Rugby Referees

[CentreLine]

I realise this has been discussed before but I feel it is worth repeating.

Watching the matches in the rugby World Cup I can’t help but be impressed by the level of quality and clarity on show from the refereeing. All fitted with mics and every decision clearly explained, described and justified. Not totally infallible but a world away from the inept refereeing we see in football, in general and particularly Scottish football.
Surely it would not be beyond the abilities, of the people who run our game, to learn from and adopt these principles and methods in the football game.

I recommend every football fan takes in at least one match from the rugby World Cup and pays particular attention to the authority, respect and clarity generated by the refereeing.

[HoboHarry]

Nothing but nothing is going to change with Scottish refereeing until the power is taken away from the Glasgow and Lanarkshire associations. Scotland is no longer being represented at major finals and the status quo seems to be acceptable.

[Irish_Steve]

It wouldn't last five minutes in a live football game as the broadcasters would have to take it off due to all the swearing from the players.

Was always a laugh during Covid hearing how much swearing the managers did too lol

[MartinfaePorty]

I've only watched a few games, but there seemed to be some inconsistencies in the refereeing and the pundits in the studio were disagreeing with some major decisions. They are also 2 completely different sports in the way play is executed, with rugby much more about generally slower, set passages of play, with intense, somewhat sporadic burst of activity. Football tends to be more frantic, with play going from end to end, so not sure the rugby method of refereeing would work.

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[wookie70]

It wouldn't last five minutes in a live football game as the broadcasters would have to take it off due to all the swearing from the players.

Was always a laugh during Covid hearing how much swearing the managers did too lolNot unusual for refs to swear too

[hibbydog]

Difference in culture is incredible IMO

Rugby referees have the players eating out of their hand.

Football refs just take total abuse all over the shop.

The 10 yard rule in rugby works well - mouth off at a ref and you concede 10 yards. And the 10 minute sin bin thing works well too.

The differences are hard wired and it would take years to change they way football treats the refs

[J-C]

I realise this has been discussed before but I feel it is worth repeating.

Watching the matches in the rugby World Cup I can’t help but be impressed by the level of quality and clarity on show from the refereeing. All fitted with mics and every decision clearly explained, described and justified. Not totally infallible but a world away from the inept refereeing we see in football, in general and particularly Scottish football.
Surely it would not be beyond the abilities, of the people who run our game, to learn from and adopt these principles and methods in the football game.

I recommend every football fan takes in at least one match from the rugby World Cup and pays particular attention to the authority, respect and clarity generated by the refereeing.

Rugby and football are different culture wise. Football is known as the common man's game, played on the streets and in the park and where a young lad from nothing can become a professional. Rugby comes from posh schools where the games are generally refereed by teachers, hence why the refs are given respect, plus you'll generally find most rugby refs are also ex players, maybe not at the top level but at some level in the game.

[HibbyDave]

Respect for the difficult job a ref faces is built into the world of rugby from school upwards.
You often hear the ref saying thank you to players for correct behaviour in the match. It’s not uncommon for the ref to apologise to a player if needed.
I also like the yellow card review to see if it merits a red card then upgrade it if so.

[Helensburghhibs]

If you watched the fiji game the other day you would realise that rugby refs are just as incompetent and possibly corrupt in favour of tge big teams. Lets not kid ourselves,,, some of the rugby refs are on a major power trip with tge respect they are awarded

[Hibernian Verse]

They trialled explaining VAR in the women’s WC and it’s used in the A-League. I don’t think it’ll be too far away from European comps.

[Mick O'Rourke]

It wouldn't last five minutes in a live football game as the broadcasters would have to take it off due to all the swearing from the players.

Was always a laugh during Covid hearing how much swearing the managers did too lol

Is it not the case in rugby that only the team captain can ask ref for reasons/explanation on his decision?
Some fitba' players seem to think that using foul language when complaining a ruling enhances their case/objection to a decision.
It clearly doesn't.
If rugby's way was to be implemented in fitba',to avoid sweary words being heard over refs mic ,make effing and ceeing a referee's decision a yellow card.
Player using hand signals calling for the ref to show a card should be booked anaw.
I also believe as staed here by others that rugby comes from a culture that is more disciplined and educated ,if i can say that, than fitba. However i would like to see rugby style refereeing in fitba.
Its educational also for ignorant fans !!
But as said,our referee bosses likely would not want "rugby style "reffing.

On fans and refs

Refs have been getting dogs abuse from the terraces in fitba for as long as i can remember.
My Grandad said it was the same when he was wee !!
Every support thinks the ref is favourable to the opposition on any given day.
Some of the more colourful and also distasteful language from the terraces aimed at the ref when i was younger would get you lifted now.
(i write that thinking..well the hun hordes get away with as much)
I dont think such behavior ever existed in rugby.
In Scottish fitba it stemmed i think from the Old Firm fans questioning a refs religion.


As i recall the punchline in the old fitba joke about refs.
"Who missed rAngers penalty ?!"

[Jones28]

Rugby and football are different culture wise. Football is known as the common man's game, played on the streets and in the park and where a young lad from nothing can become a professional. Rugby comes from posh schools where the games are generally refereed by teachers, hence why the refs are given respect, plus you'll generally find most rugby refs are also ex players, maybe not at the top level but at some level in the game.

I think folk from the Borders and rural parts of the country would whole heartedly disagree with that.

[LaMotta]

Always amazes me that Rugby players show so much respect to referees on the pitch when in day to day life lots of them are arrogant trumpets who don't have any respect for anyone or anything.

[GloryGlory]

Always amazes me that Rugby players show so much respect to referees on the pitch when in day to day life lots of them are arrogant trumpets who don't have any respect for anyone or anything.

Maybe it's because lot of them came from posh families and the ref reminds them of Nanny. :wink:

[Mick O'Rourke]

I think folk from the Borders and rural parts of the country would whole heartedly disagree with that.

That is true ,but unlike Wales for example,Rugby in Scotland historically was mostly played at the Private/Merchant Schools and in some state schools, mostly Acadamies.
So it was always seen as more a "middle class" sport in Scotland.

Cricket was the same . And we invented that game !

[Northernhibee]

On another referee related note, I see the boy Napier was making a tit of himself at Arbroath Vs Airdrie yesterday.

[LaMotta]

Maybe it's because lot of them came from posh families and the ref reminds them of Nanny. :wink:

:hilarious

[Jack]

I realise this has been discussed before but I feel it is worth repeating.

Watching the matches in the rugby World Cup I can’t help but be impressed by the level of quality and clarity on show from the refereeing. All fitted with mics and every decision clearly explained, described and justified. Not totally infallible but a world away from the inept refereeing we see in football, in general and particularly Scottish football.
Surely it would not be beyond the abilities, of the people who run our game, to learn from and adopt these principles and methods in the football game.

I recommend every football fan takes in at least one match from the rugby World Cup and pays particular attention to the authority, respect and clarity generated by the refereeing.

I don't like rugby but quite often find myself in the company of rugby supporting friends when it's on the telly in the pub.

I doubt they'd agree with your assessment of rugby refrees as all I hear from them are gasps of disbelief and randomly pointing at the screen guffawing while shouting at a ******* ridiculous decision!

I do like the 10 minute sin bin rule for a yellow, potential red card and its all reviewed by the TMO as the game continues.

[superfurryhibby]

That is true ,but unlike Wales for example,Rugby in Scotland historically was mostly played at the Private/Merchant Schools and in some state schools, mostly Acadamies.
So it was always seen as more a "middle class" sport in Scotland.

Cricket was the same . And we invented that game !

If you’re referring to the cities, true up to a point, but even then there were/ are plenty of FP clubs that bear the names of state schools, like Royal High, Boroughmuir, Liberton.

You can’t discount the rugby playing traditions of the Borders, it’s deeply embedded in communities there and has a historical tradition that is probably way older then football ( the baw game at Jedburgh, it goes back many centuries).

[Pretty Boy]

Two way street.

Rugby refs explain decisions to players, give fair warning to captains, attempt to resolve recurring issues etc. They command respect.

5 minutes watching refs in the Scottish Premierhsip and you can see why players have minimal respect for them.

[Bridge hibs]

I think folk from the Borders and rural parts of the country would whole heartedly disagree with that.

Yeah I remember when Scotland beat England at Murrayfield many years back with I think a Stanger try and pre match they spoke about the groundings of the likes of Armstrong, Sole etc. Armstrong was a humble lorry driver and a few others were Borders farmers with England by contrast consisting of Bankers, Stock Exchange, Solicitors etc

[Mick O'Rourke]

If you’re referring to the cities, true up to a point, but even then there were/ are plenty of FP clubs that bear the names of state schools, like Royal High, Boroughmuir, Liberton.

You can’t discount the rugby playing traditions of the Borders, it’s deeply embedded in communities there and has a historical tradition that is probably way older then football ( the baw game at Jedburgh, it goes back many centuries).
I did mention state schools. Holy Cross would be another to your list.
A school that gave us two Tornadoes!!

I did not discount the borders traditions at all.
The farming communities there are steeped in Rugby.
They also liked getting on horseback and chasing foxes through the countryside !!
The Tally Ho Borders folk !
Tweed jackets and green wellies !

Not quite the same as Welsh mining communities :greengrin:aok:

[archie]

I realise this has been discussed before but I feel it is worth repeating.

Watching the matches in the rugby World Cup I can’t help but be impressed by the level of quality and clarity on show from the refereeing. All fitted with mics and every decision clearly explained, described and justified. Not totally infallible but a world away from the inept refereeing we see in football, in general and particularly Scottish football.
Surely it would not be beyond the abilities, of the people who run our game, to learn from and adopt these principles and methods in the football game.

I recommend every football fan takes in at least one match from the rugby World Cup and pays particular attention to the authority, respect and clarity generated by the refereeing.

With rugby referees there's an element of telling players not to commit infringements. You hear the shouts - roll away, release etc. But in a scrum or maul the ref can see a situation developing. You can't really visualise a football ref shouting 'don't go in with your studs up' it's just too fast.

[gbhibby]

Watched the micd up football refs epl on sky it was really informative. Was thinking how the conversation would go in Scotland. REF
Can you get an angle to show that there was contact so I can give a penalty to Rangers.
VAR Dinnae have AI that can do that yet but just give it as they are due one against Hibs

[Eyrie]

Always amazes me that Rugby players show so much respect to referees on the pitch when in day to day life lots of them are arrogant trumpets who don't have any respect for anyone or anything.

Sounds more like how the average football fan behaves at the game than the rugby fans I know do in real life.

[The_Todd]

Rugby and football are different culture wise. Football is known as the common man's game, played on the streets and in the park and where a young lad from nothing can become a professional. Rugby comes from posh schools where the games are generally refereed by teachers, hence why the refs are given respect, plus you'll generally find most rugby refs are also ex players, maybe not at the top level but at some level in the game.

Try telling that to the ex coal mining communities of the South Wales Valleys or pretty much any comprehensive school in Wales. It's a posh sport in Scotland, maybe. Not everywhere.

[CentreForward]

That is true ,but unlike Wales for example,Rugby in Scotland historically was mostly played at the Private/Merchant Schools and in some state schools, mostly Acadamies.
So it was always seen as more a "middle class" sport in Scotland.

Cricket was the same . And we invented that game !


We invented cricket? Are you sure? I can’t see my evidence for that.

[Jones28]

There’s no doubt that some rugby refs are not as good as others. Mistakes happen, there are some decisions that baffle and confound in rugby as there are in football.

But what cannot be denied is the control that refs have over the players and the game. Nigel Owens will probably be remembered as one of the best referees ever in the game and the command he maintained over the game was incredible. What I really liked about him was the way he would reinforce the spirit of rugby: honesty, integrity and sportsmanship.

Football culture is so far off it, I wonder if a season of yellow and red cards issued for dissent and disrespect for refs would help the culture to shift.

[Just_Jimmy]

A yellow card in football doesn't have the same impact as a yellow in rugby.

The slower pace helps in rugby.

Football is bent.

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[Lago]

Rugby and football are different culture wise. Football is known as the common man's game, played on the streets and in the park and where a young lad from nothing can become a professional. Rugby comes from posh schools where the games are generally refereed by teachers, hence why the refs are given respect, plus you'll generally find most rugby refs are also ex players, maybe not at the top level but at some level in the game.
Bit of an outdated view to be honest, think if you go through the Scots rugby squad not that many went to posh schools, same for the rest of U. K and Ireland

[Hibs4185]

Rugby and football are different culture wise. Football is known as the common man's game, played on the streets and in the park and where a young lad from nothing can become a professional. Rugby comes from posh schools where the games are generally refereed by teachers, hence why the refs are given respect, plus you'll generally find most rugby refs are also ex players, maybe not at the top level but at some level in the game.

Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentleman.

Football is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans.

The level of disrespect for referees in football is astonishing, no wonder there is difficulty getting good referees. Who in earth would want to be one

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Cricket was the same . And we invented that game !

Tell us more.

[Since90+2]

Rugby is a hooligans game played by gentleman.

Football is a gentleman’s game played by hooligans.

The level of disrespect for referees in football is astonishing, no wonder there is difficulty getting good referees. Who in earth would want to be one

Because they're very well paid.

I believe in Scotland it's about a grand a game.

Much more in England.

[J-C]

I think folk from the Borders and rural parts of the country would whole heartedly disagree with that.

Yes, that is true but the fundamentals re referees are the same, I honestly think because the refs are all ex players they get respect.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Because they're very well paid.

I believe in Scotland it's about a grand a game.

Much more in England.

Our refs are paid about £800 a match, if they do 2 in a week they are probably earning as much as about a third of the players in the Scottish premiership. At one point Stuart Dougal said that was to a maximum of £10,000 in a season, but given our small pool of refs that seems highly unlikely.

All that being said, how many folk getting paid £800 for a days work can continually screw it up with what seems literally no consequences, even to the point that they are often given the exact same fixture they made a clear and obvious error in the last time it was played.

[Since90+2]

Our refs are paid about £800 a match, if they do 2 in a week they are probably earning as much as about a third of the players in the Scottish premiership. At one point Stuart Dougal said that was to a maximum of £10,000 in a season, but given our small pool of refs that seems highly unlikely.

All that being said, how many folk getting paid £800 for a days work can continually screw it up with what seems literally no consequences, even to the point that they are often given the exact same fixture they made a clear and obvious error in the last time it was played.

Whatever you look at it, £800 to referee a game of football is a lot of money.

Most people in Scotland don't earn that for a 40 hour week.

[Jones28]

Yes, that is true but the fundamentals re referees are the same, I honestly think because the refs are all ex players they get respect.

I’d be shocked if a single referee has never played football before though. Using owens as an example, he didn’t play rugby beyond schoolboy level. He missed a conversion and the coach said something along the lines of “for god sake Nigel, will you go and referee or something?”

Wayne Barnes became a referee at 15 having played a schoolboy level.

[Jones28]

We need to make refereeing a professional occupation in this country.

It needs to be well paid and attract the best referees, not just be something that people do in their spare time or alongside another job.

[He's here!]

Rugby and football are different culture wise. Football is known as the common man's game, played on the streets and in the park and where a young lad from nothing can become a professional. Rugby comes from posh schools where the games are generally refereed by teachers, hence why the refs are given respect, plus you'll generally find most rugby refs are also ex players, maybe not at the top level but at some level in the game.

You'd be hard pushed to find any kids playing football in the street these days. And apart from official club training/matches the only impromptu 'jerseys for goalposts' games I see in parks tend to be students having a kick-around on the Meadows/Holyrood.

[Jones28]

You'd be hard pushed to find any kids playing football in the street these days. And apart from official club training/matches the only impromptu 'jerseys for goalposts' games I see in parks tend to be students having a kick-around on the Meadows/Holyrood.

Exactly this as well. The idea of football being the working man’s sport is completely outdated.

[Hibbyradge]

There are thousands of games of football which need a referee every week in Scotland.

Very, very few of those referees get anywhere close to earning £800 a match in their entire career.

Junior referees earn £35. They must be masochists.

[easty]

We need to make refereeing a professional occupation in this country.

It needs to be well paid and attract the best referees, not just be something that people do in their spare time or alongside another job.

I disagree. I don’t think the job a referee does needs to be a permanent full time post, and I’m yet to see any argument that convinced me why it’d make them any better at their job.

They’re already fit enough to be referees and get about the pitch. They already know the laws of the game. I don’t think the standard we’re getting is good enough, but paying them more doesn’t improve that.

[Jones28]

There are thousands of games of football which need a referee every week in Scotland.

Very, very few of those referees get anywhere close to earning £800 a match in their entire career.

Junior referees earn £35. They must be masochists.

Yeah and also, **** doing that for £35.

22 on the pitch, plus coaches and everyone watching game shouting abuse at you every chance they get.

I admire referees at lower levels who put up with that kind of crap.

[easty]

Whatever you look at it, £800 to referee a game of football is a lot of money.

Most people in Scotland don't earn that for a 40 hour week.

Exactly. There’ll be plenty footballers in the championship, and some playing in our league, who don’t earn £800 a week. I’d not be surprised at all if there are some guys who play fairly regularly at Dundee who are on around £800 a week.

Refs do not deserve that kind of money.

[Jones28]

I disagree. I don’t think the job a referee does needs to be a permanent full time post, and I’m yet to see any argument that convinced me why it’d make them any better at their job.

They’re already fit enough to be referees and get about the pitch. They already know the laws of the game. I don’t think the standard we’re getting is good enough, but paying them more doesn’t improve that.

You don’t think referees being professional referees without jobs to do full time throughout the week and full time able to concentrate on being better at their jobs would improve the standard?

Knowing the laws of the game and being fit doesn’t make you a good ref as we can clearly see, most of these guys are refs because they want to be but they couldn’t get by on their weekly fee from refereeing.

So what’s the next step? How do you make them better?

[Stonewall]

That is true ,but unlike Wales for example,Rugby in Scotland historically was mostly played at the Private/Merchant Schools and in some state schools, mostly Acadamies.
So it was always seen as more a "middle class" sport in Scotland.

Cricket was the same . And we invented that game !

I think cricket has come more and more like you describe over the years although with the huge proportion of people from Asian backgrounds now playing I'm not sure how the posh label really stands up.

Historically there were many genuinely working class and works clubs but they have tended to wither away over the years. Places like Fauldhouse, Pumpherston and Bathgate all had clubs originally formed by the many miners who moved up from England to work in the mines in the middle of the 19th century and brought the game with them. Armadale had a club associated with the Atlas Steelworks and in the west companies like John Brown Engineering (captained by the chief shop steward), Babcocks, Weirs Pumps, Singer, Rolls Royce and the Mills in Paisley all ran cricket teams.

[easty]

You don’t think referees being professional referees without jobs to do full time throughout the week and full time able to concentrate on being better at their jobs would improve the standard?

Knowing the laws of the game and being fit doesn’t make you a good ref as we can clearly see, most of these guys are refs because they want to be but they couldn’t get by on their weekly fee from refereeing.

So what’s the next step? How do you make them better?

They don’t need to get by on their ref salary (which at SPL level is already too high in my opinion), they can have another job if they want.

What does “concentrate on being better on their jobs” even mean? Are they not concentrating now? What would they be doing as full time refs through the week? Re-reading the rules they already know? Practising looking at a var screen?

I honestly just don’t understand the argument that they’d get better.

I don’t know the answer to how you make them better either. Rewarding their ineptitude as part-timers by giving them more money seems odd to me.

[Stonewall]

Actually to keep on topic there are problems getting people to umpire cricket matches and bad player behaviour is one of the reasons for that.

[Jones28]

They don’t need to get by on their ref salary (which at SPL level is already too high in my opinion), they can have another job if they want.

What does “concentrate on being better on their jobs” even mean? Are they not concentrating now? What would they be doing as full time refs through the week? Re-reading the rules they already know? Practising looking at a var screen?

I honestly just don’t understand the argument that they’d get better.

I don’t know the answer to how you make them better either. Rewarding their ineptitude as part-timers by giving them more money seems odd to me.

Did you even read what I said? I know they can have another job. It’s very well advertised they have other jobs.

I think they should not have other jobs. Refereeing should be a full time occupation. They should be able to concentrate full time on being referees. We regularly talk about the challenges for part time players going from day jobs to footballers and they are, naturally, not expected to be able to perform at the same level as a full time player. Why isn’t that the same for a ref?

Professionalising refereeing means that you let those that want to be referees full time do so, paying them well enough to make it a career and have performance based incentives/systems in place to ensure that the best refs get to the top.

[Mick O'Rourke]

Tell us more.

Nothing really to tell ,only that in true English form they claimed and organised a number of sports first wherever their origin might have been.
Cricket in some form was played in Scotland centuries ago, as it was in other parts of the British Isles.
Surprised England didnt claim Lacrosse ,or did they !?

By the way !! The "football's coming home" song was a piece of propoganda nonsense :greengrin
Rugby of course is named afer the School who claim it as their game .
But it to had been played in many forms before then.
We (Scots) taught the English the passing game (football)
But all the above claims just generates debates on who did this or that first.
Some of our not so noisy neighbours dont recognise us being first Scottish team to play in a European competition !:greengrin

My school didn't have a rugby team.
But am sure if it had ,some of my classmates would have loved it!!

[weecounty hibby]

The first recorded game of cricket in Scotland was played in Alloa. Unfortunately it was a garrison game brought to the country by English soldiers stationed in Scotland after the 1745 uprising. Anyhoo, back to rugby. I defy anyone to come to my local club, Alloa, and then say it's an upper class sport. The way refs are respected is just drummed into you as a youngster when you first start playing rugby. Nothing to do with class, more to do with coaching and respect

[easty]

Did you even read what I said? I know they can have another job. It’s very well advertised they have other jobs.

I think they should not have other jobs. Refereeing should be a full time occupation. They should be able to concentrate full time on being referees. We regularly talk about the challenges for part time players going from day jobs to footballers and they are, naturally, not expected to be able to perform at the same level as a full time player. Why isn’t that the same for a ref?

Professionalising refereeing means that you let those that want to be referees full time do so, paying them well enough to make it a career and have performance based incentives/systems in place to ensure that the best refs get to the top.

I clearly read it, and responded to it aye. Dunno why you’re getting so uppity about it?

It’s not the same for a ref because being a footballer and being a ref are completely different.

English premier league refs are full time, get paid a fortune and there are still mistakes made and poor quality refereeing every week. Chucking money at it doesn’t make it better.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Nothing really to tell ,only that in true English form they claimed and organised a number of sports first wherever their origin might have been.
Cricket in some form was played in Scotland centuries ago, as it was in other parts of the British Isles.
Surprised England didnt claim Lacrosse ,or did they !?

By the way !! The "football's coming home" song was a piece of propoganda nonsense :greengrin
Rugby of course is named afer the School who claim it as their game .
But it to had been played in many forms before then.
We (Scots) taught the English the passing game (football)
But all the above claims just generates debates on who did this or that first.
Some of our not so noisy neighbours dont recognise us being first Scottish team to play in a European competition !:greengrin

My school didn't have a rugby team.
But am sure if it had ,some of my classmates would have loved it!!

No mention of it here.


http://www.icc-cricket.com/about/cricket/history-of-cricket/early-cricket

[Mick O'Rourke]

I think cricket has come more and more like you describe over the years although with the huge proportion of people from Asian backgrounds now playing I'm not sure how the posh label really stands up.

Historically there were many genuinely working class and works clubs but they have tended to wither away over the years. Places like Fauldhouse, Pumpherston and Bathgate all had clubs originally formed by the many miners who moved up from England to work in the mines in the middle of the 19th century and brought the game with them. Armadale had a club associated with the Atlas Steelworks and in the west companies like John Brown Engineering (captained by the chief shop steward), Babcocks, Weirs Pumps, Singer, Rolls Royce and the Mills in Paisley all ran cricket teams.
Thanks Stonewall
Interesting stuff
Some great iconic Scottish works you mention and well run union workforces too
Yes it was a great way for communities and workplaces to socialise(bond to use the new term i guess) in the Summer months.
Nae cheap cruises to Europe and afar in them days. We stayed at home :greengrin

[He's here!]

I think cricket has come more and more like you describe over the years although with the huge proportion of people from Asian backgrounds now playing I'm not sure how the posh label really stands up.

Historically there were many genuinely working class and works clubs but they have tended to wither away over the years. Places like Fauldhouse, Pumpherston and Bathgate all had clubs originally formed by the many miners who moved up from England to work in the mines in the middle of the 19th century and brought the game with them. Armadale had a club associated with the Atlas Steelworks and in the west companies like John Brown Engineering (captained by the chief shop steward), Babcocks, Weirs Pumps, Singer, Rolls Royce and the Mills in Paisley all ran cricket teams.

'Whistling down a mine shaft for an England Test cricketer' was a once a phrase grounded in reality.

[Mick O'Rourke]

No mention of it here.


http://www.icc-cricket.com/about/cricket/history-of-cricket/early-cricket

Ok dokey HH Got a debate going:aok:

Rugby and cricket :greengrin whatever the origins.

Wee true story fae Auld Clerry and The O'Rourkes sporting prowess !

There was a park outside our parents house in Clermiston Park (not the big park at Drum Brae Drive) and a laddie round the corner would set up his cricket stumps some days in school summer holidays.
He was a Daniel Stewarts pupil,hence the cricket interest
Anyway,ma wee brother Billy didnae fancy being called out with an lbw and argued with this laddie from round the corner.
Finish up was... Billy walloped him oan the heed wae a cricket stump.
He was a big laddie,but he ran hame greeting and telt his dad.
Now the good bit.
His dad was a sergeant in the polis.
So it seems he put his uniform and marched round to our front door to get an explanation.
Now our auld man Mick wiznae long back from the Clerry Inn.
Now he was old school.He didnae like clipes.
If we went home and said we got beat in a fight there would be another one !
Anyway ,he asked the sarge to go round to the back door to avoid nosey neighbours .
On opening the back door, Auld Mick knocked the sarge flying over our mums rhubarb patch and shut the door.
We heard no more and our cricket involvement was cancelled that summer because of a clipe !
Or maybe in case the auld man would be playing cricket in Saughton had we did so !

[Bristolhibby]

Difference in culture is incredible IMO

Rugby referees have the players eating out of their hand.

Football refs just take total abuse all over the shop.

The 10 yard rule in rugby works well - mouth off at a ref and you concede 10 yards. And the 10 minute sin bin thing works well too.

The differences are hard wired and it would take years to change they way football treats the refs

I don’t think it would. You could change it overnight if there was a global Will. From professional game down to kids.

Any lip you concede territory or even a reversal.

J

[Jones28]

I clearly read it, and responded to it aye. Dunno why you’re getting so uppity about it?

It’s not the same for a ref because being a footballer and being a ref are completely different.

English premier league refs are full time, get paid a fortune and there are still mistakes made and poor quality refereeing every week. Chucking money at it doesn’t make it better.

I don’t think we will agree on this.

I think we need something radical.

[Frazerbob]

Always amazes me that Rugby players show so much respect to referees on the pitch when in day to day life lots of them are arrogant trumpets who don't have any respect for anyone or anything.

Sweeping generalisation there 😂

[Since90+2]

Sweeping generalisation there 😂

It probably is, but to be fair in my line of work I've met a few footballers and Rugby players, and the Rugby guys have generally had a much higher opinion of themselves.

[Carheenlea]

If you asked any Scottish rugby referee who their favourite football team was, 90% of them would say Hearts.

Got no evidence to back that up, but I don’t think it’ll be far off the mark.

[Stonewall]

'Whistling down a mine shaft for an England Test cricketer' was a once a phrase grounded in reality.

There was indeed a lot of truth in that. These leagues in the North of England were and still are a very high standard and are important parts of their communities. Also many were formed well before football became organised. I don't know the exact dates (someone probably will) but Fauldhouse CC were formed in about 1845 and produced a number of Scottish internationals. They only went defunct 4-5 years ago which is sad.

[McD]

Sweeping generalisation there 😂

To go with a few others on this thread

[Heedersnvolleys]

Our rugby refs are p!$# as well, don’t think we have any at the current WC, may have a touch judge or VAR ref. That’s because we don’t have any full time refs

[gbhibby]

Ok dokey HH Got a debate going:aok:

Rugby and cricket :greengrin whatever the origins.

Wee true story fae Auld Clerry and The O'Rourkes sporting prowess !

There was a park outside our parents house in Clermiston Park (not the big park at Drum Brae Drive) and a laddie round the corner would set up his cricket stumps some days in school summer holidays.
He was a Daniel Stewarts pupil,hence the cricket interest
Anyway,ma wee brother Billy didnae fancy being called out with an lbw and argued with this laddie from round the corner.
Finish up was... Billy walloped him oan the heed wae a cricket stump.
He was a big laddie,but he ran hame greeting and telt his dad.
Now the good bit.
His dad was a sergeant in the polis.
So it seems he put his uniform and marched round to our front door to get an explanation.
Now our auld man Mick wiznae long back from the Clerry Inn.
Now he was old school.He didnae like clipes.
If we went home and said we got beat in a fight there would be another one !
Anyway ,he asked the sarge to go round to the back door to avoid nosey neighbours .
On opening the back door, Auld Mick knocked the sarge flying over our mums rhubarb patch and shut the door.
We heard no more and our cricket involvement was cancelled that summer because of a clipe !
Or maybe in case the auld man would be playing cricket in Saughton had we did so !
Mick us guys from Clerry Place from the council schools used to set up a cricket pitch outside your parents house because it had natural boundarys I had a set of stumps and a bat. Others had other equipment. Do remember a few times when lbw decisions causing arguments. We also used to play on the big park at well.

[LaMotta]

Sounds more like how the average football fan behaves at the game than the rugby fans I know do in real life.

Talking about rugby players. Starting from Uni rugby teams, local club rugby teams, right through to encounters with Edinburgh Rugby players and current Scotland internationals.

Per capita they are a different breed of unpleasant IMO. Of course there are some decent sorts who play rugby too. I think private schools breed a certain type of arrogance though into people that generally doesn't go down well with the Scottish psyche. I'll blame them.

[LaMotta]

It probably is, but to be fair in my line of work I've met a few footballers and Rugby players, and the Rugby guys have generally had a much higher opinion of themselves.

:agree:

[LaMotta]

Bit of an outdated view to be honest, think if you go through the Scots rugby squad not that many went to posh schools, same for the rest of U. K and Ireland

Are you sure? Of the starting 15 v South Africa the majority of the Scottish born players were at private schools.

[JimBHibees]

Are you sure? Of the starting 15 v South Africa the majority of the Scottish born players were at private schools.

Yes definitely would have thought a few of the Scottish born players will have gone private schools.

Think Finn Darcy and Grant Gilchrist went to comprehensives.

[LNHibs]

Yes definitely would have thought a few of the Scottish born players will have gone private schools.

Rugby is a little different in the way of the reason the majority of international players will come through ''Private Schools'' in Scotland is more often than not due to them getting scholarships at your Watsons, Stewarts Melville etc when they show ability at a young age as Edinburgh & Glasgow don't have u15's teams for example.


I think the biggest difference is from a young age we are told not to speak to the ref or the team gets punished (marched back 10 yards or down to 14 men from a sin bin) whereas in football refs get abused right the way up from youth level as these kids see it on the TV every weekend in the Premier League. They need to be harder on players across the board who are abusive even sending's off if necessary.

The VAR/TMO Debate is always an interesting one. TMO having one person doing it and one person speaking to the ref seems to work miles better than what VAR is, the english audio released with the 5 people all shouting at eachother shows what an utter shambles it is. Having one person in there explaining his reasoning for giving x y z decision would make the whole thing so much more easier to understand for fans across the boards.

[gbhibby]

I played a few other sports rugby included,from a comprehensive school and when the refs made a decision there was no arguments you accepted the decision. Football has been professional for a long time so the culture of arguing with the refs has grown over the years, and has not been nipped
in the bud. When the continentals played against us you would see them trying to intimidate ref, a tactic Fergie used with Aberdeen and Man Utd.You need to introduce appropriate sanctions to outlaw it, being a ref in football is not an easy job.

[pollution]

I'm on holiday watching occasional world cup rugby and one thing I have not seen are scrums.
Are there any,or have they been dropped ?

[Lago]

I'm on holiday watching occasional world cup rugby and one thing I have not seen are scrums.
Are there any,or have they been dropped ?
You haven't been watching too closely :greengrin

[pollution]

You haven't been watching too closely :greengrin

Just snippets of games as and when the signal allows.
I suppose I was hoping it was an attempt to speed up the game, one of rugby's handicaps imo

[NAE NOOKIE]

I just have visions of Craig Napier shouting at Dylan Vente .... "Stay onside number nine" Rugby refs all seem to be frustrated coaches and managers. Don't rugby players learn the rules ( sorry 'laws' ) when they start playing, that the ref has to talk them through the game? :greengrin

There's a plethora of Rugby sites on social media who all seem to delight in making disparaging comparisons between the beautiful game and theirs. Not least the famous 'this isn't football' comment by a ref in a world cup match at St James's park when a player went down, which they lapped up.

They did seem to get a wee bit defensive when the likes of me pointed out the irony that if it wasn't for the game they are so keen to trash they wouldn't be able to hold their 'world cup' .... The tell tale painted out fitba pitch markings at practically every stadium being used at this one tell their own story, the sporting equivalent of welly burn rings round the legs of kids from my era even in the summer that proved your mum couldn't afford to buy you shoes.

The groundsman at Nice must have been tearing his hair out last night as a scrum ripped the football club's beautiful and clearly newly laid pitch to pieces :confused:

I like rugby by the way ... but the way some folk who follow it delight in looking down on the game I love makes it hard to like them.

[PatHead]

I don't really watch rugby but my son and some of my friends do.

They have criticised a lot of the refereeing in this tournament. Inconsistency being the main problem and some decisions that should have been reviewed not.

Sounds very familiar!

[JimBHibees]

Rugby is a little different in the way of the reason the majority of international players will come through ''Private Schools'' in Scotland is more often than not due to them getting scholarships at your Watsons, Stewarts Melville etc when they show ability at a young age as Edinburgh & Glasgow don't have u15's teams for example.


I think the biggest difference is from a young age we are told not to speak to the ref or the team gets punished (marched back 10 yards or down to 14 men from a sin bin) whereas in football refs get abused right the way up from youth level as these kids see it on the TV every weekend in the Premier League. They need to be harder on players across the board who are abusive even sending's off if necessary.

The VAR/TMO Debate is always an interesting one. TMO having one person doing it and one person speaking to the ref seems to work miles better than what VAR is, the english audio released with the 5 people all shouting at eachother shows what an utter shambles it is. Having one person in there explaining his reasoning for giving x y z decision would make the whole thing so much more easier to understand for fans across the boards.

Good post totally agree about football and questioning referees from a young age. In my experience was more coaches and parents rather than players themselves though of course they then mimic the behaviour. Think in football there is meant to be one var person like rugby. The Tmo in the South African game must have been sleeping to miss the red card challenge :greengrin

Didn’t realise about the scholarship scheme

[BonnieFitbaTeam]

There was indeed a lot of truth in that. These leagues in the North of England were and still are a very high standard and are important parts of their communities. Also many were formed well before football became organised. I don't know the exact dates (someone probably will) but Fauldhouse CC were formed in about 1845 and produced a number of Scottish internationals. They only went defunct 4-5 years ago which is sad.


I didn't realise Fauldhouse had folded, that's a shame. Lovely wee ground as well.

I played many years ago at two different incarnations of Leith CC.....there was nothing posh about fielding on the links dodging dog *****.

[Bristolhibby]

I just have visions of Craig Napier shouting at Dylan Vente .... "Stay onside number nine" Rugby refs all seem to be frustrated coaches and managers. Don't rugby players learn the rules ( sorry 'laws' ) when they start playing, that the ref has to talk them through the game? :greengrin

There's a plethora of Rugby sites on social media who all seem to delight in making disparaging comparisons between the beautiful game and theirs. Not least the famous 'this isn't football' comment by a ref in a world cup match at St James's park when a player went down, which they lapped up.

They did seem to get a wee bit defensive when the likes of me pointed out the irony that if it wasn't for the game they are so keen to trash they wouldn't be able to hold their 'world cup' .... The tell tale painted out fitba pitch markings at practically every stadium being used at this one tell their own story, the sporting equivalent of welly burn rings round the legs of kids from my era even in the summer that proved your mum couldn't afford to buy you shoes.

The groundsman at Nice must have been tearing his hair out last night as a scrum ripped the football club's beautiful and clearly newly laid pitch to pieces :confused:

I like rugby by the way ... but the way some folk who follow it delight in looking down on the game I love makes it hard to like them.

I think those of us that love both sports have the best of both worlds.

I grew up in Bath in the 90s, which is about as rugby a city you can live in.

Played with Private school kids, kids like me, and kids from the rough end of town. Same in adult life. Students, labourers, businessmen.

If you love both, you don’t turn your nose up at any game.

I now coach my sons u15 team and am enjoying getting back into the club life again.

J

[Since90+2]

I think those of us that love both sports have the best of both worlds.

I grew up in Bath in the 90s, which is about as rugby a city you can live in.

Played with Private school kids, kids like me, and kids from the rough end of town. Same in adult life. Students, labourers, businessmen.

If you love both, you don’t turn your nose up at any game.

I now coach my sons u15 team and am enjoying getting back into the club life again.

J

Football fans seem to have a far bigger chip on their shoulder about rugby fans than vice versa.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Football fans seem to have a far bigger chip on their shoulder about rugby fans than vice versa.

Yeah - like a reverse snobbery?

There’s also a lack of willing to learn from other sports - VAR was only added years after other sports and still folk haven’t accepted it.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Football fans seem to have a far bigger chip on their shoulder about rugby fans than vice versa.

If there is a chip on the shoulder of fitba fans when it comes to rugby its hardly a surprise when you see some of the comments from rugby fans on social media about our game. Their air of superiority is off the charts.

[Danderhall Hibs]

If there is a chip on the shoulder of fitba fans when it comes to rugby its hardly a surprise when you see some of the comments from rugby fans on social media about our game. Their air of superiority is off the charts.

You think it’s whataboutery then?

I like both sports so struggle when you get the polar sides just arguing and talking the other down rather than trying to learn from each other.

[Kato]

The one thing from rugby that would improve football straight away is being able to advance a free kick a few yards at any show of dissent from the side who fouled. Probably a disaster in Scotland but in countries that have a normal refereeing culture it would benefit the game and matches as a spectacle.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Seafield Scott]

The one thing from rugby that would improve football straight away is being able to advance a free kick a few yards at any show of dissent from the side who fouled. Probably a disaster in Scotland but in countries that have a normal refereeing culture it would benefit the game and matches as a spectacle.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk


I totally agree. Another one to consider would be continuing the game to progress while the medical teams attend an injury (Head injuries obv excluded) - to reduce stoppages and discourage feigning injuries.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I totally agree. Another one to consider would be continuing the game to progress while the medical teams attend an injury (Head injuries obv excluded) - to reduce stoppages and discourage feigning injuries.

Yip. And treating head knocks seriously, which would stop the game being slowed down as soon as a team go 1-0 up.

[Brightside]

Shouldn't this be on the Other Sports forum? :wink:

[Danderhall Hibs]

Shouldn't this be on the Other Sports forum? :wink:

Talking about how to improve football mate.

[Jones28]

Great to see the ref in the game tonight hold his hands up for whistling too early for an advantage.

[wookie70]

Our rugby refs are p!$# as well, don’t think we have any at the current WC, may have a touch judge or VAR ref. That’s because we don’t have any full time refs The male ones may be. We have one of the best female refs in world rugby

[wookie70]

Rugby is a little different in the way of the reason the majority of international players will come through ''Private Schools'' in Scotland is more often than not due to them getting scholarships at your Watsons, Stewarts Melville etc when they show ability at a young age as Edinburgh & Glasgow don't have u15's teams for example.


I think the biggest difference is from a young age we are told not to speak to the ref or the team gets punished (marched back 10 yards or down to 14 men from a sin bin) whereas in football refs get abused right the way up from youth level as these kids see it on the TV every weekend in the Premier League. They need to be harder on players across the board who are abusive even sending's off if necessary.

The VAR/TMO Debate is always an interesting one. TMO having one person doing it and one person speaking to the ref seems to work miles better than what VAR is, the english audio released with the 5 people all shouting at eachother shows what an utter shambles it is. Having one person in there explaining his reasoning for giving x y z decision would make the whole thing so much more easier to understand for fans across the boards.

I was offered a scholarship at Heriots and at least half of that was down to my sporting abilities. Turned it down though to go with my mates to Porty. One of the lads that played in my sons Rugby team got a scholarship at Loretto and is well on his way to making a living out the game.

[IvanSproule]

That's Rugby's culture though, has been forever and it works for them. For me hearing the players call the ref "sir" always jars me.
Football's culture is that the ref has to have a thick skin and will be challenged on the pitch. Obviously this goes too far sometimes, but I prefer it to the cap-doffing in rugby.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[wookie70]

That's Rugby's culture though, has been forever and it works for them. For me hearing the players call the ref "sir" always jars me.
Football's culture is that the ref has to have a thick skin and will be challenged on the pitch. Obviously this goes too far sometimes, but I prefer it to the cap-doffing in rugby.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I played Rugby for well over a decade and never called a ref Sir once.

[Jones28]

That's Rugby's culture though, has been forever and it works for them. For me hearing the players call the ref "sir" always jars me.
Football's culture is that the ref has to have a thick skin and will be challenged on the pitch. Obviously this goes too far sometimes, but I prefer it to the cap-doffing in rugby.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

It doesn’t go too far sometimes, it’s too far almost all the time.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I played Rugby for well over a decade and never called a ref Sir once.

You kept that quiet Si! ☺️

[wookie70]

You kept that quiet Si! ☺️

Played Cricket and Basketball too at a decent level. Porty was brilliant for sport.

[Greenbeard]

I just have visions of Craig Napier shouting at Dylan Vente .... "Stay onside number nine" Rugby refs all seem to be frustrated coaches and managers. Don't rugby players learn the rules ( sorry 'laws' ) when they start playing, that the ref has to talk them through the game? :greengrin

There's a plethora of Rugby sites on social media who all seem to delight in making disparaging comparisons between the beautiful game and theirs. Not least the famous 'this isn't football' comment by a ref in a world cup match at St James's park when a player went down, which they lapped up.

They did seem to get a wee bit defensive when the likes of me pointed out the irony that if it wasn't for the game they are so keen to trash they wouldn't be able to hold their 'world cup' .... The tell tale painted out fitba pitch markings at practically every stadium being used at this one tell their own story, the sporting equivalent of welly burn rings round the legs of kids from my era even in the summer that proved your mum couldn't afford to buy you shoes.

The groundsman at Nice must have been tearing his hair out last night as a scrum ripped the football club's beautiful and clearly newly laid pitch to pieces :confused:

I like rugby by the way ... but the way some folk who follow it delight in looking down on the game I love makes it hard to like them.
Of course they do but ever since refs started warning players like that (which was a directive to let the game flow rather than whistling without warning at the slightest breach of the laws and having a game of endless penalties) players are now coached to see what they can get away with. Sneak over the offside line or put your hands on the ball in a ruck when not properly on your feet etc and you know you'll usually just get warned off first time rather than giving away a penalty. Sure, skulduggery happened in the old days too but you usually tried to get away with it unseen by the ref whereas now you can just openly test the ref knowing you will just get told off.

[Greenbeard]

BTW that Peter Wright bloke is a right toff.

[PatHead]

Notice the Scotland coach had a right moan at VAR for both of our matches. Particularly the VAR team making the referee redundant.

Maybe rugby refereeing is not the promised land and measure we were led to believe.

Especially about the faceless ones in the bunker.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Notice the Scotland coach had a right moan at VAR for both of our matches. Particularly the VAR team making the referee redundant.

Maybe rugby refereeing is not the promised land and measure we were led to believe.

Especially about the faceless ones in the bunker.

I don't think anyone has said they always get it right. The rule changes and the addition of the bunker to have made things more difficult.

[green day]

Notice the Scotland coach had a right moan at VAR for both of our matches. Particularly the VAR team making the referee redundant.

Maybe rugby refereeing is not the promised land and measure we were led to believe.

Especially about the faceless ones in the bunker.

In yesterdays match, the ref should have sent off a Tonga player on 35 minutes - instead, he took the easy option of a Yellow and bunker review which came back with a questionable upholding of the yellow card and the boy came back on 2nd half.

He did the same late on in the match with another yellow which - again - could comfortably have been a red.

Basically, the bunker now allows the ref to abdicate responsibility as they know its going to be reviewed - same as happens in some situations in football.

Not ideal and not (imv) an improvement for rugby.

[Danderhall Hibs]

In yesterdays match, the ref should have sent off a Tonga player on 35 minutes - instead, he took the easy option of a Yellow and bunker review which came back with a questionable upholding of the yellow card and the boy came back on 2nd half.

He did the same late on in the match with another yellow which - again - could comfortably have been a red.

Basically, the bunker now allows the ref to abdicate responsibility as they know its going to be reviewed - same as happens in some situations in football.

Not ideal and not (imv) an improvement for rugby.

It's to speed up the decision process though so there is logic. Is it worth at least a yellow? If yes, get him off and decide in the 10 mins he's off if it should be a red. Should allow time to make the correct decision and the game to get on with it instead of everyone standing looking at a screen.

For some reason though there seems to have been a rule change about head knocks that the refs haven't told players, fans and pundits about.

[weecounty hibby]

Refs have been hindered by World Rugby. They have brought in these laws, which are 100% the right thing to do, but have realised that games are going to finish short handed until players get their act together and follow the laws. In the mean time they seem determined to make nailed on red cards, if following the law, yellows to avoid reds. And if that tackle had been on an English, NZ, SA, Irish, French or Welsh player it would have been upgraded. Scotland are, and have been for a number of years now, an easy target for refereeing/TMO decisions.

[Greenbeard]

It's to speed up the decision process though so there is logic. Is it worth at least a yellow? If yes, get him off and decide in the 10 mins he's off if it should be a red. Should allow time to make the correct decision and the game to get on with it instead of everyone standing looking at a screen.

For some reason though there seems to have been a rule change about head knocks that the refs haven't told players, fans and pundits about.
In principle the bunker system sounds good. What it does do, is take away on-field immediate red cards which subsequently are deemed only worthy of a yellow but the team has had to play the rest of the game minus a player who should only have had 10 mins. That must be a good thing.
Am I right that it's a team of three in the bunker? If so, how many do we now have in the referee team to make key decisions like this?
The on-field team is four - ref, two touch judges or assistant refs, and the No.4 (who manages the touchline but has often been seen joining the other three for on-field reviews) - plus the Television Match Official (usually sat in the tv van so he can get whatever angle he wants), and now three in the bunker, so that's EIGHT people potentially involved in a red/yellow call. Or if your from Ireland it's NINE with Johnny Sexton chipping in too. :wink:
Then you've got the Citing Officer and then if a red is confirmed, a Discipline Panel of three to determine the sanction, then maybe an Appeals Committee of another three.