Urgency (or lack thereof)

[Saint Hibee]

We all have our own opinions about the relative strengths and merits of Ross, Maloney, Johnson, and Montgomery, but the one thing all of their teams seem to have had in common is a complete and utter lack of urgency. I could understand the endless sideways or backward passes and the painfully slow throw-ins and free kicks if we were defending a lead, but we do this even when we're losing and supposedly chasing a goal! I can't imagine that any of the above mentioned managers actually instruct their players to go out and play slow, ponderous football, but that seems to be what happens on the pitch. Is it a problem with this particular bunch of players or is it just a side effect of possession-based football? Either way, it's driving me nuts.

[Cat Stanton]

We all have our own opinions about the relative strengths and merits of Ross, Maloney, Johnson, and Montgomery, but the one thing all of their teams seem to have had in common is a complete and utter lack of urgency. I could understand the endless sideways or backward passes and the painfully slow throw-ins and free kicks if we were defending a lead, but we do this even when we're losing and supposedly chasing a goal! I can't imagine that any of the above mentioned managers actually instruct their players to go out and play slow, ponderous football, but that seems to be what happens on the pitch. Is it a problem with this particular bunch of players or is it just a side effect of possession-based football? Either way, it's driving me nuts.

Yes, have been saying much the same. Although, that said, I thought the first half an hour the other night was much, much better, and Marshall was much quicker getting moves started from the back. But then in the second half it went back to a bit slow and ponderous.

[matty_f]

It’s a good point, we’ve discussed this briefly on the podcast before. It’s like Hibs have one speed and one speed only.

I think we generally look like we finish games as strongly as we start them so from a a fitness perspective there are probably lots of good signs there, but we almost never see a player coming off the park absolutely burst likes they've "left everything on the pitch".

The players' running is all monitored and assessed to the nth degree though, so i guess everyone at the club are happy with what they're seeing (to the point that we all, I'm sure, remember Johnson justifying not taking Kyle Magennis off because his running stats we're still good whence we could all see he was struggling).

It could be that our "normal" is at a pace as high as three players we have can handle and so there's not much room to elevate the pace/urgency and that makes it look like we are one paced, but should actually be a good reflection i on the fitness coaches.

In terms of urgency, I think that comes from a lack of leadership throughout the team, were only have one, maybe two players who ever look like they want to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and be the best player on the park. The whole team looks like it just wants to play safe the majority of the time.

[Pretty Boy]

I think it comes back to the inability of a fair few in the current squad to play the system. For all the chat about formation and so on when we do move the ball quickly then it can be very good, 30 minutes or so a couple of days back is proof of that.

I remember it being one of the first things I noticed when Stubbs replaced Butcher. Everything just seemed quicker, not just with the ball but also out of possession. When a move broke down everyone knew who was covering who, who was to stand where, who was to tuck in etc etc. That just comes from players understanding their role and being able to do it.

Right now we have players who really seem to be toiling with some pretty basic instructions and it slows absolutely everything down. I've seen Montgomery multiple times gesturing for us to move the ball quicker so the chronic slow play isn't always under instruction.

[greenlex]

It’s my biggest gripe at the moment. Possibly my only one.

[Smartie]

We all have our own opinions about the relative strengths and merits of Ross, Maloney, Johnson, and Montgomery, but the one thing all of their teams seem to have had in common is a complete and utter lack of urgency. I could understand the endless sideways or backward passes and the painfully slow throw-ins and free kicks if we were defending a lead, but we do this even when we're losing and supposedly chasing a goal! I can't imagine that any of the above mentioned managers actually instruct their players to go out and play slow, ponderous football, but that seems to be what happens on the pitch. Is it a problem with this particular bunch of players or is it just a side effect of possession-based football? Either way, it's driving me nuts.

I don't think that's a fair criticism of Johnson - if anything, at times his team were a bit too keen to get the ball forward so it bordered on "hoofball".

Not wanting to paint Johnson into anything sort of a saint or success but when his team clicked it resulted in pretty good stuff - direct, fast paced and entertaining. Often it didn't click and it was certainly a tough watch when it didn't.

It's certainly a fair criticism of the worst of Ross, Maloney and Monty though.

Rather than it being much to do with management does it not come down to player intuition? I know you can't really compare your weekly fives or pub league football with professional stuff but don't you intuitively tend to know when to push, chase and show urgency and when to step off it and take your time more without necessarily being told? Obviously there are situations where it might go either way, such as whether holding out for 0-0 in a derby or whether you should be pushing for a winner and you'll maybe go with what your manager wants you to do.

[Tyler Durden]

100% agree on the current team.

Partly why I find all the complaints about formation to be a bit misplaced. If you don't have urgency, aggression, fitness and a desire to fight for every ball.....does it really matter if you're playing 4-4-2 or 4-3-3?

Maloney and Monty are similar in this regard. I don't think you could label the same at Ross (and LJ was just a lottery from week to week).

[Stubbsy90+2]

I don't think that's a fair criticism of Johnson - if anything, at times his team were a bit too keen to get the ball forward so it bordered on "hoofball".

Not wanting to paint Johnson into anything sort of a saint or success but when his team clicked it resulted in pretty good stuff - direct, fast paced and entertaining. Often it didn't click and it was certainly a tough watch when it didn't.

It's certainly a fair criticism of the worst of Ross, Maloney and Monty though.

Rather than it being much to do with management does it not come down to player intuition? I know you can't really compare your weekly fives or pub league football with professional stuff but don't you intuitively tend to know when to push, chase and show urgency and when to step off it and take your time more without necessarily being told? Obviously there are situations where it might go either way, such as whether holding out for 0-0 in a derby or whether you should be pushing for a winner and you'll maybe go with what your manager wants you to do.

Suppose the difference with 5s is that you don’t play to instruction, you pretty much just do what you want so you figure it out yourself. Professional football is so much more structured and there’s very little nowadays that’s left to chance in terms of the way players and teams play.

[overdrive]

I definitely think there is an element of the manager telling the team to play that way. Although we weren’t the most urgent under Johnson we are definitely less urgent under Montgomery and much less urgent under Maloney.

[Smartie]

Suppose the difference with 5s is that you don’t play to instruction, you pretty much just do what you want so you figure it out yourself. Professional football is so much more structured and there’s very little nowadays that’s left to chance in terms of the way players and teams play.

Obviously the differences are vast but at any given time your options are endless and you have a multitude of things you can do, whether you are running to get the ball to take a throw in or whether the ball is in play and you have it at your feet. Managerial instruction will play a role but your own intuition will also come into it - whether you knock it back to the keeper or play the 1% tricky through ball to a striker or whether you want to get the ball back into play as quickly as possible from a throw or take every possible second you can over it to let the clock run down (or anything in between). Joe Newell is a versatile player who looks equally capable of taking balls in tight spaces and being direct as he is at lazily just knocking it back where it came from, irrespective of what situation we're in during a game.

One thing I would say when we've taken players from Celtic (the Henderson brothers, McGeouch, Stokes) - is that immediately after they join, their desire to take the ball on the half turn and go direct at teams with the ball under control in a very short space of time seems to be brilliant - it then sort of slows down after a while and that urgency drops off (and I'm talking about players who played under relatively successful Hibs managers here too who we're not discussing here). I've always wondered what that's all about and how we package that directness and not lose it. It was something I really admired about the Malmo players the night they mauled us at Easter Road, the touch, the ambition and the directness to play through us. It sometimes feels like desire as much as anything.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

For most of the second half against Motherwell, it looked like no one wanted to pass the ball while it was moving. I was hankering after getting the slope put back in as at least gravity would have helped to keep the ball going forwards.

[B.H.F.C]

I definitely think there is an element of the manager telling the team to play that way. Although we weren’t the most urgent under Johnson we are definitely less urgent under Montgomery and much less urgent under Maloney.

There is definitely part of it that is/has been under instruction in terms of centre halves standing on the ball for far too long. I thought there was a change in that on Tuesday, we were definitely getting it out and moving quicker, possibly helped but Rocky not being there and taking about 20 touches at a time. But then as soon as they scored, out of nowhere, we just stopped doing what we’d been doing up to that point altogether.

[Carheenlea]

It’s another where the opening games under a new manager, had urgency and zip to the play that looked exciting and full of promise. Why that seems to erode away and back to similar complaints of previous managers is always a mystery.

It’s not a new phenomenon.

[ancient hibee]

No pace or drive in central midfield. Hasn't been since McGinn left.

[The Modfather]

I don't think that's a fair criticism of Johnson - if anything, at times his team were a bit too keen to get the ball forward so it bordered on "hoofball".

Not wanting to paint Johnson into anything sort of a saint or success but when his team clicked it resulted in pretty good stuff - direct, fast paced and entertaining. Often it didn't click and it was certainly a tough watch when it didn't.

It's certainly a fair criticism of the worst of Ross, Maloney and Monty though.

Rather than it being much to do with management does it not come down to player intuition? I know you can't really compare your weekly fives or pub league football with professional stuff but don't you intuitively tend to know when to push, chase and show urgency and when to step off it and take your time more without necessarily being told? Obviously there are situations where it might go either way, such as whether holding out for 0-0 in a derby or whether you should be pushing for a winner and you'll maybe go with what your manager wants you to do.

I think this is an important element missing since Stubbs signed a proper spine of the team and comes back to threads about us lacking leaders.

I think Newell typifies the issue. It’s not unique to him, and he’s been generally good for a season or two now and is one of our better players. Playing a certain way, a certain discipline and tempo etc might be to instruction. However when does he, or anyone else, ever look at a game, like Saturday for an hour. The instructions might be to keep our shape, for example. However we need players to look at how the game is going, acknowledge they have instructions to follow, but at the same time take the responsibility and leadership to drive forward with the ball when the opportunity presents itself rather than pass up that opportunity to continue following instructions and continue with the team having lost the momentum in the match but hope to reverse the momentum by continuing to do the same things.

Fyvie, McGeough & of course Super John were all capable of changing their tempo based on how the game was unfolding.

[The Modfather]

There is definitely part of it that is/has been under instruction in terms of centre halves standing on the ball for far too long. I thought there was a change in that on Tuesday, we were definitely getting it out and moving quicker, possibly helped but Rocky not being there and taking about 20 touches at a time. But then as soon as they scored, out of nowhere, we just stopped doing what we’d been doing up to that point altogether.

Changing the bad habits of this squad, who wilt at the first sign of adversity, has played a big part in all managers back to Lennon, after the season he finished 4th, getting sacked IMO.

[worcesterhibby]

I honestly think a lot of it is about confidence and bravery. For the first 20 minutes against Motherwell, the team were motivated and forward thinking. We lose a goal and the heads go down. players don't want to be the one who makes "the mistake" so they show less for the ball, and when they do get it, tend to select the easiest pass which is usually backwards.

The lack of showing for the ball and being willing to back yourself to control it and move it on effectively in a tight situation ultimately leads to other players having less passing options when they receive the ball and leads to us giving it away in dangerous situations.

We need a Roy Keane/ Scott Brown like character in the middle of the park who will scare the living bejeesus out of anyone who dares to lack the courage to fight to get the ball forward quickly.

[greenlex]

I honestly think a lot of it is about confidence and bravery. For the first 20 minutes against Motherwell, the team were motivated and forward thinking. We lose a goal and the heads go down. players don't want to be the one who makes "the mistake" so they show less for the ball, and when they do get it, tend to select the easiest pass which is usually backwards.

The lack of showing for the ball and being willing to back yourself to control it and move it on effectively in a tight situation ultimately leads to other players having less passing options when they receive the ball and leads to us giving it away in dangerous situations.

We need a Roy Keane/ Scott Brown like character in the middle of the park who will scare the living bejeesus out of anyone who dares to lack the courage to fight to get the ball forward quickly.
This isn’t a dig at you per se but I keep hearing the heads down after the first goal on Tuesday. I just want say that I don’t think they did. Certainly after they took the lead there was a fairly large chunk where any belief we had started with seemed to drain but like I say IMO that was after we went behind rather than after they equalised. That is all :greengrin

[Stonewall]

I think it’s as much our inability to change pace as much as a lack of pace. When we played Villa they spent a lot of time playing at a slow tempo but when they had worked a bit of space and an opportunity then boy they didn’t half move.

[worcesterhibby]

This isn’t a dig at you per se but I keep hearing the heads down after the first goal on Tuesday. I just want say that I don’t think they did. Certainly after they took the lead there was a fairly large chunk where any belief we had started with seemed to drain but like I say IMO that was after we went behind rather than after they equalised. That is all :greengrin

More than happy to accept that was the case :aok: I just think that generally in a side that is getting close...but ultimately failing to get the results they really need, it just drains the confidence and it takes a strong mentality in the team to stop yourself from taking the easy, but negative option more often than not.

In the end we did get the equaliser so we showed a bit of fight..but despite some good performances and some real desire to make things happen from a few (particularly Jair) there weren't enough players willing (or indeed maybe able) to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and take charge. Against a mediocre Motherwell side, at home.. we should be able to do that.

[greenlex]

I think it’s as much our inability to change pace as much as a lack of pace. When we played Villa they spent a lot of time playing at a slow tempo but when they had worked a bit of space and an opportunity then boy they didn’t half move.
Also relying on players in front of you recognising any space being or about to be made and them finding it. It a bit painting by numbers at the moment that isn’t helping.

[greenlex]

More than happy to accept that was the case :aok: I just think that generally in a side that is getting close...but ultimately failing to get the results they really need, it just drains the confidence and it takes a strong mentality in the team to stop yourself from taking the easy, but negative option more often than not.

In the end we did get the equaliser so we showed a bit of fight..but despite some good performances and some real desire to make things happen from a few (particularly Jair) there weren't enough players willing (or indeed maybe able) to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and take charge. Against a mediocre Motherwell side, at home.. we should be able to do that.
:agree: 100%

[H18S NX]

For most of the second half against Motherwell, it looked like no one wanted to pass the ball while it was moving. I was hankering after getting the slope put back in as at least gravity would have helped to keep the ball going forwards....brilliant.

[Since452]

I thought both Ross and Johnson's teams were capable of the sublime and the rediculous. Johnson's certainly more bipolar than Ross's. Maloney and Montgomery definitely fall in to the lack of urgency category. I feel dirty bracketing Ross in with the others though. Probably underserved considering his record at Hibs.