Demographic heritage

[HibsBragh]

Just trying to understand a bit of hibs history - when did are support go from mostly Irish background to a more general Edinburgh following. I know the famous 5 played a big part in this but was this change already happening pre war. And when we moved away from the harp badge and to a more generalised identity how many supporters did we lose to Celtic. Curious to know what the percentages were in the early years.


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[Mick O'Rourke]

Just trying to understand a bit of hibs history - when did are support go from mostly Irish background to a more general Edinburgh following. I know the famous 5 played a big part in this but was this change already happening pre war. And when we moved away from the harp badge and to a more generalised identity how many supporters did we lose to Celtic. Curious to know what the percentages were in the early years.
- I know this can be a sensitive issue to some but genuinely just curious. All hibs fans are one in the same anyway. GG


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Topic was discussed not so long ago on here.
Check the archive for those comments.
I am not "sensitive" about the roots of my family in the Cowgate/Grassmarket and their connection to Hibernian FC
I am proud of that.

You could also try to get hold of Alan Lugton's great trilogy of books.
"The Making of Hibernian"

[HibsBragh]

Ye your right not sensitive at all. Think I was just conflating this question with the flag debate.

sorry about that.

Have edited the above


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[BS44]

Just trying to understand a bit of hibs history - when did are support go from mostly Irish background to a more general Edinburgh following. I know the famous 5 played a big part in this but was this change already happening pre war. And when we moved away from the harp badge and to a more generalised identity how many supporters did we lose to Celtic. Curious to know what the percentages were in the early years.


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You can't say with any certainty, but the huge growth in Hibs attendances post-WW2 (https://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/club_records_league_attendance.php) is a point of significant social change. That increase could not have come from the the Irish/Catholic population which number around 90,000 at the time (https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dsaae.html).

[BILLYHIBS]

Good shout by Mick The Making of Hibernian trilogy by Alan Lugton is a brilliant labour of love and well worth a read if you can get your hands on them and the immigrant Irish influence on our support and founding fathers is well documented

Certainly in the early days Hibs had a huge following in the West of Scotland and indeed Hibs played a lot of charity games through there for local causes also managing to attract many quality recruits for the first team

A situation jealousy coveted by the new club Glasgow Celtic who played their part in putting Hibs out of business for a few years

The level of support for Hibs in the West continued up until the ‘ Green Final’ in the 1920’s

In the 1930’s after having a policy of signing only Roman Catholics Hibs became a strictly non sectarian club

My own roots can be traced back to County Mayo and then Leith in the 19th century

GGTTH

[The Harp]

Fine contributions from Mick O'Rourke and BillyHibs on this one. The Club has evolved over the years into the club we all know and love.

My own background is Irish, with roots in Co. Wexford, Monaghan and Sligo. My great grandparents settled in Edinburgh's Cowgate and in Liverpool - hence my Hibs and Everton connection.

Most of my Hibs supporting pals, are now in their mid 70s, like me, and have similar backgrounds to my own.

As mentioned above Alan Lugton's superb trilogy is essential reading for anyone interested in our club's history.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good shout by Mick The Making of Hibernian trilogy by Alan Lugton is a brilliant labour of love and well worth a read if you can get your hands on them and the immigrant Irish influence on our support and founding fathers is well documented

Certainly in the early days Hibs had a huge following in the West of Scotland and indeed Hibs played a lot of charity games through there for local causes also managing to attract many quality recruits for the first team

A situation jealousy coveted by the new club Glasgow Celtic who played their part in putting Hibs out of business for a few years

The level of support for Hibs in the West continued up until the ‘ Green Final’ in the 1920’s

In the 1930’s after having a policy of signing only Roman Catholics Hibs became a strictly non sectarian club

My own roots can be traced back to County Mayo and then Leith in the 19th century

GGTTH

The “Catholic only” policy ended when Hibs were reanimated by Philip Farmer & co in 1892. Calling it sectarian is a bit misleading as the club was originally formed as part of the CYMS.

[Kato]

The “Catholic only” policy ended when Hibs were reanimated by Philip Farmer & co in 1892. Calling it sectarian is a bit misleading as the club was originally formed as part of the CYMS.Even before then non-catholics had played for Hibs in exhibition/friendly matches as "guests". The idea that Hibs were "Catholic only" up to the 1930's is a new one on me.

Any amateur club is perfectly within its rights to restrict its membership. I'm sure Ferranti Thistle weren't too keen on playing employees from Browns. Once professional a restrictive employment policy based on religion can truly be called sectarian.

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[McD]

I’m not from a catholic background, both sides of my father’s family were Hibs fans, with both my Grandparents being born in the 1920s, and I know that at least one of my great grandfathers attended Easter road for every home game, so they were Hibs fans preceding the 20s

[BILLYHIBS]

The “Catholic only” policy ended when Hibs were reanimated by Philip Farmer & co in 1892. Calling it sectarian is a bit misleading as the club was originally formed as part of the CYMS.

Yip the club was formed under the auspices of the Catholic Young Mens Society to give young Catholic men a healthy interest and presumably to keep them away from the demon drink and out of trouble

As you rightly say the team from 1892 onwards was transformed from being an amateur team to being a professional one and was run as a business as opposed to a charity open to any player that wanted to play for them and anyone in the community that wanted to support them was welcome

Hibs were careful of the wording of their new non sectarian policy Charles Sandilands had to word his motion diplomatically as this would be a once and for all final vote on Hibs’ future direction and had to appeal to Hibs’ traditional bread and butter Irish support while at the same time opening up the club to all

Thomas Flood was recruited from Celtic to help guide us through the transition from an amateur to a professional club and to help get us back into the main stream of Scottish football and getting us accepted into the Scottish Second Division and even being appointed as it’s Treasurer

Charity games were still a hallmark of Hibernian and they continued to play many games to help local causes and the families of old players playing many games against Celtic and Rangers to help boost attendances

It is worth pointing out that it took non sectarian Hibs 59 years to appoint Harry Swan a Protestant from outside the Irish community not only as a Director but as Chairman a long overdue decision and he would go on to serve us with great distinction for 29 years

[Mick O'Rourke]

Even before then non-catholics had played for Hibs in exhibition/friendly matches as "guests". The idea that Hibs were "Catholic only" up to the 1930's is a new one on me.

Any amateur club is perfectly within its rights to restrict its membership. I'm sure Ferranti Thistle weren't too keen on playing employees from Browns. Once professional a restrictive employment policy based on religion can truly be called sectarian.

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It was other teams that had a sectarian or more anti Irish attitude towards us.
A did many parts of the City's "community", as the Old Town filled with Irish, Italian and Jewish immmigrants,fleeing religious persecution,extreme poverty ,hunger,disease and famine.


I would say our founding players and those Irish Catholics before them that say went to the Meedies after Mass on a Sunday looking for a game .
Got a knock back from "locals" for no other reason than they were Irish,Catholic or both.
So starting their own inclusive team was the only option at the beginning.
Other teams soon found out they could play a bit !!

All going well till the envious green eyed monsters in the East End of Glasgow swooped with promises of bags of money.
Our game then was near "up the pole" in terms of inclusiveness of who we signed.

Edit
Just read Billys post !
Yes it was circumstances outwith our control initially (Celtic raids/bribes on our players) that led to many changes in recruitment policy.
And i guess some real animosity toward the new glasgow team at that time from our players and supporters.
Stole our colours, players. (could be said they tried to do a Mercer on us!)
Badge and name they would have coveted then as well.

If it wisnae fir the Hibees ........
We were first to wear ......

[Brizo]

Just trying to understand a bit of hibs history - when did are support go from mostly Irish background to a more general Edinburgh following. I know the famous 5 played a big part in this but was this change already happening pre war. And when we moved away from the harp badge and to a more generalised identity how many supporters did we lose to Celtic. Curious to know what the percentages were in the early years.


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I know from speaking with my late Dad and my Uncles and Aunties that as early as the 1930s a section of Hibs original Irish background support from the Old Town and Southside had switched to Celtic. They felt that Hibs were becoming too distanced from their origins. While people might look back now and be critical of their decision the 1930's was a time when anti-Irish and anti-Catholic views were rife in the city. John Cormacks Edinburgh -based Protestant Action party was calling for people of Irish catholic origin to be repatriated to Ireland (sadly repeated in song form by the **** this century "the famines over, its time to go home") and they won circa 35% of the Town Council election votes in the mid-1930s.

It's against that background that an element of Hibs support switched to the lesser greens. As to numbers, my Dad said that he grew up with lots of Celtic supporters in the 30's and 40s so while it wasn't at 1967 and later glory-hunting levels it was already happening to a degree. I'm just pleased we stayed with Hibs and a family connection from 1875 until now.

Tom Gallagher's book "Edinburgh Divided" is a fascinating account of that era. It mentions that in the 1930s some Leith-based Protestant Action supporters were also supporting Hibs, obviously being able to draw a line between supporting a club founded by the Irish immigrant community and wanting to send their descendants back to Ireland.

As Ive mentioned in previous similar threads , although the Harp remained on the stadium wall until the mid 50's , from the end of WW2 onwards the crest that Hibs used to represent itself to the world was the Edinburgh coat of arms amended to include a football and the name "Edinburgh Hibernian". This appeared on club correspondence, club blazers , the Coronation Cup Final programme etc while the crest used to represent Hibs on the 1947/48 League Championship medals was a castle and an anchor with the name "Edinburgh Hibernian".

This change coincided with the Famous Five and also with the post-war football boom. Pre -war Hibs had regularly played to crowds of under 10,000 and post-war played to crowds of over 40,000 and over 50,000. Most of these new Hibs fans would have had no connections with the club's origins so it seems it was a marketing strategy to make the club more welcoming to this new support and no doubt also a reflection of the post-war Hibernian Board which no longer contained anyone with any family connections back to 1875.

As others have said Alan Lugtons trilogy is great reading and the definitive story of our history from 1875 until the outbreak of WW2.

[Mick O'Rourke]

Brizo
Some in the old town/southside started their own CSC Branch. Its still running !!
1950s, that was
Ill feeling toward Harry Swan and the Celtic Park removal of Irish tricolour debate/debacle that pointed (wrongly,say many ) the finger at Harry,seemed to be the catylyst,instigator of "rebellion"
Harry took some stick on all sides .
I remember as a boy hearing older fans at Easter Road and on "away" buses singing /
"We'll hang Harry Swan ,wae a rope aroon his neck"
A man who without doubt had great vision for the club/ game and progress .
Look at all those "firsts in football" we started/had !!

[Kato]

Charity games were still a hallmark of Hibernian and they continued to play many games to help local causes and the families of old players playing many games against Celtic and Rangers to help boost attendances



It's worth pointing out that (according to Lugton) the pre-1920's Rangers, before the influx of workers from Belfast to Glasgow, didn't have a problem playing charity games alongside Hibs.

Celtic on the other hand were very reluctant to take part in charity matches - even for their own alleged charity. Once the Glasses took hold it was more or less a fully capitalist enterprise out to make profit for a few families, until Fergus McCann broke that hold on them.



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[BILLYHIBS]

It's worth pointing out that (according to Lugton) the pre-1920's Rangers, before the influx of workers from Belfast to Glasgow, didn't have a problem playing charity games alongside Hibs.

Celtic on the other hand were very reluctant to take part in charity matches - even for their own alleged charity. Once the Glasses took hold it was more or less a fully capitalist enterprise out to make profit for a few families, until Fergus McCann broke that hold on them.



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Yip Hibs played Rangers to help generate funds to build St Mary’s Star of The Sea according to Lugton

Pretty sure Celtic and Hearts voted against us being accepted into the Scottish League after we had won the inaugural Scottish Second Division and had to win it for a second successive year before being allowed to dine at the top table of Scottish football