Scottish Clubs in Europe

[Keith_M]

Four Scottish clubs played in Europe this week and the combined score was scored 2, conceded 15.

When I was a kid, the Scottish clubs often did reasonably well, sometimes competing with top level European sides. Now I know this was an exceptionally bad week, but we do seem to have regressed quite a bit.

The questions are; why have we dropped so significantly, and what could be done to improve our results and standing in Europe?

[Hibernia&Alba]

We were all ragdolled, though I must admit I immensely enjoyed seeing the others hammered :greengrin

[Bishop Hibee]

I actually thought Hibs and Hearts had decent results against Lucern and Rosenberg. The days of Hibs beating Napoli, Hearts beating Bayern Munich at home etc are over. If Hibs got massive investment from a multi-millionaire, our results would improve hugely. Simple really.

[Dr What If?]

Money is the obvious answer. Scottish football doesn't generate nearly enough income when compared to leagues in Europe, so despite having gate receipts at an individual level that many a league would envy, TV and sponsorship put us on the back foot.

When you look at the ties on an individual level the picture is quite clear. Us and the Hun were punching streets ahead of ourselves and a hiding was always on the cards. Aberdeen had a tough tie but poor finishing and lax defending meant they pretty much knocked themselves out. Hearts were the ones who had a shot against a side of relatively similar status and really should have done better (shame :greengrin).

Obviously there are questions over grass roots and coaching but still the main defining factor is the commercial side. SPFL just needs better businessmen who can negotiate our relative worth to those investing in football.

[Real Emerald]

Four Scottish clubs played in Europe this week and the combined score was scored 2, conceded 15.

When I was a kid, the Scottish clubs often did reasonably well, sometimes competing with top level European sides. Now I know this was an exceptionally bad week, but we do seem to have regressed quite a bit.

The questions are; why have we dropped so significantly, and what could be done to improve our results and standing in Europe?

The obvious answer is money but you need to ask why we’re so far behind in that respect? It’s criminal that we pay the same Sky subscriptions that punters down South pay but the money from Sky UK is extremely poor coming back in a TV deal. Also, the way Scottish football tries everything it can to keep the cartel of Celtic and Rangers basically stops any meaningful league competition. It’s a self serving spiral to the bottom. Who would plough money into such a corrupt set up?

[Stairway 2 7]

Wonder if there is similar navel gazing on Swiss forums. Two of their teams beat by Scots or in Sweeden, their champions scrapped through against our 3rd.

We're a level bellow the top leagues and just like other small nations the gap will get bigger due to money

[The Spaceman]

Worst results in Europe this season so far:

1. Inter Descales 2 - 1 Hibs.
2. PAOK 4 - 0 Hearts.
3. PSV 5 - 1 Rangers.
4. Aberdeen 1 - 3 Haken.
5. Hibs 0 - 5 Aston Villa.

[Waxy]

Maybe time the big Five countries played euro football against each other.

[greenginger]

Do the Greeks or Swedes have more resources than Hearts or Dons.
Does PSV have more than Rangers ?

[Stairway 2 7]

Do the Greeks or Swedes have more resources than Hearts or Dons.
Does PSV have more than Rangers ?

Greeks double wage bill of hearts, Sweeds although champions similar to Aberdeen, Rangers slightly more than PSV.

[Since452]

Hibs and Hearts were always going out to those teams. Rangers and especially Aberdeen had a great opportunity. Rangers embarrassed themselves.

[Scorrie]

Rubbish tv deal and a too small top league. And too dominated by the uglies so no change will happen.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Do the Greeks or Swedes have more resources than Hearts or Dons.
Does PSV have more than Rangers ?

Barry Robson commented before the game last night that Haken had a couple £1M signings in their team.
Haken are more comparable to Ross County or St.Johnstone than they are to Aberdeen, Hearts or ourselves. As has been said, its the disparity in commercial and TV incomes that make the difference.
Bodo in the Arctic Circle will receive many millions more than us in these areas.

[Stairway 2 7]

Barry Robson commented before the game last night that Haken had a couple £1M signings in their team.
Haken are more comparable to Ross County or St.Johnstone than they are to Aberdeen, Hearts or ourselves. As has been said, its the disparity in commercial and TV incomes that make the difference.
Bodo in the Arctic Circle will receive many millions more than us in these areas.

That's just him making excuses, Hackens turnover is similar to Aberdeen and they are champions of Sweeden, both dwarfed by our champions. Hacken just got knocked out the champions league by a team from Faroe Islands so it isn't just about money I suppose.

As I say Swiss must be apoplectic as two of their teams got knocked out by two Scottish teams, both who were on a poor run of form

Rosenburg also got knocked out by a team of no marks

[Skol]

Money is a big part but it’s nit just that. Most of these sides have quality local talent as well as big money players. If you look at Scotland as a whole we have very few players who can operate at that level. Those that can often move awAy. Calum mcgregor is arguably the only player of quality still in Scotland at the team he came through with.

[ScottB]

Money is the answer for us getting hosed by Villa. Rangers and PSV are not far apart at all in terms of income, not sure about Aberdeen v their opponent, and PAOK are one of the better draws a Scottish team could have hoped for.

It’s easy to say money, and it’s a factor, but also we’re just not particularly good…

[Wakeyhibee]

Four Scottish clubs played in Europe this week and the combined score was scored 2, conceded 15.

When I was a kid, the Scottish clubs often did reasonably well, sometimes competing with top level European sides. Now I know this was an exceptionally bad week, but we do seem to have regressed quite a bit.

The questions are; why have we dropped so significantly, and what could be done to improve our results and standing in Europe?

I think we've stood still whilst all around have improved.

I still think our set up in Scotland goes against improvement both in governance and structure. The league structure is attritional financially for all but the top two and even they struggle outside of Scotland.

We have essentially an administrator running the governance and promotion of the game financially. We should be looking to emulate other countries in how they sell the game and getting the right people in the position needed to achieve this.

The SFA is largely the same. The recent plans (shelved fortunately) for Hampden had a curtain planned for low attendances how more backward thinking can you get?

I don't buy the population argument as other similar countries do better at club & national level. The one unique difference we do have is the gulf between the OF v the rest and getting them to move for the betterment of the game as a whole is the main sticking point.

[hibby rae]

Four Scottish clubs played in Europe this week and the combined score was scored 2, conceded 15.

When I was a kid, the Scottish clubs often did reasonably well, sometimes competing with top level European sides. Now I know this was an exceptionally bad week, but we do seem to have regressed quite a bit.

The questions are; why have we dropped so significantly, and what could be done to improve our results and standing in Europe?

I disagree, I think if you compare to how far Scottish clubs, especially non-Old Firm clubs have got in the last decade or so, getting to the play-offs is a sign of progress. In years gone by Hibs and Hearts would have went out in the previous round and the results are down to playing better opposition than we previously did, in time results against these clubs may improve as well.

[Waxy]

Aberdeen in the same group as PAOK

[overdrive]

Money is the obvious answer. Scottish football doesn't generate nearly enough income when compared to leagues in Europe, so despite having gate receipts at an individual level that many a league would envy, TV and sponsorship put us on the back foot.

When you look at the ties on an individual level the picture is quite clear. Us and the Hun were punching streets ahead of ourselves and a hiding was always on the cards. Aberdeen had a tough tie but poor finishing and lax defending meant they pretty much knocked themselves out. Hearts were the ones who had a shot against a side of relatively similar status and really should have done better (shame :greengrin).

Obviously there are questions over grass roots and coaching but still the main defining factor is the commercial side. SPFL just needs better businessmen who can negotiate our relative worth to those investing in football.

Rangers have a broadly similar turnover to PSV.

[Lago]

Four Scottish clubs played in Europe this week and the combined score was scored 2, conceded 15.

When I was a kid, the Scottish clubs often did reasonably well, sometimes competing with top level European sides. Now I know this was an exceptionally bad week, but we do seem to have regressed quite a bit.

The questions are; why have we dropped so significantly, and what could be done to improve our results and standing in Europe?
Get use to it because that's the future

[ScottB]

Ultimately it’s a case of us understanding our position. Perhaps it’s tougher for Scotland, a nation that has clubs that have previously competed for and won the big prizes to adjust its outlook to be in line with other smaller nations.

We aren’t going to beat bigger clubs on skill alone, but we can absolutely be fit, strong and up for the fight. Everyone involved is a full time professional athlete, sure we can’t compete on skill, but we should be trying to at least match up in terms of physicality etc.

[Jack]

I posted this on the Bounce this morning. Moderated for here 😆

I know some folk aren't keen on Transfermarkt but as a guide to values I reckon it's as good as any.

Hibs has a squad value of €12.35m.

Inter Club d'Escaldes €3.73m so it's just as well we stuffed them ... eventually!

When we played Lucerne we were punching, their squad value is €28.55m. I genuinely thought we'd get beaten and all credit to the team for progressing.

Aston Villa**€603.50m. We were pissing in a gale force hurricane!

So what of the others?

Hertz €15.35m. Rosenborg €18.35m. Close. PAOK €48.30m. Progressing should have been unexpected but they are so ******* deluded.

Sheep €15.78m. Häcken €23.75m. Close too, should have given them a decent shout.

Huns €107.48m. Servette €27.81m, a bit like us and the Andorrans gap wise. It should have been a formality. PSV Eindhoven €180.83m.

Out of all that the best result was us against Lucerne. The match where the biggest financial deficit was overturned. The hertz were the only other club to achieve this.

It might not have been a good week for Scottish football but entirely predictable and not just because of the financial side as mentioned elsewhere.

I think any Scottish club, outwith the OF and even them sometimes, has to get the luck of the draw to stand a decent chance of progressing at these stages of European competitions.

[KWJ]

Aberdeen should really have beaten Hacken. They missed 2 outrageous chances, while Hacken missed an absolute sitter but had a player that looked immense who made the difference. Aberdeen should've done a better job on him rather than let him destroy them.

Hoping they make the same mistakes on Sunday.

[He's here!]

We were all ragdolled, though I must admit I immensely enjoyed seeing the others hammered :greengrin

Yep, said it on another thread but I couldn't care less about the co-efficient. I want to see only Hibs progress in Europe and the sooner the other Scottish clubs crash out the better - preferably in as humiliating a manner as possible.

[DH1875]

I'm not sure how much of it PSV get but to put things into perspective, the Dutch TV deal is worth €180 Million PER YEAR. Ours is worth £30 Million FFS.

[KWJ]

Yep, said it on another thread but I couldn't care less about the co-efficient. I want to see only Hibs progress in Europe and the sooner the other Scottish clubs crash out the better - preferably in as humiliating a manner as possible.

It's a bit of having your cake and eating it too. The other clubs doing well will make it easier for Hibs to do well.

I can just about wish all the teams well, but I do bloody love seeing the tears and seethe in the crowd when they are getting horsed. Best of both worlds.

[PatHead]

We dropped below Turkey last night.

[DH1875]

We dropped below Turkey last night.

I'm surprised we were ahead of them in first place. They have some massive clubs and also make a fortune from sponsorship and TV. Their TV deal also blows ours out the water.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

The obvious answer is money but you need to ask why we’re so far behind in that respect? It’s criminal that we pay the same Sky subscriptions that punters down South pay but the money from Sky UK is extremely poor coming back in a TV deal. Also, the way Scottish football tries everything it can to keep the cartel of Celtic and Rangers basically stops any meaningful league competition. It’s a self serving spiral to the bottom. Who would plough money into such a corrupt set up?

People in Scotland pay Sky etc subscriptions to watch English football, and to a lesser extent Rangers/Celtic there is no market for anything else. Who watches Scottish club football on TV? Very rarely me, zero interest other than watching Hibs, and can't remember last time I paid to watch Hibs on TV.

[Stairway 2 7]

People in Scotland pay Sky etc subscriptions to watch English football, and to a lesser extent Rangers/Celtic there is no market for anything else. Who watches Scottish club football on TV? Very rarely me, zero interest other than watching Hibs, and can't remember last time I paid to watch Hibs on TV.

Think the whole world is obsessed with the EPL for some reason, was there not thousands of Scandinavian Man U season ticket holders

[Real Emerald]

People in Scotland pay Sky etc subscriptions to watch English football, and to a lesser extent Rangers/Celtic there is no market for anything else. Who watches Scottish club football on TV? Very rarely me, zero interest other than watching Hibs, and can't remember last time I paid to watch Hibs on TV.

If that’s the case then Scottish football should have no TV deal if no one wants to watch it. That’s despite Scotland having by far the greatest % of the population actually going to watch football in Europe. I hope you’re not negotiating our next TV deal, what a great advert. 😂

[Lancs Harp]

If that’s the case then Scottish football should have no TV deal if no one wants to watch it. That’s despite Scotland having by far the greatest % of the population actually going to watch football in Europe. I hope you’re not negotiating our next TV deal, what a great advert. 😂

The percentage of population point is a bit mute a bit of a comfort blanket. Most of that figure are watching Celtic or Rangers. None of the rest of us average 20,000 its a very dificult issue to resolve. Money comes from tv and sponsorship but quite obviously our product doesnt attract the required audience. How do you resolve that?

[ScottB]

Our coverage is basically for Old Firm fans to watch away games. So to the neutral get to see one of them, usually comfortably beat a smaller team in a half empty stadium while pundits talk about nothing but the Old Firm.

It’s not how you package a product to a wider audience.

[CentreLine]

People in Scotland pay Sky etc subscriptions to watch English football, and to a lesser extent Rangers/Celtic there is no market for anything else. Who watches Scottish club football on TV? Very rarely me, zero interest other than watching Hibs, and can't remember last time I paid to watch Hibs on TV.

I suppose it’s all about opinions and preferences. I certainly prefer to watch Scottish football because it still retains a passion and reality. I find the EPL robotic and boring. If I do catch a game from England it is likely to be from their Championship. It at least feels genuine and not contrived. For me their EPL is contrived and overhyped whilst likely to be overtaken by the Saudi stuff, because, for these people, it’s all about money.

[DH1875]

The percentage of population point is a bit mute a bit of a comfort blanket. Most of that figure are watching Celtic or Rangers. None of the rest of us average 20,000 its a very dificult issue to resolve. Money comes from tv and sponsorship but quite obviously our product doesnt attract the required audience. How do you resolve that?

If you take rangers and celtic out of it we are still one of the top 10 leagues (its actually better than 10th) support per head of population.
I personally would rather watch a Scottish game than an EPL game. A lot of my mates are the same.

[Lancs Harp]

If you take rangers and celtic out of it we are still one of the top 10 leagues (its actually better than 10th) support per head of population.
I personally would rather watch a Scottish game than an EPL game. A lot of my mates are the same.

I see it from both sides mate. Im an English Hibee, I do love watching the EPL and other top leagues across Europe, the standard of football is often amazing (just look at how good Villa were). I often get asked why I support Hibs and a great part of that is harking back to the game i knew as a youngster, raw, honest, passionate, emotional. I was so proud of our fans last night.

I love football its been my passion virtually from the day I was born but Hibs is my team for better or for worse

[Real Emerald]

Our coverage is basically for Old Firm fans to watch away games. So to the neutral get to see one of them, usually comfortably beat a smaller team in a half empty stadium while pundits talk about nothing but the Old Firm.

It’s not how you package a product to a wider audience.

Completely agree, it’s an old firm away game package. They rather show a dead rubber Celtic away game in place of an Edinburgh derby that had a lot riding on it for example. If I was English and tuning in I’d much rather watch a derby game but that’s not their agenda. It’s a Glasgow perception that the rest of Scottish football is only there to facilitate the arse cheeks success.

There’s not much we can do about Sky but the BBC facilitates this agenda too. Unless we can package and promote the other clubs as well and make the league more even, nothing will change and that’s exactly how the SFA/SPFL want it to be. Everything is done to facilitate the continuation of the cartel to the detriment of everything else.

[Pagan Hibernia]

People in Scotland pay Sky etc subscriptions to watch English football, and to a lesser extent Rangers/Celtic there is no market for anything else. Who watches Scottish club football on TV? Very rarely me, zero interest other than watching Hibs, and can't remember last time I paid to watch Hibs on TV.

I must be mad but I watch a fair amount of Scottish football. Its rarely pretty, but it's earthy and more soulful to me than the glamour leagues ever will be. It's blood and thunder and passion.

I do accept that I'm in a tiny minority though and your point about there not being an adequate market for our game abroad is impossible to argue with at the moment

[Tommy75]

The percentage of population point is a bit mute a bit of a comfort blanket. Most of that figure are watching Celtic or Rangers. None of the rest of us average 20,000 its a very dificult issue to resolve. Money comes from tv and sponsorship but quite obviously our product doesnt attract the required audience. How do you resolve that?

Agreed, the whole % of population thing isn't quite the achievement a lot of folk think it is. Last season 7 teams in our top league averaged less than 10k. Throw in the fact that the likes of Ross County, Livi and St Johnstone are regularly outnumbered by away fans, it doesn't point to a population coming out to watch a spread of teams across the country.

If you look at a typical week and add the Celtic/Rangers home supporters with the Celtic/Rangers away supporters that week, it would be more than the rest of the attendances across all the leagues in the country put together.

The game is knackered up here and we are so far behind. Unfortunately there is no apetite from those running the game because the status quo suits the 2 Glasgow clubs. I'd like to see a 20 team league, ideally we'd have 2 teams regularly in the CL group stages and a batch of 4 or 5 different teams regularly in the Europa/Conference group stages to get money flowing through the game here. Chances of it happening? 0.

[hibby rae]

People in Scotland pay Sky etc subscriptions to watch English football, and to a lesser extent Rangers/Celtic there is no market for anything else. Who watches Scottish club football on TV? Very rarely me, zero interest other than watching Hibs, and can't remember last time I paid to watch Hibs on TV.

Personally speaking I'd far rather watch a Scottish game than an English one. Big fan of the Championship on BBC Scotland on Friday nights

[Phil MaGlass]

The obvious answer is money but you need to ask why we’re so far behind in that respect? It’s criminal that we pay the same Sky subscriptions that punters down South pay but the money from Sky UK is extremely poor coming back in a TV deal. Also, the way Scottish football tries everything it can to keep the cartel of Celtic and Rangers basically stops any meaningful league competition. It’s a self serving spiral to the bottom. Who would plough money into such a corrupt set up?
The reason is we didnt go with SKY but went with Setanta, then when that went tils up they said F you Scotland, you will take what we offer, simple.

[Musselbound]

Absolutely atrocious. It was the same last year with Rangers and Dundee United losing 7-0. How Scotland is still 10th in the UEFA coefficient is beyond me. Can only assume it still has a lot to do with Rangers making the Europa League final.

[Musselbound]

Personally speaking I'd far rather watch a Scottish game than an English one. Big fan of the Championship on BBC Scotland on Friday nights

Don't know about that but at least the Scottish Championship is quite difficult to predict - unlike the Scottish Premiership. I do enjoy watching the games too.

[Lancs Harp]

Anyone help my rangers supporting mate, he's trying to book flights up for their European group tour but cant find a flight to Betis. Had his Times atlas out, the lot. Cant find a City called Betis anywhere.

[DH1875]

Don't know about that but at least the Scottish Championship is quite difficult to predict - unlike the Scottish Premiership. I do enjoy watching the games too.

Not sure about that. I predict Dundee Utd will win it quite comfortably.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The top four co- efficient leagues shouldn't be involved in the Conference

[hhibs]

If you take rangers and celtic out of it we are still one of the top 10 leagues (its actually better than 10th) support per head of population.
I personally would rather watch a Scottish game than an EPL game. A lot of my mates are the same.Well said information that needs rammed home to those ignorant souls that continually sell our product short.

[Wilson]

Not sure about that. I predict Dundee Utd will win it quite comfortably.

They should based on budget alone. I don't think they'll beat Airdrie tomorrow though so they aren't going top yet!

[NAE NOOKIE]

Personally speaking I'd far rather watch a Scottish game than an English one. Big fan of the Championship on BBC Scotland on Friday nights

Me as well .... I'll watch pretty well any game of football to be honest, but if the Scottish Championship game was on versus match of the day on a Saturday night I'd watch the Championship game all day long.

[Musselbound]

Not sure about that. I predict Dundee Utd will win it quite comfortably.

Probably favourites but nowhere near as certain as Celtic winning Premiership. Or easy to predict top two.

[Stanton Spence]

The top four co- efficient leagues shouldn't be involved in the Conference

I said that yesterday on another thread,well actually I said the top 5 leagues including France. At the least these teams shouldn’t be in the playoff rounds but I’m not sure how it would all work

[lucky]

Our performances in Europe are reflected by what clubs can spend due to TV revenue. Brentford signing players for £40m shows how the Sky money has corrupted the marketplace. Making the league bigger will reduce the share each club gets. A fairer distribution of cash is splitting the gate revenue of every game. That way all clubs would be equal but it's never going to happen. Scottish football is well-watched but the % of population stat does not paint a true picture. The old firm is miles in front then Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts. The rest barely register. There is no easy solution to Scottish football problems, but we are doing a lot better than Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic. But the English Premiership is huge and the Championship is the third best-attended league in Europe. The only thing that might change the EPL position is the Saudi League buying up all the best players.

Europe is a great adventure, playing different teams but sadly no Scottish team, including the Old Firm is going to do much in the next few years. Our best hope is we finish third and get to the group stages of the conference league. But we are never going to compete with a club like Villa, especially with the TV money they receive.

[marinello59]

Personally speaking I'd far rather watch a Scottish game than an English one. Big fan of the Championship on BBC Scotland on Friday nights

I’m the same, I love our game.

[Is It On....]

Do the Greeks or Swedes have more resources than Hearts or Dons.
Does PSV have more than Rangers ?

TV deals

Netherlands £90m (£170m from 2025)
Greece £58m
Sweden £40m
Scotland £25m (£30m from 2025)

Think about the year on year cumulative effect. BBC Scotland are a vasel offshoot of BBC England who have no interest in Scottish football.

Very good article about how PAOK refused a poor TV deal a few years ago and went alone with their own streaming and subsequently got a much better deal a few years later (they still control their overseas rights). The deal Scottish clubs are getting is poor and, given the issues we have with Hibs TV, we could do worse than getting a teach in from PAOK about how to do it.

[DH1875]

TV deals

Netherlands £90m
Greece £58m
Sweden £40m
Scotland £25m

Think about the year on year cumulative effect. BBC Scotland are a vasel offshoot of BBC England who have no interest in Scottish football.

Very good article about how PAOK refused a poor TV deal a few years ago and went alone with their own streaming and subsequently got a much better deal a few years later (they still control their overseas rights). The deal Scottish clubs are getting is poor and, given the issues we have with Hibs TV, we could do worse than getting a teach in from PAOK about how to do it.

Have Netherlands not just signed a new deal worth €180 million per year?

[Since90+2]

I’m the same, I love our game.

Me too. I'd honestly rather watch Partick V Dunfermline on a Friday night than a West Ham v Bournemouth or something similar.

[Is It On....]

Have Netherlands not just signed a new deal worth €180 million per year?

Just checked and you are correct; the new offer is €2bn over 10yrs. So by 2030, Dutch football will have generated £854m (€1bn) whilst Scottish clubs will generate £150m from the new deal.

[Since90+2]

Just checked and you are correct; the new offer is €2bn over 10yrs. So by 2030, Dutch football will have generated £854m (€1bn) whilst Scottish clubs will generate £150m from the new deal.

The population of Holland is 3x that of Scotland, it also is more attractive to overseas broadcasters than the Scottish League as it's a higher standard.

The figures should be closer between the two countries, but they'll always be significantly higher.

How does a country of a similar size and league standard compare to Scotland, say Croatia?

[Is It On....]

The population of Holland is 3x that of Scotland, it also is more attractive to overseas broadcasters than the Scottish League as it's a higher standard.

The figures should be closer between the two countries, but they'll always be significantly higher.

How does a country of a similar size and league standard compare to Scotland, say Croatia?

Noway - population 5.5m
TV Deal - £55m

Which ever way you assess it, £25m (30m from next year) for Scottish football is a great deal for the broadcasters and a terrible deal for the Scottish game.

[Lancs Harp]

Noway - population 5.5m
TV Deal - £55m

Which ever way you assess it, £25m (30m from next year) for Scottish football is a great deal for the broadcasters and a terrible deal for the Scottish game.

It is a bad deal for the Scottish game but the broadcasters will be paying what they think the product is worth. No one seems to be queueing up to pay more.

Is this an issue with the Broadcasters or the actual product? Or a bit of both?

[DH1875]

Noway - population 5.5m
TV Deal - £55m

Which ever way you assess it, £25m (30m from next year) for Scottish football is a great deal for the broadcasters and a terrible deal for the Scottish game.

Especially when you consider (as much as we hate them) that we supposedly have 2 of the biggest clubs in the world in our league. Yeah its crap they show their away games and don't show the derby but if they are the selling point, then sell it.

[007]

TV deals

Netherlands £90m (£170m from 2025)
Greece £58m
Sweden £40m
Scotland £25m (£30m from 2025)

Think about the year on year cumulative effect. BBC Scotland are a vasel offshoot of BBC England who have no interest in Scottish football.

Very good article about how PAOK refused a poor TV deal a few years ago and went alone with their own streaming and subsequently got a much better deal a few years later (they still control their overseas rights). The deal Scottish clubs are getting is poor and, given the issues we have with Hibs TV, we could do worse than getting a teach in from PAOK about how to do it.

That's just the total amounts though, what about other factors such as the number of matches? For example the Greek and Swedish deals are for 4 times the number of games of the Scottish deal so they're getting a lot less per game than we are. Don't know how many the Dutch deal is for.

[Since90+2]

Especially when you consider (as much as we hate them) that we supposedly have 2 of the biggest clubs in the world in our league. Yeah its crap they show their away games and don't show the derby but if they are the selling point, then sell it.

We don't have 2 of the biggest clubs in the world in our league. That's just nonsense trotted out by the West Coast Media.

Do you think if you asked fans in England, Spain, Italy, Germany ect ect to name in their opinion the biggest clubs anyone would say either of the old firm? You could probably ask a 1000 fans in each and id be confident none would name either of the Glasgow clubs.

[Michael]

We don't have 2 of the biggest clubs in the world in our league. That's just nonsense trotted out by the West Coast Media.

Do you think if you asked fans in England, Spain, Italy, Germany ect ect to name in their opinion the biggest clubs anyone would say either of the old firm? You could probably ask a 1000 fans in each and id be confident none would name either of the Glasgow clubs.

Don't know about that, anywhere I go people talk to me about the old firm derby (until I tell them about the hibees).

[Since90+2]

Don't know about that, anywhere I go people talk to me about the old firm derby (until I tell them about the hibees).

It's a big derby no doubt. But so is the Belgrade derby, doesn't make their clubs amongst the biggest in the world.

[Is It On....]

It is a bad deal for the Scottish game but the broadcasters will be paying what they think the product is worth. No one seems to be queueing up to pay more.

Is this an issue with the Broadcasters or the actual product? Or a bit of both?

They are paying what they can get away with; £30m for Scottish Football vs £15m for English Women's Football

[Lancs Harp]

They are paying what they can get away with; £30m for Scottish Football vs £15m for English Women's Football

They are paying what they think its worth and there isnt a queue of Broadcasters waiting to step in and pay more.

[Is It On....]

They are paying what they think its worth and there isnt a queue of Broadcasters waiting to step in and pay more.

https://offthepitch.com/a/paok-fc-disrupted-football-tv-rights-greece-when-they-rejected-broadcast-deal-favour-their-own

[Michael]

It's a big derby no doubt. But so is the Belgrade derby, doesn't make their clubs amongst the biggest in the world.

Depends who you define biggest clubs I guess. Obviously they have no draw whatsoever for top players, but they are two of the most supported clubs.

[Since90+2]

Depends who you define biggest clubs I guess. Obviously they have no draw whatsoever for top players, but they are two of the most supported clubs.

Theres probably about a dozen clubs in South America alone who have bigger supports than them.

[Pagan Hibernia]

The percentage of population point is a bit mute a bit of a comfort blanket. Most of that figure are watching Celtic or Rangers. None of the rest of us average 20,000 its a very dificult issue to resolve. Money comes from tv and sponsorship but quite obviously our product doesnt attract the required audience. How do you resolve that?

I mean, most leagues will have a couple of big clubs that people want to watch and who will also inflate the overall attendance figures for that league.

I doubt if there's many people outside a particular country that really want to watch matches not involving the biggest teams in that country. Same as here. Yet our TV deal is still rubbish compared to other places

[Is It On....]

They are paying what they think its worth and there isnt a queue of Broadcasters waiting to step in and pay more.

How many organisations do you think the BBC is competing against to have to pay Lineker, Shearer, Richards and Jenus c£4m (inc benefits) per year? We need professionals at the top of our game to sort this out because we will fall that little bit further behind for every year that passes without change

[He's here!]

People in Scotland pay Sky etc subscriptions to watch English football, and to a lesser extent Rangers/Celtic there is no market for anything else. Who watches Scottish club football on TV? Very rarely me, zero interest other than watching Hibs, and can't remember last time I paid to watch Hibs on TV.

You just need to look at today's fixtures featuring Killie, Ross Co, Livi, St Mirren, Dundee and St Johnstone. Who, apart from fans of those clubs, would actually opt to spend their afternoon watching them if the games were on TV? As someone else has said, the Sky deal is for Old Firm fans to watch away games.

[ScottB]

The problem with TV deals is you can’t compare us to other small nations, because as a TV market, we aren’t a country. We share a broadcast market with not just one bigger league, but arguably 3 or 4 that are bigger. We’ve basically got a TV deal for a 4th or 5th tier league in one country.

If Scotland was a country in its own right, our own Sky equivalent would have foreign rights to show English games (way cheaper) and the Scottish rights as its primary focus. But instead we have a single British Sky, BBC etc that, quite understandably, sees the English Premier League, Championship etc as the main product. Within the UK market, the SPL is small, probably floating around League 1 or 2 in terms of attendance, average audience etc.

[Keith_M]

Austria, which literally has no teams anywhere near the size* of the OF and where football is not the main sport (it's skiing) have an annual TV deal of £40M.

The population is roughly 60% larger than Scotland's but most have little to no interest in football (so very much different to here)



* The best supported club by far is Rapid, which has average attendances around the same as Hibs and Hearts

[chippy]

Two options that could see a substantial TV deal or deals:
1) SPFL tv steaming service - your clubs away games available live- surely that would generate increased revenues ? No middleman with Sky or BT
2) A televised Atlantic league: run in conjunction with a 16 team premier league. Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Danish, Irish clubs. Structured like the new Uefa formats that start next year. Say 40 clubs with Scotland getting 8 teams . Play 10 games in group stage 5 home 5 away. Top 16 qualify for knock outs. That’s a market of 40 million. Only way we’ll get a decent TV deal

[PHeffernan]

Two options that could see a substantial TV deal or deals:
1) SPFL tv steaming service - your clubs away games available live- surely that would generate increased revenues ? No middleman with Sky or BT
2) A televised Atlantic league: run in conjunction with a 16 team premier league. Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Danish, Irish clubs. Structured like the new Uefa formats that start next year. Say 40 clubs with Scotland getting 8 teams . Play 10 games in group stage 5 home 5 away. Top 16 qualify for knock outs. That’s a market of 40 million. Only way we’ll get a decent TV deal

Re 1. I can't see it working given how many people will simply steal the games with IPTV firesticks and small sales equals small money.

[7Hero]

I actually thought Hibs and Hearts had decent results against Lucern and Rosenberg. The days of Hibs beating Napoli, Hearts beating Bayern Munich at home etc are over. If Hibs got massive investment from a multi-millionaire, our results would improve hugely. Simple really.

we are already owned by a multi millionaire, we need a Billionaire...

[PHeffernan]

Noway - population 5.5m
TV Deal - £55m

Which ever way you assess it, £25m (30m from next year) for Scottish football is a great deal for the broadcasters and a terrible deal for the Scottish game.

Is that right?
The Norwegian TV deal is for their top 2 leagues.
€48m is the cut for their top league but there is far more to it than that.
1. Every match is shown live which destroys their attendances and therefore their matchday incomes.
2. There are 16 teams in their top league so the TV money to each club is further diluted.

In conclusion next season the Norwegian TV deal will be worth an average £400k more per club than the Scottish TV deal.
However, our matchday revenues (tickets, food, hospitality, shop etc etc) will dwarf those of the Norwegian clubs.
So our total matchday revenues, including TV money, far outstrip the Norwegians and our large attendances make for a far better matchday experience for those that go to our games.

[007]

Austria, which literally has no teams anywhere near the size* of the OF and where football is not the main sport (it's skiing) have an annual TV deal of £40M.

The population is roughly 60% larger than Scotland's but most have little to no interest in football (so very much different to here)



* The best supported club by far is Rapid, which has average attendances around the same as Hibs and Hearts

Theirs is 40 million Euros not Pounds.

The SPFL deal works out at around £500k per match, how much are the Austrians getting per match?

[007]

Noway - population 5.5m
TV Deal - £55m

Which ever way you assess it, £25m (30m from next year) for Scottish football is a great deal for the broadcasters and a terrible deal for the Scottish game.

What about if you assess it by how much is paid per match, how do they compare?

[chippy]

Re 1. I can't see it working given how many people will simply steal the games with IPTV firesticks and small sales equals small money.

Not everyone is screwing the system. If it was done as an away TV season ticket bought from your club?

[Keith_M]

Theirs is 40 million Euros not Pounds....

Apologies, you're right, I must have misread that. So it's roughly £35M per year.



...

The SPFL deal works out at around £500k per match, how much are the Austrians getting per match?


Not sure, I'll see if I can find out.

[DH1875]

Interesting that Croatia only gets €9 million per season.
Also Interesting that Scotland gets £500k per game which actually works out to be quite a lot compared to the other leagues (outwith the top 5 big leagues).

[Kato]

Interesting that Croatia only gets €9 million per season.
Also Interesting that Scotland gets £500k per game which actually works out to be quite a lot compared to the other leagues (outwith the top 5 big leagues).Quite a lot for Celtc and the Rangers though.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Michael]

Re 1. I can't see it working given how many people will simply steal the games with IPTV firesticks and small sales equals small money.

It's been shown that if you provide a simple and reliable service then piracy declines. You could say the same about any streaming service - there is always a way to bypass paying if you can be bothered.

[ancient hibee]

The problem with TV deals is you can’t compare us to other small nations, because as a TV market, we aren’t a country. We share a broadcast market with not just one bigger league, but arguably 3 or 4 that are bigger. We’ve basically got a TV deal for a 4th or 5th tier league in one country.

If Scotland was a country in its own right, our own Sky equivalent would have foreign rights to show English games (way cheaper) and the Scottish rights as its primary focus. But instead we have a single British Sky, BBC etc that, quite understandably, sees the English Premier League, Championship etc as the main product. Within the UK market, the SPL is small, probably floating around League 1 or 2 in terms of attendance, average audience etc.

What does our own Sky equivalent mean? If showing Scottish games was its main function it wouldn't last a season. No other country would be interested .

[pacorosssco]

How many folk in England but sky to watch rangers Celtic games doubt many. The other clubs should be pushing share the money equally. The sfa SPL should only let teams have the same number of games each to speed out

[ScottB]

What does our own Sky equivalent mean? If showing Scottish games was its main function it wouldn't last a season. No other country would be interested .

My point was you can’t compare our deal to whatever Denmark, Norway etc get because they are single broadcast markets, with their own TV broadcaster bidding for their own rights as a primary, then other countries as foreign rights, which are consequently cheaper.

We’re the odd one out as we are functionally in the same country as 3 or 4 much bigger leagues, so folk saying Sky should give us more, or the BBC need to spend X are missing that point.

If Scotland was a country with its own broadcasters etc then you could compare whatever those companies were bidding for Scottish football rights to those similar sized nations, for good or for ill. As it stands you’d be better off comparing the SPL deal to whatever Serie C gets.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I suppose it’s all about opinions and preferences. I certainly prefer to watch Scottish football because it still retains a passion and reality. I find the EPL robotic and boring. If I do catch a game from England it is likely to be from their Championship. It at least feels genuine and not contrived. For me their EPL is contrived and overhyped whilst likely to be overtaken by the Saudi stuff, because, for these people, it’s all about money.

Ditto :agree: if there's a clash between two lower league Scottish sides and an EPL game(unless it involved Leeds) i'll normally watch the Scottish game and now Leeds are back in the Championship i've not watched an EPL game, yet

[Eyrie]

My point was you can’t compare our deal to whatever Denmark, Norway etc get because they are single broadcast markets, with their own TV broadcaster bidding for their own rights as a primary, then other countries as foreign rights, which are consequently cheaper.

We’re the odd one out as we are functionally in the same country as 3 or 4 much bigger leagues, so folk saying Sky should give us more, or the BBC need to spend X are missing that point.

If Scotland was a country with its own broadcasters etc then you could compare whatever those companies were bidding for Scottish football rights to those similar sized nations, for good or for ill. As it stands you’d be better off comparing the SPL deal to whatever Serie C gets.

The going rate for Scottish football has already been set.

There won't be enough demand for a separate Scottish channel from Sky, Viaplay or TNT and we already know how much BBC Scotland and STV are willing to pay. Separating the latter two from the UK operations would see them have to commission a lot more original programming than just football.

Any increase would not be the game changing amounts that we all want to see. The only way to achieve that is to offer a more competitive league.

[ScottB]

The going rate for Scottish football has already been set.

There won't be enough demand for a separate Scottish channel from Sky, Viaplay or TNT and we already know how much BBC Scotland and STV are willing to pay. Separating the latter two from the UK operations would see them have to commission a lot more original programming than just football.

Any increase would not be the game changing amounts that we all want to see. The only way to achieve that is to offer a more competitive league.

I’m not saying there should be a separate channel now, as you say it wouldn’t work, more that if Scotland was an independent country with a unique broadcast market (either newly or always had been, not turning this into a constitutional point haha) then it could be compared to similar sized nations.

In the current setup we will always be the niche concern.

[04Sauzee]

Confirmation of fees paid to Hibs and Hearts for competing in Europe this season.

https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/hearts-hibs-conference-league-prize-27673463

[bringbackbenny]

Confirmation of fees paid to Hibs and Hearts for competing in Europe this season.

https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/hearts-hibs-conference-league-prize-27673463

so Hibs get £902k prize money? 644k + 86k * 3 (86 per participated round)

[04Sauzee]

so Hibs get £902k prize money? 644k + 86k * 3 (86 per participated round)

Plus TV money + gate receipts, less obvious travel expenses etc.

Not sure what the bottom line is but sounds like a decent sum.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Plus TV money + gate receipts, less obvious travel expenses etc.

Not sure what the bottom line is but sounds like a decent sum.

Yep. Looking at those figures it's undeniable that it's 'worth it' getting into Europe, even if it doesn't quite feel that way when we get pumped out before the group stage.

The Luzern result as well as being hugely enjoyable, was pretty lucrative for us

[Since452]

So it actually pays to finish lower in the league to get more European money from an extra round? Hibs getting more European prize money than Hearts despite finishing below them just seems daft. Suppose that would be negated by the Premiership prize money.

[CropleyWasGod]

So it actually pays to finish lower in the league to get more European money from an extra round? Suppose that would be negated from the Premiership prize money.

The extra round payment is probably eaten up by the additional expenses.

[Billy Whizz]

So it actually pays to finish lower in the league to get more European money from an extra round? Hibs getting more European prize money than Hearts despite finishing below them just seems daft. Suppose that would be negated by the Premiership prize money.

Hearts got around £500,000 more than Hibs for finishing 4th last season

[Dashing Bob S]

The first team in Europe still rule the roost.