Would Scottish football become better or worse without the old firm ?

[Donegal Hibby]

I was listening to a podcast lately were a English journalist said he'd fear the worse for Scottish football if the uglies ever left to go to England, while this might never happen , what if it did ? . Financially I think most clubs would lose a lot of money without them on sky and gate money etc .

Though I was looking at who would have won the league , SC and LC without them since 2014/ 15 season onwards . Taking who finished 3rd and who got to the finals against them as winners .

League = Aberdeen 5 , Hibs , hertz ,killie , Motherwell 1 each .

SC= hertz 3 , Inverness 2 , Aberdeen , Hibs , St Johnstone, Motherwell 1each .

LC = Aberdeen 2 , Hibs , Dundee Utd, Ross county , St johnstone , Motherwell 1 each . ( two cup finals old firm ) .

I think this is fairly accurate though there could be a mistake somewhere . It's fairly competitive with alot of different winners for all the silverware . Would our league maybe thrive and become better with it being more competitive ? Could a league reconstruction if we lost the old firm with teams not playing each other as much be a good thing too ? . Abit of fantasy stuff though just wondering what other posters views were if the old firm left Scottish football ? .

[Kato]

"If".

Not going to happen ever.

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[Centre Hawf]

We may lose money which the bean counters across the league would hate and it would look bad on some graph to present to the various board members and owners. But in the grandscheme of things we'd likely all lose the same amount, from a sporting perspective it makes no real difference. However I can imagine for someone like Livi, Killie, and St Johnstone it may be a big deal to lose out on potentially selling out your ground 5/6 times a season.

But if you asked me I'd get rid of the two arse cheeks in a second and move on without them. But I doubt it will ever happen sadly, the English league won't take them into the Premier League instantly and they both wouldn't fancy their chances of having to start, and be stuck in, the Championship. That's even if they're allowed to start there.

[Donegal Hibby]

"If".

Not going to happen ever.

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It probably won't though I think that at some point the ' super League ' attempt will be tried again . . Imo the bigger clubs are becoming more powerful and richer which develops into them becoming more greedy for more money . The thread was basically asking fans like yourself do you think our league would become worse without the revenue the old firm generate or would it get better without them .

[wookie70]

Better in all ways. Competition with quite a few teams able to win the league would be the major benefit and I think more fans would gravitate to their nearest clubs. I think attendances would go up too and we could more easily have a larger top league. No other league would be stupid enough to have them and I doubt if tehre was some sort of European League that both would get an invite so it will never happen, mores the pity

[leithsansiro]

"Worse off" is a very subjective position.
Financially, I think there's no doubt that every club would be worse off, as the likely reduced income from TV rights would be significant. Sponsorship would be impacted as there would be less eyeballs on the product.

However, from a sporting perspective, it'd be much, much better. More clubs would have a realistic chance of winning things, and I think that fans would watch that. Let's face it, a cup final or a league title decider between Aberdeen and Hibs, or Hearts and Motherwell, or whoever else, is much more intriguing. The difficulty is that the standard of players we have would drop, as clubs would have to cut wage bills to accommodate the financial burden. A greater range of clubs would have potential access to Europe though and the income that can bring.

Ultimately, what I think we'd end up with is a more competitive league, played in front of more fans in stadiums, though watching a inferior product on the pitch.

I wonder if longer term, TV interest and sponsorship would pick up again if the league was viewed as more competitive. Even though there would always be "top teams", likely ourselves, Hearts and Aberdeen, the distance to the others wouldn't be as insurmountable as it is now, and has been for years.

I hate modern football. The rich get richer and everyone else feeds on scraps. Having a league without the Old Firm would genuinely make Scottish football so much more interesting.

[Lago]

From a outside looking in view worse as TV and media would undoubtedly follow them to their new home. From the inside looking out probably keener competition, initially, but of less interest to aforementioned TV and media, how many people really take an interest in Irish football, North or South for instance.

[blackpoolhibs]

With them we just bend over and accept the pain, without them we could begin to see the start of a fair league for the first time since god knows when.

[JohnM1875]

It probably won't though I think that at some point the ' super League ' attempt will be tried again . . Imo the bigger clubs are becoming more powerful and richer which develops into them becoming more greedy for more money . The thread was basically asking fans like yourself do you think our league would become worse without the revenue the old firm generate or would it get better without them .

Super league wouldn’t take them out of the Scottish Premiership though. It was to replace/challenge the current European format.

They’ll never be leaving Scottish football.

[HoboHarry]

Is Scottish football shown regularly in any other countries? Genuine question, I don't see them here at all on telly with the exception of a very rare Euro tie involving the ugly sisters. In all of my 23 years here I've had a handful know of Celtic or Sevco, 2 who knew of Hibs and that's it.

[McD]

Better in all ways. Competition with quite a few teams able to win the league would be the major benefit and I think more fans would gravitate to their nearest clubs. I think attendances would go up too and we could more easily have a larger top league. No other league would be stupid enough to have them and I doubt if tehre was some sort of European League that both would get an invite so it will never happen, mores the pity


This. More competitive across the league, more chance to see your team either win something or be involved in an exciting campaign.

[ancient hibee]

We may lose money which the bean counters across the league would hate and it would look bad on some graph to present to the various board members and owners. But in the grandscheme of things we'd likely all lose the same amount, from a sporting perspective it makes no real difference. However I can imagine for someone like Livi, Killie, and St Johnstone it may be a big deal to lose out on potentially selling out your ground 5/6 times a season.

But if you asked me I'd get rid of the two arse cheeks in a second and move on without them. But I doubt it will ever happen sadly, the English league won't take them into the Premier League instantly and they both wouldn't fancy their chances of having to start, and be stuck in, the Championship. That's even if they're allowed to start there.

You don’t mention that there would be very limited(if any) Tv coverage leading to no advertising or sponsorship. Scottish football would become semi professional.

[neil7908]

Better in all ways. Competition with quite a few teams able to win the league would be the major benefit and I think more fans would gravitate to their nearest clubs. I think attendances would go up too and we could more easily have a larger top league. No other league would be stupid enough to have them and I doubt if tehre was some sort of European League that both would get an invite so it will never happen, mores the pity

Couldn't agree more. Imagine an end of season Edinburgh derby with the league title at stake? You'd sell out in minutes.

Competition drives up interest. There would be an unital hit from TV deals etc but I honestly think for a good chunk of the bigger clubs in Scotland it would be much better financially and on the pitch in the long run.

[stuart-farquhar]

Scottish football is all about them.

Always. The rest have minor supporting roles that shall always remain thus. Unfortunately the majority of the Scottish population have deeply ingrained cultures (The people v those we stamp upon) which is able to be openly displayed by allowing the useful idiots to congregate in the guise of football fans. Whilst many would never publicly condone this, well in private....

[allezsauzee]

While a more competitive league sounds great, I think the reality is that even more fans would be attracted to them than there is now if they are playing EPL teams every week.

[PHeffernan]

Catastrophic.
You wouldn't see Sky etc for dust and that equates to £30 million a season out of the game in Scotland.
Our league would become a backwater like the League of Ireland and dying fans would be replaced by ever decreasing numbers of new supporters. The Bill Foley and Ron Gordons of the world wouldn't be interested in us.
Our stadiums would deteriorate season on season and we could never afford to replace them. They would eventually be sold for housing and the clubs would move to far smaller premises and once they had spent that windfall there would be nothing else to sell.

[DH1875]

It would be worse. You'd just end up replacing rangers and celtic with Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts within 5 years. Thats the difficulty as we look at it as we'd be winning league (hopefully). For 90% of the other teams they'd still be the same except without the oldfirm.

[Donegal Hibby]

Super league wouldn’t take them out of the Scottish Premiership though. It was to replace/challenge the current European format.

They’ll never be leaving Scottish football.

In the podcast I listened to the English journalist said they are to good for the league they are in but not good enough for Europe which is probably right . If Celtic and Sevco hierarchy got even a sniff of a chance to go to England or anywhere else they thought they would benefit from , I think they'd push to leave imo .

[JohnM1875]

In the podcast I listened to the English journalist said they are to good for the league they are in but not good enough for Europe which is probably right . If Celtic and Sevco hierarchy got even a sniff of a chance to go to England or anywhere else they thought they would benefit from , I think they'd push to leave imo .

Aw I don’t doubt that. The issue is absolutely no one wants them. Not even the majority of fans up here. Can’t stand either of them

[Northernhibee]

It wouldn't attract as high viewing figures, but if the leagues and cups were to be rehauled then it could be quite interesting.

I like the idea of the league cup becoming a bit like the League Challenge Cup with teams from Northern Ireland and Wales invited along. Perhaps a few other leagues in Europe could be involved to help get the brand out.

I'd keep the Scottish Cup as it is.

In terms of the league, maybe look at leagues like the A-League. Have rules to help encourage the development of young Scottish players, maybe it involves a wage cap or something similar. Maybe there's some sort of tournament - like how the play offs work in lower leagues - to create a grand final. 4th plays 3rd, then the winner of that plays 2nd, then the last team standing in that takes on the league leaders.

If you can have measures in place to stop two teams filling the role that Celtic and Rangers fill now, and make decision making in the league more equitable between each of the teams, then it could become really interesting.

It would also be easier to expand the league out to 18-20 teams which would be more interesting. You could then change the pyramid beneath that to have a north/south or east/west league system to help make it easier for smaller teams to travel to games and in turn cut their running costs.

[Donegal Hibby]

Aw I don’t doubt that. The issue is absolutely no one wants them. Not even the majority of fans up here. Can’t stand either of them

Your comment about nobody wanting them has me beat 😤😂🤣

[Hibbyradge]

Without the money the game gets from TV, and sponsorship, the better players would no longer come to Scotland so the product on the park would deteriorate.

More and more supporters would gravitate to Rantic who they would see on TV playing glamorous teams with top players and huge crowds.

Transfer income would decrease because there would be fewer good players to sell, but also because we'd be even bigger paupers than we are now. We'd be biting hands off for £300k never mind complaining about only getting £2.5m for McGinn.

European football would soon become a thing of the past with coefficients dropping like a stone. Gone with it would be the participation money, the exposure and the TV cash.

The only upside is that the Premiership might be more competitive but Scottish football is much more than just the top league.

Teams throughout the country, senior and junior, full time and part time, would lose income, income that most of them vitally need to stay in existence.

To sum up, our national sport would undoubtedly suffer at root and branch. Parts of it could be decimated.

Would we really want to risk all that so that a few more teams might have a chance a to win a devalued title?

If Rantic were to disappear altogether, then our game definitely would become better and stronger but while they exist they will continue to hoover up the money and hold the power whether in our league or next door's.

All imho, obvs.

[Yorkshire HFC]

"If".

Not going to happen ever.

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The Super League will happen. It's just around the corner, and Rangers and Celtic will be involved with it. Loads of money for them.

I'm sure that the owners of all the other clubs know how they're going to deal with it.......

[Kato]

The Super League will happen. It's just around the corner, and Rangers and Celtic will be involved with it. Loads of money for them.

I'm sure that the owners of all the other clubs know how they're going to deal with it.......The late 80s is on the phone asking for its conjecture back.

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[whiskyhibby]

While a more competitive league sounds great, I think the reality is that even more fans would be attracted to them than there is now if they are playing EPL teams every week.


I seriously doubt that they would have the same level of support after 5 years in the English leagues (possibly even EFL . They are unlikely to be competitive and other clubs won’t tolerate the behaviour seen with Celtic or Rangers fans for very long

[superfurryhibby]

The Super League will happen. It's just around the corner, and Rangers and Celtic will be involved with it. Loads of money for them.

I'm sure that the owners of all the other clubs know how they're going to deal with it.......

I've long thought that this would happen. The expansion of the "Champions" League and the Europa Leagues have perhaps staved it off.

I guess that Ron Gordon would have wanted Hibs to be part of any such development (obviously at a lower level) if that was the way the wind was blowing.

There again, I also imagined that international football was close to being done, nothing in it for the big clubs really.

If Rantic were ever to be involved in any expanded European League, they would still find a way to play in Scotland too, the clubs would roll over for them, as they always do.

[SHODAN]

If they move to another league - no. Just.

If they cease to exist - hell yes.

[OstKurve Hibs]

We would all lose the same amount of money roughly so get them tf and the rest of us can just play fitba n not have t listen t there crap every time we play them !
Certain clubs would feel the pinch more than others, clubs that give them 70% of their stadiums, St Johnstone, livvy etc but they'll adapt.

[marinello59]

You don't improve your league by getting rid of the two strongest teams in it. Standards would drop like a stone as sponsorship levels dropped and our best players decamped to the English leagues.
They aren't wanted anywhere else anyway. :greengrin

[Eyrie]

Better.

It would be much more competitive without two teams that are on a different planet financially to the 40 football teams and whose supporters' behaviour is appalling.

As regards where they'd go, who cares as long as we get rid of them?

[KeithTheHibby]

Anyone know how much Hibs make from the current tv deal?

[KeithTheHibby]

You don’t mention that there would be very limited(if any) Tv coverage leading to no advertising or sponsorship. Scottish football would become semi professional.

Nae bother Neil Doncaster. Semi professional? Behave yourself.

[Silky]

If Rantic were ever to be involved in any expanded European League, they would still find a way to play in Scotland too, the clubs would roll over for them, as they always do.

I imagine it may be as a rebrand of the current colt team or whatever it is that currently play in the Lowland League.

[zitelli62]

At least 3 or 4 teams playing for the league every year guaranteed sell outs with a chance of winning the league and cups and no sectarian bile every week eventually ifs its a competitive league tv companies would want to cover the games bring it on we all live in hope.

[easty]

I’d enjoy it more, because seeing your team winning the trophies is what matters to a real fan.

The league as a whole though…I’m not sure. It’d be an immediate drop in overall standard. The money in our game would drop dramatically. The quality of footballer wanting to come here would drop.

I think a lot more kids would grow up supporting Celtc or Rangers. Maybe with an affinity to another Scottish team.

Over time, Scottish football would suffer. It’s not what I want.

It’s **** knowing we won’t win the league, but that’s the norm for almost all countries. There’s only a few teams who can win the top leagues. Leicester is an anomaly.

[KeithTheHibby]

At least 3 or 4 teams playing for the league every year guaranteed sell outs with a chance of winning the league and cups and no sectarian bile every week eventually ifs its a competitive league tv companies would want to cover the games bring it on we all live in hope.

This is where I am at. Scottish football would need a huge reset but I think in the medium to long term it would flourish without that pair.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

It would be worse. You'd just end up replacing rangers and celtic with Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts within 5 years. Thats the difficulty as we look at it as we'd be winning league (hopefully). For 90% of the other teams they'd still be the same except without the oldfirm.

That's how I see it too.

[Malthibby]

Oh to get the dead weight of those two off Scottish footie, and culture.
We can only dream.
Weird to think that if they ever did get to England (next to impossible imo) it would probably result
in a sea change in their behaviour; as someone has already said, the embedded bigotry would simply not
be tolerated.

[Glory Lurker]

The Old Firm would be dead if everyone broke away and excluded them. I wish the rest of us would wake up to that potential and act collectively. Even if not going as far as leaving them isolated (although I'm all up for that), just standing up to their nonsense. We're stronger than we think.

[Hibbyradge]

The Old Firm would be dead if everyone broke away and excluded them. I wish the rest of us would wake up to that potential and act collectively. Even if not going as far as leaving them isolated (although I'm all up for that), just standing up to their nonsense. We're stronger than we think.

Clubs rely on the cash they generate for their existence. They don't want to destroy them.

[Glory Lurker]

Clubs rely on the cash they generate for their existence. They don't want to destroy them.

But we don't need to go as far as that, just stand together. I get that's very naive. How it should be, though.

[allezsauzee]

I seriously doubt that they would have the same level of support after 5 years in the English leagues (possibly even EFL . They are unlikely to be competitive and other clubs won’t tolerate the behaviour seen with Celtic or Rangers fans for very long

Do you reckon the Rangers fan base diminished after spending 4 years out of the Premier League? Their crowds may have dropped while they were playing lower league teams but the support remained and returned for the big games. I don't see what's in it for the English clubs though and as you say wouldn't want to tolerate their fans behaviour.

[Paulie Walnuts]

At least 3 or 4 teams playing for the league every year guaranteed sell outs with a chance of winning the league and cups and no sectarian bile every week eventually ifs its a competitive league tv companies would want to cover the games bring it on we all live in hope.

How’s it guaranteed sell outs?

I’m not convinced Hibs would be selling out every week when we’d probably be watching players who currently are probably just scraping into full time football.

As much as I hate the OF and the fact they win every league title and probably will for my whole lifetime, there’s absolutely no doubting the Scottish leagues would become absolutely brutal if they left.

If they ceased to exist then longer term that could potentially be a good thing. The good from that situation though would take a length of time to filter through though I reckon.

[whiskyhibby]

Do you reckon the Rangers fan base diminished after spending 4 years out of the Premier League? Their crowds may have dropped while they were playing lower league teams but the support remained and returned for the big games. I don't see what's in it for the English clubs though and as you say wouldn't want to tolerate their fans behaviour.


it’s not the same, the Rangers journey from the bottom league was always going to be a big draw. Small or medium fish in a large pond, with no realistic hope of winning anything or being in the Champions league, they would desert in their droves

[Hibbyradge]

it’s not the same, the Rangers journey from the bottom league was always going to be a big draw. Small or medium fish in a large pond, with no realistic hope of winning anything or being in the Champions league, they would desert in their droves

It's very difficult to get a ticket to see an EPL game, even for teams who have zero chance of getting into Europe never mind win the league.

Their fans want to see great players playing against great teams. The same would happen if Rantic were there whether they were winning often or not.

Also, it's very likely that they would become competitive after they've received all the payments for a few years.

[hibstag]

Couldn't agree more. Imagine an end of season Edinburgh derby with the league title at stake? You'd sell out in minutes.

Competition drives up interest. There would be an unital hit from TV deals etc but I honestly think for a good chunk of the bigger clubs in Scotland it would be much better financially and on the pitch in the long run.
An early post talked about livi and st Johnstone losing full 5 or 6 full houses but more fans would be interested in the competitive matches involving them with other teams where both may be needing points for titles, Europe or relegation that would fill the void.

we also had the farce last year where no meaningful games were shown in TV after the split despite relegation and euro spots being up for grabs to the last day, so the we will lose TV coverage argument doesn't wash as we not getting shown anyway and only getting a poor deal, have Hibs potentially the third team in the country been on TV yet this season.

[Gordy M]

Instead of getting rid of them, i think scottish football would improve with more teams in the top league. What i mean is that if you only play the old firm home and away, there is much more chance of another team competing for longer in the season. I think it would improve the competiveness of the league which in turn helps crowds, sponsorships etc.

[HoboHarry]

You don't improve your league by getting rid of the two strongest teams in it. Standards would drop like a stone as sponsorship levels dropped and our best players decamped to the English leagues.
They aren't wanted anywhere else anyway. :greengrin
Disagree, the league would strengthen with competition, as it is we are hobbling along like a knackered donkey while the two racehorses speed off into the distance and the best players already decamp to England when the opportunity arises. As for standards dropping as mentioned elsewhere, playing in Europe is currently showing that Scottish clubs outwith the uglies are miles behind. We were unlucky to draw Villa this season but Scottish clubs are regularly rinsed by teams we seem to think we are better than.

[Forza Fred]

Tv Money would go out the window unfortunately, having a catastrophic effect.

I despise them both, but no tv company is going to throw many bucks at what is left.

Wages would drop to a level that would result in the SPL being unable to attract any decent foreign players, as the wages wouldn’t be worth leaving home for, and any aspiring local players would see a ‘big move’ as any move to the English lower leagues.

The league would eventually mirror the likes of the Irish league, certainly in terms of overseas interest.

The key is tv money……it might not be huge just now, but take out the ugly sisters and it would be negligible.

Wish we could find a way though

[Smartie]

Infinitely better.

The majority of football “competitions” are actually dross from a competition point of view and the majority of the games involving those 2 teams are effectively non-events which merely exist as vehicles for inadequate ********s to vent beliefs that are a few centuries out of date.

There is a cracking competition that could exist if they weren’t there with up to 20 clubs potentially being up to winning it. Yes, there would be less money initially without them but instead of showcasing players who are essentially third rate in the grand scheme of things anyway it could be a breeding ground for cheaper younger talent making their way.

Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out, I say.

[HoboHarry]

Tv Money would go out the window unfortunately, having a catastrophic effect.

I despise them both, but no tv company is going to throw many bucks at what is left.

Wages would drop to a level that would result in the SPL being unable to attract any decent foreign players, as the wages wouldn’t be worth leaving home for, and any aspiring local players would see a ‘big move’ as any move to the English lower leagues.

The league would eventually mirror the likes of the Irish league, certainly in terms of overseas interest.

The key is tv money……it might not be huge just now, but take out the ugly sisters and it would be negligible.

Wish we could find a way though
What overseas interest? I asked this already, other than ex-pats following their own team, which countries show Scottish football on a weekly basis? Genuine question by the way....

[Pretty Boy]

I find it interesting that so many seem to assume 'young folk' would lose interest if the quality dropped in such a hypothetical scenario. I suppose it's reflective of the demographic on here though that it's all supposition rather than anyone under 25-30 actually saying what they think.

My experience is that young people are taking a renewed interest in Scottish football, particularly in the lower and non leagues but across the board. Hibs away support arguably proves the point to some extent. It's way up on what it was pre COVID (and it was already growing before that shutdown). St Mirren are semi competitive for the 1st time in years in the league and are selling out some weeks. That's with no chance of winning anything, remove Celtic and Rangers from the equation and they'd be top of the league right now. Loads of local clubs have their own ultras sections and groups of young guys in particular turning up week in and week out.


A lot of talk about the League of Ireland as well. Worth noting their attendances are up almost 25% year on year and they just smashed their attendance record at the Aviva for their cup final and there are fresh calls for upgraded infrastructure and stadia to help meet demand. They have been competing with the EPL for a fanbase for years and whilst it's a stretch to say they are winning, they appear to be clawing some ground back.

For many football isn't about the quality on the park, if it solely was no one would choose Scottish football (and only a total weirdo enjoys watching their team get pumped by Celtic because they get to see Kyogo and Maeda). It's about the emotional attachment, the day out, the friendships and the sense of belonging. None of that changes without Celtic and Rangers.

[Carheenlea]

Looking back over the period since the last non old firm league winner (Aberdeen in 84/85) and third place or splitting Old Firm, you have :

85/86 - Hearts (2nd)
86/87 - Dundee Utd
87/88 - Hearts (2nd)
88/89 - Aberdeen (2nd)
89/90 - Aberdeen (2nd)
90/91 - Aberdeen (2nd)
91/92 - Hearts (2nd)
92/93 - Aberdeen (2nd)
93/94 - Aberdeen (2nd)
94/95 - Motherwell (2nd)
95/96 - Aberdeen
96/97 - Dundee Utd
97/98 - Hearts
98/99 - St Johnstone
99/00 - Hearts
00/01 - Hibs
01/02 - Livingston
02/03 - Hearts
03/04 - Hearts
04/05 - Hibs
05/06 - Hearts (2nd)
06/07 - Aberdeen
07/08 - Motherwell
08/09 - Hearts
09/10 - Dundee Utd
10/11 - Hearts
11/12 - Motherwell
12/13 - Motherwell (2nd) *Rangers expelled
13/14 - Motherwell (2nd)
14/15 - Aberdeen (2nd)
15/16 - Aberdeen (2nd)
16/17 - Aberdeen (2nd) *Rangers back
17/18 - Aberdeen (2nd)
18/19 - Kilmarnock
19/20 - Motherwell
20/21 - Hibs
21/22 - Hearts
22/23 - Aberdeen

I know everyone’s playing the Old Firm in this period so assuming each “best of the rest” to be champion isn't an exact science, but it gives an idea of how title winners and challenges could ebb and flow through time.

The dominant clubs would have been Hearts and Aberdeen, but a reasonable share with other competitors.

Hearts - 11
Aberdeen - 12
Dundee Utd - 3
Motherwell - 6
St Johnstone - 1
Livingston - 1
Kilmarnock - 1
Hibs - 3

8 different winners in 38 seasons, but I must admit that if the alternative is a league where Aberdeen and Hearts are the dominant forces, I think I might actually prefer the status quo!

[DH1875]

What overseas interest? I asked this already, other than ex-pats following their own team, which countries show Scottish football on a weekly basis? Genuine question by the way....

Is it not shown on Paramount+ in the states? Pretty sure its supposed to be shown in 70 countries world wide in some sort of format. Baffling one being China who or did at least recently show 55 live games as season apparently.

[Trinity Hibee]

Looking back over the period since the last non old firm league winner (Aberdeen in 84/85) and third place or splitting Old Firm, you have :

85/86 - Hearts (2nd)
86/87 - Dundee Utd
87/88 - Hearts (2nd)
88/89 - Aberdeen (2nd)
89/90 - Aberdeen (2nd)
90/91 - Aberdeen (2nd)
91/92 - Hearts (2nd)
92/93 - Aberdeen (2nd)
93/94 - Aberdeen (2nd)
94/95 - Motherwell (2nd)
95/96 - Aberdeen
96/97 - Dundee Utd
97/98 - Hearts
98/99 - St Johnstone
99/00 - Hearts
00/01 - Hibs
01/02 - Livingston
02/03 - Hearts
03/04 - Hearts
04/05 - Hibs
05/06 - Hearts (2nd)
06/07 - Aberdeen
07/08 - Motherwell
08/09 - Hearts
09/10 - Dundee Utd
10/11 - Hearts
11/12 - Motherwell
12/13 - Motherwell (2nd) *Rangers expelled
13/14 - Motherwell (2nd)
14/15 - Aberdeen (2nd)
15/16 - Aberdeen (2nd)
16/17 - Aberdeen (2nd) *Rangers back
17/18 - Aberdeen (2nd)
18/19 - Kilmarnock
19/20 - Motherwell
20/21 - Hibs
21/22 - Hearts
22/23 - Aberdeen

I know everyone’s playing the Old Firm in this period so assuming each “best of the rest” to be champion isn't an exact science, but it gives an idea of how title winners and challenges could ebb and flow through time.

The dominant clubs would have been Hearts and Aberdeen, but a reasonable share with other competitors.

Hearts - 11
Aberdeen - 12
Dundee Utd - 3
Motherwell - 6
St Johnstone - 1
Livingston - 1
Kilmarnock - 1
Hibs - 3

8 different winners in 38 seasons, but I must admit that if the alternative is a league where Aberdeen and Hearts are the dominant forces, I think I might actually prefer the status quo!

That record is tragic

[ScottB]

Firstly, as the English game has skyrocketed, the potential value the Old Firm would bring, versus their downsides, has greatly changed.

Would these teams incomes or the wider TV deal noticeably change with the Old Firm? I’m not buying it.

But assuming they go, what happens?

Yes, we likely take a hit on our meagre TV deal, but, it would presumably lead to a better variety of games being shown in what would instantly be one of the most competitive top flight leagues in Europe. We get more from ticket sales than TV already, that greater interest could be paired with more 3pm kick offs to increase revenue.

I guess budgets might reduce a bit, but I’m not really that fussed. I’m not sure the product would be appreciably worse domestically, we already get battered by the first decent side we find in Europe (goes for all of Scotland’s teams) and we’d be in with a shout of winning stuff every year.

I’d welcome their departure, if anywhere else was dumb enough to take them.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Firstly, as the English game has skyrocketed, the potential value the Old Firm would bring, versus their downsides, has greatly changed.

Would these teams incomes or the wider TV deal noticeably change with the Old Firm? I’m not buying it.

But assuming they go, what happens?

Yes, we likely take a hit on our meagre TV deal, but, it would presumably lead to a better variety of games being shown in what would instantly be one of the most competitive top flight leagues in Europe. We get more from ticket sales than TV already, that greater interest could be paired with more 3pm kick offs to increase revenue.

I guess budgets might reduce a bit, but I’m not really that fussed. I’m not sure the product would be appreciably worse domestically, we already get battered by the first decent side we find in Europe (goes for all of Scotland’s teams) and we’d be in with a shout of winning stuff every year.

I’d welcome their departure, if anywhere else was dumb enough to take them.

Budgets wouldn’t reduce a bit, they’d reduce massively.

With the Old Firm still here we find ourselves regularly struggling for sponsors for our competitions. There would be next to no money coming in to Scottish teams other than ticket money and the idea we’d all start selling out simply wouldn’t happen imo. We’d be looking at players in the sort of market Livi shop in now and the teams further down the league would likely be part time. It would be a desperately poor league that couldn’t justify the ticket prices we currently charge.

I reckon us, Hearts and Aberdeen would manage to remain full time comfortably, but we’d be very poor. After that, there would maybe be one or two others, but at least half our league would likely be part time.

[HoboHarry]

Budgets wouldn’t reduce a bit, they’d reduce massively.

With the Old Firm still here we find ourselves regularly struggling for sponsors for our competitions. There would be next to no money coming in to Scottish teams other than ticket money and the idea we’d all start selling out simply wouldn’t happen imo. We’d be looking at players in the sort of market Livi shop in now and the teams further down the league would likely be part time. It would be a desperately poor league that couldn’t justify the ticket prices we currently charge.

I reckon us, Hearts and Aberdeen would manage to remain full time comfortably, but we’d be very poor. After that, there would maybe be one or two others, but at least half our league would likely be part time.

That's a whole load of doomsday conjecture there with nothing to back it up.

[neil7908]

Remember when we were told Sevco getting booted out the league would result in "Armageddon"?

How did that turn out again for the rest of us? I've a feeling we might have had our best season in 50 odd years...

[Hibbyradge]

That's a whole load of doomsday conjecture there with nothing to back it up.

Of course it's conjecture. As are the posts saying Scottish football would flourish.

But if you put Real Madrid and Barcelona into the German league, do you think La Liga would grow. Or get smaller and less relevant?

[Hibbyradge]

Remember when we were told Sevco getting booted out the league would result in "Armageddon"?

How did that turn out again for the rest of us? I've a feeling we might have had our best season in 50 odd years...

They didn't get booted out of the league. They didn't leave the Scottish League.

Did we have our best season for 50 years because they were out of the league? We got relegated in 2013.

We won the Scottish Cup but that had nothing to do with league status. Or am I on the wrong track?

[Paulie Walnuts]

That's a whole load of doomsday conjecture there with nothing to back it up.

There’s nothing to back up every opinion on this thread.

[JJP]

There isn't much value in being the champions of Scotland without beating the best teams in Scotland. If anyone is ever going to challenge the old firm the only way it could possibly happen and still be meaningful is to increase the number of teams in the top league. It would still be unlikely but more likely than it is now.

[Haymaker]

Is Scottish football shown regularly in any other countries? Genuine question, I don't see them here at all on telly with the exception of a very rare Euro tie involving the ugly sisters. In all of my 23 years here I've had a handful know of Celtic or Sevco, 2 who knew of Hibs and that's it.

It's on CBS and Paramount+

[Forza Fred]

Is Scottish football shown regularly in any other countries? Genuine question, I don't see them here at all on telly with the exception of a very rare Euro tie involving the ugly sisters. In all of my 23 years here I've had a handful know of Celtic or Sevco, 2 who knew of Hibs and that's it.

Scottish football is important to Scottish people.

In Oz, it doesn’t get air time…..unless you pay for Bein Sports……which from memory used to show the Sunday afternoon game….usually involving one of the ugly sisters.


Bein was part of the main but ailing pay tv channel….Foxtel, but left Foxtel about 6 months ago

I don’t know how many have taken out a subscription to Bein, but I don’t know anyone who has it now.

[Since90+2]

According to Wikipedia the SPFl has broadcasting arrangements in around 60 countries across the world. That includes places like Vietnam and Kosovo.

Now obviously what is shown and viewership will vary massively, but it does appear to have broadcasting rights sold in a lot of countries.

[Forza Fred]

According to Wikipedia the SPFl has broadcasting arrangements in around 60 countries across the world. That includes places like Vietnam and Kosovo.

Now obviously what is shown and viewership will vary massively, but it does appear to have broadcasting rights sold in a lot of countries.

Hibs TV is broadcast world wide too……..not sure what the viewing figures are though.

Be interesting to see them.

[lyonhibs]

It would be poorer financially but better in a sporting context. Relatively simple really, but will never happen in a million years. Nowhere else would choose to accept the hassle of thousands (more) of boozed up neanderthals singing songs referencing long past events and generally being horrid specimens in their country week in, week out.

We're stuck with them sadly.

[blackpoolhibs]

Is it better to be in a rigged league or a poorer league?

[Northernhibee]

Tv Money would go out the window unfortunately, having a catastrophic effect.

I despise them both, but no tv company is going to throw many bucks at what is left.

Wages would drop to a level that would result in the SPL being unable to attract any decent foreign players, as the wages wouldn’t be worth leaving home for, and any aspiring local players would see a ‘big move’ as any move to the English lower leagues.

The league would eventually mirror the likes of the Irish league, certainly in terms of overseas interest.

The key is tv money……it might not be huge just now, but take out the ugly sisters and it would be negligible.

Wish we could find a way though

I wonder how much a subscription based model may work - kind of like a Disney Plus/Netflix style affair. Have it run through the leagues.

I thought that our PPV output through lockdown was pretty good and I’d pay to watch a league wide model.

[GreenCastle]

It would be better overall - but financially worse off.

All non firm clubs should come together to improve the game but they don’t seem to have the courage to do so.

Old Firm won’t go to England / they don’t need or want them.

They won’t join any super league as they aren’t super compared to some of the bigger teams.

The Old Firm are stuck being at a push a Europa league / conference league level team.

I still fully believe the non old firm crowds would go up and even some old firm fans may support local teams more in future if the game was cheaper and more community based.

Until change happens - Scottish football will always have old firm bias.

In the short term fans should just boycott games against them and clubs could even sell ST excluding games against them. I know they are considered CAT A but often get more enjoyment going to the other games more than the old firm games unless a Boyle hat trick type game or 2016 final where one off games we seem to have more of a chance of winning.

[Bobby's Cinema]

Catastrophic.
You wouldn't see Sky etc for dust and that equates to £30 million a season out of the game in Scotland.
Our league would become a backwater like the League of Ireland and dying fans would be replaced by ever decreasing numbers of new supporters. The Bill Foley and Ron Gordons of the world wouldn't be interested in us.
Our stadiums would deteriorate season on season and we could never afford to replace them. They would eventually be sold for housing and the clubs would move to far smaller premises and once they had spent that windfall there would be nothing else to sell.
:hilarious I don't feel like getting out of bed today after reading that

[Donegal Hibby]

One thing on the podcast I listened too was that it was said Scottish football had one of the best supported leagues in Europe going by population and attendances being on the up .

I do agree that without the old firm other clubs would lose a lot of money in the sky etc though I most admit the thought of starting a season being able to have a good chance of a league title or cup ( like many teams would ) i think would see attendances improve even more with a league that you'd have maybe 5 or 6 teams capable of winning ,

This for me I think would eventually have TV companies wanting the rights to show an exciting new league . Would the quality drop ? , maybe though we could still have the investment in our football club most Hibs fans want which might maintain the quality or even make it better .

I honestly do think eventually bigger clubs in Europe will try and maybe succeed in a super league wither the old firm become a part of that or move to England who knows ! . I do think that even now it will be something they will be aiming for in the future. Speaking of investment has anyone seen this about one of our rivals? .
https://www.aberdeenlive.news/sport/football/football-news/aberdeen-chief-executive-alan-burrows-8942854

[neil7908]

They didn't get booted out of the league. They didn't leave the Scottish League.

Did we have our best season for 50 years because they were out of the league? We got relegated in 2013.

We won the Scottish Cup but that had nothing to do with league status. Or am I on the wrong track?

By league I meant SPL - we were told anything that would take Sevco away from the SPL would be absolutely catastrophic for Scottish football and it would be doomsday.

And yet, everything was fine. Plenty of fans found it a better experience (using the OPs term here).

The funny thing is, they will be away sooner or later anyway. There will be a Super League back on the agenda, and although the OF won't make it, there will be a version for medium sized clubs that they will gleefully take the chance to join.

They are slowly strangling the game right now, and given neither will vote against their own self interest, I honestly don't know how we affect any real change with them around.

[HoboHarry]

Is it better to be in a rigged league or a poorer league?
I'll take the poorer league every day of the week if we genuinely have a real chance with every competition.

[KeithTheHibby]

Remember when we were told Sevco getting booted out the league would result in "Armageddon"?

How did that turn out again for the rest of us? I've a feeling we might have had our best season in 50 odd years...

Correct. Remember covid? How many clubs went to the wall? None, same when Sevco were booted out the league.
Far too much short-termism thought in Scottish football. Generally the same on this thread with way too many posts focusing on the immediate future if those ***** were away.

[Hibee Daft]

What i'd prefer is reverting the league back to a 20 team league, 3 up and 3 down.

We'd get 38 games, only have to play celtic and the rangers twice.

Teams like Hibs, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Aberdeen etc would have abit more breathing room and that would allow them to bring in youth and develop styles of play without relegation fears.


If you look at the EPL and you changed there league format to ours it wouldnt take long for Man City/Liverpool to totally dominate and for a big team like Man utd to get relegated and fall even further behind.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Correct. Remember covid? How many clubs went to the wall? None, same when Sevco were booted out the league.
Far too much short-termism thought in Scottish football. Generally the same on this thread with way too many posts focusing on the immediate future if those ***** were away.

You do realise you have to focus on the immediate future? If you don’t get through that then there’s no long term future. Unfortunately, most, if not all Scottish clubs wouldn’t survive the short term future in there current form.

[superfurryhibby]

What i'd prefer is reverting the league back to a 20 team league, 3 up and 3 down.

We'd get 38 games, only have to play celtic and the rangers twice.

Teams like Hibs, Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, Aberdeen etc would have abit more breathing room and that would allow them to bring in youth and develop styles of play without relegation fears.


If you look at the EPL and you changed there league format to ours it wouldnt take long for Man City/Liverpool to totally dominate and for a big team like Man utd to get relegated and fall even further behind.

You're comparing a league from a country with 55 million people against one with 5.5 million people.

I remember the old League set up (just), it was pretty gash.

[Crunchie]

I was listening to a podcast lately were a English journalist said he'd fear the worse for Scottish football if the uglies ever left to go to England, while this might never happen , what if it did ? . Financially I think most clubs would lose a lot of money without them on sky and gate money etc .

Though I was looking at who would have won the league , SC and LC without them since 2014/ 15 season onwards . Taking who finished 3rd and who got to the finals against them as winners .

League = Aberdeen 5 , Hibs , hertz ,killie , Motherwell 1 each .

SC= hertz 3 , Inverness 2 , Aberdeen , Hibs , St Johnstone, Motherwell 1each .

LC = Aberdeen 2 , Hibs , Dundee Utd, Ross county , St johnstone , Motherwell 1 each . ( two cup finals old firm ) .

I think this is fairly accurate though there could be a mistake somewhere . It's fairly competitive with alot of different winners for all the silverware . Would our league maybe thrive and become better with it being more competitive ? Could a league reconstruction if we lost the old firm with teams not playing each other as much be a good thing too ? . Abit of fantasy stuff though just wondering what other posters views were if the old firm left Scottish football ? .
100% it would.

[Crunchie]

Is it better to be in a rigged league or a poorer league?
Exactly, who would give a toss if the standard dropped even though I don't think it would. 30% of the league would be in with a chance of winning it for sure

[HoboHarry]

You do realise you have to focus on the immediate future? If you don’t get through that then there’s no long term future. Unfortunately, most, if not all Scottish clubs wouldn’t survive the short term future in there current form.
Most if not all of the clubs in Scotland would go to the wall if the uglies left? Possibly all? What a load of nonsense.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Most if not all of the clubs in Scotland would go to the wall if the uglies left? Possibly all? What a load of nonsense.

What part of ‘in their current form’ is it that you are finding difficult?

If you don’t think that clubs would have to massively adapt if the Old Firm were to leave and that we could just carry on as we are with significantly less money then I can assure you it’s not me that’s talking nonsense.

[HoboHarry]

What part of ‘in their current form’ is it that you are finding difficult?

If you don’t think that clubs would have to massively adapt if the Old Firm were to leave and that we could just carry on as we are with significantly less money then I can assure you it’s not me that’s talking nonsense.
For the part time clubs, what is the other form that they will switch to? I'm not taking you seriously if you are simply going to present sweeping generalisations with the worst possible scenario with no attempt at financial comparisons - what will the financial impact be for Forfar per season for example if Celtic and Sevco left?

[Paulie Walnuts]

For the part time clubs, what is the other form that they will switch to? I'm not taking you seriously if you are simply going to present sweeping generalisations with the worst possible scenario with no attempt at financial comparisons - what will the financial impact be for Forfar per season for example if Celtic and Sevco left?

They’ll not be paying anywhere near what they’re paying now. That’s adapting and not carrying on in their current form. The whole pyramid would have so little money in it that every club would have to cut their cloth accordingly. Numerous full time clubs would have to go part time. Again, that’s adapting and not continuing in their current form.

I couldn’t care less if you’re ’taking me seriously’. It’s a hypothetical scenario on an internet forum that stands next to no chance of happening. I’d actually encourage you not to get yourself all excited and stop taking it seriously.

[HoboHarry]

They’ll not be paying anywhere near what they’re paying now. That’s adapting and not carrying on in their current form. The whole pyramid would have so little money in it that every club would have to cut their cloth accordingly. Numerous full time clubs would have to go part time. Again, that’s adapting and not continuing in their current form.

I couldn’t care less if you’re ’taking me seriously’. It’s a hypothetical scenario on an internet forum that stands next to no chance of happening. I’d actually encourage you not to get yourself all excited and stop taking it seriously.
OK you don't know and don't know how to work it out. Gotcha. I'll leave you to your fantasy world.

[Paulie Walnuts]

OK you don't know and don't know how to work it out. Gotcha. I'll leave you to your fantasy world.

Don’t know how to work what out? That a huge drop in income would see teams having to adapt and cut their cloth accordingly? I’m not sure it’s me that’s toiling with working that out.

And again, this whole thread is based on a fantasy situation.. you do realise the Old Firm aren’t leaving… surely? You’re going to be awfully disappointed when you find out that this thread isn’t a breaking news report.

[JammyDoidger]

The argument about being worse off financially is irrelevant as everyone would be in the same boat..I'd take a standard drop in player if it meant the league was actually competitive. It would be better in every way, and I'm sure crowds would go up by quite a bit also.

[HoboHarry]

The argument about being worse off financially is irrelevant as everyone would be in the same boat..I'd take a standard drop in player if it meant the league was actually competitive. It would be better in every way, and I'm sure crowds would go up by quite a bit also.
Correct answer, agree completely.

[greenginger]

If the uglies could be made to do a Third Lanark and disappear all together that would be a great thing for Scottish football.

But whilst they still exist we are better off with them in our league than embarrassing us in any English or European league that would have them.

[HoboHarry]

If the uglies could be made to do a Third Lanark and disappear all together that would be a great thing for Scottish football.

But whilst they still exist we are better off with them in our league than embarrassing us in any English or European league that would have them.
If you mean in terms of their fans behaviour, I'm not sure that would be as much of an issue as it is here with no liability and the cowardice of the governing body here.

[007]

Better - as long as they left properly and weren't allowed a 'B' team to play in Scottish football.

[Paulie Walnuts]

The argument about being worse off financially is irrelevant as everyone would be in the same boat..I'd take a standard drop in player if it meant the league was actually competitive. It would be better in every way, and I'm sure crowds would go up by quite a bit also.

I’m not sure the fact that we’d be playing in a league with next to no money being put into it can just be written off as an irrelevance.

Yes, it would be competitive, but so is the Lowland League. If the quality is irrelevant then I presume you’d say the Lowland League is a better league than the Scottish Premiership?

The quality of the league matters. Folk are kidding themselves on if they think folk would be flocking in their droves to watch guys who would be playing in the Scottish Championship or even lower in some our opponents cases imo. They’d be away watching the two Glasgow clubs in even bigger numbers than they are now.

[Hibbyradge]

Correct. Remember covid? How many clubs went to the wall? None, same when Sevco were booted out the league.
Far too much short-termism thought in Scottish football. Generally the same on this thread with way too many posts focusing on the immediate future if those ***** were away.

I'm looking at the short, medium and long term future.

There are more OF supporters than all the other fans put together. They're not going to suddenly change allegiance and start supporting teams in the original league if they leave.

There's a reason that they're on TV every week and they're the reason we're given even the paltry sum they do kindly offer.

Would removing Barca and Real from La Liga improve it and make it more attractive to TV companies and sponsors? Would the Eredivisie suddenly pique people's interest if Ajax and PSV joined the Belgium league?

Scottish football for most of the world is Rantic. I can't tell you the number of times I've been asked if I was blue or green. Most people don't even know the other teams in the Scottish Premiership. Rantic aren't going to disappear so that's not going to change just because Hibs might have a chance of winning the league.

Ask most Scottish fans who won the Welsh or Irish leagues and they won't have a clue. Why is that? Because they're not on TV and if they're not on TV the sponsors won't be interested in the slightest. You can have as much electronic track side advertising as you want, but it won't even get switched on if it's not going to be on TV.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of me would love to get rid of them, but we have to face the reality of what it would mean if/ when they went.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I'm looking at the short, medium and long term future.

There are more OF supporters than all the other fans put together. They're not going to suddenly change allegiance and start supporting teams in the original league if they leave.

There's a reason that they're on TV every week and they're the reason we're given even the paltry sum they do kindly offer.

Would removing Barca and Real from La Liga improve it and make it more attractive to TV companies and sponsors? Would the Eredivisie suddenly pique people's interest if Ajax and PSV joined the Belgium league?

Scottish football for most of the world is Rantic. I can't tell you the number of times I've been asked if I was blue or green. Most people don't even know the other teams in the Scottish Premiership. Rantic aren't going to disappear so that's not going to change just because Hibs might have a chance of winning the league.

Ask most Scottish fans who won the Welsh or Irish leagues and they won't have a clue. Why is that? Because they're not on TV and if they're not on TV the sponsors won't be interested in the slightest. You can have as much electronic track side advertising as you want, but it won't even get switched on if it's not going to be on TV.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of me would love to get rid of them, but we have to face the reality of what it would mean if/ when they went.

:agree:

All the chat that Scottish football would be better for it is pure bravado imo. Our league, or any league for that matter, would fall to bits by losing about 55% of the supporters that follow it at grounds and probably even more than that in terms of people that follow it overall.

We’d all love to get rid of the OF and also have a good league at a good standard etc. It couldn’t happen though. We’d be left with a league of a terrible standard, with a pitiful amount of money coming into it and the crowds would end up reflecting that.

[blackpoolhibs]

I'm looking at the short, medium and long term future.

There are more OF supporters than all the other fans put together. They're not going to suddenly change allegiance and start supporting teams in the original league if they leave.

There's a reason that they're on TV every week and they're the reason we're given even the paltry sum they do kindly offer.

Would removing Barca and Real from La Liga improve it and make it more attractive to TV companies and sponsors? Would the Eredivisie suddenly pique people's interest if Ajax and PSV joined the Belgium league?

Scottish football for most of the world is Rantic. I can't tell you the number of times I've been asked if I was blue or green. Most people don't even know the other teams in the Scottish Premiership. Rantic aren't going to disappear so that's not going to change just because Hibs might have a chance of winning the league.

Ask most Scottish fans who won the Welsh or Irish leagues and they won't have a clue. Why is that? Because they're not on TV and if they're not on TV the sponsors won't be interested in the slightest. You can have as much electronic track side advertising as you want, but it won't even get switched on if it's not going to be on TV.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of me would love to get rid of them, but we have to face the reality of what it would mean if/ when they went.

While we continue to get shafted/cheated each week, each season i'm of the opinion i'd rather watch a fair game than a crooked one, and if that means they are somewhere else and the standard drops, then fair enough.

[Hibbyradge]

While we continue to get shafted/cheated each week, each season i'm of the opinion i'd rather watch a fair game than a crooked one, and if that means they are somewhere else and the standard drops, then fair enough.

And that's a fair enough and honest point of view. I'm not a million miles away from it, tbh.

It would be impossible for me to stop supporting Hibs regardless of how good or bad they, or the league they played in.

However, the idea that Scottish football would somehow flourish into a product which would have TV companies, sponsors and fans flocking to it is sheer fantasy and wishful thinking.

You know all the "dead wood" in our squad that folk want rid of? We'd get rid of them alright, or rather they'd get rid of us. Heckingbottom said the Premiership was about the same as the English league one. "Bottom half". We'll be non league equivalent if/when Rantic bugger off.

It would be like watching York City except without the hope of progressing into a higher league.

It's entirely out of our hands anyway so no point worrying about them going, or looking forward to it.

[Brightside]

Some people saying they would rather have a worse standard of player? Its already pretty poor. If thats the level of football you want to watch pick a team in the first div as its pretty competitive.

Improving the product is what keeps the game going.

[blackpoolhibs]

And that's a fair enough and honest point of view. I'm not a million miles away from it, tbh.

It would be impossible for me to stop supporting Hibs regardless of how good or bad they, or the league they played in.

However, the idea that Scottish football would somehow flourish into a product which would have TV companies, sponsors and fans flocking to it is sheer fantasy and wishful thinking.

You know all the "dead wood" in our squad that folk want rid of? We'd get rid of them alright, or rather they'd get rid of us. Heckingbottom said the Premiership was about the same as the English league one. "Bottom half". We'll be non league equivalent if/when Rantic bugger off.

It would be like watching York City except without the hope of progressing into a higher league.

It's entirely out of our hands anyway so no point worrying about them going, or looking forward to it.


Some people saying they would rather have a worse standard of player? Its already pretty poor. If thats the level of football you want to watch pick a team in the first div as its pretty competitive.

Improving the product is what keeps the game going.

The game is bent, it does not matter what quality of player we have, we will be cheated at every opportunity.

The game is rigged from the top down, 2 clubs are treated differently from the rest of us and everything is done to make sure they win at all cost.

Messi could play for us, and the fenian ******* would be sent off every week for diving.

I'm personally at the stage where i dont care about Scottish football much now, obviously i love Hibs and want them to do well, but knowing we wont be allowed to, is just soul destroying.

[stuart-farquhar]

The game is bent, it does not matter what quality of player we have, we will be cheated at every opportunity.

The game is rigged from the top down, 2 clubs are treated differently from the rest of us and everything is done to make sure they win at all cost.

Messi could play for us, and the fenian ******* would be sent off every week for diving.

I'm personally at the stage where i dont care about Scottish football much now, obviously i love Hibs and want them to do well, but knowing we wont be allowed to, is just sole destroying.

Sorry about your shoes.

[blackpoolhibs]

Sorry about your shoes.
:faf: Sorted now.

[KeithTheHibby]

You do realise you have to focus on the immediate future? If you don’t get through that then there’s no long term future. Unfortunately, most, if not all Scottish clubs wouldn’t survive the short term future in there current form.

Absolute rubbish. You think them leaving would happen overnight? There would be a substantial period allowed giving all clubs time to get their house in order.

[GreenCastle]

I do wonder if there will be a time when large number of fans just stop going to Old Firm games or boycott them.

I think Hibs and Hearts home crowds are already starting to do this against them more than people realise.

The Old Firm are also in a period of time when the Champions League will become a thing of a past for them as other teams improve. They are miles away from teams like Liverpool / Man City etc.

It amazes me the clubs in Scotland don’t stand together to look for change / new set up.

I think fans will over time stop attending and non old firm crowds will drop if the gap continues to widen and slim chance to win anything. I’m aware some crowds are up and even away followings may be up but the way things are going fans could easily stop very quickly especially with the cost of living and other priorities for many.

[Alex Trager]

While a more competitive league sounds great, I think the reality is that even more fans would be attracted to them than there is now if they are playing EPL teams every week.

Agree.

[zitelli62]

Another way would be summer football without the uglies, better weather better pitch and tv companies would buy it as it would give them something competitive to show in the summer Scandinavian countries seem to do it OK.

[Hibbyradge]

Absolute rubbish. You think them leaving would happen overnight? There would be a substantial period allowed giving all clubs time to get their house in order.

How do you know?

Given that they would be abandoning the rest of us, what makes you think they'd give a monkey's about our readiness?

Even the Super league, which have involved 20 teams from several countries, was planned to start next season. That was a totally new entity, built from scratch. That timescale wouldn't be needed if Rantic just joined the existing EPL.

Players might be on long contracts, players who teams couldn't afford without the TV money. They might not be able to get similar deals elsewhere so they'll still be a huge financial burden and overheads won't decrease.

Does anyone think that the EPL or any other body would feel like compensating the remaining clubs? I don't.

Obviously it's all speculation but I'm pretty sure that we'd see clubs folding.

[Hibbyradge]

Another way would be summer football without the uglies, better weather better pitch and tv companies would buy it as it would give them something competitive to show in the summer Scandinavian countries seem to do it OK.

And there wouldn't be any of that pesky European football to mess with the fixture list.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Absolute rubbish. You think them leaving would happen overnight? There would be a substantial period allowed giving all clubs time to get their house in order.

You’ve absolutely no idea how long it would take, nobody does.

As HR pointed out, the super league was due to start next season. We’ll have players who would be under contract from before that concept was announced until next season. If we use that time frame as an example (and as HR said, that’s a whole new league concept rather than two teams getting dropped into an already established league), then these players would be perfectly entitled to demand we honour that contract. And that would prove extremely problematic when the money has all but disappeared.

One things for sure, if the opportunity came up for them to leave for a richer league, they’d take it without a thought for anybody left behind.

[Paulie Walnuts]

How do you know?

Given that they would be abandoning the rest of us, what makes you think they'd give a monkey's about our readiness?

Even the Super league, which have involved 20 teams from several countries, was planned to start next season. That was a totally new entity, built from scratch. That timescale wouldn't be needed if Rantic just joined the existing EPL.

Players might be on long contracts, players who teams couldn't afford without the TV money. They might not be able to get similar deals elsewhere so they'll still be a huge financial burden and overheads won't decrease.

Does anyone think that the EPL or any other body would feel like compensating the remaining clubs? I don't.

Obviously it's all speculation but I'm pretty sure that we'd see clubs folding.

Spot on again.

The thought of football without the Old Firm, with sell out crowds, tv deals better than our current one because the league would be more competitive are great. They’re complete fantasy though. TV deals etc aren’t given out based on competitiveness. If you lose the only two teams that matter when it comes to finances, then the whole league will go to ****.

[Donegal Hibby]

I think if the uglies did ever leave the main issue would be the sky deal , sponsorship money etc which would be a massive lose to all clubs .

Though would reconstruction of the league and rebranding it were we'd have a league were 5 or 6 teams can win it and god knows how many could win a cup too . The league wouldn't get the same money without the old firm though maybe it could get over half , two thirds or so .

There still could be outside investment even if the old firm left which might keep the quality at a decent enough level too .

As it is we might be getting more money with the old firm now though look what's happening to the league as imo it's getting strangled abit more every year with corruption and it becoming a case of there's only two teams that going to win the trophies . 3 biggest clubs outside the old firm Hibs , hertz and Aberdeen and it's going on to 8 years since we won anything .

Financially we'd probably be worse off though having a fair , competitive league were there's different winners most years of all the silverware I think would see attendances increase alot . while it would be a struggle in the beginning the thought of no old firm is quite appealing imo .

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think if the uglies did ever leave the main issue would be the sky deal , sponsorship money etc which would be a massive lose to all clubs .

Though would reconstruction of the league and rebranding it were we'd have a league were 5 or 6 teams can win it and god knows how many could win a cup too . The league wouldn't get the same money without the old firm though maybe it could get over half , two thirds or so .

There still could be outside investment even if the old firm left which might keep the quality at a decent enough level too .

As it is we might be getting more money with the old firm now though look what's happening to the league as imo it's getting strangled abit more every year with corruption and it becoming a case of there's only two teams that going to win the trophies . 3 biggest clubs outside the old firm Hibs , hertz and Aberdeen and it's going on to 8 years since we won anything .

Financially we'd probably be worse off though having a fair , competitive league were there's different winners most years of all the silverware I think would see attendances increase alot . while it would be a struggle in the beginning the thought of no old firm is quite appealing imo .

No chance we’d get anywhere near half the money imo.

The OF fans account for way over half the viewing figures of our league. The Edinburgh derby would be the biggest game in our league and they don’t even want to show that on TV a lot of the time now and that’s despite the fact we’re much better teams currently than we would be without the Old Firm.

As far as TV companies go, they would have no real interest, same as now in that they’ve no interest in our league unless it’s the OF. We’d get a pittance.

[SickBoy32]

I wonder how much TV revenue makes up as a proportion of SPL clubs income? I'd guess fairly low (maybe in the region of 20-30% on average?), given the reliance from most clubs on ticket sales. On that basis, I'd suggest that clubs would not fold, and indeed some could prosper in a fair and competitive domestic game. (Similar to the Championship)

The OF will never leave in reality, but I think the doom mongers predicting clubs going to the wall (St J and Livi would likely struggle due to virtually zero fanbase) are wide of the mark.

It's also pretty bleak to read that a lot of our fans view the OF as necessary to survival, that's exactly the subservient attitude that successive boards- (of all clubs) have had, and led us to where we are currently. We allow them to ride over the top of us (in a variety of ways) and we just meekly accept it.

Give me a reduction in quality (we're ***** anyway, Euro results for at least the last 15 years for ourselves, Sheep hearts support this) for a league setup that isn't totally rigged from the get go. :aok:

[Smartie]

No chance we’d get anywhere near half the money imo.

The OF fans account for way over half the viewing figures of our league. The Edinburgh derby would be the biggest game in our league and they don’t even want to show that on TV a lot of the time now and that’s despite the fact we’re much better teams currently than we would be without the Old Firm.

As far as TV companies go, they would have no real interest, same as now in that they’ve no interest in our league unless it’s the OF. We’d get a pittance.

We'd get a relative pittance.

The vast majority of the current tv money (which still isn't brilliant) is munched up by the Glasgow clubs so there really isn't all that much left over to share between the remaining teams.

Instead of relying on Sky and co, we could be quite creative with a home made tv product that sells directly to the fans, those who would be most likely to be interested in it anyway.

The idea that either now or at any time in the future there is any real appetite for anyone outside Scotland to watch Scottish football is madness. We need to stop being so bloody grateful for the crumbs that are thrown our way to be the cannon fodder in the tedious Celtic Rangers thing.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Was this not why we were being mugged off with 'b' teams so they could have the best of both worlds?

As much as deals relying on them I wouldn't shed a tear if they ****ed off. Interesting to see how long the **** sectarianism and guarenteed penalties would last

[neil7908]

No chance we’d get anywhere near half the money imo.

The OF fans account for way over half the viewing figures of our league. The Edinburgh derby would be the biggest game in our league and they don’t even want to show that on TV a lot of the time now and that’s despite the fact we’re much better teams currently than we would be without the Old Firm.

As far as TV companies go, they would have no real interest, same as now in that they’ve no interest in our league unless it’s the OF. We’d get a pittance.

Genuine question (not just aimed at you, your post just seems the most relevant) but how do the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc get such cracking TV deals when they don't have any clubs the size of the OF? Even taking away the OF attendances, the likes of us, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee teams get decent crowds compared to our Scandi brothers but are miles and miles behind.



It's like we're drug addicts in Scotland - hooked on the OF as they slowly suck the life from the game.

[Hibbyradge]

Financially we'd probably be worse off though having a fair , competitive league were there's different winners most years of all the silverware I think would see attendances increase alot . while it would be a struggle in the beginning the thought of no old firm is quite appealing imo .

Whose attendances would increase?

Certainly not the teams who won't have a chance of winning the league which in most years would be everyone barHibs, Hertz and the Sheep.

Every other team would see a huge dent in their gate money. Last season, Livingston's entire attendance was 71,766. Over 27,000 of that came from their 3 games against Rantic. That's getting on for close to 40% of their income. How do they make up for the loss of that along with the TV money and sponsorship? :dunno:

Even if our attendances increased, we're not going to be getting 35000 every week into a stadium that holds shy of 20.5k. We averaged around 17.5k last season so the scope to increase our income in order to make up for the loss of TV cash and sponsorship is extremely limited.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Genuine question (not just aimed at you, your post just seems the most relevant) but how do the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc get such cracking TV deals when they don't have any clubs the size of the OF? Even taking away the OF attendances, the likes of us, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee teams get decent crowds compared to our Scandi brothers but are miles and miles behind.



It's like we're drug addicts in Scotland - hooked on the OF as they slowly suck the life from the game.

I’ve no idea, I know little about the Scandi leagues tbh.

I don’t disagree the OF are sucking the life out the game. I don’t even disagree there would be an element of enjoyment from not having them. I think folk are kidding themselves on though if they think it would be a league of anything close to a decent standard though. It would be littered with part time teams imo. We’ve already got a few like Livi and St J who have budgets probably not all that much bigger than some part time sides. We’d be at the point where unless you were playing for Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen you’d likely be better off financially going and working a normal job and building a career that would last you a lifetime rather than being a full time footballer at any of the other sides for 10 years or so. That’s how poor it would be.

[Hibbyradge]

I wonder how much TV revenue makes up as a proportion of SPL clubs income? I'd guess fairly low (maybe in the region of 20-30% on average?), given the reliance from most clubs on ticket sales. On that basis, I'd suggest that clubs would not fold, and indeed some could prosper in a fair and competitive domestic game. (Similar to the Championship)

The OF will never leave in reality, but I think the doom mongers predicting clubs going to the wall (St J and Livi would likely struggle due to virtually zero fanbase) are wide of the mark.

It's also pretty bleak to read that a lot of our fans view the OF as necessary to survival, that's exactly the subservient attitude that successive boards- (of all clubs) have had, and led us to where we are currently. We allow them to ride over the top of us (in a variety of ways) and we just meekly accept it.

Give me a reduction in quality (we're ***** anyway, Euro results for at least the last 15 years for ourselves, Sheep hearts support this) for a league setup that isn't totally rigged from the get go. :aok:

Please don't dismiss people who are answering the OPs question differently to you as "doom mongers". You're not being dismissed as romantic fantasists or accused of unicorn thinking.

It's a discussion. Without different viewpoints, it wouldn't be happening.

[Hibbyradge]

Genuine question (not just aimed at you, your post just seems the most relevant) but how do the likes of Denmark, Sweden, Norway etc get such cracking TV deals when they don't have any clubs the size of the OF? Even taking away the OF attendances, the likes of us, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee teams get decent crowds compared to our Scandi brothers but are miles and miles behind.



It's like we're drug addicts in Scotland - hooked on the OF as they slowly suck the life from the game.

It's because they don't have the EPL on their doorstep.

[Hibee Daft]

You're comparing a league from a country with 55 million people against one with 5.5 million people.

I remember the old League set up (just), it was pretty gash.


Since the SPL 12 team league setup theres only been 7 occasions when a team outside the old firm has been either 1st or second. In its 25 year history. (Thats including rangers not being in the league, so really only hearts)

If you look at prior to switching to 12 team league and use the 25 years as comparison so 1973 to 1998. There was 18 times a team outside the old firm finished 1st or 2nd.

[malcolm]

Since the SPL 12 team league setup theres only been 7 occasions when a team outside the old firm has been either 1st or second. In its 25 year history. (Thats including rangers not being in the league, so really only hearts)

If you look at prior to switching to 12 team league and use the 25 years as comparison so 1973 to 1998. There was 18 times a team outside the old firm finished 1st or 2nd.

Not playing the OF 8 times in the league meant that final total points were not so dependent on these games for all the other teams and any results got against the gruesome two by any of the other teams helped the rest get closer.

[bod]

It would be wore because all you’d get is “ if glasgows big two were in it you’d never have won it “

[HoboHarry]

It would be wore because all you’d get is “ if glasgows big two were in it you’d never have won it “
Would you honestly care about that being said? Who cares what they think, I wouldn't, sooner they are gone the better. I'd drive them down to England for free, hell I'd pay for the hire of the bus.

[snedzuk]

Get rid of Celtc and The Rangers (and VAR) and you might be onto something.

[Hibee Daft]

Not playing the OF 8 times in the league meant that final total points were not so dependent on these games for all the other teams and any results got against the gruesome two by any of the other teams helped the rest get closer.

Yeah thats why i think we should revert back to that with the ultimatium of if not we will form our own league without celtic or rangers.

I think if we still had that league structure teams would see even more success as crowd attendances isnt as important financially now

[Donegal Hibby]

Whose attendances would increase?

Certainly not the teams who won't have a chance of winning the league which in most years would be everyone barHibs, Hertz and the Sheep.

Every other team would see a huge dent in their gate money. Last season, Livingston's entire attendance was 71,766. Over 27,000 of that came from their 3 games against Rantic. That's getting on for close to 40% of their income. How do they make up for the loss of that along with the TV money and sponsorship? :dunno:

Even if our attendances increased, we're not going to be getting 35000 every week into a stadium that holds shy of 20.5k. We averaged around 17.5k last season so the scope to increase our income in order to make up for the loss of TV cash and sponsorship is extremely limited.

I agree the teams in a relegation wouldn't see there attendance increase though at the minute if we had no old firm we'd have 5 points separating 5 teams in a title race and that's not taking into account Aberdeen coming back which they probably will as supposed to the 3rd place team being something like 14 points behind already.

Sevco will more than likely win the league cup with the Scottish cup going to one side of Glasgow too . Best of the rest is as much as any of us are playing for these days . Though a league without the uglies would bring more optimism and more fans to a lot of clubs in the hope that " This is our year " wither dreaming of a league title or cup .

I agree totally about the TV cash , sponsorship money being a massive downside to losing the old firm though there is other countries without clubs like the old firm that seem to do reasonably well on TV and sponsorship deals . On the financial side losing them would probably be bad though from purely footballing point of view it would make Scottish football more competitive and exciting which most fans would like I think .

[Paulie Walnuts]

I wonder how much TV revenue makes up as a proportion of SPL clubs income? I'd guess fairly low (maybe in the region of 20-30% on average?), given the reliance from most clubs on ticket sales. On that basis, I'd suggest that clubs would not fold, and indeed some could prosper in a fair and competitive domestic game. (Similar to the Championship)

The OF will never leave in reality, but I think the doom mongers predicting clubs going to the wall (St J and Livi would likely struggle due to virtually zero fanbase) are wide of the mark.

It's also pretty bleak to read that a lot of our fans view the OF as necessary to survival, that's exactly the subservient attitude that successive boards- (of all clubs) have had, and led us to where we are currently. We allow them to ride over the top of us (in a variety of ways) and we just meekly accept it.

Give me a reduction in quality (we're ***** anyway, Euro results for at least the last 15 years for ourselves, Sheep hearts support this) for a league setup that isn't totally rigged from the get go. :aok:

For us, Hearts and Aberdeen it’s likely around 25%.

For all the smaller clubs, it’s likely to be closer to 40% or so and for the likes of Livingston and St Johnstone it’s probably about 60 - 70%. Livingston for example had a turnover of £2.7m apparently. Their prize money from all competitions was £1.675m. Throw in the fact they’d lose about 30-40% of their overall gate money and they’d be in a terrible place with a turnover akin to a half decent building firm. They’d also not benefit from an increase in crowds as they’d still have no realistic chance of winning the league, same with St Johnstone. In fact I’d suggest next to nobody would have a chance except Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen such is the other teams reliance on the OF.

Folk reckon Scottish football would become more competitive but the other teams wouldn’t be able to come close to absorbing the loss of the OF like the ‘new big 3’ would. It would just be us taking over from them, everyone else would still be in the same boat as they are now, unable to compete and the overall standard would be howfin.

Another hit teams would take would be player sales. Motherwell sold about £6m of talent in the last 5 years. Once the money went and the standard drops they’d never have those players in the first place and they sure as hell wouldn’t be getting £3m for anyone off the back of them playing in a league that would likely have part time sides in it.

[Brightside]

The idea that attendances would increase is mental. Are some suggesting that people don't go because of the old firm? Always some great excuses for not going to football. The reality is people will go if they want to go. It has nothing to do with the old firm.

[neil7908]

The idea that attendances would increase is mental. Are some suggesting that people don't go because of the old firm? Always some great excuses for not going to football. The reality is people will go if they want to go. It has nothing to do with the old firm.

I appreciate this won't be the case for all clubs in the SPL but from a Hibs side, do you not think we'd sell more tickets if we were challenging for the league title? I certainly think so.

[Donegal Hibby]

I appreciate this won't be the case for all clubs in the SPL but from a Hibs side, do you not think we'd sell more tickets if we were challenging for the league title? I certainly think so.

So do I , you could go one step further in Hibs at home to Aberdeen and hertz away to Dundee final day of the season in a 3 way fight for the title .

[Paulie Walnuts]

I appreciate this won't be the case for all clubs in the SPL but from a Hibs side, do you not think we'd sell more tickets if we were challenging for the league title? I certainly think so.

I’m 33 and I’ve seen us be best of the rest 3 times. Off the top of my head we’ve only genuinely challenged to be best of the rest in the 17/18 season and missed out. Every other season we’ve never really threatened to be best of the rest.

From a Hibs POV, based on how we have been as a club for the last 33 years, we wouldn’t even challenge for the title all that often. Although I appreciate that the fact the other teams would be of a very poor standard changes the whole landscape somewhat as I don’t think the others would be able to absorb the loss of the Old Firm well enough to compete with us so you’d likely never see Motherwell etc finishing top anymore.

[Brightside]

I appreciate this won't be the case for all clubs in the SPL but from a Hibs side, do you not think we'd sell more tickets if we were challenging for the league title? I certainly think so.

But it would be a league title with the level and prestige of the LOI tbh.

[Since90+2]

But it would be a league title with the level and prestige of the LOI tbh.

How would it be the level the league of Ireland?

The highest average attendance in that league is 6000 with the next two being 4000.

We'd get more alone than their 3 biggest clubs added together. Us and Hearts combined would get more than their entire league.

[DIXIHIBS]

Another consideration is if the OF went south that young football fans would turn away from the scottish game even more if the OF were playing man city liverpool etc. Kids love the EPL as it is..imagine if scottish teams played in it. The media coverage just now is bad enough...it would be even worse.

[Crunchie]

But it would be a league title with the level and prestige of the LOI tbh.
There's nothing mental about it at all, if Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen were winning and in contention for winning the league we'd be playing to full houses.

[eastmainsmsh]

Better but wouldn’t be against an 18 team top flight with 36 games

[HoboHarry]

I'm genuinely surprised at how many are supporting the Glesga uglies staying.

[The Modfather]

But it would be a league title with the level and prestige of the LOI tbh.

What’s the current prestige in there being a glass ceiling of 3rd for all Scottish clubs outside of Celtc & Rangers.

[Crunchie]

What’s the current prestige in there being a glass ceiling of 3rd for all Scottish clubs outside of Celtc & Rangers.
:wink:

[nonshinyfinish]

It's because they don't have the EPL on their doorstep.

That may be a factor (although the EPL is also pretty popular in Scandinavia), but the main difference is that the Scandinavian leagues’ tv deals are for a much larger number of games – almost all top-flight games are televised and so the fixtures are spread out at all sorts of times across the weekend.

[Brightside]

:wink:

So your answer is to make the league weaker and financially poorer. You know there is nothing stop all the other clubs creating their own league. Why do you think they haven’t done that.

[Brightside]

There's nothing mental about it at all, if Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen were winning and in contention for winning the league we'd be playing to full houses.

But only if it’s a tenner a ticket if you believe some people that post on here. But I suppose the players will be cheaper too so I’m sure it will all work out.

[Smartie]

So your answer is to make the league weaker and financially poorer. You know there is nothing stop all the other clubs creating their own league. Why do you think they haven’t done that.

Stockholm syndrome.

[The Modfather]

But only if it’s a tenner a ticket if you believe some people that post on here. But I suppose the players will be cheaper too so I’m sure it will all work out.

A league fundamentally underpinned by a necessity to bring through your own youngsters and focus on youth academies is a league I could readily buy into.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm genuinely surprised at how many are supporting the Glesga uglies staying.

No-one is supporting anything, ffs. We're all just answering a hypothetical question.

[Hibbyradge]

That may be a factor (although the EPL is also pretty popular in Scandinavia), but the main difference is that the Scandinavian leagues’ tv deals are for a much larger number of games – almost all top-flight games are televised and so the fixtures are spread out at all sorts of times across the weekend.

Learnt something today 👍

[GreenCastle]

The idea that attendances would increase is mental. Are some suggesting that people don't go because of the old firm? Always some great excuses for not going to football. The reality is people will go if they want to go. It has nothing to do with the old firm.

Teams have shown when in the championship or a Ayrshire derby / Dundee derby etc crowds increase / sell out more than games against Old Firm.

I know plenty folk who don’t both with old firm games at ER. One to do with kids and not wanting them to attend and the other they think it’s a total waste of time as 90% of the time the Old Firm win.

Why does the Derby sell out so quickly ?

Times are changing and folk aren’t going to old firm games as much as they used to - just look at those in attendance last few games at ER.

As someone else mentioned the old firm would leave Scotland without a thought and they basically run the game up here and we are all just being taken for a ride but many won’t admit it.

It’s amazing Hibs get as good crowds as they do considering the gulf in finances and we don’t win many trophies.

[Pretty Boy]

There was a stat on Twitter today, which I checked and it seems to be accurate.

St Mirren capped away fans at 1600 last season for all clubs so attendance was largely driven by how many home fans turned up. Their biggest crowds were:

7937 v Kilmarnock
7394 v Aberdeen
7253 v Hibs
7249 v Hearts
7248 v Hearts
6939 v Celtic
6785 v Kilmarnock
6424 v Motherwell
6358v Rangers

Maybe the appeal of Rangers and Celtic isn't as key to fans through the doors as some seem to believe. Looking at that list the biggest crowds were against clubs who were rivals for a top 6 spot. Imagine what they could be if St Mirren, Hibs and Hearts were in the running to actually win the league.

[Pretty Boy]

There might be a difference in tv money earned.
And sponsors exposure to a tv audience may be an income to include.
And…… any team winning the league would be ‘league winners *’

Of course. I'm realistic about the problems Celtic and Rangers leaving would present.

I just don't think there would be a catastrophic desertion by fans though. Fans through the gate in Scotland really isn't driven by the quality of football on show in the same way it is for a not insignificant percentage in England. We don't have all that many people paying top whack for the experience or to take a picture of an opposing player celebrating.

As I said previously in the thread if quality of football on show was the biggest driver of attendances in Scotland then most of us would have walked away a long, long time ago. I think the St Mirren figures above show that the quality of opposition is largely irrelevant as well; no fan of St Mirren (or Hibs for that matter) is more inclined to go to a game v Celtic or Rangers because they get to see Kyogo or Cantwell any more than they want to go to a game v Aberdeen to see Shinnie. I'm no more inclined to go to ER if it's one of those 2 in town, I'd go as far as to say I see it as more of a chore these days, particularly Rangers. A game against Aberdeen this weekend is far more appealing.

There is plenty to consider if Celtic and Rangers were to go, sadly including the loss of their travelling supports. I just don't think loss of support among the clubs own fanbases is one of those problems. Again to go back to what I said earlier my experience meeting younger guys at lower league and non league games is that supporting a local club is pretty cool again and it's jumping on the OF or EPL bandwagon that is seen as a bit naff.

[judas]

I think we should all apply to join the English league. Playing every season with the prospect of promotion or relegation is an exciting prospect.

We’d probably bounce between leagues 1 and the championship, but we would become a far better investment prospect and would break the old firm tedium. Possibilities are greater than they are here imho.

Not sure the FA would accept us though and the antiquated ‘jobs for the boys‘ SFA would look to preserve itself.

[Ship of Hope]

The notion that tv money revenue would drop if OF left may not be as bad as some imagine. Correct me if I’m wrong but do the uglies not get 40% of existing deal between them with remaining 60% split between everyone else? My preference would be they stayed but to restructure / start again with top two divisions of 12 teams splitting 8/8/8.. top 8 title/europe, bottom 4 and top four fighting it out for relegation/promotion, third 8 playing to avoid relegation from second tier. All points returned to zero when leagues split and play home and away for prizes. All prize money split evenly in each pot (top 8 teams prize money is the same no matter whether finish 1st or 8th.) And of course an equal division of tv money. I personally enjoy the bigger games and the bile the old firm spout is just a stick to bash them with and makes beating them all the sweeter. Hopefully we get some new investment and can be more competitive against them more regularly. The clubs should be thinking now how to revise the tv deal as the time to make changes is before the next one is negotiated.

[GreenCastle]

Of course. I'm realistic about the problems Celtic and Rangers leaving would present.

I just don't think there would be a catastrophic desertion by fans though. Fans through the gate in Scotland really isn't driven by the quality of football on show in the same way it is for a not insignificant percentage in England. We don't have all that many people paying top whack for the experience or to take a picture of an opposing player celebrating.

As I said previously in the thread if quality of football on show was the biggest driver of attendances in Scotland then most of us would have walked away a long, long time ago. I think the St Mirren figures above show that the quality of opposition is largely irrelevant as well; no fan of St Mirren (or Hibs for that matter) is more inclined to go to a game v Celtic or Rangers because they get to see Kyogo or Cantwell any more than they want to go to a game v Aberdeen to see Shinnie. I'm no more inclined to go to ER if it's one of those 2 in town, I'd go as far as to say I see it as more of a chore these days, particularly Rangers. A game against Aberdeen this weekend is far more appealing.

There is plenty to consider if Celtic and Rangers were to go, sadly including the loss of their travelling supports. I just don't think loss of support among the clubs own fanbases is one of those problems. Again to go back to what I said earlier my experience meeting younger guys at lower league and non league games is that supporting a local club is pretty cool again and it's jumping on the OF or EPL bandwagon that is seen as a bit naff.

100% agree.

I go to watch Hibs - I rarely who think maybe playing for the opposition unless it was Barca or Villa but the Old Firm players - zero interest.

Could even say I get more excited seeing an ex Hibs player come back than an old firm player.

[GreenCastle]

I think we should all apply to join the English league. Playing every season with the prospect of promotion or relegation is an exciting prospect.

We’d probably bounce between leagues 1 and the championship, but we would become a far better investment prospect and would break the old firm tedium. Possibilities are greater than they are here imho.

Not sure the FA would accept us though and the antiquated ‘jobs for the boys‘ SFA would look to preserve itself.

Not the worst idea but few issues..

Chance of Europe ever happening again would be near impossible.

We could lose the Edinburgh Derby.

Some crazy long away trips = cost.

Club costs would go up as players would need to stay over night before most away games.

Finally playing lower English tier to then get promoted would take several years to get us anywhere remotely close to a decent level. It would be harder to get out these leagues than we realise.

[Eyrie]

I think we should all apply to join the English league. Playing every season with the prospect of promotion or relegation is an exciting prospect.

We’d probably bounce between leagues 1 and the championship, but we would become a far better investment prospect and would break the old firm tedium. Possibilities are greater than they are here imho.

Not sure the FA would accept us though and the antiquated ‘jobs for the boys‘ SFA would look to preserve itself.

Gods, no.

We may start a season with the prospect of promotion or relegation but by Christmas it would be clear how our season is going, and that may well be the tedium of meaningless mid-table matches.

And given how cut throat the Championship is down south, it would require a massive investment to make any difference to our prospects compared to what would make a difference up here.

[Eyrie]

The notion that tv money revenue would drop if OF left may not be as bad as some imagine. Correct me if I’m wrong but do the uglies not get 40% of existing deal between them with remaining 60% split between everyone else? My preference would be they stayed but to restructure / start again with top two divisions of 12 teams splitting 8/8/8.. top 8 title/europe, bottom 4 and top four fighting it out for relegation/promotion, third 8 playing to avoid relegation from second tier. All points returned to zero when leagues split and play home and away for prizes. All prize money split evenly in each pot (top 8 teams prize money is the same no matter whether finish 1st or 8th.) And of course an equal division of tv money. I personally enjoy the bigger games and the bile the old firm spout is just a stick to bash them with and makes beating them all the sweeter. Hopefully we get some new investment and can be more competitive against them more regularly. The clubs should be thinking now how to revise the tv deal as the time to make changes is before the next one is negotiated.

I've been in favour of a 12/12-8/8/8 format since the late 80s as it creates a far more fluid promotion/relegation situation so going down isn't the disaster it is at present. That in turn means we'd play more varied opposition over the course of 2-3 seasons than at present and the only teams we'd face four times (of which only two are at Easter Road) are the teams we'd be directly competing against which keeps it interesting.

I wouldn't reset the points entirely for the 8/8/8 but instead would start teams with one point for each win they had during the 12/12 against other teams in their 8/8/8.

I'd also keep higher prize money for higher placings, but without the big advantage to the top two places that we have at present.

Below the 12/12-8/8/8 I'd merge and regionalise the First and Second divisions to reduce travel costs. The winners of Division North and Division South get automatic promotion and the third promotion place goes to the winner of a play off following two 2nd vs 3rd semis.

[A Hi-Bee]

Get them both to **** out of Scotland the atillas can go to NornIrelend while the smellic can go south to Eire.
Simples, we can then watch football as it was meant to be.
:aok:

[Yorkshire HFC]

Get them both to **** out of Scotland the atillas can go to NornIrelend while the smellic can go south to Eire.
Simples, we can then watch football as it was meant to be.
:aok:

I don't understand how getting rid of the two best teams will make Scottish football better.

Is it not the responsibility of the other teams to get better?

[Brightside]

I’m watching hearts v killie. It’s awful stuff. Anyone thinking we’d get any kind of tv deal for this dross is in dream land.

[cubehindthegoal]

I don't understand how getting rid of the two best teams will make Scottish football better.

Is it not the responsibility of the other teams to get better?

I think your argument makes the case for better actually, as it’s completely impossible for other teams to get sufficiently better to win the league due to the stranglehold of the old firm, which has only grown since the eighties - when Aberdeen and Dundee Utd rose to the challenge for a few years, only for the rangers, then celtic following, to up the ante so it suppressed any (then) current and future uprising of the minions.

[Eyrie]

I don't understand how getting rid of the two best teams will make Scottish football better.

Is it not the responsibility of the other teams to get better?

I understand how getting rid of the two bigot teams will make Scottish football better.

I understand how getting rid of the two mega spending teams will make Scottish football better.

It's the responsibility of the other teams to get rid of them.

[A Hi-Bee]

I don't understand how getting rid of the two best teams will make Scottish football better.

Is it not the responsibility of the other teams to get better?

From the level playing field that is Scottish football, sorry but you dont know what you speak about.
:faf:

[GreenCastle]

I’m watching hearts v killie. It’s awful stuff. Anyone thinking we’d get any kind of tv deal for this dross is in dream land.

We don’t get many non old firm games anyway on TV so not much difference.

No one is saying Scottish would be amazing if old firm left but it would be more enjoyable and less of a dead rubber every season.

Do folk genuinely enjoy games against them getting beat more often than not.

Ok the odd occasion we have a Boyle hatrick game which are brilliant but they are rare sadly.

[Brightside]

We don’t get many non old firm games anyway on TV so not much difference.

No one is saying Scottish would be amazing if old firm left but it would be more enjoyable and less of a dead rubber every season.

Do folk genuinely enjoy games against them getting beat more often than not.

Ok the odd occasion we have a Boyle hatrick game which are brilliant but they are rare sadly.

Yeh but our tv sales come from the old firm is my point. It’s a nice idea but I don’t see anything commercially sensible in removing the 2 biggest globally supported clubs from our league.

[cubehindthegoal]

Yeh but our tv sales come from the old firm is my point. It’s a nice idea but I don’t see anything commercially sensible in removing the 2 biggest globally supported clubs from our league.

I don’t have the facts to hand, but I’m guessing the old firm get the majority of the tv money split over the 12 clubs … so if the sum remaining for the other ten clubs was compared to a new tv deal without the old firm … I wonder, would we get that much less per non-old firm club?

As I say I don’t have the facts n figures … but would be worth considering. And of course finances aside, I’ve been once away to the home grounds of each of these two, fair few years ago, and vowed never to return to each after each game. And I haven’t. That means more than money ever will, in my view.