Last Hibs manager to become a success after being given time

[Edina Street]

I can't think of one.

Hugh Shaw - Experienced success almost instantly
Jock Stein - Instant hit
Eddie Turnbull - Noticable improvement straight away
Alex McLeish - Noticable improvement straight away. Slightly bad start to the 1st Division season, but put right fairly quickly
Tony Mowbray - Vast improvement instantly
John Hughes - Huge improvement instantly, though suffered an inexplicable decline during the second half of his first season
Neil Lennon - Success in first season
Jack Ross - Instant improvement, suffered a decline the following season

So where does this belief that a manager requires time to become a success come from? Looking through Hibernian's history there appears to be no sufficient evidence of this. All Hibernian managers that experienced success, showed signs of improvement right from the start.

Perhaps those that wish to defend their belief that managers require time may point to Alex Miller or Alan Stubbs as evidence? Or perhaps point to Alex Ferguson who was a non Hibs man, and is only one example that is out numbered by the overwhelming vast majority of examples that would suggest that if a manager is going to be a success, in most cases this will be evident from the start.

[jacomo]

Stubbs struggled to get things going until September. Mind you he was rebuilding the entire squad just about.

Unfortunately that gave Hearts a head start in the league that they never relinquished - our form from October onwards pretty much matched them.

[Edina Street]

Stubbs struggled to get things going until September. Mind you he was rebuilding the entire squad just about.

Unfortunately that gave Hearts a head start in the league that they never relinquished - our form from October onwards pretty much matched them.

I would argue that puting things right within two months does not meet the criteria of becoming a success only after being given time. It seems that Alan Stubbs was another successful Hibernian manager who asserted himself fairly quickly into his tenure.

What this means to me, is that after Lee Johnson being given the benefit of the doubt for all of last season, and then all of the summer to build his own squad, and now requiring yet more time for his own squad to gel, this means that if after all this, Lee Johnson goes on to finally win over the Hibernian supporters and becomes considered a success, he will go into the history books of becoming the first ever manager in the history of Hibernian Football Club to become a success after a prolonged spell of mediocrity. That, when you think about it, just emphasises the task and tall order ahead of Lee Johnson.

I am not saying that Lee Johnson should be sacked or resign, I am saying, that anyone arguing that Lee Johnson should be given yet more time for his own squad to gel, are asking and expecting Lee Johnson to become the "first" and "only" manager in the history of Hibernian FC to change things around so dramatically.

[Smartie]

Alex Miller?

Was under pressure at various points, won a cup, never got relegated throughout some of our toughest times and then got his best team together a few years after we win the cup and after having been in position for some time?

[Edina Street]

Alex Miller?

Was under pressure at various points, won a cup, never got relegated throughout some of our toughest times and then got his best team together a few years after we win the cup and after having been in position for some time?

Possibly.

However it took Alex Miller three seasons into his tenure before he showed any major signs of improvement. Even then, this improvement was just getting Hibs into Europe with a mid-table finish, and the only reason a mid-table finish was good enough to get us into the UEFA cup was because we had a couple of extra places available due to the English clubs being banned from European competition. Alex Miller was unable to build on this, nor even sustain this, the following season, and the season after Hibernian might have found themselves relegated if it were not for the fact that St Mirren were even worse than us, and the SFA done away with relegation that year to change the league set up to twelve teams. Alex Miller did get the benefit of the doubt though, due to the mitigating factors involved concerning the situation with Wallace Mercer, and he did incredibly well to lift the Skol Cup so soon after this episode. He managed to keep Hibernian consistently playing at a slightly higher level than they had been used to during the 80's, with his best ever league finish being 3rd, where he got to take advantage of one of Celtic's worsed ever seasons, but still failed to finish ahead of Motherwell, and did not secure European football. Hibernian went on a decline after that.

I am not sure that Alex Miller could be defined as a success however. Having to wait three years for a slight improvement is not my idea of giving a manager time. That would be giving him the duration of his entire contract. Due to the lack of longevity associated with Human-beings only living for 77/78 years on average, we require managers to show signs of improvement far quicker than this, if we ever want to see the fruits of this success that they tell us they will bring to the club, "if we give them time".

[Crunchie]

I can't think of one.

Hugh Shaw - Experienced success almost instantly
Jock Stein - Instant hit
Eddie Turnbull - Noticable improvement straight away
Alex McLeish - Noticable improvement straight away. Slightly bad start to the 1st Division season, but put right fairly quickly
Tony Mowbray - Vast improvement instantly
John Hughes - Huge improvement instantly, though suffered an inexplicable decline during the second half of his first season
Neil Lennon - Success in first season
Jack Ross - Instant improvement, suffered a decline the following season

So where does this belief that a manager requires time to become a success? Looking through Hibernian's history there appears to be no sufficient evidence of this. All Hibernian managers that experienced success, showed signs of improvement right from the start.

Perhaps those that wish to defend their belief that managers require time may point to Alex Miller or Alan Stubbs as evidence? Or perhaps point to Alex Ferguson who was a non Hibs man, and is only one example that is out numbered by the overwhelming vast majority of examples that would suggest that if a manager is going to be a success, in most cases this will be evident from the start.
No manager at Hibs will EVER have a successful season every time if he's here long enough, people are being way too optimistic. You could put the best manager in the world in the job and I'd say the same about him, it's just unrealistic to think otherwise.
I still say Jack Ross was our best hope of stability for a while and the boo boy brigade saw to him despite getting us to cup finals.

[lyonhibs]

Possibly.

However it took Alex Miller three seasons into his tenure before he showed any major signs of improvement. Even then, this improvement was just getting Hibs into Europe with a mid-table finish, and the only reason a mid-table finish was good enough to get us into the UEFA cup was because we had a couple of extra places available due to the English clubs being banned from European competition. Alex Miller was unable to build on this, nor even sustain this, the following season, and the season after Hibernian might have found themselves relegated if it were not for the fact that St Mirren were even worse than us, and the SFA done away with relegation that year to change the league set up to twelve teams. Alex Miller did get the benefit of the doubt though, due to the mitigating factors involved concerning the situation with Wallace Mercer, and he did incredibly well to lift the Skol Cup so soon after this episode. He managed to keep Hibernian consistently playing at a slightly higher level than they had been used to during the 80's, with his best ever league finish being 3rd, where he got to take advantage of one of Celtic's worsed ever seasons, but still failed to finish ahead of Motherwell, and did not secure European football. Hibernian went on a decline after that.

I am not sure that Alex Miller could be defined as a success however. Having to wait three years for a slight improvement is not my idea of giving a manager time. That would be giving him the duration of his entire contract. Due to the lack of longevity associated with Human-beings only living for 77/78 years on average, we require managers to show signs of improvement far quicker than this, if we ever want to see the fruits of this success that they tell us they will bring to the club, "if we give them time".

One of the oddest things I've ever read on here. That we need instant success from someone in their 40's because average life expectancy is 78? What's the connection?

I think LJ will be gone by about Christmas and won't shed a tear if/when it happens but the highlighted phrase did make me laugh.

[Silky]

I can't think of one.

Hugh Shaw - Experienced success almost instantly
Jock Stein - Instant hit
Eddie Turnbull - Noticable improvement straight away
Alex McLeish - Noticable improvement straight away. Slightly bad start to the 1st Division season, but put right fairly quickly
Tony Mowbray - Vast improvement instantly
John Hughes - Huge improvement instantly, though suffered an inexplicable decline during the second half of his first season
Neil Lennon - Success in first season
Jack Ross - Instant improvement, suffered a decline the following season

So where does this belief that a manager requires time to become a success? Looking through Hibernian's history there appears to be no sufficient evidence of this. All Hibernian managers that experienced success, showed signs of improvement right from the start.

Perhaps those that wish to defend their belief that managers require time may point to Alex Miller or Alan Stubbs as evidence? Or perhaps point to Alex Ferguson who was a non Hibs man, and is only one example that is out numbered by the overwhelming vast majority of examples that would suggest that if a manager is going to be a success, in most cases this will be evident from the start.

What do we define as giving time? A lot of the managers mentioned had an impact then faded. Lots of Instant improvement then decline. If these guys made an instant improvement, could they to use the words in the thread title, stop the decline if "given time". I don't think managers become bad over night, and we've had loads in the last 15/20 years. When the decline inevitably happens, there seems to be no appetite for the incumbent to be allowed to hang around to rectify it. Giving time is not something we do, really since Alex Miller.

Given that, I think the only example I can think of a "Hibs manager to become a success after being given time" is him. Skol Cup, europe, punched above our weight a few times. I say this as I would say no manager since has been "given time". For me 12, 18 months isn't "giving time", so I'm not sure there is ever going to be a Hibs manager who fits that bracket.

[Since452]

Stubbs springs to might straight away. I'd have been happy to see Lennon emptied after his first season as well. 14 draws in a poor championship with the best midfield in Scotland.

[Waxy]

I’m getting to the stage that i’m fed up us not giving managers more time.
It’s just adding to the pressure and has to have a bearing on results.

[ScottB]

It’s kind of a myth, isn’t it? Largely because of the anecdote that Fergie was one game from the sack before going on to achieve everything that he did.

I’d say after a season, you can make a judgement, maybe longer if the manager is a rookie, maybe less if they aren’t.

In Lee’s case, is the last year pretty representative of how the time he had at previous clubs went? Seems like it. Do we appear to be on any sort of upward trajectory or signs of a noticeable change with how it’s gone so far? No.

Lee is an experienced guy, he’s not a rookie with loads of untapped potential, this is who he is and he isn’t likely to change or act noticeably different from here on out.

[allezsauzee]

Lee Johnson? I think people are forgetting how grim the team was the season before he took over. Averaging about a shot on target per game and relegation form under Maloney. The team is inconsistent admittedly but funny how no-one ever attributes that to the players themselves.

[ScottB]

Arguably Lee’s biggest problem, which makes him a rather divisive subject, is that he’s not a failure like, say, Butcher, that we could all agree on. I’m sure if we keep him for the year, we’ll probably be in the top 6. He’s very middle of the road, we’re not likely to full on implode under him, but we’re not likely to excel either on the evidence so far.

Which tends to be our issue really, what we want is a manager that can really push on and deliver, perhaps more than what the team is capable of on paper and grab that third place or cup, but what we end up with more often than not is a guy who just isn’t good enough for that, without being so bad that it’s a no brainer to move on.

[Since452]

Lee Johnson? I think people are forgetting how grim the team was the season before he took over. Averaging about a shot on target per game and relegation form under Maloney. The team is inconsistent admittedly but funny how no-one ever attributes that to the players themselves.

:agree: The manager always gets the blame, not the players who don't listen to instructions, miss place passes and make school boy defensive errors. Does the manager tell them to go out there and do that? Some of these players need to take some of the flack. Some of these players have a track record for it over multiple years. If i was to blame the manager for anything it would be for continuing to pick them. He isn't helping himself by putting trust in some of them.

[Paulie Walnuts]

:agree: The manager always gets the blame, not the players who don't listen to instructions, miss place passes and make school boy defensive errors. Does the manager tell them to go out there and do that? Some of these players need to take some of the flack.

What instructions are the players not listening to?

[Since452]

What instructions are the players not listening to?

LJ said in his post game interview that he didn't want them shelling the ball up to Doidge all the time. They're clearly not listening.

[Paulie Walnuts]

LJ said in his post game interview that he didn't want them shelling the ball up to Doidge all the time. They're clearly not listening.

He absolves himself of blame every week. I’m not buying it.

He put out a team with 5 defenders, 3 centre mids and two strikers. We had no wide men on the park and no pace up top. The only way that team was ever going to play was by getting the ball up to Doidge and it was him who sent that team out.

[JohnM1875]

LJ said in his post game interview that he didn't want them shelling the ball up to Doidge all the time. They're clearly not listening.

And you honestly believe that? Of course they've been told to do that or he'd be making changes to stop it happening. He's a liar.

[easty]

LJ said in his post game interview that he didn't want them shelling the ball up to Doidge all the time. They're clearly not listening.

:agree:

We've got guys in this team capable of good football, Johnson had Bristol City playing good football, so you have to assume he's not a long ball merchant style manager.

[easty]

And you honestly believe that? Of course they've been told to do that or he'd be making changes to stop it happening. He's a liar.

What changes? You can coach as much as you want, but when the players are out on the pitch they have to make decisions for themselves.

I doubt his instructions to the defence (Lewis and Fish) were to let themselves be rag-dolled at the back to concede both the goals.

[JohnM1875]

What changes? You can coach as much as you want, but when the players are out on the pitch they have to make decisions for themselves.

I doubt his instructions to the defence (Lewis and Fish) were to let themselves be rag-dolled at the back to concede both the goals.

Defenders got ripped and were poor. Never going to debate that with anyone. But he's(LJ) talking absolute ***** by saying he didn't want us going long to Doidge

[easty]

Defenders got ripped and were poor. Never going to debate that with anyone. But he's(LJ) talking absolute ***** by saying he didn't want us going long to Doidge

If you say so.

[jeffers]

Lee Johnson? I think people are forgetting how grim the team was the season before he took over. Averaging about a shot on target per game and relegation form under Maloney. The team is inconsistent admittedly but funny how no-one ever attributes that to the players themselves.

This keeps getting brought up and I keep responding with the same reply. I’m not defending Maloney but what did he have to work with in an attacking sense ? James Scott, Drey Wright and Sylvester Jasper. I’d loved to have seen how well Johnson would have done if he only had those players at his disposal.

[Paulie Walnuts]

This keeps getting brought up and I keep responding with the same reply. I’m not defending Maloney but what did he have to work with in an attacking sense ? James Scott, Drey Wright and Sylvester Jasper. I’d loved to have seen how well Johnson would have done if he only had those players at his disposal.

:agree:

I’ve said it previously but I genuinely don’t think Maloneys time at Hibs tells us anything about him as a manager. With the players he had at his disposal I’m not convinced any manager within our budget would have done much better.

He took over a one man team and then lost that one man within a couple of games, a couple of games in which we actually looked decent.

[jeffers]

:agree:

I’ve said it previously but I genuinely don’t think Maloneys time at Hibs tells us anything about him as a manager. With the players he had at his disposal I’m not convinced any manager within our budget would have done much better.

He took over a one man team and then lost that one man within a couple of games.

I’ve not been following his time at Wigan, maybe he just doesn’t have it as a manager, but we appointed him at the wrong time then basically hamstrung him. He said himself he knew early on it wasn’t what he signed up for.

[Unseen work]

What instructions are the players not listening to?

His defenders not getting bullied for one would be a start.

Stevenson and fish having two individual errors cost that game and there’s nothing LJ could do about that

The game was rubbish and we were brutal, LJ needs to take responsibility for that. But the goals and majority of goals we’ve conceded so far? Really poor individual errors.

[Onion]

I’m getting to the stage that i’m fed up us not giving managers more time.
It’s just adding to the pressure and has to have a bearing on results.

Just as tired of sorry excuses from "managers" needing time, showing little progress and bleating in the press about his team having a "weak disposition". He's had money and summer to address that. If that is a problem, LJ has to own it.

Saying that, LJ is just the result of continuing poor performance of the Hibs Board in selecting managers. A monkey with a pin and using law of averages would do a better job :greengrin

[Viva_Palmeiras]

No manager at Hibs will EVER have a successful season every time if he's here long enough, people are being way too optimistic. You could put the best manager in the world in the job and I'd say the same about him, it's just unrealistic to think otherwise.
I still say Jack Ross was our best hope of stability for a while and the boo boy brigade saw to him despite getting us to cup finals.

same reason MacInnes is IMO gonna come unstuck should he take up the baton.

[KWJ]

So what's your counter to it? Who has failed when given time? Miller and Turnbull both come back into play.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

To give time or not give time that is the question…

Remember it was not so long ago that Aberdeen were a basketcase of a club. A revolving door after ditching “Smithy must go” after taking them within a ba’s hair of winning the title…

I think part of the answer is having a director of football type person who is competent and overseas a period of continuity. We had that then ripped up the blueprint and seemingly went for players with stats over character. We need to ditch that and get the balance right. We also need managers who first and foremost get a tune out of players at their disposal over some system that needs to be followed regardless.

[Ozyhibby]

People talk about Stubbs but he underperformed massively in the league the whole time he was here. The Scottish Cup will forever cover that up and nobody cares now but the reality is that Stubbs failed in his main objective. In his last season he became the only Hibs manager to finish below Falkirk in the league in my life time and then promptly lost a two leg play off v them. With the squad he had, that’s a criminal failure and would likely have seen him sacked but we had a big game that week.
A week later he becomes only Hibs manager in 114 years to lift the Scottish so he’ll forever be a legend but let’s not kid ourselves on, he failed in league big time.


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[thebausburst]

People talk about Stubbs but he underperformed massively in the league the whole time he was here. The Scottish Cup will forever cover that up and nobody cares now but the reality is that Stubbs failed in his main objective. In his last season he became the only Hibs manager to finish below Falkirk in the league in my life time and then promptly lost a two leg play off v them. With the squad he had, that’s a criminal failure and would likely have seen him sacked but we had a big game that week.
A week later he becomes only Hibs manager in 114 years to lift the Scottish so he’ll forever be a legend but let’s not kid ourselves on, he failed in league big time.


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That’s a very selective view, leaves out he was in a championship that had Hearts and Rangers in it, we played 60 odd games as he made both, yes BOTH, main cup tournaments and was robbed of the league cup by a Ross County break away. Team were also very attractive to watch and would piss all over this LG side.

[Ozyhibby]

That’s a very selective view, leaves out he was in a championship that had Hearts and Rangers in it, we played 60 odd games as he made both, yes BOTH, main cup tournaments and was robbed of the league cup by a Ross County break away. Team were also very attractive to watch and would piss all over this LG side.

2nd season didn’t have Hearts. Just as well because he couldn’t get ahead of Falkirk.


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[jacomo]

People talk about Stubbs but he underperformed massively in the league the whole time he was here. The Scottish Cup will forever cover that up and nobody cares now but the reality is that Stubbs failed in his main objective. In his last season he became the only Hibs manager to finish below Falkirk in the league in my life time and then promptly lost a two leg play off v them. With the squad he had, that’s a criminal failure and would likely have seen him sacked but we had a big game that week.
A week later he becomes only Hibs manager in 114 years to lift the Scottish so he’ll forever be a legend but let’s not kid ourselves on, he failed in league big time.


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His first season was about picking Hibs off the canvas. Our league form from October was very decent but a slow start (kinda understandable as we bedded in a new team) killed us.

Second season we fell just short in the league, mostly because of key injuries and two cup runs. No one’s kidding anyone, except perhaps folk who like to rewrite history.

[Ozyhibby]

His first season was about picking Hibs off the canvas. Our league form from October was very decent but a slow start (kinda understandable as we bedded in a new team) killed us.

Second season we fell just short in the league, mostly because of key injuries and two cup runs. No one’s kidding anyone, except perhaps folk who like to rewrite history.

What did I re-write? Our budget dwarfed Falkirk’s and Stubbs was outdone by Houston. That’s a fact.


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[Paulie Walnuts]

His first season was about picking Hibs off the canvas. Our league form from October was very decent but a slow start (kinda understandable as we bedded in a new team) killed us.

Second season we fell just short in the league, mostly because of key injuries and two cup runs. No one’s kidding anyone, except perhaps folk who like to rewrite history.

:agree:

[jacomo]

What did I re-write? Our budget dwarfed Falkirk’s and Stubbs was outdone by Houston. That’s a fact.


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We fell short of automatic promotion and - yes - then got done over in the play off. There were reasons for all that… you can accept those reasons or not, but don’t accuse those who respected the job Stubbs did as kidding themselves or anyone else.

He was clearly leaving anyhow, but if we hadn’t won the Cup I still would have been happy for Stubbs to have a third season. You don’t have to agree, but I’m not rewriting history.

[SaulGoodman]

I don’t get this whole give a manager time thing.

If they’ve proven themselves like Jack Ross did and then go on a bad run, yes, give them time to see if they correct it.

If it looks **** and a lost cause from the start like Butcher, Maloney, Johnson..? It’s not going to get better.

If you sign a player and he puts in sub par performances week after week for a year you’ll sign a replacement. Don’t see why managers would be different.

[judas]

Stubbs springs to might straight away. I'd have been happy to see Lennon emptied after his first season as well. 14 draws in a poor championship with the best midfield in Scotland.

This.

Stubbs squad was growing and improving and Lennon inherited that trajectory.

[judas]

Stubbs springs to might straight away. I'd have been happy to see Lennon emptied after his first season as well. 14 draws in a poor championship with the best midfield in Scotland.

This.

Stubbs squad was growing and improving and Lennon inherited that trajectory.

[Is It On....]

Alex Miller?

Was under pressure at various points, won a cup, never got relegated throughout some of our toughest times and then got his best team together a few years after we win the cup and after having been in position for some time?

I don't know if I am in the minority here but I thought Miller was a very mediocre manager. The football was turgid to watch and the fact that other subsequent managers have heen worse than him doesn't, in my opinion, make him a good manager.

[jeffers]

I don't know if I am in the minority here but I thought Miller was a very mediocre manager. The football was turgid to watch and the fact that other subsequent managers have heen worse than him doesn't, in my opinion, make him a good manager.

He had spells and built two good sides but boy it was grim at times.

[Crunchie]

We fell short of automatic promotion and - yes - then got done over in the play off. There were reasons for all that… you can accept those reasons or not, but don’t accuse those who respected the job Stubbs did as kidding themselves or anyone else.He was clearly leaving anyhow, but if we hadn’t won the Cup I still would have been happy for Stubbs to have a third season. You don’t have to agree, but I’m not rewriting history.Oz, lives in a black and white world with no grey in between, like you say there were reasons for some of our poor league form, having our best players on International duty and cup runs the main factor I'd say. He took over a basket case of a club with no players and finished second above Rangers, an achievement he never likes to acknowledge but bangs on about finishing behind Falkirk in a season in which we reached 2 cup finals and won the holy grail, he's not worth discussing Stubbsy with his blinkered viewpoint.

[Musselbound]

I don't know if I am in the minority here but I thought Miller was a very mediocre manager. The football was turgid to watch and the fact that other subsequent managers have heen worse than him doesn't, in my opinion, make him a good manager.

In the modern game he would never have been given time, never mind at Hibs. Took at least five years to build a decent side. The late 80s stuff was terrible to watch and so were Hibs league positions.