We get exactly what we put in.

[worcesterhibby]

Having read a few comments on other threads about how Hibs Under-perform and never seem to consistently punch above our weight. I wondered if it was actually true. So here are some facts

We are the 5th richest club in the league. And on average we come about 5th-ish most of the time. Since the year 2000 we have the 5th best league record in Scotland.

Overall if you take every season we have been in the top flight since the year 2000 - our average league placing is 6.4th

That is the 5th best average of any club in the league - which is in line with our budget as having the 5th best budget, behind Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

Motherwell are the 6th/7th (very similar income to Kilmarnock) richest club and their average is 6.6th just behind us (due mainly to the amazing three year period of Stuart McCall being in charge where they were 3rd, 2nd, 2nd which bumps up their average massively)

Kilmarnock are the 6th/7th richest club (very similar income to Motherwell) and their average over the same period is 7.5th

Why would we consistently punch above our weight ? No team in Scotland in the last 25 years has consistently punched above their weight. We basically get what we pay for ! The 5th best team in Scotland.

[GreenCastle]

St Johnstone won the double.

Would also argue several examples of teams punching above their weight / budgets.

Also you could ask why we often lose to teams who have lower budgets / resources than us.

I would agree most leagues in football - the higher spending / wages = higher league placing but not always the case - just look at Newcastle / Man Utd just now etc.

[Steve20]

What a depressing thought that is.

5th is what we should be content with basically. Great, how exciting.🙄

[Stubbsy90+2]

What would it be like if we included our time spent in the Championship? That should be included I’d suggest.

[greenlex]

St Johnstone won the double.

Would also argue several examples of teams punching above their weight / budgets.

Also you could ask why we often lose to teams who have lower budgets / resources than us.

I would agree most leagues in football - the higher spending / wages = higher league placing but not always the case - just look at Newcastle / Man Utd just now etc.
Several teams? Possibly but they aren’t doing it regularly. Even we punch above finishing third or fourth every now and then.
We lose to teams with lower budgets but often? We do beat them a fair bit too. It’s like when we beat Rangers Celtic Hearts and Aberdeen. It does happen.
The St Johnstone double was an absolute fluke and stars aligned moment. Just as it would have been if it had been us.

[greenlex]

What a depressing thought that is.

5th is what we should be content with basically. Great, how exciting.��
I’m not so sure that’s what the original poster is saying but should we be surprised?

[He's here!]

Having read a few comments on other threads about how Hibs Under-perform and never seem to consistently punch above our weight. I wondered if it was actually true. So here are some facts

We are the 5th richest club in the league. And on average we come about 5th-ish most of the time. Since the year 2000 we have the 5th best league record in Scotland.

Overall if you take every season we have been in the top flight since the year 2000 - our average league placing is 6.4th

That is the 5th best average of any club in the league - which is in line with our budget as having the 5th best budget, behind Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

Motherwell are the 6th/7th (very similar income to Kilmarnock) richest club and their average is 6.6th just behind us (due mainly to the amazing three year period of Stuart McCall being in charge where they were 3rd, 2nd, 2nd which bumps up their average massively)

Kilmarnock are the 6th/7th richest club (very similar income to Motherwell) and their average over the same period is 7.5th

Why would we consistently punch above our weight ? No team in Scotland in the last 25 years has consistently punched above their weight. We basically get what we pay for ! The 5th best team in Scotland.

If we were consistently finishing around 5th I'd kind of agree but we rarely finish in the top 5. We are wildly inconsistent and spent 3 of the last 10 seasons in the Championship. We also lose - or fail to beat - sides we're supposedly better than on a maddeningly frequent basis..

[greenlex]

If we were consistently finishing around 5th I'd kind of agree but we rarely finish in the top 5. We are wildly inconsistent and spent 3 of the last 10 seasons in the Championship. We also lose - or fail to beat - sides we're supposedly better than on a maddeningly frequent basis..
Define phenomenal?
edit - it is maddening. Define frequent.

[Jones28]

If we were consistently finishing around 5th I'd kind of agree but we rarely finish in the top 5. We are wildly inconsistent and spent 3 of the last 10 seasons in the Championship. We also lose - or fail to beat - sides we're supposedly better than on a maddeningly frequent basis..

And yet we finish fifth on average? So would that not suggest our record against those sides is better than theirs is against us.

It feels frequent but the majority of our league wins come against teams that we “should” be beating.

[DIXIHIBS]

Having read a few comments on other threads about how Hibs Under-perform and never seem to consistently punch above our weight. I wondered if it was actually true. So here are some facts

We are the 5th richest club in the league. And on average we come about 5th-ish most of the time. Since the year 2000 we have the 5th best league record in Scotland.

Overall if you take every season we have been in the top flight since the year 2000 - our average league placing is 6.4th

That is the 5th best average of any club in the league - which is in line with our budget as having the 5th best budget, behind Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

Motherwell are the 6th/7th (very similar income to Kilmarnock) richest club and their average is 6.6th just behind us (due mainly to the amazing three year period of Stuart McCall being in charge where they were 3rd, 2nd, 2nd which bumps up their average massively)

Kilmarnock are the 6th/7th richest club (very similar income to Motherwell) and their average over the same period is 7.5th

Why would we consistently punch above our weight ? No team in Scotland in the last 25 years has consistently punched above their weight. We basically get what we pay for ! The 5th best team in Scotland.

Until recently, hibs hearts and dons have had a fairly simlilar budget which in turn is well ahead of well/killie. You state our average position since 2000 is 6.4...ie between 6th and 7th. I suggest we do underperform. Between 4th 5th should be our average based on wealth but we should be challenging for 3rd 4th far more often than we do.

[Jones28]

Until recently, hibs hearts and dons have had a fairly simlilar budget which in turn is well ahead of well/killie. You state our average position since 2000 is 6.4...ie between 6th and 7th. I suggest we do underperform. Between 4th 5th should be our average based on wealth but we should be challenging for 3rd 4th far more often than we do.

Why should we if our budget is fifth highest?

[greenlex]

Until recently, hibs hearts and dons have had a fairly simlilar budget which in turn is well ahead of well/killie. You state our average position since 2000 is 6.4...ie between 6th and 7th. I suggest we do underperform. Between 4th 5th should be our average based on wealth but we should be challenging for 3rd 4th far more often than we do.
I don’t think we have had similar budgets Hearts have regularly outspent us, for years other people’s cash, for all of that time. I’m fairly certain for the majority Aberdeen have too. Add in our infrastructure is way ahead of both and that cost a fair wedge too. 5th biggest budget is on the money for me.

[DIXIHIBS]

Why should we if our budget is fifth highest?

The difference in budget isnt huge compared to the OF so why shouldn't we challenging? In not saying we should be 3rd every year but we should be up there. Why should say, Livi ever be in the top 6? Why should hibs ever be out the top 6? Why is our average 6.4? Some teams underperform in a season, others overperfom, but over a longer period we have clearly underperformed. Just my opinion.

[sean]

The difference in budget isnt huge compared to the OF so why shouldn't we challenging? In not saying we should be 3rd every year but we should be up there. Why should say, Livi ever be in the top 6? Why should hibs ever be out the top 6? Why is our average 6.4? Some teams underperform in a season, others overperfom, but over a longer period we have clearly underperformed. Just my opinion.

I don’t think the budgets between Hibs and Aberdeen / hearts then to the teams below is of an amount that is going to guarantee you wins every single week against the lower budget clubs.

I totally agree with the original poster that we pinch our weight most seasons in terms of our budget. There are a few caveats to that as the following comments have suggested.

We shouldn’t be getting relegated that’s for sure and it’s utterly criminal that it happened to a club our size in this league.

I would say we challenge for 3rd most seasons overall but settle in around fifth, we were close to third last season under LJ till the final weeks, we could have stolen 3rd late in the day if we’d got results at dons and Tynie.

It’s the same as someone else said on another thread after a defeat there’s always lots of crazy Chat going round. The stats show we punch out weight on average in league positions and are definitely above par on semi and final appearances. Our derby record is awful and so is getting relegated for a club like ourselves.

[LaMotta]

Having read a few comments on other threads about how Hibs Under-perform and never seem to consistently punch above our weight. I wondered if it was actually true. So here are some facts

We are the 5th richest club in the league. And on average we come about 5th-ish most of the time. Since the year 2000 we have the 5th best league record in Scotland.

Overall if you take every season we have been in the top flight since the year 2000 - our average league placing is 6.4th

That is the 5th best average of any club in the league - which is in line with our budget as having the 5th best budget, behind Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

Motherwell are the 6th/7th (very similar income to Kilmarnock) richest club and their average is 6.6th just behind us (due mainly to the amazing three year period of Stuart McCall being in charge where they were 3rd, 2nd, 2nd which bumps up their average massively)

Kilmarnock are the 6th/7th richest club (very similar income to Motherwell) and their average over the same period is 7.5th

Why would we consistently punch above our weight ? No team in Scotland in the last 25 years has consistently punched above their weight. We basically get what we pay for ! The 5th best team in Scotland.

Fair points. I think we could cope with that but.....

What is unnaceptable is our record against Hearts over 4 decades. Our bogie team is our closest rivals and that is a disgrace.

[He's here!]

Several teams? Possibly but they aren’t doing it regularly. Even we punch above finishing third or fourth every now and then.
We lose to teams with lower budgets but often? We do beat them a fair bit too. It’s like when we beat Rangers Celtic Hearts and Aberdeen. It does happen.
The St Johnstone double was an absolute fluke and stars aligned moment. Just as it would have been if it had been us.

You can't 'fluke' both major domestic cups in the same season. It was a terrific achievement by St Johnstone, who have won as many major trophies in the last decade as we have in the last 30 years.

We were agonisingly close to winning both cups in 2016 as a Championship side. Would that have been a 'fluke'?

[greenlex]

You can't 'fluke' both major domestic cups in the same season. It was a terrific achievement by St Johnstone, who have won as many major trophies in the last decade as we have in the last 30 years.

We were agonisingly close to winning both cups in 2016 as a Championship side. Would that have been a 'fluke'?

Yes it would have been. How many times has that been done outside the old firm in the modern era? The answer is never before even in the old days. If St Johnstone hadn’t been a fluke they would have also at least finished 3rd and consolidated the following season. They got lucky in the league cup they didn’t have to face Rangers or Celtic and got us underperforming in the final. They got lucky only having to face Rangers en route to the Scottish final. They won that game by the lottery of penalties. Luck plays a part over a one off tie.of course it does winning both in the same season was a fluke all right. How did they perform the following season?

[Scotty Leither]

Fair points. I think we could cope with that but.....

What is unnaceptable is our record against Hearts over 4 decades. Our bogie team is our closest rivals and that is a disgrace.

Correct. Somebody should tell the current (and previous) Board that. I dinnae think they quite “get it”.

[ekhibee]

I would say there's loads of ways to spin figures and make them fit in with a point your trying to make. I would argue that in the majority of games we ha e played against Hearts (seemingly the 3rd richest club) we have been the better team, regardless of whether we win lose or draw. It's fine lines that often determine results of football matches, otherwise competition would be pointless. If everybody believes that it should always be teams that are richer than us that finish above us, then people would IMO stop going to football.

[greenlex]

I would say there's loads of ways to spin figures and make them fit in with a point your trying to make. I would argue that in the majority of games we ha e played against Hearts (seemingly the 3rd richest club) we have been the better team, regardless of whether we win lose or draw. It's fine lines that often determine results of football matches, otherwise competition would be pointless. If everybody believes that it should always be teams that are richer than us that finish above us, then people would IMO stop going to football.
It normally is. Certainly the majority of the time. Yes teams do it but they are punching above their collective parts when they do. 90 mins anything can happen and sometimes does. Over the piece the shake up us about right give or take.

[GreenCastle]

You could also look at the gap between 3rd downwards - does the difference in budget mean we finish X amount of points behind 3rd?

Is Naebadges getting paid much more than Monty also ?

There are plenty examples of teams doing better than us with less resources - The games we lose to Livi, Saints, Ross County etc are usually the ones which get managers sacked when they can’t beat these teams with less resources.

[Mcbizz1998]

What a depressing thought that is.

5th is what we should be content with basically. Great, how exciting.🙄

True but on the plus side if Foley can elevate us to the 3rd spenders in the country then we can be hopeful that will elevate us to the best of the rest.

If we didn’t have the impending investment I’d be a lot more depressed about the OP’s stats.

[Is It On....]

Having read a few comments on other threads about how Hibs Under-perform and never seem to consistently punch above our weight. I wondered if it was actually true. So here are some facts

We are the 5th richest club in the league. And on average we come about 5th-ish most of the time. Since the year 2000 we have the 5th best league record in Scotland.

Overall if you take every season we have been in the top flight since the year 2000 - our average league placing is 6.4th

That is the 5th best average of any club in the league - which is in line with our budget as having the 5th best budget, behind Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

Motherwell are the 6th/7th (very similar income to Kilmarnock) richest club and their average is 6.6th just behind us (due mainly to the amazing three year period of Stuart McCall being in charge where they were 3rd, 2nd, 2nd which bumps up their average massively)

Kilmarnock are the 6th/7th richest club (very similar income to Motherwell) and their average over the same period is 7.5th

Why would we consistently punch above our weight ? No team in Scotland in the last 25 years has consistently punched above their weight. We basically get what we pay for ! The 5th best team in Scotland.

IF we did our recruitment better, especially managers, then we would regularly be 3rd and not suffer relegation. Maybe time to revitalise that link with Brighton to see if they can help us improve what we are doing 👍.

On a wider issue, it was quoted on the BBC that Hibs have a wage budget equivalent to a Top 8 budget in English League 1 and therefore our ability to improve outside our Scottish peers is severely hampered by the awful TV deals being negotiated for Scottish teams by our glorious administrators. Until this changes, then nothing really changes and, in circular fashion, it's critical that we improve our recruitment particularly in Scotland.

[SickBoy32]

Correct. Somebody should tell the current (and previous) Board that. I dinnae think they quite “get it”.

The derby record is brutal, however in fairness to our previous ownership - it wasn’t too bad (could have been better of course).

Under STF we played just over 100 derbies in all comps, 25% wins / 33% draws / 42% loss. Not that bad (would it be fair to expect 33% wins, draws and losses respectively?) given this covered the jambos money laundering period, and also a period of significant infrastructure growth for ourselves where funds were being diverted.

Under the Gordon’s however - ****ing abysmal, somehow we’ve got worse in this fixture. After 15 derbies we have a 13% win rate / 33% draws / 53% losses. And this is in a period of increased player budgets for us apparently, whilst they’re hamstrung with the dafty that is Budge.

I’d like to think those figures make for extremely uncomfortable reading for the current ownership - something that needs improved urgently. I’d add that I’d make this a KPI for Kensell, rather than allowing him to purely focus on sponsors which ultimately adds nothing for us as fans. What point is an increased turnover / budget if these are the results?!

[CentreForward]

Looks as if we might possibly be about to be transformed into the 3rd richest club in the league. Does that mean that we should now start to expect 3rd place finishes and the occasional Cup?

[greenlex]

Looks as if we might possibly be about to be transformed into the 3rd richest club in the league. Does that mean that we should now start to expect 3rd place finishes and the occasional Cup?

Pretty much if that is the case.

[CentreForward]

Pretty much if that is the case.


Let’s hope so!

[greenlex]

Let’s hope so!

Amen.

[He's here!]

Looks as if we might possibly be about to be transformed into the 3rd richest club in the league. Does that mean that we should now start to expect 3rd place finishes and the occasional Cup?

If that's genuinely the case (I'll believe it when I see it) and we are SIGNIFICANTLY better funded than any team outwith the big two then yes of course we should have ambitions on that level.

[LaMotta]

The derby record is brutal, however in fairness to our previous ownership - it wasn’t too bad (could have been better of course).

Under STF we played just over 100 derbies in all comps, 25% wins / 33% draws / 42% loss. Not that bad (would it be fair to expect 33% wins, draws and losses respectively?) given this covered the jambos money laundering period, and also a period of significant infrastructure growth for ourselves where funds were being diverted.

Under the Gordon’s however - ****ing abysmal, somehow we’ve got worse in this fixture. After 15 derbies we have a 13% win rate / 33% draws / 53% losses. And this is in a period of increased player budgets for us apparently, whilst they’re hamstrung with the dafty that is Budge.

I’d like to think those figures make for extremely uncomfortable reading for the current ownership - something that needs improved urgently. I’d add that I’d make this a KPI for Kensell, rather than allowing him to purely focus on sponsors which ultimately adds nothing for us as fans. What point is an increased turnover / budget if these are the results?!

Wow. The STF derby record is awful IMO. But the Gordon Stats are eye bleeding.

[CentreForward]

If that's genuinely the case (I'll believe it when I see it) and we are SIGNIFICANTLY better funded than any team outwith the big two then yes of course we should have ambitions on that level.


Agreed!

[BoomtownHibees]

Yes it would have been. How many times has that been done outside the old firm in the modern era? The answer is never before even in the old days. If St Johnstone hadn’t been a fluke they would have also at least finished 3rd and consolidated the following season. They got lucky in the league cup they didn’t have to face Rangers or Celtic and got us underperforming in the final. They got lucky only having to face Rangers en route to the Scottish final. They won that game by the lottery of penalties. Luck plays a part over a one off tie.of course it does winning both in the same season was a fluke all right. How did they perform the following season?

None of this is right in regards how St Johnstone won their cups

[DIXIHIBS]

Having read a few comments on other threads about how Hibs Under-perform and never seem to consistently punch above our weight. I wondered if it was actually true. So here are some facts

We are the 5th richest club in the league. And on average we come about 5th-ish most of the time. Since the year 2000 we have the 5th best league record in Scotland.

Overall if you take every season we have been in the top flight since the year 2000 - our average league placing is 6.4th

That is the 5th best average of any club in the league - which is in line with our budget as having the 5th best budget, behind Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen.

Motherwell are the 6th/7th (very similar income to Kilmarnock) richest club and their average is 6.6th just behind us (due mainly to the amazing three year period of Stuart McCall being in charge where they were 3rd, 2nd, 2nd which bumps up their average massively)

Kilmarnock are the 6th/7th richest club (very similar income to Motherwell) and their average over the same period is 7.5th

Why would we consistently punch above our weight ? No team in Scotland in the last 25 years has consistently punched above their weight. We basically get what we pay for ! The 5th best team in Scotland.

Was bored so looked up a few stats. Based on budgets/league positions...hertz 3rd highest budget then Dons and Hibs. Went back to the introduction of the premier league 1975/76 so over a decent time,Hibs achieved their budget position
(5th) 6 times, overachieved 9 times, underachieved 32 times. Hertz 3rd 9 times, overachieved 2 times, underachieved 34 times. Aberdeen 4th 11 times, overachieved 21 times, underachieved 16 times. Obviously a lot a things have to be taken into consideration but Dons easily the most consistent team over the last 50 year or so. As for Hibs, we finished 6th or worse, twice as often as we finished top 5. Not good enough sadly.

[greenlex]

None of this is right in regards how St Johnstone won their cups

None of it? Enlighten me.

[Jones28]

None of this is right in regards how St Johnstone won their cups

Does anyone think no crowds had an influence on that season and Saints success?

[NAE NOOKIE]

If the Black Knights group have done their due diligence, which you would thing folk spending multiple millions would, the stats in this thread are probably exactly what they looked at before thinking Hibs were a decent shout for investment.

Hearts were out of the window for a number of reasons, the big three being their fan ownership model, a stadium it would and will cost a fortune to expand and their lack of a training ground.

Aberdeen need a new stadium and have little prospect of increasing their crowds above the level they get, even in the 80s they averaged around 14,000.

Of all these clubs, so close to each other in si2e, Hibs have a stadium that can be expanded or improved at far lower cost than the other two. We have a training ground that can be ramped up without having to start from scratch and we have proved that if we are successful we can significantly up our average attendances.

There is little doubt that a regular and consistent input of around £10,000,000 a season to this club, if spent wisely, could rocket it to a position where it could and should regularly leave it's nearest rivals trailing.

For context ... In the last transfer window Bournemouth paid £25,000,000 for one player.

[BoomtownHibees]

None of it? Enlighten me.

They played us in the semi of the League Cup and beat Livingston in the final

They played us in the final of the Scottish and won 1-0

[greenlex]

They played us in the semi of the League Cup and beat Livingston in the final

They played us in the final of the Scottish and won 1-0

Apologies you are correct. I’ve just done checking. Old age and all that. The sentiment is the same tho underperforming Hibs at different stages and penalty shoot out against Rangers. They are the only team to do it outside the old firm. They weren’t world beaters.