Monty must stay

[matty_f]

He did imo. He also had Boyle and Miller earlier in the season and still refused to do it. It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest he was just waiting for the return of Boyle and Miller to change from his previous system, one which he openly said he’d be sticking to and one which he stuck to even when Boyle and Miller were available previously.

I didn't say he was waiting on the return of Boyle and Miller to change the system. I think he felt he needed other players in as well.

[Brightside]

Not that it really matters but its 4231 we are playing. The main difference is the people in those positions. We've played 4231 about 8 times this year now. Even when it was 442 in the actual games it turns more into a 4231 in possession. The phases of play and actions have hardly changed. What's changed is players upping effort and in some cases being replaced with better options.

We could pay 352 with these players, 4222, 3421, 343, any of them would be improved by the players coming back from Int Duty and the additions in Jan.

[Donegal Hibby]

In my mind potentially not. Fail to win next week and we’re 8 league games without a win. You can of course choose to look at it up to the derby and say he needs 6/7 points from 9.

We need to start winning games of league football. Drawing games and writing them off as “tough places to go” won’t fly anymore if we want to achieve something this season.

If somebody offered me 5 right now I'd take it . The reality is though both pittodrie and tiny are tough places to go . Aberdeen game is getting described as a must win were I see it as one we mustn't lose and I'd be quite happy with a draw in it .

[Since452]

Very harsh. He was given a mess of a squad with a weak spine, from which we lost three key players for a few weeks leaving us with a sixteen year old at right back and next to no options off the bench.


You can point to a fifth placed finish last season but Hearts, Aberdeen, Rangers, Motherwell, and Dundee United all had bad enough runs to sack their manager, fifth wasn’t exactly any great shakes at all. We also lost Nisbet, big Myko, Egan Riley from that team too.


IMO the squad we’ve had recently was easily relegation quality, but with better midfielders and extra depth my expectations are going up the way from what we get here.


The damage was done in the summer by not strengthening the spine of the team sufficiently then sacking LJ after it was too late to change the squad.

Was it though? The football genius that was Lee Johnson almost finished 3rd and pumped Luzern out of Europe with basically the same squad.

The squad is way better than the 7th place we're sitting in.

[Carheenlea]

I’d like to see this one through.

Our league placing is disappointing to say the least, and most of that has been under Montgomery’s watch, but with one window, and one that is traditionally a difficult one to really make impactful squad restructuring, the changes made look to be very positive ones.

With a more natural looking formation and line up we are getting more out our better players. Boyle again looks like one of the most dangerous players in league playing wide right rather than central where he didn’t have the same influence. Levitt looks looks more comfortable in the three and has lots to offer the team. Myziane and Moriah-Welsh look automatic starters already. Triantis starting to settle and will prove to be a fans favourite I think.

The signings look like sensible additions rather than scattergun, and who might be targeted in summer might be quite exciting with Foley’s promise of a “few million” to spend. I really believe Nick Montgomery is going to do a lot of good with us.

[BoomtownHibees]

Not that it really matters but its 4231 we are playing. The main difference is the people in those positions. We've played 4231 about 8 times this year now. Even when it was 442 in the actual games it turns more into a 4231 in possession. The phases of play and actions have hardly changed. What's changed is players upping effort and in some cases being replaced with better options.

We could pay 352 with these players, 4222, 3421, 343, any of them would be improved by the players coming back from Int Duty and the additions in Jan.

Can argue if it’s 4231, 433, 451 whatever but I’m not sure how you can say phases of play and actions haven’t changed. Our midfield are playing about 30 yards further forward, other than Joe Newell. Our wide players, especially Boyle, stay wider rather than coming inside all the time. Those tweaks have made a massive difference, especially when in possession

[matty_f]

I’d like to see this one through.

Our league placing is disappointing to say the least, and most of that has been under Montgomery’s watch, but with one window, and one that is traditionally a difficult one to really make impactful squad restructuring, the changes made look to be very positive ones.

With a more natural looking formation and line up we are getting more out our better players. Boyle again looks like one of the most dangerous players in league playing wide right rather than central where he didn’t have the same influence. Levitt looks looks more comfortable in the three and has lots to offer the team. Myziane and Moriah-Welsh look automatic starters already. Triantis starting to settle and will prove to be a fans favourite I think.

The signings look like sensible additions rather than scattergun, and who might be targeted in summer might be quite exciting with Foley’s promise of a “few million” to spend. I really believe Nick Montgomery is going to do a lot of good with us.

I think it's still early days to really know what level the signings are at, but I agree with your post based on the little Ive seen so far.

I think we've added quality at the top end of the pitch, but the biggest difference we'll see is in the middle of the park. You could see the difference it made having the energy of Amos and Moriah-Welsh supporting Newell on Saturday, and even against Celtic we competed well with one of the best, if not the best, midfields in the league.

[Brightside]

Can argue if it’s 4231, 433, 451 whatever but I’m not sure how you can say phases of play and actions haven’t changed. Our midfield are playing about 30 yards further forward, other than Joe Newell. Our wide players, especially Boyle, stay wider rather than coming inside all the time. Those tweaks have made a massive difference, especially when in possession

We are definitely playing further forward but id argue that the addition of Miller, Welsh, Boyle has a huge influence on that. Others are now more confident to play that bit higher knowing that the have more cover around the pitch.

[Donegal Hibby]

Was it though? The football genius that was Lee Johnson almost finished 3rd and pumped Luzern out of Europe with basically the same squad.

The squad is way better than the 7th place we're sitting in.

I agree the squad is better than 7th alright . Unfortunately there's been no improvement since LJ , if anything we've went backwards up to now .

[matty_f]

We are definitely playing further forward but id argue that the addition of Miller, Welsh, Boyle has a huge influence on that. Others are now more confident to play that bit higher knowing that the have more cover around the pitch.

I think that's spot on. I think players instinctively if not deliberately change how they play when they aren't as confident in others in the team.

For example, against Forfar, Fish tried to play out with the ball, lost it and left Whittaker chasing the attacker who had a one on one with Marshall. Fish would have looked for another option in that position the next time because he couldn't afford to make the mistake.

[basehibby]

I'm usually of the mind that any manager deserves a good "kick at the baw" to show if they've got the goods to manage Hibs or not. Football Management is a complex role afterall, in which there are a variety of different approaches, skillsets and philosophies - some of which take longer to bear fruit than others. I was exasperated after the St Mirren game though - such that I was coming round to the point of view that Monty did not know what the hell he was doing and needed emptied sooner rather than later.
A week is a long time in football though, and I was much heartened by the performance vs Celtic (if not the result) and further encouraged to see a similarly effective performance rewarded with a win in the tough cup tie against Inverness.
Really hope Monty can build on this and make it the start of a beautiful relationship with the Hibs support.

[matty_f]

I agree the squad is better than 7th alright . Unfortunately there's been no improvement since LJ , if anything we've went backwards up to now .

The squad was better than 7th before we lost the players to international duty and ALF in particular to injury, but also Hanlon being unavailable for some January games or playing through illness when he was, had a huge impact.

The league table reflected that.

[matty_f]

I'm usually of the mind that any manager deserves a good "kick at the baw" to show if they've got the goods to manage Hibs or not. Football Management is a complex role afterall, in which there are a variety of different approaches, skillsets and philosophies - some of which take longer to bear fruit than others. I was exasperated after the St Mirren game though - such that I was coming round to the point of view that Monty did not know what the hell he was doing and needed emptied sooner rather than later.
A week is a long time in football though, and I was much heartened by the performance vs Celtic (if not the result) and further encouraged to see a similarly effective performance rewarded with a win in the tough cup tie against Inverness.
Really hope Monty can build on this and make it the start of a beautiful relationship with the Hibs support.

:agree:

Last Saturday was genuinely one of my lowest points watching Hibs. It was a terrible performance and as supportive as I am of Monty (and our managers in general) if he'd got the Spanish archer on Saturday night after that game, I wouldn't have had any complaints.

That's really the one performance where irrespective of the players available or unavailable, there's a minimum acceptable standard which we should reasonably accept, and that was miles off it.

[Hibeesdaft16]

The squad was better than 7th before we lost the players to international duty and ALF in particular to injury, but also Hanlon being unavailable for some January games or playing through illness when he was, had a huge impact.

The league table reflected that.

We only lost 2 league games with the players gone for International duty, we are 7th based on the whole of the season so far, of which almost all of it Monty has been in charge. One game in January was lost, huns at home. Two of our worst performances of the season against St Johnstone and Hertz in December when the rot kicked in was with more or less a full strength team to pick from.

[matty_f]

We only lost 2 league games with the players gone for International duty, we are 7th based on the whole of the season so far, of which almost all of it Monty has been in charge. One game in January was lost, huns at home. Two of our worst performances of the season against St Johnstone and Hertz in December when the rot kicked in was with more or less a full strength team to pick from.

We weren't bad in the Hearts performance, we were the better team, IMHO (and the opinion of many others on here). St Johnstone was abysmal. Bear in mind Monty came in 3 games in and on zero points, he had us within a point of Hearts before the arse fell out the performances.

It's not just the players that went away, there's the injuries and illness to players. He's brought in seven new players in January, that should be really clear indication of where the issue lay.

If it doesn't improve after that then it's clearly the manager.

[Centre Hawf]

If somebody offered me 5 right now I'd take it . The reality is though both pittodrie and tiny are tough places to go . Aberdeen game is getting described as a must win were I see it as one we mustn't lose and I'd be quite happy with a draw in it .

I don’t disagree with your logic. They are tough fixtures for us usually as you say and normally we can afford to suck it up and take a point from fixtures like them when we’re winning elsewhere. But if we don’t win next week then the pressure is only going to grow and grow. Only wins will alleviate that and the idea that going on a 9/10 game winless streak in this league shouldn’t come with that pressure and sense of dubiousness on him is nonsense.

He is in desperate need of a win or two before Hearts because a loss in that game without at least one will absolutely end him from the overall fans perspective, and anyone who says otherwise has either never been on this site after a Derby defeat or is lying to themselves to make themselves feel better about things.

[Stevie Reid]

Very harsh. He was given a mess of a squad with a weak spine, from which we lost three key players for a few weeks leaving us with a sixteen year old at right back and next to no options off the bench.


You can point to a fifth placed finish last season but Hearts, Aberdeen, Rangers, Motherwell, and Dundee United all had bad enough runs to sack their manager, fifth wasn’t exactly any great shakes at all. We also lost Nisbet, big Myko, Egan Riley from that team too.


IMO the squad we’ve had recently was easily relegation quality, but with better midfielders and extra depth my expectations are going up the way from what we get here.


The damage was done in the summer by not strengthening the spine of the team sufficiently then sacking LJ after it was too late to change the squad.

I might be wrong here, so I'll apologise in advance if so, but were you not making some pretty bold claims about how well NM would do with us, and where he would inevitably end up managing, when he was appointed? To me it just looks like you're now doing gymnastics to try and back up your faith in him - including exaggerating our problems, with that pretty wild claim that our squad is/was relegation quality. Are you seriously saying that you think our squad pre-January was worse than Livingston, Ross County, Motherwell and St. Johnstone? You'd be better off just saying I really like the manager (which is fair enough if that's how you feel), than making wild claims about how bad he's had it.

You talk about all of those other teams sacking their managers - we could easily have done the same. There's not a single poster on this board who would have complained had Johnson lost his job after that horrendous round of fixtures that he had (nine out of eleven games lost in the league, six points from a possible 33), culminating in the two 3-0 losses to Hearts in the same month. You also point out that we've lost Nisbet, Myko, and Egan-Riley this season, conveniently overlooking the fact that Johnson didn't have the services of Nisbet until November, that Myko was hardly fit, and Egan-Riley got injured before our crucial 4th place shoot out with Hearts on the final day (during that game we also lost Miller, Cadden, and JDH to injury, when we were systematically breaking Hearts down after the sending off. LJ had nothing on the bench to turn to either).

No manager gets the benefit of a full squad all the time. I'm sure LJ would love to know how our season would have gone had the likes of Boyle, Nisbet, Myko and McGeady not injured for months. You can also add to that Magennis (typically), Rocky and McKirdy, who all missed a lot of football. The key is to set up your team to give you the best chance of success - NM stubbornly refused to to that until last week. He hasn't helped himself at all, and if he takes just as long to learn future lessons then he just won't last long here at all, and rightly so.

I'm still happy to see how NM does in the coming weeks - by my calculations he currently has the same amount of points from his first 20 league games as LJ did. Johnson managed to win 29 points from his last 18 games to get us fifth. Obviously NM came in after four games, so doesn't have another 18, but I'd be looking for him to at least match that PPG (1.61) for him to have any shout at keeping his job. That would get us 48 points, we were 5th last year with 52, and St. Mirren 6th with 46.

As for the idea that we stick with him if we finish bottom six, that's a complete non-starter for me - as is using the idea that we can't simply start over again. Why not? We have a lot of players out of contract in the summer, and our main January business was in the loan market. Seems a perfect time to start again to me - if NM leaves us bottom six given the squad he inherited and then bringing seven players in in January, I'd want him nowhere near a major rebuild.

Let me put it another way. If another SPL team had brought in a manager who was in their first season of management in the SPL, started off playing a way that didn't suit the league or his squad, and couldn't make the most of similar resources to the ones we have available - and finished bottom six - would you be touting him for us as manager? McInnes and Robinson (relatively) have track records of success in this league and loads of posters on here practically spit when their names are mentioned.

Let's see how the next three league fixtures go. The last week has been more encouraging, and getting a couple of key players back is a bonus. However, NM still has it all to prove, and by the end of the season he'll have had a fair crack of the whip to try and demonstrate that he's worth sticking with. If we finish bottom six, and he's removed from his post, he'll have no one to blame but himself.

[Since452]

I might be wrong here, so I'll apologise in advance if so, but were you not making some pretty bold claims about how well NM would do with us, and where he would inevitably end up managing, when he was appointed? To me it just looks like you're now doing gymnastics to try and back up your faith in him - including exaggerating our problems, with that pretty wild claim that our squad is/was relegation quality. Are you seriously saying that you think our squad pre-January was worse than Livingston, Ross County, Motherwell and St. Johnstone? You'd be better off just saying I really like the manager (which is fair enough if that's how you feel), than making wild claims about how bad he's had it.

You talk about all of those other teams sacking their managers - we could easily have done the same. There's not a single poster on this board who would have complained had Johnson lost his job after that horrendous round of fixtures that he had (nine out of eleven games lost in the league, six points from a possible 33), culminating in the two 3-0 losses to Hearts in the same month. You also point out that we've lost Nisbet, Myko, and Egan-Riley this season, conveniently overlooking the fact that Johnson didn't have the services of Nisbet until November, that Myko was hardly fit, and Egan-Riley got injured before our crucial 4th place shoot out with Hearts on the final day (during that game we also lost Miller, Cadden, and JDH to injury, when we were systematically breaking Hearts down after the sending off. LJ had nothing on the bench to turn to either).

No manager gets the benefit of a full squad all the time. I'm sure LJ would love to know how our season would have gone had the likes of Boyle, Nisbet, Myko and McGeady not injured for months. You can also add to that Magennis (typically), Rocky and McKirdy, who all missed a lot of football. The key is to set up your team to give you the best chance of success - NM stubbornly refused to to that until last week. He hasn't helped himself at all, and if he takes just as long to learn future lessons then he just won't last long here at all, and rightly so.

I'm still happy to see how NM does in the coming weeks - by my calculations he currently has the same amount of points from his first 20 league games as LJ did. Johnson managed to win 29 points from his last 18 games to get us fifth. Obviously NM came in after four games, so doesn't have another 18, but I'd be looking for him to at least match that PPG (1.61) for him to have any shout at keeping his job. That would get us 48 points, we were 5th last year with 52, and St. Mirren 6th with 46.

As for the idea that we stick with him if we finish bottom six, that's a complete non-starter for me - as is using the idea that we can't simply start over again. Why not? We have a lot of players out of contract in the summer, and our main January business was in the loan market. Seems a perfect time to start again to me - if NM leaves us bottom six given the squad he inherited and then bringing seven players in in January, I'd want him nowhere near a major rebuild.

Let me put it another way. If another SPL team had brought in a manager who was in their first season of management in the SPL, started off playing a way that didn't suit the league or his squad, and couldn't make the most of similar resources to the ones we have available - and finished bottom six - would you be touting him for us as manager? McInnes and Robinson (relatively) have track records of success in this league and loads of posters on here practically spit when their names are mentioned.

Let's see how the next three league fixtures go. The last week has been more encouraging, and getting a couple of key players back is a bonus. However, NM still has it all to prove, and by the end of the season he'll have had a fair crack of the whip to try and demonstrate that he's worth sticking with. If we finish bottom six, and he's removed from his post, he'll have no one to blame but himself.

Great post. Agree entirely. Bottom six should be a sackable offence. I said at the start of the season before a ball was kicked and LJ was manager I'd be disappointed if we didn't finish 3rd given the massive investment in the playing squad by non old firm standards. The season has been an utter car crash and Montgomery has to take the majority of the blame for it. He's managed all but 4 of the games and hasn't had Europe as an excuse. Really hope he pushes on and we don't finish bottom 6. The notion that we should stick with any manager that finishes bottom six is nonsense imo and sends out the wrong message. I'd say that regardless of who was in charge.

[Northernhibee]

I might be wrong here, so I'll apologise in advance if so, but were you not making some pretty bold claims about how well NM would do with us, and where he would inevitably end up managing, when he was appointed? To me it just looks like you're now doing gymnastics to try and back up your faith in him - including exaggerating our problems, with that pretty wild claim that our squad is/was relegation quality. Are you seriously saying that you think our squad pre-January was worse than Livingston, Ross County, Motherwell and St. Johnstone? You'd be better off just saying I really like the manager (which is fair enough if that's how you feel), than making wild claims about how bad he's had it.

You talk about all of those other teams sacking their managers - we could easily have done the same. There's not a single poster on this board who would have complained had Johnson lost his job after that horrendous round of fixtures that he had (nine out of eleven games lost in the league, six points from a possible 33), culminating in the two 3-0 losses to Hearts in the same month. You also point out that we've lost Nisbet, Myko, and Egan-Riley this season, conveniently overlooking the fact that Johnson didn't have the services of Nisbet until November, that Myko was hardly fit, and Egan-Riley got injured before our crucial 4th place shoot out with Hearts on the final day (during that game we also lost Miller, Cadden, and JDH to injury, when we were systematically breaking Hearts down after the sending off. LJ had nothing on the bench to turn to either).

No manager gets the benefit of a full squad all the time. I'm sure LJ would love to know how our season would have gone had the likes of Boyle, Nisbet, Myko and McGeady not injured for months. You can also add to that Magennis (typically), Rocky and McKirdy, who all missed a lot of football. The key is to set up your team to give you the best chance of success - NM stubbornly refused to to that until last week. He hasn't helped himself at all, and if he takes just as long to learn future lessons then he just won't last long here at all, and rightly so.

I'm still happy to see how NM does in the coming weeks - by my calculations he currently has the same amount of points from his first 20 league games as LJ did. Johnson managed to win 29 points from his last 18 games to get us fifth. Obviously NM came in after four games, so doesn't have another 18, but I'd be looking for him to at least match that PPG (1.61) for him to have any shout at keeping his job. That would get us 48 points, we were 5th last year with 52, and St. Mirren 6th with 46.

As for the idea that we stick with him if we finish bottom six, that's a complete non-starter for me - as is using the idea that we can't simply start over again. Why not? We have a lot of players out of contract in the summer, and our main January business was in the loan market. Seems a perfect time to start again to me - if NM leaves us bottom six given the squad he inherited and then bringing seven players in in January, I'd want him nowhere near a major rebuild.

Let me put it another way. If another SPL team had brought in a manager who was in their first season of management in the SPL, started off playing a way that didn't suit the league or his squad, and couldn't make the most of similar resources to the ones we have available - and finished bottom six - would you be touting him for us as manager? McInnes and Robinson (relatively) have track records of success in this league and loads of posters on here practically spit when their names are mentioned.

Let's see how the next three league fixtures go. The last week has been more encouraging, and getting a couple of key players back is a bonus. However, NM still has it all to prove, and by the end of the season he'll have had a fair crack of the whip to try and demonstrate that he's worth sticking with. If we finish bottom six, and he's removed from his post, he'll have no one to blame but himself.

I’ll be honest with you - I still highly rate Monty. He’s had some ill fortune and had a few hard lessons to learn without a doubt but it’s not gymnastics to save face, you’ll struggle to find another poster on here who will readily admit when they get it wrong as much as myself

It’s occasionally on faith and his achievements at CCM, but I still do believe we have a top manager who is finding his feet and if given time and backing will be successful with us, quite genuinely.


Post St Mirren was grim, admittedly.

[Hibeesdaft16]

We weren't bad in the Hearts performance, we were the better team, IMHO (and the opinion of many others on here). St Johnstone was abysmal. Bear in mind Monty came in 3 games in and on zero points, he had us within a point of Hearts before the arse fell out the performances.

It's not just the players that went away, there's the injuries and illness to players. He's brought in seven new players in January, that should be really clear indication of where the issue lay.

If it doesn't improve after that then it's clearly the manager.

Fair enough mate. I thought we were very poor in the derby, so were they. Also, yes we were a point behind them but a lot of their fans wanted Naibadges sacked at that point because of their start to the season, that's how poor they were.

I get that we had a lot of problems in January, but it's negligent imo to blame the position of where we are now, after more than half the season played because of one month.

Let's hope with the new players our fortunes do improve in the league, it's really, really needed and asap.

In the summer everyone was saying how good a summer window we had, to let the players settle etc etc and to not worry or "bedwet" about it. People that had concerns then got the usual abuse, getting called a hertz fan etc. Now it's went completely 360 and it's all because of the squad before January and it was some kind of squad that could get us relegated? We sacked LJ because it was almost universally agreed we had a better squad than the shambles he was serving up and we needed to replace him to get a lot better out the players. Now that Monty failed to do so the players are ***** anyway and we needed a whole new team basically.

[Stevie Reid]

I’ll be honest with you - I still highly rate Monty. He’s had some ill fortune and had a few hard lessons to learn without a doubt but it’s not gymnastics to save face, you’ll struggle to find another poster on here who will readily admit when they get it wrong.

It’s occasionally on faith and his achievements at CCM, but I still do believe we have a top manager who is finding his feet and if given time and backing will be successful with us, quite genuinely.


Post St Mirren was grim, admittedly.

Fair enough man - I really hope you are right, obviously. In terms of backing from the stands, he'll have mine for as long as he's here - but my faith is nowhere near as strong as yours.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I might be wrong here, so I'll apologise in advance if so, but were you not making some pretty bold claims about how well NM would do with us, and where he would inevitably end up managing, when he was appointed? To me it just looks like you're now doing gymnastics to try and back up your faith in him - including exaggerating our problems, with that pretty wild claim that our squad is/was relegation quality. Are you seriously saying that you think our squad pre-January was worse than Livingston, Ross County, Motherwell and St. Johnstone? You'd be better off just saying I really like the manager (which is fair enough if that's how you feel), than making wild claims about how bad he's had it.

You talk about all of those other teams sacking their managers - we could easily have done the same. There's not a single poster on this board who would have complained had Johnson lost his job after that horrendous round of fixtures that he had (nine out of eleven games lost in the league, six points from a possible 33), culminating in the two 3-0 losses to Hearts in the same month. You also point out that we've lost Nisbet, Myko, and Egan-Riley this season, conveniently overlooking the fact that Johnson didn't have the services of Nisbet until November, that Myko was hardly fit, and Egan-Riley got injured before our crucial 4th place shoot out with Hearts on the final day (during that game we also lost Miller, Cadden, and JDH to injury, when we were systematically breaking Hearts down after the sending off. LJ had nothing on the bench to turn to either).

No manager gets the benefit of a full squad all the time. I'm sure LJ would love to know how our season would have gone had the likes of Boyle, Nisbet, Myko and McGeady not injured for months. You can also add to that Magennis (typically), Rocky and McKirdy, who all missed a lot of football. The key is to set up your team to give you the best chance of success - NM stubbornly refused to to that until last week. He hasn't helped himself at all, and if he takes just as long to learn future lessons then he just won't last long here at all, and rightly so.

I'm still happy to see how NM does in the coming weeks - by my calculations he currently has the same amount of points from his first 20 league games as LJ did. Johnson managed to win 29 points from his last 18 games to get us fifth. Obviously NM came in after four games, so doesn't have another 18, but I'd be looking for him to at least match that PPG (1.61) for him to have any shout at keeping his job. That would get us 48 points, we were 5th last year with 52, and St. Mirren 6th with 46.

As for the idea that we stick with him if we finish bottom six, that's a complete non-starter for me - as is using the idea that we can't simply start over again. Why not? We have a lot of players out of contract in the summer, and our main January business was in the loan market. Seems a perfect time to start again to me - if NM leaves us bottom six given the squad he inherited and then bringing seven players in in January, I'd want him nowhere near a major rebuild.

Let me put it another way. If another SPL team had brought in a manager who was in their first season of management in the SPL, started off playing a way that didn't suit the league or his squad, and couldn't make the most of similar resources to the ones we have available - and finished bottom six - would you be touting him for us as manager? McInnes and Robinson (relatively) have track records of success in this league and loads of posters on here practically spit when their names are mentioned.

Let's see how the next three league fixtures go. The last week has been more encouraging, and getting a couple of key players back is a bonus. However, NM still has it all to prove, and by the end of the season he'll have had a fair crack of the whip to try and demonstrate that he's worth sticking with. If we finish bottom six, and he's removed from his post, he'll have no one to blame but himself.

Spot on.

[Iain G]

Great post. Agree entirely. Bottom six should be a sackable offence. I said at the start of the season before a ball was kicked and LJ was manager I'd be disappointed if we didn't finish 3rd given the massive investment in the playing squad by non old firm standards. The season has been an utter car crash and Montgomery has to take the majority of the blame for it. He's managed all but 4 of the games and hasn't had Europe as an excuse. Really hope he pushes on and we don't finish bottom 6. The notion that we should stick with any manager that finishes bottom six is nonsense imo and sends out the wrong message. I'd say that regardless of who was in charge.

As always I completely disagree with you views on Hibs. If we do happen to finish 7th yet show enough guile and good football and indication that we are heading in the right direction for next season, then I don't care if we finish bottom 6. I want Hibs to pay down great foundation to be successful to years ahead, not just a blip in one season. If NM and his team show a lot of improvement yet stumble over the line in 7th, so what! Let's set up something to build on.

We let Stubbs build a project when he failed on the league in two seasons and we won the holy grail, maybe it's time we gave another manager some slack.

And anyway, it's LJ's fault if we finish bottom half by the 9 points. 😁

[Paulie Walnuts]

As always I completely disagree with you views on Hibs. If we do happen to finish 7th yet show enough guile and good football and indication that we are heading in the right direction for next season, then I don't care if we finish bottom 6. I want Hibs to pay down great foundation to be successful to years ahead, not just a blip in one season. If NM and his team show a lot of improvement yet stumble over the line in 7th, so what! Let's set up something to build on.

And anyway, it's LJ's fault if we finish bottom half by the 9 points. 😁

I’m not quite sure how you think showing a lot of improvement and finishing in the bottom 6 can co-exist. If we finish bottom 6 from where we were when the January window closed then there simply will not have been improvement. Finishing bottom 6 is essentially confirmation that he’s taken us spectacularly backwards.

[Iain G]

I’m not quite sure how you think showing a lot of improvement and finishing in the bottom 6 can co-exist. If we finish bottom 6 from where we were when the January window closed then there simply will not have been improvement.

It makes perfect sense to me, maybe take a step back and look a little longer term. If we are putting down good foundation and playing better football in the next 9/14 games, and it shows we can sign the right quality of player and implement what NM wants us to be, then a small failure to finish top 6 should not matter.

And he inherited a team with 0 points in 3 league games and bottom of the league, anything is an improvement on that pish LJ served up.

[Paulie Walnuts]

It makes perfect sense to me, maybe take a step back and look a little longer term. If we are putting down good foundation and playing better football in the next 9/14 games, and it shows we can sign the right quality of player and implement what NM wants us to be, then a small failure to finish top 6 should not matter.

And he inherited a team with 0 points in 3 league games and bottom of the league, anything is an improvement on that pish LJ served up.

Finishing bottom 6 isn’t good foundations. That’s horrendous foundations and would leave us taking a stupid gamble next season on a manager who has failed spectacularly and leave us in the same position we were in this season, sacking a manager early doors and writing off next season because they didn’t get a summer window etc.

He didnt inherit a team on 0 points. We had 3 points from 4 games.

[The Modfather]

Great post. Agree entirely. Bottom six should be a sackable offence. I said at the start of the season before a ball was kicked and LJ was manager I'd be disappointed if we didn't finish 3rd given the massive investment in the playing squad by non old firm standards. The season has been an utter car crash and Montgomery has to take the majority of the blame for it. He's managed all but 4 of the games and hasn't had Europe as an excuse. Really hope he pushes on and we don't finish bottom 6. The notion that we should stick with any manager that finishes bottom six is nonsense imo and sends out the wrong message. I'd say that regardless of who was in charge.

We spent a lot of money in the summer (£2m in fees alone ball park) but spent it poorly IMO.

We needed to upgrade goalkeeper and centre back. We brought in Harbottle and Wollacot, loaning the former out in the next window. With no matter how badly players in their positions were playing they weren’t viable alternatives.

We spent a big fee on Levitt despite the midfield crying out for 5 years needing someone with the energy and athleticism of Moriah-Welsh. Even more bafflingly Johnson didn’t once play him near the strikers but played him deep. No idea why he was signed in that case.

We signed Vente, who I really like. However he’s a downgrade on Nisbet in terms of suitability to play as a lone striker. He doesn’t create his own chances or have the all round game to hold the ball up for others.

I always thought we were more likely to be looking over our shoulder at the bottom 6 than thinking about 3rd when we went into the season with the spine of our team of, Marshall. Hanlon/Fish/Rocky. Newell/Levitt/Jeggo and Vente/Doidge.

Up until December I’d have given Montgomery just about pass marks. December and January was abysmal, but the squad was shown up with no alternatives to Marshall, Whittaker, Hanlon, Levitt & Tavares. It’s no coincidence 5 or 6 of the first picks throughout December & January have now been replaced by new signings/players returning.

This season is about moving on as much of the permanent squad as possible IMO, for the benefit next season and trying to get over the line into the top 6 and see where we finish from there. The January signings were encouraging given Monty sees what we all see. Two new centre backs (an area needing rebuilt), two midfielders we can build a team around and critically who have energy, athleticism and dig. As well as a forward suited to playing on his own.

Montgomery hasn’t left himself much room for error, but get top 6. Move on all of the out of contract players and continue to make signings in the summer that address issues we’ve had for years and I’m looking forward to next season.

[Unseen work]

It makes perfect sense to me, maybe take a step back and look a little longer term. If we are putting down good foundation and playing better football in the next 9/14 games, and it shows we can sign the right quality of player and implement what NM wants us to be, then a small failure to finish top 6 should not matter.

And he inherited a team with 0 points in 3 league games and bottom of the league, anything is an improvement on that pish LJ served up.

He also inherited a team that turned over a very good Luzern team and showed we have alot of quality.

The first 3 games of the season were white bizarre, be it due to tiredness or just Johnson setting the defence up to let crosses in it was all a bit comical just how poor we were.

David Gray then gets the Aberdeen game though and we win 2-0 away at Pittodrie, a place we rarely go and get a win.

The squads not brilliant, but it’s far better than our form/league position show and he’s simply not got enough out of them to date.

Now he appears to be changing it slightly and has his own players in so hopefully it improves.

Hes had 20 league games in charge and won 5. If he won one more game we’d be joint 6th.

I don’t think joint 6th or 6 wins out of 20 is too much to ask for!

[Paulie Walnuts]

He hasn't failed spectacularly! We have 14 league games to go. Just cos you want rid shouldn't label him a failure already. Some Hibs fans make me despair, so quick to just give up.

He inherited a team who had **** all points under LJ.

The discussion is around bottom 6. If he finishes bottom 6 then that’s failing spectacularly.

I also despair at the idea that bottom 6 isn’t a failure or that it could potentially be a sign of promise.

He also inherited a team who had produced two excellent displays against a very good Luzern side.

[Tyler Durden]

Not that it really matters but its 4231 we are playing. The main difference is the people in those positions. We've played 4231 about 8 times this year now. Even when it was 442 in the actual games it turns more into a 4231 in possession. The phases of play and actions have hardly changed. What's changed is players upping effort and in some cases being replaced with better options.

We could pay 352 with these players, 4222, 3421, 343, any of them would be improved by the players coming back from Int Duty and the additions in Jan.

Can't agree with this. Playing the central 3 midfielders we've seen in the last few games, is not the same as what we had Vente doing previously. It's outwith my skillset but I'd bet if you looked at the player heatmaps, what we've done in the last few games would show markedly different average positions on the field for the midfield and forwards.

We're also playing a higher backline in the last few games. Something that we didn't do against Rangers for example. It's making us more compact and we're able to press better, on this early evidence.

I think Monty deserves credit for these changes, but he could definitely have tried similar things earlier, regardless of the personnel available. The first few goals we lost against Rangers for example were very avoidable and not helped at all by the shape of the team he picked that night.

[Iain G]

He also inherited a team that turned over a very good Luzern team and showed we have alot of quality.

The first 3 games of the season were white bizarre, be it due to tiredness or just Johnson setting the defence up to let crosses in it was all a bit comical just how poor we were.

David Gray then gets the Aberdeen game though and we win 2-0 away at Pittodrie, a place we rarely go and get a win.

The squads not brilliant, but it’s far better than our form/league position show and he’s simply not got enough out of them to date.

Now he appears to be changing it slightly and has his own players in so hopefully it improves.

Hes had 20 league games in charge and won 5. If he won one more game we’d be joint 6th.

I don’t think joint 6th or 6 wins out of 20 is too much to ask for!

We will finish top 6, quit stressing!

[jeffers]

I like Monty, still behind him, but reading this thread it feels like a lot of excuses are being made for him. If we fail to make the top 6 there should be questions asked of his position. Hopefully that won’t happen and we give it a real go at finishing in 4th.

[SickBoy32]

We will finish top 6, quit stressing!

If you truly believe that - the bookies are currently offering 2/1 for us to finish top 6, so they obviously don’t fancy us

The evidence I’ve seen this season makes me pretty sceptical of a top 6 finish too unfortunately

I think the blame for that should be shared amongst the manager, the players, and the hierarchy at the club. Failure all round, again.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I’m not quite sure how you think showing a lot of improvement and finishing in the bottom 6 can co-exist.

That confused me too. 🤔

[Donegal Hibby]

It makes perfect sense to me, maybe take a step back and look a little longer term. If we are putting down good foundation and playing better football in the next 9/14 games, and it shows we can sign the right quality of player and implement what NM wants us to be, then a small failure to finish top 6 should not matter.

And he inherited a team with 0 points in 3 league games and bottom of the league, anything is an improvement on that pish LJ served up.

Watching us against a struggling St Johnstone side and failing to register a single shot on target as well as the St Mirren game and others I'd also describe as equally as pish too. We finished 5th under LJ and we will see at the end of the season if there's been any improvement made . To many excuses in blaming the last manager for the current ones errors imo. Failure to make the top 6 I don't think is or should be acceptable to a club like ours btw .

[Sparrows tongue]

I’m not quite sure how you think showing a lot of improvement and finishing in the bottom 6 can co-exist. If we finish bottom 6 from where we were when the January window closed then there simply will not have been improvement. Finishing bottom 6 is essentially confirmation that he’s taken us spectacularly backwards.

Indeed.

Very contradictory.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Indeed.

Very contradictory.


Finishing bottom six and a couple of wins against bottom of the table pish is all I can think of?

Bottom six would be a disaster for the club financially, it's not just a shrug of the shoulders thing. Not finishing in a European spot while hertz and the sheep pick up £5m every other year for group stage football is bad enough let alone no second derby at home and Livi visiting instead.

[Winston Ingram]

Very harsh. He was given a mess of a squad with a weak spine, from which we lost three key players for a few weeks leaving us with a sixteen year old at right back and next to no options off the bench.


You can point to a fifth placed finish last season but Hearts, Aberdeen, Rangers, Motherwell, and Dundee United all had bad enough runs to sack their manager, fifth wasn’t exactly any great shakes at all. We also lost Nisbet, big Myko, Egan Riley from that team too.


IMO the squad we’ve had recently was easily relegation quality, but with better midfielders and extra depth my expectations are going up the way from what we get here.


The damage was done in the summer by not strengthening the spine of the team sufficiently then sacking LJ after it was too late to change the squad.

I’m sorry but this is just utter nonsense. That squad qualified for Europe. We may have lost Nisbet but he only started something like 10 league games. Kukharevych the same.

Add to that we got Boyle back, spent £750k on an excellent CF who started the season like a house on fire, as did Youan.

We also brought in a proven SPFL playmaker in Levitt, who Hearts also wanted, and an excellent left back.

Then in came Monty and moved Boyle and Youan back 30 yards and changed Vente’s role from goal scoring to swapping positions with wide midfielders and their numbers unsurprisingly collapsed.

The reason this season is in the toilet is down to this novice’s limited tactical expertise and the fact it’s taken him 25 games to learn from a mistake that’s been clear from day 1.

As for yer Hearts and Aberdeen statement. The may have had bad runs, but that’s what they always do. They’re Hearts and Aberdeen, not Celtic and Rangers

[Northernhibee]

I’m sorry but this is just utter nonsense. That squad qualified for Europe. We may have lost Nisbet but he only started something like 10 league games. Kukharevych the same.

Add to that we got Boyle back, spent £750k on an excellent CF who started the season like a house on fire, as did Youan.

We also brought in a proven SPFL playmaker in Levitt, who Hearts also wanted, and an excellent left back.

Then in came Monty and moved Boyle and Youan back 30 yards and changed Vente’s role from goal scoring to swapping positions with wide midfielders and their numbers unsurprisingly collapsed.

The reason this season is in the toilet is down to this novice’s limited tactical expertise and the fact it’s taken him 25 games to learn from a mistake that’s been clear from day 1.

As for yer Hearts and Aberdeen statement. The may have had bad runs, but that’s what they always do. They’re Hearts and Aberdeen, not Celtic and Rangers
That squad qualified for Europe because Celtic won the Scottish Cup. If on the final day before the split other teams had won their games it would have been bottom six.

We then replaced a striker who could score goals with one that doesn’t and yet again failed to fix the defence and midfield in the summer.

LJ should have bought a lottery ticket after he got to manage the team in Europe as his squad did almost everything they could to not make it happen.

Also add in that it was a squad that got pumped off Andorra’s second best team, and then lost Miller, Boyle, and Rocky from it and you’re telling me that Monty’s not had a relegation quality decaf for some of the season? Give me a break.

Again, if you want to see the real source of the issues at Hibs, look upwards.

[Northernhibee]

As for yer Hearts and Aberdeen statement. The may have had bad runs, but that’s what they always do. They’re Hearts and Aberdeen, not Celtic and Rangers

Incidentally, congratulations for making .net nearly collapse under the weight of the irony in this statement.

If Aberdeen or Hearts go on a bad run, it’s what happens to non OF teams in this league. Hibs go on a bad run, hysterical shrieking about the manager.


Thats some going.

[Hibeesdaft16]

That squad qualified for Europe because Celtic won the Scottish Cup. If on the final day before the split other teams had won their games it would have been bottom six.

We then replaced a striker who could score goals with one that doesn’t and yet again failed to fix the defence and midfield in the summer.

LJ should have bought a lottery ticket after he got to manage the team in Europe as his squad did almost everything they could to not make it happen.

Also add in that it was a squad that got pumped off Andorra’s second best team, and then lost Miller, Boyle, and Rocky from it and you’re telling me that Monty’s not had a relegation quality decaf for some of the season? Give me a break.

Again, if you want to see the real source of the issues at Hibs, look upwards.

There has not been a line up we have produced this season that player for player has had less quality than Livingston, Ross County, St Johnstone, so no we haven't had a relegation quality team at any stage of the season. I'm also being generous as the team and players we have is better than Kilie, Dundee, St Mirren and Motherwell also. The difference is they seem to have managers who know how to line up they players they have to get the best out of them as a team.

[Winston Ingram]

That squad qualified for Europe because Celtic won the Scottish Cup. If on the final day before the split other teams had won their games it would have been bottom six.

We then replaced a striker who could score goals with one that doesn’t and yet again failed to fix the defence and midfield in the summer.

LJ should have bought a lottery ticket after he got to manage the team in Europe as his squad did almost everything they could to not make it happen.

Also add in that it was a squad that got pumped off Andorra’s second best team, and then lost Miller, Boyle, and Rocky from it and you’re telling me that Monty’s not had a relegation quality decaf for some of the season? Give me a break.

Again, if you want to see the real source of the issues at Hibs, look upwards.

Celtic or Rangers 9/10 always win the cup. The reason that striker hasn’t scored goals is because the way this amateur has used him. Can ye imagine how many goals Nisbet would have got spending half of each game at left and right midfield?

I agree the defence isn’t great and it wasn’t great last season either but he certainly hasn’t improved it and for absolute certain he’s made our attack far far worse. In fact, he’s pretty much made every player worse.

Obviously your solution is that it must be all 25+ players that must be at fault, so bin all them and keep the guy that has shown absolutely nothing to suggest he knows what he’s doing.

[Northernhibee]

There has not been a line up we have produced this season that player for player has had less quality than Livingston, Ross County, St Johnstone, so no we haven't had a relegation quality team at any stage of the season. I'm also being generous as the team and players we have is better than Kilie, Dundee, St Mirren and Motherwell also. The difference is they seem to have managers who know how to line up they players they have to get the best out of them as a team.

If my VW Golf was to break down tomorrow, I couldn’t go and buy a load of Ford Focus and Renault Clio parts and expect it to run.

We’ve not, imo, had a coherent recruitment strategy for a while before this last transfer window. It’s been a bunch of cobbled up together journeymen we’ve spent a fortune on who just don’t go together.

[Winston Ingram]

Incidentally, congratulations for making .net nearly collapse under the weight of the irony in this statement.

If Aberdeen or Hearts go on a bad run, it’s what happens to non OF teams in this league. Hibs go on a bad run, hysterical shrieking about the manager.


Thats some going.

A bad run is about 7, 8, 10 games. Not 25.

[The Modfather]

Celtic or Rangers 9/10 always win the cup. The reason that striker hasn’t scored goals is because the way this amateur has used him. Can ye imagine how many goals Nisbet would have got spending half of each game at left and right midfield?

I agree the defence isn’t great and it wasn’t great last season either but he certainly hasn’t improved it and for absolute certain he’s made our attack far far worse. In fact, he’s pretty much made every player worse.

Obviously your solution is that it must be all 25+ players that must be at fault, so bin all them and keep the guy that has shown absolutely nothing to suggest he knows what he’s doing.

We’ve only scored 4 less goals, from a game less, than the 3rd top scorers Hearts. For all the talk about blunting the likes of our forwards, which I agree with to an extent. Scoring goals hasn’t been our issue it’s the fact we’re second bottom for goals conceded, having played a game less than bottom. Which is a result of what Montgomery inherited IMO

[Hibeesdaft16]

If my VW Golf was to break down tomorrow, I couldn’t go and buy a load of Ford Focus and Renault Clio parts and expect it to run.

We’ve not, imo, had a coherent recruitment strategy for a while before this last transfer window. It’s been a bunch of cobbled up together journeymen we’ve spent a fortune on who just don’t go together.

What would you call the the quality of the likes of Livi Ross County and Motherwell have? They have the very definition of cobbled up journeymen same as Killie and St Mirren, Killie and St Mirren have managers who know how to build teams out of them though. We have much better players in every position than they clubs, nowhere near a relegation quality team imo.

Agree with the lack of strategy and just signing players for the sake of it instead of having any sort of plan mind you.

[Heisenberg]

We’ve only scored 4 less goals, from a game less, than the 3rd top scorers Hearts. For all the talk about blunting the likes of our forwards, which I agree with to an extent. Scoring goals hasn’t been our issue it’s the fact we’re second bottom for goals conceded, having played a game less than bottom. Which is a result of what Montgomery inherited IMO

This has always been the case. We have been largely fine for scoring goals but cannot defend the same scenarios we face week in and week out when teams cross the ball into the box. Someone has posted before that we’ve had something crazy like 8 games that we’ve scored twice in this season and not won.

The excuses being made for Vente are wild too. He came in and scored from every shot he took for five games but has been largely anonymous since aside from a couple of assists and loads of running about. Maolida has come in and looked way more of a threat straight away.

[Hibeesdaft16]

We’ve only scored 4 less goals, from a game less, than the 3rd top scorers Hearts. For all the talk about blunting the likes of our forwards, which I agree with to an extent. Scoring goals hasn’t been our issue it’s the fact we’re second bottom for goals conceded, having played a game less than bottom. Which is a result of what Montgomery inherited IMO


The reason we concede so many goals imo is that we can't do the basics and the full backs don't get enough protection. We are dreadful at stopping crossed balls and we are even worse at defending them. That's down to the coaching and the set up of the team. Lessons haven't been learned from the very first day of the season or even pre-season when we lost to Inter whatever the end name was.

[Bakerman]

We’ve only scored 4 less goals, from a game less, than the 3rd top scorers Hearts. For all the talk about blunting the likes of our forwards, which I agree with to an extent. Scoring goals hasn’t been our issue it’s the fact we’re second bottom for goals conceded, having played a game less than bottom. Which is a result of what Montgomery inherited IMO

Good post.

A lot of it has come from the midfield and defense being not the strongest for some time now. I like Fish, and hope we could somehow do a deal to have him stay, Obita has really impressed of late, and Cadden being back is good news. We had a good window, and are looking stronger already. Hopefully, we're addressing the weaknesses of the team, which has been obvious for some time, and looking to kick on. I'm optimistic after seeing an upturn in performances the last week.

[B.H.F.C]

A bad run is about 7, 8, 10 games. Not 25.

He hasn’t had a bad run of 25 games though, the last 7 completely changed things. We were in a good position up until that point and ahead of Hearts. We’ve had our worst run in a long time which has coincided with their best run in years.

[Northernhibee]

What would you call the the quality of the likes of Livi Ross County and Motherwell have? They have the very definition of cobbled up journeymen same as Killie and St Mirren, Killie and St Mirren have managers who know how to build teams out of them though. We have much better players in every position than they clubs, nowhere near a relegation quality team imo.

Agree with the lack of strategy and just signing players for the sake of it instead of having any sort of plan mind you.

Michael Stewart gets a lot of stick for his “identity” chat but Livi, Ross County etc. know how to scrap in this league and pick up points when avoiding the drop. Post Alex Neil, Hamilton were easily the worst team in the top flight and yet they avoided the drop season after season for that reason.

One squad pulling in the same direction will beat eleven individuals happening to wear the same colour shirt. Just look at Bodo/Glimt and some of their results in Europe a few years back,’ and on the flip side look at Chelsea just now.

[Sioux]

I’m not quite sure how you think showing a lot of improvement and finishing in the bottom 6 can co-exist. If we finish bottom 6 from where we were when the January window closed then there simply will not have been improvement. Finishing bottom 6 is essentially confirmation that he’s taken us spectacularly backwards.

Would we going spectacularly backwards if we got to 6th instead of 7th?

[WeeRussell]

Would we going spectacularly backwards if we got to 6th instead of 7th?

Slightly less spectacularly backwards. Or just normal backwards.

[Billy Whizz]

Would we going spectacularly backwards if we got to 6th instead of 7th?

Financially 6th to 7th would cost Hibs around £500k in prize money and lost match ticket revenue

[Winston Ingram]

He hasn’t had a bad run of 25 games though, the last 7 completely changed things. We were in a good position up until that point and ahead of Hearts. We’ve had our worst run in a long time which has coincided with their best run in years.

We’ve awful with the occasional jump to average. Before Saturday, our best performance was a 2nd half in a defeat last week.

[B.H.F.C]

We’ve awful with the occasional jump to average. Before Saturday, our best performance was a 2nd half in a defeat last week.

But in terms of a bad run of results it’s been the last 7 rather than the last 25 you mentioned?

[B.H.F.C]

This has always been the case. We have been largely fine for scoring goals but cannot defend the same scenarios we face week in and week out when teams cross the ball into the box. Someone has posted before that we’ve had something crazy like 8 games that we’ve scored twice in this season and not won.

The excuses being made for Vente are wild too. He came in and scored from every shot he took for five games but has been largely anonymous since aside from a couple of assists and loads of running about. Maolida has come in and looked way more of a threat straight away.

I remember there were a few posters getting a bit stick in the early days of Vente for raising concerns about him not having enough shots or being involved enough in the final third. To be fair, I was probably one that just thought he looked a top finisher and that was good enough. As time has went on it’s become clear it’s not good enough though and it was never sustainable for him to keep scoring with so little efforts on goal. We’re not a good enough team to have someone who basically needs a clear cut chance inside the box to score a goal. I do think he could have been used a bit differently at times but there’s no way it’s all tactical. Might be tougher for him to get minutes now with Maolida looking like he’ll be first pick and Le Fondre on in front of him on Saturday.

I’ve posted the stat about the number of times we’ve scored two goals and failed to win. Whilst I think there has been plenty to criticise Monty for, there is absolutely nothing tactical that have caused the goals against in some of those games. The last two 2-2 draws against Killie and Motherwell are the perfect examples of games we should have won but just can’t do the basics defensively.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Would we going spectacularly backwards if we got to 6th instead of 7th?

We’d still have went backwards. The significance of finishing bottom half to a club like Hibs though is huge and certainly not to be sniffed at and most definitely not something that can be written off as being acceptable.

[ScottB]

We’d still have went backwards. The significance of finishing bottom half to a club like Hibs though is huge and certainly not to be sniffed at and most definitely not something that can be written off as being acceptable.

Given the money spent, bottom 6 is a sacking offence unless it was paired with a cup win.

[Stevie Reid]

We’ve only scored 4 less goals, from a game less, than the 3rd top scorers Hearts. For all the talk about blunting the likes of our forwards, which I agree with to an extent. Scoring goals hasn’t been our issue it’s the fact we’re second bottom for goals conceded, having played a game less than bottom. Which is a result of what Montgomery inherited IMO

Scoring goals has been an issue since NM came in. We had seven in four league games before he arrived, so we’ve 22 goals from his 20 games - that equates to 41.8 goals across a 38 game season. That’s a team struggling to score.

We were conceding at a rate of 2 per game before he arrived, so 31 conceded in his 20 games is a bit of an improvement. Still would work out at 58.9 goals across a whole season.

We’re not gonna have a high league finish with a minus 17 goal difference.

[Northernhibee]

Given the money spent, bottom 6 is a sacking offence unless it was paired with a cup win.

The money thrown at the team in the last two years has been horrifically badly spent IMO, that shouldn’t be a judge of it.

[Stevie Reid]

That squad qualified for Europe because Celtic won the Scottish Cup. If on the final day before the split other teams had won their games it would have been bottom six.

We then replaced a striker who could score goals with one that doesn’t and yet again failed to fix the defence and midfield in the summer.

LJ should have bought a lottery ticket after he got to manage the team in Europe as his squad did almost everything they could to not make it happen.

Also add in that it was a squad that got pumped off Andorra’s second best team, and then lost Miller, Boyle, and Rocky from it and you’re telling me that Monty’s not had a relegation quality decaf for some of the season? Give me a break.

Again, if you want to see the real source of the issues at Hibs, look upwards.

The first paragraph honestly adds nothing to the debate. The squad still qualified for Europe. The bit you’ve written about the top six basically means if other teams had won more points than us, things would have been different. Hardly a major revelation.

I’m not going to go over the same arguments we had earlier, but you claim you’re not doing gymnastics to make a case for NM - all whilst making a litany of excuses for him and completely running down what Johnson did, with the majority of the same squad.

Putting us qualifying for Europe last year down to luck is desperate stuff. If we make top six and qualify for Europe in exactly the same fashion this year, you seriously telling me you’re gonna be as disparaging about NM?

[B.H.F.C]

Scoring goals has been an issue since NM came in. We had seven in four league games before he arrived, so we’ve 22 goals from his 20 games - that equates to 41.8 goals across a 38 game season. That’s a team struggling to score.

We were conceding at a rate of 2 per game before he arrived, so 31 conceded in his 20 games is a bit of an improvement. Still would work out at 58.9 goals across a whole season.

We’re not gonna have a high league finish with a minus 17 goal difference.

7 times we’ve failed to score since he came in, in the league. 3 times against the Old Firm, once against Hearts when we missed a penalty, once against Dundee when we had something like 25 shots on goal. The 2 games against St Mirren and St Johnstone we’re two of the worst performances you’ll ever see and we wouldn’t have scored if still playing now.

Pretty hopeful we’ll pick up in terms of goals now with the shape change and the fact we have someone up front who looks a threat.

Still look at all the 2-2 draws where we’ve conceded so many ridiculous goals as being the biggest issue; Kilmarnock x2, St Mirren, Motherwell and Ross County. That’s 10 points we’ve chucked away because of our inability to defend.

[ScottB]

The money thrown at the team in the last two years has been horrifically badly spent IMO, that shouldn’t be a judge of it.

I would include our Director of Football in the sacking for that reason…

[Northernhibee]

I would include our Director of Football in the sacking for that reason…

He’s only been here for some of that though. Look for the constants.

[Northernhibee]

The first paragraph honestly adds nothing to the debate. The squad still qualified for Europe. The bit you’ve written about the top six basically means if other teams had won more points than us, things would have been different. Hardly a major revelation.

I’m not going to go over the same arguments we had earlier, but you claim you’re not doing gymnastics to make a case for NM - all whilst making a litany of excuses for him and completely running down what Johnson did, with the majority of the same squad.

Putting us qualifying for Europe last year down to luck is desperate stuff. If we make top six and qualify for Europe in exactly the same fashion this year, you seriously telling me you’re gonna be as disparaging about NM?

We qualified for Europe because Celtic won the cup, that is fact. Irrefutable, apart from on here or so it would seem. Same with the last game before the split - failing to beat St Johnstone left us vulnerable and if other teams took their chance then we would have been bottom six. Again, fact. This was a top six squad last season through a very large slice of good fortune.

LJ was a seriously lucky man with a notably stronger squad than Monty has had to work with up to the middle of this transfer window.

So aye, the first paragraph adds plenty. Some people making out that the manager has a squad who qualified for Europe entirely on merit missing out the key context, and that we lost some key players in the summer and replaced them terribly, and then lost further players to the point we were playing a sixteen year old as a starter in defence.


But it’s me doing the mental gymnastics. Aye, right.

[Stevie Reid]

7 times we’ve failed to score since he came in, in the league. 3 times against the Old Firm, once against Hearts when we missed a penalty, once against Dundee when we had something like 25 shots on goal. The 2 games against St Mirren and St Johnstone we’re two of the worst performances you’ll ever see and we wouldn’t have scored if still playing now.

Pretty hopeful we’ll pick up in terms of goals now with the shape change and the fact we have someone up front who looks a threat.

Still look at all the 2-2 draws where we’ve conceded so many ridiculous goals as being the biggest issue; Kilmarnock x2, St Mirren, Motherwell and Ross County. That’s 10 points we’ve chucked away because of our inability to defend.

I know we’ve been back and forth over Vente a million times, so I’ve no wish to go over old ground - suffice to say I really rate him and would rather he had a run in this new shape, which seems to be much more positive.

That said, I don’t think he can have any real complaints about someone else getting a shot. Still far too early to say that Maolida looks more of a threat though, IMO. In five appearances he’s looked completely lost in two of his three starts, and scored a couple of important goals (definitely made a huge difference off the bench against Celtic the other night).

Think both goals were deflections? Don’t get me wrong, they all count and he showed a nice bit of skill in the lead up to the one on Saturday. You can’t win the lottery if you don’t buy a ticket, and it does strengthen your argument that Vente maybe should shoot more.

Just yet to see evidence that he’s a better finisher than Vente - time will tell. He’s two goals in five, Vente had five in his first ten, so similar so far in terms of ratios.

Ultimately, as long as we have someone scoring goals and we are climbing the league, I’ll be happy. We’ve made a big investment in Vente as our own player and I think it’s a shame he’s not been utilised in a front three with Boyle and Youan more often this season.

But maybe dropping him for Maolida will prove to be the smart move, we’ll see. I do really hope that we keep hold of Vente, either way.

[Donegal Hibby]

13 out of the 20 games Monty's been in charge the other team have had more shots than us .

[Stevie Reid]

We qualified for Europe because Celtic won the cup, that is fact. Irrefutable, apart from on here or so it would seem. Same with the last game before the split - failing to beat St Johnstone left us vulnerable and if other teams took their chance then we would have been bottom six. Again, fact. This was a top six squad last season through a very large slice of good fortune.

LJ was a seriously lucky man with a notably stronger squad than Monty has had to work with up to the middle of this transfer window.

So is the fact that we quailed for Europe. It seems for you that facts matter when it comes to Celtic winning the cup, but not when it comes to us finishing top six after 33 games. As I said, desperate stuff.

We covered the stronger squad chat earlier, it’s nonsense. In terms of luck, LJ could easily point to bad luck in terms of injuries and refereeing decisions last season. However, that’s just football - so suggestion that we achieved what we did entirely down to luck is utter nonsense.

I note that you’ve conveniently ignored my question as to whether you’d judge a similar passage to Europe this season so harshly - but it was rhetorical in any case. Given that you think that NM is a very good manager despite his PPG being 1.15 and his GPG being 1.1, you’d no doubt be full of praise if he were to replicate what LJ did last season.

[B.H.F.C]

I know we’ve been back and forth over Vente a million times, so I’ve no wish to go over old ground - suffice to say I really rate him and would rather he had a run in this new shape, which seems to be much more positive.

That said, I don’t think he can have any real complaints about someone else getting a shot. Still far too early to say that Maolida looks more of a threat though, IMO. In five appearances he’s looked completely lost in two of his three starts, and scored a couple of important goals (definitely made a huge difference off the bench against Celtic the other night).

Think both goals were deflections? Don’t get me wrong, they all count and he showed a nice bit of skill in the lead up to the one on Saturday. You can’t win the lottery if you don’t buy a ticket, and it does strengthen your argument that Vente maybe should shoot more.

Just yet to see evidence that he’s a better finisher than Vente - time will tell. He’s two goals in five, Vente had five in his first ten, so similar so far in terms of ratios.

Ultimately, as long as we have someone scoring goals and we are climbing the league, I’ll be happy. We’ve made a big investment in Vente as our own player and I think it’s a shame he’s not been utilised in a front three with Boyle and Youan more often this season.

But maybe dropping him for Maolida will prove to be the smart move, we’ll see. I do really hope that we keep hold of Vente, either way.

I don’t think there can really be any debate that in his appearances so far he’s looked more of a threat. He’s carried some kind of threat in every game, even the disaster against St Mirren he should have had a penalty. Against Rangers he really should have scored and he’s made a big impact in the two games he came on as a sub along with doing well on Saturday.

I don’t really know if he’s a better finisher than Vente but I think it’s become clear that we can’t just have a finisher up there, we need someone that can do that bit more.

I didn’t actually intend to open up any kind of Vente debate with my post. It was just a general comment that in recent games we’ve looked much more threatening with Maolida on the park. He’s quite unpredictable and I think that will help the players playing either side of him as well as it’ll give defenders that bit more to think about.

[Stevie Reid]

I don’t think there can really be any debate that in his appearances so far he’s looked more of a threat. He’s carried some kind of threat in every game, even the disaster against St Mirren he should have had a penalty. Against Rangers he really should have scored and he’s made a big impact in the two games he came on as a sub along with doing well on Saturday.

I don’t really know if he’s a better finisher than Vente but I think it’s become clear that we can’t just have a finisher up there, we need someone that can do that bit more.

I didn’t actually intend to open up any kind of Vente debate with my post. It was just a general comment that in recent games we’ve looked much more threatening with Maolida on the park. He’s quite unpredictable and I think that will help the players playing either side of him as well as it’ll give defenders that bit more to think about.

Yeah I didn’t think you did, I just always have to get my tuppence worth in about him :greengrin

As I said, happy to see Maolida get a shot. Looks like he can be handful.

[Dashing Bob S]

We need to show some balls and bin the Monty must go talk till this time next year. Chopping and changing has done nothing for us.

[HoboHarry]

We need to show some balls and bin the Monty must go talk till this time next year. Chopping and changing has done nothing for us.

We'd lose 30% of our daily posters :greengrin

[J-C]

We'd lose 30% of our daily posters :greengrin

Amazing that a far better display against Celtic who needed 2 pens to beat us and a very decent win/performance against ICT and there's still people wanting him gone. I get the feeling if we do get top 6 and win the cup, some on here will still want him emptied.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Amazing that a far better display against Celtic who needed 2 pens to beat us and a very decent win/performance against ICT and there's still people wanting him gone. I get the feeling if we do get top 6 and win the cup, some on here will still want him emptied.

It was a home defeat and a win against a team at the bottom end of the league below us. It’s hardly the shock of the century that people need a hell of a lot more convincing than that.

[Winston Ingram]

We need to show some balls and bin the Monty must go talk till this time next year. Chopping and changing has done nothing for us.

I would agree with you if he had done anything to suggest he has a clue what he’s doing. He has done the complete opposite.

[jakeshibs]

We need to show some balls and bin the Monty must go talk till this time next year. Chopping and changing has done nothing for us.


Well said I am of the same opinion as just want some stability

[Winston Ingram]

Amazing that a far better display against Celtic who needed 2 pens to beat us and a very decent win/performance against ICT and there's still people wanting him gone. I get the feeling if we do get top 6 and win the cup, some on here will still want him emptied.

I think it’s amazing that he’s had 1 impressive half in 20 league games, and that half was in a game that was a defeat, and someone thinks that’s enough evidence to convince an entire fan base that he knows what he’s doing after previously showing hee haw.

[Paulie Walnuts]

We need to show some balls and bin the Monty must go talk till this time next year. Chopping and changing has done nothing for us.

I’m not sure it’s chopping and changing that’s done nothing for us. It’s appointing crap managers.

We gave Lee Johnson 3 windows. Holding onto him for the summer window this year is now being used as an excuse for us potentially finishing bottom 6 despite the fact he only managed 3 games. So it’s safe to say giving him that has done nothing for us either.

[Since452]

Amazing that a far better display against Celtic who needed 2 pens to beat us and a very decent win/performance against ICT and there's still people wanting him gone. I get the feeling if we do get top 6 and win the cup, some on here will still want him emptied.

The same Celtic that Hearts beat at Celtic Park and who Aberdeen drew with a week before we lost to them? It will take much more that a glorious defeat against a team our main rivals are taking points off to convince people that Montgomery is worth keeping.

[J-C]

The same Celtic that Hearts beat at Celtic Park and who Aberdeen drew with a week before we lost to them? It will take much more that a glorious defeat to convince people that Montgomery is worth keeping.

There were definite signs of improvement and team cohesion which carried on to the ICT game, we've just added 7 new players with the majority looking a big improvement, let's see how the next few weeks pan out and if we're still struggling, then we can talk about his job.

[easty]

Amazing that a far better display against Celtic who needed 2 pens to beat us and a very decent win/performance against ICT and there's still people wanting him gone. I get the feeling if we do get top 6 and win the cup, some on here will still want him emptied.

2 wins in 9 games, both against lower league teams in the cup.

Trying to paint it as a turnaround is a stretch.

[McGruber]

Amazing that a far better display against Celtic who needed 2 pens to beat us and a very decent win/performance against ICT and there's still people wanting him gone. I get the feeling if we do get top 6 and win the cup, some on here will still want him emptied.

It was far better JC but we have seen poor Hibs teams raise their game for the big old firm game before then revert to type after. Saying that, it's a bit disingenuous though to write off the win v Inverness as being routine v lower league team. I mean technically yes but that's a hard cup tie up there no doubt.

It is limited evidence but it does feel like a corner is being turned (I'm the eternal optimist). I think the change of shape gives me the most hope - biggest reason I was in the Monty out camp was his stubborness to change it and I didn't think he would. He's now one that is showing he can learn from mistakes which is a great trait and is changing my thinking.

A performance and result at Aberdeen - even a draw - would keep us ticking along then amongst the other games we have to be taking 9 points off Ross Co double header and Dundee at ER. Not won many this season so that would be evidence of a turnaround for me.

Strong showing in the derby also required, not saying anything about a result there however

[matty_f]

It was far better JC but we have seen poor Hibs teams raise their game for the big old firm game before then revert to type after. Saying that, it's a bit disingenuous though to write off the win v Inverness as being routine v lower league team. I mean technically yes but that's a hard cup tie up there no doubt.

It is limited evidence but it does feel like a corner is being turned (I'm the eternal optimist). I think the change of shape gives me the most hope - biggest reason I was in the Monty out camp was his stubborness to change it and I didn't think he would. He's now one that is showing he can learn from mistakes which is a great trait and is changing my thinking.

A performance and result at Aberdeen - even a draw - would keep us ticking along then amongst the other games we have to be taking 9 points off Ross Co double header and Dundee at ER. Not won many this season so that would be evidence of a turnaround for me.

Strong showing in the derby also required, not saying anything about a result there however

Agree with this, I think there were many encouraging signs in the Celtic game, even though it was a defeat, and it would be as churlish to ignore them as it would to pretend it was a good result.

Inverness was a good result, however you cut it. The performance was good, we won, we scored three and the folk that went had a smashing day out and came down the road buzzing.

There are undoubtedly positives to be taken from the last two games, but it is only two games and we need to see that carried into Saturday's game and beyond before we can say if we've actually turned a corner or not.

I think we can see the difference the new guys have made, along with the return to the side of Boyle and Miller, and that does give cause for optimism for the rest of the season unless you're absolutely determined to be pessimistic.

[ChilliEater]

I would agree with you if he had done anything to suggest he has a clue what he’s doing. He has done the complete opposite.

More hyperbolic nonsense.

You clearly don't like what he is doing - totally fair opinion, with plenty evidence to support it. Recent results have been poor under the game style he is implementing. After a promising start, performances, hopefully now changing after the last 2, have been poor under his guidance. But even the biggest numpty on the planet - and I've been on here long enough, reading your posts, to know that you're not a numpty - can see that he has a very clear way of playing that he wants the team to follow. A way that he has had success with, albeit only over 2 seasons, with his previous team. Right now there have to be doubts about whether or not he can get it to work here, but to state that everything he's done suggests he has no clue is completely ridiculous. He has stuck with the pass out from the back, possession based game plan, even after poor results/performances - I'd say that shows that he has total belief in his system and is confident that it just needs time to get it working effectively.

He seems to be the opposite of Johnson. When we were good under LJ we were very good, but it seemed that, as soon as we had a poor game, he would make big changes in an effort to hit a winning formula again. That made me think that he had little idea of what had made us good or bad and it was all a bit random. NM seems to want to stick with the same formula regardless and try to get the players to get better at implementing it. I'd say that NM's approach is more likely to produce long term success. The change in approach - whether it was NM replacing LJ or LJ replacing NM - would take a bit of adjusting too from the players as well, irrespective of how good or bad they might be.

I'd like to see him get the rest of the season to see if we can, at least replicate, but preferably improve on, the performance level of the last 2 games - the second halves in particular. Even his biggest supporters have to see red flags, but even his biggest detractors can surely see some potential too.

[worcesterhibby]

More hyperbolic nonsense.

You clearly don't like what he is doing - totally fair opinion, with plenty evidence to support it. Recent results have been poor under the game style he is implementing. After a promising start, performances, hopefully now changing after the last 2, have been poor under his guidance. But even the biggest numpty on the planet - and I've been on here long enough, reading your posts, to know that you're not a numpty - can see that he has a very clear way of playing that he wants the team to follow. A way that he has had success with, albeit only over 2 seasons, with his previous team. Right now there have to be doubts about whether or not he can get it to work here, but to state that everything he's done suggests he has no clue is completely ridiculous. He has stuck with the pass out from the back, possession based game plan, even after poor results/performances - I'd say that shows that he has total belief in his system and is confident that it just needs time to get it working effectively.

He seems to be the opposite of Johnson. When we were good under LJ we were very good, but it seemed that, as soon as we had a poor game, he would make big changes in an effort to hit a winning formula again. That made me think that he had little idea of what had made us good or bad and it was all a bit random. NM seems to want to stick with the same formula regardless and try to get the players to get better at implementing it. I'd say that NM's approach is more likely to produce long term success. The change in approach - whether it was NM replacing LJ or LJ replacing NM - would take a bit of adjusting too from the players as well, irrespective of how good or bad they might be.

I'd like to see him get the rest of the season to see if we can, at least replicate, but preferably improve on, the performance level of the last 2 games - the second halves in particular. Even his biggest supporters have to see red flags, but even his biggest detractors can surely see some potential too.

You do realise that Hibs.net is part of the internet don't you ? I think you'll find there is no place for reasoned, middle ground, sensible views on the interweb. Everything is either utterly sh&&te or completely amazing.. I'd have though you would have worked that out by now ! :greengrin

[HoboHarry]

You do realise that Hibs.net is part of the internet don't you ? I think you'll find there is no place for reasoned, middle ground, sensible views on the interweb. Everything is either utterly sh&&te or completely amazing.. I'd have though you would have worked that out by now ! :greengrin
I think "pish" is the de rigueur term......

[ChilliEater]

You do realise that Hibs.net is part of the internet don't you ? I think you'll find there is no place for reasoned, middle ground, sensible views on the interweb. Everything is either utterly sh&&te or completely amazing.. I'd have though you would have worked that out by now ! :greengrin

:greengrin

As a dull, bland and grey middle aged man, I've decided to call out excitement in all forms and try to drag everything back to some sort of mundane middle ground. :greengrin

Nah - I'm just a bit over the OTT negativity. I'm not a fan of OTT positivity either - but it always seems pretty harmless and I wouldn't feel right p****** on someone's chips if they're feeling super positive. That might change should we ever get the uber-positive version of the tsunami of forcefully delivered bed-wetting that we are currently awash with, but I'll cross that bridge should I ever come to it.

[WhileTheChief..]

I doubt anyone is determined to be pessimistic, that’s a weird take on things.

I think realistic is a more apt term to be used here. The return of Boyle and Miller is welcome but neither of them were all that good before their absence.

[MikeyS]

I doubt anyone is determined to be pessimistic, that’s a weird take on things.

I think realistic is a more apt term to be used here. The return of Boyle and Miller is welcome but neither of them were all that good before their absence.


I was very disappointed with the pair of them prior to their Asia cup venture.

Miller has so much potential but is prone to some silly mistakes due to concentration or diving in. When he smooths out those edges we may have some player on our hands.

Hopefully the arrival of Maolida sees the best of Boyle too. There is now no need for Monty to shove Boyle up top and hope for the best. Get him high and wide where we all know he can hurt any team in this league.

[ChilliEater]

I doubt anyone is determined to be pessimistic, that’s a weird take on things.

I think realistic is a more apt term to be used here. The return of Boyle and Miller is welcome but neither of them were all that good before their absence.

It would be - it's also not what I said. I think we're all fed up with the, mostly, downward trajectory since 2016. The excitement with the arrival of new owners replacing "penny pinching" Petrie has not been backed up on the pitch. The latest accounts, on the surface at least, look like it's not being backed up as much as we hoped for off the pitch either. Jack Ross was a decent, but uninspiring, manager - rather like a new Alex Miller - but then Maloney and Johnson (despite some good performances) were really poor appointments. IMHO that's led to very little patience with the next person - just so happens that it's Montgomery, but I don't think it would matter who it was, a few poor results/performances and it's a case of "here we go again, another clown, let's get rid before he ruins us...". I think the pessimism is totally understandable and not a deliberate conscious choice, and I've no issue at all with a "glass half empty" approach. There are a couple of long term, Hibs through and through, posters on here who tend towards it, but they are (IMHO anyway :wink: ) well respected and valued contributors and the forum is a far better place for their input. If we all agreed on everything it wouldn't be worth visiting. However, there seems to be a small, but growing, number of posters who scream "shambles" at every perceived setback. It's not balanced, it's not reasoned and it doesn't lead to interesting debate. It's like the reaction of a toddler at the supermarket when they don't get a CurlyWurly.

[heretoday]

May as well hang on for now.

[WhileTheChief..]

It would be - it's also not what I said. I think we're all fed up with the, mostly, downward trajectory since 2016. The excitement with the arrival of new owners replacing "penny pinching" Petrie has not been backed up on the pitch. The latest accounts, on the surface at least, look like it's not being backed up as much as we hoped for off the pitch either. Jack Ross was a decent, but uninspiring, manager - rather like a new Alex Miller - but then Maloney and Johnson (despite some good performances) were really poor appointments. IMHO that's led to very little patience with the next person - just so happens that it's Montgomery, but I don't think it would matter who it was, a few poor results/performances and it's a case of "here we go again, another clown, let's get rid before he ruins us...". I think the pessimism is totally understandable and not a deliberate conscious choice, and I've no issue at all with a "glass half empty" approach. There are a couple of long term, Hibs through and through, posters on here who tend towards it, but they are (IMHO anyway :wink: ) well respected and valued contributors and the forum is a far better place for their input. If we all agreed on everything it wouldn't be worth visiting. However, there seems to be a small, but growing, number of posters who scream "shambles" at every perceived setback. It's not balanced, it's not reasoned and it doesn't lead to interesting debate. It's like the reaction of a toddler at the supermarket when they don't get a CurlyWurly.

Wasn’t talking about your post. I was responding to the post that did mention being pessimistic.

[blackpoolhibs]

I could point to results many of our under fire managers have had that kept them in another week, only for us to slip back into the usual pish they had previously served up.

Is the return of a couple of players and the signing of these players in the last window the reason this will be different this time?:dunno::worried::pray:

[The Modfather]

I could point to results many of our under fire managers have had that kept them in another week, only for us to slip back into the usual pish they had previously served up.

Is the return of a couple of players and the signing of these players in the last window the reason this will be different this time?:dunno::worried::pray:

I’m hoping this season essentially gets split into two. Montgomery’s pre January window where there’s two valid arguments. Montgomery wasn’t setting the team up to get the best out of what he had, and also the squad he had wasn’t actually very good.

Then post January signings and getting them into the team. The last two games have been encouraging and hopefully a clearer picture of what his team can/will look like the more of his own players he gets. Proof will be in the pudding over the next few months. Although we’ve left ourselves little wiggle room in terms of top 6. If we continue the upward trend and look like we now know how to recruit sensibly to put a functioning and more consistent team together, in those circumstances I’d be willing overlook leaving too much to do to make the top 6. If we stumble along and are poor as well as not getting results and are bottom 6 then I don’t think there’s an argument for him getting the summer window.

[WeeRussell]

I I think realistic is a more apt term to be used here..

Nah. I don’t think “absolutely determined to be realistic” would have worked in Matty’s post.

And there are posters, genuine or otherwise, that are determined to only post negatives. Denying that is a strange take.

[neil7908]

I could point to results many of our under fire managers have had that kept them in another week, only for us to slip back into the usual pish they had previously served up.

Is the return of a couple of players and the signing of these players in the last window the reason this will be different this time?:dunno::worried::pray:

I'm not saying Monty is 100% the guy but equally there are enough examples out there of managers who have been on a shoogly peg or under performed and turned it around.

Alex Ferguson is the obvious one but I know it's a long time ago.

Klopp finished 8th in his first year at Liverpool after taking over a team in 10th.

Arteta is probably the best example recently. Plenty of fans were calling for his head at one point - now he's the messiah.

Even Ten Hag at United seems to be turning them around now that key players are back from injury and new signings are settling in.

None of that means Monty will work, but there are loads of examples of managers having a poor start to a job or a bad spell and turning it around. For me there are enough points in his favour that he should get more time.

[Keith_M]

When you look at how far back we have to go in league games to find a win, then I totally understand why a lot of people aren't feeling too positive about Monty....

27686

I'm not saying that there's no possibility he'll turn it around, but it's (understandably) going take a massive improvement to win over a lot of our support.

[WhileTheChief..]

Are a lot of the support really against him? Or are they just disappointed with recent results?

It's not the feeling I get around ER. To me, it feels like we're waiting patiently for something to happen.

For all the talk of negativity on here, look at the crowds and ST sales we've had. Not too shabby at all, and doesn't point to a fan base that has turned against their team or manager.

Most of us can see the problems, and the efforts that have bene made to fix them in the window. We all want to see an improvement in results, and if that happens, NM will be fine.

[matty_f]

I doubt anyone is determined to be pessimistic, that’s a weird take on things.

I think realistic is a more apt term to be used here. The return of Boyle and Miller is welcome but neither of them were all that good before their absence.

But they, along with the new players, have already contributed to demonstrably better performances over the last two games, so realism would align closer to optimism than pessimism - the evidence suggests we'll be better with them and the new players than we were before, albeit from a small sample size.

[matty_f]

Nah. I don’t think “absolutely determined to be realistic” would have worked in Matty’s post.

And there are posters, genuine or otherwise, that are determined to only post negatives. Denying that is a strange take.

Yep. And also, realistic isn't the counter to optimistic. You can be optimistic and realistic as much as you can be pessimistic and realistic. Never understood this idea that negativity equates to realism.

[Hibs4185]

I wanted him out but I’m feeling a bit more optimistic after a couple of better performances.

If he wins 3/4 of the next 6 games, then I’ll happily admit I was wrong.

Next 3 games are crucial though. Loose 2 of them and I think he’ll be away!

[BS44]

I doubt anyone is determined to be pessimistic, that’s a weird take on things.

I think realistic is a more apt term to be used here. The return of Boyle and Miller is welcome but neither of them were all that good before their absence.

The pair of them looked like they were doing their best to avoid getting injured before they went off to play for Australia

[jacomo]

More hyperbolic nonsense.

You clearly don't like what he is doing - totally fair opinion, with plenty evidence to support it. Recent results have been poor under the game style he is implementing. After a promising start, performances, hopefully now changing after the last 2, have been poor under his guidance. But even the biggest numpty on the planet - and I've been on here long enough, reading your posts, to know that you're not a numpty - can see that he has a very clear way of playing that he wants the team to follow. A way that he has had success with, albeit only over 2 seasons, with his previous team. Right now there have to be doubts about whether or not he can get it to work here, but to state that everything he's done suggests he has no clue is completely ridiculous. He has stuck with the pass out from the back, possession based game plan, even after poor results/performances - I'd say that shows that he has total belief in his system and is confident that it just needs time to get it working effectively.

He seems to be the opposite of Johnson. When we were good under LJ we were very good, but it seemed that, as soon as we had a poor game, he would make big changes in an effort to hit a winning formula again. That made me think that he had little idea of what had made us good or bad and it was all a bit random. NM seems to want to stick with the same formula regardless and try to get the players to get better at implementing it. I'd say that NM's approach is more likely to produce long term success. The change in approach - whether it was NM replacing LJ or LJ replacing NM - would take a bit of adjusting too from the players as well, irrespective of how good or bad they might be.

I'd like to see him get the rest of the season to see if we can, at least replicate, but preferably improve on, the performance level of the last 2 games - the second halves in particular. Even his biggest supporters have to see red flags, but even his biggest detractors can surely see some potential too.


:agree:

Really good post.

[jacomo]

Are a lot of the support really against him? Or are they just disappointed with recent results?

It's not the feeling I get around ER. To me, it feels like we're waiting patiently for something to happen.

For all the talk of negativity on here, look at the crowds and ST sales we've had. Not too shabby at all, and doesn't point to a fan base that has turned against their team or manager.

Most of us can see the problems, and the efforts that have bene made to fix them in the window. We all want to see an improvement in results, and if that happens, NM will be fine.


This is another fine post.

[Unseen work]

Are a lot of the support really against him? Or are they just disappointed with recent results?

It's not the feeling I get around ER. To me, it feels like we're waiting patiently for something to happen.

For all the talk of negativity on here, look at the crowds and ST sales we've had. Not too shabby at all, and doesn't point to a fan base that has turned against their team or manager.

Most of us can see the problems, and the efforts that have bene made to fix them in the window. We all want to see an improvement in results, and if that happens, NM will be fine.

I don’t think anyone is against him but it’s quite simple imo and that’s that the results since he’s came in haven’t been good enough.

We can make excuses but even with injuries etc we should have had more points, I don’t think that’s asking alot.

I don’t think he helped himself early on when we were in the lead and he made some questionable subs etc

Thankfully now he appears to be changing the shape and is becoming a bit more savvy

[HoboHarry]

More hyperbolic nonsense.

You clearly don't like what he is doing - totally fair opinion, with plenty evidence to support it. Recent results have been poor under the game style he is implementing. After a promising start, performances, hopefully now changing after the last 2, have been poor under his guidance. But even the biggest numpty on the planet - and I've been on here long enough, reading your posts, to know that you're not a numpty - can see that he has a very clear way of playing that he wants the team to follow. A way that he has had success with, albeit only over 2 seasons, with his previous team. Right now there have to be doubts about whether or not he can get it to work here, but to state that everything he's done suggests he has no clue is completely ridiculous. He has stuck with the pass out from the back, possession based game plan, even after poor results/performances - I'd say that shows that he has total belief in his system and is confident that it just needs time to get it working effectively.

He seems to be the opposite of Johnson. When we were good under LJ we were very good, but it seemed that, as soon as we had a poor game, he would make big changes in an effort to hit a winning formula again. That made me think that he had little idea of what had made us good or bad and it was all a bit random. NM seems to want to stick with the same formula regardless and try to get the players to get better at implementing it. I'd say that NM's approach is more likely to produce long term success. The change in approach - whether it was NM replacing LJ or LJ replacing NM - would take a bit of adjusting too from the players as well, irrespective of how good or bad they might be.

I'd like to see him get the rest of the season to see if we can, at least replicate, but preferably improve on, the performance level of the last 2 games - the second halves in particular. Even his biggest supporters have to see red flags, but even his biggest detractors can surely see some potential too.
:agree: I'm sure I read that he managed for several months in Australia then starting clearing the decks and bringing in his own players suited to his system just like he's started doing here. Great post and I agree with all of it.

[Dashing Bob S]

More hyperbolic nonsense.

You clearly don't like what he is doing - totally fair opinion, with plenty evidence to support it. Recent results have been poor under the game style he is implementing. After a promising start, performances, hopefully now changing after the last 2, have been poor under his guidance. But even the biggest numpty on the planet - and I've been on here long enough, reading your posts, to know that you're not a numpty - can see that he has a very clear way of playing that he wants the team to follow. A way that he has had success with, albeit only over 2 seasons, with his previous team. Right now there have to be doubts about whether or not he can get it to work here, but to state that everything he's done suggests he has no clue is completely ridiculous. He has stuck with the pass out from the back, possession based game plan, even after poor results/performances - I'd say that shows that he has total belief in his system and is confident that it just needs time to get it working effectively.

He seems to be the opposite of Johnson. When we were good under LJ we were very good, but it seemed that, as soon as we had a poor game, he would make big changes in an effort to hit a winning formula again. That made me think that he had little idea of what had made us good or bad and it was all a bit random. NM seems to want to stick with the same formula regardless and try to get the players to get better at implementing it. I'd say that NM's approach is more likely to produce long term success. The change in approach - whether it was NM replacing LJ or LJ replacing NM - would take a bit of adjusting too from the players as well, irrespective of how good or bad they might be.

I'd like to see him get the rest of the season to see if we can, at least replicate, but preferably improve on, the performance level of the last 2 games - the second halves in particular. Even his biggest supporters have to see red flags, but even his biggest detractors can surely see some potential too.

Great post. 100%

[Keepthefaith]

Are a lot of the support really against him? Or are they just disappointed with recent results?

It's not the feeling I get around ER. To me, it feels like we're waiting patiently for something to happen.

For all the talk of negativity on here, look at the crowds and ST sales we've had. Not too shabby at all, and doesn't point to a fan base that has turned against their team or manager.

Most of us can see the problems, and the efforts that have bene made to fix them in the window. We all want to see an improvement in results, and if that happens, NM will be fine.

I think a lot of posters on here have been against him, and if you read the (many) negative threads after a defeat its awful the kind of language folk use, stuff like imposter etc etc. you'll also find far more folk posting after a defeat than a victory, which I have always found odd. waiting patiently is not how I experience the vitriolic responses folk have posted, including comments about some of the signings who others can now see as having real potential. the crowd against Celtic was exactly a representation of folk being against him however the few who did turn up supported the team well and acknowledged the improvement, likewise the amazing support against ICT.

patient absolutely does not describe our support. sure I get that folk have been pissed off with underacheivement the last few years but we have to also recognise change can take time. folk are far from patient when they were calling for Monty to go 1 game after the close of the jan transfer window!

it's frustrating as fans somehow think a change of manager will automatically bring the success we're not yet getting under Monty. as Neil says in the posts above, there are loads of examples of managers having awful starts or dips in form, only to turn it around. I also follow Norwich (my mum is from there) and have seen how their fans were baying for Wagner to get sacked, that they were in danger of relegation. they stuck with him and are now in a play off spot. sometimes we need to respect the patience our club is showing and continue to support them even when the doubts creep into our own minds.

[jacomo]

I think a lot of posters on here have been against him, and if you read the (many) negative threads after a defeat its awful the kind of language folk use, stuff like imposter etc etc. you'll also find far more folk posting after a defeat than a victory, which I have always found odd. waiting patiently is not how I experience the vitriolic responses folk have posted, including comments about some of the signings who others can now see as having real potential. the crowd against Celtic was exactly a representation of folk being against him however the few who did turn up supported the team well and acknowledged the improvement, likewise the amazing support against ICT.

patient absolutely does not describe our support. sure I get that folk have been pissed off with underacheivement the last few years but we have to also recognise change can take time. folk are far from patient when they were calling for Monty to go 1 game after the close of the jan transfer window!

it's frustrating as fans somehow think a change of manager will automatically bring the success we're not yet getting under Monty. as Neil says in the posts above, there are loads of examples of managers having awful starts or dips in form, only to turn it around. I also follow Norwich (my mum is from there) and have seen how their fans were baying for Wagner to get sacked, that they were in danger of relegation. they stuck with him and are now in a play off spot. sometimes we need to respect the patience our club is showing and continue to support them even when the doubts creep into our own minds.


It’s a truism across many different sectors that unhappy punters let you know about it whereas satisfied customers just get on with the rest of their life.

So it’s by no means unusual that it’s noisier on here and elsewhere after a defeat.

[WeeRussell]

It’s a truism across many different sectors that unhappy punters let you know about it whereas satisfied customers just get on with the rest of their life.

So it’s by no means unusual that it’s noisier on here and elsewhere after a defeat.

Get what you’re saying but this isn’t a feedback site for the club. It’s meant to be discussion on all things Hibs.

I also find it strange/suspicious behaviour when people only want to come and post repeatedly after a poor result, or come on in the lead-up to a game trying to convince anyone that’ll listen that we don’t stand a chance in our next game and start bringing up threads about relegation etc…. Yet don’t seem interested in any discussion whatsoever when things are going well (unless of course it’s to temper enthusiasm and tell folk we were playing nobody)

Some people are naturally negative about their team. We know what a lot of the others are.

I wonder sometimes if it’s become more prominent, in part, due to the holy ground being closed-off and some posters not having that avenue to occupy and amuse themselves with…

[jacomo]

Get what you’re saying but this isn’t a feedback site for the club. It’s meant to be discussion on all things Hibs.

I also find it strange/suspicious behaviour when people only want to come and post repeatedly after a poor result, or come on in the lead-up to a game trying to convince anyone that’ll listen that we don’t stand a chance in our next game and start bringing up threads about relegation etc…. Yet don’t seem interested in any discussion whatsoever when things are going well (unless of course it’s to temper enthusiasm and tell folk we were playing nobody)

Some people are naturally negative about their team. We know what a lot of the others are.

I wonder sometimes if it’s become more prominent, in part, due to the holy ground being closed-off and some posters not having that avenue to occupy and amuse themselves with…


You make a lot of good points.

The Holy Ground is the natural outlet… what happened to it? I rarely posted there but lurked sometimes as discussion could be very good.

[Haymaker]

You make a lot of good points.

The Holy Ground is the natural outlet… what happened to it? I rarely posted there but lurked sometimes as discussion could be very good.

I believe it is closed to all but PMs after too many threads went sideways.

[Centre Hawf]

I think a lot of posters on here have been against him, and if you read the (many) negative threads after a defeat its awful the kind of language folk use, stuff like imposter etc etc. you'll also find far more folk posting after a defeat than a victory, which I have always found odd. waiting patiently is not how I experience the vitriolic responses folk have posted, including comments about some of the signings who others can now see as having real potential. the crowd against Celtic was exactly a representation of folk being against him however the few who did turn up supported the team well and acknowledged the improvement, likewise the amazing support against ICT.

patient absolutely does not describe our support. sure I get that folk have been pissed off with underacheivement the last few years but we have to also recognise change can take time. folk are far from patient when they were calling for Monty to go 1 game after the close of the jan transfer window!

it's frustrating as fans somehow think a change of manager will automatically bring the success we're not yet getting under Monty. as Neil says in the posts above, there are loads of examples of managers having awful starts or dips in form, only to turn it around. I also follow Norwich (my mum is from there) and have seen how their fans were baying for Wagner to get sacked, that they were in danger of relegation. they stuck with him and are now in a play off spot. sometimes we need to respect the patience our club is showing and continue to support them even when the doubts creep into our own minds.

I don't think its a case of being against him nor is it a case of wanting the team to fail so people can vent themselves.

I can only really speak for myself but my doubts on him stem from the fact I don't want us to miss out on at least top 6 and potentially Europe with a half decent run of results, but games are going to run out thick and fast to be able to do so, that's not an agenda against him. Other than his documented love for 442 I was optimistic about him coming in, even after his first month or two I was happy with the improvement I had seen in players and even posted about what he could potentially do to someone like Melkersen if he had came back.

However, I think its safe to say from early December it has been quite a really turgid period both performance and result wise to the point that our seasons ambitions now hang firmly in the balance of slipping away entirely over the next few games and we're barely midway through February. I don't think that's a good position for any Hibs manager to be in, especially if they've managed 24 of the games getting up to that point. Shaun Maloney has a near identical record for example and we know what that did for him.

Anyone who is dubious ultimately wants the best for Hibs, and if he goes on a run and shuts me up with these new signings and formation and gets us back on track for a last ditch European qualification attempt I'll more than gladly eat my words and get on the back of the Monty train and support him and the club like I do come every kick-off anyway, but until then I don't think it's unfair for those of us not convinced to discuss that on a fans forum.

[The Modfather]

I don't think its a case of being against him nor is it a case of wanting the team to fail so people can vent themselves.

I can only really speak for myself but my doubts on him stem from the fact I don't want us to miss out on at least top 6 and potentially Europe with a half decent run of results, but games are going to run out thick and fast to be able to do so, that's not an agenda against him. Other than his documented love for 442 I was optimistic about him coming in, even after his first month or two I was happy with the improvement I had seen in players and even posted about what he could potentially do to someone like Melkersen if he had came back.

However, I think its safe to say from early December it has been quite a really turgid period both performance and result wise to the point that our seasons ambitions now hang firmly in the balance of slipping away entirely over the next few games and we're barely midway through February. I don't think that's a good position for any Hibs manager to be in, especially if they've managed 24 of the games getting up to that point. Shaun Maloney has a near identical record for example and we know what that did for him.

Anyone who is dubious ultimately wants the best for Hibs, and if he goes on a run and shuts me up with these new signings and formation and gets us back on track for a last ditch European qualification attempt I'll more than gladly eat my words and get on the back of the Monty train and support him and the club like I do come every kick-off anyway, but until then I don't think it's unfair for those of us not convinced to discuss that on a fans forum.

That’s a fair and reasoned post. There’s lots of people still unconvinced by Montgomery, and that’s understandable.

There are 2 or 3 regular posters however that don’t want to add any balance to a debate. They simply want to shout loudest and throw as much mud in the hope of it sticking. They were questioning Montgomery before he was even appointed. Use language like “joker”, “imposter”, “clown” and that they “hate Montgomery”. Criticise him for “shoehorning youngsters” without ever elaborating what that means in reality. Or talking about Montgomery not even deserving a single transfer window. That we’ve been poor in all 25 of Momtgommery’s games except for 45 minutes against Celtc. Deliberately talking up the squad so as to hold it against Montgomery Etc etc. It’s the relentless negativity of those with an agenda that’s draining, not those constructively questioning Montgomery as that’s a fair debate.

[ChilliEater]

That’s a fair and reasoned post. There’s lots of people still unconvinced by Montgomery, and that’s understandable.

There are 2 or 3 regular posters however that don’t want to add any balance to a debate. They simply want to shout loudest and throw as much mud in the hope of it sticking. They were questioning Montgomery before he was even appointed. Use language like “joker”, “imposter”, “clown” and that they “hate Montgomery”. Criticise him for “shoehorning youngsters” without ever elaborating what that means in reality. Or talking about Montgomery not even deserving a single transfer window. That we’ve been poor in all 25 of Momtgommery’s games except for 45 minutes against Celtc. Deliberately talking up the squad so as to hold it against Montgomery Etc etc. It’s the relentless negativity of those with an agenda that’s draining, not those constructively questioning Montgomery as that’s a fair debate.

:top marks

[Iain G]

That’s a fair and reasoned post. There’s lots of people still unconvinced by Montgomery, and that’s understandable.

There are 2 or 3 regular posters however that don’t want to add any balance to a debate. They simply want to shout loudest and throw as much mud in the hope of it sticking. They were questioning Montgomery before he was even appointed. Use language like “joker”, “imposter”, “clown” and that they “hate Montgomery”. Criticise him for “shoehorning youngsters” without ever elaborating what that means in reality. Or talking about Montgomery not even deserving a single transfer window. That we’ve been poor in all 25 of Momtgommery’s games except for 45 minutes against Celtc. Deliberately talking up the squad so as to hold it against Montgomery Etc etc. It’s the relentless negativity of those with an agenda that’s draining, not those constructively questioning Montgomery as that’s a fair debate.

Absolutely 100% on the nose, thank you for posting.

[McGruber]

https://youtu.be/R9bBcfRd2ws?t=984

Not sure if the link will work but for anyone that has had an opinion on Robinson/Lennon is a decent listen in the most part. From about 16:25 in for 3 or 4 minutes it is like a Hibs.Net collective from Robinson, almost like he is on about Monty and pitching to the Hibs board!

Edit - link worked and at 16 mins in - go me :greengrin

[matty_f]

That’s a fair and reasoned post. There’s lots of people still unconvinced by Montgomery, and that’s understandable.

There are 2 or 3 regular posters however that don’t want to add any balance to a debate. They simply want to shout loudest and throw as much mud in the hope of it sticking. They were questioning Montgomery before he was even appointed. Use language like “joker”, “imposter”, “clown” and that they “hate Montgomery”. Criticise him for “shoehorning youngsters” without ever elaborating what that means in reality. Or talking about Montgomery not even deserving a single transfer window. That we’ve been poor in all 25 of Momtgommery’s games except for 45 minutes against Celtc. Deliberately talking up the squad so as to hold it against Montgomery Etc etc. It’s the relentless negativity of those with an agenda that’s draining, not those constructively questioning Montgomery as that’s a fair debate.

Excellent post. There's a line of thinking that the folk who are relentlessly defensive of the club are just as bad as those that are relentlessly negative but it's a false equivalence. We are all (mostly) here as Hibs fans and so naturally predisposed to be defensive/supportive of the team. The posts which do that do little to detract from most people's enjoyment of the site, IMHO.

Constantly twisting things in the most negative light in order to continually or even pre-emptively stick the boot in to the manager is just draining. Folk will argue that and some folk won't recognise they're doing it, but it's not a coincidence that more and more people are starting to see it and call it out.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

https://youtu.be/R9bBcfRd2ws?t=984

Not sure if the link will work but for anyone that has had an opinion on Robinson/Lennon is a decent listen in the most part. From about 16:25 in for 3 or 4 minutes it is like a Hibs.Net collective from Robinson, almost like he is on about Monty and pitching to the Hibs board!

Edit - link worked and at 16 mins in - go me :greengrin

The guy talks so much sense.

[Donegal Hibby]

Where I'm at with Monty is I'd like to see him succeed though I don't think he's done himself any favours in being so stubborn in not changing his system when it wasn't working especially with two in midfield that I felt was clearly getting dominated/our run most weeks . I found it worrying too that he thought we could play the same way against Livvy or St Johnstone as Celtic or sevco too . For the most of it the style of football has been dull to watch with alot of games the other teams creating more chances and having more shots .

His record isn't that far off Maloneys who I think Ron Gordon at the time said one of the reasons for dismissing him was there was no signs of improvement made in the four months he was manager ! . Question is have we improved any since Monty's appointment?.

Last year under LJ it was probably worse in frequent calls for the managers head from fairly early on which was quite draining at times with the fear of some of the names put forward to replace him like Martindale, McKay etc etc . It's much the same to a lesser degree with folk wanting Monty out and replaced with Keane , Lennon etc etc .

I suppose with Monty changing the system finally and the new players who all look good and are hopefully up to speed now I'm hoping to see us continue to improve like we have in recent games against Celtic and Inverness . Top 6 is a must imo though and I still think we can get that 🤞

I do think one of the most important things our club needs is some stability in having a settled squad and sticking with a manager for a few seasons and maybe all of us fans singing from the one sheet for a change if possible 😉

[Steve20]

It was far too soon to be talking about him leaving when people wanted it last week. If we were in relegation bother, I could see the point but we're really not. So give him a bit more time.

Just as it's too soon to be talking about a turnaround after a win against a Championship side. The Celtic game was a defeat, so can't be having that game as evidence as turning things round. Standards need to be much higher and home defeats, even to Celtic, should never be a positive.

Next few games are crucial. Aberdeen and Hearts away, with Dundee at home in the middle. 3-4 points isn't good enough. And to be honest, if he loses at Tynecastle, then only a win against Rangers in the cup will save him from a larger section of the support wanting him gone. He needs to win a big game. In fact, as a club we need to start winning more big games. Our record against the Old Firm and Hearts is a disgrace.

I'd personally give him until the end of the season and see if there is any improvement.

[Gloucester Hibs]

It was far too soon to be talking about him leaving when people wanted it last week. If we were in relegation bother, I could see the point but we're really not. So give him a bit more time.

Just as it's too soon to be talking about a turnaround after a win against a Championship side. The Celtic game was a defeat, so can't be having that game as evidence as turning things round. Standards need to be much higher and home defeats, even to Celtic, should never be a positive.

Next few games are crucial. Aberdeen and Hearts away, with Dundee at home in the middle. 3-4 points isn't good enough. And to be honest, if he loses at Tynecastle, then only a win against Rangers in the cup will save him from a larger section of the support wanting him gone. He needs to win a big game. In fact, as a club we need to start winning more big games. Our record against the Old Firm and Hearts is a disgrace.

I'd personally give him until the end of the season and see if there is any improvement.

Think that's fair, we've had some real duffers as managers and they've all at least managed that (with the exception of Maloney I think?) We could also do with winning some of the more run-of-the-mill league games comfortably.

[matty_f]

It was far too soon to be talking about him leaving when people wanted it last week. If we were in relegation bother, I could see the point but we're really not. So give him a bit more time.

Just as it's too soon to be talking about a turnaround after a win against a Championship side. The Celtic game was a defeat, so can't be having that game as evidence as turning things round. Standards need to be much higher and home defeats, even to Celtic, should never be a positive.

Next few games are crucial. Aberdeen and Hearts away, with Dundee at home in the middle. 3-4 points isn't good enough. And to be honest, if he loses at Tynecastle, then only a win against Rangers in the cup will save him from a larger section of the support wanting him gone. He needs to win a big game. In fact, as a club we need to start winning more big games. Our record against the Old Firm and Hearts is a disgrace.

I'd personally give him until the end of the season and see if there is any improvement.


I agree with you that the ICT game in itself is too soon to be judging that things are improving, but I couldn't disagree more about not being able to take the performance against Celtic as more evidence that things are improving.

Results don't always reflect performances, but ultimately it's the performances that drive results. It doesn't matter that it was against Celtic, the performance was night and day from the week before against St Mirren, you would have to be completely belligerent to not acknowledge not only the improvement but the standard of performance was encouraging.

Life's not black and white, sometimes you lose when you play well but you can't just pretend you've not played well because the result never went your way, that's actually an absurd way to view anything.

Your last paragraph is spot on. We can't go through the next run of games unbeaten and only pick up draws, that isn't enough for us. The stage of the season we're at, with the teams around us at risk of either overtaking or pulling away from us, means that wins are essential.

We've almost run out of time to sort it out, by the time we've played Ross County twice next month, we need to be in the top six and looking up.

[Brightside]

The guy talks so much sense.

St Mirren fans wanted Robinson sacked not that long ago. Its the same merry go round no matter the club.

I'd also point out that we don't just play out from the back, we don't just keep the ball for no reason. We do most of what he's actually saying. We do certainly have better footballers at the back of the pitch than they do so you'd expect more possession and more build up.

[Hibeesdaft16]

St Mirren fans wanted Robinson sacked not that long ago. Its the same merry go round no matter the club.

I'd also point out that we don't just play out from the back, we don't just keep the ball for no reason. We do most of what he's actually saying. We do certainly have better footballers at the back of the pitch than they do so you'd expect more possession and more build up.

:confused: aye so they did.

[B.H.F.C]

It was far too soon to be talking about him leaving when people wanted it last week. If we were in relegation bother, I could see the point but we're really not. So give him a bit more time.

Just as it's too soon to be talking about a turnaround after a win against a Championship side. The Celtic game was a defeat, so can't be having that game as evidence as turning things round. Standards need to be much higher and home defeats, even to Celtic, should never be a positive.

Next few games are crucial. Aberdeen and Hearts away, with Dundee at home in the middle. 3-4 points isn't good enough. And to be honest, if he loses at Tynecastle, then only a win against Rangers in the cup will save him from a larger section of the support wanting him gone. He needs to win a big game. In fact, as a club we need to start winning more big games. Our record against the Old Firm and Hearts is a disgrace.

I'd personally give him until the end of the season and see if there is any improvement.

I agree the Celtic game shouldn’t be used as proof that things have turned. What it did do, is give some hope that things will turn though. You can’t just ignore the positives because of the result. We saw a system that was more coherent, positive performances from the new and returning players and fight that was sadly lacking a few days before.

The challenge is to keep that going. They did that on Saturday, albeit the opposition was crap. Must get some kind of result on Saturday and follow up with a win at home to Dundee before the derby.

[B.H.F.C]

:confused: aye so they did.

Robinson had a terrible start at St Mirren and they didn’t take to him at all.

Came in with 12 games to go and picked up 11 points. Then proceeded to get knocked out of the League Cup to lower league opposition at the group stage at the start of the next season along with losing their first couple of league games.

They weren’t having him at all but he turned it round and has them punching their weight or above now.

[Brightside]

:confused: aye so they did.

Do you not keep up to date with football? Go back to Nov/Dec. He was under pressure. Go back to July when they were getting beaten by lower league clubs.

I actually wanted Robinson when we got rid of LJ. But the idea that it would be better than now is just guess work.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Do you not keep up to date with football? Go back to Nov/Dec. He was under pressure. Go back to July when they were getting beaten by lower league clubs.

I actually wanted Robinson when we got rid of LJ. But the idea that it would be better than now is just guess work.

He's been under absolutely no pressure since the start of his reign. No St Mirren fans wanted him out whatsoever. You have just completely made that up to suit your agenda.

His St Mirren team, on a much less budget are 9 points ahead of us. All managers are guesswork for certain clubs, there's every indication his is a better manager than our current and previous manager though.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Robinson had a terrible start at St Mirren and they didn’t take to him at all.

Came in with 12 games to go and picked up 11 points. Then proceeded to get knocked out of the League Cup to lower league opposition at the group stage at the start of the next season along with losing their first couple of league games.

They weren’t having him at all but he turned it round and has them punching their weight or above now.

So what was around 2 years back then, not really "not that long ago". He's done a tremendous job at St Mirren.

[Since452]

I'd love to see Robinson at Hibs. Was my choice after LJ. He's doing at St Mirren what he did with Motherwell. Think he's a cracking manager and knows how to get results in our league. St Mirren schooled us the other week. He's a guy i can take to as well which shouldn't matter just personal choice for me. Find Montgomery as dull as dishwater which is reflected in our performances.

We've got Montgomery though so just got to hope he can turn it around. I don't think he's going anytime soon.

[B.H.F.C]

So what was around 2 years back then, not really "not that long ago". He's done a tremendous job at St Mirren.

You’re saying he’s never been under pressure since he went in there. That’s not true. He had a terrible start and they wanted him out. He’s since turned it round and has them doing well.

[Winston Ingram]

More hyperbolic nonsense.

You clearly don't like what he is doing - totally fair opinion, with plenty evidence to support it. Recent results have been poor under the game style he is implementing. After a promising start, performances, hopefully now changing after the last 2, have been poor under his guidance. But even the biggest numpty on the planet - and I've been on here long enough, reading your posts, to know that you're not a numpty - can see that he has a very clear way of playing that he wants the team to follow. A way that he has had success with, albeit only over 2 seasons, with his previous team. Right now there have to be doubts about whether or not he can get it to work here, but to state that everything he's done suggests he has no clue is completely ridiculous. He has stuck with the pass out from the back, possession based game plan, even after poor results/performances - I'd say that shows that he has total belief in his system and is confident that it just needs time to get it working effectively.

He seems to be the opposite of Johnson. When we were good under LJ we were very good, but it seemed that, as soon as we had a poor game, he would make big changes in an effort to hit a winning formula again. That made me think that he had little idea of what had made us good or bad and it was all a bit random. NM seems to want to stick with the same formula regardless and try to get the players to get better at implementing it. I'd say that NM's approach is more likely to produce long term success. The change in approach - whether it was NM replacing LJ or LJ replacing NM - would take a bit of adjusting too from the players as well, irrespective of how good or bad they might be.

I'd like to see him get the rest of the season to see if we can, at least replicate, but preferably improve on, the performance level of the last 2 games - the second halves in particular. Even his biggest supporters have to see red flags, but even his biggest detractors can surely see some potential too.

He did have a clear way of playing with CCM. It was playing out from the back in a 442. I watched a load of their games early on a Saturday morning as I wanted to see Jason Cummings play. It worked there as there was very rarely any pressure on the ball whatsoever, particularly at goal-kicks.

By his 4th game here, he was already worked out. Dundee had pushed everyone up and marked everyone outside our penalty area, which was quite easy to do as we were outnumbered in the middle of midfield and we were either dispossessed in our own half or we just hoofed it.

This carried on for over 20 games. Not just recent results, more than half a season. He changed nothing. Watched 3rd place slip away, 442. Watched our most prolific attackers' numbers plummet. 442. Does any of that suggest he has any idea what he's got a clue what he's doing? Doing the same thing time and time again when it's clearly not working and expecting different results?

I dunno what it is about NM's approach of *****ing half a season that you think will be a more successful approach than Johnsons. LJ has had over 500+ games as a Manager. Done great at Oldham, Barnsley and Bristol City. Not so great at Sunderland, but won them a trophy, and not so great here, but qualified for Europe.

This boy has won a pub league (that you can win by finishing 11 points behind the leaders) and has had 2 impressive halves of football with us, 1 in a defeat, and 1 in a win v a lower league side. This is after the penny has finally dropped that 442 as an attacking formation died more than a decade ago. He had total belief in playing out from the back in a 442. It looks like he's finally abandoned it. It was only 11 days ago we played 442 after reverting to it after a couple of substitutions 2nd half v St Mirren.

So if *****ing more than half a season, and 2 good second-half performances is enough to tell you that he's going to be more successful Johnson, then fine.

I like that he's finally changed as it's given me hope that we might salvage something from this season but after 20+ games of dull, awful, ineffective football, it's going to take an awful lot more than 2 halves of football to convince me he's got a clue what he's doing.

[Hibeesdaft16]

You’re saying he’s never been under pressure since he went in there. That’s not true. He had a terrible start and they wanted him out. He’s since turned it round and has them doing well.


They wanted him out? You sure about that? He went in to replace Goodwin at the end of February and only lost 1 of their bottom 6 games (to us) and had a strong end to the season. They then won three games in August the following season, so you could say their good league form continued. St Mirren fans at no time, never mind recently have called for the head of the guy as he's done a great job and they are improving each year under him. Something I was wish was the same for us.

[WhileTheChief..]

Excellent post. There's a line of thinking that the folk who are relentlessly defensive of the club are just as bad as those that are relentlessly negative but it's a false equivalence. We are all (mostly) here as Hibs fans and so naturally predisposed to be defensive/supportive of the team. The posts which do that do little to detract from most people's enjoyment of the site, IMHO.

Constantly twisting things in the most negative light in order to continually or even pre-emptively stick the boot in to the manager is just draining. Folk will argue that and some folk won't recognise they're doing it, but it's not a coincidence that more and more people are starting to see it and call it out.

I guess it depends where you’re coming from.

Reading the constant positivity that is the polar opposite to what I was seeing at ER after another defeat was just as annoying as anything you might read on here.

[B.H.F.C]

They wanted him out? You sure about that? He went in to replace Goodwin at the end of February and only lost 1 of their bottom 6 games (to us) and had a strong end to the season. They then won three games in August the following season, so you could say their good league form continued. St Mirren fans at no time, never mind recently have called for the head of the guy as he's done a great job and they are improving each year under him. Something I was was the same for us.

He went in when they were on a good run, which got Goodwin the Aberdeen job, and didn’t do well. He took 11 points from the last 12 games of that season. Then he got pumped out the league cup by lower league teams and made a losing start in the league. He turned it round after that, his start wasn’t good though and they weren’t happy.

[matty_f]

I guess it depends where you’re coming from.

Reading the constant positivity that is the polar opposite to what I was seeing at ER after another defeat was just as annoying as anything you might read on here.
There was hardly any constant positivity though

[Donegal Hibby]

I'd love to see Robinson at Hibs. Was my choice after LJ. He's doing at St Mirren what he did with Motherwell. Think he's a cracking manager and knows how to get results in our league. St Mirren schooled us the other week. He's a guy i can take to as well which shouldn't matter just personal choice for me. Find Montgomery as dull as dishwater which is reflected in our performances.

We've got Montgomery though so just got to hope he can turn it around. I don't think he's going anytime soon.

Of all the names mentioned on here Robinson is the one I'd most not want to see get the Hibs job , absolutely detest the guy with a passion. McInnes for horrible football like Robinsons too I might add and Lennon basically because we tried that and it didn't work . As to the other names like Keane , Kenny and Murray etc I think we are far better of sticking with Monty and give him a decent shot at it . We seem to keep changing managers and getting nowhere fast . Hopefully Monty isn't going anywhere soon considering the names getting put forward on here .👍

[Hibeesdaft16]

He went in when they were on a good run, which got Goodwin the Aberdeen job, and didn’t do well. He took 11 points from the last 12 games of that season. Then he got pumped out the league cup by lower league teams and made a losing start in the league. He turned it round after that, his start wasn’t good though and they weren’t happy.

It's always going to be difficult to take over from a successful manager. As I said the signs were there at the end of the season that improvement was there and they continued that onto the next season league wise. Yes they lost to Championship sides in the League Cup but there wasn't supporters calling for his head on the back of it, the same as there were no fans wanting Johnson punted on the back of the same crap league cup campaign. If you think Robinson didn't do well when he went in then look at how badly Monty has done since taking over us then!

My reply was to the poster who claimed St Mirren fans wanted Robinson sacked fairly recently, you are now changing the goalposts to they weren't happy. St Mirren fans weren't calling for the head of Robinson at any point of his reign.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Of all the names mentioned on here Robinson is the one I'd most not want to see get the Hibs job , absolutely detest the guy with a passion. McInnes for horrible football like Robinsons too I might add and Lennon basically because we tried that and it didn't work . As to the other names like Keane , Kenny and Murray etc I think we are far better of sticking with Monty and give him a decent shot at it . We seem to keep changing managers and getting nowhere fast . Hopefully Monty isn't going anywhere soon considering the names getting put forward on here .👍

You seem to not want a lot of managers at the club because you personally don't like them for whatever reasons regardless of if they are a good manager and could improve us.

[Paulie Walnuts]

There was hardly any constant positivity though

By the same token then, there’s hardly any constant negativity. Theres most definitely just as many people who are determined to post things that are pretty deluded in terms of positivity as there is people who post negativity.

Theres numerous posters on here who are constantly trying to be positive. That’s fine, that’s their prerogative. But it’s pretty boring reading things like “I’ll be happy enough if we finish bottom 6 but we’re playing well and there’s no way anyone can claim that’s failure” and “of course we can still catch Hearts, all we need to do is win about 8 games in a row” whilst we’re about 20 points behind them and won 6 games all season.

The forum is a complete waste of time when folk become completely intolerant of others opinions, especially when there’s a pretty clear basis for them, such as the fact we’re bottom 6, with a manager who has a similar record as Maloney and on an atrocious run of form.

I find the idea that people can’t quite fathom why there’s constant negativity quite bizarre when we are we are and we’ve been fairly crap for the majority of the last 4 or 5 years.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

He's been under absolutely no pressure since the start of his reign. No St Mirren fans wanted him out whatsoever. You have just completely made that up to suit your agenda.

His St Mirren team, on a much less budget are 9 points ahead of us. All managers are guesswork for certain clubs, there's every indication his is a better manager than our current and previous manager though.

Taken from the St Mirren fans forum - blackandwhitearmy

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There’s more to choose from in the thread if you want to look at it - https://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?/topic/51746-stephen-robinson/page/22/

[Bakerman]

Of all the names mentioned on here Robinson is the one I'd most not want to see get the Hibs job , absolutely detest the guy with a passion. McInnes for horrible football like Robinsons too I might add and Lennon basically because we tried that and it didn't work . As to the other names like Keane , Kenny and Murray etc I think we are far better of sticking with Monty and give him a decent shot at it . We seem to keep changing managers and getting nowhere fast . Hopefully Monty isn't going anywhere soon considering the names getting put forward on here .��

Completely agree regarding Monty. Let's hope this is a defining period of his tenure, that we stabilise, and look to next season. There will be an overhaul of the club in the summer recess, and big changes are coming. Of the other names you have mentioned, Roy Keane would have had a good go at the Largs Mafia, and would have been the most interesting, and exciting one, no doubt about it. However, Monty is the man in charge, and will have my backing until at least next season, unless there are dramatically horrible results to come this season, but I think we've improved a lot in recent games, and will continue to show we have.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Taken from the St Mirren fans forum - blackandwhitearmy

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There’s more to choose from in the thread if you want to look at it - https://www.blackandwhitearmy.com/forums/index.php?/topic/51746-stephen-robinson/page/22/

So a few of their fans wanted him out due to the start he had with them? Fair enough, apologies. Can you find any from "fairly recently" and not two years ago? Which my original reply was to. Thanks.

[matty_f]

By the same token then, there’s hardly any constant negativity. Theres most definitely just as many people who are determined to post things that are pretty deluded in terms of positivity as there is people who post negativity.

Theres numerous posters on here who are constantly trying to be positive. That’s fine, that’s their prerogative. But it’s pretty boring reading things like “I’ll be happy enough if we finish bottom 6 but we’re playing well and there’s no way anyone can claim that’s failure” and “of course we can still catch Hearts, all we need to do is win about 8 games in a row” whilst we’re about 20 points behind them and won 6 games all season.

The forum is a complete waste of time when folk become completely intolerant of others opinions, especially when there’s a pretty clear basis for them, such as the fact we’re bottom 6, with a manager who has a similar record as Maloney and on an atrocious run of form.

I find the idea that people can’t quite fathom why there’s constant negativity quite bizarre when we are we are and we’ve been fairly crap for the majority of the last 4 or 5 years.


Like I said, some people won't recognise they're doing it.


Modfather's post, that I was responding to and agreeing with, clearly said that the discussion was appropriate - it's not people being negative about where we are and what's happened that's the issue - I'll moan as much as anyone when we're rubbish, it's the twisting of things to keep the negativity going, the refusal to acknowledge when there are positives, the preemptive strikes (for example, you can't give Monty credit for beating ICT, (and I'm paraphrasing before you give it the usual 'nobody said that literal exact phrase')

There's a big difference between the two. Of course it would be bizarre if everyone was happy with how things have been. It would be mental.

But you can be unhappy and positive as well, unhappy and constructive, and unhappy and willing to accept that it's not all terrible and it's not black and white - you can have good moments in bad times etc.

[Brightside]

He's been under absolutely no pressure since the start of his reign. No St Mirren fans wanted him out whatsoever. You have just completely made that up to suit your agenda.

His St Mirren team, on a much less budget are 9 points ahead of us. All managers are guesswork for certain clubs, there's every indication his is a better manager than our current and previous manager though.

oh aye - here comes the Agenda. The bells are ringing again.

[May21/05/216]

For what it's worth if the black knights group get a minority stake then the first thing on there agenda will be to appoint a DOF and a new manager

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

For what it's worth if the black knights group get a minority stake then the first thing on there agenda will be to appoint a DOF and a new manager

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

That would be up to the Gordons going by the assurances that were made to the SFA to get the concession to Article 13 agreed.

[Hibeesdaft16]

oh aye - here comes the Agenda. The bells are ringing again.

You're the one who said St Mirren fans wanted Robinson sacked recently, nobody else. :greengrin

[Hibeesdaft16]

For what it's worth if the black knights group get a minority stake then the first thing on there agenda will be to appoint a DOF and a new manager

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

Wouldn't blame them.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Like I said, some people won't recognise they're doing it.


Modfather's post, that I was responding to and agreeing with, clearly said that the discussion was appropriate - it's not people being negative about where we are and what's happened that's the issue - I'll moan as much as anyone when we're rubbish, it's the twisting of things to keep the negativity going, the refusal to acknowledge when there are positives, the preemptive strikes (for example, you can't give Monty credit for beating ICT, (and I'm paraphrasing before you give it the usual 'nobody said that literal exact phrase')

There's a big difference between the two. Of course it would be bizarre if everyone was happy with how things have been. It would be mental.

But you can be unhappy and positive as well, unhappy and constructive, and unhappy and willing to accept that it's not all terrible and it's not black and white - you can have good moments in bad times etc.

The refusal to acknowledge positives - I said after the Celtic game that it was a huge improvement, so an acknowledgement of a positive. I’ve said numerous times that Emiliano for example will almost certainly be a good signing. I’ve posted numerous times that I think our squad is half decent whilst others are claiming it’s relegation standard. I’ve posted numerous times that I think Martin Boyle is nowhere near as close to being finished as some folk on here are making out. I’ve posted that I’d hate to see us sell Youan as I think he’s the potential to be an excellent player. That’s literally all been posted very recently and there’ll no doubt be numerous other things as well.

The idea that some folk ‘post nothing but negativity’ is nonsense that’s pretty easily disproved but it’s a convenient soundbite for people who want to try and belittle other folks points that they don’t agree with.

As for the ICT point, I stand by that completely. Beating a team battling relegation in the league below us should do absolutely nothing to extend Montgomerys stay should things not improve against the teams at our level as being able to beat lower league teams is only relevant for a couple of games a season.

[Donegal Hibby]

You seem to not want a lot of managers at the club because you personally don't like them for whatever reasons regardless of if they are a good manager and could improve us.

Last year when LJ was toiling as I said Martindale , McKay , Davidson as well as others like scott brown were mentioned as possible candidates as our next manager, are they good ? . The only one I personally dislike is Robinson , both him and McInnes I don't like for there style of football and we have tried the Neil Lennon experiment which failed badly in the end though he also repeatedly comes up like a bad penny like Roy Keane as well . There's no guarantees a manager with a good record would improve us either btw .

[Brightside]

You're the one who said St Mirren fans wanted Robinson sacked recently, nobody else. :greengrin

IN July - during League cup and in November when they won I think 1 in 6? As I said I actually like Robinson and would have had him no problem. So how that becomes an agenda is beyond me. BUT give it a few month of Robinson and the same people will be on here telling us how poor the football is. Its the same old song no matter the manager.

[Brightside]

For what it's worth if the black knights group get a minority stake then the first thing on there agenda will be to appoint a DOF and a new manager

Sent from my SM-A908B using Tapatalk

Based on what? First on the agenda is the £3m fund for infra improvements and the players we will be looking at for in the summer.

[Hibeesdaft16]

IN July - during League cup and in November when they won I think 1 in 6? As I said I actually like Robinson and would have had him no problem. So how that becomes an agenda is beyond me. BUT give it a few month of Robinson and the same people will be on here telling us how poor the football is. Its the same old song no matter the manager.

There was no fans in November or in the league cup this season that wanted him emptied.

I don't think so, Robinson went into Motherwell, improved them, top six, Europe, Cup finals. Went into St Mirren, top six, probable European football this season. Both teams with bottom six budgets kicking above their weight. We appoint managers who fail when trying to achieve that. If we had a manager that beat teams in the league with bigger budgets than us and finished above 4th or 5th I would be absolutely delighted. If Robinson came in and done that he would lauded by our support. The problem Monty hasn't done any of that and we are actually worse than when he came in. We last won a league game over two months back and could be 8th in the league at the end of the evening.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Last year when LJ was toiling as I said Martindale , McKay , Davidson as well as others like scott brown were mentioned as possible candidates as our next manager, are they good ? . The only one I personally dislike is Robinson , both him and McInnes I don't like for there style of football and we have tried the Neil Lennon experiment which failed badly in the end though he also repeatedly comes up like a bad penny like Roy Keane as well . There's no guarantees a manager with a good record would improve us either btw .

Martingdale would do a better job than Johnson, Scott Brown done a better job at Fleetfood than Johnson. Is the style of football any worse than anything we have seen over the past 5 years? We hardly play prime Mowbray football and more recently we play not winning football.

[Hiber-nation]

Martingdale would do a better job than Johnson, Scott Brown done a better job at Fleetfood than Johnson. Is the style of football any worse than anything we have seen over the past 5 years? We hardly play prime Mowbray football and more recently we play not winning football.

Relentless.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm in the immediate success or get rid camp.

6-9 months should be more than enough time to change the club's culture, the tactics, the personnel and the playing style so that we're challenging at the top of the table by playing swashbuckling, cavalier football.

So what if it took one of the greatest managers ever, Alex Ferguson, 4 years to win a cup and 6 years to win the league. He should have been emptied the Christmas after he joined Manchester United. What were they thinking? lol :bitchy: :rolleyes:

[Hibeesdaft16]

Relentless.

Apologies am I not allowed an opinion? :confused:

[WestStandWillie]

We demanded an improvement after the St Mirren embarrassment and I think we more than got that against Celtic and Caley Thistle.

A formation that seems to work, players back from international duty/injury and new players bedded into the squad. Massive opportunity to kick on.

Couldn't care less about how many points other teams are ahead of us. Montgomery gets this right and it sets solid foundations going forward instead of this constant revolving door of managers.

Moriah-Welsh could be the midfielder that we've longed for since the days of John McGinn.

[matty_f]

The refusal to acknowledge positives - I said after the Celtic game that it was a huge improvement, so an acknowledgement of a positive. I’ve said numerous times that Emiliano for example will almost certainly be a good signing. I’ve posted numerous times that I think our squad is half decent whilst others are claiming it’s relegation standard. I’ve posted numerous times that I think Martin Boyle is nowhere near as close to being finished as some folk on here are making out. I’ve posted that I’d hate to see us sell Youan as I think he’s the potential to be an excellent player. That’s literally all been posted very recently and there’ll no doubt be numerous other things as well.

The idea that some folk ‘post nothing but negativity’ is nonsense that’s pretty easily disproved but it’s a convenient soundbite for people who want to try and belittle other folks points that they don’t agree with.

As for the ICT point, I stand by that completely. Beating a team battling relegation in the league below us should do absolutely nothing to extend Montgomerys stay should things not improve against the teams at our level as being able to beat lower league teams is only relevant for a couple of games a season.

You've not disproved anything, you've just disproven that you specifically have acknowledged some positives.

I'd also suggest that most people, when they say 'nothing but' are not being absolutely literal on that phrase as I doubt any of us are forensically checking folks' posts for signs of it.

Most reasonable people would take that phrase as it's intended rather than absolutely literally.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

The video posted on this thread from Robinson is the first time I’ve heard him speak at such length. Quite impressed.

Although I’m more than happy with Monty leading our club for the medium term, he should be high up the list of next managers.

[Paulie Walnuts]

You've not disproved anything, you've just disproven that you specifically have acknowledged some positives.

I'd also suggest that most people, when they say 'nothing but' are not being absolutely literal on that phrase as I doubt any of us are forensically checking folks' posts for signs of it.

Most reasonable people would take that phrase as it's intended rather than absolutely literally.

So I’ve not disproven anything apart from the thing that you’ve acknowledged I’ve just disproven :confused:

My post listed 5 things from the very recent past that I’ve been positive about. So even if it’s not taking absolutely literally as meaning 0 positives, that’s still miles short of ‘constant negativity’ as it’s not like it’s 1 thing that’s been acknowledged, it’s numerous things regarding numerous different players, or a performance, or the squad as a whole.

Being positive about at least 5 different things at a point when we’re bottom 6 and on a horrendous run, playing fairly terrible football hardly smacks of ‘nothing but negativity’. Most reasonable people would realise that.

[matty_f]

So I’ve not disproven anything apart from the thing that you’ve acknowledged I’ve just disproven :confused:

My post listed 5 things from the very recent past that I’ve been positive about. So even if it’s not taking absolutely literally as meaning 0 positives, that’s still miles short of ‘constant negativity’ as it’s not like it’s 1 thing that’s been acknowledged, it’s numerous things regarding numerous different players, or a performance, or the squad as a whole.

Being positive about at least 5 different things at a point when we’re bottom 6 and on a horrendous run hardly smacks of ‘nothing but negativity’.

Did you take Modfather's post personally? Are your posts representative of the group being discussed?

You showed you, personally, acknowledged a couple of positives. You, personally, were not called out.

For what it's worth, though, when I read your posts I generally just see constant negativity with the odd outbreak of a concession that something good had happened. You are one of the posters that makes the forum less enjoyable, imho just as I'm sure I am to others.

And five things from the however many posts you make is not the evidence you think it is.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'm in the immediate success or get rid camp.

6-9 months should be more than enough time to change the club's culture, the tactics, the personnel and the playing style so that we're challenging at the top of the table by playing swashbuckling, cavalier football.

So what if it took one of the greatest managers ever, Alex Ferguson, 4 years to win a cup and 6 years to win the league. He should have been emptied the Christmas after he joined Manchester United. What were they thinking? lol :bitchy: :rolleyes:


Why do people use this as an example? It was 40 years ago and his record prior to being appointed as Man United manager more than entitled him to a bit of time to turn it around.

[Ronniekirk]

So a few of their fans wanted him out due to the start he had with them? Fair enough, apologies. Can you find any from "fairly recently" and not two years ago? Which my original reply was to. Thanks.
I live in Paisley and M surrounded by saints fans
They all dread when a manager gets sacked as they fear Robinson being lured away

[ChilliEater]

This boy has won a pub league (that you can win by finishing 11 points behind the leaders)

"This boy" has won a league that is a lower standard than Scotland, but one that is difficult to win. The Scottish League is "easy" to win if you're Celtic or The Rangers (not so much if you're The Rangers, tbf), but impossible to win if you're one of the other ten. Aussie sport is fond of what they call "equalisation measures", which for the A League takes the shape of a salary cap and no transfer fees between clubs. The winning with an underdog team thing was somewhat overstated - the big Sydney and Melbourne teams are more attractive to players due to being in the big cities and having big crowds, so they have a slight advantage there (and there's always the usual supporters suspicions of favouritism and corruption), but they can't buy up the other teams best players and pay everyone 5 times as much as anyone else. There's usually a couple of teams in disarray (mine - Perth Glory - seem to be particularly good at fulfilling this role :rolleyes:), but at the start of the season there are usually at least 5 or 6, and maybe 10, of the 12 teams who might feel they have a genuine chance of winning it. This means it's much more competitive than Scotland. With teams more evenly matched, squad balance, team spirit and tactics become more of a deciding factor than your transfer budget. Might suggest that he can build a team and could be quite tactically astute.

and has had 2 impressive halves of football with us:

Killie 2-2 - excellent first half, poor second 1 impressive half
St J 2-0 - comfortable home win 2 impressive halves
St Mirren 4-2 - exciting cup tie won against an in form opponent 2 impressive halves
Dundee 0-0 - battered them for 90 minutes but couldn't get the winner 2 impressive halves, but only count 1 due to result
Hearts 2-2 - poor first half, great comeback in the second 1 impressive half
The Rangers 0-4 - poor red flag
Celtc 0-0 - gritty rebound performance after defeat 2 impressive halves
Ross County 2-2 - looking good before late collapse 1 impressive half and a red flag
Aberdeen 0-1 - better team, but lose cup tie 1 impressive half and a red flag
St Mirren 2-2 - some good stuff undone by a dodgy penalty and a stoppage time equaliser 2 impressive halves, but again, we'll only count 1 due to the result
Killie 1-0 - good win against the McInnes Magyars 2 good halves
Dundee 2-1 - well fought away victory with 10 men 2 good halves
Aberdeen 2-0 - kind of the opposite of the cup defeat 1 impressive half
Celtic 1-4 - another sore one red flag
Livi 1-0 - awful game in awful conditions, but got the result surely worth a 1 half rating for the result?
St J 0-1 - awful, definite red flag
Hearts 0-1 - probably marginally better team, but defeat to them always hurts 0
'Well 2-2 - good start, poor middle, relieved to draw 1 impressive half and 1 red flag
Forfar 1-0 - yeah, we won, but grim 0
The Rangers 0-3 - thought we were okay first half, but poor result 0
Killie 2-2 - started well, then looked lost, cracking finish though, and should have won with Doidge's header at the death 1 impressive half and 1 red flag
St Mirren 0-3 - undoubtedly one of the worst performances most of us have seen 2 red flags
Celtic 1-2 - resilient first half, cracking second, undone by 4 dodgy penalty decisions 1 impressive half
ICT 3-1 - controlled the first half, without really threatening. Dismantled them in the second 1 impressive half

Well, it's all opinions, I know, but I've got 22 impressive halves, along with 8 red flags

I like that he's finally changed
Me too. He's a young manager, hopefully on the way up, and the last month or so has been the first real run of poor form in his coaching career, again, hopefully this is a sign that he has the intelligence, confidence and resilience to work his way through it and improve as he goes. In coaching terms he's the equivalent of a really promising 20/21 year old player. Here's hoping his time at Hibs is more McGinn than Melkerson

:flag::flag::flag:

[Paulie Walnuts]

Did you take Modfather's post personally? Are your posts representative of the group being discussed?

You showed you, personally, acknowledged a couple of positives. You, personally, were not called out.

For what it's worth, though, when I read your posts I generally just see constant negativity with the odd outbreak of a concession that something good had happened. You are one of the posters that makes the forum less enjoyable, imho just as I'm sure I am to others.

And five things from the however many posts you make is not the evidence you think it is.

I didn’t reply to Modfathers post, I replied to yours and you’ve just confirmed you think I’m one of the posters your post was aimed at.

Almost constant negativity with the odd positive thrown in pretty much sums up how Hibs have been under Montgomery. It’s almost as if my posts reflect what I’m watching. Fancy that.

[matty_f]

I didn’t reply to Modfathers post, I replied to yours and you’ve just confirmed you think I’m one of the posters your post was aimed at.

Almost constant negativity with the odd positive thrown in pretty much sums up how Hibs have been under Montgomery. It’s almost as if my posts reflect what I’m watching. Fancy that.
It's conversations like this that make it so tedious.

[Kato]

I didn’t reply to Modfathers post, I replied to yours and you’ve just confirmed you think I’m one of the posters your post was aimed at.

Almost constant negativity with the odd positive thrown in pretty much sums up how Hibs have been under Montgomery. It’s almost as if my posts reflect what I’m watching. Fancy that.You win the Internet. Well done.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Why do people use this as an example? It was 40 years ago and his record prior to being appointed as Man United manager more than entitled him to a bit of time to turn it around.

Probably because so many clubs have been making the wrong decisions ever since.

I'd be interested to learn how often a managerial change resulted in a longer term improvement in the club's performances and results compared to how often they've remained static or worsened.

Given that we've had 15 managers in the last 20 years, I'd like us to try a different approach and give the manager a decent period of time to build his team and embed his ideas.

[Hibeesdaft16]

I live in Paisley and M surrounded by saints fans
They all dread when a manager gets sacked as they fear Robinson being lured away

And quite rightly too, he's doing a fantastic job and I would be delighted to have him as our manager. :agree:

[Paulie Walnuts]

It's conversations like this that make it so tedious.

Likewise.

[Brightside]

Lets try and keep the thread on track guys. Personal bickering is really dull and does nothing to attract debate or decent new postings. :aok:

[matty_f]

Lets try and keep the thread on track guys. Personal bickering is really dull and does nothing to attract debate or decent new postings. :aok:

:aok: agreed.

[Donegal Hibby]

Martingdale would do a better job than Johnson, Scott Brown done a better job at Fleetfood than Johnson. Is the style of football any worse than anything we have seen over the past 5 years? We hardly play prime Mowbray football and more recently we play not winning football.

Your doing nothing but guessing there I'm afraid. I thought both brown and LJ failed at Fleetwood which is why both were sacked , don't think either done well though both shouldn't have taken that job as it wasn't a good job to take anyhow. Wither a manager is experienced or has a good record doesn't necessarily mean he will do will at a club, there success depends on a lot of different things . LJ was longer at Bristol city than McInnes with a win rate of 38% while McInnes only had 26%.

Hibs should always strive to play good football imo and the likes of Keane , Robinson, McInnes we certainly won't see it As to not winning football it could be worse in we could have appointed Martindale who you seem to rate highly.

The current manager has had one transfer window which every manager says is the hardest one and not been in the job a year yet . Why don't we give the guy a chance before wetting the bed , hey ?.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Your doing nothing but guessing there I'm afraid. I thought both brown and LJ failed at Fleetwood which is why both were sacked , don't think either done well though both shouldn't have taken that job as it wasn't a good job to take anyhow. Wither a manager is experienced or has a good record doesn't necessarily mean he will do will at a club, there success depends on a lot of different things . LJ was longer at Bristol city than McInnes with a win rate of 38% while McInnes only had 26%.

Hibs should always strive to play good football imo and the likes of Keane , Robinson, McInnes we certainly won't see it As to not winning football it could be worse in we could have appointed Martindale who you seem to rate highly.

The current manager has had one transfer window which every manager says is the hardest one and not been in the job a year yet . Why don't we give the guy a chance before wetting the bed , hey ?.

Though you are too guessing the managers you listed.

You think we played good football under Ross, Maloney, Johnson and now Monty? No, I want a successful football team on the park.

There's nobody wetting the bed, no need for the insults, he has had one window yes but so far he has taken us backwards from when he replaced the last joker because he was failing with the squad of players we had.

Should we have given Butcher more time just for the sake of it? You wanted Maloney sacked when he was sacked after one January window, why didn't you say he should have been given more time? Did you wet the bed then?

I don't want Monty sacked, I truly hope he turns it round but the evidence doesn't suggest he will and we/he are running fast out of time. Bottom six football will be a failure for the football club and he will be a big part of that failure. He has a better, much better squad of players than Maloney had, he's had a lot more time then Maloney had and Maloney was sacked because we finished bottom six. Let's see where we are in the next couple of weeks as we need 6 points out of the next 9 imo if there's to be a slight hope of European football and even that scenario is an absolute disgrace.

[nonshinyfinish]

I'd be interested to learn how often a managerial change resulted in a longer term improvement in the club's performances and results compared to how often they've remained static or worsened.

Those numbers wouldn't tell you anything without access to the alternative timeline where the managerial change didn't happen. Otherwise, if a team changes manager but gets worse, how do you know they wouldn't have been even worse if they'd stuck with the first useless prick?

(I'm still generally in the camp of given a manager a decent shot unless we're in serious trouble.)

[blackpoolhibs]

Martingdale would do a better job than Johnson, Scott Brown done a better job at Fleetfood than Johnson. Is the style of football any worse than anything we have seen over the past 5 years? We hardly play prime Mowbray football and more recently we play not winning football.

I think LJ would do ok at Farmfoods, probably his level now.

[Keith_M]

:singing:

Should he stay or should he go ..

[Hibeesdaft16]

I think LJ would do ok at Farmfoods, probably his level now.

Imagine the ques in the shops when every customer has to listen to his waffle. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Those numbers wouldn't tell you anything without access to the alternative timeline where the managerial change didn't happen. Otherwise, if a team changes manager but gets worse, how do you know they wouldn't have been even worse if they'd stuck with the first useless prick?

(I'm still generally in the camp of given a manager a decent shot unless we're in serious trouble.)

Yeah, it's all a guessing game but for me, logic says it takes time and commitment to build success.

When an individual, in this case a manager, feels insecure, they're likely to try short term fixes to keep them in a job.

If they were guaranteed a period of time for them to implement their plans and build their team, I think the chances of longer term success would increase significantly.

Of course there would be minimum requirements, but as long as they were met, the manager would be backed.

That makes total sense to me, but we live in a world where instant gratification is demanded and everything, including people, are disposable.

[Keepthefaith]

Yeah, it's all a guessing game but for me, logic says it takes time and commitment to build success.

When an individual, in this case a manager, feels insecure, they're likely to try short term fixes to keep them in a job.


If they were guaranteed a period of time for them to implement their plans and build their team, I think the chances of longer term success would increase significantly.

Of course there would be minimum requirements, but as long as they were met, the manager would be backed.

That makes total sense to me, but we live in a world where instant gratification is demanded and everything, including people, are disposable.

Well said 👏👏👏

[matty_f]

Yeah, it's all a guessing game but for me, logic says it takes time and commitment to build success.

When an individual, in this case a manager, feels insecure, they're likely to try short term fixes to keep them in a job.

If they were guaranteed a period of time for them to implement their plans and build their team, I think the chances of longer term success would increase significantly.

Of course there would be minimum requirements, but as long as they were met, the manager would be backed.

That makes total sense to me, but we live in a world where instant gratification is demanded and everything, including people, are disposable.

The trend at Hibs is that the constant churn of managers takes us slowly backwards, with the odd moment of it working out for someone briefly.

We tend to go backwards long enough for it to be catastrophic, then we have a rebuild and do well for a wee bit before sliding back again.

Of course. you could say that it because we only appoint bad managers, but when you look at some of the guys we've had in, who have done well elsewhere either before or after us, there's probably an argument to say that time is just as big a factor than just who it is we've hired being rubbish.

[WhileTheChief..]

I'm in the immediate success or get rid camp.

6-9 months should be more than enough time to change the club's culture, the tactics, the personnel and the playing style so that we're challenging at the top of the table by playing swashbuckling, cavalier football.

So what if it took one of the greatest managers ever, Alex Ferguson, 4 years to win a cup and 6 years to win the league. He should have been emptied the Christmas after he joined Manchester United. What were they thinking? lol :bitchy: :rolleyes:

Or you could look at some examples from the last few years instead of going back decades.

There’s plenty managers have gone into clubs and immediately improved things. We’ve managed to do so ourselves in the past so can probably do so again in the future.

[Winston Ingram]

:flag::flag::flag:

I'll spare everyone my take on each game but you have a completely different standard of impressive than I do. The only one I'd concede as impressive was the 1st half at Killie in his 1st game. I think that was more down to Derek McInnes being surprised by anyone in 2023 using 442 as an attacking formation but he worked it out second half.

Re the performances, we've won some games but they've been meh. One-paced, dull, low energy, very few chances created. Rarely anything to get you off your seat.

The second half last week was impressive. We were actually exciting to watch. Boyle and Youan using their pace and trickery attacking in the final 3rd rather than doing pirouettes 30 yards from their own goal. Our midfield was actually in possession in the opposition half playing quick forward passes rather than getting outnumbered in a 2 in their own half and having to hoof it forward. Newall, Amos, Boyle, Youan, Obita and Miller I thought were brilliant. I couldn't tell you the last time I came away from a Hibs game being that impressed by any of our players. That's what I'd see as impressive.

I'd add some other red flags to your list as well.

Bringing on a 16 year old right back with no first experience with 15 to go in a cup quarter final and playing him at left midfield when we were 2-1 up at home to St Mirren. First thing he does is get caught doing a drag back and we lose the equaliser.
After the Rangers game, digging himself a hole by saying it's 442 and won't be changing.
2-1 up in the final minutes v St Mirren and under a lot of pressure. Instead of bringing on a midfielder to shore things up, he thinks now's the time to give a 16 year old striker his Premiership debut and we concede the equaliser.

[Donegal Hibby]

Though you are too guessing the managers you listed.

You think we played good football under Ross, Maloney, Johnson and now Monty? No, I want a successful football team on the park.

There's nobody wetting the bed, no need for the insults, he has had one window yes but so far he has taken us backwards from when he replaced the last joker because he was failing with the squad of players we had.

Should we have given Butcher more time just for the sake of it? You wanted Maloney sacked when he was sacked after one January window, why didn't you say he should have been given more time? Did you wet the bed then?

I don't want Monty sacked, I truly hope he turns it round but the evidence doesn't suggest he will and we/he are running fast out of time. Bottom six football will be a failure for the football club and he will be a big part of that failure. He has a better, much better squad of players than Maloney had, he's had a lot more time then Maloney had and Maloney was sacked because we finished bottom six. Let's see where we are in the next couple of weeks as we need 6 points out of the next 9 imo if there's to be a slight hope of European football and even that scenario is an absolute disgrace.

No guess work in it , all the names have been mentioned at some point as potential candidates at some point on here for the Hibs job by folk .

At times the football was good under Ross and LJ too considering we were on the decline before that . There's also been moments under Monty were at times we have looked good too though consistency has been our problem. I don't remember any good football under Maloney tbh it was more like watching paint dry on a wall.

We all want to see a successful football team on the park though that's only going to happen if we stick with a manager and give him time , unless you have somebody in mind that can deliver instant success though ? . Please don't mention Keane or Martindale btw 😂.

The bed wetting remark wasnt directly aimed at you btw so apologises if you took it that way 👍. Yes he's had one window and inherited a squad with players in it assembled by the 3 previous managers. Maybe we will have to take a backward step to eventually go forward. Who knows!.

I never wanted butcher as manager tbh because I thought Inverness played horrible football and him being an ex Hun too . I was quite prepared to give Maloney a chance though again the football was horrible , he had never managed before and his pre / post match interviews he looked like a wee boy lost with him repeatedly saying UM and Super. Did I went the bed there , maybe though apparently quite a few Wigan fans are too with a " Maloney must go "thread on there forum now .

Well , we are on the one page then👍 because I don't want Monty sacked either and want to see him get enough time to turn things around . Even though it's probably not a popular opinion but I've decided to stick with him wither we make top 6 now or not and let him have a proper summer window with a proper pre season . That to me is giving him a decent chance imo .

Anyhow I'm away for a lie down as this has been hard work 🥱😂

[WhileTheChief..]

Clement, Warnock and Levein. There’s 3 examples of things instantly improving when a new man takes charge.

Warnock is maybe a stretch as he’s only had 2 games, but it’s the same measure as folk saying NM has turned us around after our last 2 games.

Even Naismith has managed to improve Hearts ffs, and he’s widely regarded as being totally and utterly useless by everyone on here.

[matty_f]

Clement, Warnock and Levein. There’s 3 examples of things instantly improving when a new man takes charge.

Warnock is maybe a stretch as he’s only had 2 games, but it’s the same measure as folk saying NM has turned us around after our last 2 games.

Even Naismith has managed to improve Hearts ffs, and he’s widely regarded as being totally and utterly useless by everyone on here.

You need to see where they are in a few months time, go past the 'bounce' that a team gets as a new manager and the trend is generally that teams do about the same as they were doing, with some exceptions.

Clement isn't a great example, I don't think - Moley that was there before had a couple of bad results but was nowhere near as bad as it was made out, and Clement will have those results as well (just as Rodgers at Celtic has). I might be wrong there, but I think the improvement is exaggerated because Rangers are either amazing or terrible in the media and with their fans. They'll flip if he loses to Celtic at Ibrox. It's the way it is.

Warnock didn't immediately improve Aberdeen, has he not just had a defeat to Rangers and a win over Bonnyrigg Rose? I'm not convinced those results would have been beyond Robson.

Levein has definitely improved St Johnstone, by how much we'll see over time and it may be that he's the exception.

Folk would have pointed to Kettlewell at Motherwell as another example, but they reverted to type after a honeymoon period, as did we after an initial upturn in fortunes with Monty.

[The Modfather]

I'll spare everyone my take on each game but you have a completely different standard of impressive than I do. The only one I'd concede as impressive was the 1st half at Killie in his 1st game. I think that was more down to Derek McInnes being surprised by anyone in 2023 using 442 as an attacking formation but he worked it out second half.

Re the performances, we've won some games but they've been meh. One-paced, dull, low energy, very few chances created. Rarely anything to get you off your seat.

The second half last week was impressive. We were actually exciting to watch. Boyle and Youan using their pace and trickery attacking in the final 3rd rather than doing dragbacks 30 yards from their own goal. Our midfield was actually in possession in the opposition half playing quick forward passes rather than getting outnumbered in a 2 in their own half and having to hoof it forward. Newall, Amos, Boyle, Youan, Obita and Miller I thought were brilliant. I couldn't tell you the last time I came away from a Hibs game being that impressed by any of our players. That's what I'd see as impressive.

I'd add some other red flags to your list as well.

Bringing on a 16 year old right back with no first experience with 15 to go in a cup quarter final and playing him at left midfield when we were 2-1 up at home to St Mirren. First thing he does is get caught doing a drag back and we lose the equaliser.
After the Rangers game, digging himself a hole by saying it's 442 and won't be changing.
2-1 up in the final minutes v St Mirren and under a lot of pressure. Instead of bringing on a midfielder to shore things up, he thinks now's the time to give a 16 year old striker his Premiership debut and we concede the concede the equaliser.


On top of the first 45 minutes in his first game, and the second half against Celtc, what other positives or mitigations/challenges do you also see since he arrived alongside the red flags, of which everyone will agree there have been a fair few.

On your point about the subs in the away game against St Mirren, it’s fair to question not beefing up the midfield. However harder to know how to do that from the following options available at that time Hanlon, Stevenson, Delfierre, Rudi, Landers. Technically Boyle as well, but don’t think he was ever able to actually play despite being on the bench.

[WhileTheChief..]

We’re saying that a defeat to Celtic and a win over ICT points to us improving.

If that’s fair, then it also applies to Warnock’s Aberdeen losing to Rangers and beating Bonnyrigg.

[Winston Ingram]

On top of the first 45 minutes in his first game, and the second half against Celtc, what other positives or mitigations/challenges do you also see since he arrived alongside the red flags, of which everyone will agree there have been a fair few.

On your point about the subs in the away game against St Mirren, it’s fair to question not beefing up the midfield. However harder to know how to do that from the following options available at that time Hanlon, Stevenson, Delfierre, Rudi, Landers. Technically Boyle as well, but don’t think he was ever able to actually play despite being on the bench.

That's not hard. Lewis has done well on many occasions as a DM in the last couple of years, or bring on an extra CB in Paul Hanlon. Move Josh Campbell back into his actual position in central midfield. The other 2 weren't great options but at least they'd played in the 1st team as central midfielders. What I do know is bringing on 16 yr striker for his Premiership debut was the least logical of the lot of them.

[Hibeesdaft16]

You need to see where they are in a few months time, go past the 'bounce' that a team gets as a new manager and the trend is generally that teams do about the same as they were doing, with some exceptions.

Clement isn't a great example, I don't think - Moley that was there before had a couple of bad results but was nowhere near as bad as it was made out, and Clement will have those results as well (just as Rodgers at Celtic has). I might be wrong there, but I think the improvement is exaggerated because Rangers are either amazing or terrible in the media and with their fans. They'll flip if he loses to Celtic at Ibrox. It's the way it is.

Warnock didn't immediately improve Aberdeen, has he not just had a defeat to Rangers and a win over Bonnyrigg Rose? I'm not convinced those results would have been beyond Robson.

Levein has definitely improved St Johnstone, by how much we'll see over time and it may be that he's the exception.

Folk would have pointed to Kettlewell at Motherwell as another example, but they reverted to type after a honeymoon period, as did we after an initial upturn in fortunes with Monty.

We won 1 league game in 8 when Monty came in. I wish we got some kind of honeymoon period. Even Barry Robson managed to get Aberdeen on an incredible winning run, much better than what NM has done for us and emptied us out the league cup, I doubt anyone would want him as manager.

Levein is an interesting one, took over from St Johnstone when many thought they would be relegated bottom of the league. They are now only 2 points behind us. It's fair to say he didn't need the excuses of having a team or squad that actually did look relegation type squad unlike ours that some have tried to claim, nor a transfer window to improve them and get better out of them.

We didn't sack a manager at the start of September to write off a whole season and just shrug shoulders and say bottom six and nae Europe is fine. We sacked Johnson to make a go of this season and improve our fortunes, it's clearly not happened.

[The Modfather]

That's not hard. Lewis has done well on many occasions as a DM in the last couple of years, or bring on an extra CB in Paul Hanlon. Move Josh Campbell back into his actual position in central midfield. The other 2 weren't great options but at least they'd played in the 1st team as central midfielders. What I do know is bringing on 16 yr striker for his Premiership debut was the least logical of the lot of them.

When a 36 year old left back is the best option to shore up your midfield it’s safe to say the options available are limited.

What about the positives and mitigations/challenges he’s faced since he was appointed, alongside the red flags?

[matty_f]

We won 1 league game in 8 when Monty came in. I wish we got some kind of honeymoon period. Even Barry Robson managed to get Aberdeen on an incredible winning run, much better than what NM has done for us and emptied us out the league cup, I doubt anyone would want him as manager.

Levein is an interesting one, took over from St Johnstone when many thought they would be relegated bottom of the league. They are now only 2 points behind us. It's fair to say he didn't need the excuses of having a team or squad that actually did look relegation type squad unlike ours that some have tried to claim, nor a transfer window to improve them and get better out of them.

We didn't sack a manager at the start of September to write off a whole season and just shrug shoulders and say bottom six and nae Europe is fine. We sacked Johnson to make a go of this season and improve our fortunes, it's clearly not happened.

We weren't losing them all, as we were under Johnson, and then we won the next three after your cut off point of 8 games, so there was a lift, and we progressed in the league cup in that time as well.

I don't think Hibs anticipated writing the season off in September, and nor should they have, but they will also have looked at the circumstances that contribute to performance and will review what's 'acceptable' for want of a better word, to reflect that.

I think given the activity in the January window, nobody's written anything off yet.

[Winston Ingram]

When a 36 year old left back is the best option to shore up your midfield it’s safe to say the options available are limited.

What about the positives and mitigations/challenges he’s faced since he was appointed, alongside the red flags?

We're asking him to play 4 minutes. That would be my first choice but all the others were more rational than his choice.

What other challenges has he faced? He had a squad that qualified for Europe. Pretty much every first-choice player has been available for almost the entirety of his tenure. He's had players missing for a game or 2 but that's it.

[The Modfather]

We're asking him to play 4 minutes. That would be my first choice but all the others were more rational than his choice.

What other challenges has he faced? He had a squad that qualified for Europe. Pretty much every first-choice player has been available for almost the entirety of his tenure. He's had players missing for a game or 2 but that's it.

Ok cool. Two good 45 minutes in total and no players unavailable. Best to agree to disagree and leave it there.

[Hibeesdaft16]

We weren't losing them all, as we were under Johnson, and then we won the next three after your cut off point of 8 games, so there was a lift, and we progressed in the league cup in that time as well.

I don't think Hibs anticipated writing the season off in September, and nor should they have, but they will also have looked at the circumstances that contribute to performance and will review what's 'acceptable' for want of a better word, to reflect that.

I think given the activity in the January window, nobody's written anything off yet.

:aok: agree with you, cheers.

[Winston Ingram]

Ok cool. Two good 45 minutes in total and no players unavailable. Best to agree to disagree and leave it there.

Never said he had no players available. I said he had pretty much all of them available for nearly all of the time.

I'm genuinely interested to hear what you think he's done well. I've asked others and they've all come up blank.

Marshall's form improved under him. He brought Jair into the squad. Other that, hee haw.

[Rumble de Thump]

We’re saying that a defeat to Celtic and a win over ICT points to us improving.

If that’s fair, then it also applies to Warnock’s Aberdeen losing to Rangers and beating Bonnyrigg.

The match officials were the reason Celtic 'beat' us.

[Rumble de Thump]

This forum is rammed full of trolling.

[HoboHarry]

This forum is rammed full of trolling.
I genuinely don't know how people can have that much time during the working day.

[B.H.F.C]

Never said he had no players available. I said he had pretty much all of them available for nearly all of the time.

I'm genuinely interested to hear what you think he's done well. I've asked others and they've all come up blank.

Marshall's form improved under him. He brought Jair into the squad. Other that, hee haw.

You think we’ve only played well in 2x 45 minutes in his whole time here, so pretty much anything anyone suggests you’ll just think they’re coming up blank.

Think we can all agree Montgomery has made mistakes and needs sustained improvement to keep his job, but stuff like the above is just ridiculous. As is failure to acknowledge the available squad at times.

[Hibbyradge]

Or you could look at some examples from the last few years instead of going back decades.

There’s plenty managers have gone into clubs and immediately improved things. We’ve managed to do so ourselves in the past so can probably do so again in the future.

Yes, that's what I meant.

There are loads of examples of immediate, short term improvements, usually categorised as "new manager bounces".

There are fewer examples of long term successes.

I'm not going to get into an argument about it. I'd just like to see club boardrooms take a leaf out of Mastermind's book. i.e. "I've started so I'll finish."

[Donegal Hibby]

I genuinely don't know how people can have that much time during the working day.

Football managers out of work ?

[Hibbyradge]

Never said he had no players available. I said he had pretty much all of them available for nearly all of the time.



He said "unavailable".

[Hibbyradge]

I genuinely don't know how people can have that much time during the working day.

Junior civil servants. :greengrin

[Sparrows tongue]

I genuinely don't know how people can have that much time during the working day.

Perhaps they don't have jobs.

Or, are old buggers!

[MagicSwirlingShip]

I genuinely don't know how people can have that much time during the working day.

There’s always time to try and pointscore on the internet

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

We’re saying that a defeat to Celtic and a win over ICT points to us improving.

If that’s fair, then it also applies to Warnock’s Aberdeen losing to Rangers and beating Bonnyrigg.

Compared to the games before those two games and the players that are now available, yes, it’s an improvement in squad players and performance. That’s not that hard to comprehend is it?

Our performances have improved with, largely, a different squad.

[Sparrows tongue]

There’s always time to try and pointscore on the internet

That too!!!:cb

[HoboHarry]

Perhaps they don't have jobs.

Or, are old buggers!
I'm an old bugger but I don't have that much time. I must be doing it wrong :greengrin

[Hibernian Verse]

I genuinely don't know how people can have that much time during the working day.

There’s an easy answer to that

[Bakerman]

This forum is rammed full of trolling.

Maybe folk just have different opinions? I like to read diverse views and counter arguments, and of course those who agree with each other. It would be a boring world if we all agreed with one another. I've been to thousands of matches at Easter Road, and you hear it all. Folk standing up raging for all their worth at our own players for virtually doing nothing wrong. I must admit to enjoying reading different opinions and viewpoints.

[Sparrows tongue]

Maybe folk just have different opinions? I like to read diverse views and counter arguments, and of course those who agree with each other. It would be a boring world if we all agreed with one another. I've been to thousands of matches at Easter Road, and you hear it all. Folk standing up raging for all their worth at our own players for virtually doing nothing wrong. I must admit to enjoying reading different opinions and viewpoints.

Are you sure?

[Bakerman]

Are you sure?

Yes. I'm very certain on that. Over a thousand easy. Don't know exactly how many, never counted, but well over a thousand.

[Hiber-nation]

This forum is rammed full of trolling.

Same old, they troll, get banned, register again with new name, take it as far as they can, banned again within a month, repeat.

[Hibeesdaft16]

Same old, they troll, get banned, register again with new name, take it as far as they can, banned again within a month, repeat.


Good to see you aren't judgemental and have an open mind while welcoming new posters to the messageboard eh. :agree:

[JimBHibees]

Clement, Warnock and Levein. There’s 3 examples of things instantly improving when a new man takes charge.

Warnock is maybe a stretch as he’s only had 2 games, but it’s the same measure as folk saying NM has turned us around after our last 2 games.

Even Naismith has managed to improve Hearts ffs, and he’s widely regarded as being totally and utterly useless by everyone on here.

So Warnock beating Bonnyrigg is an improvement :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Clearly improvement in the last two games only lost to Celtic due to var corruption. New players being assimilated into the squad with most of them looking good. Let's give the guy a chance. Personally like the athleticism and quality of most of the new guys.

[Brightside]

I’ve warned you all. Keep it civil or I’m closing the thread. 😂

[Brightside]

Yes. I'm very certain on that. Over a thousand easy. Don't know exactly how many, never counted, but well over a thousand.

1000? So 10 a year for 100 years. 20 for 50 years. You should get a ****** knighthood for that pain.

[Bakerman]

1000? So 10 a year for 100 years. 20 for 50 years. You should get a ****** knighthood for that pain.

Easily been to over a thousand games at ER. League, Cups, Friendlies, European, Even Scotland matches. Easily over a thousand. Whats so hard to believe about that?

[Hibeesdaft16]

Easily been to over a thousand games at ER. League, Cups, Friendlies, European, Even Scotland matches. Easily over a thousand. Whats so hard to believe about that?


Absolutely nothing mate. Apart from you have under 100 posts. :aok:

[J-C]

Good to see you aren't judgemental and have an open mind while welcoming new posters to the messageboard eh. :agree:

Problem being so many of the new posters are very negative in their posting, hence why questions are asked about who they really support. No harm in being negative after a very poor performance such as against St Mirren buy you have to give Monty and the players credit for a very decent performance against Celtic where the officials played a big part and a continued improvement against ICT. People were quite rightly questioning 442 and the style of play on offer but when you have a weakened squad due to injuries and players away on International duty, it's no wonder we were struggling, the January window has added a bit of quality and players back from injury and internationals, the 1st team and squad is looking a lot stronger with competition for places, plus he's changed the system to suit the players we now have.

[greenlex]

So Warnock beating Bonnyrigg is an improvement :greengrin
He’s on top tonight for sure. :greengrin

[Rumble de Thump]

Maybe folk just have different opinions? I like to read diverse views and counter arguments, and of course those who agree with each other. It would be a boring world if we all agreed with one another. I've been to thousands of matches at Easter Road, and you hear it all. Folk standing up raging for all their worth at our own players for virtually doing nothing wrong. I must admit to enjoying reading different opinions and viewpoints.

Do you enjoy reading the same comments from the same people repeatedly over the course of weeks and months? It doesn't do much for variety.

[greenlex]

He’s on top tonight for sure. :greengrin
Premature post of the year goes to Greenlex. :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[Bakerman]

Do you enjoy reading the same comments from the same people repeatedly over the course of weeks and months? It doesn't do much for variety.

I've not really noticed that happening to be honest. Seems to be a variety of posters and opinions. I've not been that long on here though?

[Hibeesdaft16]

Problem being so many of the new posters are very negative in their posting, hence why questions are asked about who they really support. No harm in being negative after a very poor performance such as against St Mirren buy you have to give Monty and the players credit for a very decent performance against Celtic where the officials played a big part and a continued improvement against ICT. People were quite rightly questioning 442 and the style of play on offer but when you have a weakened squad due to injuries and players away on International duty, it's no wonder we were struggling, the January window has added a bit of quality and players back from injury and internationals, the 1st team and squad is looking a lot stronger with competition for places, plus he's changed the system to suit the players we now have.

I would loved to have joined at a time we hadn't won a league game since December.

It's excuses, all teams have injuries and International players away, St Mirren who pumped us included. Does injuries and players away excuse a poor performance up in Forfar?

Of course he should get credit for the 30 mins against Celtic that we turned into a footballing team for the first time in a couple of months, I've said before it's a confidence issue has much as a defensive problem. Look how well we started against Motherwell, lost a goal scraped a draw.

I agree, the January window has brought in quality, Emo is a baller, Welsh looks a fantastic signing. There's no excuses now, none.

It takes a lot to join Hibs.net as a viewer of the forum, especially in a tough time for the club. People pretending everything is alright, others who backed the transfer window in the summer as a success and Lee Johnson as a manager now blaming everything on that and him because they can back the club in everything they do. It's like a closed shop at times.

[Sparrows tongue]

Absolutely nothing mate. Apart from you have under 100 posts. :aok:


Devils advocate here!

Why can he not have been at over 1000 games at ER (I don’t believe it either, btw) just because he has under 100 posts on a football forum?

That logic is somewhat staggering!

You are not exactly ‘poster of the year’ having amassed 228 posts in the same timescale as your target poster!

[HNA2]

Seems to have moved off topic to general bickering. Thread closed