say goodbye.

:agree: Far to many games we are discussing VAR decisions instead of the football . It's been a disaster from day 1 and hasn't improved , if anything I think it's gotten worse .

[s.a.m]

This was always the case. At least in the old days you could say "OK, they don't have the benefit of replays".

Despise it. Goal line technology and intervening in cases of missed serious foul play off the ball only.

:aok::top marks:aok:

[Libby Hibby]

It’s quite simple really.

Any Hibs goal, needs to reviewed over and over to check if the minutest infringement has occurred to rule it out.

Any venture into the Hibs box by any opposition needs to reviewed over and over to check if the minutest infringement has occurred to award the opposition any positive decision for them.

It’s that blatant.

[Hibbyradge]

Why would it ruin footbal ????. I agree with the poster. It would open the game up. It's a stupid rule and it would stop defenders being lazy *******s and using it to their advantage and maybe make them play a bit more. Plus more goals would be scored. Is that not the ultimate aim in a game of footbal. Goals, Goals Goals.!!!!!!!
What the **** do I know :confused:






If there was no offside, teams would just have big strapping goal hangers standing in the 18 yard box, or the 6 yard box and the ball would be hoofed up towards them.

The midfield would be bypassed and actual skill would disappear.

[Hibbyradge]

Agree. Kevin Harper (on Hibs TV) was unhappy with that also. As he said, they were meant to be looking at offside and then just go and check if they can find something else to hit us with. Total nonsense.


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It was Stuart Lovell.

[Hibbyradge]

It would open the game up so much that strikers would just hang around in the opposition box so defenders would have to hang around their own box. No more clever midfield play, no precise slide-rule passes with strikers running behind into space, no need for wingers taking on fullbacks as getting in behind wouldn't be necessary, a stretched out game of longbangers with players jostling around trying to win second balls. A bit like Rangers 1973/Alex MacDonalds jambos.

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I should have read the thread before replying much the same.

[Kato]

I should have read the thread before replying much the same.No worries, hr. When they had games in the 70s with an offside line across an extended 18 yard line the experiment showed what would happen. Once players got used to it just shove a striker on that line and look for knockdowns. No offside at all would be even worse.

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[truehibernian]

Beaton will be utterly raging too - clear foul on Hibs player at 1-1 allowing a Dundee attack. 30 seconds later 2-1 Hibs 😂 Nae luck Johnny Boy !!

[greenlex]

No worries, hr. When they had games in the 70s with an offside line across an extended 18 yard line the experiment showed what would happen. Once players got used to it just shove a striker on that line and look for knockdowns. No offside at all would be even worse.

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The Dryburgh Cup. I enjoyed that competition. It eliminated midfield slogfests. Really opened the games up. Stretching the midfield giving players space. It was no coincidence that the flair teams did really well in that competition.

[Kato]

The Dryburgh Cup. I enjoyed that competition. It eliminated midfield slogfests. Really opened the games up. Stretching the midfield giving players space. It was no coincidence that the flair teams did really well in that competition.Ok when it was a few games at the start of each season. Each year in, the football got more of an aerial battle and if football were played like that in every match game by game it would eradicate the need for most of the skills in midfield and just become a game for giants.

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[Hibbyradge]

No worries, hr. When they had games in the 70s with an offside line across an extended 18 yard line the experiment showed what would happen. Once players got used to it just shove a striker on that line and look for knockdowns. No offside at all would be even worse.

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I remember that. Didn't they try that in the Dryborough Cup?

[Kato]

I remember that. Didn't they try that in the Dryborough Cup?And in some LC section games iirc. Never took off.

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[Carheenlea]

Keep the pressure on - Lodge our concerns privately, receive an apology publicly.

Retain our dignity while exposing the farce of VAR.

[truehibernian]

Keep the pressure on - Lodge our concerns privately, receive an apology publicly.

Retain our dignity while exposing the farce of VAR.

Key word there being “Lodge” 😂

[SerenityGreen]

And when to pause the video - until we have cameras working at around 1000 frames per second in ultra-mega-super high resolution we can't be sure the pause happens as the pass is played - and is the pass played when the players foot first contacts the ball or when the ball leaves his foot? If we're going with the idea that offside is an absolute yes or no decision, then we have to have the required level of technology, and clarification of the law, to correctly rule on it. Under the pre-VAR version of the rule, Vente is inline and, therefore, onside.

Good post and comments, I just watched and agree the offside against Vente is about as contentious as you could get. the lines were almost on top of each other. The pause and framing can make all the difference. I couldn't for the life of me imagine VAR ruling out that for the The Rangers. The pause and framing would have been one frame different to make it onside.

[ddoc]

The off-side rule needs changing.
We watch football to be entertained and goals are what we want to see.
Calls like this are just ludicrous and the benefit should go with the attacker, not the defender.
The sooner they change off-side being called when the whole body is in front of the last defender the better as far as I am concerned.
VAR intervention would be easy then.

[MartinfaePorty]

Is there not a trial going on in one of the European leagues that are giving goals if it's within a thicker line, i.e., they aren't drawing the thinner lines? I sincerely hope so.

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[mcohibs]

The sooner they change off-side being called when the whole body is in front of the last defender the better as far as I am concerned.
VAR intervention would be easy then.

Won’t change a thing. Offside is binary, either onside or offside will always be by a millimetre. You can change where you draw the line but it will always be a case of millimetres.

[Criswell]

VAR is panning out just like I predicted. It would be used to give certain clubs every advantage and used to butcher other clubs; Hibs being the principal case in point. If it was seen in any other way the authorities would ditch it in an instant.

[JohnM1875]

[A27718
Doesn't it need to be a part of the body you can score with to be deemed offside?

It’s honestly killing the game ☹️

[Carheenlea]

One of the great skills of the game was beating the offside trap by keeping level with your defensive opponents.

Level - Not being forensically examined to look for a stray elbow or shoelace that has breached a line that some dullard sat in a stuffy cupboard somewhere has drawn across a computer screen- but level.

A once great skill has now become obsolete. The benefit of the doubt was always thought to be given to the attacking team. Now defence is king. VAR is anti football.

[jakedance]

I’ve just watched the highlights back and can’t see what possible penalty award they were looking for with Dundee’s disallowed goal. Clear as day they’re looking for something that wasn’t there, rather than taking another look at something they’ve seen (which is fair enough). There is so much evidence we’re getting shafted by VAR.

As other posters have said, offside is easily fixed by thicker lines which, if overlapped at all would favour the attacking team as being level.

[JohnM1875]

I’ve just watched the highlights back and can’t see what possible penalty award they were looking for with Dundee’s disallowed goal. Clear as day they’re looking for something that wasn’t there, rather than taking another look at something they’ve seen (which is fair enough). There is so much evidence we’re getting shafted by VAR.

As other posters have said, offside is easily fixed by thicker lines which, if overlapped at all would favour the attacking team as being level.

That was actually mental, looking for a possible foul, no wonder folk are paranoid about refs being against us.

[Hibbyradge]

I’ve just watched the highlights back and can’t see what possible penalty award they were looking for with Dundee’s disallowed goal.


I don't think they were looking for a penalty incident at all, rather it was a mistake by the screen operator.

[jakedance]

I don't think they were looking for a penalty incident at all, rather it was a mistake by the screen operator.

You could be right there but that just shows how bad VAR is for the paying supporter. We’ve not got much of a clue what is going on.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think they were looking for a penalty incident at all, rather it was a mistake by the screen operator.

Why did they take 5 minutes for an offside 4 meters off

[Sergio sledge]

Lines touching must mean level. The game is dying.

Yeah that’s where I am with it. If the two lines are touching or overlapping then the attacker gets the benefit of the doubt. Should only be offside if there’s a gap between the lines.

[JimBHibees]

Yeah that’s where I am with it. If the two lines are touching or overlapping then the attacker gets the benefit of the doubt. Should only be offside if there’s a gap between the lines.

Agree with that needs to be more given to attacking team ruling out good goals by inches or because the technology isn’t reliable doesn’t imo help the spirit of the game

[JimBHibees]

I don't think they were looking for a penalty incident at all, rather it was a mistake by the screen operator.

Why would you think that?

[JimBHibees]

Why did they take 5 minutes for an offside 4 meters off

Yep if only checking for offside wouldn’t have lasted so long

[grunt]

That would definitely ruin football.
Well it's a good job that VAR isn't ruining football then.

[BoomtownHibees]

I don't think they were looking for a penalty incident at all, rather it was a mistake by the screen operator.

I thought the same at the time tbh. Or a mistake by the stadium announcer

[La Machine Vert]

[A27718
Doesn't it need to be a part of the body you can score with to be deemed offside?

The rules state...
The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered. For the purposes of determining offside, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit.

Our VAR refs draw their lines from the arms/hands.
Are they using their artistic license to determine the lines or just don't know the rules?

[JohnM1875]

Is it next season they’re trialing the Wenger rule for offside? Think that sounds better than the current mess.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

That was actually mental, looking for a possible foul, no wonder folk are paranoid about refs being against us.

And the Rocky one early on that quite clearly hit his chest. A good 2 or 3 mins checking to see if it hit his arm. Compare that with a 10 second check on Aberdeens blatant hand ball last week. Farce

[Booked4Being-Ugly]

And the Rocky one early on that quite clearly hit his chest. A good 2 or 3 mins checking to see if it hit his arm. Compare that with a 10 second check on Aberdeens blatant hand ball last week. Farce

Was going to post the exact same thing. My gut feeling is refs and Var officials are going out their way to find something that isn’t there. Why did last weeks hand ball not stop play to be scrutinised for 2/3 mins. Was blatantly the same against Celtic as well.

[sleeping giant]

And the Rocky one early on that quite clearly hit his chest. A good 2 or 3 mins checking to see if it hit his arm. Compare that with a 10 second check on Aberdeens blatant hand ball last week. Farce

TBF , I'm not sure they were checking Rocky there. I think they were checking Fish. Looked like the ball hit his right arm just inside the box.
It was right in front of me and I was sure it was going to be a penalty.

[007]

TBF , I'm not sure they were checking Rocky there. I think they were checking Fish. Looked like the ball hit his right arm just inside the box.
It was right in front of me and I was sure it was going to be a penalty.

The Will Fish one was well outside the box but you never know when it comes to officials/VAR looking for something to penalise us for.

https://i.ibb.co/HFbWHPs/Screenshot-20240225-223222-BBC-i-Player.jpg (https://ibb.co/0D6gG9S)

[Moulin Yarns]

What if we just binned the offside rule altogether?

Remember the '70s? Offside only from the 18 yard line in the league cup.

[Kato]

Remember the '70s? Offside only from the 18 yard line in the league cup.You don't have to remember the 70s, only earlier in this thread. [emoji2]

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[RyeSloan]

You don't have to remember the 70s, only earlier in this thread. [emoji2]

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[emoji1787][emoji1787]

[Alan62]

Incredibly I'm going to defend John Beaton here (while heavily criticising var)

Honestly, if the lines were so close & so controversial (when the on field decision was goal) the var steer to today's ref (whoever it may have been) should have been "mate this is tight, do you want to look on the screen before making a call?"

The ref isn't getting to review offside decisions though because they've convinced themselves that the 'technology' is absolute and that the lines categorically define whether you're offside or not. It's junk and it has to end. The clubs need to stand up to this because it's ruining their product and putting fans off.

[Not In The Know]

[A27718
Doesn't it need to be a part of the body you can score with to be deemed offside?


The real issue I have with these calls and I cant believe it isn't debated enough is - who decides when to pause it and that's the still image to use? 3-4 frames earlier (.25 seconds!) and Vente is miles onside.

[Kato]

The real issue I have with these calls and I cant believe it isn't debated enough is - who decides when to pause it and that's the still image to use? 3-4 frames earlier (.25 seconds!) and Vente is miles onside.It doesn't include the touch for the pass at all so it's completely useless.

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[Hibernian Verse]

From SFA website;

"If the lines do not overlap or touch, showing the attacker was either behind or in line with the defender, and show that the player was onside, or if the two lines do overlap, the on-field decision will be overturned and the goal will stand."

[RyeSloan]

It doesn't include the touch for the pass at all so it's completely useless.

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Compared to the wide frame views you get from England it’s a bit tin pot that’s for sure.

That said from the highlights and my top notch pausing on my TV this looks pretty accurate and I reckon it was the right call based on the rules as they are just now. Very tight but none the less offside.

[Kato]

Compared to the wide frame views you get from England it’s a bit tin pot that’s for sure.

That said from the highlights and my top notch pausing on my TV this looks pretty accurate and I reckon it was the right call based on the rules as they are just now. Very tight but none the less offside.Check two posts above, R.

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[RyeSloan]

Check two posts above, R.

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So to be clear the rules DO state that if the lines touch then it’s considered onside?

If so then the lines clearly are touching as there is zero visible gap and therefore we were done?

[easty]

From SFA website;

"If the lines do not overlap or touch, showing the attacker was either behind or in line with the defender, and show that the player was onside, or if the two lines do overlap, the on-field decision will be overturned and the goal will stand."

Is that the rule for everyone though, or just for Rangers and Celtc?

[Kato]

So to be clear the rules DO state that if the lines touch then it’s considered onside?

If so then the lines clearly are touching as there is zero visible gap and therefore we were done?Seems so. We're gaslit so often it's hard to tell if we're going for sh--- or a haircut.

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[B.H.F.C]

One of the great skills of the game was beating the offside trap by keeping level with your defensive opponents.

Level - Not being forensically examined to look for a stray elbow or shoelace that has breached a line that some dullard sat in a stuffy cupboard somewhere has drawn across a computer screen- but level.

A once great skill has now become obsolete. The benefit of the doubt was always thought to be given to the attacking team. Now defence is king. VAR is anti football.

Some of the greatest goal scorers in the history of the game would have had so many less goals to their name if playing in this era.

[wookie70]

Won’t change a thing. Offside is binary, either onside or offside will always be by a millimetre. You can change where you draw the line but it will always be a case of millimetres.In theory but the technology is nowhere near fast enough or detailed enough for that theory to be reality. For what it is worth I think Vente was off but I'd like to see accurate as possible measure of accuracy calculated and for that to be in the attackers favour

[Kato]

In theory but the technology is nowhere near fast enough or detailed enough for that theory to be reality. For what it is worth I think Vente was off but I'd like to see accurate as possible measure of accuracy calculated and for that to be in the attackers favourThe actual rules say he was onside.

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[matty_f]

Good post and comments, I just watched and agree the offside against Vente is about as contentious as you could get. the lines were almost on top of each other. The pause and framing can make all the difference. I couldn't for the life of me imagine VAR ruling out that for the The Rangers. The pause and framing would have been one frame different to make it onside.

Rangers had a similar one where they scored against Motherwell. The goal was given, obviously.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Some of the greatest goal scorers in the history of the game would have had so many less goals to their name if playing in this era.

Pippo Inzaghi would still be waiting to get his first senior goal.

[SHODAN]

https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article28858246.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_Heart-of-Midlothian-v-Hibernian-FC-Cinch-Scottish-Premiership.jpg

Get ready to see this countless times on Wednesday.

[matty_f]

27726

[jakedance]

https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article28858246.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/0_Heart-of-Midlothian-v-Hibernian-FC-Cinch-Scottish-Premiership.jpg

Get ready to see this countless times on Wednesday.

Can Rocky play with his arms taped to his sides, apparently the only natural position they can be.

[RyeSloan]

27726

No way that Motherwell line is from the armpit either!

Ach we didn’t expect anything else but for the rules to be bent as far as possible for the OF, VAR or not

[HoboHarry]

Can Rocky play with his arms taped to his sides, apparently the only natural position they can be.
The term natural position is about as ridiculous as it comes. No two players run or jump in the same manner and whenever I see defenders forced into running with their arms behind their back its clear the lawmakers have failed utterly.

[Centre Hawf]

It doesn't include the touch for the pass at all so it's completely useless.

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This will be be a boring thing to add to the conversation but I imagine they have a timecode on another camera angle that shows the moment of the kick they want to take it from and they'll just match it up to the same timecode on the angle that shows the offside/onside. That's at least how I imagine it should work.

[Kato]

This will be be a boring thing to add to the conversation but I imagine they have a timecode on another camera angle that shows the moment of the kick they want to take it from and they'll just match it up to the same timecode on the angle that shows the offside/onside. That's at least how I imagine it should work.How we imagine it works and how it is filtered through the interpretation of all those Glasgow based officials will be two completely different things, I imagine.

Why should we have to imagine when the pass is being made? Completely unprofessional.

Why do we have to imagine what Boyles' offside in the semi-final looked like? A camera actually at a proper angle would help and sans a curved line which took five minutes for some weegie crumb-ball to draw.

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[Edinburgh Green]

[A27718
Doesn't it need to be a part of the body you can score with to be deemed offside?

Who decides where the vertical dotted line stops? There is no reference point at all that would accurately stop the dotted line when it hits the grass.

[Onion]

VAR is the biggest **** up to hit Scottish football in decades. Not because of what it's aiming to do, but because of the way it is implements and applied up here. It absolutely suffocates the life out of those moments that fans value most - great goals and spontaneity. It's often said the best referees are those you don't notice. Up here, referees use VAR to shine a big ****ing great spotlight on themselves - feeding their own arrogant, sense of self-importance. "Everyone look at me, while I take 4 minutes to decide what I want to do with your team/fans/player/manager."

At the Dundee game, time and again, I found myself forced to watch the referee's reaction for 3 -4 minutes after each Hibs goal and when they were "checking for penalty/offside/handball/bad hair day" - whatever might be used to penalise Hibs. The game has become a treasure hunt for west coast officials, looking for any excuse to screw you over - and great football moments are being sidelined and diluted. VAR is a mess that WILL drive fans from the game, and it needs to STOP.

[Donegal Hibby]

Spoke to a Everton fan today and he said watching the championship games as been far more enjoyable to watch basically because theres no VAR in it , I felt the same way whenever I've watched the Scottish championship games too.

[Trinity Hibee]

Spoke to a Everton fan today and he said watching the championship games as been far more enjoyable to watch basically because theres no VAR in it , I felt the same way whenever I've watched the Scottish championship games too.

Can understand that completely.

[Hibbyradge]

No way that Motherwell line is from the armpit either!



Shouldn't it be from the outside edge of the shoulder?

[Smartie]

Spoke to a Everton fan today and he said watching the championship games as been far more enjoyable to watch basically because theres no VAR in it , I felt the same way whenever I've watched the Scottish championship games too.

I watched the Championship game on Friday night and tbh I had mixed feelings.

There were a couple of big calls for goals... one dodgier than the other... but they were the sort that you'd expect VAR to sort out. It didn't feel entirely right to see an obvious mistake (albeit one that is easy to make in real time) not being rectified and an obvious injustice being carried out.

A lot of the stuff with VAR is still open to opinion. That offside call at the weekend - there's a bawhair in it and it has to go one way or the other. I do think the refs bring a lot of trouble on themselves but I'm much more ambivalent about the offside call at the weekend than I have been about many other calls (such as the handball nonsense at Pittodrie the previous week).

[where'stheslope]

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!
The Carabao Cup Final, Liverpool goal chocked off for technical offside???
The player standing in offside position moved back onside when the kick was taken and prevented a defender from attacking the ball??
Player who scored was always onside.
New rule or just made up to suit the game?????

[RyeSloan]

Shouldn't it be from the outside edge of the shoulder?

Don’t think so…maybe conflating the T-shirt line for hand ball.

The FA has the following for offside:

The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered. For the purposes of determining offside, the upper boundary of the arm is in line with the bottom of the armpit.


Quite what Scotland uses for VAR is clearly open to debate!

[linlithgowhibbie]

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!
The Carabao Cup Final, Liverpool goal chocked off for technical offside???
The player standing in offside position moved back onside when the kick was taken and prevented a defender from attacking the ball??
Player who scored was always onside.
New rule or just made up to suit the game?????

In fairness I thought the Liverpool player who blocked the Chelsea player knew exactly what he was doing, he is not looking at the ball and is looking directly at the defender. He obstructs the defender deliberately whilst the ball is no where near them, so imho defo a foul.
PS don't support either team.

[007]

27726

Looks like the line is covering the Rangers players toes.

[Kato]

Looks like the line is covering the Rangers players toes.That gives Hearts players quite an advantage.


https://i.ibb.co/ysJnLhW/artflow-202305042156.jpg (https://ibb.co/HgQDmNn)

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[Tyler Durden]

HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!
The Carabao Cup Final, Liverpool goal chocked off for technical offside???
The player standing in offside position moved back onside when the kick was taken and prevented a defender from attacking the ball??
Player who scored was always onside.
New rule or just made up to suit the game?????

I don’t really get the confusion around this. Someone in an offside position who interferes with play is typically penalised - nothing new about it

[Bridge hibs]

That gives Hearts players quite an advantage.


https://i.ibb.co/ysJnLhW/artflow-202305042156.jpg (https://ibb.co/HgQDmNn)

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[Carheenlea]

That gives Hearts players quite an advantage.


https://i.ibb.co/ysJnLhW/artflow-202305042156.jpg (https://ibb.co/HgQDmNn)



:hilarious

[Bakerman]

Shouldn't it be from the outside edge of the shoulder?

Cricket my old lord. or old radge? :greengrin Outside edge it just isn't cricket, or football these days. Who knows, apart from the guy in the van.

[Carheenlea]

Would VAR be improved if when it came to making decisions the use of lines being drawn across computer screens was discarded?

If they look at a goal to try and investigate an offside and just look at the rerun, or freeze the frame if they wish, and a player looks right online with the defender then call it as being bang on line. If you need to spend time analysing angles and lines to microscopic levels to come to your decision it doesn’t justify any believed infringement.

When an outside agency has eliminated what was one of the great skills for strikers in springing offside traps and playing off the shoulder of defenders, alarm bells must surely be ringing.

The art of staying in line with the last defender has been lost to the game.

[B.H.F.C]

The penalty not given for hand ball in the Ross County v St Mirren just shows how bad the referees are. How the VAR isn’t flagging that up is beyond belief. Similar to our hand ball the other week, the referee on the pitch should just see it in the first place though.

[JimBHibees]

The penalty not given for hand ball in the Ross County v St Mirren just shows how bad the referees are. How the VAR isn’t flagging that up is beyond belief. Similar to our hand ball the other week, the referee on the pitch should just see it in the first place though.

Appalling decision. One look at that would have been enough. Obviously watching the Rangers highlights from the weekend

[Paul1642]

It was mentioned at the AGM that most referees in Scotland are still part time which has got me thinking. The standard of refereeing is really affecting our game right now (arguably always has but more obvious due to VAR.

How much would it actually cost to bring them up to full time which would surely see an increase in competence?

VAR is costing 1.2 million per season. Fag packet maths says we could have 15 full time refs on 40k a year (seems fair?) for £600k. That’s not £600k extra as we are already paying them a part time amount, although I have no idea how much that might be.

If we applied the same sliding scale as VAR this would probably work out around an extra £50k per season for the team in 3rd and down closer to £30k for those at the bottom. These figures might be lower depending on current wages.

Considering the financial cost of being out out a cup or fishing 1 place lower in the league due to one or more incorrect refereeing decisions (i appreciate the flip side that for every team that loses out another gains), I would be all for this and find it hard to believe with the amount of money in our game these days that this hasn’t already happened. Having a £1.2 million per season VAR set up to support part time refs and manned by part time staff seems daft.

[HoboHarry]

It was mentioned at the AGM that most referees in Scotland are still part time which has got me thinking. The standard of refereeing is really affecting our game right now (arguably always has but more obvious due to VAR.

How much would it actually cost to bring them up to full time which would surely see an increase in competence?

VAR is costing 1.2 million per season. Fag packet maths says we could have 15 full time refs on 40k a year (seems fair?) for £600k. That’s not £600k extra as we are already paying them a part time amount, although I have no idea how much that might be.

If we applied the same sliding scale as VAR this would probably work out around an extra £50k per season for the team in 3rd and down closer to £30k for those at the bottom. These figures might be lower depending on current wages.

Considering the financial cost of being out out a cup or fishing 1 place lower in the league due to one or more incorrect refereeing decisions (i appreciate the flip side that for every team that loses out another gains), I would be all for this and find it hard to believe with the amount of money in our game these days that this hasn’t already happened. Having a £1.2 million per season VAR set up to support part time refs and manned by part time staff seems daft.
It will take more than just making them full time to improve the standard IMHO. Promoting the current referees isn't going to change a thing, the whole refereeing organisation needs to be disbanded and properly re-built which would include promoting the best referees from the whole of Scotland and not just those from Glasgow and Lanarkshire.

[Danderhall Hibs]

It was mentioned at the AGM that most referees in Scotland are still part time which has got me thinking. The standard of refereeing is really affecting our game right now (arguably always has but more obvious due to VAR.

How much would it actually cost to bring them up to full time which would surely see an increase in competence?

VAR is costing 1.2 million per season. Fag packet maths says we could have 15 full time refs on 40k a year (seems fair?) for £600k. That’s not £600k extra as we are already paying them a part time amount, although I have no idea how much that might be.

If we applied the same sliding scale as VAR this would probably work out around an extra £50k per season for the team in 3rd and down closer to £30k for those at the bottom. These figures might be lower depending on current wages.

Considering the financial cost of being out out a cup or fishing 1 place lower in the league due to one or more incorrect refereeing decisions (i appreciate the flip side that for every team that loses out another gains), I would be all for this and find it hard to believe with the amount of money in our game these days that this hasn’t already happened. Having a £1.2 million per season VAR set up to support part time refs and manned by part time staff seems daft.

The current refs couldn’t afford to take that pay cut. Already have a full time job and get £800 per game (that figure is a couple of seasons old).

Instead of giving them excuses we should be performance managing them. We need more for wages like that - we even took the “only got one view” excuse away and it’s made little difference.

[Criswell]

The penalty not given for hand ball in the Ross County v St Mirren just shows how bad the referees are. How the VAR isn’t flagging that up is beyond belief. Similar to our hand ball the other week, the referee on the pitch should just see it in the first place though.

The impression I have is that VAR are only seriously involved in games where certain teams are playing. We all know who they are. Most other games VAR doesn't seem to bother much about scrutinising decisions. The exception seems to be Hibs games, when they are on our case constantly.

[houstonhibbee]

Just get rid of everything Scottish - VAR and Referees - and bring back foreign referees - Cypriot or whatever....................problems solved

[JimBHibees]

It will take more than just making them full time to improve the standard IMHO. Promoting the current referees isn't going to change a thing, the whole refereeing organisation needs to be disbanded and properly re-built which would include promoting the best referees from the whole of Scotland and not just those from Glasgow and Lanarkshire.

Too much like common sense

[JimBHibees]

The impression I have is that VAR are only seriously involved in games where certain teams are playing. We all know who they are. Most other games VAR doesn't seem to bother much about scrutinising decisions. The exception seems to be Hibs games, when they are on our case constantly.

Don't think that is an impression it is reality.

[Hibs4185]

Without a doubt full time referees is the way forward but you also need full time assistants and 4th officials.

Brendan Rodgers commented on our refereeing when asked about warnock taking the Aberdeen job. It’s holding the game back up here no doubt.

I’ve said numerous times before, as the refs are part time, they aren’t relying on refereeing to pay their bills and support their families.

If refereeing was their main source of income and poor performance could see them demoted or ultimately sacked and therefore unable to support their families, no matter their allegiance, you’d soon see an improvement across the board.

Also, if they go into work on a Monday morning and you have to face rangers or Celtic fans, they hardly want the flak from colleagues and customers.

[Aldo]

The penalty not given for hand ball in the Ross County v St Mirren just shows how bad the referees are. How the VAR isn’t flagging that up is beyond belief. Similar to our hand ball the other week, the referee on the pitch should just see it in the first place though.

Saw it this morning and they didn’t even look at the handball only the jersey pull! WTF

[Callum_62]

Without a doubt full time referees is the way forward but you also need full time assistants and 4th officials.

Brendan Rodgers commented on our refereeing when asked about warnock taking the Aberdeen job. It’s holding the game back up here no doubt.

I’ve said numerous times before, as the refs are part time, they aren’t relying on refereeing to pay their bills and support their families.

If refereeing was their main source of income and poor performance could see them demoted or ultimately sacked and therefore unable to support their families, no matter their allegiance, you’d soon see an improvement across the board.

Also, if they go into work on a Monday morning and you have to face rangers or Celtic fans, they hardly want the flak from colleagues and customers.The guy in VAR last night was a full time VAR ref - didn't do st Mirren any good [emoji50]

On second thoughts that might just mean his part time job of referring is full time on VAR?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Just get rid of everything Scottish - VAR and Referees - and bring back foreign referees - Cypriot or whatever....................problems solved

Aye.

Us Scots are incompetent. I wouldn't employ a Scot to empty my bins.

Give me a good old Englishman or someone from Greece.

Give me a Stuart Attwell anyday.

Or even better, Byron Moreno.

Scots? Cuh. You're having a laugh.

[blackpoolhibs]

A cheat who is a Scottish ref will still cheat whether he's part time or full time.

[Itsnoteasy]

The guy in VAR last night was a full time VAR ref - didn't do st Mirren any good [emoji50]

On second thoughts that might just mean his part time job of referring is full time on VAR?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Their response to not giving a penalty was they were looking at a tug on the shirt and not at a hand ball. Strange as when a goal is scored and its dubious they look for offside, hand ball, shirt tug, obstruction. Anything not to give the goal.

[Callum_62]

Their response to not giving a penalty was they were looking at a tug on the shirt and not at a hand ball. Strange as when a goal is scored and its dubious they look for offside, hand ball, shirt tug, obstruction. Anything not to give the goal.Even stranger as the guys arm is imitating him waving doon a bus!

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Carheenlea]

I think the part time arrangement would actually be preferable to full time referees.

Referees involved full time with Scottish Football can only encompass them into the Old Firm centric bubble and influence even further. At least the part time arrange my keeps them at semi arms length.

“Professional” referees in Scotland is a dangerous road to be going down..

[RyeSloan]

Their response to not giving a penalty was they were looking at a tug on the shirt and not at a hand ball. Strange as when a goal is scored and its dubious they look for offside, hand ball, shirt tug, obstruction. Anything not to give the goal.

Mental.

Not just because the attacker did have his shirt half pulled off his back but the hand ball was part of exactly the same play.

You could argue what they have if the short pull incident somehow distracted them from a separate play later but as it was the same play how can you not notice that there is a very likely hand ball at the same time!

The Sky replays are very clear as well…it should have been a very quick and easy decision.

To have missed the whole thing completely and not even looked at it is simply inexcusable and inexplicable.

[number9dream]

Mental.

Not just because the attacker did have his shirt half pulled off his back but the hand ball was part of exactly the same play.

You could argue what they have if the short pull incident somehow distracted them from a separate play later but as it was the same play how can you not notice that there is a very likely hand ball at the same time!

The Sky replays are very clear as well…it should have been a very quick and easy decision.

To have missed the whole thing completely and not even looked at it is simply inexcusable and inexplicable.

To offer ‘we were only looking at the shirt pull’ as some kind of explanation is tantamount to an admission of error. It’s absolutely absurd that all the officials - on and off the pitch - have missed that.
It should have been cleared up inside 30 seconds, as should the Devlin handball at Pittodrie.

[Hibernian Verse]

It was mentioned at the AGM that most referees in Scotland are still part time which has got me thinking. The standard of refereeing is really affecting our game right now (arguably always has but more obvious due to VAR.

How much would it actually cost to bring them up to full time which would surely see an increase in competence?

VAR is costing 1.2 million per season. Fag packet maths says we could have 15 full time refs on 40k a year (seems fair?) for £600k. That’s not £600k extra as we are already paying them a part time amount, although I have no idea how much that might be.

If we applied the same sliding scale as VAR this would probably work out around an extra £50k per season for the team in 3rd and down closer to £30k for those at the bottom. These figures might be lower depending on current wages.

Considering the financial cost of being out out a cup or fishing 1 place lower in the league due to one or more incorrect refereeing decisions (i appreciate the flip side that for every team that loses out another gains), I would be all for this and find it hard to believe with the amount of money in our game these days that this hasn’t already happened. Having a £1.2 million per season VAR set up to support part time refs and manned by part time staff seems daft.

40k a year to be abused for 90 mins and in some cases threatened by Rangers & Celtic fans in the post and in person when "out of work".

Think you'd be laughed out the room for that sorry. £40k isn't as good a salary as it used to be, you'd need to be paying these guys 70k+ like they do down South. More likely around the 100 mark for Grade 1.

[Donegal Hibby]

The whole refereeing organisation has to be restructured with new referees trained from ALL parts of Scotland not the club it is now from just certain areas. There's also quite a few of the current ones that have got massive game changing decisions repeatedly wrong that should hang up their whistles for the good of the game.

It's not just in Scotland fans are complaining about VAR too which imo isn't all down to VAR but new rules that are complicating the game to much like the handball and offside rule . Now there's talk of a blue card as well , its all going beyond a joke in my opinion. I'd like to see football go back to the old rule for handball . Wengers came up with this one for offside which I wonder what your views are on it ?.

https://www.sportsadda.com/football/features/what-is-the-wenger-law

I'd personally like to see VAR totally scraped myself as it's clearly not working or is adding anything positive to the game and is unlikely to do so in the future when you have clowns like Crawford Allan telling you it's working well.:rolleyes:

[BoomtownHibees]

Mental.

Not just because the attacker did have his shirt half pulled off his back but the hand ball was part of exactly the same play.

You could argue what they have if the short pull incident somehow distracted them from a separate play later but as it was the same play how can you not notice that there is a very likely hand ball at the same time!

The Sky replays are very clear as well…it should have been a very quick and easy decision.

To have missed the whole thing completely and not even looked at it is simply inexcusable and inexplicable.

Shouldn’t even have had to go to VAR. Referee on the pitch should have saw it but these guys don’t seem to want to give many decisions anymore

[RyeSloan]

Shouldn’t even have had to go to VAR. Referee on the pitch should have saw it but these guys don’t seem to want to give many decisions anymore

To be fair to the ref (no laughing at the back) it could easily have looked like it hit his head and actually when you see the replay it just only brush his hand.

It’s handball for sure and the TV pictures prove that but can see why in field it might not have looked like that.

In the end of the day that what VAR is meant to be there for and it failed miserably.

[where'stheslope]

In fairness I thought the Liverpool player who blocked the Chelsea player knew exactly what he was doing, he is not looking at the ball and is looking directly at the defender. He obstructs the defender deliberately whilst the ball is no where near them, so imho defo a foul.
PS don't support either team.
So why call it technical offside, it would be a foul???
By the way, the same thing happens at corners all the time and nothing given???

[Hibernian Verse]

So why call it technical offside, it would be a foul???
By the way, the same thing happens at corners all the time and nothing given???

He's interfering with play and the offside occurs before the foul.

Agree tho.

[LunasBoots]

So why call it technical offside, it would be a foul???
By the way, the same thing happens at corners all the time and nothing given???

Yup same thing happens up and down the country and across Europe but you don't see them given as offside, seems to be another rule used in the occasional game but not all.

[Slateford Hibee]

VAR official should have 10 seconds to make an offside call. Any longer it's not clear and obvious. 30 seconds for bad challenges. It should also be shown on the big screens most grounds have. That saves the time the ref takes going to the minitor and keeps the fans envolved.

[gbhibby]

The whole refereeing organisation has to be restructured with new referees trained from ALL parts of Scotland not the club it is now from just certain areas. There's also quite a few of the current ones that have got massive game changing decisions repeatedly wrong that should hang up their whistles for the good of the game.

It's not just in Scotland fans are complaining about VAR too which imo isn't all down to VAR but new rules that are complicating the game to much like the handball and offside rule . Now there's talk of a blue card as well , its all going beyond a joke in my opinion. I'd like to see football go back to the old rule for handball . Wengers came up with this one for offside which I wonder what your views are on it ?.

https://www.sportsadda.com/football/features/what-is-the-wenger-law

I'd personally like to see VAR totally scraped myself as it's clearly not working or is adding anything positive to the game and is unlikely to do so in the future when you have clowns like Crawford Allan telling you it's working well.:rolleyes:
I have been advocating the Wenger offside a long as hibs net has been in operation. The game is about goals. There will still have to be lines drawn but it will favour the attacking team. You find in the majority of cases the attacking player's body weight is angled forward and the defender is either upright or angled forward away from goal. The current offside rule is ruining the game.

[GreenCastle]

Not enough refs in Scotland which means the many bad : average ones are fast tracked and we end up with current inconsistent incompetence and zero accountability.

If we had more refs then we could have more promotion / demotion like England but we don’t. So get stuck with the same cliquey set up.

The current refs don’t deserve a pay rise so not sure full time is the way forward - maybe simply recruiting more refs ?

Always bring up the fact the higher up you are in the league the more you pay for VAR - so Celtic and Rangers pay more for the service than the rest of the league ! That doesn’t sit well with me.

[Tyler Durden]

Yup same thing happens up and down the country and across Europe but you don't see them given as offside, seems to be another rule used in the occasional game but not all.

The same thing doesn't happen. If an offside player blocks someone, it would be a foul. There have been numerous other examples given this season.

Players often stand offside and then get back on side. Or they start from an onside position and block others. Endo's approach would always be given as an infringement.

[Tyler Durden]

So why call it technical offside, it would be a foul???
By the way, the same thing happens at corners all the time and nothing given???

You can't be offside from a corner.

It's a technical offside because the referee has to decide whether he thinks the player has interfered and become active. You can stand offside and not be considered active/offside. If you block someone then you'll be penalised 9 times out of 10.

[HoboHarry]

Not enough refs in Scotland which means the many bad : average ones are fast tracked and we end up with current inconsistent incompetence and zero accountability.

If we had more refs then we could have more promotion / demotion like England but we don’t. So get stuck with the same cliquey set up.

The current refs don’t deserve a pay rise so not sure full time is the way forward - maybe simply recruiting more refs ?

Always bring up the fact the higher up you are in the league the more you pay for VAR - so Celtic and Rangers pay more for the service than the rest of the league ! That doesn’t sit well with me.
I've said a million times there are plenty of good referees in Scotland but they are sidelined because they live in the wrong geographical area.

[Moulin Yarns]

VAR official should have 10 seconds to make an offside call. Any longer it's not clear and obvious. 30 seconds for bad challenges. It should also be shown on the big screens most grounds have. That saves the time the ref takes going to the minitor and keeps the fans envolved.

Going to the minitor is a load of bull. I'm a amazed anyone thinks differently. 😉

[O'Rourke3]

I've said a million times there are plenty of good referees in Scotland but they are sidelined because they live in the wrong geographical area.There are Grade 1 refs in every association in Scotland. This is not the issue. Only one association gets big games

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[Donegal Hibby]

I have been advocating the Wenger offside a long as hibs net has been in operation. The game is about goals. There will still have to be lines drawn but it will favour the attacking team. You find in the majority of cases the attacking player's body weight is angled forward and the defender is either upright or angled forward away from goal. The current offside rule is ruining the game.

I think most fans would agree the current rule is , some of the goals thats getting ruled out like Ventes is crazy. Maybe this one would make things easier for VAR and more exciting for fans too.

[Carheenlea]

I think most fans would agree the current rule is , some of the goals thats getting ruled out like Ventes is crazy. Maybe this one would make things easier for VAR and more exciting for fans too.

Skill is being replaced by luck.
How anyone who loves the game can think that is a good thing is bewildering.

A sport player on a pitch around 7000 meters square surely doesn’t require fine margins of millimetres to determine rulings.

[Eyrie]

Going to the minitor is a load of bull. I'm a mazed anyone thinks differently. 😉

You're getting very Creteive with the puns there.

[SlickShoes]

Robbed again

[Bishop Hibee]

Corrupt.

[Manxhibs]

Should walk off the pitch tbh

[overdrive]

Clancy is a cheat.

[Paul1642]

I seem to post similar on this thread every other week but I f****** give up

[Trinity Hibee]

Sorry but I’m done with this. Ruined a very good Hibs performance

[Northernhibee]

Tbf VAR pulled up Clancy on it.

Clancy is a ****ing ****bag.

[MWHIBBIES]

Nothing to do with VAR

The ref gave it and then gave it again.

Var did its job perfectly. Gave the ref a chance to change his mind on an absolutely woeful decision. He didn't.

['mon the beers]

I really can’t face going to games just now as you don’t know what the refs are going to dream up next.

Clancy was referred for a check and then doesn’t see Vargas chucking himself to the floor?!?! The game is finished.

[SteveHFC]

Nothing to do with VAR

The ref gave it and then gave it again.

Var did its job perfectly. Gave the ref a chance to change his mind on an absolutely woeful decision. He didn't.

We should be calling out the SFA and Var again. How many **** ups will it take to get it sorted.

[Scottie]

The club need to grow a pair and call this out. That is a disgraceful decision. There is a hidden agenda against us make no bones about it.

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

You can't blame VAR for an arrogant pea head refusing to believe he could be wrong

Technology said the decision was dubious

[Greensunshine]

How a defender can switch off in his own box is beyond me!

Fish was the master of his own downfall.

Gave the referee two penalty decisions to make, neither were penalties!

It’s no easy being a Hibee! Raging! 😡

[LunasBoots]

Goes down like he's been run over by a steam engine, games done if that's a penalty,l

[ChuckNor]

Hibs have to publicly call this out. It’s gone beyond a joke. Referees are targeting us.

[greenlex]

You can't blame VAR for an arrogant pea head refusing to believe he could be wrong

Technology said the decision was dubious
It’s actually saying the decision is incorrect. Come and have a look at this you ****ing Donkey.

[hfcok]

It’s corrupt referees

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/craig_c83/status/1762939918773326140?t=kmGwd7NUtuyyTKlBy2wyqg&s=19

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[KWJ]

That's one of the worst referring decisions I've ever seen. To stick by it when it's replayed in front of him over and over is incredible. He should be sacked at half time.

VAR can only do so much!

[DaveF]

https://twitter.com/craig_c83/status/1762939918773326140?t=kmGwd7NUtuyyTKlBy2wyqg&s=19

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You simply can't look at that again and still give a penalty. It's not even close to a foul and the hearts boy should be booked.

It's just cheating. Simple as that.

[Slateford Hibee]

Would the two cheeks concede a penalty like that? Refs are given a chance to correct their mistake and too pig headed to think they could be wrong. Very poor from clancy.

[JimBHibees]

It’s corrupt referees

Yep he has been Hearts best player. Absolutely incredible what we have to deal with with these gimps. Shambolic decision.

[Pretty Boy]

That's not VAR. VAR has done it's job this time and all but told the ref he has made a mistake.

That's an arrogant prick refusing to accept he has made an error and correct it.

Game is corrupt. Anyone arguing otherwise now has their head in the sand.

[Moulin Yarns]

We have to know, was the penalty for first hearts player falling to the ground or the second one...

[gaz1875]

Terrible decision, but what the **** is Fish doing there, terrible defending.

[LunasBoots]

We have to know, was the penalty for first hearts player falling to the ground or the second one...

Second one

[Moulin Yarns]

Second one

Aye, the one with no contact

[Posh Swanny]

How many soft pens is that against us this season? St Mirren have had 3, Celtic 3, Hearts 2, Aberdeen 1. Some less contentious than others but ******ing hell, there are more than a few shockers in there!

[Not In The Know]

Also how ridiculous is it that the VAR monitor at Tinycastle is surround by hearts fans. They can actually watch it with the ref. How’s that impartial and letting a ref take tame to make a decision. Tin pot!

[Donegal Hibby]

Sorry for dragging up a old thread though I thought I'd put up Motherwell's statement regarding VAR in their recent game against Aberdeen .

Found it interesting that they say the feedback they've got from their fans has been mainly negative concerning VAR and if there was a vote not to use it again most would vote not too .

Do most Hibs fans feel the same way ? .

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/03/20/statement-on-var-decision-against-aberdeen/

[Joe6-2]

I’d rather see it stay, in an ideal world and honest refs it could only be a good thing, but at least it’s highlighting the disgraceful decisions being made and hopefully with enough calling out the cheating and utter incompetence things might, just might change

[Kato]

Sorry for dragging up a old thread though I thought I'd put up Motherwell's statement regarding VAR in their recent game against Aberdeen .

Found it interesting that they say the feedback they've got from their fans has been mainly negative concerning VAR and if there was a vote not to use it again most would vote not too .

Do most Hibs fans feel the same way ? .

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/03/20/statement-on-var-decision-against-aberdeen/Refs getting off with fans blaming the device rather than those who control it.

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[Donegal Hibby]

Refs getting off with fans blaming the device rather than those who control it.

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Problem is though nothings going to be done on the Ref situation in Scotland so what's the point sticking with the device when it's never going to be used correctly and only adds more frustration in games for fans anyhow.

[Kato]

Problem is though nothings going to be done on the Ref situation in Scotland so what's the point sticking with the device when it's never going to be used correctly and only adds more frustration in games for fans anyhow.They do what they want. They have always done whatever they wanted. They will always do whatever they want.

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[matty_f]

Sorry for dragging up a old thread though I thought I'd put up Motherwell's statement regarding VAR in their recent game against Aberdeen .

Found it interesting that they say the feedback they've got from their fans has been mainly negative concerning VAR and if there was a vote not to use it again most would vote not too .

Do most Hibs fans feel the same way ? .

https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2024/03/20/statement-on-var-decision-against-aberdeen/
I have to say that the handball rule, where so long as it’s not the scorer that handles it, is ridiculous. You could theoretically punch the ball to a teammate to score, and when watched back on VAR they’ve to ignore it. Mental.

[ancient hibee]

Problem is though nothings going to be done on the Ref situation in Scotland so what's the point sticking with the device when it's never going to be used correctly and only adds more frustration in games for fans anyhow.

The clubs have to provide most of the finance for this. Eventually they’ll do something about the standard of refereeing .

[number9dream]

I have to say that the handball rule, where so long as it’s not the scorer that handles it, is ridiculous. You could theoretically punch the ball to a teammate to score, and when watched back on VAR they’ve to ignore it. Mental.

Not quite since deliberate handball is a foul in any given situation… Motherwell do make a valid point on the wildly inconsistent way the rules are being applied though. That’s not really a VAR issue though.

[matty_f]

Not quite since deliberate handball is a foul in any given situation… Motherwell do make a valid point on the wildly inconsistent way the rules are being applied though. That’s not really a VAR issue though.

It’s not under scope of var though so if the ref misses it live then it’s ignored.

[Libby Hibby]

I like the idea of VAR. 100% needs reviewed as to who is using it and how they administer the laws of the game when looking at it.

You just need to look at the recent Hibs v Rangers game and Motherwell v Aberdeen game as to how it can be applied differently to teams playing in the same game. Ludicrous

[nonshinyfinish]

It’s not under scope of var though so if the ref misses it live then it’s ignored.

Surely it's the same as any other foul in the build up, so if a goal is scored then it can be checked?

[snedzuk]

Surely it's the same as any other foul in the build up, so if a goal is scored then it can be checked?

Like, say, a throw in taken 15 yards from where the ball went out that leads directly to a last minute equalizer - nothing to see here.

[Tyler Durden]

It’s not under scope of var though so if the ref misses it live then it’s ignored.

Nah - it would be checked as part of a goal being scored.

I hate the handball rule but the way it's designed has some logic... bear with me. Remember when handballs were only punished if deliberate. You had John Terry diving along the ground and regularly the ball would hit his arms. But he could claim it wasn't deliberate. So they've come up with this "unnatural position" of the hand thing to try to counter that. And it's just gone massively too far the other way.

The Motherwell one should simply be a goal. It's absolutely right that if someone accidentally handballs it and then a team mate scores, the goal should stand. This is like St Mirren's penalty at Easter Road - an example where the refs seem to not know/understand the rules.

For the Hibs vs St Mirren example the ref/VAR should be considering that the ball struck Triantis's body/leg first. Therefore no penalty. For the Motherwell example, they seem to be applying the handball rule as if Motherwell are the defending team. It's just rank incompetence by multiple referees on a regular basis.

[snedzuk]

The clubs have to provide most of the finance for this. Eventually they’ll do something about the standard of refereeing .

And/or the standard of the system. I noticed the first VAR camera I'd been close to at the back of the stand at Ross County which got me thinking about the awful angles and the funky lines used in offside decisions (see Martin Boyle v Aberdeen).

It turns out 'VAR lite' (Scotland) operates with six to eight cameras (it is possible - somehow - to have compliant VAR with four cameras). To put that into context, the following quote is from 'inside FIFA' talking about the world cup.

"The video assistant referee team has access to 21 cameras in the Group Stage, Round of 16 and Match 63, of which one is super slow motion and one is ultra slow motion. For the Quarter Finals the VAR team has access to 22 cameras, of which one is super slow motion and three are ultra slow motion and for the Semi-Finals & the Final, they have access to 25 cameras, of which three are super slow motion and three are ultra slow motion."

Clubs voted for this and how to pay for it and the question that also arises is how they continue paying for it. Apparently you pay more depending on league position. Itd be interesting to know the terms of this deal and how the camera providers are tied into it. If youre a cash strapped Livingston, almost guaranteed to get relegated, the temptation to find bills you dont pay must be pretty large, plus youre probably passing on the system to AN other promoted team leading me to think the system must be rented. With clubs like Livvy and Ross County probably pretty near the breadline, it might not take much in costs changing to rethink the whole thing.

That aside, I also found this which is really interesting.

https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/video-assistant-referee-var-protocol/#principles

[matty_f]

Surely it's the same as any other foul in the build up, so if a goal is scored then it can be checked?

No, it’s ridiculous. Motherwell reference it in their statement.

[matty_f]

Nah - it would be checked as part of a goal being scored.

I hate the handball rule but the way it's designed has some logic... bear with me. Remember when handballs were only punished if deliberate. You had John Terry diving along the ground and regularly the ball would hit his arms. But he could claim it wasn't deliberate. So they've come up with this "unnatural position" of the hand thing to try to counter that. And it's just gone massively too far the other way.

The Motherwell one should simply be a goal. It's absolutely right that if someone accidentally handballs it and then a team mate scores, the goal should stand. This is like St Mirren's penalty at Easter Road - an example where the refs seem to not know/understand the rules.

For the Hibs vs St Mirren example the ref/VAR should be considering that the ball struck Triantis's body/leg first. Therefore no penalty. For the Motherwell example, they seem to be applying the handball rule as if Motherwell are the defending team. It's just rank incompetence by multiple referees on a regular basis.

It’s not - remember Rangers (I know) had a goal given at Pittodrie, there was a clear handball in the build up but because it wasn’t the direct scorer, it wasn’t considered and the goal stood.

I’m not saying i agree with it, but that’s how it’s applied.

[nonshinyfinish]

No, it’s ridiculous. Motherwell reference it in their statement.

I haven't seen the Motherwell incident, but from what a poster above says it sounds like that may be an example of the rules being applied incorrectly.

Are you saying that deliberate handball ("punch the ball to a teammate" as you put it) cannot be considered a foul in the build up?

[LaMotta]

Reading the SFA website Q&A on VAR, I would interpret that as saying that a handball in the lead up to a goal would be checked and therefore a goal could/should be disallowed for an obvious handball foul:

[How far back can VAR go to check a decision?

As a guide, VAR will normally only go back as far as the start of the last ‘attacking phase of play” (APP). So, if a team is on the attack and the VAR says that the APP has started, if a goal is scored and there’s an obvious foul by the attacking side in the APP, the VAR will look at that as part of automatically checking the goal. Conversely, if the attacking phase comes to an end (e.g. the attacking team loses possession or the ball goes out of play), the VAR would no longer need to check that foul. The only incidents when VAR can go back to a previous phase of play is for incidents of violent conduct, spitting or mistaken identity.

[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#2E2A2A]Video Assistant Referee (VAR) Q&A | Scottish FA | News (https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/video-assistant-referee-var-qa/)

[Hibiza]

I thought that VAR only got involved w ith unclear decisions , time the Refs had the conviction to stand by their original decision or ask for clarity . 🤔🤔🤔

[Victor]

Reading the SFA website Q&A on VAR, I would interpret that as saying that a handball in the lead up to a goal would be checked and therefore a goal could/should be disallowed for an obvious handball foul:

[How far back can VAR go to check a decision?

As a guide, VAR will normally only go back as far as the start of the last ‘attacking phase of play” (APP). So, if a team is on the attack and the VAR says that the APP has started, if a goal is scored and there’s an obvious foul by the attacking side in the APP, the VAR will look at that as part of automatically checking the goal. Conversely, if the attacking phase comes to an end (e.g. the attacking team loses possession or the ball goes out of play), the VAR would no longer need to check that foul. The only incidents when VAR can go back to a previous phase of play is for incidents of violent conduct, spitting or mistaken identity.

[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#2E2A2A]Video Assistant Referee (VAR) Q&A | Scottish FA | News (https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/video-assistant-referee-var-qa/)



All makes sense, but as we know the effective use of VAR requires competent officials and, sadly, that is something we lack. Bit surprised to see that it states we do not have goal line technology, would have thought that would be installed before VAR. Wonder if their review looks at whether the ball crossed the line! [emoji3]

[number9dream]

It’s not - remember Rangers (I know) had a goal given at Pittodrie, there was a clear handball in the build up but because it wasn’t the direct scorer, it wasn’t considered and the goal stood.

I’m not saying i agree with it, but that’s how it’s applied.

This is why Motherwell are upset... The ball hit Bair's arm but it's not deliberate and the contact is so slight it doesn't appear to alter the trajectory of the ball.
They reference a Ross County goal against them when play goes on after a non-deliberate handball and the goal stands - like this Rangers incident above.
The wildest example I can think of was Duncan Watmore (remember him?) crossing for a Middlesbrough equaliser at Old Trafford. The ball pinged off his foot and on to his hand, stopping it from going out of play, then he tees up a goal - which stood because it wasn't deliberate (even though there was a huge advantage from the action of his hand getting in the way). If Watmore scores from that action, it's no goal.

However, any handball deemed deliberate will be pulled up as a foul every single time if it leads to a goal.

[gbhibby]

It’s not - remember Rangers (I know) had a goal given at Pittodrie, there was a clear handball in the build up but because it wasn’t the direct scorer, it wasn’t considered and the goal stood.

I’m not saying i agree with it, but that’s how it’s applied.
It seems to be applied differently in other countries from what I've watched on TV. There needs to be uniformity not only in the application of VAR but also the application of the rules especially the handball rule

[Tyler Durden]

It’s not - remember Rangers (I know) had a goal given at Pittodrie, there was a clear handball in the build up but because it wasn’t the direct scorer, it wasn’t considered and the goal stood.

I’m not saying i agree with it, but that’s how it’s applied.

That is because it was not a deliberate handball. It's not that VAR wouldn't check...... it's that it's not an offence unless it's deliberate. Unlike a defending team where you can be penalised for handball even if it's not deliberate.

EDIT - a recent example. Quansah scored for Liverpool away to Toulouse. However VAR ruled it out as they felt that McAllister had handballed in the build up. It was a very harsh decision and UEFA interpretation is a little different, but it is an example of VAR reviewing attacking handballs for a goal scored.

[Numptie]

In Rugby they can look back 2 phases from the try but not 3, 4 etc. Someone was complaining of a foul 3 phases before a try in the Six Nations. The VAR team saw it after reviewing the try but couldn't give the fould as it was in the 3rd phase !!! So what ever you put in place, has its issues.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Seems to me that they’ve made the rules so complicated no one understands them and then confusion reigns.

It’s a simple game (for simple people?) - just keep it simple.

[PatHead]

The start of the phase of play rule means that Ross County's second goal should not have stood. The foul throw from the wrong place means it was involved in the phase of play.

[HH81]

Why not say var can review 60 secs prior to the goal scored. Nothing else.

[worcesterhibby]

I'd argue that if a defender puts his hands behind his back and somehow the ball hits his hand, then it should be a foul. I can't think of a more "unnatural" position for a defenders hands to be !

The rule should be that a handball is deemed to be a foul if the ball hits the hand or arm below the elbow:

a) Is obviously intentional (hand to ball, arms waved to block, arm hand left to block a shot when there is time to move it away)
punishment: 1)Direct free kick if outside of box and a booking 2) a penalty if in the box and a booking if blocking a cross or red if obviously saving a goal bound shot.

b) Is not intentional (ball to hand without reasonable time to move hand/arm out of the way)
punishment: 1) indirect free kick if outside the box - no card 2) Indirect free kick if inside the box - no card

For me that solves the whole thing - handball is only a penalty if it is obviously intentional. Having a ball blasted against your arm, even if it's away from your body should be an indirect free kick always, even if it's unintentional. That way there is very little argument. If it hits your arm/hand then it's a foul..90% of the time it will be indirect. Only if there is obvious intent should it be a penalty.

[B.H.F.C]

Why not say var can review 60 secs prior to the goal scored. Nothing else.

Because then you’d have folk wanting it reviewed for 90 seconds or whatever.

Easiest solution, get VAR tae ****.

[Kato]

The start of the phase of play rule means that Ross County's second goal should not have stood. The foul throw from the wrong place means it was involved in the phase of play.I'm sure VAR looked at it and came to the conclusion there was nothing wrong with the goal, in their heads.

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[PatHead]

I'm sure VAR looked at it and came to the conclusion there was nothing wrong with the goal, in their heads.

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Because it didn't involve Sevco they probably never bothered. In fact bet the var man had already packed up and gone.

[LaMotta]

The start of the phase of play rule means that Ross County's second goal should not have stood. The foul throw from the wrong place means it was involved in the phase of play.

You would think that would be the case but according to the SFA VAR wont intervene in incorrect decisions for something like a throw in, regardless if a goal follows it. Same for corners incorrectly awarded. Same for two incorrect yellow cards - cant be looked at by VAR, player gets sent off unfairly.


Which begs the question what is the point of VAR if it only corrects some wrongs but can fail to correct other game changing decisions?