Patrick Harvey "deviant" heckler charged

[Stairway 2 7]

I didn't think deviant was homophobic, ive never used it in that way. I also didn't know or care that Harvey was bisexual. If he was being homophobic ive no sympathy for prosecution. I thought the case would fall apart when two separate tweets Harvey had sent calling people deviants went viral this week. Guess it will be about interpretation and intent. Joanna Cherry not showing support in her retweets


https://news.stv.tv/politics/man-charged-after-homophobic-abuse-hurled-at-scottish-greens-co-leader-patrick-harvie


Joanna Cherry KC reposted
teresa smith
@treesey

But when a woman was punched in broad daylight and there were witnesses to the assault,
@PoliceScotland
issued the perpetrator with a warning.

Can anyone explain the differing approaches going on here?

[CropleyWasGod]

I didn't think deviant was homophobic, ive never used it in that way. I also didn't know or care that Harvey was bisexual. If he was being homophobic ive no sympathy for prosecution. I thought the case would fall apart when two separate tweets Harvey had sent calling people deviants went viral this week. Guess it will be about interpretation and intent. Joanna Cherry not showing support in her retweets


https://news.stv.tv/politics/man-charged-after-homophobic-abuse-hurled-at-scottish-greens-co-leader-patrick-harvie


Joanna Cherry KC reposted
teresa smith
@treesey

But when a woman was punched in broad daylight and there were witnesses to the assault,
@PoliceScotland
issued the perpetrator with a warning.

Can anyone explain the differing approaches going on here?

That's what the Court will test.

[Mon Dieu4]

That's what the Court will test.

What amazing use of the police and courts time, what exactly did someone mean when you called them a deviant?

Just called him a deviant
You did it because he is Bi
No I didn't
Aye you did

Here have a £600 fine

[Ozyhibby]

I didn't think deviant was homophobic, ive never used it in that way. I also didn't know or care that Harvey was bisexual. If he was being homophobic ive no sympathy for prosecution. I thought the case would fall apart when two separate tweets Harvey had sent calling people deviants went viral this week. Guess it will be about interpretation and intent. Joanna Cherry not showing support in her retweets


https://news.stv.tv/politics/man-charged-after-homophobic-abuse-hurled-at-scottish-greens-co-leader-patrick-harvie


Joanna Cherry KC reposted
teresa smith
@treesey

But when a woman was punched in broad daylight and there were witnesses to the assault,
@PoliceScotland
issued the perpetrator with a warning.

Can anyone explain the differing approaches going on here?

Is Cherry saying it’s ok to abuse people so long as it’s not her?


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[CropleyWasGod]

What amazing use of the police and courts time, what exactly did someone mean when you called them a deviant?

Just called him a deviant
You did it because he is Bi
No I didn't
Aye you did

Here have a £600 fine

It's a wee bit like the use of "Hun", which IIRC was tested in Court and was found to be sectarian/non-sectarian (delete whichever it was. I canny mind :greengrin)

It might not even get to Court. The PF might decide there's no chance of a conviction.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is Cherry saying it’s ok to abuse people so long as it’s not her?


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I think she's saying assault gets a pass but shouting abuse at an msp is seen as more serious? She's a gay person so might not think it's homophobic? Unsure

[Ozyhibby]

Just read the article. The bloke is 59 years old. Imagine getting to that age and getting lifted for shouting abuse at gay people. His family must be so proud. [emoji51][emoji23]


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[lapsedhibee]

I didn't think deviant was homophobic, ive never used it in that way.

What sort of people do you hurl it at then? People going round roundabouts the wrong way? People who call roundabouts 'circles'? :dunno:

Be amazed if the miscreant doesn't get fined.

[Stairway 2 7]

What sort of people do you hurl it at then? People going round roundabouts the wrong way? People who call roundabouts 'circles'? :dunno:

Be amazed if the miscreant doesn't get fined.

What you on about who hurls it. I'd call serial killers deviants or pedophiles, pervy certainly not for being gay. Genuinely I've never heard someone call a gay person a deviant, but im not gay so cant comment really i suppose. Maybe that's because I'm in my 30s too young for stonewall and homophobia seems weird behaviour, deviant almost. Checked Cambridge dictionary as I was thinking I'm confused

Deviant adj
"US also deviate"
used to describe a person or behaviour that is not usual and is generally considered to be unacceptable
Synonym
aberrant



aberrant

[Stairway 2 7]

What sort of people do you hurl it at then? People going round roundabouts the wrong way? People who call roundabouts 'circles'? :dunno:

Be amazed if the miscreant doesn't get fined.

I don't think Harvey was being homophobic when using it, I'd probably use it jokingly like him actually
27171

[CropleyWasGod]

What sort of people do you hurl it at then? People going round roundabouts the wrong way? People who call roundabouts 'circles'? :dunno:

Be amazed if the miscreant doesn't get fined.

When I've driven in France, I've seen road signs with the word "Deviation" and an arrow. I would always follow them.

Imagine my disappointment......

[CropleyWasGod]

What you on about who hurls it. I'd call serial killers deviants or pedophiles, pervy certainly not for being gay. Genuinely I've never heard someone call a gay person a deviant, but im not gay so cant comment really i suppose. Maybe that's because I'm in my 30s too young for stonewall and homophobia seems weird behaviour, deviant almost. Checked Cambridge dictionary as I was thinking I'm confused

Deviant adj
"US also deviate"
used to describe a person or behaviour that is not usual and is generally considered to be unacceptable
Synonym
aberrant



aberrant

An entirely subjective concept I'd say.

For some "usual" might mean "once a week, with your spouse of the opposite sex, with the lights off and face-to-face"

For others, that might be highly unusual and unacceptable.... deviant even. :cb


To quote Dorothy Parker.... "heterosexuality is not normal, it's just common".

[Kato]

What you on about who hurls it. I'd call serial killers deviants or pedophiles, pervy certainly not for being gay. Genuinely I've never heard someone call a gay person a deviant, but im not gay so cant comment really i suppose. Maybe that's because I'm in my 30s too young for stonewall and homophobia seems weird behaviour, deviant almost. Checked Cambridge dictionary as I was thinking I'm confused

Deviant adj
"US also deviate"
used to describe a person or behaviour that is not usual and is generally considered to be unacceptable
Synonym
aberrant



aberrantSurprised that you haven't heard the word as an insult and glad at that.

Fwiw "deviant" and "deviancy" were used to describe homosexual behaviours in UK laws of the past. It was literally a technical legal word, based on the bible of course - deviating from whashisnames word. Used as an insult but more as soapbox/pulpit vibe than walking past someone in the street, the hun excepted.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Surprised that you haven't heard the word as an insult and glad at that.

Fwiw "deviant" and "deviancy" were used to describe homosexual behaviours in UK laws of the past. It was literally a technical legal word, based on the bible of course - deviating from whashisnames word. Used as an insult but more as soapbox/pulpit vibe than walking past someone in the street, the hun excepted.

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Which ******g victorian thinks homosexual sex is deviant, surely its pretty vanilla nowadays. Deviant I would think as pervy and wrong.

I just recently found out it was 2000s gay sex was legalised for over 16s mental.

I watched a documentary about George Michael a few weeks ago, I was genuinely shocked sitting with my mouth open when I saw some of the headlines in the Sun and Mail. Talking separately about both AIDS and GM, using words like poofter and saying gay virus. If they are alive I hope the editors are ashamed but I doubt it

I digress. If its common to call someone gay a deviant and that's what the shouter was meaning I obviously hope he's done.

[CropleyWasGod]

Which ******g victorian thinks homosexual sex is deviant, surely its pretty vanilla nowadays. Deviant I would think as pervy and wrong.

I just recently found out it was 2000s gay sex was legalised for over 16s mental.

I watched a documentary about George Michael a few weeks ago, I was genuinely shocked sitting with my mouth open when I saw some of the headlines in the Sun and Mail. Talking separately about both AIDS and GM, using words like poofter and saying gay virus. If they are alive I hope the editors are ashamed but I doubt it

I digress. If its common to call someone gay a deviant and that's what the shouter was meaning I obviously hope he's done.

Twas the Elizabethans. The second variety, that is. 1967 in England, 1981 in Scotland, was when deviancy stopped being deviant.

[lapsedhibee]

What you on about who hurls it.

In the press, abuse is always hurled.

[lapsedhibee]

When I've driven in France, I've seen road signs with the word "Deviation" and an arrow. I would always follow them.

Imagine my disappointment......

:greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

In the press, abuse is always hurled.

To be fair I have hurled Hun on occasion

[500miles]

I've referred to guys as deviants for forward parking (thus reversing out - MADNESS)

I'm not sure we should be propagating the culture war by stretching the net of hate speech like this.

[Keith_M]

Like most people, I'd honestly never heard of the word 'deviant' used in this context before, and I think it's going to be difficult for a court to decide on whether the comment was actually homophobic.

'Deviant' is quite a wide ranging term to use and they'd have to prove it was used in a specific meaning/context, which won't be easy.

[wookie70]

Like most people, I'd honestly never heard of the word 'deviant' used in this context before, and I think it's going to be difficult for a court to decide on whether the comment was actually homophobic.

'Deviant' is quite a wide ranging term to use and they'd have to prove it was used in a specific meaning/context, which won't be easy.

I haven't heard the word used in that fashion for a long time but given the age of who used it they may have used it in that way. No idea how you prove that though unless there is further evidence.

[Pretty Boy]

This reminds me a bit of the case against the Hearts fans that attacked Neil Lennon.

The prosecution insisted the charge was 'assault aggravated by religious prejudice', the defendant offered to please guilty to assault if the latter part was dropped, the prosecution refused so it went to trial. The case was found not proven. It hinged on the prosecution arguing he had called Lennon a 'fenian *******' earlier in the game which proved the religiously aggravated element, the defendant claimed he called him a 'f*****g w****r'. Witness testimony was inconclusive. It was during one of those times when Scotland develops a conscience about sectarianism for a few weeks so it was a politically motivated decision to keep the religious prejudice element to the charge. Had that been dropped an assault conviction was a slam dunk, it was literally on film for the world to see. He was found guilty of multiple other charges based on the same footage.

If this case goes to trial then it's almost impossible to prove this was a homophobic slur based solely on the events of the day. There's a broad range of potential definitions for the word deviant and all the accused has to do is insist he was referring to almost anything other than Harvie's sexuality and there is reasonable doubt, it's ultimately his word against Harvie's interpretation. If the charges aren't reduced or dropped then I'd be stunned.

[lapsedhibee]

This reminds me a bit of the case against the Hearts fans that attacked Neil Lennon.

The prosecution insisted the charge was 'assault aggravated by religious prejudice', the defendant offered to please guilty to assault if the latter part was dropped, the prosecution refused so it went to trial. The case was found not proven. It hinged on the prosecution arguing he had called Lennon a 'fenian *******' earlier in the game which proved the religiously aggravated element, the defendant claimed he called him a 'f*****g w****r'. Witness testimony was inconclusive. It was during one of those times when Scotland develops a conscience about sectarianism for a few weeks so it was a politically motivated decision to keep the religious prejudice element to the charge. Had that been dropped an assault conviction was a slam dunk, it was literally on film for the world to see. He was found guilty of multiple other charges based on the same footage.

If this case goes to trial then it's almost impossible to prove this was a homophobic slur based solely on the events of the day. There's a broad range of potential definitions for the word deviant and all the accused has to do is insist he was referring to almost anything other than Harvie's sexuality and there is reasonable doubt, it's ultimately his word against Harvie's interpretation. If the charges aren't reduced or dropped then I'd be stunned.

If the defence is going to claim that there was no homophobic slur intended, wouldn't they have to specify in exactly what other way Harvie is deviant? :dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

If the defence is going to claim that there was no homophobic slur intended, wouldn't they have to specify in exactly what other way Harvie is deviant? :dunno:

No. Burden of proof is with the state.


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[lapsedhibee]

No. Burden of proof is with the state.


Indeed. Hard to see a jury hearing 'my client didn't mean it homophobically, he meant something completely different but we're not saying what' and being convinced though.

With the Lennon case different people heard different things, but if it's agreed that 'deviant' was the word used here I think the defence may struggle.

[Pretty Boy]

If the defence is going to claim that there was no homophobic slur intended, wouldn't they have to specify in exactly what other way Harvie is deviant? :dunno:

They might choose to specify because it helps their argument but they have no obligation to prove what he actually meant, they merely have to make the case that without access to the inside of the defendants head the prosecutor can't prove what he did mean.

[lapsedhibee]

They might choose to specify because it helps their argument but they have no obligation to prove what he actually meant, they merely have to make the case that without access to the inside of the defendants head the prosecutor can't prove what he did mean.

When's the trial and is it on the tellybox? :popcorn:

[greenginger]

If the defence is going to claim that there was no homophobic slur intended, wouldn't they have to specify in exactly what other way Harvie is deviant? :dunno:

The defendant could claim he believed green parties should be in favour of internationalism and joining with Nationalists was a deviation from true Green policies.

Bollocks, I know but a defendant can claim what he likes and it’s up to the prosecutor to prove its not what he was thinking.

[Stairway 2 7]

Indeed. Hard to see a jury hearing 'my client didn't mean it homophobically, he meant something completely different but we're not saying what' and being convinced though.

With the Lennon case different people heard different things, but if it's agreed that 'deviant' was the word used here I think the defence may struggle.

He could use Cambridge dictionary and pick one of a million excuses no
"used to describe a person or behaviour that is not usual and is generally considered to be unacceptable"

But in court he wouldn't have to he'd just say I wasn't being homophobic. Although it won't go to court it just has to go to PF because the nature of the claim I believe