We fixed one hoodoo .. time to fix another.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Since wall to wall coverage of football on TV, and now social media, became a thing the one question asked of every manager and player joining this club was about it's Scottish cup hoodoo. To a man practically every one of them said it it was one of, if not the, first things mentioned when they walked in the door .... There's no doubt the club was obsessed by it.

Well, that was put to bed in 2016 and it's time for a new obsession and you don't have to look far to find it.

The derby record of this club is every bit as big an embarrassment as it's failure in the Scottish cup was. In fact it's a bigger embarrassment, because to win the cup you always have the Uglies to contend with, to improve the derby record all we have to do is beat one club, with 50% of the games being played in our own stadium.

The one good thing about the derby is no matter what the overall record is the only ones that really matter are the last one and the one to come.

Someone said on another thread it should be a KPI for this club's manager and so it bloody should be. Not just for the manager, but for the players and owners too. It's long past time we fixed this.

[LaMotta]

Since wall to wall coverage of football on TV, and now social media, became a thing the one question asked of every manager and player joining this club was about it's Scottish cup hoodoo. To a man practically every one of them said it it was one of, if not the, first things mentioned when they walked in the door .... There's no doubt the club was obsessed by it.

Well, that was put to bed in 2016 and it's time for a new obsession and you don't have to look far to find it.

The derby record of this club is every bit as big an embarrassment as it's failure in the Scottish cup was. In fact it's a bigger embarrassment, because to win the cup you always have the Uglies to contend with, to improve the derby record all we have to do is beat one club, with 50% of the games being played in our own stadium.

The one good thing about the derby is no matter what the overall record is the only ones that really matter are the last one and the one to come.

Someone said on another thread it should be a KPI for this club's manager and so it bloody should be. Not just for the manager, but for the players and owners too. It's long past time we fixed this.

Absolutely spot on.

[Pagan Hibernia]

First step in this is to win the home ones, and if we absolutely can't win them then don't lose them. Once we've chipped away at their superior easter road record the overall record will start to look better and their superiority complex over us will start to crumble.

The Easter Road derbies are key.

[ekhibee]

It took Hibs 114 years to sort the 1st one don't hold your breath.

[sleeping giant]

The manager was saying pre game that it was just another game.
I don't think for one minute that's what hearts were thinking .

[Pretty Boy]

I said before the game the other day that every manager inherits our collective scars in this fixture. I said pre game I would have taken a draw to avoid the start of the terminal decline of Monty's popularity with some fans. People said that was defeatist but I bet every single person in our support would take a draw now given the mental reaction we have seen since Wednesday night.

Our record in the last decade is far from great in the derby but it's not as bad as some would believe, albeit in that time we contrived to lose 2 semi finals and it's a bit worse after the week just past. The issue is every time we lose a derby it just reopens all the old wounds in a way that just isn't the case for Hearts. Of course they have a different pressure, they are so expectant of beating us that even a draw is a huge black mark against their manager.

It will be impossible to work on an 'all that matters is this one and the next one' for Hibs. Even if we won 4 or 5 in a row, the first defeat would see the endless litany of failures recalled. We need to start chipping away at their record over a sustained period of time, in an age where the derby is arguably 60/40 in their favour in terms of finances and that's before you add in their, sadly justified, arrogance going into the games that is easier said than done.

As said above I think our first task is to focus on taking points in the home games. All the faux bravado in the world from fans won't achieve that though, before every derby it's the same nonsensical 'we'll pump them' chat which has no merit for anyone who isn't collecting or close to collecting their pension. It's down to the football team to turn things around and give the fans a reason to have a bit arrogance again.

[matty_f]

It absolutely should be a priority, I’m not sure how you go about it other than significantly improving the team above the level of theirs.

We didn’t lose on Wednesday as a result of mentality etc, we missed good chances, I thought we were the better team without being good ourselves - particularly in the second half.

Shankland missed chances, so it’s not like they’ve got a mythical power to score that one chance they get.

We did to them what they do to us in the first derby of the season when they threw away a two goal lead in under 90 seconds.

I don’t think they want it more, the fans don’t win games - they’re unlucky to have been born into Hearts households rather than Hibs ones, but lucky enough that they’re our bogey team.

But the fans’ bravado in the fixture doesn’t affect the players and the manager, or we’d never win them.

We need a better team, if we do that, we’ll beat them more often than not. They’ve got a better team than us at the minute, as they should given how much money is being pumped into them.

Sort the team out and we’ll beat them.

[Paul1642]

In my whole life of supporting Hibs I think we have only ever had one real period of being on top when it comes to Derby’s. It doesn’t matter if we have the better team at the time, they have the better team at the time or somewhere close to even. It also doesn’t even seem to matter how well each team performs on the day or what form the teams are on going into it.

They just seem to go hearts way more often than not. I genuinely can’t begin to explain why this is the case.

Even during the tony Mowbery era which is IMO our best team of the 21st century, we still couldn’t assert any dominance (in part due to woeful goalkeeping).

They only good run I can remember is the post relegation spell where i think we went around 10 without defeat with a few wins and a certain 2-2 draw :)

The funny thing about that is Hearts were arguably the better team than us for at least the first half of that period.

[flash]

The manager was saying pre game that it was just another game.
I don't think for one minute that's what hearts were thinking .

Do you think for one minute that's what he was really thinking?

[Pagan Hibernia]

In my whole life of supporting Hibs I think we have only ever had one real period of being on top when it comes to Derby’s. It doesn’t matter if we have the better team at the time, they have the better team at the time or somewhere close to even. It also doesn’t even seem to matter how well each team performs on the day or what form the teams are on going into it.

They just seem to go hearts way more often than not. I genuinely can’t begin to explain why this is the case.

Even during the tony Mowbery era which is IMO our best team of the 21st century, we still couldn’t assert any dominance (in part due to woeful goalkeeping).

They only good run I can remember is the post relegation spell where i think we went around 10 without defeat with a few wins and a certain 2-2 draw :)

The funny thing about that is Hearts were arguably the better team than us for at least the first half of that period.

I too thought we'd cracked it in that period you've mentioned, under stubbs and lennon. We beat them 5 times in a row at ER, and in that run they barely registered shots on target never mind goals. They were sh***ing themselves coning to our place at that time, until they broke the spell at the end of 2018 with that long range goal from I can't even remember who (olly Lee?) and got away with a 1-0 win. Derbies are won and lost in the head (not all of them, but generally). It doesn't take too many defeats and their bravado will collapse like Levein's erse at Dens Park

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Do you think for one minute that's what he was really thinking?

That's the exact same chat that Alex Miller was giving us when I was a kid in the late 80s/early 90s. McLeish turned it around as he was a winner and yes he had quality at his disposal but they were of the same mindset.

Monty might not have been thinking it but by saying it it sets a tone and a complacency will set in.

[Scotty Leither]

Do you think for one minute that's what he was really thinking?

Sadly, yes. I can’t see any of the current Board drumming into the manager the importance of winning this fixture. Remember we sacked a guy for playing a song (Tax man by the Beatles) on our PA that mildly took the piss out of them for their financial contortions at the time.

Games aren’t won or lost in the Boardroom, but the mindset of the club in regards to playing them has to change, it has to permeate throughout the club, and that comes from the top.

[The Modfather]

If we’re ever to address the record and chip away at it we need to make sure new managers understand the importance of the fixture in the context of the record and not just another local derby. As well as their job being judged, in part, on bringing youngsters through. They should be judged, in part, on leaving with a positive derby record having won more than they have lost.

[Pretty Boy]

Do you think for one minute that's what he was really thinking?

I don't know what he was thinking but I'm not sure it was a smart thing to say publicly. For exactly a reason such as this; it's too easy to cast back up. It still gets brought up about Alex Miller saying similar about 30 years after he said it.

In reality I think it is just another game. Not to us as fans and indeed not the the manager because results like Wednesday can make or break them in the eyes of the paying punters. However the players will do the same training, the same prep work, meet at the same time, eat the same pre match meal etc etc.

It's probably smart for a manager to strike a balance between not heaping additional pressure on his players and not telling fans what they don't want to hear. 'It's obviously a big game with a lot of history behind it and the one that fans look forward to, the players understand that and we'll be looking for 3 points same as we are in every league game' probably fits the bill.

[sleeping giant]

Do you think for one minute that's what he was really thinking?

Tbh Flash , I'm not sure.

[Jones28]

Do you think for one minute that's what he was really thinking?

I think if it’s a derby game you absolutely go out and say we are bursting to beat them.

At the end of the day if you fall flat on your face at least you’ve gone in to the game with the kind of attitude that gets the fans onside.

I don’t ever remember a hearts manager saying that it’s just another game, and tbh I think it’s about time we approached derbies differently as a club, and start treating them with the respect they deserve.

They are, in most seasons, the games that matter to us as fans the most.

Fwiw flash I think you’re right in saying that he wasn’t really thinking that.

[He's here!]

As somebody who first started following Hibs in the 1970s, I find our derby record since the 80s particularly hard to stomach. In my formative years, the boot was very much on the other foot and IIRC we lost only a couple of derbies in something like 15 years.

There was a real sea change when Hearts came back up from years of yo-yoing up and down from the First Division. Guys like Gary Mackay and Dave Bowman were dyed in the wool yams who have spoken about growing up in the late 60s/70s and watching Hibs utterly dominate the fixture. The third time they got relegated Hearts failed to come back up and spent an extra season in the lower league, which was actually the making of them under Alex MacDonald and Sandy Jardine and by the time they came back up in the early 80s they were a stronger side overall than a Hibs team which wasn't even a pale shadow of our derby-dominating 70s side. That set the tone for the fixture and we suffered through two ridiculous runs when we didn't win a derby in 20-plus games each time (it was that period that really embedded the 'natural order' mindset in guys like Levein). Circa 10 years later, Jim Jefferies became Hearts boss and he was another who'd endured much suffering at Hibs' hands (as a player) so was determined to win the fixture at all costs. Here again, Hearts had a stronger side than us but it was primarily a mindset thing before Alex McLeish arrived on the scene, signed guys like Latapy and Sauzee who were a class above what Hearts had to offer, instilled Yogi as captain and inflicted the derby suffering on Jefferies all over again!

Post-McLeish, however, we've only sporadically taken charge of the fixture and we're now very much back at a stage where the overall Hearts derby mindset seems to help them prevail to a lop-sided extent. As somebody else has pointed out, our record since the Gordons took overall charge is an embarrassment. It is, as the OP suggests, something that needs to be taken much more seriously by the club.

[SHODAN]

There is absolutely no appetite at Hibs to take this fixture as seriously as Hearts take it. I've seen no meaningful steps to fixing it in the time I've been a fan and it evidently isn't a priority for the board nor management. We can either adjust our expectations accordingly or make our voices heard in an effort to try and enact fan-led change; pick one.

Personally I'd take three/four derby wins and a tenth placed finish over qualification for Europe and no derby wins, but I'm clearly in the minority and aren't a big enough demographic to sway the club.

[Frazerbob]

The manager was saying pre game that it was just another game.
I don't think for one minute that's what hearts were thinking .

Do you have a link to this comment?

[Logie Green]

When they got promoted to the Premier League in 1983 they won the first match at Tynecastle 3-2 and in the 40 years since they have had their foot on our throats, give or take a few bright moments for us.

At the time of that fixture they had won something like 17 more competitive games in the fixture than us, now it's closer to 60. For me the rot set in during the Miller years. The mindset of "it's just another game" is still something you're more likely to hear from a player or manager associated with us rather than them, whether or not the speaker means it.

For two comparable sized clubs it must be the most lopsided Derby in world football, it's even a factor in the number of trophies won as the main difference of the 16 to 10 in their favour is 8 to 3 Scottish Cups. Their last two Scottish Cup wins have been at our expense (2006 and 2012); if we'd won those cups it would be 6 to 5 in their favour.

For me the ship has long since sailed in terms of bridging the overall gap significantly in terms of Derby wins. Some of our fans make a song and dance if we go a few games undefeated against them whereas they just get on with it and continue to improve their record.

I'd like nothing better than for our record to improve but having attended every competitive Derby during the last 40 years I'd suggest that it's unlikely to.

[JohnM1875]

There is absolutely no appetite at Hibs to take this fixture as seriously as Hearts take it. I've seen no meaningful steps to fixing it in the time I've been a fan and it evidently isn't a priority for the board nor management. We can either adjust our expectations accordingly or make our voices heard in an effort to try and enact fan-led change; pick one.

Personally I'd take three/four derby wins and a tenth placed finish over qualification for Europe and no derby wins. but I'm clearly in the minority and aren't a big enough demographic to sway the club.

That is honestly absolutely mental. Would also mean we've been pish majority of the season against other teams to finish 10th.

[sleeping giant]

Do you have a link to this comment?

He said it during the interview with Sky before the match on the telly.

[Scotty Leither]

When they got promoted to the Premier League in 1983 they won the first match at Tynecastle 3-2 and in the 40 years since they have had their foot on our throats, give or take a few bright moments for us.

At the time of that fixture they had won something like 17 more competitive games in the fixture than us, now it's closer to 60. For me the rot set in during the Miller years. The mindset of "it's just another game" is still something you're more likely to hear from a player or manager associated with us rather than them, whether or not the speaker means it.

For two comparable sized clubs it must be the most lopsided Derby in world football, it's even a factor in the number of trophies won as the main difference of the 16 to 10 in their favour is 8 to 3 Scottish Cups. Their last two Scottish Cup wins have been at our expense (2006 and 2012); if we'd won those cups it would be 6 to 5 in their favour.

For me the ship has long since sailed in terms of bridging the overall gap significantly in terms of Derby wins. Some of our fans make a song and dance if we go a few games undefeated against them whereas they just get on with it and continue to improve their record.

I'd like nothing better than for our record to improve but having attended every competitive Derby during the last 40 years I'd suggest that it's unlikely to.

Miller got a free pass in this fixture as the Board thought he couldn’t do any wrong.

[He's here!]

I don't know what he was thinking but I'm not sure it was a smart thing to say publicly. For exactly a reason such as this; it's too easy to cast back up. It still gets brought up about Alex Miller saying similar about 30 years after he said it.

In reality I think it is just another game. Not to us as fans and indeed not the the manager because results like Wednesday can make or break them in the eyes of the paying punters. However the players will do the same training, the same prep work, meet at the same time, eat the same pre match meal etc etc.

It's probably smart for a manager to strike a balance between not heaping additional pressure on his players and not telling fans what they don't want to hear. 'It's obviously a big game with a lot of history behind it and the one that fans look forward to, the players understand that and we'll be looking for 3 points same as we are in every league game' probably fits the bill.

I can't agree with that. By its very nature the fixture SHOULD put additional pressure on the players - and if they've got any sort of desire about them they should thrive on it. There's a great interview somewhere with Franck Sauzee talking about how Yogi inspired him to perform at his best in the derby by incessantly drumming into the players how important the fixture is. Mixu alludes to something similar here:

https://newsletters.banburyguardian.co.uk/sport/football/hibs/we-had-a-team-full-of-them-hibs-derby-hero-tells-current-side-how-to-beat-hearts-3653929

Sure, we're not blessed with players like that these days, but I can't go along with suggestions that the current bunch are too delicate to have that sort of pressure put on them. As somebody else has mentioned, we're far too polite as a club about the fixture and it's perhaps telling that it's only under managers who had a bit of 'aggro' about them like Turnbull, McLeish and (to a certain extent) Lennon that we've managed to bully Hearts in the derby. More measured managers like Mowbray and Stubbs were capable of getting some good derby performances out of the team but not to the extent that Hearts were running in any way scared of the fixture.

[LaMotta]

When they got promoted to the Premier League in 1983 they won the first match at Tynecastle 3-2 and in the 40 years since they have had their foot on our throats, give or take a few bright moments for us.

At the time of that fixture they had won something like 17 more competitive games in the fixture than us, now it's closer to 60. For me the rot set in during the Miller years. The mindset of "it's just another game" is still something you're more likely to hear from a player or manager associated with us rather than them, whether or not the speaker means it.

For two comparable sized clubs it must be the most lopsided Derby in world football, it's even a factor in the number of trophies won as the main difference of the 16 to 10 in their favour is 8 to 3 Scottish Cups. Their last two Scottish Cup wins have been at our expense (2006 and 2012); if we'd won those cups it would be 6 to 5 in their favour.

For me the ship has long since sailed in terms of bridging the overall gap significantly in terms of Derby wins. Some of our fans make a song and dance if we go a few games undefeated against them whereas they just get on with it and continue to improve their record.

I'd like nothing better than for our record to improve but having attended every competitive Derby during the last 40 years I'd suggest that it's unlikely to.

The decline started in 1981 the moment we allowed John Robertson to walk away from a deal and sign with Hearts. How different things could have been if we'd signed him.

I actually just read the other day that McLeish and him had all but agreed to sign him at the end of his career when we got relegated for a stint in the championship - but Rod Petrie put a stop to it saying the fans wouldn't be happy. Personally would have been happy with him signing at the time.

The closest we came to our own Robbo in derby terms was Jason Cummings. I'd get him signed back up just for derbies.

[Tom Hart RIP]

He said it during the interview with Sky before the match on the telly.

Then Neil Lennon said it wasn't just another game. Awin set you up in a positive frame of mind for the next 5 or 6 games. He then said this derby wasn't a game for playing out from the back.

[DIXIHIBS]

Agree with a lot that has been said on here regarding attitude etc in derby games. What about our luck against hertz? How many late goals do they score? How many times have we been the better team yet somehow they walk away with points. They seem to carry the mindset from one manager to the next the importance of the derby. Realistically both clubs win very few trophies so winning these games become even more important.

[eastterrace]

When they got promoted to the Premier League in 1983 they won the first match at Tynecastle 3-2 and in the 40 years since they have had their foot on our throats, give or take a few bright moments for us.

At the time of that fixture they had won something like 17 more competitive games in the fixture than us, now it's closer to 60. For me the rot set in during the Miller years. The mindset of "it's just another game" is still something you're more likely to hear from a player or manager associated with us rather than them, whether or not the speaker means it.

For two comparable sized clubs it must be the most lopsided Derby in world football, it's even a factor in the number of trophies won as the main difference of the 16 to 10 in their favour is 8 to 3 Scottish Cups. Their last two Scottish Cup wins have been at our expense (2006 and 2012); if we'd won those cups it would be 6 to 5 in their favour.

For me the ship has long since sailed in terms of bridging the overall gap significantly in terms of Derby wins. Some of our fans make a song and dance if we go a few games undefeated against them whereas they just get on with it and continue to improve their record.

I'd like nothing better than for our record to improve but having attended every competitive Derby during the last 40 years I'd suggest that it's unlikely to.
I was at the 3-2 game and we were the better team that day, but that was the day robbo scored the first of many goals against us. I also blame alex miller for contributing a lot of those bad results during his term of management with us.

[LaMotta]

Agree with a lot that has been said on here regarding attitude etc in derby games. What about our luck against hertz? How many late goals do they score? How many times have we been the better team yet somehow they walk away with points. They seem to carry the mindset from one manager to the next the importance of the derby. Realistically both clubs win very few trophies so winning these games become even more important.

A very good point that luck has defo added to our poor record. Griffiths goal that was a foot over the line and Oli Shaw's at Tynie almost as far over the line are the obvious ones - both nil nil draws and we were absolutely robbed in each game. Really just sums up the derby fixture for me.

But there are plenty others around that time of Hearts getting retrospective bans for challenges that should have been reds that weren't given by the ref during games - cost us massively.

[Smartie]

If we were to have a “Hibs room 101” where we could discard all the things we hate most about our club then “just another game” would be the 1st thing that I’d chuck in.

Our derby record isn’t a coincidence. There’s very little I admire about Hearts but their approach to derbies is one thing I do admire. They understand its importance, the effect it can have on the bond between managers, players and fans and approach the games accordingly. We dither, and our club has been riddled with significant figures who have regurgitated the “just another game” line and endured diabolical records as a result.

Right now you can put narrow defeats to a team with a bigger budget down to that budget but there have been too many times when we’ve gone in with a superior team and still come off second best for it to be solely down to that - or for us to accept a poor record because of that.

The challenge of turning around our fortunes in this fixture shouldn’t be insurmountable but I’d suggest that going forward, any combo of “just another game”, 442 and Dylan Levitt will be unlikely to contribute to any improved fortunes in this fixture.

[Pagan Hibernia]

A very good point that luck has defo added to our poor record. Griffiths goal that was a foot over the line and Oli Shaw's at Tynie almost as far over the line are the obvious ones - both nil nil draws and we were absolutely robbed in each game. Really just sums up the derby fixture for me.

But there are plenty others around that time of Hearts getting retrospective bans for challenges that should have been reds that weren't given by the ref during games - cost us massively.

Not to mention Ozturk and the 40 yard shot that he couldn't have repeated if he'd tried it another 5000 times

[ancient hibee]

I’m an optimist-they’ve only one once in the last 4.

[Pretty Boy]

I can't agree with that. By its very nature the fixture SHOULD put additional pressure on the players - and if they've got any sort of desire about them they should thrive on it. There's a great interview somewhere with Franck Sauzee talking about how Yogi inspired him to perform at his best in the derby by incessantly drumming into the players how important the fixture is. Mixu alludes to something similar here:

https://newsletters.banburyguardian.co.uk/sport/football/hibs/we-had-a-team-full-of-them-hibs-derby-hero-tells-current-side-how-to-beat-hearts-3653929

Sure, we're not blessed with players like that these days, but I can't go along with suggestions that the current bunch are too delicate to have that sort of pressure put on them. As somebody else has mentioned, we're far too polite as a club about the fixture and it's perhaps telling that it's only under managers who had a bit of 'aggro' about them like Turnbull, McLeish and (to a certain extent) Lennon that we've managed to bully Hearts in the derby. More measured managers like Mowbray and Stubbs were capable of getting some good derby performances out of the team but not to the extent that Hearts were running in any way scared of the fixture.

In private, definitely. It should be hammered home at all levels.

Publicly I'm not sure declaring it a must win or else is helpful for anyone.

[LaMotta]

Not to mention Ozturk and the 40 yard shot that he couldn't have repeated if he'd tried it another 5000 times

True. Even the 2014 derby at Tynie when we could have relegated them by taking a point - we equalize with a perfectly good goal from Jordon Forster with 10 minutes to go only for it to be ruled offside despite him being YARDS onside. That sums it up for me.

More generally 2013/14 should have been the perfect chance to do them over for a season - they basically played a youth team for the most part. Yet our derby record ended up being four defeats and one win. :rolleyes:

[LoaningCrHibbie]

Hibs best period of dominance was from 1965 to 1978. In that period Hearts only won 3 league games out of 30 ! ... fortunately for Hearts there were only 2 league games per season, can you imagine how many more games Hibs would have won during that period of dominance (if) it had been 4 derbies a season ! ... (I know victories cannot be guaranteed) but,surely there would have been more victories for Hibs than Hearts.

[greenpaper55]

All that is needed is a bit of class in the side like we had when we gubbed them 6-2 , the likes of Sauzee, Latapy, Mixu and Laursen , better players and you win these games for the most part !

[Pagan Hibernia]

Hibs best period of dominance was from 1965 to 1978. In that period Hearts only won 3 league games out of 30 ! ... fortunately for Hearts there were only 2 league games per season, can you imagine how many more games Hibs would have won during that period of dominance (if) it had been 4 derbies a season ! ... (I know victories cannot be guaranteed) but,surely there would have been more victories for Hibs than Hearts.

True. We'd have added another 15 wins at least to our overall record I reckon

[matty_f]

True. Even the 2014 derby at Tynie when we could have relegated them by taking a point - we equalize with a perfectly good goal from Jordon Forster with 10 minutes to go only for it to be ruled offside despite him being YARDS onside. That sums it up for me.

More generally 2013/14 should have been the perfect chance to do them over for a season - they basically played a youth team for the most part. Yet our derby record ended up being four defeats and one win. :rolleyes:

That’s probably the one that annoys me the most. We get hammered for the relegation derby stuff, but there’s no doubt for me that we would have taken something from that game if that goal stood, as it should have.

It was a disgraceful decision.

[GreenCastle]

Our derby record is awful recently and I would say the way we self destruct or even fail to stand up to them at times is the worst part.

It’s all about mindset and focus plus obviously recruitment of players who are mentally tough.

Out signing policy needs to take this into account.

Shankland wasn’t lucky the other day - it was good play from him - crap from our defence and lack of focus in the last minute.

Until we get players who are mentally tough and a start taking the game more seriously we will struggle to progress.

I don’t care about the fireworks and disco lights and all the camera gimmicks before the game - just win the game.

Easter Road and Tynecastle are 2 different derbies due to size of pitch but you have to be up for both of them and have the required skill to win.

Hearts are obsessed with beating us - it seems to work as being a rival to them the extra points can be the difference in league table standings and can make a massive difference to fan support of players and manager.

Fine margins like this week but games like that were there to be won and it’s another classic missed opportunity from Hibs to add to a massive list of screw ups.

2016 was meant to be the reset button but I think many have reverted back to old ways and it must change.

[LaMotta]

That’s probably the one that annoys me the most. We get hammered for the relegation derby stuff, but there’s no doubt for me that we would have taken something from that game if that goal stood, as it should have.

It was a disgraceful decision.

I couldn't get a ticket in away end so ended up in the home end in the old stand ( loads of empty seats btw) right in line with it so knew straight away how bad a decision it was. I had to restrain myself from going absoultely mental:grr: Nearly got lynched earlier in the game when my old boy shouted for a penalty at one point:hilarious Not a good day.

[He's here!]

Our derby record is awful recently and I would say the way we self destruct or even fail to stand up to them at times is the worst part.

It’s all about mindset and focus plus obviously recruitment of players who are mentally tough.

Out signing policy needs to take this into account.

Shankland wasn’t lucky the other day - it was good play from him - crap from our defence and lack of focus in the last minute.

Until we get players who are mentally tough and a start taking the game more seriously we will struggle to progress.

I don’t care about the fireworks and disco lights and all the camera gimmicks before the game - just win the game.

Easter Road and Tynecastle are 2 different derbies due to size of pitch but you have to be up for both of them and have the required skill to win.

Hearts are obsessed with beating us - it seems to work as being a rival to them the extra points can be the difference in league table standings and can make a massive difference to fan support of players and manager.

Fine margins like this week but games like that were there to be won and it’s another classic missed opportunity from Hibs to add to a massive list of screw ups.

2016 was meant to be the reset button but I think many have reverted back to old ways and it must change.

Sure, the pitch is small but it doesn't explain our quite incredibly awful record at Tynecastle. It's bad enough that they've won more derbies at ER than we have but (certainly since the 70s) a look at our record there all but defies belief. I'd be pretty confident the likes of the Arabs, St Mirren or Motherwell have better records than we do.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Sure, the pitch is small but it doesn't explain our quite incredibly awful record at Tynecastle. It's bad enough that they've won more derbies at ER than we have but (certainly since the 70s) a look at our record there all but defies belief. I'd be pretty confident the likes of the Arabs, St Mirren or Motherwell have better records than we do.

9 wins there in 45 years. Its not great.

I still think if we can fix our home record against them then it changes the psychological dynamic of the derby and we can build from there.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I said in another thread that it’s our home record that is especially unacceptable. Away games in a local derby are usually tough, but the fact they have a far better record at Easter Road than we have is infuriating. Both clubs are closely matched in terms of size and resources, meaning the overall derby record should be close, but it isn’t. We have the kind of record you would expect a club like 1860 Munich to have against Bayern; it isn’t good enough.

It must be a mentality issue, as it continues across different eras with different players and different managers. It really needs to change. Hibs players should approach each derby as if it’s the only game of their professional career; Hearts players often seem to. We must become very hard to beat at ER first of all. They must fear coming here, because right now they don’t.

[LoaningCrHibbie]

True. We'd have added another 15 wins at least to our overall record I reckon

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Also between 1/1/69 and 26/8/78 Hearts only won 1 league game in 22. Hearts bang on about 22 in a row but Hibs were only 1 result away from matching that. Conveniently never mentioned

[LoaningCrHibbie]

If we were to have a “Hibs room 101” where we could discard all the things we hate most about our club then “just another game” would be the 1st thing that I’d chuck in.

Our derby record isn’t a coincidence. There’s very little I admire about Hearts but their approach to derbies is one thing I do admire. They understand its importance, the effect it can have on the bond between managers, players and fans and approach the games accordingly. We dither, and our club has been riddled with significant figures who have regurgitated the “just another game” line and endured diabolical records as a result.

Right now you can put narrow defeats to a team with a bigger budget down to that budget but there have been too many times when we’ve gone in with a superior team and still come off second best for it to be solely down to that - or for us to accept a poor record because of that.

The challenge of turning around our fortunes in this fixture shouldn’t be insurmountable but I’d suggest that going forward, any combo of “just another game”, 442 and Dylan Levitt will be unlikely to contribute to any improved fortunes in this fixture.

Well said, for me this "It's just another game" nonsense needs to stop. We need a brand new mindset at the club.They need to instill to every player how important it is to the fans to beat Hearts. Ok, that ethos alone would not obviously guarantee a win, but, it would surely gain us the odd draw or win against the run of play akin to what they have been doing to us for years now.

[Stevie Reid]

Another huge frustration about last week’s defeat is that we were a minute away from Naismith having no wins as their manager in four attempts - there can’t be many, and probably none at all, Hearts managers who haven’t had a win in their first four derby fixtures. That would have put pressure on him from the Hearts support.

The SC defeat in early 2018 was a scunner as well. If we’d gone unbeaten in that one, we would have been ten without defeat. Getting into double figures would have had a psychological affect on them, I think.

But then there have been so many missed opportunities over the years.

[Greenbeard]

Do you think for one minute that's what he was really thinking?
I do, yes. Monty has demonstrated that he pretty much has one way he wants the team to play and that he's sticking to it.

[neil7908]

Sadly, yes. I can’t see any of the current Board drumming into the manager the importance of winning this fixture. Remember we sacked a guy for playing a song (Tax man by the Beatles) on our PA that mildly took the piss out of them for their financial contortions at the time.

Games aren’t won or lost in the Boardroom, but the mindset of the club in regards to playing them has to change, it has to permeate throughout the club, and that comes from the top.

The other point here is that the game was a classic 6 pointer.

So even taking away the fact it was Hearts, we were playing the team 3rd in the league, one we are hoping to catch and ultimately surpass before the season is out. Yes, like any game there is only 3 points available but even if we were playing Aberdeen, Killie etc it would have been a huge game - one that allowed us to significantly close the gap and cement our push for 3rd, or sadly as happened, allow them to pull away.

I'm not going to tear into the manager for the comment but I agree with your wider point that something has to change. We've seen umpteen managers, players, staff and owners come and go, yet we see the same failings time and time again.

We need to completely reappraise how we approach these games. Yes Hearts have had a better side for much of my 30 years supporting Hibs but we have seen far, far too many poor to average Hearts teams get results when they had absolutely no right to do so.

[Carheenlea]

Another huge frustration about last week’s defeat is that we were a minute away from Naismith having no wins as their manager in four attempts - there can’t be many, and probably none at all, Hearts managers who haven’t had a win in their first four derby fixtures. That would have put pressure on him from the Hearts support.


One speculative injury time hoof up the park and a break of the ball and he’s now Pep Guardiola amongst the support.


Then Neil Lennon said it wasn't just another game. A win sets you up in a positive frame of mind for the next 5 or 6 games. He then said this derby wasn't a game for playing out from the back.

And Lennon is 100% correct. It’s not another game simply because the rewards are more than 3 points. A feel good factor amongst the support that spreads through the club and then in the couple of games ahead of the next one the fixture is eagerly anticipated and confidence high that you’ll win again.
The defeat the other night costs Nick Montgomery a little goodwill from the support, which puts a bit a bit of pressure on to return to a good run of form.
Defeats to Rangers or Celtic are quickly forgotten - Hearts ones hit harder.

[JimBHibees]

A very good point that luck has defo added to our poor record. Griffiths goal that was a foot over the line and Oli Shaw's at Tynie almost as far over the line are the obvious ones - both nil nil draws and we were absolutely robbed in each game. Really just sums up the derby fixture for me.

But there are plenty others around that time of Hearts getting retrospective bans for challenges that should have been reds that weren't given by the ref during games - cost us massively.

Agree with all of that. The context of Hearts financial doping years needs to be taken into account as well when talking about derbies.

[Jack]

Aye. All games are important but the derby is importanter 😆

[Pretty Boy]

One speculative injury time hoof up the park and a break of the ball and he’s now Pep Guardiola amongst the support.



And Lennon is 100% correct. It’s not another game simply because the rewards are more than 3 points. A feel good factor amongst the support that spreads through the club and then in the couple of games ahead of the next one the fixture is eagerly anticipated and confidence high that you’ll win again.
The defeat the other night costs Nick Montgomery a little goodwill from the support, which puts a bit a bit of pressure on to return to a good run of form.
Defeats to Rangers or Celtic are quickly forgotten - Hearts ones hit harder.

Could it be argued Lennon went too far the other way though?

2 huge derbies at Tynecastle, one in the cup and a must win in the league, he changed his team and shape to reflect it was a derby and we lost both. Everything is easy with hindsight but Lennon often seemed too much about making it a battle and worrying about Hearts. Sometimes it worked, other times it didn't.

[James Stephen]

A big part of it rooted in the identity of the two clubs - Hearts are, as far as they are concerned, Edinburgh's club. Its who they are and what they aspire to, its their reason for being.

Hibs dont have a clear eyed view of what they are, and what they aspire to be in the same way, and in the absence of a strong sense of identity and purpose, have some vague notions of playing a particular football style.

Unfortunately for Hibs, in the absence of one team being significantly stronger than the other, derbies are won (or not lost) by the tougher, more robust, more defensively strong teams. That has been hearts, and that now manifests itself as a psychological advantage, a belief and a confidence which comes out as resilience and ruthlessness.

Hibs strategy seems to be about having technical young players playing tippy-tappy football with 'progressive' coaches. That is ultimately not a good recipe for derby success.

Add in Hearts significant financial advantage, and there is little prospect of it changing anytime soon.

The Gordons vision for Hibs seems to be about developing and selling players on. Hearts vision is about being the doninant team in Edinburgh, and the 3rd force in the league - that difference in priorities manifests itself in every decision the clubs take, and ultimately is reflected on the park.

[Carheenlea]

Could it be argued Lennon went too far the other way though?

2 huge derbies at Tynecastle, one in the cup and a must win in the league, he changed his team and shape to reflect it was a derby and we lost both. Everything is easy with hindsight but Lennon often seemed too much about making it a battle and worrying about Hearts. Sometimes it worked, other times it didn't.

He understood the importance of derby matches, but didn’t always get them right!

I’d say the games are as much a mental battle than tactical and strategic one. A strong mentality and a determination to win - an intensity to your play rather than radical tactical change.

[Carheenlea]

A big part of it rooted in the identity of the two clubs - Hearts are, as far as they are concerned, Edinburgh's club. Its who they are and what they aspire to, its their reason for being.

Hibs dont have a clear eyed view of what they are, and what they aspire to be in the same way, and in the absence of a strong sense of identity and purpose, have some vague notions of playing a particular football style.



I have to say I don’t really get this at all?

Or how it can be claimed to help Hearts enjoy a few more derby wins than us?

[JimBHibees]

Could it be argued Lennon went too far the other way though?

2 huge derbies at Tynecastle, one in the cup and a must win in the league, he changed his team and shape to reflect it was a derby and we lost both. Everything is easy with hindsight but Lennon often seemed too much about making it a battle and worrying about Hearts. Sometimes it worked, other times it didn't.

Yep he definitely tried to mirror Hearts style at tynecastle just became a battle with little or no skill.

[JimBHibees]

A big part of it rooted in the identity of the two clubs - Hearts are, as far as they are concerned, Edinburgh's club. Its who they are and what they aspire to, its their reason for being.

Hibs dont have a clear eyed view of what they are, and what they aspire to be in the same way, and in the absence of a strong sense of identity and purpose, have some vague notions of playing a particular football style.

Unfortunately for Hibs, in the absence of one team being significantly stronger than the other, derbies are won (or not lost) by the tougher, more robust, more defensively strong teams. That has been hearts, and that now manifests itself as a psychological advantage, a belief and a confidence which comes out as resilience and ruthlessness.

Hibs strategy seems to be about having technical young players playing tippy-tappy football with 'progressive' coaches. That is ultimately not a good recipe for derby success.

Add in Hearts significant financial advantage, and there is little prospect of it changing anytime soon.

The Gordons vision for Hibs seems to be about developing and selling players on. Hearts vision is about being the doninant team in Edinburgh, and the 3rd force in the league - that difference in priorities manifests itself in every decision the clubs take, and ultimately is reflected on the park.

Think Hibs have a very clear identity reflected in our wonderful badge

[James Stephen]

I have to say I don’t really get this at all?

Or how it can be claimed to help Hearts enjoy a few more derby wins than us?

Because they make decisions aimed at fulfilling that ambition. They sign players that are effective, not potential. It makes them a stronger team.

Everything others have identified in this thread about being right about Hearts approach / wrong about Hibs' comes down to leadership from the top, and the overall approach a club takes. Overall, Hearts priortise winning, with notions of style or approach a vague footnote. Hibs dont, they chase vague notions of style, without putting in strong foundations.

So instead of having a good SPL central defender who can head the ball away, Hibs have a young, foreign project defender who is poor in the air. Hearts target him, and Hearts got a nother win as a result. Because instead of prioritising what is required to do well in Scotland, Hibs leadership have prioritised developing a player with potential with an eye to selling him at a profit in the future.

That derby last week was a perfect example of how direction from the top feeds into results on the pitch.

The other factor is that for much of the prewar period, Hearts were significantly bigger and more successful than Hibs, which contributes to their superior record.

[Pagan Hibernia]

A big part of it rooted in the identity of the two clubs - Hearts are, as far as they are concerned, Edinburgh's club. Its who they are and what they aspire to, its their reason for being.

Hibs dont have a clear eyed view of what they are, and what they aspire to be in the same way, and in the absence of a strong sense of identity and purpose, have some vague notions of playing a particular football style.

Unfortunately for Hibs, in the absence of one team being significantly stronger than the other, derbies are won (or not lost) by the tougher, more robust, more defensively strong teams. That has been hearts, and that now manifests itself as a psychological advantage, a belief and a confidence which comes out as resilience and ruthlessness.

Hibs strategy seems to be about having technical young players playing tippy-tappy football with 'progressive' coaches. That is ultimately not a good recipe for derby success.

Add in Hearts significant financial advantage, and there is little prospect of it changing anytime soon.

The Gordons vision for Hibs seems to be about developing and selling players on. Hearts vision is about being the doninant team in Edinburgh, and the 3rd force in the league - that difference in priorities manifests itself in every decision the clubs take, and ultimately is reflected on the park.

Sorry I don't get this either. Hibs are very comfortable with their identity these days (Ireland, Leith, and Edinburgh - in whatever order matters most to the individual hibby), and while it's certainly true that Hearts see themselves as 'The Edinburgh Team', its Hibs' job to put them right on that pompous notion.

[James Stephen]

Think Hibs have a very clear identity reflected in our wonderful badge

Its the 5th or 6th iteration of the clubs badge - that doesnt scream a strong sense of identity. It screams a confused sense of identity.

[JimBHibees]

Its the 5th or 6th iteration of the clubs badge - that doesnt scream a strong sense of identity. It screams a confused sense of identity.

Don't think it does think it is crystal clear what the key influences of what the club is about.

[James Stephen]

Sorry I don't get this either. Hibs are very comfortable with their identity these days (Ireland, Leith, and Edinburgh - in whatever order matters most to the individual hibby), and while it's certainly true that Hearts see themselves as 'The Edinburgh Team', its Hibs' job to put them right on that pompous notion.

Youve named 3 different identities above. So are Hibs trying to the team of Edinburgh and usurp Hearts, or are Hibs the wprking class underdog side of Leith?

When you add in the fact that for many, a particular style is what Hibs are about, you get quite a confused sense of who the club is, and more importantly wnat it is trying to achieve. Hearts dont have any of that.

So while Hibs are trying to implement some vague notion of ' playing the right way' with unsuitable defenders, Hearts focused on winning this match and coming 3rd.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Its the 5th or 6th iteration of the clubs badge - that doesnt scream a strong sense of identity. It screams a confused sense of identity.

Im not sure about ‘confused’, though perhaps that’s inevitable when you have a club whose name literally means Irish playing in the Scottish capital. The club will mean different things to different supporters as a consequence of that diversity.

[James Stephen]

Don't think it does think it is crystal clear what the key influences of what the club is about.

I reckon if you asked 10 Hibs fans what Hibs are about, youd get 3, maybe 4 different answers.

If you asked 10 Hearts fans, youd get a single answer.

But the point is that its not so much which identity that matters, its having a single one and then using that clarity to create strategy, approach that reflects that, everyone gets behind, that informs the decisions that the club makes.

Hearts identity is the top team in Edinburgh, and the 3rd force in Scotland - thats it. So over the years, most (not all) decisions are working towards that goal. On the pitch that has manifested itself as a (generally) strong defensive team, hard to beat, fairly pragmatic in approach.

Hibs chase a 'style' that has over the years resulted in an inconsistent, flaky team that cant be relied upon to dig out results when things dont suit them. When Hibs do have managers that prioritise results, significant sections of the support are restive and create discord (Alex Miller, Jack Ross, Bobby Williamson).

So when i say that identity matters on the pitch, thats what i mean - the team on the pitch is a result of hundreds of off field decisions, that are informed by that identity and approach.

[greenlex]

I reckon if you asked 10 Hibs fans what Hibs are about, youd get 3, maybe 4 different answers.

If you asked 10 Hearts fans, youd get a single answer.

But the point is that its not so much which identity that matters, its having a single one and then using that clarity to create strategy, approach that reflects thay, everyone gets behind, that informs the decisions that the club makes.

Hearts identity is the top team in Edinburgh, and the 3rd force in Scotland - thats it. So over the years, most (not all) decisions are working towards that goal. On the pitch that has manifested itself as a (generally) strong defensive team, hard to beat, fairly pragmatic in approach.

Hibs chase a 'style' that has over the years resulted in an inconsistent, flaky team that cant be relied upon to dig out results when things dont suit them. When Hibs do have managers that prioritise results, significant sections of the support are restive and create discord (Alex Miller, Jack Ross, Bobby Williamson).

So when i say that identity matters on the pitch, thats what i mean - the team on the pitch is a result of hundreds of off field decisions, that are informed by that identity and approach.
Is that you Michael?

[Keith_M]

For once I totally agree with NaeNookie*, our overall record against Hearts is frankly embarrassing.

It was great when we had that spell around 2014-2018 where we were dominant in derby results, but sadly those kind of spells are the exception.

We need a complete mind shift at the club where the derby match is considered a 'must win'. They need to understand the importance of these games to the supporters.



* A Christmas miracle? ;-)

[NAE NOOKIE]

For once I totally agree with NaeNookie*, our overall record against Hearts is frankly embarrassing.

It was great when we had that spell around 2014-2018 where we were dominant in derby results, but sadly those kind of spells are the exception.

We need a complete mind shift at the club where the derby match is considered a 'must win'. They need to understand the importance of these games to the supporters.



* A Christmas miracle? ;-)

Happy new year to you too :greengrin

[DIXIHIBS]

I reckon if you asked 10 Hibs fans what Hibs are about, youd get 3, maybe 4 different answers.

If you asked 10 Hearts fans, youd get a single answer.

But the point is that its not so much which identity that matters, its having a single one and then using that clarity to create strategy, approach that reflects that, everyone gets behind, that informs the decisions that the club makes.

Hearts identity is the top team in Edinburgh, and the 3rd force in Scotland - thats it. So over the years, most (not all) decisions are working towards that goal. On the pitch that has manifested itself as a (generally) strong defensive team, hard to beat, fairly pragmatic in approach.

Hibs chase a 'style' that has over the years resulted in an inconsistent, flaky team that cant be relied upon to dig out results when things dont suit them. When Hibs do have managers that prioritise results, significant sections of the support are restive and create discord (Alex Miller, Jack Ross, Bobby Williamson).

So when i say that identity matters on the pitch, thats what i mean - the team on the pitch is a result of hundreds of off field decisions, that are informed by that identity and approach.

Here is me thinking Hertz identity was morally bankrupt, slightly bigoted with a superiority complex. Ive been wrong a along.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its the 5th or 6th iteration of the clubs badge - that doesnt scream a strong sense of identity. It screams a confused sense of identity.

The redesign of the badge at the start of the century put to bed any confusion about the club's sense of identity. I really don't think that's an issue.

If there was any doubt about the affection Hibs are held in by Edinburgh the turnout for the cup final parade put that to bed as well. For all but a tiny fraction of folk Hibs are simply an Edinburgh club, because that's exactly what we are, and have always been. It was founded in the Cowgate and played it's first games on the Meadows FFS, how much more 'Edinburgh' do you want.

Hearts might see themselves as Edinburgh's club, but the relative difference in support between us and them doesn't bear that out. There's no doubt they are slightly better supported, but nothing like to an extent they can ever claim to be 'Edinburgh's club' no matter how much they might want to be.

With the exposure Hibs have had in films and TV over the last quarter of a century, not to mention the admiration of SOL from fans of other clubs if you asked folk elsewhere in the UK or further afield to name an Edinburgh club, of the ones that could probably two thirds of them would say Hibs before Hearts.

In short. Whatever our derby woes a lack of identity, or confusion over it, isn't the issue. It's a mindset within the club that has been allowed to set in over the years where we have failed to give this game the level of importance it deserves. We have failed to acknowledge within the club just how important doing well in it is to the overall health of the club when it comes to connecting with the folk who support it.

If the whole thing is encapsulated in one incident it's the squabbling over bonuses the night before the biggest derby match in the fixtures entire history. If the club took this fixture seriously the money on offer for winning that game should have been so good the players would have been almost embarrassed to accept it if they had won.

2012 taught this club a lesson that should never have been forgotten. Hearts fans had a banner the other night with '5 - 1 never forget' written on it .... That banner should be on display in the Hibs board room, because rarely in the history of football has a set of fans been so badly let down by their club.

Hibs should see every derby as a small chance to right that wrong. For a while it seemed they were, but we seem to be getting back to same old same old and that needs nipped in the bud big time. It's not about identity, it's about mindset .. and ours is wrong.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The redesign of the badge at the start of the century put to bed any confusion about the club's sense of identity. I really don't think that's an issue.

If there was any doubt about the affection Hibs are held in by Edinburgh the turnout for the cup final parade put that to bed as well. For all but a tiny fraction of folk Hibs are simply an Edinburgh club, because that's exactly what we are, and have always been. It was founded in the Cowgate and played it's first games on the Meadows FFS, how much more 'Edinburgh' do you want.

Hearts might see themselves as Edinburgh's club, but the relative difference in support between us and them doesn't bear that out. There's no doubt they are slightly better supported, but nothing like to an extent they can ever claim to be 'Edinburgh's club' no matter how much they might want to be.

With the exposure Hibs have had in films and TV over the last quarter of a century, not to mention the admiration of SOL from fans of other clubs if you asked folk elsewhere in the UK or further afield to name an Edinburgh club, of the ones that could probably two thirds of them would say Hibs before Hearts.

In short. Whatever our derby woes a lack of identity, or confusion over it, isn't the issue. It's a mindset within the club that has been allowed to set in over the years where we have failed to give this game the level of importance it deserves. We have failed to acknowledge within the club just how important doing well in it is to the overall health of the club when it comes to connecting with the folk who support it.

If the whole thing is encapsulated in one incident it's the squabbling over bonuses the night before the biggest derby match in the fixtures entire history. If the club took this fixture seriously the money on offer for winning that game should have been so good the players would have been almost embarrassed to accept it if they had won.

2012 taught this club a lesson that should never have been forgotten. Hearts fans had a banner the other night with '5 - 1 never forget' written on it .... That banner should be on display in the Hibs board room, because rarely in the history of football has a set of fans been so badly let down by their club.

Hibs should see every derby as a small chance to right that wrong. For a while it seemed they were, but we seem to be getting back to same old same old and that needs nipped in the bud big time. It's not about identity, it's about mindset .. and ours is wrong.

An excellent post:top marks

[DIXIHIBS]

The redesign of the badge at the start of the century put to bed any confusion about the club's sense of identity. I really don't think that's an issue.

If there was any doubt about the affection Hibs are held in by Edinburgh the turnout for the cup final parade put that to bed as well. For all but a tiny fraction of folk Hibs are simply an Edinburgh club, because that's exactly what we are, and have always been. It was founded in the Cowgate and played it's first games on the Meadows FFS, how much more 'Edinburgh' do you want.

Hearts might see themselves as Edinburgh's club, but the relative difference in support between us and them doesn't bear that out. There's no doubt they are slightly better supported, but nothing like to an extent they can ever claim to be 'Edinburgh's club' no matter how much they might want to be.

With the exposure Hibs have had in films and TV over the last quarter of a century, not to mention the admiration of SOL from fans of other clubs if you asked folk elsewhere in the UK or further afield to name an Edinburgh club, of the ones that could probably two thirds of them would say Hibs before Hearts.

In short. Whatever our derby woes a lack of identity, or confusion over it, isn't the issue. It's a mindset within the club that has been allowed to set in over the years where we have failed to give this game the level of importance it deserves. We have failed to acknowledge within the club just how important doing well in it is to the overall health of the club when it comes to connecting with the folk who support it.

If the whole thing is encapsulated in one incident it's the squabbling over bonuses the night before the biggest derby match in the fixtures entire history. If the club took this fixture seriously the money on offer for winning that game should have been so good the players would have been almost embarrassed to accept it if they had won.

2012 taught this club a lesson that should never have been forgotten. Hearts fans had a banner the other night with '5 - 1 never forget' written on it .... That banner should be on display in the Hibs board room, because rarely in the history of football has a set of fans been so badly let down by their club.

Hibs should see every derby as a small chance to right that wrong. For a while it seemed they were, but we seem to be getting back to same old same old and that needs nipped in the bud big time. It's not about identity, it's about mindset .. and ours is wrong.

Spot on.

[Scotty Leither]

The redesign of the badge at the start of the century put to bed any confusion about the club's sense of identity. I really don't think that's an issue.

If there was any doubt about the affection Hibs are held in by Edinburgh the turnout for the cup final parade put that to bed as well. For all but a tiny fraction of folk Hibs are simply an Edinburgh club, because that's exactly what we are, and have always been. It was founded in the Cowgate and played it's first games on the Meadows FFS, how much more 'Edinburgh' do you want.

Hearts might see themselves as Edinburgh's club, but the relative difference in support between us and them doesn't bear that out. There's no doubt they are slightly better supported, but nothing like to an extent they can ever claim to be 'Edinburgh's club' no matter how much they might want to be.

With the exposure Hibs have had in films and TV over the last quarter of a century, not to mention the admiration of SOL from fans of other clubs if you asked folk elsewhere in the UK or further afield to name an Edinburgh club, of the ones that could probably two thirds of them would say Hibs before Hearts.

In short. Whatever our derby woes a lack of identity, or confusion over it, isn't the issue. It's a mindset within the club that has been allowed to set in over the years where we have failed to give this game the level of importance it deserves. We have failed to acknowledge within the club just how important doing well in it is to the overall health of the club when it comes to connecting with the folk who support it.

If the whole thing is encapsulated in one incident it's the squabbling over bonuses the night before the biggest derby match in the fixtures entire history. If the club took this fixture seriously the money on offer for winning that game should have been so good the players would have been almost embarrassed to accept it if they had won.

2012 taught this club a lesson that should never have been forgotten. Hearts fans had a banner the other night with '5 - 1 never forget' written on it .... That banner should be on display in the Hibs board room, because rarely in the history of football has a set of fans been so badly let down by their club.

Hibs should see every derby as a small chance to right that wrong. For a while it seemed they were, but we seem to be getting back to same old same old and that needs nipped in the bud big time. It's not about identity, it's about mindset .. and ours is wrong.

This should be pinned up in the Boardroom.

[greenlex]

I think the fall out from the Derby is over the top. Yes our record is poor but the players fought for everything in a game where you couldn’t get a fag paper between the two of us. We lost due to one mistake and a very good finish from a good striker. I find it really odd that this particular game has garnered the whole mentality between us. Quite bizarre in fact.

[matty_f]

I think the fall out from the Derby is over the top. Yes our record is poor but the players fought for everything in a game where you couldn’t get a fag paper between the two of us. We lost due to one mistake and a very good finish from a good striker. I find it really odd that this particular game has garnered the whole mentality between us. Quite bizarre in fact.

Was saying similar elsewhere. It was a sore one, no doubt, and the nature of the defeat was so like what we’ve seen over the years in derbies that it’s triggered the reaction, but we only have to go back one derby to see a Hearts team who were at home, and favourites for the game, throw a two goal lead in under 90 seconds.

That said, our record is a disgrace and it’s well past time that something was done about it.

The game’s really important and means everything to the fans but I don’t think for a second that everyone at Hibs isn’t aware of what it means, speak to anyone at the club and they’ll tell you.

Maybe we need to approach it like the other teams do.. St Johnstone, St Mirren, Motherwell etc all manage to get results against them fairly frequently (I think, I haven’t checked) they treat the Hearts game as nothing special, a tough game, sure, but there’s no hoodoo stuff in their thoughts.


I actually think we need to hammer home the importance of the fixture but play down the opponent and look at them as a team that is regularly dropping points to the same pish sides in the league that we do.

****ing Brora Rangers beat these ***** and we treat them like prime Real Madrid when going into the fixture. Show them no respect - as they do with us.

We build up the fixture and, while they put everything on the importance of it, we are “only Hibs” when it comes to it to them.

It’s definitely drilled into Hibs players that the game is important. Hearts haven’t got any special approach to the game - they were having beans on toast before it, FFS.

[B.H.F.C]

I think the fall out from the Derby is over the top. Yes our record is poor but the players fought for everything in a game where you couldn’t get a fag paper between the two of us. We lost due to one mistake and a very good finish from a good striker. I find it really odd that this particular game has garnered the whole mentality between us. Quite bizarre in fact.

Because of our record against them the reaction is always to more than that one particular game. Even in 2023 when they were largely pish, they still managed there victories to our one. The consistency of the disappointments against them just means that the next one always feels brutal, especially in the manner of the one the other night.

[ancient hibee]

I think the fall out from the Derby is over the top. Yes our record is poor but the players fought for everything in a game where you couldn’t get a fag paper between the two of us. We lost due to one mistake and a very good finish from a good striker. I find it really odd that this particular game has garnered the whole mentality between us. Quite bizarre in fact.

Last minute goals -for or against-always bring out over the top reactions-I remember one at Hampden a few years ago:greengrin.

[He's here!]

I think the fall out from the Derby is over the top. Yes our record is poor but the players fought for everything in a game where you couldn’t get a fag paper between the two of us. We lost due to one mistake and a very good finish from a good striker. I find it really odd that this particular game has garnered the whole mentality between us. Quite bizarre in fact.

It would be an over the top reaction to one match in isolation. Problem is we've seen that movie too many times and our appalling overall derby record is testament to that. Folk are entitled to question why the f*** we have so often found this fixture so troublesome. I'm pretty sure Hearts have won almost double the number of derbies we have. That's a mind-bogglingly awful and frankly inexcusable stat.

[He's here!]

It would be an over the top reaction to one match in isolation. Problem is we've seen that movie too many times and our appalling overall derby record is testament to that. Folk are entitled to question why the f*** we have so often found this fixture so troublesome. I'm pretty sure Hearts have won almost double the number of derbies we have. That's a mind-bogglingly awful and frankly inexcusable stat.

Just checked and it's 149 Hearts wins v 87 Hibs wins. 101 draws.

[Smartie]

Could it be argued Lennon went too far the other way though?

2 huge derbies at Tynecastle, one in the cup and a must win in the league, he changed his team and shape to reflect it was a derby and we lost both. Everything is easy with hindsight but Lennon often seemed too much about making it a battle and worrying about Hearts. Sometimes it worked, other times it didn't.

A fair point, and that could be argued.

One thing I’d also say is that recent Edinburgh derbies haven’t been so much like “traditional” Edinburgh derbies. They’ve felt a bit more open and there’s been more football played (maybe the one last week was a bit more like before when it settled into the tense pattern of play but I’ve thought it felt a bit different over maybe the past 4 or 5 games).

The games have certainly felt different to when the likes of Lennon and Levein were managers in the fixture.

The outcome did feel annoyingly familiar though.

[Scotty Leither]

When both clubs go through their various managerial appointment processes, I’ll venture that the Derby fixture and the importance of winning it is only impressed upon the potential candidate at one club, and that club won’t be ours.

I’ve never ever heard a Hearts’ manager characterise it as “just another game” either. That’s why Montgomery (and by extension the club) are catching so much heat over this latest defeat to them.

[Keith_M]

Happy new year to you too :greengrin



:greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

Because of our record against them the reaction is always to more than that one particular game. Even in 2023 when they were largely pish, they still managed there victories to our one. The consistency of the disappointments against them just means that the next one always feels brutal, especially in the manner of the one the other night.

Exactly this.

If the reaction you see after losing one of these games was against a backdrop of a nip tuck derby record, even over the last 30 years, then yes it would be ridiculous. But the fact is that our record over that period is appalling. They have 48 wins in all competitions, we have 28

In every semi final or final where we have faced them in that period we have lost. With the total aggregate score being 13 - 3 to them.

This isn't a derby ... it's a sodding footballing Groundhog day ... you can't over react to this, it's a bloody disgrace and it's time this club faced the fact.

[Aldoo]

It absolutely should be a priority, I’m not sure how you go about it other than significantly improving the team above the level of theirs.

We didn’t lose on Wednesday as a result of mentality etc, we missed good chances, I thought we were the better team without being good ourselves - particularly in the second half.

Shankland missed chances, so it’s not like they’ve got a mythical power to score that one chance they get.

We did to them what they do to us in the first derby of the season when they threw away a two goal lead in under 90 seconds.

I don’t think they want it more, the fans don’t win games - they’re unlucky to have been born into Hearts households rather than Hibs ones, but lucky enough that they’re our bogey team.

But the fans’ bravado in the fixture doesn’t affect the players and the manager, or we’d never win them.

We need a better team, if we do that, we’ll beat them more often than not. They’ve got a better team than us at the minute, as they should given how much money is being pumped into them.

Sort the team out and we’ll beat them.

Its not just about sorting the team out with better players, yes, it does helps but we've proved countless times that having the better or the more in form team is not enough. Plenty poor Hearts teams have walked away from the derby with the win regardless of form or quality.

Hearts attitude to the derby is baked into the club, is future proof and regardless of the players or managers that come into the club the attitude to derbies is seamlessly passed on and is adhered to. At the point of entry there is clearly some induction for new players/managers into what is most important to Hearts as a club, that is victory in the derby, it is obviously so successful its almost admirable if it wasn't so gut wrenching to be on the wrong end of it so often.

The majority, if not all of our managers that adhere to the 'just another game' outward approach inevitably suffer inferior derby records, regardless of the quality of player at their disposal, it's no coincidence that the spells we've had of parity/slight dominance are when managers have treated it far differently (since 2000 I'd say that would be McLeish, Stubbs and Lennon) however when those managers leave the club that attitude goes with them and we are then at the mercy of how the next manager treats the derby, that does not happen at Hearts.

Until we address our approach to the derby and adopt a similar be all/end all attitude on day 1 of all who enter the Hibs door then we'll continue to be on the wrong of the majority of the outcomes, the results of the professional game can settled by small margins, we've been on the wrong end of too many times of these small margins in the derby for it to be a coincidence.

The extra few percent the club can put into a new approach to the fixture will make the difference and we can begin to redress the balance of power in this fixture which is absurdly lopsided for two similar level clubs.

[ekhibee]

As somebody who first started following Hibs in the 1970s, I find our derby record since the 80s particularly hard to stomach. In my formative years, the boot was very much on the other foot and IIRC we lost only a couple of derbies in something like 15 years.

There was a real sea change when Hearts came back up from years of yo-yoing up and down from the First Division. Guys like Gary Mackay and Dave Bowman were dyed in the wool yams who have spoken about growing up in the late 60s/70s and watching Hibs utterly dominate the fixture. The third time they got relegated Hearts failed to come back up and spent an extra season in the lower league, which was actually the making of them under Alex MacDonald and Sandy Jardine and by the time they came back up in the early 80s they were a stronger side overall than a Hibs team which wasn't even a pale shadow of our derby-dominating 70s side. That set the tone for the fixture and we suffered through two ridiculous runs when we didn't win a derby in 20-plus games each time (it was that period that really embedded the 'natural order' mindset in guys like Levein). Circa 10 years later, Jim Jefferies became Hearts boss and he was another who'd endured much suffering at Hibs' hands (as a player) so was determined to win the fixture at all costs. Here again, Hearts had a stronger side than us but it was primarily a mindset thing before Alex McLeish arrived on the scene, signed guys like Latapy and Sauzee who were a class above what Hearts had to offer, instilled Yogi as captain and inflicted the derby suffering on Jefferies all over again!

Post-McLeish, however, we've only sporadically taken charge of the fixture and we're now very much back at a stage where the overall Hearts derby mindset seems to help them prevail to a lop-sided extent. As somebody else has pointed out, our record since the Gordons took overall charge is an embarrassment. It is, as the OP suggests, something that needs to be taken much more seriously by the club.

It's not been addressed properly for donkeys years, you can only go so far with the McLeish thing, he regularly beat Hearts with other teams he was managing. For me we maybe missed a trick somewhere along the line by not appointing g Michael O'Neil as manager, he was a great player for us and he hated Hearts. Under him we probably wouldn't have had that 'just another game' mentality that seems to have existed for years with Hibs managers. Just my opinion though.

[matty_f]

Its not just about sorting the team out with better players, yes, it does helps but we've proved countless times that having the better or the more in form team is not enough. Plenty poor Hearts teams have walked away from the derby with the win regardless of form or quality.

Hearts attitude to the derby is baked into the club, is future proof and regardless of the players or managers that come into the club the attitude to derbies is seamlessly passed on and is adhered to. At the point of entry there is clearly some induction for new players/managers into what is most important to Hearts as a club, that is victory in the derby, it is obviously so successful its almost admirable if it wasn't so gut wrenching to be on the wrong end of it so often.

The majority, if not all of our managers that adhere to the 'just another game' outward approach inevitably suffer inferior derby records, regardless of the quality of player at their disposal, it's no coincidence that the spells we've had of parity/slight dominance are when managers have treated it far differently (since 2000 I'd say that would be McLeish, Stubbs and Lennon) however when those managers leave the club that attitude goes with them and we are then at the mercy of how the next manager treats the derby, that does not happen at Hearts.

Until we address our approach to the derby and adopt a similar be all/end all attitude on day 1 of all who enter the Hibs door then we'll continue to be on the wrong of the majority of the outcomes, the results of the professional game can settled by small margins, we've been on the wrong end of too many times of these small margins in the derby for it to be a coincidence.

The extra few percent the club can put into a new approach to the fixture will make the difference and we can begin to redress the balance of power in this fixture which is absurdly lopsided for two similar level clubs.

Being totally honest, there haven’t been that many Hearts sides that haven’t been at least as good as us, and in the few years where we’ve been better we’ve done alright in the fixture.

You have to remember that Hearts have outspent us since at least the days of Mercer, to the point where they almost had to leave Tiny under Robinson and nearly went out the box altogether under Vlad, and since then they’ve had millions of pounds donated to them.

We just don’t like admitting that they’ve got a better team than us , and I can get on board with that, but there haven’t been too many seasons where our team has been significantly better than theirs (imho).

[ekhibee]

Being totally honest, there haven’t been that many Hearts sides that haven’t been at least as good as us, and in the few years where we’ve been better we’ve done alright in the fixture.

You have to remember that Hearts have outspent us since at least the days of Mercer, to the point where they almost had to leave Tiny under Robinson and nearly went out the box altogether under Vlad, and since then they’ve had millions of pounds donated to them.

We just don’t like admitting that they’ve got a better team than us , and I can get on board with that, but there haven’t been too many seasons where our team has been significantly better than theirs (imho).

Well you can count me in the 'don't like admitting' group then as I totally disagree with you. There have bèn plenty of games where we have been better than Hearts, win, lose or draw. The games where we have been the better team are not in the minority either in my opinion, obviously you have a different opinion. I can't think of many Hearts players that come anywhere near the quality of player that have played for Hibs.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Being totally honest, there haven’t been that many Hearts sides that haven’t been at least as good as us, and in the few years where we’ve been better we’ve done alright in the fixture.

You have to remember that Hearts have outspent us since at least the days of Mercer, to the point where they almost had to leave Tiny under Robinson and nearly went out the box altogether under Vlad, and since then they’ve had millions of pounds donated to them.

We just don’t like admitting that they’ve got a better team than us , and I can get on board with that, but there haven’t been too many seasons where our team has been significantly better than theirs (imho).

It's the ones we've lost when we've been better that are particularly infuriating. Getting hammered 3-1 at home by Stendal's relegation fodder is a prime example. Losing three times to their administrated, relegation haunted team full of kids in 2013-14 is another. Heckingbottom getting beaten at home by Levein's Hearts team that had barely won a game in months. Even last week. They weren't better.

The Famous FIve didn't have a great derby record either it has to be said, so this isn't a recent thing.

[Aldoo]

Being totally honest, there haven’t been that many Hearts sides that haven’t been at least as good as us, and in the few years where we’ve been better we’ve done alright in the fixture.

You have to remember that Hearts have outspent us since at least the days of Mercer, to the point where they almost had to leave Tiny under Robinson and nearly went out the box altogether under Vlad, and since then they’ve had millions of pounds donated to them.

We just don’t like admitting that they’ve got a better team than us , and I can get on board with that, but there haven’t been too many seasons where our team has been significantly better than theirs (imho).

Ok but I would take an educated guess that Aberdeen have also outspent us significantly in the last 20 years too and I know our record against Aberdeen will be nowhere near as bad as what it is against hearts. Whether we’ve had better, same or worse teams than Hearts at any given time they tend to find that extra 5% that get them over the line against us more often than we do against them and this extra 5% is ingrained into them from the off.

I’ll acknowledge with no problems at all they have had better teams than us I just dont think it’s down to quality of player every time.

[GreenCastle]

Are Hearts our bogey team?

Our record against Aberdeen has been pretty bad too.

Not ideal as both our main challengers usually for 3rd and 4th.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Are Hearts our bogey team?

Our record against Aberdeen has been pretty bad too.

Not ideal as both our main challengers usually for 3rd and 4th.

We've done just fine against Aberdeen in the last few years

[matty_f]

Well you can count me in the 'don't like admitting' group then as I totally disagree with you. There have bèn plenty of games where we have been better than Hearts, win, lose or draw. The games where we have been the better team are not in the minority either in my opinion, obviously you have a different opinion. I can't think of many Hearts players that come anywhere near the quality of player that have played for Hibs.

I don’t mean better on the day - there have been plenty of those, I mean generally better (as in better players, higher league finishes etc)


I think Hearts’ team at the moment, with what we’ve got fit and available, is better than ours, and if you are doing a select I think they edge it with players if you look at the two starting line-ups from Wednesday.

[matty_f]

Ok but I would take an educated guess that Aberdeen have also outspent us significantly in the last 20 years too and I know our record against Aberdeen will be nowhere near as bad as what it is against hearts. Whether we’ve had better, same or worse teams than Hearts at any given time they tend to find that extra 5% that get them over the line against us more often than we do against them and this extra 5% is ingrained into them from the off.

I’ll acknowledge with no problems at all they have had better teams than us I just dont think it’s down to quality of player every time.

Aberdeen have won 43% to our 30% wins according to this site:
https://www.soccerpunter.com/h2h/Aberdeen-vs-Hibernian/273/66/ so it definitely helps to spend more.

I just think we are in danger of giving them credit for doing something that we do as well - there's not a soul at Hibs who doesn't know what the derby means, there's far too much gets read into the quotes in the press, IMHO.

We didn't play like it was just another game, there was nothing between the teams despite Hearts apparent ingrained need to beat Hibs. That mentality didn't make Rocky **** up his headed clearance or make Boyle miss his penalty any more than it made Shankland miss his penalty or his other chances.

I think there's a load of handwringing here that I totally get, but I am not convinced that manager after manager, player after player etc doesn't understand the importance of the derby or go into them absolutely determined to win.

[neil7908]

It would be an over the top reaction to one match in isolation. Problem is we've seen that movie too many times and our appalling overall derby record is testament to that. Folk are entitled to question why the f*** we have so often found this fixture so troublesome. I'm pretty sure Hearts have won almost double the number of derbies we have. That's a mind-bogglingly awful and frankly inexcusable stat.

This.

We're also a club with ambitions for 3rd. We can't keep losing at home to the team that we're chasing for the best of the rest.

Yes the fact it's Hearts is extra sore but we also threw away a great chance to seriously close the gap on 3rd, and now find ourselves in mid table.

This game wasn't just about bragging rights - it was a classic 6 pointer.

[matty_f]

I don’t mean better on the day - there have been plenty of those, I mean generally better (as in better players, higher league finishes etc)


I think Hearts’ team at the moment, with what we’ve got fit and available, is better than ours, and if you are doing a select I think they edge it with players if you look at the two starting line-ups from Wednesday.


Just to add to this, the all time league table https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/sco-premiership/ objectively shows that Hearts have historically had better teams.

[He's here!]

Are Hearts our bogey team?

Our record against Aberdeen has been pretty bad too.

Not ideal as both our main challengers usually for 3rd and 4th.

Aberdeen are a bit ahead of us in overall wins, but that was inflated by them being a triple title/multi trophy-winning side in the 80s, when they were streets ahead of us.

Our record against Hearts is by far the worst we have against any side outwith Celtc and Rangers.

Motherwell have won more games against Hearts than we have. That's how bad our record is.

[matty_f]

Aberdeen are a bit ahead of us in overall wins, but that was inflated by them being a triple title/multi trophy-winning side in the 80s, when they were streets ahead of us.

Our record against Hearts is by far the worst we have against any side outwith Celtc and Rangers.

Motherwell have won more games against Hearts than we have. That's how bad our record is.

The record is an embarrassment.

[ekhibee]

I don’t mean better on the day - there have been plenty of those, I mean generally better (as in better players, higher league finishes etc)


I think Hearts’ team at the moment, with what we’ve got fit and available, is better than ours, and if you are doing a select I think they edge it with players if you look at the two starting line-ups from Wednesday.

I certainly wouldn't argue with your 2nd statement in fact I agree with it totally. But I can't in all honesty think of any Hearts player over the years that comes close to some of the players that have played for Hibs. At the same time, I think Hearts are much better in terms of working as a team over the years, hence often finishing in higher league positions and success in derby games, and the top quality players we have had have sometimes stood out in a team that is otherwise mediocre.

What annoys me is that needed improvements to various areas of the team were consistently not addressed which only benefits teams like Hearts.

[matty_f]

I certainly wouldn't argue with your 2nd statement in fact I agree with it totally. But I can't in all honesty think of any Hearts player over the years that comes close to some of the players that have played for Hibs. At the same time, I think Hearts are much better in terms of working as a team over the years, hence often finishing in higher league positions and success in derby games, and the top quality players we have had have sometimes stood out in a team that is otherwise mediocre.

What annoys me is that needed improvements to various areas of the team were consistently not addressed which only benefits teams like Hearts.

I agree with that, tbh.

[JohnM1875]

I don’t mean better on the day - there have been plenty of those, I mean generally better (as in better players, higher league finishes etc)


I think Hearts’ team at the moment, with what we’ve got fit and available, is better than ours, and if you are doing a select I think they edge it with players if you look at the two starting line-ups from Wednesday.

The only way they edge it is they have Shankland. Other than that there’s **** all between the teams.

[SHODAN]

Every season there's a game where we outplayed them but lost/drew.

Every season there was "nothing between the teams but they edged it".

Every season there's some player they have who plays out of their skin for them and wins the game. We've plenty technically gifted players, never seem to pull it off against them though.

Every season they "get lucky".

The above doesn't happen, consistently for one side and not the other, by pure chance. Either we're a million-to-one statistical anomaly or our club just doesn't care as much about the derby as Hearts. Learn to live with it or actually try and do something about it outwith raging for a few days after the latest defeat.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Just checked and it's 149 Hearts wins v 87 Hibs wins. 101 draws.

I don’t why the head-to-head would favour them so decisively, when the two clubs are of such similar size and resources. It’s baffling and we have to improve upon it in the coming years and decades. They have dominated the fixture for about thirty or forty years now. Making ER a very difficult place for them to win has to be the first step.

[JohnM1875]

Every season there's a game where we outplayed them but lost/drew.

Every season there was "nothing between the teams but they edged it".

Every season there's some player they have who plays out of their skin for them and wins the game. We've plenty technically gifted players, never seem to pull it off against them though.

Every season they "get lucky".

The above doesn't happen, consistently for one side and not the other, by pure chance. Either we're a million-to-one statistical anomaly or our club just doesn't care as much about the derby as Hearts. Learn to live with it or actually try and do something about it outwith raging for a few days after the latest defeat.

You've literally just described being a football fan though. It's ***** losing and on the whole, bias or not, when we lose folk will come out with some or all of the above.

It just so happens you support a team on the worse end of a head to head record. Historically I genuinely couldn't care less what the numbers are. I'm 35 and in my life time, other than the Romanov years it's been pretty even.

[JohnM1875]

I don’t why the head-to-head would favour them so decisively, when the two clubs are of such similar size and resources. It’s baffling and we have to improve upon it in the coming years and decades. They have dominated the fixture for about thirty or forty years now. Making ER a very difficult place for them to win has to be the first step.

Why does the overall record of a fixture that's been played for almost 150 years matter though? I've honestly never understood why people get bent out of shape about it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Why does the overall record of a fixture that's been played for almost 150 years matter though? I've honestly never understood why people get bent out of shape about it.

Each individual defeat to your fiercest rivals matters. Yes, it’s only a game, but it matters. If it didn’t matter to us, we wouldn’t be supporters but would have different hobbies. Their smug coupons and horrific ‘big team’ patter matters to us. That’s the nature of rivalry. Of course it isn’t the most important thing in the world, but every derby defeat underscores their deluded narrative. To put it in a nutshell, I ******* hate losing to them :greengrin

[JohnM1875]

Each individual defeat to your fiercest rivals matters. Yes, it’s only a game, but it matters. If it didn’t matter to us, we wouldn’t be supporters but would have different hobbies. Their smug coupons and horrific ‘big team’ patter matters to us. That’s the nature of rivalry. Of course it isn’t the most important thing in the world, but every derby defeat underscores their deluded narrative. To put it in a nutshell, I ******* hate losing to them :greengrin

Nah, of course. But, and I'm guessing your age here, the 4-1 defeat in 1909 doesn't keep me up at night and neither it should any of us.

Like I said earlier, in my lifetime it's been pretty even, minus their nine years of cheating. Still hate losing to them, but we seem to worry about a historic record that really shouldn't matter.

[matty_f]

Nah, of course. But, and I'm guessing your age here, the 4-1 defeat in 1909 doesn't keep me up at night and neither it should any of us.

Like I said earlier, in my lifetime it's been pretty even, minus their nine years of cheating. Still hate losing to them, but we seem to worry about a historic record that really shouldn't matter.

You make an excellent point, tbf.

[Smartie]

The only way they edge it is they have Shankland. Other than that there’s **** all between the teams.

This makes out that Shankland is some sort of Uber-expensive player we could never expect to get our hands on.

Could we not have made a move for him when he was at Ayr? Or struggling overseas? Or when he was at Dundee United?

How much money have we spent on strikers over that time?

I don’t disagree that he was ultimately the difference. I take issue with the fact that this is something inevitable that we are powerless to do anything about because they spend more money than us.

[matty_f]

This makes out that Shankland is some sort of Uber-expensive player we could never expect to get our hands on.

Could we not have made a move for him when he was at Ayr? Or struggling overseas? Or when he was at Dundee United?

How much money have we spent on strikers over that time?

I don’t disagree that he was ultimately the difference. I take issue with the fact that this is something inevitable that we are powerless to do anything about because they spend more money than us.

I don’t think anyone’s saying that it’s either inevitable or that we are powerless to do anything about it - I’m not sure what Hearts paid for Shankland, but Vente wasn’t cheap so I agree with you that it’s not just about the money spent on a player. Nisbet was arguably better than Shankland for a while, he’s just in good form at the minute but like most strikers he blows hot and cold.

[LaMotta]

Just to add to this, the all time league table https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/sco-premiership/ objectively shows that Hearts have historically had better teams.

True Matty but then look at what has actually been achieved by both clubs over (for example) the last 60 years.

Hibs have more major trophies (4 to their 3), have been in more cup finals, we have a better statistical European record, and have less relegations than Hearts.

This doesnt point to them having particularly greater teams than us overall. Certainly shows the derby record to be an anomaly.

But also they seem to be able to win derbies comfortably more often than us. I mean two three nil wins in a row in the space of a month last season highlight that. Yet when we do win (with a few notable exceptions) we almost always scrape past them by goal, even if we've played them off the park. We've only one win by more than a goal margin at Tynie in over 2 decades. The 6-2 game in 2000 was also the last time we beat them by 3 clear goals.

In that 23 year time frame as a comparison we have beat Rangers 3-0 on 3 occasions at their own ground and 4-0 once at home. We've hammered Aberdeen 6-0, 4-1 and 3-0.......

It just doesnt make sense.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Why does the overall record of a fixture that's been played for almost 150 years matter though? I've honestly never understood why people get bent out of shape about it.

Stats and “how long is your schlong”? - is the realm of the Jambos - they have a shrine dedicated to our Scottish Cup record and Derby record at the LondoneHearts website.

Flip it back tho the one incredible stat they’ve omitted last time I looked is that certain date we broke the Hoodoo.

Post 2012 there appeared to have been a bit of a line drawn Stubbs team seemed to have throw off the shackles of Hibstory in the Derby. The managerial revolving door has seen our Derby record vary since.

Draw a line build from here.

oh and by the way since WalletMerciless (who didn’t pay pay Polis bills) they’ve been up to something financially.
personally I as a child of Miler-time his inexcusable derby record has affected my perspective on the fixture. I’m grateful for the SkolCup and how he managed us through the dark days of the FAILED takeover bid but recoord is a blot on his career.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

True Matty but then look at what has actually been achieved by both clubs over (for example) the last 60 years.

Hibs have more major trophies (4 to their 3), have been in more cup finals, we have a better statistical European record, and have less relegations than Hearts.

This doesnt point to them having particularly greater teams than us overall. Certainly shows the derby record to be an anomaly.

But also they seem to be able to win derbies comfortably more often than us. I mean two three nil wins in a row in the space of a month last season highlight that. Yet when we do win (with a few notable exceptions) we almost always scrape past them by goal, even if we've played them off the park. We've only one win by more than a goal margin at Tynie in over 2 decades. The 6-2 game in 2000 was also the last time we beat them by 3 clear goals.

In that 23 year time frame as a comparison we have beat Rangers 3-0 on 3 occasions at their own ground and 4-0 once at home. We've hammered Aberdeen 6-0, 4-1 and 3-0.......

It just doesnt make sense.

I think I have an explaination lads n lasses …! :)

they’re using thr Chewbacca defense https://youtu.be/aV6NoNkDGsU?si=9hNLp8JE0Mx5vFm5

[Pretty Boy]

Does the introduction to new players that came out of 'The Hibs Way' and 'Let's Work Together' still exist?

I always though that was one of the real successes to come out of fans and club working in tandem and for a 2 or 3 year spell most players who passed through the club seemed to really 'get' Hibs. John McGinn is one example; he had no connection to Hibs prior to signing but he played like any of us would play if we were given a strip. He never disrespected the club or agitated for a move when it became clear it was time for him to go and had never been anything but respectful about us when talking since. Equally though someone like Liam Fontaine who wasn't close to McGinn in terms of quality still had an amazing rapport with fans because he worse his heart on his sleeve and loved being here. Even a guy like Grant Holt who had been round the block a few times really seemed to care.

I get that as ownership, personnel and management changes then some thing fall by the wayside. Maybe it's time to think about an updated version though, particularly as we enter a new period in ownership with the possibility of more players coming in who know they are only passing through.

[Alex Trager]

Does the introduction to new players that came out of 'The Hibs Way' and 'Let's Work Together' still exist?

I always though that was one of the real successes to come out of fans and club working in tandem and for a 2 or 3 year spell most players who passed through the club seemed to really 'get' Hibs. John McGinn is one example; he had no connection to Hibs prior to signing but he played like any of us would play if we were given a strip. He never disrespected the club or agitated for a move when it became clear it was time for him to go and had never been anything but respectful about us when talking since. Equally though someone like Liam Fontaine who wasn't close to McGinn in terms of quality still had an amazing rapport with fans because he worse his heart on his sleeve and loved being here. Even a guy like Grant Holt who had been round the block a few times really seemed to care.

I get that as ownership, personnel and management changes then some thing fall by the wayside. Maybe it's time to think about an updated version though, particularly as we enter a new period in ownership with the possibility of more players coming in who know they are only passing through.

Have you ever thought about getting in touch with BK with a suggestion like that?

I have emailed him a few times and he’s gotten back to me on each occasion.

It would perhaps be worth contacting him about that kind of thing mate.

[Danderhall Hibs]

You've literally just described being a football fan though. It's ***** losing and on the whole, bias or not, when we lose folk will come out with some or all of the above.

It just so happens you support a team on the worse end of a head to head record. Historically I genuinely couldn't care less what the numbers are. I'm 35 and in my life time, other than the Romanov years it's been pretty even.

I was saying something similar in the aftermath to my daughters who are starting to be beaten down by social media telling them Hearts are so much better.

Out of interest what is the record over the last 35 years like? I had told them to go and research their record but neither have got back to me yet.

[SickBoy32]

I was saying something similar in the aftermath to my daughters who are starting to be beaten down by social media telling them Hearts are so much better.

Out of interest what is the record over the last 35 years like? I had told them to go and research their record but neither have got back to me yet.

Posted this somewhere else recently, should align roughly with 35year - under Farmer:

Played 103, won 26, drew 34, lost 43

Under the Gordon’s:

Played 15, won2, drew 5 and lost 8.

Brutal record and getting worse under our current leadership (or lack of!!)

Incredible to read on this thread that ****ing Motherwell have beaten them more often than we have

[ekhibee]

Every season there's a game where we outplayed them but lost/drew.

Every season there was "nothing between the teams but they edged it".

Every season there's some player they have who plays out of their skin for them and wins the game. We've plenty technically gifted players, never seem to pull it off against them though.

Every season they "get lucky".

The above doesn't happen, consistently for one side and not the other, by pure chance. Either we're a million-to-one statistical anomaly or our club just doesn't care as much about the derby as Hearts. Learn to live with it or actually try and do something about it outwith raging for a few days after the latest defeat.

Excellent post which reflects a lot of what I think as well. The problem is that right now, and for a wee while now, I'm caring g less and less because it's happened so often to so many Hibs fans now that you start to become oblivious to it. The only thing right now that's keeping me going is the possibility of the Foley money significantly improving the team over a relatively short period of time, and there are still a few ifs and buts regarding that too. But the system needs to be in place where we grow and develop as a team so that the tools are in place to improve and/or address deficiencies in the team instead of always going for the quick fix and changing the manager when things don't always work out. That's when we end up with managers who aren't up to the job like Johnson or Maloney. Just my opinion though.

[GreenCastle]

Every season there's a game where we outplayed them but lost/drew.

Every season there was "nothing between the teams but they edged it".

Every season there's some player they have who plays out of their skin for them and wins the game. We've plenty technically gifted players, never seem to pull it off against them though.

Every season they "get lucky".

The above doesn't happen, consistently for one side and not the other, by pure chance. Either we're a million-to-one statistical anomaly or our club just doesn't care as much about the derby as Hearts. Learn to live with it or actually try and do something about it outwith raging for a few days after the latest defeat.

100%

Even this thread fans aren’t even that arsed.

Compare to hearts fans who post about Hibs and it’s obsessive.

Livingston best Hearts 5-0 last few years.

Brora Rangers beat Hearts last few years.

Let’s see if we improve the squad in January - if we don’t then expect the next 2 derbies to be similar. Until we make changes we will continue to have a terrible record against them.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Posted this somewhere else recently, should align roughly with 35year - under Farmer:

Played 103, won 26, drew 34, lost 43

Under the Gordon’s:

Played 15, won2, drew 5 and lost 8.

Brutal record and getting worse under our current leadership (or lack of!!)

Incredible to read on this thread that ****ing Motherwell have beaten them more often than we have

Oh. So maybe we should be concerned about the recent record then.

[James Stephen]

The only way they edge it is they have Shankland. Other than that there’s **** all between the teams.

They also had a midfield that stopped Hibs getting any sort of control, and a defence that was comfortable for the most part and kept a clean sheet. How many times can you say either of those things for Hibs?

[SHODAN]

Curious how we didn't edge it against them all the time when we had an identical player to Shankland (Nisbet).

[He's here!]

Posted this somewhere else recently, should align roughly with 35year - under Farmer:

Played 103, won 26, drew 34, lost 43

Under the Gordon’s:

Played 15, won2, drew 5 and lost 8.

Brutal record and getting worse under our current leadership (or lack of!!)

Incredible to read on this thread that ****ing Motherwell have beaten them more often than we have

Aberdeen have beaten them 110 times, Motherwell 98 times and Kilmarnock 94 times. I haven't checked any further than that but I imagine the likes of St Mirren and Dundee might be close to our 87 wins.

Edit: Just checked and Dundee have 83 wins, St Mirren 80.

[Bradford]

Curious how we didn't edge it against them all the time when we had an identical player to Shankland (Nisbet).

As an occasional poster and someone who has spent much of my life south of the border I would like to thank all posters for this thread which has been fascinating and enjoyable to read. I went to my first Hibs match as a boy in 1963 so can remember the good times against Hearts as well as the mediocre and bad times.

Let us hope for more good times with Hearts and indeed all the other teams in the SPL.

Happy new year to all netters and of course all Hibbys.

[James Stephen]

Also, for additional context, the overall record across 150 years is

Played 661
Hearts have won 291, Hibs have won 207 (157 draws)

In league, LC and SC it is 356 played:
155 wins to Hearts, 99 to Hibs, 102 draws.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Also, for additional context, the overall record across 150 years is

Played 661
Hearts have won 291, Hibs have won 207 (157 draws)

In league, LC and SC it is 356 played:
155 wins to Hearts, 99 to Hibs, 102 draws.



What's this Hearts 149 wins Hibs 87 wins I keep hearing about then?

All I know is since the day I was born 41 and a half years ago, they've won 67 and we've won 32. Awful.

[He's here!]

[/B]

What's this Hearts 149 wins Hibs 87 wins I keep hearing about then?

All I know is since the day I was born 41 and a half years ago, they've won 67 and we've won 32. Awful.

Not sure where everyone is sourcing their stats from, but Soccerbase head to head has our overall derby record (league, SC and LC only) as 87 wins, 101 draws and 149 defeats:

https://www.soccerbase.com/teams/head_to_head.sd?team_id=1227&team2_id=1289

According to the same source, our record v the rest of the current top flight is:

Aberdeen: 111 wins, 88 draws, 146 defeats.

Celtic: 63 wins, 88 draws, 205 defeats.

Dundee: 107 wins, 60 draws, 89 defeats.

Kilmarnock: 111 wins, 57 draws, 85 defeats.

Livingston: 26 wins, 6 draws, 15 defeats.

Motherwell: 121 wins, 76 draws, 105 defeats.

Rangers: 73 wins, 84 draws, 216 defeats.

Ross County: 12 wins, 8 draws, 10 defeats.

St Johnstone: 69 wins, 39 draws, 50 defeats.

St Mirren: 128 wins, 69 wins, 76 defeats.

Against Dundee United our record is 77 wins, 66 draws, 74 defeats.

Our number of wins against Hearts is the sixth best in the current top flight. A bewilderingly awful stat.

[GreenCastle]

Curious how we didn't edge it against them all the time when we had an identical player to Shankland (Nisbet).

Shankland figures are 191 total goals in 396 games, so 0.482 goals per game.

For Hearts this goes up to 44 in 72, so 0.611 goals per game.

Kevin Nisbet: 113 goals in 273 games, so 0.414 games per goal and 39 in 101 games for us, so 0.386 goals per game.

Better way to think of it is Shankland gets around 23 goals a season for Hearts while Nisbet around 15 goals a season. That's a big difference for your 'main' striker.

[Aldoo]

As an occasional poster and someone who has spent much of my life south of the border I would like to thank all posters for this thread which has been fascinating and enjoyable to read. I went to my first Hibs match as a boy in 1963 so can remember the good times against Hearts as well as the mediocre and bad times.

Let us hope for more good times with Hearts and indeed all the other teams in the SPL.

Happy new year to all netters and of course all Hibbys.

Agreed, I too am a very occasional poster on here but our appalling derby record, that has many knock on effects in more ways than just the games we play against them, is something I am massively passionate about so debating it on here and seeing the view points of others is cathartic for me.

I'll stand by my original point that within the walls of Tiny, the derby is treated with more importance than what our club assign it and that's reflected within the stats, which as others point out are of sync with what you would expect to see considering the relative size of the two clubs.