Neil Lennon on Hibs in Football Scotland

[The Harp Awakes]

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread, but I thought it deserved one of it's own. Whether you would want him back or not, I think Lennon is spot on with his observations on Hibs. Also an interesting reflection on his time at the club in a football Scotland article.

https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/lee-johnson-gone-hibs-lose-27521274?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

'Neil Lennon knows all about what it's like to be in that pressurised hot seat at Easter Road, initially improving their fortunes before things turned sour and he left them lying eighth in the Premiership.

He's spoken about how he set about bringing up the mentality at the club when he took over and how he's not sure how things are behind the scenes now.

He said: "I think the players at the minute are inexperienced to play European football and then come again at the weekend. They've got to find that balance. Consistency is the key word for me at the minute, he's not getting it either in results or performances.

"There would be times I would be going nuts at them and they didn't get it. Drawing games and I would be really unhappy with them and they would be thinking 'this is a good result'. But ultimately it cost us finishing second or third.

"I think it's a good club but what is there reason to be at the minute? Is it to finish third behind Celtic and Rangers, get to a cup final, be the top team in Edinburgh, take points of Celtic and Rangers?

"Every season that should be their reason to be but I'm not sure if that's the mentality at the minute."

[Jones28]

It should be captioned with "Former Celtic Manager Neil Lennon".This is the identity thing that Mikey Stewart bangs on about endlessly.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Can’t argue with any of that at all.

[Alex Trager]

Can’t argue with any of that at all.

Except that he was the man in charge when we were getting all these draws and he’s still blaming the players.

There are mountains of folk sick fed up of LJ doing that right now.

[Heisenberg]

Except that he was the man in charge when we were getting all these draws and he’s still blaming the players.

There are mountains of folk sick fed up of LJ doing that right now.

Exactly. NL was horrendous for throwing the players under the bus, that’s if he even bothered turning up for the post game interviews when we hadn’t had a positive result. Don’t want him anywhere near the club again.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Except that he was the man in charge when we were getting all these draws and he’s still blaming the players.

There are mountains of folk sick fed up of LJ doing that right now.

Sorry, I was only really focusing on the bit about where we are now but I’ve realised I didn’t mention that and you’re not all mind readers :greengrin

You’re right about the draws.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Exactly. NL was horrendous for throwing the players under the bus, that’s if he even bothered turning up for the post game interviews when we hadn’t had a positive result. Don’t want him anywhere near the club again.

I don’t want him anywhere near the club again either. I do find it funny though that some of the noisiest JR supporters don’t want NL back either though when NL can pretty much point to all the pros for JR and more and match him or better him.

Got us into Europe ✔️
Made a decent fist of Europe when he got there ✔️
Record points total ✔️
Got us to Hampden ✔️
Built an incredible side, potentially the best to watch in my lifetime ✔️
Won a trophy ✔️
Good few derby victories ✔️
Multiple wins over the Old Firm ✔️

Then there’s the fact he’s had a career elsewhere that JR could only dream of. Both them got binned at Hibs after horror runs.

I do find it funny when people are adamant JR was the best thing since sliced bread but they absolutely wouldn’t want NL back.

[Winston Ingram]

Except that he was the man in charge when we were getting all these draws and he’s still blaming the players.

There are mountains of folk sick fed up of LJ doing that right now.

His tactics for the last 6 months in charge were awful. They were all his choice. IIRC, in the league we played 433 6 times and won 5. We played 532 12 times and won once.

[007]

Neil Lennon came in when the club was on a high after the cup win and was starting in the Championship with a good squad. Can't be many Hibs managers that have had such a good starting off point yet he still made heavy weather of getting us promoted. Yes, he had a good 1st season in the Premiership though that was after he'd had the benefit of working with the squad for a year. I wonder how well he'd have done if he'd joined in the Premiership after we'd been poor so sacked a manager.

[Heisenberg]

I don’t want him anywhere near the club again either. I do find it funny though that some of the noisiest JR supporters don’t want NL back either though when NL can pretty much point to all the pros for JR and more and match him or better him.

Got us into Europe ✔️
Made a decent fist of Europe when he got there ✔️
Record points total ✔️
Got us to Hampden ✔️
Built an incredible side, potentially the best to watch in my lifetime ✔️
Won a trophy ✔️
Good few derby victories ✔️
Multiple wins over the Old Firm ✔️

Then there’s the fact he’s had a career elsewhere that JR could only dream of. Both them got binned at Hibs after horror runs.

I do find it funny when people are adamant JR was the best thing since sliced bread but they absolutely wouldn’t want NL back.

I’d say Alan Stubbs pretty much built that team and I don’t think any Hibs manager walks into better circumstances than Lennon did when appointed. When asked to rebuild he made a mess of it and we went downhill.

[SickBoy32]

Would love Neil Lennon back at ER and think he's spot on with a lot of that. I can't escape the thoughts that Moneyball is still the clubs 'reason for being' currently. NL certainly had his ups and downs, but when it boils down to it - we sold SJM August 18' and Lennon was sacked within months due to the downward spiral. Pretty sure we were always going to struggle losing a talisman player, regardless of the manager. Lennon is levels above the current incumbent, NL or McInnes for me next

[Paulie Walnuts]

I’d say Alan Stubbs pretty much built that team and I don’t think any Hibs manager walks into better circumstances than Lennon did when appointed. When asked to rebuild he made a mess of it and we went downhill.

Stubbs built a lot of it but the 17/18 season also has Marciano, Ambrose, Allan, Kamberi, Maclaren and to a lesser extent, Brandon Barker who all starred in it and were all signed by Lennon.

Marciano, Ambrose and Allan are three of the best players I’ve seen at Hibs in their respective positions so I think it’s a bit unfair to say it was pretty much all Alan Stubbs doing.

If Stubbs built Lennons team then would it be fair to say Heckingbottom built JRs succesful team seeing as he left with him guys like Newell, Doidge, Allan, Hallberg who all played a big part in our succesful 20/21 season?

[007]

I don’t want him anywhere near the club again either. I do find it funny though that some of the noisiest JR supporters don’t want NL back either though when NL can pretty much point to all the pros for JR and more and match him or better him.

Got us into Europe ✔️
Made a decent fist of Europe when he got there ✔️
Record points total ✔️
Got us to Hampden ✔️
Built an incredible side, potentially the best to watch in my lifetime ✔️
Won a trophy ✔️
Good few derby victories ✔️
Multiple wins over the Old Firm ✔️

Then there’s the fact he’s had a career elsewhere that JR could only dream of. Both them got binned at Hibs after horror runs.

I do find it funny when people are adamant JR was the best thing since sliced bread but they absolutely wouldn’t want NL back.

We did okay in his 2nd crack at Europe, he lost his 1st tie in his 1st go at it and we then got knocked out of the League Cup 3-1 at home to Queen of the South a couple of weeks later.

Haven't checked but I wouldn't be surprised if he made more poor signings than good ones.

[Smartie]

Would love Neil Lennon back at ER and think he's spot on with a lot of that. I can't escape the thoughts that Moneyball is still the clubs 'reason for being' currently. NL certainly had his ups and downs, but when it boils down to it - we sold SJM August 18' and Lennon was sacked within months due to the downward spiral. Pretty sure we were always going to struggle losing a talisman player, regardless of the manager. Lennon is levels above the current incumbent, NL or McInnes for me next

I agree with your “moneyball” comment.

It looks to me like we’re primarily a player trading vehicle, with the football team and it’s performance an afterthought.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I agree with your “moneyball” comment.

It looks to me like we’re primarily a player trading vehicle, with the football team and it’s performance an afterthought.

:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

Funny he's slagging players for thinking a draw was a decent result when he was doing aeroplanes when we drew with The Rangers after squandering a 3 goal lead.

[Jones28]

I don’t want him anywhere near the club again either. I do find it funny though that some of the noisiest JR supporters don’t want NL back either though when NL can pretty much point to all the pros for JR and more and match him or better him.Got us into Europe ✔️ Made a decent fist of Europe when he got there ✔️ Record points total ✔️ Got us to Hampden ✔️ Built an incredible side, potentially the best to watch in my lifetime ✔️ Won a trophy ✔️ Good few derby victories ✔️ Multiple wins over the Old Firm ✔️ Then there’s the fact he’s had a career elsewhere that JR could only dream of. Both them got binned at Hibs after horror runs.I do find it funny when people are adamant JR was the best thing since sliced bread but they absolutely wouldn’t want NL back.I liked Jack Ross because he was a stable appointment who I like listening to and who fixed the ills brought to the club by Heckingbottom. The win against Motherwell really early on was such a breath of fresh air. I'd have him back over Neil Lennon because of the way Lennon left Hibs. He was very disrespectful, stopped doing press conferences and started sending Parker out to face the media, had us on a terrible run and once the mid-field (of whom he signed 1 in Scott Allan, and it could be argued that he wasn't really a Lennon signing but a Stubbs re-signing) was broken up we fell apart like a cheap suit.Having said that, I really enjoyed the second half of the first season back up, probably more than I've enjoyed any time at ER before and if I thought Lennon could bring that feeling back then I'd have him back in a shot. I just don't think he could do it.I'm not one for bringing back managers, they left for a reason but I would argue Jack Ross never really got the backing or the chance he deserved to turn things around with the January window.

[chrisski33]

Whether NL should get the Hibs job again or not, he is a better manager than what we have now!

[Heisenberg]

Stubbs built a lot of it but the 17/18 season also has Marciano, Ambrose, Allan, Kamberi, Maclaren and to a lesser extent, Brandon Barker who all starred in it and were all signed by Lennon.

Marciano, Ambrose and Allan are three of the best players I’ve seen at Hibs in their respective positions so I think it’s a bit unfair to say it was pretty much all Alan Stubbs doing.

If Stubbs built Lennons team then would it be fair to say Heckingbottom built JRs succesful team seeing as he left with him guys like Newell, Doidge, Allan, Hallberg who all played a big part in our succesful 20/21 season?

I’ll not given him much credit for Scott Allan to be fair, initially signed by Alan Stubbs. The core of that team was all Alan Stubbs. Marciano and Ambrose of course were brilliant signings and he did well to get them. He was a complete shambles when he lost that midfield though, built a terrible side and couldn’t get a tune out of them no matter how much he screamed and shouted.

I’m not really sure why you are talking about Jack Ross. I don’t want him back either. The two aren’t anywhere near comparable though, let’s not be silly. Stubbs left Lennon with an all timer of a Hibs team to build from. Ross came into a team with a goalless Doidge and Joe Newell.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I liked Jack Ross because he was a stable appointment who I like listening to and who fixed the ills brought to the club by Heckingbottom. The win against Motherwell really early on was such a breath of fresh air. I'd have him back over Neil Lennon because of the way Lennon left Hibs. He was very disrespectful, stopped doing press conferences and started sending Parker out to face the media, had us on a terrible run and once the mid-field (of whom he signed 1 in Scott Allan, and it could be argued that he wasn't really a Lennon signing but a Stubbs re-signing) was broken up we fell apart like a cheap suit.Having said that, I really enjoyed the second half of the first season back up, probably more than I've enjoyed any time at ER before and if I thought Lennon could bring that feeling back then I'd have him back in a shot. I just don't think he could do it.I'm not one for bringing back managers, they left for a reason but I would argue Jack Ross never really got the backing or the chance he deserved to turn things around with the January window.

Did Lennon get the backing he should have got? We had just come off getting a record points total, sold McGinn for a very hefty fee and spent a nominal fee on Mallan, Horgan and Kamberi. The rest of our signings were either signing guys who never even had clubs like Nelom and Mavrias or loans.

I wouldn’t disagree JR could have been backed better. Lennon could easily argue the exact same though for pretty much the exact same reasons.

[Unseen work]

I don’t want him anywhere near the club again either. I do find it funny though that some of the noisiest JR supporters don’t want NL back either though when NL can pretty much point to all the pros for JR and more and match him or better him.

Got us into Europe ✔️
Made a decent fist of Europe when he got there ✔️
Record points total ✔️
Got us to Hampden ✔️
Built an incredible side, potentially the best to watch in my lifetime ✔️
Won a trophy ✔️
Good few derby victories ✔️
Multiple wins over the Old Firm ✔️

Then there’s the fact he’s had a career elsewhere that JR could only dream of. Both them got binned at Hibs after horror runs.

I do find it funny when people are adamant JR was the best thing since sliced bread but they absolutely wouldn’t want NL back.

Even with Lennon having 1 season in the championship Jack Ross still has a better win % than him.

You could make just as good an argument for Ross and without the circus Lennon brought.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Even with Lennon having 1 season in the championship Jack Ross still has a better win % than him.

You could make just as good an argument for Ross and without the circus Lennon brought.

Win % are a fairly pointless comparison. It only considers 1 of 3 possible results.

NL had a significantly higher PPG (albeit some in the Championship), a measure that considers all results combined.

I’m not sure you can make just as good an argument for Ross. You can make one that’s quite close, but NL has him beat in most measures. He won a trophy, he done better in Europe, he had a team that played more attractive football, he gained more points and he has had an infinitely more succesfull career elsewhere.

[Northernhibee]

I’d say Alan Stubbs pretty much built that team and I don’t think any Hibs manager walks into better circumstances than Lennon did when appointed. When asked to rebuild he made a mess of it and we went downhill.
He did the same at Celtic. Took over BR’s team and within a year and a half they gifted Sevco their only Premiership title.

He’d be a disaster taking over this team.

[Unseen work]

Win % are a fairly pointless comparison. It only considers 1 of 3 possible results.

NL had a significantly higher PPG (albeit some in the Championship), a measure that considers all results combined.

True, but I don’t think we can count the championship if in a comparison with Ross. I wouldn’t say it’s pointless though,

That would elevate his stats substantially

[Libby Hibby]

Neil Lennon…some boy.

I think he fancies the Hibs job and we’d be daft not to let it happen.

[Unseen work]

Win % are a fairly pointless comparison. It only considers 1 of 3 possible results.

NL had a significantly higher PPG (albeit some in the Championship), a measure that considers all results combined.

I’m not sure you can make just as good an argument for Ross. You can make one that’s quite close, but NL has him beat in most measures. He won a trophy, he done better in Europe, he had a team that played more attractive football, he gained more points and he has had an infinitely more succesfull career elsewhere.

Lennons career outwith Hibs make the slightest difference to me, I just judge people on what they done at Hibs.

Lennon won the championship, something Ross never had the opportunity to do with Hibs. He did win it with St Mirren though on a smaller budget if you want to include previous clubs.

Ross first 3rd place finish in 16 years

Highest win % of Hibs managers in god knows how many years

Got us in Europe

Got to Hampden consistently

Europe? I can’t remember us being particularly brilliant in Europe, not enough to mark it down as a positive for Lennon. Couple of good results yeah but nothing to elevate him.

I’d say the majority of points you’ve said for Lennon, you can also say for Ross.

You also need to factor in the squads both inherited.

[DH1875]

I liked Lennon as manager but his time has gone. Would have been interesting to see what would happened if he had got the financial backing Lee has got but then, could say that about most of our previous managers.

Think he has a point regarding the mentality around the club too. Always been like that though.

[DH1875]

I liked Lennon as manager but his time has gone. Would have been interesting to see what would happened if he had got the financial backing Lee has got but then, could say that about most of our previous managers.

Think he has a point regarding the mentality around the club too. Always been like that though.

For what it's worth, also think we binned Ross to soon too. But again, his time has come and gone.

[hibeerealist]

Even with Lennon having 1 season in the championship Jack Ross still has a better win % than him.You could make just as good an argument for Ross and without the circus Lennon brought.Jack Ross sent me to sleep listening to him, probably had the same effect on his players! Jack got lucky that season we ended third for a number of reasons that have been well covered here. Nice guy, ambitious, driven manager eh naw. Just a job much like he has now at the Geordies, pays the bills.Along the way he was murder at Dundee Utd.Would not want him back.The rat, Kamberi, was very much in the "room" when Lennon's time was coming to an end. I watched the Tornados and Hibs under Lennon were the last time I really looked forward to going to the games. LJ is nowhere near the manager Lennon was (is?).

[Unseen work]

Jack Ross sent me to sleep listening to him, probably had the same effect on his players! Jack got lucky that season we ended third for a number of reasons that have been well covered here. Nice guy, ambitious, driven manager eh naw. Just a job much like he has now at the Geordies, pays the bills.Along the way he was murder at Dundee Utd.Would not want him back.The rat, Kamberi, was very much in the "room" when Lennon's time was coming to an end. I watched the Tornados and Hibs under Lennon were the last time I really looked forward to going to the games. LJ is nowhere near the manager Lennon was (is?).


In what way was Ross lucky to finish third?

Don’t say “X weren’t good that season” as you could say that for every accomplishment every team has ever had

[heretoday]

Lenny! Come back to Easter Road!

[Paulie Walnuts]

True, but I don’t think we can count the championship if in a comparison with Ross. I wouldn’t say it’s pointless though,

That would elevate his stats substantially

In the Scottish Premiership as Hibs manager:

Neil Lennon: 96 points in 60 games = 1.6ppg
Jack Ross: 107 points in 72 games = 1.48ppg.

About 5 points of a difference over the course of a season. Not an insignificant amount.

[Bridge hibs]

Lenny, how ****ing desperate are we to have him back in the door, typical though, always looking backwards and pretty much the same with former players, get Omeonga back, get McGeough back, move on for gawds sake and let it go 🤣

[Paulie Walnuts]

In what way was Ross lucky to finish third?

Don’t say “X weren’t good that season” as you could say that for every accomplishment every team has ever had

I would agree with that. I’m not a fan of JR but you’ll never find me trotting out the ‘aye but hearts weren’t in the league’ excuse.

The only thing I would say though is that whilst I wouldn’t say it shows JR was lucky, I do think it would be fair to say NL was unlucky to finish 4th. His points total was a good bit better than JRs when he finished third but still only got us 4th place. On the face of it, it was still 4th place, but it was a bawhair away from 2nd.

[Northernhibee]

He can talk about mentality of the club, but when we went to Tynie and he made an arse of the team selection he can take a good long look at himself for that comment too (or indeed that horrendous defensive line up against Killie).

[Pretty Boy]

There was a bit of an edge to Hibs when Lennon was in charge. Other teams really seemed to hate us during that spell and I don't just mean the obvious two. We had some great times and not all in that 4 month spell either. The win in Brondby even though we lost the tie, the 0-0 at Tynecastle where we basically had a party for 90+ minutes then tucked them away in the replay in a manner that has happened about 4 times in my lifetime, beating Rangers 3-2 at Ibrox, coming back from 2 down to draw with Celtic at ER, beating Rangers 2-1 at Ibrox, beating Killie 5-3 in a great game of football between 2 very good sides, beating Celtic at ER with Danny Swanson playing like Messi. Even in the season when it all went wrong we had some great times; beating Motherwell and Dundee 3-0 and Hamilton 6-0, beating Celtic 2-0 and a 1-1 at Ibrox with an almost last minute equaliser.

I don't want Lennon back but I think there is something in what he says about Hibs lacking a real purpose at the moment. I think most teams will be quite looking forward to a crack at us at the moment and we are back to being one of the bigger teams that other fans laugh at rather than hate.

[JammyDoidger]

Ben kensells pals were up for a game last season, was speaking to them when I was in pioneers, they were asking questions about Hibs, about the manager etc, I made it clear back then the signings and the signing policy weren't up to scratch, said I'd love Neil Lennon back, he had standards and was a winner, Johnsons a bum, hopefully the message has been passed on, Mon Ben make it happen, get this wee man out!

[DH1875]

Also looks like he may have had a point regarding Flo. Wonder what would have happened if the club backed him instead of our star striker.

[J-C]

Ross got 3rd place with no Hearts, a poor Aberdeen and no fans, regular Hampden appearances that he bottled it each time.

Now I'm not advocating Lennon to return but he states he was unhappy at getting draws, while the players were happy with them, that's the winning mentality thing people go on about. It's not so much winning all the time but not accepting mediocrity either. It's been said before we as a club are soft with Lennon calling us a boy band club, we'll we've seen this over the past 3-4 years.

[Unseen work]

Ross got 3rd place with no Hearts, a poor Aberdeen and no fans, regular Hampden appearances that he bottled it each time.

Now I'm not advocating Lennon to return but he states he was unhappy at getting draws, while the players were happy with them, that's the winning mentality thing people go on about. It's not so much winning all the time but not accepting mediocrity either. It's been said before we as a club are soft with Lennon calling us a boy band club, we'll we've seen this over the past 3-4 years.

Most managers will come out and say they wanted the win and not a draw, I’ve heard Johnson come away with it plenty.

Being able to do something about it is another thing.

The praise Lennon gets on here for saying he wanted to win games etc baffles me at times

[Frazerbob]

Seen a few mentions of Lennon winning a trophy. Not sure I’d count winning the Championship as ‘winning a trophy’. We’re not Dunfermline.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Seen a few mentions of Lennon winning a trophy. Not sure I’d count winning the Championship as ‘winning a trophy’. We’re not Dunfermline.

We’re also not the Old Firm. We’ve won 5 trophies in my lifetime, 3 in my living memory. It’s not one I’m going to sit and celebrate all that much, but it’s a trophy.

[J-C]

Most managers will come out and say they wanted the win and not a draw, I’ve heard Johnson come away with it plenty.

Being able to do something about it is another thing.

The praise Lennon gets on here for saying he wanted to win games etc baffles me at times

You're missing the point, he said the players were happy with the draw and he wasn't, this is the soft underbelly of Hibs, we need to be more mentally stronger and ruthless, change deaws to wins, don't accept mediocrity.

[Partyraiser]

I take it the people calling for Lennon to come back have banished the latter part of his reign from memory. That line up and performance at Killie when the lights kept going out still haunts me

[Bridge hibs]

You're missing the point, he said the players were happy with the draw and he wasn't, this is the soft underbelly of Hibs, we need to be more mentally stronger and ruthless, change deaws to wins, don't accept mediocrity.Thats just his side of the story though, have any players come out and said the same ? Managers are known for talking bollox at times too, just look at the grief LJ gets when he says something, he gets slated from all angles

[Alex Trager]

You're missing the point, he said the players were happy with the draw and he wasn't, this is the soft underbelly of Hibs, we need to be more mentally stronger and ruthless, change deaws to wins, don't accept mediocrity.

And yet he was doing an aeroplane celebration at the end of a game with rangers that we got a draw in, despite being 3-0 up.

He also oversaw a great deal of draws.

I don’t buy this ‘he’s got a winning mentality’ crap.

This guy was in charge. It was his job to get rid of any soft underbelly that he may have perceived was there.

Instead he’s celebrating draws and racking up a great deal of them in the championship.

[Northernhibee]

I take it the people calling for Lennon to come back have banished the latter part of his reign from memory. That line up and performance at Killie when the lights kept going out still haunts meThe things that LJ is ripped to shreds for is also the sort of things that Neil Lennon was guilty of. I remember patches of bad form in the Championship (one particularly terrible 1-1 draw at ER with Ayr springs to mind, when Cummings was benched for some reason and Keatings started, I think as lone striker), and if you watch the DVD back of that season you'll find an awful lot of draws with plenty of teams that we should be beating.Add to that some pretty terrible recruitment (with the odd gem), being front and centre when we win and plenty of blame elsewhere when we lose, and some team selection bingo (we didn't need to see Slivka at right back once, let alone twice) and I think that if he were to return without the feel good of a cup win and having one of the best Hibs squads in modern times to take over people would tire of it very, very quickly this time around.

[DH1875]

I bet you Lennon knows where yo get his hands on a lion though 🤣.

[sean]

Be interesting to see Neil with the funds available to LJ and what he would do with it. The club has also changed hands and we are told there’s far more ambition now.

Not advocating for his return but he’s a high profile name and whether we like it or not had success at a level greater than Hibs, he also gave us a very exciting season.

[Unseen work]

You're missing the point, he said the players were happy with the draw and he wasn't, this is the soft underbelly of Hibs, we need to be more mentally stronger and ruthless, change deaws to wins, don't accept mediocrity.

It’s all nonsense though isn’t it?

Especially without content of what game it was, how it unfolded etc.

There are undoubtedly games where a draw is a good result even though you want to win.

We’re Hibs, we would have had the 4th/5th biggest budget in the league, of course we won’t win every game.

Did he never reflect why we never won the game? Was he at fault tactically, poor recruitment, poor preparation? Or just always the player’s mentality.

Far too many variables and just a bit of a nothing statement

[I'm Spartacus]

Not one mention of the argument that ended it all, or the homophobic slur aimed at Dempster, but yeah, the Celtic standards you talk about.I think he's a decent manager, and the absolute circus he creates isn't what we need.

[flash]

Ben kensells pals were up for a game last season, was speaking to them when I was in pioneers, they were asking questions about Hibs, about the manager etc, I made it clear back then the signings and the signing policy weren't up to scratch, said I'd love Neil Lennon back, he had standards and was a winner, Johnsons a bum, hopefully the message has been passed on, Mon Ben make it happen, get this wee man out!

Classy.

[Since452]

Lennon has a cheek to come out with that. He oversaw 14 draws in the Championship including ones at home to the likes of Dumbarton, Ayr and Morton. Not one or two draws against honking opposition, fourteen.

[JimBHibees]

Seen a few mentions of Lennon winning a trophy. Not sure I’d count winning the Championship as ‘winning a trophy’. We’re not Dunfermline.

Agree with that was trying to think of which trophy it was referring to.

[007]

Seen a few mentions of Lennon winning a trophy. Not sure I’d count winning the Championship as ‘winning a trophy’. We’re not Dunfermline.

Yeah, not exactly a sparkling performance in regards to trophies in his 1st season.

Knocked out of League Cup at our 1st stage 3-1 at home to QoS.

Knocked out at our 2nd stage of Challenge Cup 2-1 at home to St Mirren.

Stumbled over the line to win the Championship trophy.

Knocked out of Europa League at our 1st stage (okay, we were unlucky v Brondby).

Respectable defence of Scottish Cup, lost in semi v Aberdeen (beat Hearts en route).

[Paulie Walnuts]

Yeah, not exactly a sparkling performance in regards to trophies in his 1st season.

Knocked out of League Cup at our 1st stage 3-1 at home to QoS.

Knocked out at our 2nd stage of Challenge Cup 2-1 at home to St Mirren.

Stumbled over the line to win the Championship trophy.

Knocked out of Europa League at our 1st stage (okay, we were unlucky v Brondby).

Respectable defence of Scottish Cup, lost in semi v Aberdeen (beat Hearts en route).

We won the Championship by 11 points and with 3 games to spare. We were top of the league without being overtaken for the last half of the season. I wish we could stumble our way to success by such margins now.

[Northernhibee]

We won the Championship by 11 points and with 3 games to spare. I wish we could stumble our way to success by such margins now.

Fourteen draws. One point more than Stubbs who had Hearts and Rangers in the league.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Fourteen draws. One point more than Stubbs who had Hearts and Rangers in the league.

Yup. To suggest we stumbled across the line though is absolute nonsense. We absolutely romped the league being top without being overtaken for the second half of the season and winning it by 11 points with 3 games to spare.

[Broken Gnome]

I don't doubt that he's more than capable of taking this team and improving it short-term.

When it comes to the inevitable need to rebuild and replace, I can't see that ends well, or that he'd be remotely keen to stick around with any great enthusiasm when we ultimately don't recruit the standard of player he'd want.

History suggests that year two we'd be plodding along in fight for 3rd-6th. I'm not being defeatist and saying that's fine and he's wrong in demanding better, I just don't think he's remotely the guy to deal with the reality of things.

[Northernhibee]

Yup. To suggest we stumbled across the line though is absolute nonsense. We absolutely romped the league being top without being overtaken for the second half of the season and winning it by 11 points with 3 games to spare.

If Dundee United could have found consistent form then we’d have been in trouble. We won a one horse race that season.

[Pretty Boy]

Lennon has a cheek to come out with that. He oversaw 14 draws in the Championship including ones at home to the likes of Dumbarton, Ayr and Morton. Not one or two draws against honking opposition, fourteen.

It's funny because there were plenty people painting those draws as a positive at the time. 'Those are the types of games we would have lost last season' was a well worn phrase.

There's arguably a bit of merit in that; we lost 8 and drew 7 in 15/16. We only lost 3 in 16/17 and only lost once more after losing at Tannadice on 2nd December. At the business end of the season we got the job done.

I agree it's a bit rich for Lennon to be bemoaning draws when he celebrated at least one and managed us to a hell of a lot more but plenty people were happy with the draws at the time, that season was all about getting up in whatever way. I'm still more angry at him for ****ing himself at Tynecastle and dropping MacLaren when we had been on a run of 12 games unbeaten, including wins over Hearts, Rangers, Aberdeen and Celtic. That was weak from him and he threw the players under the bus in spectacular fashion that night (again though plenty were hailing him for that at the time).

[Paulie Walnuts]

If Dundee United could have found consistent form then we’d have been in trouble. We won a one horse race that season.

They didn’t though.

The same argument can be made to downplay any season.

Jack Ross finished third? Aye but not with all that exciting a total.

LJ finished 5th? Aye but if St J had been slightly better it would have been 7th.

Mowbray finished 3rd? But if Aberdeen had shown more consistency it would have been 4th etc.

[ScottB]

Lennon is done, bottled 10 in a row and has done what since?

He had his great successes as a manager of course. I’d argue he probably unperformed for the most part in his time with us. The Championship campaign was a slog even with Rangers and Hearts gone, he had a quality of player we’d probably still only dream of getting, then when the quest for a good finish started to unravel he lost it, never got it back before things finally unravelled completely months later.

No danger should he ever be near the club again though, given the circumstances around his departure.

[I'm Spartacus]

We won the Championship by 11 points and with 3 games to spare. We were top of the league without being overtaken for the last half of the season. I wish we could stumble our way to success by such margins now.11 points with 3 games to spare? Look at the table and the teams we were up against. I'd be counting that as a negative in relation to NL. Hearts won it 2 season before by 21 points and 7 games to spare with us and Rangers in the league. Sevco then won it by 11 points, which is an even bigger scandal on their part, but then you take into account Kenny McDowall and Stuart McCall as managers for 3 months each (Sevco have actually had 11 managers in 10 years).

[The Modfather]

Be interesting to see Neil with the funds available to LJ and what he would do with it. The club has also changed hands and we are told there’s far more ambition now.

Not advocating for his return but he’s a high profile name and whether we like it or not had success at a level greater than Hibs, he also gave us a very exciting season.

I suspect he would leave a similar, expensive, mess to the one he left at Celtc where he managed to finish second in a one horse race. Despite vastly outspending Rangers, all while going for 10 in a row.

[Hibbyradge]

Yup. To suggest we stumbled across the line though is absolute nonsense. We absolutely romped the league being top without being overtaken for the second half of the season and winning it by 11 points with 3 games to spare.

I think even Maloney would have managed that without hertz or huns in the league.

We had some excellent performances under Lennon, no doubt about that, but it wasn't all great, and the end of his time here was awful.

While I can understand why people might want him back in the hope that we can recreate the good times, I think he's too much of a loose canon.

The poor results we were getting plus the fact that he was responsible for Celtic failing to win their record 10th title when they should have been streets ahead of Slippy's Huns, suggests to me that he's good at getting a positive initial reaction, but he can't sustain it. He was also sacked after 7 months in Cyprus.

He also comes with a massive amount of baggage and I'm not sure that would be at all good for Hibs.

[Paulie Walnuts]

11 points with 3 games to spare? Look at the table and the teams we were up against. I'd be counting that as a negative in relation to NL. Hearts won it 2 season before by 21 points and 7 games to spare with us and Rangers in the league. Sevco then won it by 11 points, which is an even bigger scandal on their part, but then you take into account Kenny McDowall and Stuart McCall as managers for 3 months each (Sevco have actually had 11 managers in 10 years).

What did you expect us to win it by? Not many leagues are won by double figures.

[Hibernian Verse]

You're missing the point, he said the players were happy with the draw and he wasn't, this is the soft underbelly of Hibs, we need to be more mentally stronger and ruthless, change deaws to wins, don't accept mediocrity.

Or alternatively, he's throwing the players he had at the time under the bus saying it was their fault. Because it's Lennon it's deemed acceptable "cos he's a winner ken", but LJ suggests he wants more from his players and all hell breaks loose on here.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think even Maloney would have managed that without hertz or huns in the league.

We had some excellent performances under Lennon, no doubt about that, but it wasn't all great, and the end of his time here was awful.

While I can understand why people might want him back in the hope that we can recreate the good times, I think he's too much of a loose canon.

The poor results we were getting plus the fact that he was responsible for Celtic failing to win their record 10th title when they should have been streets ahead of Slippy's Huns, suggests to me that he's good at getting a positive initial reaction, but he can't sustain it. He was also sacked after 7 months in Cyprus.

He also comes with a massive amount of baggage and I'm not sure that would be at all good for Hibs.

I don’t massively disagree with that. As I said, I don’t want him back under any circumstances.

As I said though, I mainly just find it interesting that people are so adamant they want JR back/shouldn’t have been sacked but are absolutely against NL coming back when NL had a better PPG in the top tier, got us to hampden, qualified for Europe etc which is always the excuses for why it was a joke getting rid of JR. JR also has the Lennon aspect of being a spectacular failure after leaving us.

For the record, I wouldn’t go near either of them.

[Northernhibee]

What did you expect us to win it by? Not many leagues are won by double figures.

I’m not bothered about the margin of victory but how we did it.

A one point improvement in a notably easier league isn’t very impressive.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I’m not bothered about the margin of victory but how we did it.

A one point improvement in a notably easier league isn’t very impressive.

Fair enough.

Imo winning a league at a canter by 11 points and being top without anyone overtaking us for half the season is a job well done. If others want to turn their nose up at that then that’s for them to decide.

[flash]

Fair enough.

Imo winning a league at a canter by 11 points and being top without anyone overtaking us for half the season is a job well done. If others want to turn their nose up at that then that’s for them to decide.

I would expect us to have won that league comfortably with a supporter managing the team.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I would expect us to have won that league comfortably with a supporter managing the team.

I’m sure Rangers fans would have said the same in 14/15 with a budget that dwarfed everyone else in the league. Instead they finished 24 points behind the leaders and also 3 points behind us.

[flash]

I’m sure Rangers fans would have said the same in 14/15 with a budget that dwarfed everyone else in the league. Instead they finished 24 points behind the leaders and also 3 points behind us.

Aye they might have been better having a supporter in charge that year!

[Doh Rae Me]

I'd have him back in a second.
Has anyone else generated the interest to half the South stand for the rangers to visit since NL?
It's an easy choice for me to make as a walk up, LJ in charge, im going no where near ER.
NL in charge, all aboard the rollercoaster.

[Since90+2]

I'd 100% take McInnes over Lennon.

[flash]

I'd have him back in a second.
Has anyone else generated the interest to half the South stand for the rangers to visit since NL?
It's an easy choice for me to make as a walk up, LJ in charge, im going no where near ER.
NL in charge, all aboard the rollercoaster.

You won't be getting a ticket for the Villa tie?

[Northernhibee]

I'd 100% take McInnes over Lennon.

Me too. Knows how to build a squad and find consistency. It’s what we need.

[Smartie]

Lennon has a cheek to come out with that. He oversaw 14 draws in the Championship including ones at home to the likes of Dumbarton, Ayr and Morton. Not one or two draws against honking opposition, fourteen.

In fairness though - maybe he was doing his nut at those draws, whilst others were content that they were a point closer to promotion?

A year later he got more points over half a season that the champions, so when the going was good and he had good players, he certainly managed to get the best out of them.

I was as frustrated as anyone else towards the end of his reign.

[SHODAN]

Aye Neil, we know. You'd just tell the players they were ****ing ***** until they weren't or until you were sacked.

[The Harp Awakes]

I'd have him back in a second.
Has anyone else generated the interest to half the South stand for the rangers to visit since NL?
It's an easy choice for me to make as a walk up, LJ in charge, im going no where near ER.
NL in charge, all aboard the rollercoaster.

I think that's where I'm at as well. Lennon made mistakes in his time with us for sure, but for me his tenure was the last time I genuinely felt excited going to games at Easter Road. There were highs and lows but it was never dull. I loved how he set his teams up against Rangers and Celtic in particular and refused to be intimidated by them.

We can all speculate on why things went wrong in the end and in particular over the Kamberi incident. From Lennon's perspective, his view is that the club didn't match his ambitions and I find that totally believeable.

Since he left, Hibs players have become far too comfortable with their Manager IMO. This is particularly the case under Johnson, where players only seem to raise their game when they can be bothered.

The fact that our longest serving player has said Lennon is the best Manager he has worked under is significant.

[superfurryhibby]

I'd have him back in a second.
Has anyone else generated the interest to half the South stand for the rangers to visit since NL?
It's an easy choice for me to make as a walk up, LJ in charge, im going no where near ER.
NL in charge, all aboard the rollercoaster.

Bizarre.

[DH1875]

Like I said earlier, I liked him. He did however set us up to play for a draw a tynecastle and played a very questionable team that night.

[Heisenberg]

Like I said earlier, I liked him. He did however set us up to play for a draw a tynecastle and played a very questionable team that night.

Then went into hiding for days.

[Jones28]

Did Lennon get the backing he should have got? We had just come off getting a record points total, sold McGinn for a very hefty fee and spent a nominal fee on Mallan, Horgan and Kamberi. The rest of our signings were either signing guys who never even had clubs like Nelom and Mavrias or loans.I wouldn’t disagree JR could have been backed better. Lennon could easily argue the exact same though for pretty much the exact same reasons.I don't know to be honest. I think Lennon made some expensive signings, I don't think Holt, Commons or Ambrose would have been cheap. My feeling on it is that Lennon was backed under the previous regime, so nothing like as much as Johnson has been backed. Ross was poorly backed badly by the standards of the new regime. JR in my opinion was left up **** creek by the board after they didn't sell Doig to give him extra funds.

[Rumble de Thump]

It's easy to have a winning mentality when you're managing the wealthiest football club in a league. Even then, Lennon managed to discover a losing mentality when he gifted Sevco the title.

[wookie70]

Yup. To suggest we stumbled across the line though is absolute nonsense. We absolutely romped the league being top without being overtaken for the second half of the season and winning it by 11 points with 3 games to spare.It never felt like that until the last stages of that campaign. Dundee Utd blew it big style and I would say Stubbs points totals are more impressive than Lennon's in the Championship given the opposition he had to face. Lennon seems to be a decent manager when he has excellent players. Who isn't. As soon as he has the responsibility for anything more than shouting on the side lines he falls to pieces. He doesn't do tactics and the vast majority of his signings were duds or he managed to fall out with them and go in the huff. He played for a draw at Tiny when second was a possibility and didn't even understand teh maths when interviewed post game. I don't think he is a very good manager and he would be a disaster with this squad.

[Paulie Walnuts]

It never felt like that until the last stages of that campaign. Dundee Utd blew it big style and I would say Stubbs points totals are more impressive than Lennon's in the Championship given the opposition he had to face. Lennon seems to be a decent manager when he has excellent players. Who isn't. As soon as he has the responsibility for anything more than shouting on the side lines he falls to pieces. He doesn't do tactics and the vast majority of his signings were duds or he managed to fall out with them and go in the huff. He played for a draw at Tiny when second was a possibility and didn't even understand teh maths when interviewed post game. I don't think he is a very good manager and he would be a disaster with this squad.

I agree the totals Stubbs gained were more impressive.

Whilst there was some dud signings there was also some that pretty much haven’t been replicated since. Marciano, Ambrose and Allan, probably the best goalkeeper, one of the best centre half’s and one of the best midfielders we’ve had in my lifetime. Throw in Kamberi and Maclaren who first time he signed them were ridiculously good and I think it’s a bit harsh to suggest he was that bad in the transfer market.

[B.H.F.C]

Like I said earlier, I liked him. He did however set us up to play for a draw a tynecastle and played a very questionable team that night.

I never thought he set us up for a draw that might. It was an attacking team. But it was mental changing the shape from one that had us playing so well.

[WhileTheChief..]

That’s the first step in coming back to us!

No reason for him ti be discussing us otherwise. Someone’s been in touch :)

[JamesHFC]

Lennon is done, bottled 10 in a row and has done what since?

He had his great successes as a manager of course. I’d argue he probably unperformed for the most part in his time with us. The Championship campaign was a slog even with Rangers and Hearts gone, he had a quality of player we’d probably still only dream of getting, then when the quest for a good finish started to unravel he lost it, never got it back before things finally unravelled completely months later.

No danger should he ever be near the club again though, given the circumstances around his departure.

He's won another trophy since leaving Celtic in all fairness.

[Betty Boop]

He couldn't wait to get away from our club,worked his ticket big time.

[California-Hibs]

Absolutely loved us under Lennon. Would have him back in a heartbeat!

[superfurryhibby]

The idea of Lennon back is ridic. He failed the test at Hibs when a more astute manager might have taken a team with those playing resources to a trophy (at least a final) and better than fourth place.

[HarpOnHibee]

The idea of Lennon back is ridic. He failed the test at Hibs when a more astute manager might have taken a team with those playing resources to a trophy (at least a final) and better than fourth place.It's all ifs, buts and maybes. But is it not generally the case that our players seem to under-perform regardless of who the management team are? We'll have the odd game where the opposition are blown away by the natural quality of our players, but then it's back to "wth are they even doing out there on the pitch?".

[superfurryhibby]

It's all ifs, buts and maybes. But is it not generally the case that our players seem to under-perform regardless of who the management team are? We'll have the odd game where the opposition are blown away by the natural quality of our players, but then it's back to "wth are they even doing out there on the pitch?".

Often yes, I think a key part of that has been that we have had sides that are good, but lacking strength in depth. For most of my time supporting Hibs (since 1970-71), we've been under resourced (especially by comparison to our Gorgie pals). Maybe the first six years-seven years under Tom Hart's ownership was different, but throughout the 80's, 90's and in fact pretty much ever since, I think Hibs have spent less on players. I suppose the McLeish years might be the exception.

That said, I thought that in the run in to that second season, there was an opportunity to finish better. We should have done better v Hearts. As for the Hun game, at 3-0 we could have been much smarter and sat back and picked them off, to go on to loss five goals in succession was ridiculous. It annoyed the **** out of me at the time.

I found Lennon interesting but he royally messed up at HIbs. By the time he left the club was in turmoil, he'd lost the plot completely. Don't want him back at Hibs.

[Key West]

Why don't we let the present manager get on with his job and judge his performance at the end of the season.
Lennon couldn't wait to get out of the door to return to his beloved Celtic.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Why don't we let the present manager get on with his job and judge his performance at the end of the season.
Lennon couldn't wait to get out of the door to return to his beloved Celtic.

Absolutely no chance should we judging him at the end of the season.

[WhileTheChief..]

Why don't we let the present manager get on with his job and judge his performance at the end of the season. Lennon couldn't wait to get out of the door to return to his beloved Celtic.How did he manage to get Leicester City to appoint Rodgers so that their was a vacancy at Celtic?!Why did Garry Parker leave at the same time only to be without a club for 6 months?It doesn't make sense that they worked their ticket and is simply a made up tale.LD mutually consented both of them because of the argument with Kamberi. Simple as that.

[southern hibby]

I’m not saying Lennon should get the gig, but surely it would be easier now reference recruitment with a DOF in place getting players in too.

This would help, would it not?

But if you want commitment from the players at least Lennon can get them motivated for a game.

GGTTH

[Hibbyradge]

How did he manage to get Leicester City to appoint Rodgers so that their was a vacancy at Celtic?!Why did Garry Parker leave at the same time only to be without a club for 6 months?It doesn't make sense that they worked their ticket and is simply a made up tale.LD mutually consented both of them because of the argument with Kamberi. Simple as that.

The exact reason for him leaving Hibs isn't clear, but unless he's great at 4D chess, as well as possessing the ability to accurately predict the future, it's not possible that he engineered a move away.

Wasn't it the case that he'd all but secured a job in Australia but was stopped from going at the last minute when Celtic called to offer him the job there temporarily?

I don't think we should bring him back, but that's not the reason why.

[Is It On....]

Would love Neil Lennon back at ER and think he's spot on with a lot of that. I can't escape the thoughts that Moneyball is still the clubs 'reason for being' currently. NL certainly had his ups and downs, but when it boils down to it - we sold SJM August 18' and Lennon was sacked within months due to the downward spiral. Pretty sure we were always going to struggle losing a talisman player, regardless of the manager. Lennon is levels above the current incumbent, NL or McInnes for me next

"Moneyball" is the concept of using data to make better decisions when recruiting players. The fact we have a problem with recruitment is that our process isn't working, and not, in my opinion, the concept of using data. Brighton and Brentford are the key proponents of it in England because they needed to be AND their owners were following the same process that made them £billionaires in the first place. The fact that we have made nothing of the link we supposedly have with Brighton says more Hibs than it does about Brighton.

[Key West]

Absolutely no chance should we judging him at the end of the season.

You know what it is just an opinion but I'm tired of this revolving door of Hibs managers all of whom are being judged by folk who probably haven't kicked a ball or managed at any level, anyhow it's nothing new every man and his dog are football experts these days, I wish I had been as s**** as some of these players and managers that are getting it in the neck.I'll leave it at that.😁

[Since452]

Although there were a lot of people dead against Lennon joining Hibs he was still a huge name in Scottish football and carried a bit of an aura about him. It did elevate us a wee bit and some of the ride was quite fun. The dynamic has completely changed now though. He's seen a bit of a comedy figure for handing Rangers their first title and blowing 10IAR. Aberdeen fans were raging when he appeared on their potential shortlist after Goodwin was punted. Lennon won't manage a top 5 club in Scotland again.

[WhileTheChief..]

The exact reason for him leaving Hibs isn't clear, but unless he's great at 4D chess, as well as possessing the ability to accurately predict the future, it's not possible that he engineered a move away. Wasn't it the case that he'd all but secured a job in Australia but was stopped from going at the last minute when Celtic called to offer him the job there temporarily?I don't think we should bring him back, but that's not the reason why.I understand some of the reasons why a lot of people wouldn't have him back even though I totally disagree!But there's a lot of stuff directed at Lennon that just doesn't add up for me.I loved his time at ER. I remember really looking forward to every game, I rarely feel that these days. It's not even just about results. I liked his interviews, his chat - he seemed to get us, knew what he wanted and what we needed.We are all as p'eed off as him in the summer window when McGann left so it's pretty unfair to say he broke up that side.Think back to the Natural Order game, and the build up to it with Levein mouthing off about us. Lennon was cool as a cucumber and got us the result. Have we had a better atmosphere at ER since then?Even in the interview posted today, he's talked more sense than LJ has done recently. A lot of fans on here are saying we've no identity and don't know what the plan is. That wasn't really the case when Lennon was boss.I genuinely thought we could win when we went up against Celtic and Rangers and we got some cracking results.For all the faults that folk on here speak of, I still think he'd get a tremendous reception on his return and ER would be bouncing once again. Gut feeling is that the players would love it too.Don't know why that's one big parapraph, I didn't;t type it like that.

[Smartie]

I loved Lennon as a Hibs manager.

First season - he had one job, and he delivered.

Second season - he had his team playing great stuff, the second half of the season was arguably my favourite half season following Hibs.

After that - he crashed and burned after failing to replace the midfield that left in the summer. He’s not alone though, as several individuals have struggled since including someone now managing in the EPL, someone now employed by Newcastle. And Shaun Maloney.

I’m not normally someone who pines over folk who have left but I think I’d have him back (although I’d rather back the guy already in position). He’s got a bit to prove after his disastrous end to his last spell at Celtic and I think we’d get a fired up Lennon, keen to rebuild his reputation. It might go up in flames but it wouldn’t be dull…

[jacomo]

I don’t want him anywhere near the club again either. I do find it funny though that some of the noisiest JR supporters don’t want NL back either though when NL can pretty much point to all the pros for JR and more and match him or better him.

Got us into Europe ✔️
Made a decent fist of Europe when he got there ✔️
Record points total ✔️
Got us to Hampden ✔️
Built an incredible side, potentially the best to watch in my lifetime ✔️
Won a trophy ✔️
Good few derby victories ✔️
Multiple wins over the Old Firm ✔️

Then there’s the fact he’s had a career elsewhere that JR could only dream of. Both them got binned at Hibs after horror runs.

I do find it funny when people are adamant JR was the best thing since sliced bread but they absolutely wouldn’t want NL back.


Straw man argument incoming!

I’d love to know many Hibs fans desperately want Jack Ross back but absolutely not Lennon. 10? 20?

[Pagan Hibernia]

I understand some of the reasons why a lot of people wouldn't have him back even though I totally disagree!But there's a lot of stuff directed at Lennon that just doesn't add up for me.I loved his time at ER. I remember really looking forward to every game, I rarely feel that these days. It's not even just about results. I liked his interviews, his chat - he seemed to get us, knew what he wanted and what we needed.We are all as p'eed off as him in the summer window when McGann left so it's pretty unfair to say he broke up that side.Think back to the Natural Order game, and the build up to it with Levein mouthing off about us. Lennon was cool as a cucumber and got us the result. Have we had a better atmosphere at ER since then?Even in the interview posted today, he's talked more sense than LJ has done recently. A lot of fans on here are saying we've no identity and don't know what the plan is. That wasn't really the case when Lennon was boss.I genuinely thought we could win when we went up against Celtic and Rangers and we got some cracking results.For all the faults that folk on here speak of, I still think he'd get a tremendous reception on his return and ER would be bouncing once again. Gut feeling is that the players would love it too.Don't know why that's one big parapraph, I didn't;t type it like that.Agree with this to a large extent, though I’d be ambivalent about him coming back (it’s not going to happen anyway so it’s a moot point).On balance I loved his time here.Season 1… achieved his objective. It wasn’t pretty at times, and yeah it was a poor division but he done what was asked. He also hammered hearts in the cup (and that certainly was pretty!), and may well have got us to a second consecutive Scottish cup final but for a flukey aberdeen deflection at hampden. An overall success.Season 2… ok until January, then fabulous until May. Largely down to some of his january signings. Could have been 2nd, ended up 4th. An overall success.Season 3… good first couple of months (people forget we were challenging hearts for top spot until Halloween). And a decent mini-run in Europe. The asteras games were fantastic. The remaining 3 months leading to his departure were horrible. A disappointing end to his time at Hibs.On balance, it was a good time. Plenty of derby and old firm wins to enjoy and there was a strong feeling about the club. And to those who say he inherited a good team from Stubbs… that of course is true, but I’m not sure what point you’re making. Presumably anything lennon might have achieved after that would have been devalued?I don’t think he should return. It rarely works out.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I understand some of the reasons why a lot of people wouldn't have him back even though I totally disagree!But there's a lot of stuff directed at Lennon that just doesn't add up for me.I loved his time at ER. I remember really looking forward to every game, I rarely feel that these days. It's not even just about results. I liked his interviews, his chat - he seemed to get us, knew what he wanted and what we needed.We are all as p'eed off as him in the summer window when McGann left so it's pretty unfair to say he broke up that side.Think back to the Natural Order game, and the build up to it with Levein mouthing off about us. Lennon was cool as a cucumber and got us the result. Have we had a better atmosphere at ER since then?Even in the interview posted today, he's talked more sense than LJ has done recently. A lot of fans on here are saying we've no identity and don't know what the plan is. That wasn't really the case when Lennon was boss.I genuinely thought we could win when we went up against Celtic and Rangers and we got some cracking results.For all the faults that folk on here speak of, I still think he'd get a tremendous reception on his return and ER would be bouncing once again. Gut feeling is that the players would love it too.Don't know why that's one big parapraph, I didn't;t type it like that.Your last sentence. No, I didn’t type mine as a long paragraph either. Very odd.

[MWHIBBIES]

How did he manage to get Leicester City to appoint Rodgers so that their was a vacancy at Celtic?!Why did Garry Parker leave at the same time only to be without a club for 6 months?It doesn't make sense that they worked their ticket and is simply a made up tale.LD mutually consented both of them because of the argument with Kamberi. Simple as that. And the absolutely woeful form. That certainly didn't help him.

[MWHIBBIES]

Might take Lennon if he had zero say in any transfers ever.

[WhileTheChief..]

Your last sentence. No, I didn’t type mine as a long paragraph either. Very odd.Even went back in to edit it but it then appeared like that.Not an easy read!

[sauzeelegod]

Would love Lennon back.
Fingers crossed.

[theonlywayisup]

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread, but I thought it deserved one of it's own. Whether you would want him back or not, I think Lennon is spot on with his observations on Hibs. Also an interesting reflection on his time at the club in a football Scotland article. https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/lee-johnson-gone-hibs-lose-27521274?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target'Neil Lennon knows all about what it's like to be in that pressurised hot seat at Easter Road, initially improving their fortunes before things turned sour and he left them lying eighth in the Premiership.He's spoken about how he set about bringing up the mentality at the club when he took over and how he's not sure how things are behind the scenes now.He said: "I think the players at the minute are inexperienced to play European football and then come again at the weekend. They've got to find that balance. Consistency is the key word for me at the minute, he's not getting it either in results or performances."There would be times I would be going nuts at them and they didn't get it. Drawing games and I would be really unhappy with them and they would be thinking 'this is a good result'. But ultimately it cost us finishing second or third."I think it's a good club but what is there reason to be at the minute? Is it to finish third behind Celtic and Rangers, get to a cup final, be the top team in Edinburgh, take points of Celtic and Rangers?"Every season that should be their reason to be but I'm not sure if that's the mentality at the minute."It's a pity that the conversation has been about Neil Lennon's time at Hibs and what he achieved or did not achieve. I wouldn't want him back, but I do fully agree with his comments about mentality at the club. For the majority of my time watching Hibs, we've been far too fragile and lacking the winner's mentality. Yes, we've had great wins, but we've rarely sustained it. We've no winners in this current Hibs team, although there are occasions (like last Thursday night) when an individual almost single handedly drives us forward (Newell).I'd expect our senior players to be the leaders in our team, but I don't think Hanlon, Marshall and Stevenson are that type of player. I was listening to Hanlon today and it was hardly Braveheart language.

[theonlywayisup]

Your last sentence. No, I didn’t type mine as a long paragraph either. Very odd.
Even went back in to edit it but it then appeared like that.Not an easy read!Spooky! Mine was re-edited into one paragraph when I typed it as two.

[greenlex]

Straw man argument incoming!I’d love to know many Hibs fans desperately want Jack Ross back but absolutely not Lennon. 10? 20?I’d have Ross back over Lennon if that was the choice. 100%. I’m glad that’s not the choice though.

[superfurryhibby]

It's a pity that the conversation has been about Neil Lennon's time at Hibs and what he achieved or did not achieve. I wouldn't want him back, but I do fully agree with his comments about mentality at the club. For the majority of my time watching Hibs, we've been far too fragile and lacking the winner's mentality. Yes, we've had great wins, but we've rarely sustained it. We've no winners in this current Hibs team, although there are occasions (like last Thursday night) when an individual almost single handedly drives us forward (Newell).I'd expect our senior players to be the leaders in our team, but I don't think Hanlon, Marshall and Stevenson are that type of player. I was listening to Hanlon today and it was hardly Braveheart language.

No winners, does that exclude the only player in our history to win both national cup competitions ?

Hibs have won as many national cup competitions as any club outside of the ersecheeks since the start of the 1990's ( I count Hibs, Hearts and St Johnston on 3?)
More to do with football budget than mentality and Braveheart language from our club captain

[Hibbyradge]

It's a pity that the conversation has been about Neil Lennon's time at Hibs and what he achieved or did not achieve. I wouldn't want him back, but I do fully agree with his comments about mentality at the club. For the majority of my time watching Hibs, we've been far too fragile and lacking the winner's mentality. Yes, we've had great wins, but we've rarely sustained it. We've no winners in this current Hibs team, although there are occasions (like last Thursday night) when an individual almost single handedly drives us forward (Newell).I'd expect our senior players to be the leaders in our team, but I don't think Hanlon, Marshall and Stevenson are that type of player. I was listening to Hanlon today and it was hardly Braveheart language.

He was commenting on a defeat. Shouting freedom at the top of his voice wasn't going to do him much good.

William Wallace was was hung, drawn, and quartered and his head was dipped in tar and placed on a pike on London Bridge.

I wonder what language he used after that particular defeat...

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

He was commenting on a defeat. Shouting freedom at the top of his voice wasn't going to do him much good.

William Wallace was was hung, drawn, and quartered and his head was dipped in tar and placed on a pike on London Bridge.

I wonder what language he used after that particular defeat...

Probably something along the lines of “ah ya **** that wiz sair”


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[007]

He was commenting on a defeat. Shouting freedom at the top of his voice wasn't going to do him much good.

William Wallace was was hung, drawn, and quartered and his head was dipped in tar and placed on a pike on London Bridge.

I wonder what language he used after that particular defeat...

"John Menteith threw me under the bus." 🤔

[Hibbyradge]

"John Menteith threw me under the bus." 🤔

:faf:

:thumbsup:

[.Sean.]

I'd 100% take McInnes over Lennon.Me too. I wanted McInness before we appointed both Maloney and Johnson

[Paulie Walnuts]

Straw man argument incoming!

I’d love to know many Hibs fans desperately want Jack Ross back but absolutely not Lennon. 10? 20?

There’s been posts on here saying exactly that. So it’s not in any way a straw man argument.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Me too. I wanted McInness before we appointed both Maloney and Johnson

I’d take McInnes. The boring football stuff is a complete myth. His teams won games, finished very high in the league every season pretty much and scored a good amount of goals. I also seen them rip us apart numerous times playing more than decent football.

[Donegal Hibby]

I’d take McInnes. The boring football stuff is a complete myth. His teams won games, finished very high in the league every season pretty much and scored a good amount of goals. I also seen them rip us apart numerous times playing more than decent football.I think the Aberdeen fans would probably disagree with you on the boring football myth part tbh .

[IberianHibernian]

I think the Aberdeen fans would probably disagree with you on the boring football myth part tbh .Exactly and not only Aberdeen fans . If we`re changing manager it`s to bring excitement on and off pitch . If alternative is McInnes ( with high salary and big compensation to Killie ) I`d rather give LJ more time till alternative comes up .

[The Modfather]

Exactly and not only Aberdeen fans . If we`re changing manager it`s to bring excitement on and off pitch . If alternative is McInnes ( with high salary and big compensation to Killie ) I`d rather give LJ more time till alternative comes up .

With Mcinnes I think the worst case scenario is he gets a whole lot more out of the squad than Johnson has/is. Actually signs a functioning midfield, and new fullbacks, and leaves a good starting point for the next man. Something no Hibs manager has achieved since Stubbs to Lennon. Possibly at the expense of a more Jack Ross-esque style of football.

The flip side is he might do the above while also playing more like the Aberdeen teams of his early years with Hayes & McGinn. I don’t see any aspect Johnson is more favourable in than Mcinnes.

[WestCoastHibby]

Except that he was the man in charge when we were getting all these draws and he’s still blaming the players.

There are mountains of folk sick fed up of LJ doing that right now.

Add me to that list

[jacomo]

I’d take McInnes. The boring football stuff is a complete myth. His teams won games, finished very high in the league every season pretty much and scored a good amount of goals. I also seen them rip us apart numerous times playing more than decent football.


Er, nope.

More often than not they got a result against us by being mean in defence and ‘robust’ play.

You wanted Jack Ross gone for the same reason McInnes got emptied at Aberdeen, so make your mind up.

To be fair to McInnes though, he’d lose his main goal threat and/or creative player every season at Aberdeen, and have to rebuild. That’s not easy.

I have nothing against him, I think he’s a good manager, but he’s definitely more Jack Ross than Tony Mowbray.

[Donegal Hibby]

Why don't we let the present manager get on with his job and judge his performance at the end of the season. Lennon couldn't wait to get out of the door to return to his beloved Celtic.Agreed 👍 . Thought he had to much to say about Celtic when he was doing interviews as Hibs boss too !🙄

[I'm Spartacus]

What did you expect us to win it by? Not many leagues are won by double figures.The job was to gain promotion, but the stats aren't something worthy of being carried on fans shoulders through the streets of Edinburgh. We need absolute stability, NL is not that figurehead.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Er, nope.

More often than not they got a result against us by being mean in defence and ‘robust’ play.

You wanted Jack Ross gone for the same reason McInnes got emptied at Aberdeen, so make your mind up.

To be fair to McInnes though, he’d lose his main goal threat and/or creative player every season at Aberdeen, and have to rebuild. That’s not easy.

I have nothing against him, I think he’s a good manager, but he’s definitely more Jack Ross than Tony Mowbray.

Derek McInnes’ Aberdeen side were the top goalscorers in the league outside the Old Firm the majority of seasons he was there. They had plenty cracking attacking players and quite often played teams off the park up at Pittodrie. In one league season alone they scored 7 twice, 6 once, 5 once and 4 twice.

The boring football stuff comes from the last season he was there when they scored a pitiful amount of goals.

To put it into perspective, every single season until 20/21, McInnes Aberdeen side scored significantly more goals than Jack Ross’ third place Hibs team. On average it was pretty much 30% more (46 for us, 60 for DMc on average) and on one occasion they scored a whopping 28 more (74 in 16/17 to our 46 in our third place season). They even finished a season with a +39 goal difference once (average over the 6 years was +21). Again, for perspective, we finished our third place season with a +13 goal difference. So all these 2nd and 3rd place finishes also carried a hell of a lot more excitement, domination and goals than ours did.

It absolutely is a myth that they were crap to watch or succeeded solely by being mean in defence. They averaged over 6 years a goals scored that is only 2 goals short of our 17/18 season which many would say is one of the most exciting seasons we’ve ever had watching Hibs, a season which most people would agree was very much a season of ‘we’ll just out score you’ from Hibs.

I wanted Jack Ross gone because his team was boring. Whilst people are obviously free to disagree if they want, the stats can back that up with us having the lowest goals scored for a third place team since the Premiership began when we finished third, so it’s not like it’s an outlandish suggestion. Derek McInnes Aberdeen side weren’t boring until his last full season. If we can get 6 years or so of good stuff before it becomes stale and boring I’ll take it.

[Heisenberg]

Agreed 👍 . Thought he had to much to say about Celtic when he was doing interviews as Hibs boss too !🙄

You think we should wait to judge Lee Johnson’s performance at the end of the season?

[bingo70]

Er, nope.

More often than not they got a result against us by being mean in defence and ‘robust’ play.

You wanted Jack Ross gone for the same reason McInnes got emptied at Aberdeen, so make your mind up.

To be fair to McInnes though, he’d lose his main goal threat and/or creative player every season at Aberdeen, and have to rebuild. That’s not easy.

I have nothing against him, I think he’s a good manager, but he’s definitely more Jack Ross than Tony Mowbray.

I’ve found some of the arguments for McInnes really compelling and difficult to argue with, I wasn’t a fan of the idea at all for the reasons you have mentioned. My perception of his sides is similar to that of Jack Ross’s teams. Apparently his Aberdeen teams scored loads of goals though and it was only in difficult away games they shut up shop and turned games scrappy?! (There’ll obviously be exceptions to that, I’m not saying they were brilliant at home every game).

My jambo mates tell me at the weekend though that Killie played like a typical Derek McInnes team and it was a horrible watch. Really scrappy, long balls and ball out of play as much as it was in it. They’ve got a bloody cheek I know.

Overall, if we were to go for McInnes, I would be open minded and look at the positives, there would be plenty of them. I’d have a few concerns but hey ho, no manager can offer a guarantee.

Just realised this is a Neil Lennon thread, my tuppence worth on him is that I don’t really know. There were times I loved him as a manager and there were times I didn’t. He’s presumably learned a bit since he managed us last and I would enjoy the radgeness/personality that he brings. I’m not blind to how his last spell ended though.

Given a choice I think I’d enjoy the gamble on Neil Lennon more than the safer bet of a more boring Derek McInnes. Realise gambles don’t always pay off though.

[Bridge hibs]

I’ve found some of the arguments for McInnes really compelling and difficult to argue with, I wasn’t a fan of the idea at all for the reasons you have mentioned. My perception of his sides is similar to that of Jack Ross’s teams. Apparently his Aberdeen teams scored loads of goals though and it was only in difficult away games they shut up shop and turned games scrappy?! (There’ll obviously be exceptions to that, I’m not saying they were brilliant at home every game).

My jambo mates tell me at the weekend though that Killie played like a typical Derek McInnes team and it was a horrible watch. Really scrappy, long balls and ball out of play as much as it was in it. They’ve got a bloody cheek I know.

Overall, if we were to go for McInnes, I would be open minded and look at the positives, there would be plenty of them. I’d have a few concerns but hey ho, no manager can offer a guarantee.

Just realised this is a Neil Lennon thread, my tuppence worth on him is that I don’t really know. There were times I loved him as a manager and there were times I didn’t. He’s presumably learned a bit since he managed us last and I would enjoy the radgeness/personality that he brings. I’m not blind to how his last spell ended though.

Given a choice I think I’d enjoy the gamble on Neil Lennon more than the safer bet of a more boring Derek McInnes. Realise gambles don’t always pay off though.To be honest playing hearts at tiny ground McInness probably set his team out to be difficult to break down, I watched the killie game v the rangers and thought killie played well in an attacking sense, they seemed well organised back to front, kept their shape and posed the rangers problems throughout

Whilst Im not a McInness fan by a long chalk being able to prepare your team and get 4 points in two difficult games gets some deserved credit from me

[McD]

To be honest playing hearts at tiny ground McInness probably set his team out to be difficult to break down, I watched the killie game v the rangers and thought killie played well in an attacking sense, they seemed well organised back to front, kept their shape and posed the rangers problems throughoutWhilst Im not a McInness fan by a long chalk being able to prepare your team and get 4 points in two difficult games gets some deserved credit from meWhile McInnes may be accused of being a bit boring - he knows how to set a team up, his teams have a consistency, a pattern of play, a purpose, and organisation. They score goals, they defend well, they get results, they fight and scrap and look like they are motivated. Pretty much every match.Can we say that we see that with any consistency at the moment?

[Nicho87]

Growing to want mcinnes more

The stats above are brilliant

Well done that poster

[J-C]

I get what Lennon says about us having a soft centre etc, but he didn't fix it when he was here, it was too much of a rollercoaster during his time. Now McInnes is the man I wanted before Johnson was appointed, knows Scottish football and we're now seeing his work with Killie bearing fruit, get him in asap.

[Since452]

Aberdeen fans hounded McInnes out for the very same reasons we hounded Jack Ross out for. Football wasn't exciting enough, didn't win big games, couldn't beat the old firm etc. The two are very similar. Wouldn't be long before Hibs fans were on his back saying the football wasn't good enough. FWIW i think he's a terrific manager, also thought Jack Ross was. I honestly don't think McInnes would last five minutes at Hibs due to the demands of the fans wanting free flowing expansive football. There have been posters on this forum in the past saying they'd accept mid table if the football was exciting. I'm not saying that is the view of every Hibs fan but i feel there is a certain expectation on Hibs to play a certain style of football more than other clubs. On this very thread we have posters wanting Neil Lennon back because he had half a season of electrifying football. All the dross he produced, all the mundane draws are forgotten. McInnes wouldn't stand a chance here.

[GreenGray]

Derek McInnes’ Aberdeen side were the top goalscorers in the league outside the Old Firm the majority of seasons he was there. They had plenty cracking attacking players and quite often played teams off the park up at Pittodrie. In one league season alone they scored 7 twice, 6 once, 5 once and 4 twice.The boring football stuff comes from the last season he was there when they scored a pitiful amount of goals.To put it into perspective, every single season until 20/21, McInnes Aberdeen side scored significantly more goals than Jack Ross’ third place Hibs team. On average it was pretty much 30% more (46 for us, 60 for DMc on average) and on one occasion they scored a whopping 28 more (74 in 16/17 to our 46 in our third place season). They even finished a season with a +39 goal difference once (average over the 6 years was +21). Again, for perspective, we finished our third place season with a +13 goal difference. So all these 2nd and 3rd place finishes also carried a hell of a lot more excitement, domination and goals than ours did.It absolutely is a myth that they were crap to watch or succeeded solely by being mean in defence. They averaged over 6 years a goals scored that is only 2 goals short of our 17/18 season which many would say is one of the most exciting seasons we’ve ever had watching Hibs, a season which most people would agree was very much a season of ‘we’ll just out score you’ from Hibs.I wanted Jack Ross gone because his team was boring. Whilst people are obviously free to disagree if they want, the stats can back that up with us having the lowest goals scored for a third place team since the Premiership began when we finished third, so it’s not like it’s an outlandish suggestion. Derek McInnes Aberdeen side weren’t boring until his last full season. If we can get 6 years or so of good stuff before it becomes stale and boring I’ll take it.Great post, think McInnes is what we need, despite being against the idea last year. Cannot understand the clamour for Lennon whatsoever. The guy left us in 8th, drew 8 times in a poor standard championship and is pretty toxic.

[Since452]

Great post, think McInnes is what we need, despite being against the fact last year. Cannot understand the clamour for Lennon whatsoever. The guy left us in 8th, drew 8 times in a poor standard championship and is pretty toxic.Even worse. 14 draws.

[GreenGray]

Even worse. 14 draws.

Yup, my bad. That’s shocking.


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[The Modfather]

Aberdeen fans hounded McInnes out for the very same reasons we hounded Jack Ross out for. Football wasn't exciting enough, didn't win big games, couldn't beat the old firm etc. The two are very similar. Wouldn't be long before Hibs fans were on his back saying the football wasn't good enough. FWIW i think he's a terrific manager, also thought Jack Ross was. I honestly don't think McInnes would last five minutes at Hibs due to the demands of the fans wanting free flowing expansive football. There have been posters on this forum in the past saying they'd accept mid table if the football was exciting. I'm not saying that is the view of every Hibs fan but i feel there is a certain expectation on Hibs to play a certain style of football more than other clubs. On this very thread we have posters wanting Neil Lennon back because he had half a season of electrifying football. All the dross he produced, all the mundane draws is forgotten. McInnes wouldn't stand a chance here.

I don’t think Aberdeen fans hounded Mcinnes out until after the first 4 or 5 years. The ones I know were happy with him for the first 4 or 5 years when they were finishing 2nd & 3rd, as well as winning a trophy. They did debate whether he won as much as he should have done though.

I think we only saw the defensive, agricultural Mcinnes as his only way to continue delivering success after one too many rebuilds required for players they lost. I’m not sure that style is his go to template from choice.

Success built upon a template of flying wingers like Hayes & McGinn for a number of years, before we had to grudgingly accept more pragmatic football to stay successful, before that wore off and was time for a new manager. I’d take that. Not sure the Ross comparisons are particularly valid. He delivered fleeting success, in a non spectacular manner, before an instant fall off.

[erin go bragh]

I’d take McInnes. The boring football stuff is a complete myth. His teams won games, finished very high in the league every season pretty much and scored a good amount of goals. I also seen them rip us apart numerous times playing more than decent football.Nah never ripped us apart but went 1-0 up and strangled the gameFolk just wanting Mcinnes as Johnston is so bad imo.

[Heisenberg]

Nah never ripped us apart but went 1-0 up and strangled the gameFolk just wanting Mcinnes as Johnston is so bad imo.

Pumped us a few times at Pittodrie I’m sure. Once when the messiah Lenny was in charge I think.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I don’t think Aberdeen fans hounded Mcinnes out until after the first 4 or 5 years. The ones I know were happy with him for the first 4 or 5 years when they were finishing 2nd & 3rd, as well as winning a trophy. They did debate whether he won as much as he should have done though.

I think we only saw the defensive, agricultural Mcinnes as his only way to continue delivering success after one too many rebuilds required for players they lost. I’m not sure that style is his go to template from choice.

Success built upon a template of flying wingers like Hayes & McGinn for a number of years, before we had to grudgingly accept more pragmatic football to stay successful, before that wore off and was time for a new manager. I’d take that. Not sure the Ross comparisons are particularly valid. He delivered fleeting success, in a non spectacular manner, before an instant fall off.

:agree:

The idea that the two are similar doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever.

He’s got a significantly better PPG at Aberdeen than JR had at Hibs, scored an absolute barrel load more goals than JRs Hibs team, won a trophy, numerous 2nd and 3rd place finishes, managed at a higher level than JR ever has and is making a good fist of his new job after JR crashed and burned at his.

There is absolutely no similarities, they’re incomparable. McInnes has shown over a number of years he’s in a completely different league to JR. People claiming they’re similar are purely trying to latch on to how good a manager DMc is to give a false idea of how good JR was. They’re two different managers, with two different styles and an absolute gulf in terms of how succesful they’ve been. Comparing Ross and McInnes is like comparing a middle of the road SPFL left back to John McGinn.

[Kato]

While McInnes may be accused of being a bit boring - he knows how to set a team up, his teams have a consistency, a pattern of play, a purpose, and organisation. They score goals, they defend well, they get results, they fight and scrap and look like they are motivated. Pretty much every match.Can we say that we see that with any consistency at the moment?When it comes to McInnes version of fighting and scrapping - their is no way on earth a Hibs team would be given the leeway his Aberdeen side were given. Eight fouls before a booking Kung Fu kicks looked at sympathetically with the player allowed to subbed rather than red carded.

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[Paulie Walnuts]

Nah never ripped us apart but went 1-0 up and strangled the gameFolk just wanting Mcinnes as Johnston is so bad imo.

Aberdeen beat us 1-0 on 4 occasions under McInnes in 20 matches. Let’s not pretend that’s all they ever done.

[James Stephen]

Its simple, very, very few teams who achieve success, on anything like a sustained basis, do it by bulding from the front, its like trying to build the roof before the walls are up.

Build a well coached team, structured, hard to beat. Then try and add quality and improvement top end. Until Hibs and Hibs fans learn to accept that, they will remain inconsistent and unreliable.

McInnes is a top manager, anyone who wouldnt want him with his record needs their heads read.

[GreenGray]

I do think it can be easy for fans to rewrite history based on their recent memories of both Lennon and McInnes. But when presented with stats there isn’t much of an argument to have.


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[Donegal Hibby]

You think we should wait to judge Lee Johnson’s performance at the end of the season?I definitely give him longer than some are on here tbh . Even after two defeats in our opening League games we are only 4 points of 3rd . I think we will lose Thursday ( Against a good team imo ) and win our next two games after that . I still maintain we will finish 3rd ,4th or 5th under the current manager which to me is acceptable.One of the things I find most concerning about replacing the current manager is the names people want to replace him . Yes McInnes has a good record though I've watched a lot of them over the years and thought the way they play was awful which was also the opinion of the Aberdeen fans who wanted him gone . Would we all be happy with McInnes style of football ? I'd doubt it , I know I wouldn't tbh .When Neil Lennon took over at Hibs it was one of the best times you could take over as we had a really good team on a high after our famous cup win and in the championship were there was only one way we were going , up !. Towards the end of Lennon's rein the team had deteriorated from what it was and we were struggling . We also had the horrible carry on with Leanne Dempster which felt like he was angling for a move back to parkhead on which he did and spent over £30 million on a load of dross and failed miserably.We had Martindale, Murray, Bartley, brown all mentioned who I all see as a backward step on our current manager . I even had another poster telling me we should get rid of LJ and appoint Malky McKay as he's a good manager who will get us 3rd ! . Almost all of the candidates put forward by posters I'd rather we avoided or have me worried tbh which is another reason I'd give the current manager more time . I'm not having a go or trying to rattle anyone's cage on this though my opinion is to give the manager more time 👍

[Paulie Walnuts]

I definitely give him longer than some are on here tbh . Even after two defeats in our opening League games we are only 4 points of 3rd . I think we will lose Thursday ( Against a good team imo ) and win our next two games after that . I still maintain we will finish 3rd ,4th or 5th under the current manager which to me is acceptable.One of the things I find most concerning about replacing the current manager is the names people want to replace him . Yes McInnes has a good record though I've watched a lot of them over the years and thought the way they play was awful which was also the opinion of the Aberdeen fans who wanted him gone . Would we all be happy with McInnes style of football ? I'd doubt it , I know I wouldn't tbh .When Neil Lennon took over at Hibs it was one of the best times you could take over as we had a really good team on a high after our famous cup win and in the championship were there was only one way we were going , up !. Towards the end of Lennon's rein the team had deteriorated from what it was and we were struggling . We also had the horrible carry on with Leanne Dempster which felt like he was angling for a move back to parkhead on which he did and spent over £30 million on a load of dross and failed miserably.We had Martindale, Murray, Bartley, brown all mentioned who I all see as a backward step on our current manager . I even had another poster telling me we should get rid of LJ and appoint Malky McKay as he's a good manager who will get us 3rd ! . Almost all of the candidates put forward by posters I'd rather we avoided or have me worried tbh which is another reason I'd give the current manager more time . I'm not having a go or trying to rattle anyone's cage on this though my opinion is to give the manager more time 👍

Aberdeen fans didn’t think the way they played was awful until his last season.

My cousin is an Aberdeen fan. He thought he was the absolute man, albeit there was a frustration they couldn’t have won more trophies, and then it went completely stale the season we got third. That was on the back of 6 successful years where generally speaking the Aberdeen fans loved him.

Remember when he turned down Rangers? The Aberdeen fans were absolutely buzzing. They wouldn’t have been if he was brutal to watch.

It’s also interesting that despite all that success, the minute it went stale and boring Aberdeen fans wanted rid. People make out on here that it’s only Hibs fans and their unrealistic expectations but there’s a very clear example of another team having done the exact same. Quite clearly it’s not just Hibs fans who want to be entertained.

If McInnes got the Hibs job and done what he done for 6 of his 7 seasons at Aberdeen the fans would love him. There’d be barrel loads of goals and 3rd place finishes. If he comes in and does what he done for 1 season at Aberdeen, he’d be hounded out. The odds would absolutely be in his favour though.

[Donegal Hibby]

Aberdeen fans didn’t think the way they played was awful until his last season.My cousin is an Aberdeen fan. He thought he was the absolute man, albeit there was a frustration they couldn’t have won more trophies, and then it went completely stale the season we got third. That was on the back of 6 successful years where generally speaking the Aberdeen fans loved him.Remember when he turned down Rangers? The Aberdeen fans were absolutely buzzing. They wouldn’t have been if he was brutal to watch.It’s also interesting that despite all that success, the minute it went stale and boring Aberdeen fans wanted rid. People make out on here that it’s only Hibs fans and their unrealistic expectations but there’s a very clear example of another team having done the exact same. Quite clearly it’s not just Hibs fans who want to be entertained.If McInnes got the Hibs job and done what he done for 6 of his 7 seasons at Aberdeen the fans would love him. There’d be barrel loads of goals and 3rd place finishes. If he comes in and does what he done for 1 season at Aberdeen, he’d be hounded out. The odds would absolutely be in his favour though.I remember when things started to go bad for JR there was criticism about the style of football and the attendances at ER seemed to go down . Having watched Aberdeen over the years under McInnes I'd say Aberdeen were well organised and hardworking though I couldn't say I thought they were entertaining or exciting to watch tbh and I'd rather not see Hibs playing like that though maybe that's just me that's of that opinion.I doubt very much McInnes would do what he done at Aberdeen if he became Hibs manager tbh , it is a totally different situation now in fairness. Firstly in the 2014 season there was no hertz , Hibs or Sevco . 2 season's without Sevco and 3 without Hibs and even when they did all come back they weren't great. The Sevco back then and the one now are two totally different beasts sadly. Without trying to take away to much of what McInnes achieved at Aberdeen it was certainly easier to do without 3 of the top teams in Scotland. One of his last season's Aberdeen scored 36 league goals out of 38 league games which is poor and left after one goal scored in 9 games . Simply for the style of football his team's play I wouldn't be keen on him at all if we needed a manager. I still think we will finish 3rd , 4th or 5th this season under the current manager.👍

[Since452]

Always found Aberdeen rather industrial but effective under McInnes. As soon as they got their noses in front it was as good as game over. Shinnie in the middle spoiling everything. Never once saw them and thought "that's some team that". Mind you i don't follow Aberdeen.

[Donegal Hibby]

Always found Aberdeen rather industrial but effective under McInnes. As soon as they got their noses in front it was as good as game over. Shinnie in the middle spoiling everything. Never once saw them and thought "that's some team that". Mind you i don't follow Aberdeen.This is pretty much were I'm at with Derek McInnes Aberdeen team too , over the years watching them I don't think ever thought they were all that exciting TBH.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I remember when things started to go bad for JR there was criticism about the style of football and the attendances at ER seemed to go down . Having watched Aberdeen over the years under McInnes I'd say Aberdeen were well organised and hardworking though I couldn't say I thought they were entertaining or exciting to watch tbh and I'd rather not see Hibs playing like that though maybe that's just me that's of that opinion.I doubt very much McInnes would do what he done at Aberdeen if he became Hibs manager tbh , it is a totally different situation now in fairness. Firstly in the 2014 season there was no hertz , Hibs or Sevco . 2 season's without Sevco and 3 without Hibs and even when they did all come back they weren't great. The Sevco back then and the one now are two totally different beasts sadly. Without trying to take away to much of what McInnes achieved at Aberdeen it was certainly easier to do without 3 of the top teams in Scotland. One of his last season's Aberdeen scored 36 league goals out of 38 league games which is poor and left after one goal scored in 9 games . Simply for the style of football his team's play I wouldn't be keen on him at all if we needed a manager. I still think we will finish 3rd , 4th or 5th this season under the current manager.👍

Aberdeen scored more goals on average in McInnes’ full seasons than every Hibs team since the Tornadoes other than 17/18, 05/06, 04/05 and 80/81.

If that’s not entertaining or exciting then I’m not sure what is. As I said, the idea his Aberdeen teams were brutal to watch over his tenure is one of the biggest myths around imo but if you believe they were like that then fair enough.

[DH1875]

McInnes is a better manager than Johnson but he wouldn't last at Easter Rd due to his hun connection.
Imagine McInnes had been in charge the past year instead of Johnson but that everything else was the exact same. He'd have been hounded out by now.

[Paulie Walnuts]

McInnes is a better manager than Johnson but he wouldn't last at Easter Rd due to his hun connection.
Imagine McInnes had been in charge the past year instead of Johnson but that everything else was the exact same. He'd have been hounded out by now.

I think you could almost guarantee it wouldn’t be the exact same. His record in Scotland is incredible. There’s absolutely zero doubt in my mind he’d be a better Hibs manager than Lee Johnson. If he was to do a similar job to LJ though then he likely would have been hounded out, I agree.

The big problem with McInnes for me is I’m not sure he’d come. He seems to like to spend a good bit of time at clubs, as we seen when he knocked back Rangers. If he can knock them back then I’m sure he could knock us back.

[Since452]

We absolutely should have gone for McInnes after Maloney was punted. It was an obvious no brainer for me. He appears to be fairly loyal though so not convinced we would get him if we came calling. Our turnover of managers is insane and he's in a very safe job at Kilmarnock. He turned down Rangers and Sunderland while at Aberdeen so would he come through our revolving door? Like it or not Lee is going to be here for the foreseeable future.

[matty_f]

Win % are a fairly pointless comparison. It only considers 1 of 3 possible results.

NL had a significantly higher PPG (albeit some in the Championship), a measure that considers all results combined.

I’m not sure you can make just as good an argument for Ross. You can make one that’s quite close, but NL has him beat in most measures. He won a trophy, he done better in Europe, he had a team that played more attractive football, he gained more points and he has had an infinitely more succesfull career elsewhere.

Taking Lennon’s PPG with a full season in the Championship and comparing with Ross isn’t a like for like comparison and doesn’t represent a fair view.

[matty_f]

I would agree with that. I’m not a fan of JR but you’ll never find me trotting out the ‘aye but hearts weren’t in the league’ excuse.

The only thing I would say though is that whilst I wouldn’t say it shows JR was lucky, I do think it would be fair to say NL was unlucky to finish 4th. His points total was a good bit better than JRs when he finished third but still only got us 4th place. On the face of it, it was still 4th place, but it was a bawhair away from 2nd.

By the same token then, Ross was a bawhair away from winning the Scottish Cup.

[matty_f]

I’d have Ross back over Lennon if that was the choice. 100%. I’m glad that’s not the choice though.

If it was a shootout between the two, i agree.

Both have had their time though, and we should look elsewhere next time.

[Donegal Hibby]

Aberdeen scored more goals on average in McInnes’ full seasons than every Hibs team since the Tornadoes other than 17/18, 05/06, 04/05 and 80/81.If that’s not entertaining or exciting then I’m not sure what is. As I said, the idea his Aberdeen teams were brutal to watch over his tenure is one of the biggest myths around imo but if you believe they were like that then fair enough.You seem to be forgetting the fact a year without hertz , two without Sevco and 3 without us . He hardly had a a lot of competition back then and even when the 3 did come back they weren't very good . His Aberdeen team were hardworking and organised yes though when they'd be on the TV I wouldn't be that excited in watching them tbh . As I said if you look on the Aberdeen forum under the Derek McInnes thread Aberdeen's football was certainly brutal according to there fans . It wouldn't take long for folk on here to turn on him either imo .

[Paulie Walnuts]

Taking Lennon’s PPG with a full season in the Championship and comparing with Ross isn’t a like for like comparison and doesn’t represent a fair view.


1.6ppg for Lennon to Ross’ 1.48 whilst Hibs manager in the Scottish Premiership.

[stantonhibby]

1.6ppg for Lennon to Ross’ 1.48 whilst Hibs manager in the Scottish Premiership.

Which you've said previously on this thread would be about 5 points over a season...'a not insignificant amount'

Yet you've repeatedly said that there is marginal if any improvement from Maloney to Johnson? The PPG numbers for league games are 1.10 for Maloney and 1.37 for Johnson which by my calculations is over 10 points better in a season? So surely that's significantly better?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Which you've said previously on this thread would be about 5 points over a season...'a not insignificant amount'

Yet you've repeatedly said that there is marginal if any improvement from Maloney to Johnson? The PPG numbers for league games are 1.10 for Maloney and 1.37 for Johnson which by my calculations is over 10 points better in a season? So surely that's significantly better?

And we were discussing all competitions in that discussion.

The difference in all competitions was 2 if you gave cup games a points equivalent rather than using the fairly pointless win% stat. That figure may have changed since the discussion as well.

I had said in that same conversation that if we were talking 5 points or so that is a more significant amount.

[007]

We absolutely should have gone for McInnes after Maloney was punted. It was an obvious no brainer for me. He appears to be fairly loyal though so not convinced we would get him if we came calling. Our turnover of managers is insane and he's in a very safe job at Kilmarnock. He turned down Rangers and Sunderland while at Aberdeen so would he come through our revolving door? Like it or not Lee is going to be here for the foreseeable future.

Agree, would be surprised if McInnes would want to come to us. He's better off where he is as it looks like his team will be challenging for top 6 so is likely his job will be safe for this season at the very least. Whereas with us he could quite feasibly be in and out before the end of the season so even with a significant pay rise and chunky pay-off clause he could well end up worse off financially and would also be unemployed.

In fact I'd be surprised if any currently employed manager, with the credentials we'd be after, would want to come to us. Of the names I've seen mentioned on here Lennon or Ross are far more likely.

[blackpoolhibs]

While McInnes may be accused of being a bit boring - he knows how to set a team up, his teams have a consistency, a pattern of play, a purpose, and organisation. They score goals, they defend well, they get results, they fight and scrap and look like they are motivated. Pretty much every match.Can we say that we see that with any consistency at the moment?I dont see what more anyone would want, football games are between 2 teams, and we all want to be the team that wins.Winning with style is great, but i'd take winning over style every time, as Brazil styled football rarely happen, and more often than not the opposition work out how to beat them unless it's the 50s 60s or 70s

[stantonhibby]

And we were discussing all competitions in that discussion.

The difference in all competitions was 2 if you gave cup games a points equivalent rather than using the fairly pointless win% stat. That figure may have changed since the discussion as well.

I had said in that same conversation that if we were talking 5 points or so that is a more significant amount.

Ok....so if you included cup games JR's PPG would increase a fair bit given the good cup runs?

[Paulie Walnuts]

You seem to be forgetting the fact a year without hertz , two without Sevco and 3 without us . He hardly had a a lot of competition back then and even when the 3 did come back they weren't very good . His Aberdeen team were hardworking and organised yes though when they'd be on the TV I wouldn't be that excited in watching them tbh . As I said if you look on the Aberdeen forum under the Derek McInnes thread Aberdeen's football was certainly brutal according to there fans . It wouldn't take long for folk on here to turn on him either imo .

He finished above Sevco twice, Hearts 6 times and us 5.

He finished behind Sevco three times, never finished behind Hearts and finished behind us once (although he was sacked before the season finished but I’ll give you this one.

So he finished infront of the 3 of us a combined 13 times and behind us a combined 4.

You’re trying far too hard to downplay his achievements. Such and such wasn’t in the league, such and such weren’t very good when they were in the league. The job he done was incredible. No amount of excuses changes that.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Ok....so if you included cup games JR's PPG would increase a fair bit given the good cup runs?

I’ve not looked, you tell me?

[matty_f]

1.6ppg for Lennon to Ross’ 1.48 whilst Hibs manager in the Scottish Premiership.
Is that only League games?
Very little in it then, over how many games for each?

Better comparison than lumping in Lennon’s Championship season.

[bingo70]

I dont see what more anyone would want, football games are between 2 teams, and we all want to be the team that wins.Winning with style is great, but i'd take winning over style every time, as Brazil styled football rarely happen, and more often than not the opposition work out how to beat them unless it's the 50s 60s or 70s

It’s been explained to you a million and one times what people want. It’s not that you don’t see what other people want, it’s that you don’t agree with it.

Nobody I’ve seen that wants to enjoy the football on display has ever mentioned wanting Brazil style football, it’s just people like yourself make that up to suit your agenda.

I can only speak for myself but playing effective, attacking, high intensity football, trying to score goals with exciting players is all I want. That could be through route one football if it’s effective and done properly.

It doesn’t have to be free flowing, fast, passing Brazil ‘70 style football.

FWIW I realise I’m wasting my time posting this as it’ll be ignored and we’ll have the same debate again before the weeks out no doubt.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Very little in it then, over how many games for each?

Better comparison than lumping in Lennon’s Championship season.

I already posted the comparison earlier in the thread.

60 for Lennon, 72 for Ross.

[stantonhibby]

I’ve not looked, you tell me?

That'll be a yes then.

[Paulie Walnuts]

That'll be a yes then.

What does it come out as?

[bingo70]

Ok....so if you included cup games JR's PPG would increase a fair bit given the good cup runs?

If you were taking Lennons championship season out the equation out of fairness as it was against lesser teams, would you need to take Ross’s cup results against lower league opposition out the equation too for the same reason?

[Paulie Walnuts]

If you were taking Lennons championship season out the equation out of fairness as it was against lesser teams, would you need to take Ross’s cup results against lower league opposition out the equation too for the same reason?

Oh ffs it’s all getting a bit messy now :greengrin

[Smartie]

We possibly didn’t see the best of McInnes’ teams, he struck me as a “horses for courses” manager. We’re arguably one of their main rivals and he probably thought that an ugly game plan that frustrates us and stopped us playing was the best way to get the better of us and tbf from my recollection it was fairly effective. He always seemed to have good attacking players, maybe he gave them more freedom on appropriate occasions?

The “Aberdeen were a stuffy side under McInnes” argument is definitely one I think I’ve heard more from Hibs fans than Aberdeen ones.

If he fancies coming along to Easter Road, opening up against weaker sides and getting the ugliest of results against Aberdeen and Hearts then he can be my guest.

[Paulie Walnuts]

We possibly didn’t see the best of McInnes’ teams, he struck me as a “horses for courses” manager. We’re arguably one of their main rivals and he probably thought that an ugly game plan that frustrates us and stopped us playing was the best way to get the better of us and tbf from my recollection it was fairly effective. He always seemed to have good attacking players, maybe he gave them more freedom on appropriate occasions?

The “Aberdeen were a stuffy side under McInnes” argument is definitely one I think I’ve heard more from Hibs fans than Aberdeen ones.

If he fancies coming along to Easter Road, opening up against weaker sides and getting the ugliest of results against Aberdeen and Hearts then he can be my guest.

Aberdeen fans thought the season he got sacked was crap.

Before that they were more than happy with him. About 4 or 5 seasons in to his Aberdeen career they were rejoicing that he’d turned down Rangers. Hardly how you’d expect a crowd who were fed up of the guy to react.

[stantonhibby]

What does it come out as?

I've no idea, you've usually got all the answers. I just think if you're using PPG to compare managers then it has to be a consistent criteria otherwise it looks like you're being a bit selective to suit your argument which I'm sure you wouldn't do 😀. Anyway I'm boring myself now so i'll leave it there.

[stantonhibby]

Oh ffs it’s all getting a bit messy now :greengrin

On that we agree👍

[blackpoolhibs]

It’s been explained to you a million and one times what people want. It’s not that you don’t see what other people want, it’s that you don’t agree with it.Nobody I’ve seen that wants to enjoy the football on display has ever mentioned wanting Brazil style football, it’s just people like yourself make that up to suit your agenda.I can only speak for myself but playing effective, attacking, high intensity football, trying to score goals with exciting players is all I want. That could be through route one football if it’s effective and done properly.It doesn’t have to be free flowing, fast, passing Brazil ‘70 style football.FWIW I realise I’m wasting my time posting this as it’ll be ignored and we’ll have the same debate again before the weeks out no doubt.I'm not ignoring that you want to be entertained Bingo, i want to be entertained too. I just feel more entertained when we win, and get pissed off quicker when we lose 5-4. We've had a few times in my life where we've had fantastic stuff played, the tornadoes, McCleish, Mowbray and to a lesser extent Lennon and Stubbs. I've been watching for nearly 60 years now and perhaps under those above i've had 6 maybe 7 seasons where it was good, but they all lost games against the likes of Stranraer or Alloa. Give me a winning team all day long, the Brazil stuff rarely lasts and is not as good as we make out either.

[matty_f]

If you were taking Lennons championship season out the equation out of fairness as it was against lesser teams, would you need to take Ross’s cup results against lower league opposition out the equation too for the same reason?

I think if you’re doing PPG then you go like for like and that’s league games only. You can compare cup runs easily enough but like you say, lesser teams skew the figures and even the difference us 0.1ish points per game then those results can make a difference.

I’m not sure how PPG is more reliable than win percentage, either. The argument that it only considers three outcomes is equally relevant to PPG where, per game, you can only get one of three outcomes: 3,1, or 0. It’s a false argument to say one holds more weight than the other.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I think if you’re doing PPG then you go like for like and that’s league games only. You can compare cup runs easily enough but like you say, lesser teams skew the figures and even the difference us 0.1ish points per game then those results can make a difference.

I’m not sure how PPG is more reliable than win percentage, either. The argument that it only considers three outcomes is equally relevant to PPG where, per game, you can only get one of three outcomes: 3,1, or 0. It’s a false argument to say one holds more weight than the other.


PPG gives you a true reflection of all results. For example, if you have a PPG of 2 you’d pick up 76 points over a season. It considers the fact you’ve won games, lost games and drawn games. It tells you exactly how you’ve faired and there’s no room for ambiguity. It’s considered all the results.

If you have a win% of 50% then you could have anything from 57 points to 76 points which would be a massive difference over a season. It tells you very little without also being mentioned alongside draw and loss% as well and even then, posting it as a percentage would just leave people having to work it out in points terms if the figures were pretty close. Posting a win%, using 50% again as an example, has only given you the record for half the games that season. You’ve no idea how you fared in the other half.

Throwing cup games into it does skew it a wee bit, but it still gives a better idea of an overall record than posting about win% and nothing else imo. In terms of league results though it’s not a false argument in the slightest, it’s undeniably true.

[matty_f]

Eh?

PPG gives you a true reflection of all results, especially in league terms. For example, if you have a PPG of 2 you’d pick up 76 points over a season. It considers the fact you’ve won games, lost games and drawn games. It tells you exactly how you’ve faired.

If you have a win% of 50% then you could have anything from 57 points to 76 points which would be a massive difference over a season. It tells you very little without also being mentioned alongside draw and loss% as well.

PPG is great if you’re comparing like for like but it’s not without flaws, it doesn’t tell you how those ppg were gained for example, did the manager win a high percentage, draw hardly any but lose a lot (Streaky Lee, for example), compared to another who might not win as many but certainly doesn’t lose as much.

Would be interesting to see what Ross’ PPG was after 60 games (which was Lennon’s top flight league games only?)

PPG used *with* win percentage gives you a better picture. As with most stats, you need more than one measure to tell a story well.

[WeeRussell]

If it was a shootout between the two, i agree.

Both have had their time though, and we should look elsewhere next time.

Correct again, Matty 👍

[Donegal Hibby]

He finished above Sevco twice, Hearts 6 times and us 5. He finished behind Sevco three times, never finished behind Hearts and finished behind us once (although he was sacked before the season finished but I’ll give you this one.So he finished infront of the 3 of us a combined 13 times and behind us a combined 4.You’re trying far too hard to downplay his achievements. Such and such wasn’t in the league, such and such weren’t very good when they were in the league. The job he done was incredible. No amount of excuses changes that.Not trying to downplay his achievements merely pointing out that his achievements at Aberdeen were a lot easier to do then than they would be now . You said " if McInnes got the Hibs job and done what he done for 6 out of the 7 seasons at Hibs the fans would love him " I don't think he would tbh . This is the Hun team he finished ahead of . Foderingham . Lee Wallace . C Hill . D Wilson. J Tavernier. H Forrester. A Haliday..J Holt . B McKay. J Garner and M Waghorn . Pretty poor imo as was the hertz team back then too . Personally don't think there's much between hertz , dons and us now and the Huns sadly are on a different planet now though when McInnes was manager the situation was totally different . He done a good job at Aberdeen though imo it was easier to do under the circumstances . I never thought Aberdeen played nice football under McInnes even when they were going well and towards the end it was brutal TBH .

[#2 Double Tap]

.

[007]

Not trying to downplay his achievements merely pointing out that his achievements at Aberdeen were a lot easier to do then than they would be now . You said " if McInnes got the Hibs job and done what he done for 6 out of the 7 seasons at Hibs the fans would love him " I don't think he would tbh . This is the Hun team he finished ahead of . Foderingham . Lee Wallace . C Hill . D Wilson. J Tavernier. H Forrester. A Haliday..J Holt . B McKay. J Garner and M Waghorn . Pretty poor imo as was the hertz team back then too . Personally don't think there's much between hertz , dons and us now and the Huns sadly are on a different planet now though when McInnes was manager the situation was totally different . He done a good job at Aberdeen though imo it was easier to do under the circumstances . I never thought Aberdeen played nice football under McInnes even when they were going well and towards the end it was brutal TBH .

Derek McInnes is a good manager. There's no chance he'd be here for 7 years though, we'd expect him to achieve a similar level of success and hound him out if he was falling short or hit a rough patch. We get through about 4 or 5 managers in that sort of timeframe. If he's got any sense he'd turn us down.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

There’s alot of assumption here that Mcinnes would actually fancy the Hibs job / want to leave Killie.

Given his past allegiances he might prefer to be over that side of the country, and it’s been demonstrated before that a good job at Killie can lead on to better things (Steve Clarke won’t stay Scotland manager forever)

I’m not convinced we could just go and get him if we sacked LJ

[007]

There’s alot of assumption here that Mcinnes would actually fancy the Hibs job / want to leave Killie.

Given his past allegiances he might prefer to be over that side of the country, and it’s been demonstrated before that a good job at Killie can lead on to better things (Steve Clarke won’t stay Scotland manager forever)

I’m not convinced we could just go and get him if we sacked LJ

Good point. McInnes would be a strong candidate to be Clarke's successor. Killie stuck by him through their relegation battle and early signs are they could well be in the mix for top 6. Unlikely he'll do as well as Clarke but getting them punching above their weight is still a success.

Sacking a manager that qualified for Europe and is still in Europe, only 2 league games into the season sends out the wrong signals. "Avoid". McInnes will be well aware of the general opinion within the game that Jack Ross was sacked by us too quickly and if you add to that Maloney only lasting a few months then it paints the picture of a club that's trigger happy.

With most of our transfer dealings done, McInnes would have to wait until January before he could bring in his own players, if he lasted that long. There's not a lot of appeal to leave where he is to join us.

[JamesHFC]

If I was McInnes I wouldn't bother, there is no way our fan base give him enough time.

[Since452]

If I was McInnes I wouldn't bother, there is no way our fan base give him enough time.

We are an appealing club for a lot of reasons but the huge elephant in the room are the fans and the potential quick sacking. At McInnes's stage of career and life I highly doubt he'd fancy it.

[Nicho87]

I’m the opposite I think a lot of managers would fancy themselves and think with backing like hibs have been given out in terms of finances.

He could be the manager to get us steadily challenging for third and cups.

I’d be all over mcinnes.

[bingo70]

We are an appealing club for a lot of reasons but the huge elephant in the room are the fans and the potential quick sacking. At McInnes's stage of career and life I highly doubt he'd fancy it.

The only manager who was sacked quickly was Maloney.

Ross was here for ages and relatively talking Johnson being here for over a season and getting good backing in 3 transfer windows isn’t a short period of time in the modern world of football management. If we were a trigger happy club regarding managers we had plenty opportunity to sack LJ last season.

[Pagan Hibernia]

The only manager who was sacked quickly was Maloney.Ross was here for ages and relatively talking Johnson being here for over a season and getting good backing in 3 transfer windows isn’t a short period of time in the modern world of football management. If we were a trigger happy club regarding managers we had plenty opportunity to sack LJ last season.What about Hecky? 8 months and 3 of those were the summer

[Crunchie]

The only manager who was sacked quickly was Maloney.Ross was here for ages and relatively talking Johnson being here for over a season and getting good backing in 3 transfer windows isn’t a short period of time in the modern world of football management. If we were a trigger happy club regarding managers we had plenty opportunity to sack LJ last season.If you think 2 years was ages it's a sad reflection on where attitudes are in regards to managers being given a fair crack of the whip. That man got us to Hampden a fair few times in 2 years and finished 3rd, some fans were still not happy and he's emptied.

[blackpoolhibs]

Managers at Hibs are not allowed a bad run,in seasons past, a manager could have a bad season and then reset. Even managers with no interest in the bank.Now since the invention of the internet, manager's are not allowed to learn from mistakes made, maybe even mistakes that are not their doing,and now they are hounded out if they have a run of 10-12 games where they are poor, and reaching cup finals don't matter either, even when the replacement whoever that is gets slammed for not getting anywhere near Hampden. Managers these days need to be 3rd and Hampden bound every season,or its not good enough for some.

[JimBHibees]

Managers at Hibs are not allowed a bad run,in seasons past, a manager could have a bad season and then reset. Even managers with no interest in the bank.Now since the invention of the internet, manager's are not allowed to learn from mistakes made, maybe even mistakes that are not their doing,and now they are hounded out if they have a run of 10-12 games where they are poor, and reaching cup finals don't matter either, even when the replacement whoever that is gets slammed for not getting anywhere near Hampden. Managers these days need to be 3rd and Hampden bound every season,or its not good enough for some.

Not wrong. Just society at present everyone has an instant opinion. Days gone past you would go to the game moan about it in the pub then pretty much forget it. Now instant judgements are made and forensically criticised. Everything now. Not particularly healthy imo.

[Crunchie]

Managers at Hibs are not allowed a bad run,in seasons past, a manager could have a bad season and then reset. Even managers with no interest in the bank.Now since the invention of the internet, manager's are not allowed to learn from mistakes made, maybe even mistakes that are not their doing,and now they are hounded out if they have a run of 10-12 games where they are poor, and reaching cup finals don't matter either, even when the replacement whoever that is gets slammed for not getting anywhere near Hampden. Managers these days need to be 3rd and Hampden bound every season,or its not good enough for some.Spot on my friend, today's society in all its glory. I've just seen an article in a paper about how an hour and a half outside can benefit kids eyesight, in my day you couldn't keep me in for an hour and a half.

[blackpoolhibs]

Spot on my friend, today's society in all its glory. I've just seen an article in a paper about how an hour and a half outside can benefit kids eyesight, in my day you couldn't keep me in for an hour and a half.
I'm as guilty as most at criticism of manager's, but I can see the damage that it's doing.

[flash]

Managers at Hibs are not allowed a bad run,in seasons past, a manager could have a bad season and then reset. Even managers with no interest in the bank.Now since the invention of the internet, manager's are not allowed to learn from mistakes made, maybe even mistakes that are not their doing,and now they are hounded out if they have a run of 10-12 games where they are poor, and reaching cup finals don't matter either, even when the replacement whoever that is gets slammed for not getting anywhere near Hampden. Managers these days need to be 3rd and Hampden bound every season,or its not good enough for some.
When you say managers you mean managers with the initials JR presumably BH?
Tried to put a smile emoji after that but it won't let me use them!

[blackpoolhibs]

When you say managers you mean managers with the initials JR presumably BH?

I'm including him, but even LJ,I'm sure he would love to have been backed like he has been from the beginning, but he has been held back by the ludicrous plan of buying for the future and ignoring the now.previous managers too, probably even Maloney as well.

[matty_f]

Managers at Hibs are not allowed a bad run,in seasons past, a manager could have a bad season and then reset. Even managers with no interest in the bank.Now since the invention of the internet, manager's are not allowed to learn from mistakes made, maybe even mistakes that are not their doing,and now they are hounded out if they have a run of 10-12 games where they are poor, and reaching cup finals don't matter either, even when the replacement whoever that is gets slammed for not getting anywhere near Hampden. Managers these days need to be 3rd and Hampden bound every season,or its not good enough for some.

Is this what not accepting mediocrity looks like? A hard and fast “achieve quickly (relatively) or you can’t complain if we pull the trigger”.

Is the rush to show that we won’t tolerate failure going to be the thing that ultimately means we’ll never see anything other than failure with sporadic highlights along the way?

[Springbank]

Early indications are:

If LJ can get Boyle Youan & Vente on the pitch, supported by ALF, there's 3 goals a game there

If LJ persists with all 3 of Marshall, Stevenson & Hanlon we lose 2 or 3 goals (minimum) per game

And LJ has no idea yet what he wants from his midfield

[bingo70]

If you think 2 years was ages it's a sad reflection on where attitudes are in regards to managers being given a fair crack of the whip. That man got us to Hampden a fair few times in 2 years and finished 3rd, some fans were still not happy and he's emptied.

We are talking about it in the context of potentially putting managers off coming to us.

If a prospective manager didn’t want to come to us because they were worried they might only get 2 and a bit years or even the time LJ has had then I’d suggest they’re probably not the right person for us.

The idea of managers getting years to implement a long term strategy are a thing of the past, rightly or wrongly. Any manager needs to find a way of achieving short term success. If they do that then they’ll get head hunted for a bigger job, if they don’t they won’t last long.

I don’t know the average term for a premier league manager however I suspect it won’t be as much as 2 years so the idea that would put someone off joining us is wrong IMO. We’re not exactly Watford.

I also think the general perception of LJ from non Hibs fans is that they’re not impressed by him and he’s not doing a great job, that’s what I’ve picked up from speaking to folk and what I’ve seen online, others may disagree. Reason that is relevant is I think other managers will fancy their chances on improving on his record. I also don’t think the club would be held in a bad light for making a change.

[Crunchie]

Is this what not accepting mediocrity looks like? A hard and fast “achieve quickly (relatively) or you can’t complain if we pull the trigger”. Is the rush to show that we won’t tolerate failure going to be the thing that ultimately means we’ll never see anything other than failure with sporadic highlights along the way?If a manager has proved he can manage, which JR most definitely did then he deserves to be forgiven a sticky patch.

[007]

I’m the opposite I think a lot of managers would fancy themselves and think with backing like hibs have been given out in terms of finances.

He could be the manager to get us steadily challenging for third and cups.

I’d be all over mcinnes.

Yes a lot of managers would fancy the Hibs job but mostly out of work managers or managers at a lower level and inexperienced. Someone with the experience/track record like and in a job like McInnes is an entirely different matter. You might be all over him but I highly doubt he'd reciprocate.

[Nutmegged]

Except that he was the man in charge when we were getting all these draws and he’s still blaming the players.

There are mountains of folk sick fed up of LJ doing that right now.

I don't think he was moaning about drawing games, I think he was complaining about the players reactions to drawing games, that was his main issue.

[007]

The only manager who was sacked quickly was Maloney.

Ross was here for ages and relatively talking Johnson being here for over a season and getting good backing in 3 transfer windows isn’t a short period of time in the modern world of football management. If we were a trigger happy club regarding managers we had plenty opportunity to sack LJ last season.

Yes, the board stuck by LJ when some were clamouring for him to be sacked. Some have been clamouring for him to be sacked since the loss in Andorra, however we are still in Europe and are 2 league games into the season. Sacking LJ would be perceived as too soon this season, given what we backed him through before and would be considered irratic behaviour by the board.

[J-C]

I don't think he was moaning about drawing games, I think he was complaining about the players reactions to drawing games, that was his main issue.

Exactly the point I was making in my earlier posts, yes Lennon had a lot of draws which he was unhappy with but the players in the main were happy with many of them, that mentality needs changed.

[J-C]

Yes, the board stuck by LJ when some were clamouring for him to be sacked. Some have been clamouring for him to be sacked since the loss in Andorra, however we are still in Europe and are 2 league games into the season. Sacking LJ would be perceived as too soon this season, given what we backed him through before and would be considered irratic behaviour by the board.

And many others would see that large backing, 2 league losses and a loss to part timers as a reason to get rid, there is no noticable improvement from last season.

[Daily Hibs]

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread, but I thought it deserved one of it's own. Whether you would want him back or not, I think Lennon is spot on with his observations on Hibs. Also an interesting reflection on his time at the club in a football Scotland article. https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/lee-johnson-gone-hibs-lose-27521274?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target'Neil Lennon knows all about what it's like to be in that pressurised hot seat at Easter Road, initially improving their fortunes before things turned sour and he left them lying eighth in the Premiership.He's spoken about how he set about bringing up the mentality at the club when he took over and how he's not sure how things are behind the scenes now.He said: "I think the players at the minute are inexperienced to play European football and then come again at the weekend. They've got to find that balance. Consistency is the key word for me at the minute, he's not getting it either in results or performances."There would be times I would be going nuts at them and they didn't get it. Drawing games and I would be really unhappy with them and they would be thinking 'this is a good result'. But ultimately it cost us finishing second or third."I think it's a good club but what is there reason to be at the minute? Is it to finish third behind Celtic and Rangers, get to a cup final, be the top team in Edinburgh, take points of Celtic and Rangers?"Every season that should be their reason to be but I'm not sure if that's the mentality at the minute."Absolutely spot on from Neil Lennon. He gave us the most enjoyable season in recent times where we feared no one.

[Hibbyradge]

We are an appealing club for a lot of reasons but the huge elephant in the room are the fans and the potential quick sacking. At McInnes's stage of career and life I highly doubt he'd fancy it.

Given that managers have contracts and are given payouts when they're sacked, is the possibility of an early sacking so off putting?

For example, Chelsea are on their 5th manager since 2021 and are still able to attract top candidates who would easily get jobs elsewhere.

I doubt McInnes would come to us, but I doubt it would be because of the fear of getting sacked.

[Nutmegged]

I've always looked at McInnes as more of a Hearts type of manager than a Hibs gaffer.

[Centre Hawf]

Given that managers have contracts and are given payouts when they're sacked, is the possibility of an early sacking so off putting?For example, Chelsea are on their 5th manager since 2021 and are still able to attract top candidates who would easily get jobs elsewhere.I doubt McInnes would come to us, but I doubt it would be because of the fear of getting sacked.Managers nowadays (especially at our level) are starting to see the payouts getting smaller and smaller I believe. Heard a few times that in some places it's not uncommon to see break clauses in some contracts where at certain points it's either zero pay out or just a month or two. I'm all but sure that if we sacked Lee tonight that he won't get 3 years worth of payment. Probably a few weeks or months worth up front to piss off.

[Donegal Hibby]

And many others would see that large backing, 2 league losses and a loss to part timers as a reason to get rid, there is no noticable improvement from last season.The loss to part timers was rectified in the 2nd leg when we absolutely battered them . The first game for 70 minutes we were s**** though after that I thought we fought back and looked like we were going to win it before being hit on the break . Our 2nd game we were just poor in and there's no denying that .As to no noticeable improvement there as been since he was appointed imo considering the complete mess we were in at the time. This season we have a lot of new players who probably need sometime to settle in , others who are coming back from injury that are getting up to speed. I still think we will do ok this season TBH and imo it's away to early to start judging us after only two games in all honesty.

[bingo70]

Yes, the board stuck by LJ when some were clamouring for him to be sacked. Some have been clamouring for him to be sacked since the loss in Andorra, however we are still in Europe and are 2 league games into the season. Sacking LJ would be perceived as too soon this season, given what we backed him through before and would be considered irratic behaviour by the board.

Yeah, as much as I’ve got my reservations about LJ I wouldn’t sack him just now. I don’t think he will turn it around but he has earned the right to do so by qualifying for Europe and beating Luzern.

I’m sure we’ll beat Raith, I think we’ll beat Livingston and our season will hopefully kick on from there, regardless of what happens tonight.

If we don’t get success in the next 3 games then the pressure will be huge and it would be hard to argue with it.

[I'm Spartacus]

Given that managers have contracts and are given payouts when they're sacked, is the possibility of an early sacking so off putting?For example, Chelsea are on their 5th manager since 2021 and are still able to attract top candidates who would easily get jobs elsewhere.I doubt McInnes would come to us, but I doubt it would be because of the fear of getting sacked.Regardless if folk are sacked after a year in charge, the length of the contract will be paid (I'm assuming that's how it works), so a quick sacking shouldn't put people off I wouldn't think, they'll get their wedge regardless.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Yeah, as much as I’ve got my reservations about LJ I wouldn’t sack him just now. I don’t think he will turn it around but he has earned the right to do so by qualifying for Europe and beating Luzern.

I’m sure we’ll beat Raith, I think we’ll beat Livingston and our season will hopefully kick on from there, regardless of what happens tonight.

If we don’t get success in the next 3 games then the pressure will be huge and it would be hard to argue with it.

A knock out tonight and the Livi game becomes a must win or he should be gone imo.

Good chance that would already leave us chasing a decent gap to 3rd place if we lost that one.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Managers at Hibs are not allowed a bad run,in seasons past, a manager could have a bad season and then reset. Even managers with no interest in the bank.Now since the invention of the internet, manager's are not allowed to learn from mistakes made, maybe even mistakes that are not their doing,and now they are hounded out if they have a run of 10-12 games where they are poor, and reaching cup finals don't matter either, even when the replacement whoever that is gets slammed for not getting anywhere near Hampden. Managers these days need to be 3rd and Hampden bound every season,or its not good enough for some.

I know what you’re saying and managers do need time to implement their ideas and get their team to how they want it to be, but challenging for third and playing at Hampden at least once a season is the bare minimum I expect from a club the size of Hibs. That might come across as being entitled/arrogant and disrespectful to smaller clubs than us but there really isn’t any excuse when you see the difference in purchasing power we have to everyone other than the OF, Hertz and the sheep.


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[Since452]

I genuinely think we'll be in the mix for 3rd this season if Lee remains. We were in the mix right up until a few games before the end of last season and that was with all the injuries, poor VAR calls and horrible summer transfer window that had to be sorted out in January. Starting the season with two defeats is ***** in anyone's book but with our squad we wont be far away come May.

[HibeeSince85]

Regardless if folk are sacked after a year in charge, the length of the contract will be paid (I'm assuming that's how it works), so a quick sacking shouldn't put people off I wouldn't think, they'll get their wedge regardless.

No club is sacking an underperforming manager with a full pay off. Most will offer a few months salary, it's written into their employment contract. Apparently one of the reasons Michael Appleton turned down the job a few years back.

[Bushwoof]

I do wish the fans, or at least that section of them, would take a break from the constant clamour to sack the manager every couple of games. It's difficult to foresee any point in the future where we're going to have a chance to win the league, so with so little at stake, why all the wailing and gnashing of teeth?OK, I understand that a lot of people care passionately about the club and are desperate for success, but it's an easier life if you just relax and go along to the games for the excitement and the entertainment. And since we're never going to be able to win the league, what does it matter if we lose a few games, as long as they're entertaining. And that's where NL succeeded, at least for a while, as does LJ to an extent, and where JR totally failed.I don't think I'd want NL back after the way he left, but I'd happily have another manager in the same style. Maybe LJ can be that man.