OLD FIRM versus the rest.

[HIBS NUTS]

At what point are most fans , going to realise that we are going to get beat in the vast majority of these games, against the old firm, with some hammerings handed out.
Hibs played poorly yesterday, but it’s not because of lack of effort, it’s because the old firm have millions of pounds more than us, and still get decisions, VAR or not.
Occasionally we will get a result, as will other teams.
We are playing in a league of 10, against the rest.
We are down the league, because of our horrendous first three games.
Yes we might get a result against Celtic next week, but it won’t define our season.

[B.H.F.C]

At what point are most fans , going to realise that we are going to get beat in the vast majority of these games, against the old firm, with some hammerings handed out.
Hibs played poorly yesterday, but it’s not because of lack of effort, it’s because the old firm have millions of pounds more than us, and still get decisions, VAR or not.
Occasionally we will get a result, as will other teams.
We are playing in a league of 10, against the rest.
We are down the league, because of our horrendous first three games.
Yes we might get a result against Celtic next week, but it won’t define our season.

I can accept we will get beaten, more often than not, by Rangers and Celtic.

One point I disagree with is about effort. I didn’t think we gave everything we could yesterday, especially in the second half. Thought we looked a beaten team, from the moment the first goal went in really. There were things that we did wrong yesterday that were nothing to do with their millions. There has been a few games against them lately where we’ve not really been able to walk off saying we gave it our best and yesterday was one of them for me.

[heretoday]

I don't know why we bother with Scottish football really. A club like ours has the chance of winning a trophy once every ten years or so. The whole show is dominated by the Old Firm and they get all the breaks going. Players are B-list quality at best. Oh gawd!

[Eyrie]

I don't know why we bother with Scottish football really. A club like ours has the chance of winning a trophy once every ten years or so. The whole show is dominated by the Old Firm and they get all the breaks going. Players are B-list quality at best. Oh gawd!

We're Hibs fans regardless of how unlikely a trophy is. And if one does arrive, we can enjoy the fact that we've won it and not just bought yet another one.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't know why we bother with Scottish football really. A club like ours has the chance of winning a trophy once every ten years or so. The whole show is dominated by the Old Firm and they get all the breaks going. Players are B-list quality at best. Oh gawd!

It's a curse.

The most evil kind of curse.

It's a bit like golf in that way. It's horrible and depressing and causes nothing but pain, except just as you're about to resign yourself to accepting the eternal misery, it gives you a little lift, a little joy, just enough to fool you, and give you hope, so you keep coming back for more wretchedness.

I moved hundreds of miles from Edinburgh to break the curse, but that's where it's evil is so insidious. Not only am I condemned to the same life of misery as I was previously, watching and hoping, I actually miss being there too and pay fortunes to return as often as possible.

F"*' Hibs.

[Soldiersteve]

It's a curse.

The most evil kind of curse.

It's a bit like golf in that way. It's horrible and depressing and causes nothing but pain, except just as you're about to resign yourself to accepting the eternal misery, it gives you a little lift, a little joy, just enough to fool you, and give you hope, so you keep coming back for more wretchedness.

I moved hundreds of miles from Edinburgh to break the curse, but that's where it's evil is so insidious. Not only am I condemned to the same life of misery as I was previously, watching and hoping, I actually miss being there too and pay fortunes to return as often as possible.

F"*' Hibs.
This! And still by a season ticket to use a max of 3 times a season!:confused:

[CentreLine]

It's a curse.

The most evil kind of curse.

It's a bit like golf in that way. It's horrible and depressing and causes nothing but pain, except just as you're about to resign yourself to accepting the eternal misery, it gives you a little lift, a little joy, just enough to fool you, and give you hope, so you keep coming back for more wretchedness.

I moved hundreds of miles from Edinburgh to break the curse, but that's where it's evil is so insidious. Not only am I condemned to the same life of misery as I was previously, watching and hoping, I actually miss being there too and pay fortunes to return as often as possible.

F"*' Hibs.

What a great post. Your pain is tangible. Stick in there HR, hopefully the club is on an upward trajectory and we’ll see a few more finals and cups before we turn up our toes. GGTTH

[Pretty Boy]

The gulf in the last few years has become even more extreme. The cups used to offer some respite but Celtic and Rangers have won 6 of the last 7 Scottish Cups (5 to Celtic). In the preceding 7 years Celtic won 2 and 5 other teams won 1 apiece. In the League Cup Celtic have won 6 of the last 7. Again the preceding 7 saw Rangers win 2, Celtic 1 and 4 other teams won one apiece.

That 7 year mark is when Rangers returned to the top league and Celtic appointed Rodgers first time around. It's also a period that has seen Celtic play group stage Champions League football 4 times and the riches that brings. Rangers did it once and had a couple of decent runs in the Europa League.

The league has been gone for 4 decades now but there looks a very real chance the cups are going the same way. It's bizarre really because if we came from elsewhere and drew Celtic or Rangers in Europe there would be resignation that we were going to lose because they outspend us by thousands of times to one. Yet because we play them domestically we have to think we can compete with them in one off games and in knockout competitions (I think even the most optimistic person knows we never will over a 38 games league season).

If you accept that us, Hearts and Aberdeen are the 3 biggest clubs outside Glasgow then our trophy hauls in recent years say it all. We have won 3 trophies in 32 years, Hearts 3 in 60 years and Aberdeen have a 33 year drought in the Scottish Cup and have won 2 League Cups in that time. It's not through lack of trying, it's purely financial and the Champions League and TV money (even the paltry sums in Scotland) ensure that status quo.

There is no solution. Celtic and Rangers can't go anywhere else and no one is going to agree to something radical like a salary cap. We really just have to accept that we'll get our turn at a trophy every decade or 2 and that's it.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I don't know why we bother with Scottish football really. A club like ours has the chance of winning a trophy once every ten years or so. The whole show is dominated by the Old Firm and they get all the breaks going. Players are B-list quality at best. Oh gawd!

A trophy every ten years or so really isn't that bad compared to the vast majority of clubs in Britain.

There's over a million people in Birmingham, villa have won nowt for nearly 3 decades, city have won 1 trophy in 60 years.

Spurs have won nothing for 15 years, then there's Newcastle, Sunderland, everton, leeds, Notts forest, Derby... football mad places and historic clubs who generally year after year win nothing. And then there's the dozens of smaller clubs whose supporters have to live with the fact they'll probably never see them win anything.

I'm 41. I know I'll never see us win the league in my life time (without structural change in the Scottish game or billionaire investment) but I've seen us win 3 cups, and come agonisingly close to at least 5 others. We could easily have won cup doubles in 2016 and 2021 ffs! We're really not that badly off.

[Paul1642]

It's a curse.

The most evil kind of curse.

It's a bit like golf in that way. It's horrible and depressing and causes nothing but pain, except just as you're about to resign yourself to accepting the eternal misery, it gives you a little lift, a little joy, just enough to fool you, and give you hope, so you keep coming back for more wretchedness.

I moved hundreds of miles from Edinburgh to break the curse, but that's where it's evil is so insidious. Not only am I condemned to the same life of misery as I was previously, watching and hoping, I actually miss being there too and pay fortunes to return as often as possible.

F"*' Hibs.

I have no doubt that I, and most other Hibs fans enjoyed May 2016 ten times more than any rangers or Celtic fan have ever enjoyed a domestic trophy win.

Further to that I really enjoy every single Hibs win and certain hard fought draws and just take our many defeats as just part of the game. I suspect most old firm fans take very little joy from winning any game that isn’t a derby or a European game whilst every defeat is a disaster.

As nice as winning most game sounds I wouldn’t swap it.

As for yesterday’s result it just doesn’t bother me so much. I disregard all old firm games as probable defeats and anything otherwise is a huge bonus. Next Saturday can pretty much be written of as a loss and the important game is next Tuesday.

Hearts getting equally as hammered as we did put any knee jerk disappointment into perspective.

[WeeRussell]

It's a curse.

The most evil kind of curse.

It's a bit like golf in that way. It's horrible and depressing and causes nothing but pain, except just as you're about to resign yourself to accepting the eternal misery, it gives you a little lift, a little joy, just enough to fool you, and give you hope, so you keep coming back for more wretchedness.

I moved hundreds of miles from Edinburgh to break the curse, but that's where it's evil is so insidious. Not only am I condemned to the same life of misery as I was previously, watching and hoping, I actually miss being there too and pay fortunes to return as often as possible.

F"*' Hibs.

Language!

[Forza Fred]

It's a curse.

The most evil kind of curse.

It's a bit like golf in that way. It's horrible and depressing and causes nothing but pain, except just as you're about to resign yourself to accepting the eternal misery, it gives you a little lift, a little joy, just enough to fool you, and give you hope, so you keep coming back for more wretchedness.

I moved hundreds of miles from Edinburgh to break the curse, but that's where it's evil is so insidious. Not only am I condemned to the same life of misery as I was previously, watching and hoping, I actually miss being there too and pay fortunes to return as often as possible.

F"*' Hibs.

:greengrin:top marks

[California-Hibs]

Yep, and it blows my mind how many people just can't come to terms with it. Folk saying Hibs are this and that, this players crap, whole team needs changed etc etc blah blah blah.

Facts are Celtic and Rangers are MILES in front of us all. They're closer in finance to the likes of Aston Villa, Liverpool etc than we are to both Glasgow teams. Let that sink in. Would Rangers or Celtic be viewed as having a good chance to take points off of a Liverpool etc. Of course not.

Well people are expecting an even bigger feat from us in actually beating one of the Old Firm! The fact is when it happens it's a combination of many things, us at the top of our game but much more importantly them having the majority of the team off it.

The stats don't lie in how often teams in our league beat them. It's few and far between for a reason, and folk make snap judgements on players etc from a defeat to the Old Firm is just plain daft. They SHOULD be spanking us every time, and folk might not want to hear it just that's just the way it is.

Of course we go in with hope and cross everything that we're going to have that 1 in 10 game against them, but the reality is it almost more than likely won't happen.

We play in a 10 team league where 3rd is always the best we can achieve. Accept it and move on ffs. And don't anyone come at me with 'loser mentality' stuff, but it's not, it's just the sad reality.

[HIBS NUTS]

Yep, and it blows my mind how many people just can't come to terms with it. Folk saying Hibs are this and that, this players crap, whole team needs changed etc etc blah blah blah.

Facts are Celtic and Rangers are MILES in front of us all. They're closer in finance to the likes of Aston Villa, Liverpool etc than we are to both Glasgow teams. Let that sink in. Would Rangers or Celtic be viewed as having a good chance to take points off of a Liverpool etc. Of course not.

Well people are expecting an even bigger feat from us in actually beating one of the Old Firm! The fact is when it happens it's a combination of many things, us at the top of our game but much more importantly them having the majority of the team off it.

The stats don't lie in how often teams in our league beat them. It's few and far between for a reason, and folk make snap judgements on players etc from a defeat to the Old Firm is just plain daft. They SHOULD be spanking us every time, and folk might not want to hear it just that's just the way it is.

Of course we go in with hope and cross everything that we're going to have that 1 in 10 game against them, but the reality is it almost more than likely won't happen.

We play in a 10 team league where 3rd is always the best we can achieve. Accept it and move on ffs. And don't anyone come at me with 'loser mentality' stuff, but it's not, it's just the sad reality.
When i started this thread, i was excepting the same rubbish i’ve read on other social media, the players don’t try, we need a new midfield, the defence is rubbish, we need a new goalkeeper, the formation 4-4-2 will not work.
All of these might be true, but i would rather we faced these questions, after playing teams of a similar budget.

[seanshow]

Whenever I've spoken to fans of those 2 and mentioned that we've been playing a dead league for approaching 40 years, they seem genuinely shocked about that attitude.
(and funnily enough have never looked at it that way)

That's cause your swimming in the Big Bigot Gravy Boat with your weegie chums mate.


......As a caveat to that, there has been nothing to stop Hibs stuffing the rest of the teams in the league in that time period with the benefit of continual European football and increased income, prestige etc.

That's no fault but the owners and management throughout the years.

[sean]

Whenever I've spoken to fans of those 2 and mentioned that we've been playing a dead league for approaching 40 years, they seem genuinely shocked about that attitude.
(and funnily enough have never looked at it that way)

That's cause your swimming in the Big Bigot Gravy Boat with your weegie chums mate.


......As a caveat to that, there has been nothing to stop Hibs stuffing the rest of the teams in the league in that time period with the benefit of continual European football and increased income, prestige etc.

That's no fault but the owners and management throughout the years.

Well said, only way you could possibly get any closer to any real extent is consistently qualifying for European group stage football.

To do that you need to finish 3rd every season, have good forward planning in your coaches/managers, successful player trading, good recruitment and all while staying ahead of your rivals.

As you say that’s on the club.

[Broken Gnome]

Well said, only way you could possibly get any closer to any real extent is consistently qualifying for European group stage football.

To do that you need to finish 3rd every season, have good forward planning in your coaches/managers, successful player trading, good recruitment and all while staying ahead of your rivals.

As you say that’s on the club.

I do think people underestimate how incredibly difficult it is for 40 clubs in Scotland to consistently achieve peak performance.

[Cod Boy]

And will still get folk moaning when they turn us over all the time

[Pretty Boy]

I do think people underestimate how incredibly difficult it is for 40 clubs in Scotland to consistently achieve peak performance.

It is difficult but we have never really achieved it on anything close to a consistent basis in 30 seasons, our form over that period is largely typified by under performance.

If you lose to Celtic and Rangers then it's expected and of course you will lose to other teams as well, even the aforementioned 2 manage that a few times a season. If you accept our budget over the years should have had us 5th most seasons then we have still pretty consistently under performed for 30+ years. Our league finishes in that time are:

7th
5th
3rd
5th
9th
Relegated
Promoted
6th
3rd
10th
7th
8th
3rd
4th
6th
6th
6th
4th
10th
11th
7th
Relegated
Championship
Championship
Promoted
4th
5th
7th
3rd
8th
5th

I've highlighted in red when I would argue we have fallen below expectations and when we have exceeded expectations in green and it's a pretty depressing list. Add to that we have seen really good chances go begging in cups with semi final and final defeats to the likes of St Johnstone, Livingston, Ross County, Ayr United, Falkirk and Dundee United. As with the league I have always accepted you will lose more than you win in the latter stages of cups against the Old Firm and arguably even Hearts and Aberdeen but we really shouldn't have passed up some of the chances like those above. There was almost a bizarre shrug of the shoulders acceptance among some (admittedly a minority) after the cup defeats to St Johnstone a couple of seasons back because 'we had 2016'. So what? St Johnstone tripled their entire trophy haul in a single season and it should have been us, we probably won't get such a glorious chance again.

If Hibs could get to a point at which we are consistently punching our weight every season then I would be pretty happy. The list above shows that we have never really done it consistently and a couple of seasons in a row before an inevitable dip is about all we manage.

[Broken Gnome]

It is difficult but we have never really achieved it on anything close to a consistent basis in 30 seasons, our form over that period is largely typified by under performance.

If Hibs could get to a point at which we are consistently punching our weight every season then I would be pretty happy. The list above shows that we have never really done it consistently and a couple of seasons in a row before an inevitable dip is about all we manage.

Won't quote the whole post, but agree on much of it, especially Hibs obvious shortcomings - St Johnstone on particular.

It's the longer term 'chronic failure' element. Every other team in Scotland is responsible for the same thing, certainly since the 1990s. No one who has had any sort of two/three year stint at prolonged success has made it last, most obviously Hearts and Aberdeen. There's a fairly unique set of circumstances where the money pool is too small, the player ability too limited, the player turnover too great, the attraction of Scotland too slight, and it all means a club and it's management are having to come up with new revised plans constantly and it's too big and ask to do it consistently well.

This has been about the longest period of time since I've heard the phrase 'Third Force'. Might well have been a godawful term devised by Hearts fans, but it doesn't really exist anymore as everyone's fortunes have been fluctuating far too much to make it stick for any length of time.

[sean]

I do think people underestimate how incredibly difficult it is for 40 clubs in Scotland to consistently achieve peak performance.

Of course it is but if the club wants to continue to progress over the coming years it really does need to actively try and achieve consistent top 4 finishes something we just don’t do.

Crowds are up, we’ve a fantastic stadium, commercial department flying and a training centre.

This isn’t a knee jerk reaction to a hiding at ibrox, I don’t expect to challenge the old firm BUT by good strong management there isn’t anything stopping us being consistently 3rd and playing in European group football till Christmas.

I’m content knowning we will never win the league, I’m happy with a cup now and again but it would be fantastic to play European football most seasons in the group stages, it would make it far more exciting being a hibby!

[Kato]

There was almost a bizarre shrug of the shoulders acceptance among some (admittedly a minority) after the cup defeats to St Johnstone a couple of seasons back because 'we had 2016'. So what? St Johnstone tripled their entire trophy haul in a single season and it should have been us, we probably won't get such a glorious chance again.



The most annoying Hibs result ever and there's been a few.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Lago]

Yep, and it blows my mind how many people just can't come to terms with it. Folk saying Hibs are this and that, this players crap, whole team needs changed etc etc blah blah blah.

Facts are Celtic and Rangers are MILES in front of us all. They're closer in finance to the likes of Aston Villa, Liverpool etc than we are to both Glasgow teams. Let that sink in. Would Rangers or Celtic be viewed as having a good chance to take points off of a Liverpool etc. Of course not.

Well people are expecting an even bigger feat from us in actually beating one of the Old Firm! The fact is when it happens it's a combination of many things, us at the top of our game but much more importantly them having the majority of the team off it.

The stats don't lie in how often teams in our league beat them. It's few and far between for a reason, and folk make snap judgements on players etc from a defeat to the Old Firm is just plain daft. They SHOULD be spanking us every time, and folk might not want to hear it just that's just the way it is.

Of course we go in with hope and cross everything that we're going to have that 1 in 10 game against them, but the reality is it almost more than likely won't happen.

We play in a 10 team league where 3rd is always the best we can achieve. Accept it and move on ffs. And don't anyone come at me with 'loser mentality' stuff, but it's not, it's just the sad reality.
All very true unfortunately, but what it's left us with in Scottish football is a totally predictable and unexciting league.

[Sioux]

Of course it is but if the club wants to continue to progress over the coming years it really does need to actively try and achieve consistent top 4 finishes something we just don’t do.

Crowds are up, we’ve a fantastic stadium, commercial department flying and a training centre.

This isn’t a knee jerk reaction to a hiding at ibrox, I don’t expect to challenge the old firm BUT by good strong management there isn’t anything stopping us being consistently 3rd and playing in European group football till Christmas.

I’m content knowning we will never win the league, I’m happy with a cup now and again but it would be fantastic to play European football most seasons in the group stages, it would make it far more exciting being a hibby!

Yes there is. Hertz and Aberdeen.

[Spike Mandela]

In any given year it is more than likely that Celtic or Rangers will take more points from games against us than we do. The problem I have with that currently is that we seem to be landing no punches at all against both of these teams who, especially Rangers imo, are nowhere near as good as they have been in the past.

Sure we got a win against Celtic at the tail end of last season where they had won the title and were playing a weakened side whilst we had a bit of form and were pushing for Europe. For me this was an excetpion to what should be the rule.

However, our commercial business is improving, our transfer business is impressive in the amount we are spending, albeit not always in quality of signings. We shouldn’t be the pushovers we are. We should be making these teams work for their successes even at Ibrox or Celtic park.

Our defensive frailties have been evident this season which may take a window or two to address but for me the team should be good enough to put up sterner opposition when these fixture come around.

We need to up our game, starting next week when Celtic come calling on the back of a European game.

[LancsHibs]

Could be worse, we could play in England where bigger clubs than us (Derby County, Sunderland, West Brom, Sheffield Wednesday etc) can’t even get near their top division never mind ever have a hope of winning anything or playing in Europe. Maybe be thankful for the hand we’ve been dealt?

[GRA]

The 17/18 season under Lenny we actually took more points from the OF than they did from us (and Hearts for that matter) so about once a decade we have shown, when the stars align, we can compete.

But the reality is they come back stronger & we lose our high-quality players so we endure long spells of hardly any wins, bar the odd cup win or end of season dead-rubber win here and there. Money talks.

[hibstag]

A good example of the dominance was from yesterday game at tiny, commentator ran off a few stats like Celtic going for ten wins in a row versus hearts for the first time since (you are expecting something like 1985 to be said) 2019... so one of our rivals have won once maybe twice to stop potential run of not winning 20 games versus one team, There was a few other stats celtcs best start to a season since 2017 by a point the have only dropped 2 this season.

[PHeffernan]

The gulf in the last few years has become even more extreme. The cups used to offer some respite but Celtic and Rangers have won 6 of the last 7 Scottish Cups (5 to Celtic). In the preceding 7 years Celtic won 2 and 5 other teams won 1 apiece. In the League Cup Celtic have won 6 of the last 7. Again the preceding 7 saw Rangers win 2, Celtic 1 and 4 other teams won one apiece.

That 7 year mark is when Rangers returned to the top league and Celtic appointed Rodgers first time around. It's also a period that has seen Celtic play group stage Champions League football 4 times and the riches that brings. Rangers did it once and had a couple of decent runs in the Europa League.

The league has been gone for 4 decades now but there looks a very real chance the cups are going the same way. It's bizarre really because if we came from elsewhere and drew Celtic or Rangers in Europe there would be resignation that we were going to lose because they outspend us by thousands of times to one. Yet because we play them domestically we have to think we can compete with them in one off games and in knockout competitions (I think even the most optimistic person knows we never will over a 38 games league season).

If you accept that us, Hearts and Aberdeen are the 3 biggest clubs outside Glasgow then our trophy hauls in recent years say it all. We have won 3 trophies in 32 years, Hearts 3 in 60 years and Aberdeen have a 33 year drought in the Scottish Cup and have won 2 League Cups in that time. It's not through lack of trying, it's purely financial and the Champions League and TV money (even the paltry sums in Scotland) ensure that status quo.

There is no solution. Celtic and Rangers can't go anywhere else and no one is going to agree to something radical like a salary cap. We really just have to accept that we'll get our turn at a trophy every decade or 2 and that's it.

Good post, that is exactly how it is.

In a way the OF are more stuck than us.
They have the stadium and the fan base to be massive but can't access the big money to progress or grow further.
The proof is in the Champions League every season.
They are left flailing about in vain like Hibs on Saturday and can never change it with their £4 million players in a £30 million player world.
They are then left pointlessly fighting each other domestically for the right to make a fool of themselves again the following season.
It amuses the **** out of me.

Hibs on the other hand have lots of spare seats so we can grow our support and there is an average £2 million annual revenue stream in the European Conference League if we can make the top 5. So although we can't win our league we can make real progress and maybe make the Conference group stages eventually and more money means better players.
Clubs our size in the likes of England can never dream of playing in Europe.
All in all Hibs are a good team to support.

[sean]

Good post, that is exactly how it is.

In a way the OF are more stuck than us.
They have the stadium and the fan base to be massive but can't access the big money to progress or grow further.
The proof is in the Champions League every season.
They are left flailing about in vain like Hibs on Saturday and can never change it with their £4 million players in a £30 million player world.
They are then left pointlessly fighting each other domestically for the right to make a fool of themselves again the following season.
It amuses the **** out of me.

Hibs on the other hand have lots of spare seats so we can grow our support and there is an average £2 million annual revenue stream in the European Conference League if we can make the top 5. So although we can't win our league we can make real progress and maybe make the Conference group stages eventually.
Clubs our size in the likes of England can never dream of playing in Europe.
All in all Hibs are a good team to support.

Your final part is what I’m getting at.

Ourselves, hearts and the dons all have the most realistic chance of finishing 3rd most seasons. The conference and Europea league give us a fantastic opportunity to grow the club on and off the park.

I honestly believe We don’t be far away this season from 3rd this season but monty must earn his crust up until January and improve the defensive situation. We just cannot go on shopping such piss poor goals.