Latest assisted dying legislation in Canada

[He's here!]

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/anorexia-woman-assisted-death-canada-law-b2377969.html

Haven't seen much coverage of this recent change, but since 2016 when only the terminally ill were legally entitled to assisted dying in Canada things have moved quite quickly to include non-terminal illnesses and, now, those for whom mental illness is at the heart of their desire to bring their life to an end.

It's hard not to have conflicting feelings about this and to wonder where it's ultimately heading.

[archie]

I posted this about six months ago. I hope it adds to the discussion.

I have wanted to open this up for debate for a while, but have been hesitant for a number of reasons. I know it's been discussed before, but I'm conscious that there are really strongly held views on the issue. That's not a reason to avoid the discussion, but unlike other topics here, there will be a lot of deeply personal feelings and experiences that maybe don't lend themselves to Holy Ground knock about. But over the new year period I read this article that really seemed to capture where my thinking is: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rom-the-malign

When I was younger, I thought it was unbelievably cruel to force people to stay alive when they found it unbearable and couldn't end their lives themselves and the consequences for people who helped them were severe. I can still see that argument, but as I got older, I increasingly have doubts about the issue. I don't know whether that's because you become more aware of your mortality as I get older or simply it's easier to have unquestionable certainties when you are young.

A number of things have moved my thinking on this. And just to be clear, it's not a religious issue for me.

As I get older I'm much more sensitised to issues that involve ending life. It's such a precious thing that I can't easily agree to options that involve ending life. It might be embarrassingly idealistic, but I can't feel comfortable in a society where assisted dying is part of a suite of care options. I'm not naive. I watched by own mother die and her last few days were excruciating. This was partly because the hospital was concerned not to send her over the edge and so took time get the meds right. Her last day was very peaceful and it's that I hold on to. But it didn't make me think she should have been given drugs to end her life, not least because it's not what she would have wanted.

But what if it is what someone wants? Why not agree to their wishes? Again, it's not as straightforward as it appears. There is talk of living wills where someone says they would rather die than go through the end stages of dementia. But how do we know what they thought 10 years ago represents what they might think now? We can't ask them. Also, the pressures on older people (often self-imposed) to avoid being a burden as very strong. I knew a consultant who worked with older people. They told me that the biggest question they were asked was 'can you not just give me a blue pill'. This wasn't always due to pain. In one case they thought the estate would help grandkids buy a house.

And that's where I hit my biggest concern. When I was younger I would have dismissed the slippery slope argument out of hand. But looking at the application of assisted dying laws elsewhere, it does seem to have moved on from what I think most people would envisage it for. I assumed the focus was on people who found end of life excruciatingly painful or humiliating. But in holland we have cases where the justification for an assisted suicide is a person's mental illness. To me that's the very case where it shouldn't be allowed. I was also troubled by the case of Daniel James who was taken to Dignitas at 24 after a tragic rugby injury made him a quadriplegic. Is there nothing we could have offered them? And is Canada really discussing extending assisted suicide to 'mature children'?

So what's the resolution? I'm still supportive of the idea that people should be able to end their life in dignity. But I'm perplexed as to how we do that in a way that respects their rights, but doesn't compromise the rights of other, often vulnerable, people. And a society that doesn't value or support life is not one I feel comfortable with at all.

But, as ever, I welcome thoughts and views.

[He's here!]

Ah, I did think there had been a previous thread on this but I couldn't find it. Perhaps they could be merged.

Re your post, I'm put in mind of a novel I read a long time ago (possibly by Kazuo Isihiguro or Jonathan Coe) in which time travels backwards and we see people being rescued from the Nazi gas chambers. Initially the people being rescued are relatively healthy and able bodied but as we move further back they are increasingly disabled/deformed/unwell and questions start to get asked about whether it's worth rescuing them.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66257865

[Glory Lurker]

As I said to Archie at the time (sook sook!) that thread should turn out to be the best ever in this burgh.

If it moves here, the point is the same. Let's talk about death. It's a terrible subject and it freaks most of us right out but it is universal.

I'm of the "shoot me when I lose it" mentality which informs a robust view to when assisted death should be available but I often stumble when other views are put forward. It's universal but humans have added emotion that physics can't deal with.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

As I said to Archie at the time (sook sook!) that thread should turn out to be the best ever in this burgh.

If it moves here, the point is the same. Let's talk about death. It's a terrible subject and it freaks most of us right out but it is universal.

I'm of the "shoot me when I lose it" mentality which informs a robust view to when assisted death should be available but I often stumble when other views are put forward. It's universal but humans have added emotion that physics can't deal with.

How do you know when you've reached the point where you've lost it? It's usually a transitional phase and isn't something that would just occur instantly. There's also the issue of whether somebody who has lost it can make an informed choice over whether to live or die.

I'm all for people in major chronic physical pain with no chance of recovery making that decision if it's too unbearable to keep going, as long as their faculties are there to understand the decision that they are making.

When it comes to people who are not all there however, it starts to become quite sketchy.

[Glory Lurker]

How do you know when you've reached the point where you've lost it? It's usually a transitional phase and isn't something that would just occur instantly. There's also the issue of whether somebody who has lost it can make an informed choice over whether to live or die.

I'm all for people in major chronic physical pain with no chance of recovery making that decision if it's too unbearable to keep going, as long as their faculties are there to understand the decision that they are making.

When it comes to people who are not all there however, it starts to become quite sketchy.

Fair point. There are certain things that, if I didn't respond or react to, the writing is on the wall. It's easy for me to set out what they are, and off to Switzerland I go. I'd rather leave here, though.

Why shouldn't I have that choice?

It's a discussion I'm not sure we will finish in my lifetime but we need to see it through.

[archie]

As I said to Archie at the time (sook sook!) that thread should turn out to be the best ever in this burgh.

If it moves here, the point is the same. Let's talk about death. It's a terrible subject and it freaks most of us right out but it is universal.

I'm of the "shoot me when I lose it" mentality which informs a robust view to when assisted death should be available but I often stumble when other views are put forward. It's universal but humans have added emotion that physics can't deal with.
I remember you saying that and should have said I appreciated it. It didn't really turn out that way. Not because people don't have views. I think it's just really hard stuff. It's not just our own mortality. It's our family and friends. There's a fundamental contradiction. We want our family and friends to be with us for as long as possible. But the challenges of illness mean that we not only have to contemplate letting them go, but actively accelerating it.

But I do have to try to balance my squeamishness about that with what many people clearly want - that last bit of control in their life.

But I remain deeply troubled by the potential for a slippery slope

[Ozyhibby]

I doubt Scottish politics is grown up enough for this debate. The SG should stay well clear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I doubt Scottish politics is grown up enough for this debate. The SG should stay well clear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We haven't reached the level of genetic programming as of yet.

[archie]

I doubt Scottish politics is grown up enough for this debate. The SG should stay well clear.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guys - please don't.

[archie]

We haven't reached the level of genetic programming as of yet.

Again - please don't.

[Glory Lurker]

The thing about dementia that sets it apart from other terminal illnesses is that it eventually robs the sufferer of the ability to make an informed decision. That can happen years before death.

That is wrong for the sufferer and, more important practically, the family.

While it is obviously important to try to find a cure, we need to talk about it in the current, no-cure, world.

[archie]

The thing about dementia that sets it apart from other terminal illnesses is that it eventually robs the sufferer of the ability to make an informed decision. That can happen years before death.

That is wrong for the sufferer and, more important practically, the family.

While it is obviously important to try to find a cure, we need to talk about it in the current, no-cure, world.
This makes the living will issue difficult. Someone may leave instructions about assisted dying when they are capable to do so. The issue with that is how do we know that a person with dementia feels the same as they did say 10 years earlier? It's very tricky.

[stu in nottingham]

Capacity can fluctuate over the short term and the long term. There can be certain days or even hours where a person has capacity and then loses it. We can lose short-term capacity for reasons like certain mental health problems or taking medication. We can also have different capacity for different things, i.e. people can have the capacity to make certain decisions but not others.

[Paul1642]

I am 100% for the option to end your life if you suffer from a terminally illness, especially one which is already causing you pain or is going to be painful is the near future or remove any quality of life to the stage where you are bed / chair bound.

Where I am a lot more torn is the severe mental heath / suicidal feelings argument. One one hand these are mostly considered curable therefore you are potentially ending a life which could have been retuned to “normal”.

On the other hand I understand that although I’m lucky enough to have absolutely fine mental heath the daily suffering of those affected is potentially just as painful as those with a physical illness.

Then you have the fact that those who are 100% set on committing suicide are going to do it anyway. 753 in Scotland in 2021 and the number is probably a fair bit higher however recorded as unexplained medical or an accident due to no proof of intent.

Whilst you can’t possibly blame an individual in that mindset for their actions that’s 753 deaths with an impact on others, whether that be train drivers who’s train is used as a method, car drivers who’s cars are jumped on front of or the friends, family, police officers or coastguard / lifeboat staff who have to attend the other methods used, some of whom will then have their own difficulties dealing with what they just dealt with. Give a suicidal person a clinical option and it removes this from others.

[He's here!]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/11/canada-cases-right-to-die-laws

[archie]

I am 100% for the option to end your life if you suffer from a terminally illness, especially one which is already causing you pain or is going to be painful is the near future or remove any quality of life to the stage where you are bed / chair bound.

Where I am a lot more torn is the severe mental heath / suicidal feelings argument. One one hand these are mostly considered curable therefore you are potentially ending a life which could have been retuned to “normal”.

On the other hand I understand that although I’m lucky enough to have absolutely fine mental heath the daily suffering of those affected is potentially just as painful as those with a physical illness.

Then you have the fact that those who are 100% set on committing suicide are going to do it anyway. 753 in Scotland in 2021 and the number is probably a fair bit higher however recorded as unexplained medical due to no proof of intent.

Whilst you can’t possibly blame an individual in that mindset for their actions that’s 753 deaths with an impact on others, whether that be train drivers who’s train is used as a method, car drivers who’s cars are jumped on front of or the friends, family, police officers or coastguard / lifeboat staff who have to attend the other methods used, some of whom will then have their own difficulties dealing with what they just dealt with. Give a suicidal person a clinical option and it removes this from others.

I think that's a very interesting point. I have met people who have encountered the aftermath. They didn’t talk about it. I suppose going back to my original post, my fear is that having mental illness or suicidal motivations should probably disbar you. But it's an interesting challenge, should it only be people who feel that physically they can't go on? Tbh I just don’t know the answer.