Hibs penalty

[roo62]

The handball stopped a goalscoring opportunity in my opinion. Why was that not a red card and why is no one talking about it.

[Carheenlea]

The handball stopped a goalscoring opportunity in my opinion. Why was that not a red card and why is no one talking about it.

Thought similar at the time - effectively a save.

[Tyler Durden]

The handball stopped a goalscoring opportunity in my opinion. Why was that not a red card and why is no one talking about it.

Was it a deliberate handball?

If not then it’s not a red

[Kato]

Was it a deliberate handball?

If not then it’s not a redWhy is his hand up?

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[Booked4Being-Ugly]

Was it a deliberate handball?

If not then it’s not a red

It was deliberate.

[Trinity Hibee]

No way it was deliberate. Hand out from body but claiming it was deliberate is just ridiculous

[where'stheslope]

No way it was deliberate. Hand out from body but claiming it was deliberate is just ridiculous
Clutching at straws time i'm afraid, with the chances we created we should have got something from the game, but we seem inept in front of goal???

[Golden Bear]

No way it was deliberate. Hand out from body but claiming it was deliberate is just ridiculous

It was definitely deliberate.

[Davy Mac]

Red card all day long, deliberate and last man, but ken what, we still wouldn't have beaten them.

Had 45+ years of this pish, getting a bit of fed up of these lucky barstewards and watching weak Hibs teams that are ganton.

[Alan62]

Looked deliberate. Why VAR felt the need to check it is an absolute mystery. Clear penalty and probably also a red card.


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[wookie70]

Not sure on the rule and couldn't find the correct scenario. I thought it was a red at the game as I think the shot was likely to go in and the position of teh arm was not natural. Hard to say though without reading the rules and it was one where you could see a referee saying it wasn't deliberate. The shot was far too slow coming in and summed up our night where we did everything at a snail's pace

[Danderhall Hibs]

Looked deliberate. Why VAR felt the need to check it is an absolute mystery. Clear penalty and probably also a red card.


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VAR checks every goal and penalty decision. Not clear on why it wasn’t a red card though.

[BoomtownHibees]

Not sure on the rule and couldn't find the correct scenario. I thought it was a red at the game as I think the shot was likely to go in and the position of teh arm was not natural. Hard to say though without reading the rules and it was one where you could see a referee saying it wasn't deliberate. The shot was far too slow coming in and summed up our night where we did everything at a snail's pace

"Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence, the player is sent off wherever the offence occurs (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)."

[McGruber]

It doesn't matter if it was deliberate, red card either way - stopped the goalscoring chance - and it was clearly going in.
The other 2 handballs in the game were the Rocky penalty and Shankland for his goal. We get *** all from VAR/officials as per usual.
(Saying that we deserved nothing because we were rubbish, and Rocky should be going through him instead of letting himself be fouled)

[roo62]

"Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence, the player is sent off wherever the offence occurs (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)."
Thanks Boomtown that is what I thought but wasn't sure. I am sure if it was at the other end Boyd and Naismith would have been all over it at half time. Clutching a wee bit but we get very little breaks against them

[Steve-O]

Was it a deliberate handball?

If not then it’s not a red

Doesn’t matter if deliberate…and…probably was deliberate!

[Trinity Hibee]

Doesn’t matter if deliberate…and…probably was deliberate!

So any handball in the box with a shot at goal is a red card?

[Steve-O]

So any handball in the box with a shot at goal is a red card?

If it is stopping a goal, which in my view it was, yes.

[LaMotta]

Was it a deliberate handball?

If not then it’s not a red

Misunderstanding of word deliberate. It has to be a deliberate hand movement to be a foul. So it was clearly deliberate.

If it stopped a goal it should have been a red - havent seen it so dont know that.

[JammyDoidger]

As clear a red card as you'll ever see. But again with John Beaton in charge im surprised he even gave us the penalty.

[LaMotta]

If it is stopping a goal, which in my view it was, yes.

:agree:

[Trinity Hibee]

If it is stopping a goal, which in my view it was, yes.

You’d have red card all the time in that case which you very rarely see. Is the double jeopardy rule still in force?

[BoomtownHibees]

You’d have red card all the time in that case which you very rarely see. Is the double jeopardy rule still in force?

Not for handballs

[Steve-O]

You’d have red card all the time in that case which you very rarely see. Is the double jeopardy rule still in force?

Not all shots are very clearly on target. This one was and Clark appeared to be diving the wrong way

[BoomtownHibees]

Not all shots are very clearly on target. This one was and Clark appeared to be diving the wrong way

I saw it back at half time and think Clark would have saved the shot but still think it should have been a red card

[wookie70]

"Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence, the player is sent off wherever the offence occurs (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)."

Cheers, That was what I thought at the game and in the replay it looks a goal if the hand doesn't stop it. Fairly clear red then and yet again VAR pretty much denies us every decision it could whilst leaning the way of the other side.

[1875Sean]

I saw it back at half time and think Clark would have saved the shot but still think it should have been a red card

If you think Clark is going to save it then it can’t be a red, if it’s on the line or he’s closer to the goal I think it’s a red but as it’s not clear it was going in then I think that saves him, Clark is diving the same way and would have had a chance to stop it

[BoomtownHibees]

If you think Clark is going to save it then it can’t be a red, if it’s on the line or he’s closer to the goal I think it’s a red but as it’s not clear it was going in then I think that saves him, Clark is diving the same way and would have had a chance to stop it

The ref isn’t there to decide if the goalie is going to save it or no. The defender has denied a clear goal-scoring opportunity so should have been off

[givescotlandfreedom]

I thought that too. It's going in so the Merrick saves it and keeps it out. We went from a definite goal to a chance of scoring which we missed.

[Tyler Durden]

Misunderstanding of word deliberate. It has to be a deliberate hand movement to be a foul. So it was clearly deliberate.

If it stopped a goal it should have been a red - havent seen it so dont know that.

It doesn’t have to be deliberate handball to be a penalty. If he deliberately tries to handle it, it’s a red. If the ref feels he’s trying to legally block the shot and challenge for the ball it can be a yellow, goal scoring chance or not.

[flash]

I saw it back at half time and think Clark would have saved the shot but still think it should have been a red card

Clark was diving low and the shot was rising. He was never saving it.

It's as clear a red as you can get if the rule stated on here is correct.

[Tyler Durden]

"Where a player denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by a handball offence, the player is sent off wherever the offence occurs (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)."

The rules also state

The following must be considered:
distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders

So Beaton would consider how far out Rowles was and the way he challenges.

It’s not a clear cut howler IMO

[Kato]

The rules also state

The following must be considered:
distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders

So Beaton would consider how far out Rowles was and the way he challenges.

It’s not a clear cut howler IMO...but its a red card though.

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[Carheenlea]

The rules also state

The following must be considered:
distance between the offence and the goal
general direction of the play
likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
location and number of defenders

So Beaton would consider how far out Rowles was and the way he challenges.

It’s not a clear cut howler IMO

The only likelihood had it not been saved by the defender was of Hearts heading back up the park to take a kick off 1-0 down.

[Tyler Durden]

To consider some relevant other examples.

Cristian Romero in the Arsenal vs Spurs 2-2 game this season. He handballed it almost on the goal line. Wasn’t deliberate and there was another defender on the line who maybe could stop a goal. He got a yellow

St Mirren at home to Rangers. Ryan Strain handballs it to knock the ball out of the path of the Rangers player who otherwise would have a tap in. That is denying a goal scoring opportunity and he’s sent off

Blocking a shot with a handball is not necessarily a certain red card.

[flash]

To consider some relevant other examples.

Cristian Romero in the Arsenal vs Spurs 2-2 game this season. He handballed it almost on the goal line. Wasn’t deliberate and there was another defender on the line who maybe could stop a goal. He got a yellow

St Mirren at home to Rangers. Ryan Strain handballs it to knock the ball out of the path of the Rangers player who otherwise would have a tap in. That is denying a goal scoring opportunity and he’s sent off

Blocking a shot with a handball is not necessarily a certain red card.

Last night's one was though.

[lapsedhibee]

To consider some relevant other examples.

Cristian Romero in the Arsenal vs Spurs 2-2 game this season. He handballed it almost on the goal line. Wasn’t deliberate and there was another defender on the line who maybe could stop a goal. He got a yellow

St Mirren at home to Rangers. Ryan Strain handballs it to knock the ball out of the path of the Rangers player who otherwise would have a tap in. That is denying a goal scoring opportunity and he's sent off.

Blocking a shot with a handball is not necessarily a certain red card.

Not sure your chosen examples make your point.

Ryan Strain handballs it to knock the ball out of the path of the Rangers player who otherwise would have a tap in. That is denying a goal scoring opportunity to Rangers and he's sent off.

[Gettin' Auld]

This as a clear red card all day long. His arm was raised before he fell.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1740105283307798630

[Tyler Durden]

Last night's one was though.

Seeing it back again now I would agree. Looks like Clark diving out the way an f ball is heading into the net centrally

I’m just playing devils advocate that it’s not necessarily always a red

[Stubbsy90+2]

Not necessarily convinced it was going in, but that’s really to do with the angles I’ve seen, but it’s a red all day imo.

Double jeopardy, as far as I’m aware, comes into play if you make a genuine attempt to legally play the ball. That wasn’t the case when your arms are at full stretch above your head.

[LaMotta]

It doesn’t have to be deliberate handball to be a penalty. If he deliberately tries to handle it, it’s a red. If the ref feels he’s trying to legally block the shot and challenge for the ball it can be a yellow, goal scoring chance or not.

Mate thats not right- you are not understanding that if it is a hand ball then it must be "deliberate" to be a foul. Deliberate means a deliberate unnatural movement of the hand as deemed by officials.

If you mean intentional ( which I think you do?l) then that still has no bearing - if a player stops a goal with his hand its should be a red regardless of intent to hand. And of course almost no handball fouls are intentional. Only ones that are are incidents like Suarez v Ghana in 2012 world cup quarter- but intentional handballs are so rare.

[Tyler Durden]

Mate thats not right- you are not understanding that if it is a hand ball then it must be "deliberate" to be a foul. Deliberate means a deliberate unnatural movement of the hand as deemed by officials.

If you mean intentional ( which I think you do?l) then that still has no bearing - if a player stops a goal with his hand its should be a red regardless of intent to hand. And of course almost no handball fouls are intentional. Only ones that are are incidents like Suarez v Ghana in 2012 world cup quarter- but intentional handballs are so rare.

Most people would view deliberate and intentional as one and the same. I really can't reconcile your statements that a handball must be deliberate to be a foul. And yet intentional handballs are so rare???

Most handballs that are awarded these days are for subjective calls where the player is deemed to have his arm in an unnatural position. Rocky last night for example - it's not deliberate or intentional!

The part in bold is the point I was making (perhaps not very well). Up until reviewing again this morning, I didn't feel that applied to Rowles handball. I now do think he stopped a goal with his hand and it should have been a red.

[LaMotta]

Most people would view deliberate and intentional as one and the same. I really can't reconcile your statements that a handball must be deliberate to be a foul. And yet intentional handballs are so rare???

Most handballs that are awarded these days are for subjective calls where the player is deemed to have his arm in an unnatural position. Rocky last night for example - it's not deliberate or intentional!

The part in bold is the point I was making (perhaps not very well). Up until reviewing again this morning, I didn't feel that applied to Rowles handball. I now do think he stopped a goal with his hand and it should have been a red.

The problem is the interpretation of the word deliberate. It has been in the laws of the game for ever and didn't always mean intentional (even though like you I think they mean the same thing).

Explained here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4524354.stm

So both Rocky and Rowes handballs were deliberate as per the laws of the game - even if neither actually meant to handle the ball( which clearly they didnt)

A red card should only be produced if handball stops a goalscoring opportunity. A player could intentionally catch the ball on the half way line - no red, but unintentionally block a goalbound shot ( see Rocky at Tynie last year) and he got a red.

Last nights was no different to Rocky's last year but only one is a red. When will we ever get a bit of luck in a derby?

[Stokesy's on fire]

Its a red card nothing to debate about its a red

[Tyler Durden]

The problem is the interpretation of the word deliberate. It has been in the laws of the game for ever and didn't always mean intentional (even though like you I think they mean the same thing).

Explained here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4524354.stm

So both Rocky and Rowes handballs were deliberate as per the laws of the game - even if neither actually meant to handle the ball( which clearly they didnt)

A red card should only be produced if handball stops a goalscoring opportunity. A player could intentionally catch the ball on the half way line - no red, but unintentionally block a goalbound shot ( see Rocky at Tynie last year) and he got a red.

Last nights was no different to Rocky's last year but only one is a red. When will we ever get a bit of luck in a derby?

Ok - I get you. Think we're on the same page.

Rocky only got a yellow for that though. So for once, the refs were pretty consistent.

[LaMotta]

Ok - I get you. Think we're on the same page.

Rocky only got a yellow for that though. So for once, the refs were pretty consistent.

:aok:

Oops thought rocky was sent off last year you are right was only a yellow.

[McGruber]

Ok - I get you. Think we're on the same page.

Rocky only got a yellow for that though. So for once, the refs were pretty consistent.

With the Rocky one I think the decision was based on they couldnt tell if the shot was on target. Last night was a red and pretty clear cut.
Sour grapes coming out now but even the Shankland goal would have been reviewed down south and have been lucky to have stood. They would be looking at it to see if the ball came off Shamklands hand and gave him an advantage - which it did. Not to mention he's not looked at the ball into him and jummped into the man.
Sour grapes aside, wish we had a player that did the same and the finish is top quality... not to mention weak as piss defending from Rocky irrespective of what Shankland does.

[Tyler Durden]

With the Rocky one I think the decision was based on they couldnt tell if the shot was on target. Last night was a red and pretty clear cut.
Sour grapes coming out now but even the Shankland goal would have been reviewed down south and have been lucky to have stood. They would be looking at it to see if the ball came off Shamklands hand and gave him an advantage - which it did. Not to mention he's not looked at the ball into him and jummped into the man.
Sour grapes aside, wish we had a player that did the same and the finish is top quality... not to mention weak as piss defending from Rocky irrespective of what Shankland does.

Yeah. Certainly for our penalty, you'd expect the VAR to intervene and ask the ref to consider a red card. I didn't think so at the time but with the benefit of the replays, the ball is going in the net and Rowles' hand is way up outside his body.

We just don't seem to get any breaks from these refs.

[Greenbeard]

Huge difference between the consequences of the two penalty incidents.
For Rocky's, his glancing handball is of no significance to the passage of play. There is no disadvantage to them and no advantage to us. The flight of the ball hardly changed.
For our penalty, a goal was very likely prevented. The passage of play was significantly affected. Huge gain for them, huge disadvantage for us. A penalty and a yellow were insufficient compensation to us and punishment to them. Should have been a red card. I know the degree of significance of a handball in the box on the passage of play isn't in the rules but maybe it should be.

[GreenCastle]

This as a clear red card all day long. His arm was raised before he fell.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1740105283307798630

100% should be a red.

Thought it at the time and the replay shows it’s going in and it’s clearing a goal scoring opportunity as his arm is out to make himself as big as possible.

Add in the non corner 2nd half and some other dodgy decisions and Beaton was again awful and another example of a useless Scottish official ruining a big game.

[Speedy]

Huge difference between the consequences of the two penalty incidents.
For Rocky's, his glancing handball is of no significance to the passage of play. There is no disadvantage to them and no advantage to us. The flight of the ball hardly changed.
For our penalty, a goal was very likely prevented. The passage of play was significantly affected. Huge gain for them, huge disadvantage for us. A penalty and a yellow were insufficient compensation to us and punishment to them. Should have been a red card. I know the degree of significance of a handball in the box on the passage of play isn't in the rules but maybe it should be.

Watching the highlights, I'm not convinced Rocky's should have been a penalty. He couldn't have brought his arm down when the ball approached him because there was a Hearts player in the road.

[GreenCastle]

Watching the highlights, I'm not convinced Rocky's should have been a penalty. He couldn't have brought his arm down when the ball approached him because there was a Hearts player in the road.

Hibs didn’t get a penalty at Ibrox for worse when ball landed on Rangers player arm.

Rocky should know better though - don’t even give VAR or the ref a chance to have a look at it.

[sh00byd00]

A lot of straw clutching going on in here. Not gonna debate if it should have been a red or not, but the fact is, we missed the penalty and even them having 20 men on the park doesn't take away from the fact a penalty is still a 1v1, and we bottled it as per usual. Going 1-0 up changes a lot in a game of football, and we failed to do (as did they initially), but we still had the opportunity ourselves.

It's football, man. No conspiracies against the ref to be had. Seen a lot worse going against teams we have won against.

[JimBHibees]

A lot of straw clutching going on in here. Not gonna debate if it should have been a red or not, but the fact is, we missed the penalty and even them having 20 men on the park doesn't take away from the fact a penalty is still a 1v1, and we bottled it as per usual. Going 1-0 up changes a lot in a game of football, and we failed to do (as did they initially), but we still had the opportunity ourselves.

It's football, man. No conspiracies against the ref to be had. Seen a lot worse going against teams we have won against.

Name a meaningful decision Beaton has ever given to Hibs.

[Mcbizz1998]

I’m glad it wasn’t a red - we still would have found a way to lose and it would have made last night even more embarrassing.

[MKHIBEE]

Name a meaningful decision Beaton has ever given to Hibs.

A penalty last night?

[Scouse Hibee]

Never thought it should have been a red card when at the game, now I have seen the replays I’m not so sure.

[JimBHibees]

A penalty last night?

Not sure even he couldn't give that.

[LaMotta]

Name a meaningful decision Beaton has ever given to Hibs.

Sent off Ryan Jack (wrongly) at Ibrox in our 3-2 win under Lennon. https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/1433312/rangers-ryan-jack-anthony-stokes-hibs-hearts/

I can think of plenty of decisions that have gone against us with him though.

[lyonhibs]

No way it was deliberate. Hand out from body but claiming it was deliberate is just ridiculous

Yup. It wasn't a Luis Suárez vs Ghana special.

[Argylehibby]

To consider some relevant other examples.

Cristian Romero in the Arsenal vs Spurs 2-2 game this season. He handballed it almost on the goal line. Wasn’t deliberate and there was another defender on the line who maybe could stop a goal. He got a yellow

St Mirren at home to Rangers. Ryan Strain handballs it to knock the ball out of the path of the Rangers player who otherwise would have a tap in. That is denying a goal scoring opportunity and he’s sent off

Blocking a shot with a handball is not necessarily a certain red card.

I think the other example is McKirdy v Aberdeen where defender handled it close to the line. VAR and ref couldn’t be 100% certain the shot wasn’t going in so it was a penalty and a yellow. Same applies here if there is any doubt the balls going in then it’s a yellow. personally I think it was going in but could the keeper have adjusted and got a hand to it? That question unless the answer is 100% no means it’s a yellow card.

[Kato]

I think the other example is McKirdy v Aberdeen where defender handled it close to the line. VAR and ref couldn’t be 100% certain the shot wasn’t going in so it was a penalty and a yellow. Same applies here if there is any doubt the balls going in then it’s a yellow. personally I think it was going in but could the keeper have adjusted and got a hand to it? That question unless the answer is 100% no means it’s a yellow card.The rules don't mention whether the ball is going in or not, only that if the handball stops a goalscoring opportunity.

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[Argylehibby]

The difference is that once the shot is taken the “opportunity” part is over. Vente can’t change what he’s done so it’s no longer an opportunity to score and we wait and see if the action taken (the shot) goes in or doesn’t. If it’s going in then the player has stopped a goal rather than a goal scoring opportunity and is sent off. If the ball isn’t going in then he’s not stopped a goal so it’s a yellow.

Hope that makes sense.