Football fans & Social Media

[Pretty Boy]

Loosely related to another conversation I've been having I watched Stephen Robinson's post match interview the other night after St Mirren lost to Kilmarnock. Robinson has seen his team go on a run of 2 wins in 13 games and he has gone from flavour of the month to fans calling for his head pretty quickly. He was asked about this pressure and all but dismissed it as the work of 'fans on social media who don't even go to games'.

I'm genuinely curious as to how big an issue this actually is in Scottish football. I've seen it said on here and on Twitter about Hibs fans as well, stuff along the lines of 'the moaners don't even go to games' and I'm just not sure it's true. Obviously in a wider footballing context it's very much something that exists. Manchester United post on social media and there are tens of thousands of engagements from people in Lagos, Seoul and Melbourne, they almost definitely make up a significantly higher percentage of the engagements than fans from Lytham, Salford and Manchester do. However in the fairly niche market that is Scottish football is the same true? I'm not convinced it is. The majority of the most active posters on a a site like this are regulars at games. Likewise there is a core of about 2 dozen people who are Hibs most vocal and active fans on Twitter and, certainly the ones I know, are regulars at Easter Road and many are also regular away travelers and active supporters of the women's team as well.

I remember Stuart Cosgrove discussing this shortly after the whole story of Rangers EBT payments and the dire state of their finances started to break. That the story started to make the mainstream media was largely due to the investigative work of Alex Thomson and the traction he was able to gain on social media through engagement with fans. Cosgrove said that the BBC Scotland sports department editorial stance at the time was basically 'don't rock the boat, it's not something real fans are bothered about, it's only a story for the online nerds'. He said there was a genuine belief that there was a clear demarcation between the fan who posted online and the fan who attended games and any crossover was incidental and minimal. He called that out as nonsense then and said it is still nonsense now. He pointed out that in the 2010s and 2020s the internet isn't the domain of anoraks sitting in their parents spare bedroom; it's an essential everyday tool that the vast majority of people use daily.

Of course there will be thousands of fans across the country who attend games who rarely or never engage with their club or fellow fans online. That's just common sense and the same common sense dictates that their opinions will be as varied as those you see online. Equally though Scottish football is a niche product. We don't have a huge global reach and there is little in the way of glamour to be had. Do we have swathes of people who are just so desperate to be part of it that they engage solely online but don't attend games. I think it would be pretty foolish to believe that and I think it's especially foolish for a manager to openly declare they believe such. I have no doubt that football managers can't be bothered with the opinions of fans, online or otherwise, and find the short termism of their job these days tiresome. Openly creating a clear line between 'real fans' and 'social media fans' is a pretty dangerous game to play though and has arguably now piled more pressure on Robinson and placed him under more scrutiny.

[Jack]

I'm actually surprised at the number [of Hibs] supporters who don't frequent the forums or social media at all. I like the forums and maybe a bit of the official Hibs Facebook page but nothing else really, it does ma heid in!

I think in your post PB you omit to mention the opposition fandans that infest where they are able on the likes of newspapers comments section and elsewhere. It really does put me off not just the page/thread but the whole platform.

Also it always surprises me how little regard some football people have for supporters "Fitbaw people ken what's going on." for example. And your thread shows up the fitbaw people in the MSM deciding and vetting what's good for us to see! To be honest for the rangers scandal I was surprised thick football reporters were delivering on a subject that was so obviously beyond their competency.

[Iain G]

PB, gest original post and really interesting.

Scottish football feels like it is a backwards place, existing outside of modern day reality, where new ideas and concepts are rejected quickly because they may rock that boat of the old boys club and /or upset the pandering to the Glasgow pantomime.

It will be interesting to see if we get the Foley investment approved, as it's just another new thing that could actually improve the game here. I feel sad that Ron passed as he seemed to genuinely want to improve the whole game and help push it all forward. A chance lost.

Scottish football needs modernising, it needs new ideas and also needs to catch up with what football looks like in the 2020's, people and life has evolved, especially post pandemic, and the engagement with the fans and their clubs is now so much more than just those who show up on a matchday and manage to sell them a pie or two.

Robinson is a dinosaur if this is his honest view and part of the problem, it's insular and will eventually collapse in on itself and die unless it changes.

[s.a.m]

I think I'd agree that, in general, prolific social media football posters are going to be 'real fans' who turn up to watch. Maybe the social media effect, if there is one, isn't the difference between who does and doesn't go to games but how opinions gain momentum and become narratives, just like with everything else. Trends and movements happened before the internet, but it makes the spread of 'takes' easier, faster and more accessible, both within and outwith a community.

I also remember a Stuart Cosgrove point from early on in the general uptake of the internet*. He was talking about the idea at the time that the internet would open up knowledge and information and truth to the world. He felt that, instead, there was a danger that lots of people would become isolated in their own information bubbles. Instead of sitting watching a whole news programme or reading a newspaper, people would click on views and stories that mirrored their own position and wouldn't select stories and opinions that didn't. Basically, creating confirmation bias on a global scale. I think this has been proven right on both current affairs and football.

Maybe Stephen Robinson's seeing the result of ****** off fans being more easily and quickly able to find and hang out with other angry fans and winding each other up, and maybe without social media it would have taken longer or have been less vicious or coordinated.


* This is how I remember the point he was making. It was a long time ago :greengrin

[Skol]

Great thread Pretty Boy

I think the fans on social media are a big issue and not representative overall. You just need to look at the reaction on here over the last couple of days. The reaction of many has left me shaking my head.

Where I differ is that I think for Hibs the vast majority are fans who go most weeks, it’s just that the internet gives them a platform to express their opinion, largely anonymously. This leads to things being said that would be less likely in a face to face setting. Albeit, I think people reading such negativity are then emboldened to state that view more vociferously.

Going back to my youth, believe it or not but Hibs were much worse than they are now. Despite that there was not the same negative feedback after every bad result.

If I were a member of the Hibs management or squad, I would need to avoid the negativity on social media as that is not helpful to anyone.

I was thinking about this yesterday and the situation around the Holy Ground which was ultimately closed to all but private members. I had made the decision a month or so before it was closed to step back from it as the debate was toxic. It has been exactly the same on the football forum these last few days (and weeks actually) and I find myself thinking maybe I should just stay away from here as well.

[Eyrie]

Another factor with social media is that it is 24/7.

in the old days we'd all have a moan in the pub after a poor game or at work on the Monday, then get on with our lives until the next match.

Now the moans continue all week on .net, Twitter or wherever which makes it appear worse, yet it's usually the same loud voices making the same negative points over and over with few dissenting opinions because most fans want get on with their lives rather than get drawn into pointless arguments with people who don't want to consider an alternative viewpoint.

And it's the same when we play well, except it's the positive points being repeated and fans avoiding pointless arguments over those.

[Carheenlea]

I'm actually surprised at the number [of Hibs] supporters who don't frequent the forums or social media at all. I like the forums and maybe a bit of the official Hibs Facebook page but nothing else really, it does ma heid in!

I think in your post PB you omit to mention the opposition fandans that infest where they are able on the likes of newspapers comments section and elsewhere. It really does put me off not just the page/thread but the whole platform.

Also it always surprises me how little regard some football people have for supporters "Fitbaw people ken what's going on." for example. And your thread shows up the fitbaw people in the MSM deciding and vetting what's good for us to see! To be honest for the rangers scandal I was surprised thick football reporters were delivering on a subject that was so obviously beyond their competency.

I’m sure I’m not alone in saying that I would frequent many football groups on Facebook, but have now left every one of them, even the Hibs ones due to the absolute drivel posted and toxicity of the groups. This is the only forum I engage with (and enjoy).

I think across the whole of Scottish Football the forums and groups are breeding grounds for the extreme to air divisive opinion on managers and players, but while those strong opinions will only start to surface after a couple of negative results or performances you can’t just brush them aside as wild opinion that’s best ignored - it’ll switch on a debate that rumbles on and grows for weeks/months until a manger rides it out (rarely) or loses his job.

During the worst of some of the “Johnson out” debate on here, I sensed that the majority of posters were on the side of change, but interestingly that wasn’t reflected at the games themselves. Many times I was expecting some anger and calls for the managers head as full time approached then the fans just grudgingly trudged out of Easter Road. It came eventually of course, but not in the ferocity of the forums.

It’s easy to sit behind your phone or laptop and shout “Montomery must go” for example, but would you consider doing that next week at Easter Road next week surrounded by fellow fans in the flesh? Unlikely unless the performances and results have become such that you’re not going to be the only one calling for change. That’s not happening inside Easter Road any time soon, but the online environment will be very different and threads on managerial scrutiny will always be on the first page.

There is definitely a differing tolerance level (on a vocal scale) from the match day attendees and the forum posters (both match attendees and not)

Robinson sounds like someone who doesn’t frequent forums and doesn’t really understand what they are all about.

[JammyDoidger]

Not sure about other clubs but in the case of ourselves we are a club that consistently underachieves, underperforms and let's our supporters down, social media is just an extra place for people to vent and get frustration off their chest, it's easy to do so and I understand why people do it, I've done it myself, is it constructive? Probably not. Likely the opposite. I tend to feel viewing a clubs social media platform and reading the comments give you a fair idea of how the wider support feel, it's just some are more vocal about it, when I do football coupons I'll have a wee browse at team line ups on twitter and you can usually get a feel about the mood of the support from viewing the comments.

[matty_f]

I think the biggest issue with social media is that it’s the extreme views that get traction - be that folk agreeing or disagreeing, so the algorithms push those tweets to the top of the queue.

It gives a skewed view on what’s relevant and even what’s actually being said. Case in point being that **** Joey Barton. Never saw him on my timeline until he shouted about women commentators, then every time I opened twitter his tweets were at the top of the “for you” section, so much so that I ended up blocking him because I refuse to give the wee prick attention.

Twitter even went to the extent of pushing his tweets through notifications to me.

Most people don’t agree with him, but the tweets you see are his, and a few verified accounts agreeing so if you didn’t know better, you’d think this was a mainstream view. Didn’t help that being controversial got him into the c***’s ****, Piers Morgan’s show, which further validated his view as mainstream/legitimate, when in reality it’s a sad wee man trying his best to be relevant and figuring out that being controversial gets you airtime.


I could go on the longbangers twitter today and post about “Monty out” with some hyperbolic nonsense to go with it and the tweet would get great numbers, but that’s not really what we’re about.

There’s some reflection of how people are thinking but you have to read it all with a pinch of salt and know that the folk who aren’t extreme probably aren’t getting seen.

[Pretty Boy]

I think the biggest issue with social media is that it’s the extreme views that get traction - be that folk agreeing or disagreeing, so the algorithms push those tweets to the top of the queue.

It gives a skewed view on what’s relevant and even what’s actually being said. Case in point being that **** Joey Barton. Never saw him on my timeline until he shouted about women commentators, then every time I opened twitter his tweets were at the top of the “for you” section, so much so that I ended up blocking him because I refuse to give the wee prick attention.

Twitter even went to the extent of pushing his tweets through notifications to me.

Most people don’t agree with him, but the tweets you see are his, and a few verified accounts agreeing so if you didn’t know better, you’d think this was a mainstream view. Didn’t help that being controversial got him into the c***’s ****, Piers Morgan’s show, which further validated his view as mainstream/legitimate, when in reality it’s a sad wee man trying his best to be relevant and figuring out that being controversial gets you airtime.


I could go on the longbangers twitter today and post about “Monty out” with some hyperbolic nonsense to go with it and the tweet would get great numbers, but that’s not really what we’re about.

There’s some reflection of how people are thinking but you have to read it all with a pinch of salt and know that the folk who aren’t extreme probably aren’t getting seen.

That's a great point.

My 'for you' on X/Twitter is full of pretty extreme right wing rhetoric and if you didn't know better you would think borderline fascism had gone mainstream now (I suppose to some extent it has but that's a whole other conversation). Part of that is my fault; I engage with it, usually slagging the mutants and grifters who post such hate but that still helps push it to the top of the pile. It does mean that the extremes get much more traction and airtime though, there's no reason that football would be any different because those extremes are what people engage with whether they are agreeing or otherwise. I suppose It's really not all that different from Jim Traynor sitting on his phone in show 15-20 years ago saying controversial things as that was what got people to pick up the phone and engage with the format.

I'm probably almost arguing with my own original post here but I think that taking things with a pinch of salt part is important. I still think that most people posting about Scottish football are real fans posting real opinions but it's arguably the most extreme version of themselves. If i was being totally honest i would say I am more forceful online with an opinion than I would be in a pub and probably even come across differently on a platform like this compared to one like Facebook or X. I'm not sure if that is just me or more widespread though.

[BoomtownHibees]

I reckon some of the biggest moaners we’ve seen on here recently don’t go to the games

[s.a.m]

Another factor with social media is that it is 24/7.

in the old days we'd all have a moan in the pub after a poor game or at work on the Monday, then get on with our lives until the next match.

Now the moans continue all week on .net, Twitter or wherever which makes it appear worse, yet it's usually the same loud voices making the same negative points over and over with few dissenting opinions because most fans want get on with their lives rather than get drawn into pointless arguments with people who don't want to consider an alternative viewpoint....




I think the biggest issue with social media is that it’s the extreme views that get traction - be that folk agreeing or disagreeing, so the algorithms push those tweets to the top of the queue.

It gives a skewed view on what’s relevant and even what’s actually being said. Case in point being that **** Joey Barton. Never saw him on my timeline until he shouted about women commentators, then every time I opened twitter his tweets were at the top of the “for you” section, so much so that I ended up blocking him because I refuse to give the wee prick attention....



I think that these are both important points: The sheer quantity of opinion and which opinions/opinionators are amplified has changed. People taking extreme positions are being handed kindling and an accelerant by social media platforms. The kind of person about whom your mum would have said, 'Ignore him. He's just an attention seeker...' are being given a platform that wasn't really available in the past. Until not long ago, if you wanted to share your views and you couldn't get published, you had to print pamphlets, climb a building in fancy dress or walk around town wearing a sandwich board.

Obviously, there's a big plus for people to be able to share information that powerful people want to hide or are scared of printing, but there's an awful lot of other folk who have nothing to say that's worth publishing, yet they're being amplified by algorithms and as clickbait purely because controversy is currency and the majority, more moderate position isn't.

[Smartie]

Not sure about other clubs but in the case of ourselves we are a club that consistently underachieves, underperforms and let's our supporters down, social media is just an extra place for people to vent and get frustration off their chest, it's easy to do so and I understand why people do it, I've done it myself, is it constructive? Probably not. Likely the opposite. I tend to feel viewing a clubs social media platform and reading the comments give you a fair idea of how the wider support feel, it's just some are more vocal about it, when I do football coupons I'll have a wee browse at team line ups on twitter and you can usually get a feel about the mood of the support from viewing the comments.

Do we REALLY consistently underachieve though?

Johnson had one full season, finished 5th and got into Europe. Going by the reaction to him you'd think he was the worst manager of all time. When he was fired this season, he still had 33 games left to turn around his admittedly poor start.

I'd say that that one things fans forums do is to propagate the perception and myth of misery and underachievement when we're maybe trundling along at the same, inconsistent level as we've always done or that our budget relative to the rest of the teams suggests we should do.

I don't expect we're alone in this, it then leads to managers finding themselves under pressure and being fired and clubs never really finding themselves with the stability that is almost always required to improve their situation.

Everyone's chasing that dopamine hit of the new manager bounce.

Re Montgomery right now - we can argue 'til the cows come home about his 442. Surely he deserves at least a couple of transfer windows to bring in his own players to play his system? Surely Jack Ross had credit in the bank to ride out his poor run after his league finishes and cup runs? Was Maloney so awful that he didn't deserve the chance to try to bring in players to play the way he wanted to play (I'd argue yes and he's the only one of these managers I've wanted sacked but I respect the opposing viewpoint tbh).

[WhileTheChief..]

I don't agree with Robinson at all.

Anyone posting online about the going's on at the smaller clubs are going to be real fans. You're not going to get anyone commenting on Arbroath that isn't an actual fan for example.

As the size of the club increases, the interest in it increases too. When you get to the top of the game, you have everyone and their dug having an opinion. There will be plenty of folk that have never been to a game in their life having their say and proclaiming their love for a club in a country they couldn't point to on a map.

For Hibs, I'd imagine most people posting online at least go to a few games a year, with the exception of those who live miles away or can't go to ER for whatever reason. For them, social media probably plays an important role in feeling connected to the club.

It's easy to dismiss anything you read online that you don't like as being by uneducated basement dwellers, but it's entirely ignorant and wrong.

Social media has brought fans closer together and collectively gives us a voice. There was a post about fans creating a narrative - that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Not a popular opinion, but imagine the outcome for Hearts after Romanov if social media wasn't a thing. Or Rangers with the EBT scandal. They would never have been kicked out the league without the ****-storm kicked up by real fans on social media.

There's a lot for Scottish football to be concerned about, but fans on forums shouldn't even be on the list of things to discuss.

[Stubbsy90+2]

Do we REALLY consistently underachieve though?

Johnson had one full season, finished 5th and got into Europe. Going by the reaction to him you'd think he was the worst manager of all time. When he was fired this season, he still had 33 games left to turn around his admittedly poor start.

I'd say that that one things fans forums do is to propagate the perception and myth of misery and underachievement when we're maybe trundling along at the same, inconsistent level as we've always done or that our budget relative to the rest of the teams suggests we should do.

I don't expect we're alone in this, it then leads to managers finding themselves under pressure and being fired and clubs never really finding themselves with the stability that is almost always required to improve their situation.

Everyone's chasing that dopamine hit of the new manager bounce.

Re Montgomery right now - we can argue 'til the cows come home about his 442. Surely he deserves at least a couple of transfer windows to bring in his own players to play his system? Surely Jack Ross had credit in the bank to ride out his poor run after his league finishes and cup runs? Was Maloney so awful that he didn't deserve the chance to try to bring in players to play the way he wanted to play (I'd argue yes and he's the only one of these managers I've wanted sacked but I respect the opposing viewpoint tbh).

I suppose you can look at LJ and say that we underachieved by losing more than we won. He managed 52 games at Hibs and there’d be 8 OF, 5 Hearts, 4 Aberdeen, and 4 euro ties where we played teams with higher budgets, so 40%, v 60% against teams with varying degrees of smaller budgets. Yet we lost 46% of games and only won 38%, so we lost a decent bit more than we ‘should’ have but more importantly, we failed to win a hell of a lot more often than we ‘should’ have. That is significantly under achieving imo.

[Smartie]

I'd also add that Robinson (or any other under fire manager) is perfectly entitled to do whatever he likes to ease pressure on himself and talk down moaning or criticism.

Maybe he believes what he says, maybe he doesn't but I don't think it really does him any good to either acknowledge or actively add to any criticism. Dismissing the criticism as irrelevant, online nonsense is a decent way of reducing that pressure imo.

I do think there are normally parallels between online and in stadium sentiments but that they don't exactly match each other. Stuff I'd highlight would be things like the fact that Lewis Stevenson has always enjoyed a special level of criticism online, whereas (save for the odd bam) he's always been a player who has been more popular with the fans in the ground. And as has been mentioned, there has always been a lag between online abuse of a manger getting louder to it becoming anything remotely tangible amongst the fans in the ground.

[JammyDoidger]

Do we REALLY consistently underachieve though?

Johnson had one full season, finished 5th and got into Europe. Going by the reaction to him you'd think he was the worst manager of all time. When he was fired this season, he still had 33 games left to turn around his admittedly poor start.

I'd say that that one things fans forums do is to propagate the perception and myth of misery and underachievement when we're maybe trundling along at the same, inconsistent level as we've always done or that our budget relative to the rest of the teams suggests we should do.

I don't expect we're alone in this, it then leads to managers finding themselves under pressure and being fired and clubs never really finding themselves with the stability that is almost always required to improve their situation.

Everyone's chasing that dopamine hit of the new manager bounce.

Re Montgomery right now - we can argue 'til the cows come home about his 442. Surely he deserves at least a couple of transfer windows to bring in his own players to play his system? Surely Jack Ross had credit in the bank to ride out his poor run after his league finishes and cup runs? Was Maloney so awful that he didn't deserve the chance to try to bring in players to play the way he wanted to play (I'd argue yes and he's the only one of these managers I've wanted sacked but I respect the opposing viewpoint tbh).

You just need to take a look at the amount of times we are on the wrong end of derby defeats, the amount of finals we have been in and how many we've actually won, some of the defeats have been brutal to the likes off St Johnstone and Ross county, even recently the last 2 years Hearts and the sheep have both got group stage football, of course we will miss out on this, we are always the nearly guys, how many times have we finished 3rd in the last 20 years?the fans feel this and have been through it all, that's bound to take its toll on any fan base. It's actually a credit to our fans for sticking by the club and having 20k fans at midweek Derby's etc when in reality the club lets us down time and time again, we keep coming back for more.

[Pretty Boy]

I'd also add that Robinson (or any other under fire manager) is perfectly entitled to do whatever he likes to ease pressure on himself and talk down moaning or criticism.

Maybe he believes what he says, maybe he doesn't but I don't think it really does him any good to either acknowledge or actively add to any criticism. Dismissing the criticism as irrelevant, online nonsense is a decent way of reducing that pressure imo.

I do think there are normally parallels between online and in stadium sentiments but that they don't exactly match each other. Stuff I'd highlight would be things like the fact that Lewis Stevenson has always enjoyed a special level of criticism online, whereas (save for the odd bam) he's always been a player who has been more popular with the fans in the ground. And as has been mentioned, there has always been a lag between online abuse of a manger getting louder to it becoming anything remotely tangible amongst the fans in the ground.

I think that's interesting and possibly comes down to perception or maybe just who you engage with outside of the internet.

A group of guys I chat with about football both in person and on WhatsApp who are all ST holders can't stand Stevenson as a player. They would have emptied him years ago and they regularly slag me about what they see as the canonisation of him on here and make accusations that the admins actively censor criticism or encourage people to shout it down. Their view is very much that he is far more of a legend online than he is in the ground.

Maybe that just reinforces a point that we all seem to be in broad agreement about; that you can't pigeonhole fans into 'social media fans' and 'real fans' as there is diffuse opinions and large crossover between both.

[LewysGot2]

The thing I don't get - and never will get - is why folk @ players and staff in posts and Tweets? I mean, what?
Even saw absolute clowns @ Rockys family yesterday to abuse him.

If that's being a Hibs fan, count me out.

[Smartie]

I think that's interesting and possibly comes down to perception or maybe just who you engage with outside of the internet.

A group of guys I chat with about football both in person and on WhatsApp who are all ST holders can't stand Stevenson as a player. They would have emptied him years ago and they regularly slag me about what they see as the canonisation of him on here and make accusations that the admins actively censor criticism or encourage people to shout it down. Their view is very much that he is far more of a legend online than he is in the ground.

Maybe that just reinforces a point that we all seem to be in broad agreement about that you can't pigeonhole fans into 'social media fans' and 'real fans'.

Very true, and it must be acknowledged that there are figures who split the fans - meaning different peoples' perceptions of situations may vary quite wildly depending on the circles in which they move.

I remember going out for a (good) few drinks after the St Mirren game towards the end of last season. Lee Johnson had pretty much endured online grief from day one but the idea that from where we there at that point that Johnson would be losing his job a handful of games into this season (even after a decent European result) would have been quite incredible given the fact that we as a group were fairly unanimous that we was doing quite well with what he had available at that point.

[matty_f]

I think that's interesting and possibly comes down to perception or maybe just who you engage with outside of the internet.

A group of guys I chat with about football both in person and on WhatsApp who are all ST holders can't stand Stevenson as a player. They would have emptied him years ago and they regularly slag me about what they see as the canonisation of him on here and make accusations that the admins actively censor criticism or encourage people to shout it down. Their view is very much that he is far more of a legend online than he is in the ground.

Maybe that just reinforces a point that we all seem to be in broad agreement about that you can't pigeonhole fans into 'social media fans' and 'real fans' as there is diffuse opinions and large crossover between both.

Obviously I’m not on the admin team here any more but I always found the accusations about censoring criticism absolutely bizarre - you only have to look at the forum to see literally hundreds, if not thousands, of criticism of virtually every aspect of the club.

I think it’s a default position. I still get it for the podcast - called out for not criticising the club or being a club mouthpiece in case we miss out on hospitality despite us NEVER having had hospitality from the club, out that we wouldn’t speak out against the club in case we miss out on interviews despite us turning down interviews in the past because of the perception that it was on the club’s terms and was a PR exercise.

Notwithstanding that we’re frequently critical of the club and team where we honestly have the opinion that it deserves criticism. I think those that shoot the loudest about admins censoring things or podcasts not criticising are the folk who read what they want to read and hear what they want to hear, and it’s not based on what’s actually written or said.

[matty_f]

The thing I don't get - and never will get - is why folk @ players and staff in posts and Tweets? I mean, what?
Even saw absolute clowns @ Rockys family yesterday to abuse him.

If that's being a Hibs fan, count me out.

Spot on.

[Pretty Boy]

The thing I don't get - and never will get - is why folk @ players and staff in posts and Tweets? I mean, what?
Even saw absolute clowns @ Rockys family yesterday to abuse him.

If that's being a Hibs fan, count me out.

100%.

People tagging players in posts demanding apologies. GTF with that. The guy made a mistake at his work, a costly one and he deserves a bit of criticism such is football but that's the online equivalent of chapping his door and shouting at him then abusing his ma into the bargain.

[LustForLeith]

I suppose it’s understandable- more people can access social media than go to a game, Hibs, Man Inited, anyone

The bigger the club the wider the reach across the globe

I agree with diamond that it’s a 24/7 thing. I tend to stay off social media after a defeat like the Hearts one as it doesn’t do me any good!

[Stubbsy90+2]

Obviously I’m not on the admin team here any more but I always found the accusations about censoring criticism absolutely bizarre - you only have to look at the forum to see literally hundreds, if not thousands, of criticism of virtually every aspect of the club.

I think it’s a default position. I still get it for the podcast - called out for not criticising the club or being a club mouthpiece in case we miss out on hospitality despite us NEVER having had hospitality from the club, out that we wouldn’t speak out against the club in case we miss out on interviews despite us turning down interviews in the past because of the perception that it was on the club’s terms and was a PR exercise.

Notwithstanding that we’re frequently critical of the club and team where we honestly have the opinion that it deserves criticism. I think those that shoot the loudest about admins censoring things or podcasts not criticising are the folk who read what they want to read and hear what they want to hear, and it’s not based on what’s actually written or said.

There’s absolutely no danger the admins on here could ever be accused of censoring criticism. Theres some posters who I’d suggest wish they would, when you get the ‘close this ****ing thread’ type posts, but the admins most certainly don’t.

[LaMotta]

I think an issue with social media is the speed at which myths can catch on and become accepted as truth.

There was a particularly vocal Hibs fan on Twitter last season who constantly posted about Jair being the worst player he had seen in a Hibs jersey. Others see that and some start to think that too despite the fact we hadnt had much evidence to say either way how good or bad he was. The view of him as a joke figure started appearing everywhere. This season has proved that view was ridiculous.

Few years back on Hibs.net during our run at end of season in playoffs and up to cup final someone posted that they thought McGinn needed dropped for the Raith Rovers playoff as he was exhausted. That view started to pop up on various threads and got repeated by different people in the run up to the game. "McGinn needs a rest" all over the match thread. Of course the manager picked McGinn and he ended up being MOM and scored our opener.

Even right now weve got a thread with people suggesting Boyle should be punted, that he's a shadow of his former self and has lost yards of pace. Thats all exaggerated hyperbole after 2 poor performances from him and the team. A few weeks ago his pace and finishing helped us to wins. Hes always been inconsistent over the years but now there is a myth that he is finished and its spreading. If Zander Clark dives the other way then its likely Boyle will have scored in a derby victory and there would be none of this chat.

[matty_f]

There’s absolutely no danger the admins on here could ever be accused of censoring criticism. Theres some posters who I’d suggest wish they would, when you get the ‘close this ****ing thread’ type posts, but the admins most certainly don’t.

You’d think, but they get it all the time.

[matty_f]

I think an issue with social media is the speed at which myths can catch on and become accepted as truth.

There was a particularly vocal Hibs fan on Twitter last season who constantly posted about Jair being the worst player he had seen in a Hibs jersey. Others see that and some start to think that too despite the fact we hadnt had much evidence to say either way how good or bad he was. The view of him as a joke figure started appearing everywhere. This season has proved that view was ridiculous.

Few years back on Hibs.net during our run at end of season in playoffs and up to cup final someone posted that they thought McGinn needed dropped for the Raith Rovers playoff as he was exhausted. That view started to pop up on various threads and got repeated by different people in the run up to the game. "McGinn needs a rest" all over the match thread. Of course the manager picked McGinn and he ended up being MOM and scored our opener.

Even right now weve got a thread with people suggesting Boyle should be punted, that he's a shadow of his former self and has lost yards of pace. Thats all exaggerated hyperbole after 2 poor performances from him and the team. A few weeks ago his pace and finishing helped us to wins. Hes always been inconsistent over the years but now there is a myth that he is finished and its spreading. If Zander Clark dives the other way then its likely Boyle will have scored in a derby victory and there would be none of this chat.

Good post - stuff becomes accepted wisdom (I think that’s the phrase) when it’s repeated often enough.

[LaMotta]

Good post - stuff becomes accepted wisdom (I think that’s the phrase) when it’s repeated often enough.

Not to take the thread off course but as a non football example I suppose that's how we ended up with Brexit.:dizzy:

[Hibee Daft]

Think its true alot of fans come across as just wanting to see hibs win regardless of anything else.

Being a hibs fan is much more than that. I think there is a big disconnect between a loud minority of fans and the the club

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Great thread Pretty Boy

I think the fans on social media are a big issue and not representative overall. You just need to look at the reaction on here over the last couple of days. The reaction of many has left me shaking my head.

Where I differ is that I think for Hibs the vast majority are fans who go most weeks, it’s just that the internet gives them a platform to express their opinion, largely anonymously. This leads to things being said that would be less likely in a face to face setting. Albeit, I think people reading such negativity are then emboldened to state that view more vociferously.

Going back to my youth, believe it or not but Hibs were much worse than they are now. Despite that there was not the same negative feedback after every bad result.

If I were a member of the Hibs management or squad, I would need to avoid the negativity on social media as that is not helpful to anyone.

I was thinking about this yesterday and the situation around the Holy Ground which was ultimately closed to all but private members. I had made the decision a month or so before it was closed to step back from it as the debate was toxic. It has been exactly the same on the football forum these last few days (and weeks actually) and I find myself thinking maybe I should just stay away from here as well.

Has “social media” in time become “anti-social” media?
Not only controversy for controversies sake but grabbing interest attention.
It’s far easier to slate someone and divide opinion into 2 camps and increased “interaction”.

Back in the day there was a yahoo user group - “the Hibs List”.
The age of innocence perhaps.

Folks tended to post under their own name. There was even a Hibs Poet - Charlie McCartan :) there were people from over the globe iirc. Fred in Oz, John “HTH” Inglis in LA, Can’t remember if Andy Downie was there in Mexico, Andy Favelli in Italy the most Scottish non-Scottish Italian who got into Hibs because of Fish.

Trolling didn’t exist, wind-up merchants I don’t think featured. There was Chris Reid’s brother to give some insights and some of the London Hibs folks - Mike, Andy, Dave, Brian, Kev if memory serves Stu in Nottingham too? And of course Stuart Crowther (RIP).

It was he that suggested I go along to the Holyrood Tavern to the London Hibs meetup. That pub as fate would have it is where I met my now wife.

The list brought folks - many away from home - together through their love of Hibs. We celebrated and commiserated together. But I don’t recall the level of vitriol and squabbling we see today. It was informative and respectful in the main.
of course there was then various incantations (Erin-Hibs, Rivals.net and now Hibs.net) don’t know how or when that eroded but when we got relegated by Dundee United I checked out for about a year.

All this before Twitter, trolling, Musk and Trump. I think now we see things and personalities (I’ll not give them acknowledgements here) that are misogynistic, racist, homophobic outright divisive and these are the voices being amplified. What’s become mainstream, the norm and apparently acceptable has influenced a lot online.

That said while not immune Hibs.net is in a far better place than the trainwreck of other teams forums. That’s credit to the folks and the admins (all volunteers). The Hibs socials however can be a bit of a Wild West scenario… when folks that engage in that energy-draining bitchfest does make you wonder when they look back on their life what they make of it all… the mind boggles.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

The thing I don't get - and never will get - is why folk @ players and staff in posts and Tweets? I mean, what?
Even saw absolute clowns @ Rockys family yesterday to abuse him.

If that's being a Hibs fan, count me out.

this is what the (anti) social media platforms have allowed them to become. Antagonism fuels arguments, divides rather than unites people around a consensus - polarisation just like we’ve see in politics. All to drive revenues. Be careful who your idols are kids….

[Smartie]

Has “social media” in time become “anti-social” media?
Not only controversy for controversies sake but grabbing interest attention.
It’s far easier to slate someone and divide opinion into 2 camps and increased “interaction”.

Back in the day there was a yahoo user group - “the Hibs List”.
The age of innocence perhaps.

Folks tended to post under their own name. There was even a Hibs Poet - Charlie McCartan :) there were people from over the globe iirc. Fred in Oz, John “HTH” Inglis in LA, Can’t remember if Andy Downie was there in Mexico, Andy Favelli in Italy the most Scottish non-Scottish Italian who got into Hibs because of Fish.

Trolling didn’t exist, wind-up merchants I don’t think featured. There was Chris Reid’s brother to give some insights and some of the London Hibs folks - Mike, Andy, Dave, Brian, Kev if memory serves Stu in Nottingham too? And of course Stuart Crowther (RIP).

It was he that suggested I go along to the Holyrood Tavern to the London Hibs meetup. That pub as fate would have it is where I met my now wife.

The list brought folks - many away from home - together through their love of Hibs. We celebrated and commiserated together. But I don’t recall the level of vitriol and squabbling we see today. It was informative and respectful in the main.
of course there was then various incantations (Erin-Hibs, Rivals.net and now Hibs.net) don’t know how or when that eroded but when we got relegated by Dundee United I checked out for about a year.

All this before Twitter, trolling, Musk and Trump. I think now we see things and personalities (I’ll not give them acknowledgements here) that are misogynistic, racist, homophobic outright divisive and these are the voices being amplified. What’s become mainstream, the norm and apparently acceptable has influenced a lot online.

That said while not immune Hibs.net is in a far better place than the trainwreck of other teams forums. That’s credit to the folks and the admins (all volunteers). The Hibs socials however can be a bit of a Wild West scenario… when folks that engage in that energy-draining bitchfest does make you wonder when they look back on their life what they make of it all… the mind boggles.

Fair points but one thing I would argue is that whilst you have to sidestep squabbling, trolling and all sorts there is still actually a lot of decent debate being had by decent posters throughout this site and others.

And I have a fairly high tolerance level for folk posting whilst hurting and for hyperbole. It can be quite hard when communicating through short bursts of text to understand exactly where someone might be coming from (the whole % of communication normally being non-verbal etc). The only thing I object to is personal abuse and again, you just need to know to walk away when someone is starting to make something personal.


Whilst social media has it's problems I still think we need to be careful demonising all of it and should still acknowledge the many good things that can come from it.

Like alcohol, gambling and so many other pursuits I think there needs to be a bit of an understanding of the damage that can arise from it's misuse.

[matty_f]

Fair points but one thing I would argue is that whilst you have to sidestep squabbling, trolling and all sorts there is still actually a lot of decent debate being had by decent posters throughout this site and others.

And I have a fairly high tolerance level for folk posting whilst hurting and for hyperbole. It can be quite hard when communicating through short bursts of text to understand exactly where someone might be coming from (the whole % of communication normally being non-verbal etc). The only thing I object to is personal abuse and again, you just need to know to walk away when someone is starting to make something personal.


Whilst social media has it's problems I still think we need to be careful demonising all of it and should still acknowledge the many good things that can come from it.

Like alcohol, gambling and so many other pursuits I think there needs to be a bit of an understanding of the damage that can arise from it's misuse.

Really good post as well, along with a number of them on this thread.

[hibsbollah]

I’m sure I’m not alone in saying that I would frequent many football groups on Facebook, but have now left every one of them, even the Hibs ones due to the absolute drivel posted and toxicity of the groups. This is the only forum I engage with (and enjoy).

I think across the whole of Scottish Football the forums and groups are breeding grounds for the extreme to air divisive opinion on managers and players, but while those strong opinions will only start to surface after a couple of negative results or performances you can’t just brush them aside as wild opinion that’s best ignored - it’ll switch on a debate that rumbles on and grows for weeks/months until a manger rides it out (rarely) or loses his job.

During the worst of some of the “Johnson out” debate on here, I sensed that the majority of posters were on the side of change, but interestingly that wasn’t reflected at the games themselves. Many times I was expecting some anger and calls for the managers head as full time approached then the fans just grudgingly trudged out of Easter Road. It came eventually of course, but not in the ferocity of the forums.

It’s easy to sit behind your phone or laptop and shout “Montomery must go” for example, but would you consider doing that next week at Easter Road next week surrounded by fellow fans in the flesh? Unlikely unless the performances and results have become such that you’re not going to be the only one calling for change. That’s not happening inside Easter Road any time soon, but the online environment will be very different and threads on managerial scrutiny will always be on the first page.

There is definitely a differing tolerance level (on a vocal scale) from the match day attendees and the forum posters (both match attendees and not)

Robinson sounds like someone who doesn’t frequent forums and doesn’t really understand what they are all about.

There are some interesting comments on this thread about a range of things, but in relation to Stephen Robinson i really think he was using ‘guys on social media who don’t even attend games’ as a synonym for ‘folk who disagree with me’. He’s just using a stereotype as a lazy way of deflecting criticism, rather than offering a sensible critique that we have to disect too much.

[B.H.F.C]

Funnily enough, in the case of Stephen Robinson, he wouldn’t have had any issue with social media when he was getting universally praised a couple of months back. Just becomes an irrelevance when the criticism comes.

[hibstag]

Social media can provide some laughs from the utter fandans though this week we have had the amateur weathermen claiming to have driven the A9 being faced with pictures of the A9 at the slochd...
An exclusive reveal about an obscure anti Catholic policy where a new signing must wear long sleeves whilst being unveiled in short sleeves

[ancient hibee]

This is the only social media I’m on so I don’t know how typical it is. I look on it as somewhere to find amusement,sometimes to get useful information and for an oldie like me to chat about the old days.It never has any influence in how I feel about the club .
I think posters think that Hibs.net is more important than it actually is. Of the 8 people who sit around me at Easter Road,none of them close friends and of all ages,not one has heard of Hibs.net.All of us have as varied opinions on what goes on at the club as you find on here.
Regarding the Robinson quote does anyone reading this think that people who have not done the job that they do/did knows more about it than they do.That doesn’t stop us all having opinions about what we see.I was fortunate enough to eavesdrop Eddie Turnbull being cornered by a journalist at Easter Road. He was questioned about the barracking that John Hazel got. “Son” says Eddie”they used to boo me when I was a player. They knew f*** all about football then and they know f*** all about it now”.

[greenlex]

For as long as I can remember there have been armchair fans of clubs who rarely if ever venture to a game. We all know them. At workplaces all over the country and beyond they are there giving their tupoenceworth and in reality they would struggle to tell what colour their teams play in and definitely would struggle to find the ground if they had sat nav. Social media has magnified all that. Robinson is most likely on the money but it’s also a convenient deflection too.
When the majority of fans in the stands react negatively over a sustained period however right or wrong they are the owners or custodians act. Mostly far too early than need be. We’ve seen this at Hibs a fair bit.

[Bridge hibs]

This is the only social media I’m on so I don’t know how typical it is. I look on it as somewhere to find amusement,sometimes to get useful information and for an oldie like me to chat about the old days.It never has any influence in how I feel about the club .
I think posters think that Hibs.net is more important than it actually is. Of the 8 people who sit around me at Easter Road,none of them close friends and of all ages,not one has heard of Hibs.net.All of us have as varied opinions on what goes on at the club as you find on here.
Regarding the Robinson quote does anyone reading this think that people who have not done the job that they do/did knows more about it than they do.That doesn’t stop us all having opinions about what we see.I was fortunate enough to eavesdrop Eddie Turnbull being cornered by a journalist at Easter Road. He was questioned about the barracking that John Hazel got. “Son” says Eddie”they used to boo me when I was a player. They knew f*** all about football then and they know f*** all about it now”.I suppose it depends on what you want from social platforms, I know plenty hibs fans who are aware of hibs.net although in previous conversations I dont think any mentioned if they post here but I know a few guys who post on Pie n Bovril as seemingly interaction and banter with other teams fans happens more often than on here

I enjoy reading threads on here, some are nonsense but in amongst that there are some good threads and for someone who doesnt buy newspapers or avoids twitter or whatever its called then Im happy to get my hibs fix here

I enjoy various pod casts on you tube and particularly the Long Bangers ones because as a non pub goer it reminds me of my days in the boozer chatting all things hibs with my mates and the various differing of opinions offered

[truehibernian]

This is the only social media I’m on so I don’t know how typical it is. I look on it as somewhere to find amusement,sometimes to get useful information and for an oldie like me to chat about the old days.It never has any influence in how I feel about the club .
I think posters think that Hibs.net is more important than it actually is. Of the 8 people who sit around me at Easter Road,none of them close friends and of all ages,not one has heard of Hibs.net.All of us have as varied opinions on what goes on at the club as you find on here.
Regarding the Robinson quote does anyone reading this think that people who have not done the job that they do/did knows more about it than they do.That doesn’t stop us all having opinions about what we see.I was fortunate enough to eavesdrop Eddie Turnbull being cornered by a journalist at Easter Road. He was questioned about the barracking that John Hazel got. “Son” says Eddie”they used to boo me when I was a player. They knew f*** all about football then and they know f*** all about it now”.

I used to bump into Eddie regularly in Inverleith Park when he was going for his wee walks in his later years and you’ve nailed him perfectly 👍 even now god rest his soul he’d offer far more insight (and foresight) into Scottish football - I absolutely loved listening to him talk football, could have listened to him all day long.

[The dalmeny]

He was questioned about the barracking that John Hazel got. “Son” says Eddie”they used to boo me when I was a player. They knew f*** all about football then and they know f*** all about it now”.

I don't think this is an uncommon view amongst footballers

[LaMotta]

I don't go on Facebook very often now ( I have no interest in seeing fallen men and their families sitting on Christmas Eve in matching pyjamas), but just had a quick scroll through and came across some of the threads and comments on the Hibs supporters group over the last few days since the derby. There is no doubt Facebook is the worst of the worst for ridiculous, uninformed, exaggerated nonsense from the type of people that Eddie Turnbull was alluding to. :cb

[overdrive]

I don't think this is an uncommon view amongst footballers

The thing is with criticism of specific players is you don’t know what they are being told to do. Fair enough if it is a misplaced pass or losing their man but sometimes stuff they are getting pelters for is stuff the manager is telling them to do.

Think Joe Newell made reference to it on one of the podcasts recently. He was getting it tight for either playing it short, playing it long or playing it safe (I cant remember which) but what he said was that was the specific instruction he received from whichever manager it was at the time and he’d have been in bother if he didn’t do that.

[VoltaireHibs]

The thing is with criticism of specific players is you don’t know what they are being told to do. Fair enough if it is a misplaced pass or losing their man but sometimes stuff they are getting pelters for is stuff the manager is telling them to do.

Think Joe Newell made reference to it on one of the podcasts recently. He was getting it tight for either playing it short, playing it long or playing it safe (I cant remember which) but what he said was that was the specific instruction he received from whichever manager it was at the time and he’d have been in bother if he didn’t do that.

This is a great point when it comes to players getting pelters for their actions. The fans have no idea what the players have been told to go out and do. Sometimes it's obvious enough, but when you take into account all the moving parts and tactics of a football team then, yeah, Eddie Turnbull is correct, we don't have a clue. That's before you get to a player maybe being asked to watch out for a specific opposition player, close them down etc.

With regards to social media, the problem with the internet is that it has no editor. You buy a newspaper and everything has been checked and is aligned with that paper's general viewpoint. The internet is the wild west. The only real editor it has is an algorithm that is voraciously hunting for eyeballs, that's it. It is utterly devoid of humanity so it should be no surprise that it begins to reflect a place that seems devoid of humanity, that's the way it has been built - it's algorithmic evolution in action, and it ain't pretty.

[McHibby]

There are some really good points on here.

As others have mentioned, the ability to react instantly, rather than having a breather whilst walking to the pub for a pint after the match or on the bus home, does contribute to more impassioned and sometimes provocative comments.

But that doesn't mean they aren't 'real' fans or that their opinions don't matter. Maybe it's easier for clubs and the media to try and dismiss criticism aired online by trying to manufacture a division between fan group.

I would also say I think there is a distinction between the types of social media. With Twitter, it's pretty much no holds barred. Not only can the most ridiculous and abusive comments be made about players, staff etc the @ ensures those people will actually see them*. However with forums like Hibs.net, there are rules about what language is and isn't acceptable. And we aren't exactly shy to call people out when they go too far.

*EDIT - and it's not always the case that players etc can simply delete their accounts because of contractual and sponsorship commitments.