Violence in schools

[He's here!]

Teenager arrested on suspicion of attempted murder of teacher - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-66151983)

I know a teacher at Johnstone High who said the incident there a couple of months back was extremely alarming, but today's story takes things to a new level.

Union calls for action after teachers hospitalised at Johnstone High School - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65575599)

I think a lot of people would be shocked by the level of fear under which staff operate in many schools, both primary and secondary.

[J-C]

Teenager arrested on suspicion of attempted murder of teacher - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-66151983)

I know a teacher at Johnstone High who said the incident there a couple of months back was extremely alarming, but today's story takes things to a new level.

Union calls for action after teachers hospitalised at Johnstone High School - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65575599)

I think a lot of people would be shocked by the level of fear under which staff operate in many schools, both primary and secondary.
Most of these kids don't fear authority any more, just read all the stories of hooded kids on bikes causing mayhem, or riding around on stolen motorbikes etc. Gone are the days of going out and telling them to clear off, you'll likely to get beaten up or stabbed.

[Del Boy]

Heard of a number of violent incidents at schools in Edinburgh and Midlothian in last year, on a level way above what it was like even 10 years ago.

Teachers tell me that Schools don’t have the resources to deal with badly behaved kids, it takes a lot more now to get excluded and Kids know they can get away with just about anything, and parents leap to the defence of these little ****s.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

(A lot of) kids are pricks. That’s what put me off going into teaching after finishing university, I know what I was like at school and I couldn’t be arsed dealing with myself never mind wee neds that may or may not be carrying ****in weapons. Insane.


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[He's here!]

(A lot of) kids are pricks. That’s what put me off going into teaching after finishing university, I know what I was like at school and I couldn’t be arsed dealing with myself never mind wee neds that may or may not be carrying ****in weapons. Insane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Said it before on here but the SG's 'presumption of mainstreaming' approach (arguably well intentioned but underpinned by cost cutting) whereby a vastly increased number of children with significant additional support needs are attending mainstream schools (which more often than not lack the support to absorb them successfully) is responsible for much of the increased aggression in schools. Not saying that's what's happened in these incidents but school staff are regularly overstretched. As you say a lot of kids can simply behave like eejits, but to stab a teacher...that's terrifying stuff.

[McD]

Heard of a number of violent incidents at schools in Edinburgh and Midlothian in last year, on a level way above what it was like even 10 years ago.

Teachers tell me that Schools don’t have the resources to deal with badly behaved kids, it takes a lot more now to get excluded and Kids know they can get away with just about anything, and parents leap to the defence of these little ****s.


I think in some cases, the teachers expect to get no back up from parents either, it’s almost always someone else’s fault, never their little darling


my daughter has just come to the end of her first year at nursery. My mum picks her up each day, and a few months ago, one of the teaching staff told my mum that my daughter had been misbehaving. Nothing like the kind of thing described earlier in the thread, just a bit of not listening then cheek to the teachers (something she’s very capable of!). My mum says they told her this, and seemed to be expecting my mum to have a go at them, and then seemed relieved when she gave the wee one a row for what she had done. When my wife dropped her off the following morning, she spoke to the staff and reiterated that it wasn’t tolerated by us either, and if she was due a telling off then to do it (nothing extreme, she’s only about to turn 4, but the point was made), and again the staff seemed relieved that we weren’t pointing the finger at them.


I’m not saying we’re perfect by any means, but it does seem to have shifted from when I was a kid. I knew I’d catch all sorts from my folks if I got into bother at school, my limited experience seems to be that the first thing many parents do these days is have a go at the school/teachers, blame everyone and anyone but take little responsibility for establishing behaviours with their own children.

[McD]

Said it before on here but the SG's 'presumption of mainstreaming' approach (arguably well intentioned but underpinned by cost cutting) whereby a vastly increased number of children with significant additional support needs are attending mainstream schools (which more often than not lack the support to absorb them successfully) is responsible for much of the increased aggression in schools. Not saying that's what's happened in these incidents but school staff are regularly overstretched. As you say a lot of kids can simply behave like eejits, but to stab a teacher...that's terrifying stuff.


this is something you’ve said a number of times (completely take your word for it, this isn’t me disagreeing). It must also have a knock on affect on every other pupil, as the already stretched teacher can’t devote the needed time to other kids as they try help those with additional needs, meaning ultimately everyone, including the teachers, are let down.

it’s also not a dig at the snp, as you’ve said, well intentioned.

[H18 SFR]

I’m a PT Guidance, all I’m saying is nothing - wouldn’t know where to start.

[Del Boy]

I think in some cases, the teachers expect to get no back up from parents either, it’s almost always someone else’s fault, never their little darling


my daughter has just come to the end of her first year at nursery. My mum picks her up each day, and a few months ago, one of the teaching staff told my mum that my daughter had been misbehaving. Nothing like the kind of thing described earlier in the thread, just a bit of not listening then cheek to the teachers (something she’s very capable of!). My mum says they told her this, and seemed to be expecting my mum to have a go at them, and then seemed relieved when she gave the wee one a row for what she had done. When my wife dropped her off the following morning, she spoke to the staff and reiterated that it wasn’t tolerated by us either, and if she was due a telling off then to do it (nothing extreme, she’s only about to turn 4, but the point was made), and again the staff seemed relieved that we weren’t pointing the finger at them.


I’m not saying we’re perfect by any means, but it does seem to have shifted from when I was a kid. I knew I’d catch all sorts from my folks if I got into bother at school, my limited experience seems to be that the first thing many parents do these days is have a go at the school/teachers, blame everyone and anyone but take little responsibility for establishing behaviours with their own children.

Absolutely. Unfortunately what you are doing was once the norm now it’s probably the exception. Far too many spoilt brats these days.

[Smartie]

When I was in 5th year at school, some of the 4th years were getting ready to leave. Before they did, a few of them were trying to stake a claim to be the "hardest in the school" before they left and were starting on 5th and 6th years left, right and centre. I remember one or two teachers being surprisingly game about getting stuck in about them to split them up and they weren't necessarily the hardest of the teachers either. It's certainly not the kind of thing you'd catch many getting involved in now.

I don't know where the violence of today relates to the violence of yesteryear but remember there was that headteacher who was murdered at the school gates a few years back? Violence at school isn't a new thing, in many ways it's a rite of passage of sorts.

There should be zero tolerance of violence of any sort and today's news is appalling.

[Sylar]

I've witnessed a few things at University level, but nothing to this extreme (in the UK anyway). That being said, I did have a colleague in the US who was shot dead in his office by a former student after receiving a grade he was unhappy with. Again, an extreme example but the way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me to hear more tales of educational professionals through primary, secondary or tertiary education facing increasing displays/outbursts of violence for numerous reasons.

Scary time to be an educator, but secondary schools definitely seem to be a particularly troublesome environment these days.

[Pretty Boy]

Said it before on here but the SG's 'presumption of mainstreaming' approach (arguably well intentioned but underpinned by cost cutting) whereby a vastly increased number of children with significant additional support needs are attending mainstream schools (which more often than not lack the support to absorb them successfully) is responsible for much of the increased aggression in schools. Not saying that's what's happened in these incidents but school staff are regularly overstretched. As you say a lot of kids can simply behave like eejits, but to stab a teacher...that's terrifying stuff.

It's definitely an issue and I believe there is a fear among those in the profession of saying so.

I know a couple of teaching assistants and they have told me stories about having kids who have extensive sight or hearing loss being shoehorned into mainstream education and it's failing them. My daughter has 2 autistic kids in her class. One of them is coping well (she is going to his birthday party in a few weeks). The other clearly isn't, she has no social skills whatsoever, no friends and can't partake in any of the cooperative tasks. It's a shame for her because she evidently needs support that mainstream schooling just can't provide for her.

Of course we should be aiming for inclusion wherever possible but there are areas in which it just isn't appropriate either for the children involved or their classmates.

More generally some kids have always pushed it but they seem more brazen now. One of my sister's friends is a teacher and she had a little ******* accuse her of hitting him. It was a lie, the headteacher knew it was a lie, everyone involved knew it was a lie but the complaint was made, the parents went all in so she was suspended and had to go through a full investigation. That's part of the problem as well; parents believing their little darlings are butter wouldn't melt. I know my parents only knew the half of what I was ul to so I'm far from naive enough to believe my kids won't be the same. I'll defend them of course but if they cross a line then I'll deal with it.

[He's here!]

this is something you’ve said a number of times (completely take your word for it, this isn’t me disagreeing). It must also have a knock on affect on every other pupil, as the already stretched teacher can’t devote the needed time to other kids as they try help those with additional needs, meaning ultimately everyone, including the teachers, are let down.

it’s also not a dig at the snp, as you’ve said, well intentioned.

Yes, and I'm also not meaning to demean the kids I'm referring to. It's perfectly understandable for a parent to want their child to have as normalised an experience as possible (and there are plenty of kids with ASN for whom integration works well) but sadly there are too many cases where mainstream is not the answer and, as you say, the resultant problems impact across the wider class and drain already stretched resources. When the early influx of ASN kids started to come in, support staff (mostly untrained PSAs) assumed there would be specialised training forthcoming or staff with relevant experience brought in. Instead they were more or less just left to get on with it. In extreme occasions staff end up losing control and I know of one primary school (in a relatively affluent area of Edinburgh) who have recently twice been compelled to call for police assistance.

[LewysGot2]

I've read a number of comments about zero tolerance etc but is it not nigh on impossible to exclude a pupil in Scottish schools any more? Maybe the poster above who is a guidance teacher could carefully confirm or clarify?

I'm pretty sure the Scottish government, enforced by councils, ate closely monitoring exclusions and schools pretty much can't exclude any more? So a zero tolerance approach would be nigh on impossible?

It's not just pupils who are posing threats of violence to staff in schools by all accounts, recently one of the local schools had to ask parents to stay away from the playground at the beginning and end of the day due to threatening behaviour towards staff. It was/is an Edinburgh primary school, reported in the EEN.
I mean, 90+ % of staff in primary schools are female - so what kind of adult thinks this is in any way shape or form acceptable? Wouldn't be acceptable for male staff either BTW but this is a sad reflection of the parenting influencing pupil behaviours.

There are next to no specialist schools for youngsters with behaviour needs (not disability related needs) as they've shut them almost all down - Gorgie Mills is the last one standing in Edinburgh? Was it Swinney who oversaw the legislation about presumption of mainstream? Seem to remember it being launched in a blaze of publicity - how many teachers were involved in its development? Or was it all academics in ivory towers and politicians? Like, folk who've no idea how it is to manage classes of teenagers?
Appreciate it may be difficult for some of those on the thread who work in education to say everything they might want to.

[Glory Lurker]

Yes, and I'm also not meaning to demean the kids I'm referring to. It's perfectly understandable for a parent to want their child to have as normalised an experience as possible (and there are plenty of kids with ASN for whom integration works well) but sadly there are too many cases where mainstream is not the answer and, as you say, the resultant problems impact across the wider class and drain already stretched resources. When the early influx of ASN kids started to come in, support staff (mostly untrained PSAs) assumed there would be specialised training forthcoming or staff with relevant experience brought in. Instead they were more or less just left to get on with it. In extreme occasions staff end up losing control and I know of one primary school (in a relatively affluent area of Edinburgh) who have recently twice been compelled to call for police assistance.

You have experience in education. I don't. I naturally defer to your views to an extent. You maybe don't mean this but I'm reading your comments as suggesting it's ASN kids that are the problem and, predictably of course, SG policy.

[He's here!]

You have experience in education. I don't. I naturally defer to your views to an extent. You maybe don't mean this but I'm reading your comments as suggesting it's ASN kids that are the problem and, predictably of course, SG policy.

I think I've made it clear I don't think kids with ASN are THE problem. There are numerous other factors involved.The policy which sees under-resourced schools striving to fit too many square pegs into round holes needs addressed tho. Bringing up children can be hard but for parents of children with exceptional ASN it's immeasurably more challenging and it can be upsetting to see those parents hoping against hope that their child might find their place within a mainstream school. Experience teaches you, sadly, that certain children only end up posing a danger to themselves and others.

As for the policy, I'm not even sure it came in with the SNP, but whichever SG rolled it out I'd still suggest it needs revisited.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I think I've made it clear I don't think kids with ASN are THE problem. There are numerous other factors involved.The policy which sees under-resourced schools striving to fit too many square pegs into round holes needs addressed tho. Bringing up children can be hard but for parents of children with exceptionally challenging ASN it's immeasurably more challenging and it can be upsetting to see those parents hoping against hope that their child might find their place within a mainstream school. Experience teaches you, sadly, that certain children only end up posing a danger to themselves and others.

As for the policy, I'm not even sure it came in with the SNP, but whichever SG rolled it out I'd still suggest it needs revisited.

To be totally fair to you, (and I don’t say this often [emoji16]) I agree with what you’re saying HH. I’m an SNP/Indy voter as most will be aware, but I also am a young voter who left school in the past decade. In my high school, around when I was a few years from leaving, the local special needs school was closed and the pupils were moved to our school promised they’d be part of mainstream education. This wasn’t the case as they were never in any of our registration classes or anything, they were kept completely separate from “mainstream” students but had the same teachers. These teachers had no training in how to deal with the various different disabilities that these pupils had, it did feel like a ticking time bomb with the pupils frustrated that they hadn’t been delivered what was promised and teachers with no training on to assist children with these additional needs.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I think in some cases, the teachers expect to get no back up from parents either, it’s almost always someone else’s fault, never their little darling


my daughter has just come to the end of her first year at nursery. My mum picks her up each day, and a few months ago, one of the teaching staff told my mum that my daughter had been misbehaving. Nothing like the kind of thing described earlier in the thread, just a bit of not listening then cheek to the teachers (something she’s very capable of!). My mum says they told her this, and seemed to be expecting my mum to have a go at them, and then seemed relieved when she gave the wee one a row for what she had done. When my wife dropped her off the following morning, she spoke to the staff and reiterated that it wasn’t tolerated by us either, and if she was due a telling off then to do it (nothing extreme, she’s only about to turn 4, but the point was made), and again the staff seemed relieved that we weren’t pointing the finger at them.


I’m not saying we’re perfect by any means, but it does seem to have shifted from when I was a kid. I knew I’d catch all sorts from my folks if I got into bother at school, my limited experience seems to be that the first thing many parents do these days is have a go at the school/teachers, blame everyone and anyone but take little responsibility for establishing behaviours with their own children.

Spot on, we've now moved from the generation where some parents could not care a toss as to what their kids get up to at school to the generation where some parents hate school and everything to do with it, especially teachers and that rubs off on the kids.

[Stairway 2 7]

I've put this up before but a thread with newspaper articles going back over 100 years saying kids today are the worst

https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1575610379702796288

A history of kids today are spoilt
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1600628195854020608

A history of children now control their parents
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1648083986143674374

Lighthearted but here's the complete list of threads like men today are too soft, nobody wants to work anymore, music today is rubbish and more
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1573766766723215360

[Hibrandenburg]

I've put this up before but a thread with newspaper articles going back over 100 years saying kids today are the worst

https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1575610379702796288

A history of kids today are spoilt
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1600628195854020608

A history of children now control their parents
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1648083986143674374

Lighthearted but here's the complete list of threads like men today are too soft, nobody wants to work anymore, music today is rubbish and more
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1573766766723215360

Don't think it applies to this. There has been a shift in the way people view the status of school teachers. It wasn't that long ago that they were viewed similarly to judges,leading civil servants and dare I say religious ministers. Now they're viewed as highly qualified child minders in some areas of society.

[Ozyhibby]

I've put this up before but a thread with newspaper articles going back over 100 years saying kids today are the worst

https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1575610379702796288

A history of kids today are spoilt
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1600628195854020608

A history of children now control their parents
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1648083986143674374

Lighthearted but here's the complete list of threads like men today are too soft, nobody wants to work anymore, music today is rubbish and more
https://twitter.com/paulisci/status/1573766766723215360

It’s a Hibs.net regular about how kids these days are more violent, have less respect etc. It’s not born out by the facts though. Schools these days are a lot less violent than they were when I was at school. I also find kids these days to be very polite and well behaved.


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[Hibrandenburg]

It’s a Hibs.net regular about how kids these days are more violent, have less respect etc. It’s not born out by the facts though. Schools these days are a lot less violent than they were when I was at school. I also find kids these days to be very polite and well behaved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd definitely agree with that when it comes to what pupils experience, but for teachers it's a different story. Alone in the last decade, violence against teachers has increased considerably.

[Bridge hibs]

It’s a Hibs.net regular about how kids these days are more violent, have less respect etc. It’s not born out by the facts though. Schools these days are a lot less violent than they were when I was at school. I also find kids these days to be very polite and well behaved.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI think the respect issue has to work both ways though, we can all share varying experiences of where we grew up, how tough it was etc and opinions may vary depending on our ages

I had a torrid childhood, quite nomadic and attended various schools up until high school age. I was very street wise and took care of myself but I was never ever a bully, probably more impish or attention seeking at secondary and more likely borne out of lack of love or support from my parents, I have no recollection of being cuddled or embraced by my parents, I never got asked how my day at school went, however when the report card arrived in the post, which was never good reading I was leathered or grounded ss a result

School and Teachers were the ones that should have given me that support, they should have noticed the malnourished and sometimes bruised kid that was falling asleep in class because I couldnt sleep at night due to constant arguing and more on a nightly basis at home

I wasnt a bad person at school, disruptive probably but more likely because I craved attention, to be wanted, liked and included. Due to that I became a target, not by my class mates but by my Teachers, a “few” took a morbid pleasure in demonstrating their “belt skills” and more often or not I was lashed two to three times daily and believe me a few Teachers took great pleasure in inflicting pain

I became immune to it as it was a recurring theme and mostly by the same Teachers. I wasnt verbally abusive to them nor ever physically abusive, that wasnt in my nature. In adulthood I always reflected on my school days and to this day how it affected me psychologically.

It wasnt just about the belt though, for instance Spanish class, I really struggled with the connect, I just couldnt grasp it and I remember voicing this to my Teacher often. The end result was I was sent to sit in a corner with some paper and coloured pencils and told to draw pictures, I was actually good at art so in a way I actually enjoyed it as I felt it was therapeutic, an escape kind off. However more support would have been appreciated

It didnt deter me from doing what I wanted in life, I have a great marriage, great kids and a great job. However parents aside I couldnt have ever felt more let down by the very ones (Teachers) that should have supported me and provided or worked with me to build a life, build my confidence, make me a better person rather than use me as a tool to enable them to demonstrate their bullying superiority, or in most cases their own inferiority

Can I just qualify this by adding that this was a “handfull” pardon the pun of Teachers, in the main most were decent

[LewysGot2]

I think the respect issue has to work both ways though, we can all share varying experiences of where we grew up, how tough it was etc and opinions may vary depending on our ages

I had a torrid childhood, quite nomadic and attended various schools up until high school age. I was very street wise and took care of myself but I was never ever a bully, probably more impish or attention seeking at secondary and more likely borne out of lack of love or support from my parents, I have no recollection of being cuddled or embraced by my parents, I never got asked how my day at school went, however when the report card arrived in the post, which was never good reading I was leathered or grounded ss a result

School and Teachers were the ones that should have given me that support, they should have noticed the malnourished and sometimes bruised kid that was falling asleep in class because I couldnt sleep at night due to constant arguing and more on a nightly basis at home

I wasnt a bad person at school, disruptive probably but more likely because I craved attention, to be wanted, liked and included. Due to that I became a target, not by my class mates but by my Teachers, a “few” took a morbid pleasure in demonstrating their “belt skills” and more often or not I was lashed two to three times daily and believe me a few Teachers took great pleasure in inflicting pain

I became immune to it as it was a recurring theme and mostly by the same Teachers. I wasnt verbally abusive to them nor ever physically abusive, that wasnt in my nature. In adulthood I always reflected on my school days and to this day how it affected me psychologically.

It didnt deter me from doing what I wanted in life, I have a great marriage, great kids and a great job. However parents aside I couldnt have ever felt more let down by the very ones (Teachers) that should have supported me and provided or worked with me to build a life, build my confidence, make me a better person rather than use me as a tool to enable them to demonstrate their bullying superiority, or in most cases their own inferiority

Can I just qualify this by adding that this was a “handfull” pardon the pun of Teachers, in the main most were decent

Corporal punishment went when I was at primary school and I'm an auld git. You must be a long time out of school (,no offence, mate) and whilst I empathise with your account of your childhood and how you feel about what happened these days, things seem to have gone completely in the other direction. As a parent my kids have had the kindest, most generous of spirit and nature teachers throughout their schooling. Lots of really caring folk who are expected to be social workers, substitute parents, mender of all societies problems and police. My kids regularly talk about feeling sorry for their favourite teachers and what they have to put up with in class. They're no angels but they can't believe what they see from other pupils on a day to day basis.

[MountcastleHibs]

I've read a number of comments about zero tolerance etc but is it not nigh on impossible to exclude a pupil in Scottish schools any more? Maybe the poster above who is a guidance teacher could carefully confirm or clarify?

I'm pretty sure the Scottish government, enforced by councils, ate closely monitoring exclusions and schools pretty much can't exclude any more? So a zero tolerance approach would be nigh on impossible?

It's not just pupils who are posing threats of violence to staff in schools by all accounts, recently one of the local schools had to ask parents to stay away from the playground at the beginning and end of the day due to threatening behaviour towards staff. It was/is an Edinburgh primary school, reported in the EEN.
I mean, 90+ % of staff in primary schools are female - so what kind of adult thinks this is in any way shape or form acceptable? Wouldn't be acceptable for male staff either BTW but this is a sad reflection of the parenting influencing pupil behaviours.

There are next to no specialist schools for youngsters with behaviour needs (not disability related needs) as they've shut them almost all down - Gorgie Mills is the last one standing in Edinburgh? Was it Swinney who oversaw the legislation about presumption of mainstream? Seem to remember it being launched in a blaze of publicity - how many teachers were involved in its development? Or was it all academics in ivory towers and politicians? Like, folk who've no idea how it is to manage classes of teenagers?
Appreciate it may be difficult for some of those on the thread who work in education to say everything they might want to.

I’m a primary school teacher and certainly in my authority, that is the policy. It is incredibly difficult to exclude a child now.

I would agree with lots of what I’ve read on this thread. Even in my 10 years of teaching (and although it’s primary school), I’ve seen a massive change in behaviour. For me, COVID seems to have been a turning point. Particularly when it comes to parents/carers.

[Bridge hibs]

Corporal punishment went when I was at primary school and I'm an auld git. You must be a long time out of school (,no offence, mate) and whilst I empathise with your account of your childhood and how you feel about what happened these days, things seem to have gone completely in the other direction. As a parent my kids have had the kindest, most generous of spirit and nature teachers throughout their schooling. Lots of really caring folk who are expected to be social workers, substitute parents, mender of all societies problems and police. My kids regularly talk about feeling sorry for their favourite teachers and what they have to put up with in class. They're no angels but they can't believe what they see from other pupils on a day to day basis.I agree, and to be clear of all the schools I attended I never once witnessed any verbal abuse nor physical abuse towards Teachers, not saying it never happened but I certainly never witnessed it and that was also from less privelaged areas too where I knew a few characters who would normally not be as reserved when out on the streets

I can also say my story is only a timeline of my own experience, I am aware of a few of my school chums going through similar or far worse experiences to mines

I have actually met a few Teachers from my school days at both primary and secondary, one in particular whom I had a beer with (Headmaster) and a great guy who was very open and transparent about punishment as a deterent, he didnt enjoy it despite me arguing otherwise but words more or less that he had to show who was boss. It did feel like a kind off outer body experience sitting in a pub chewing the fat with someone who inflicted an almost daily pain on me and theres me buying him a beer 😃

[He's here!]

I've read a number of comments about zero tolerance etc but is it not nigh on impossible to exclude a pupil in Scottish schools any more? Maybe the poster above who is a guidance teacher could carefully confirm or clarify?

I'm pretty sure the Scottish government, enforced by councils, ate closely monitoring exclusions and schools pretty much can't exclude any more? So a zero tolerance approach would be nigh on impossible?

It's not just pupils who are posing threats of violence to staff in schools by all accounts, recently one of the local schools had to ask parents to stay away from the playground at the beginning and end of the day due to threatening behaviour towards staff. It was/is an Edinburgh primary school, reported in the EEN.
I mean, 90+ % of staff in primary schools are female - so what kind of adult thinks this is in any way shape or form acceptable? Wouldn't be acceptable for male staff either BTW but this is a sad reflection of the parenting influencing pupil behaviours.

There are next to no specialist schools for youngsters with behaviour needs (not disability related needs) as they've shut them almost all down - Gorgie Mills is the last one standing in Edinburgh? Was it Swinney who oversaw the legislation about presumption of mainstream? Seem to remember it being launched in a blaze of publicity - how many teachers were involved in its development? Or was it all academics in ivory towers and politicians? Like, folk who've no idea how it is to manage classes of teenagers?
Appreciate it may be difficult for some of those on the thread who work in education to say everything they might want to.

The special schools are indeed thin on the ground. There's also Braidburn and Kaimes, plus the couple of others. One of the kids I worked with in a mainstream primary school eventually ended up at Kaimes where I gather they've responded well to an environment more tailored to their significant needs.

[H18 SFR]

I’m a primary school teacher and certainly in my authority, that is the policy. It is incredibly difficult to exclude a child now.

I would agree with lots of what I’ve read on this thread. Even in my 10 years of teaching (and although it’s primary school), I’ve seen a massive change in behaviour. For me, COVID seems to have been a turning point. Particularly when it comes to parents/carers.

My school has over 60% pupils from SIMD 1 and 2 so we have a lot of needs and challenges.

For a significant number of young people we try to work closely with their families as it is so difficult to exclude - we often encourage them to volunteer to ‘self-exclude’ their child with a package of support around them…home learning, EWO input, and restorative discussions with the staff they have assaulted, verbally abused or threatened etc.

Edit - should have added, perhaps for 1-3 days etc, essentially cooling off time as a lot of our high tariff young people are so aggressive.

[LewysGot2]

The special schools are indeed thin on the ground. There's also Braidburn and Kaimes, plus the couple of others. One of the kids I worked with in a mainstream primary school eventually ended up at Kaimes where I gather they've responded well to an environment more tailored to their significant needs.

Braidburn, Kaimes etc are for young people with disability related needs though? Like ASD?

I’m talking about schools for “SEBN” - like Panmure in the Old Town etc which are now closed? What was the residential school in the moors in Midlothian- it shut, too? Name escapes me think it might have been Wellington? Only Gorgie Mills left out of those schools?

When we were at school the kind of needs now being supported in mainstream we didn’t encounter because there were additional provisions for a wider range of needs.

[SHODAN]

I attended school in Carnoustie from 1995 to 2009 and behaviour was so-so, you had some incidents but by and large it wasn't too bad. Attended a workshop in my previous job at a primary school in a deprived (SIMD 1) area and the kids were well behaved, engaging, and more respectful of each other and their differences than they were back when I was in school.

The main issue, based on the work I did as a child health inequality researcher a few years ago, is income inequality; specifically IMO lack of funding for teachers and to support kids with problems at home. I'm sure the real solution though is the belt and national service etc etc. :rolleyes:

[Hibernian Verse]

Off topic but a group of "youths" passed my door yesterday, clearly saw me through the window and then proceeded to run up to said door and boot it before running away.

I just left it as they had scampered, but I was thinking earlier what were my options there? I couldn't have chased and grabbed him because you aren't allowed to lay a finger on them. My mrs was ready to phone the police but what good would that have done?

They clearly aren't disciplined at home either.

[He's here!]

My school has over 60% pupils from SIMD 1 and 2 so we have a lot of needs and challenges.

For a significant number of young people we try to work closely with their families as it is so difficult to exclude - we often encourage them to volunteer to ‘self-exclude’ their child with a package of support around them…home learning, EWO input, and restorative discussions with the staff they have assaulted, verbally abused or threatened etc.

Edit - should have added, perhaps for 1-3 days etc, essentially cooling off time as a lot of our high tariff young people are so aggressive.

That sounds very tough. Exclusion is a can of worms but as you say if you can engage positively with the families involved some sort of agreement is on occasion possible. From an ASN perspective I recall one child who was so aggressive that we lost a young teacher (who basically quit when told she'd have this child in her class for another year) plus a couple of support staff who could no longer stomach the regular cuts and bruises (essentially for providing high risk/maintenance childcare for minimum wage). While the parents would have known only too well how challenging this child was they refused to cut the school any slack for years before finally agreeing that they should only attend half days when a member of staff ended up in hospital.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66219779

Scotsman's front page leads with sharp increase in violence against school staff in Scotland, 'almost all' by pupils with additional support needs.

Won't come as a surprise to many working in schools.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66219779

Scotsman's front page leads with sharp increase in violence against school staff in Scotland, 'almost all' by pupils with additional support needs.

Won't come as a surprise to many working in schools.

It says there has been a downward trend to less violence in previous years, then a sudden spike. You any idea why,I've seen covid and less funding for additional needs support both mentioned.

[He's here!]

It says there has been a downward trend to less violence in previous years, then a sudden spike. You any idea why,I've seen covid and less funding for additional needs support both mentioned.

Both those factors play a big part in my experience. Covid was very challenging for many kids with ASN in the sense that integration with their peers was limited to non existent, while for pre-school aged kids, coming out of lockdown to go straight into a busy school environment was all but impossible for some to cope with. The lockdowns were lengthy enough for adults to deal with with but for kids in their formative years they represented huge chunks of their lives.

The legacy of that has thrown into sharp relief the fact support resources for ASN kids were always drastically lacking in many schools. The whole 'presumption of mainstreaming' initiative needs reassessed.

[J-C]

Both those factors play a big part in my experience. Covid was very challenging for many kids with ASN in the sense that integration with their peers was limited to non existent, while for pre-school aged kids, coming out of lockdown to go straight into a busy school environment was all but impossible for some to cope with. The lockdowns were lengthy enough for adults to deal with with but for kids in their formative years they represented huge chunks of their lives.

The legacy of that has thrown into sharp relief the fact support resources for ASN kids were always drastically lacking in many schools. The whole 'presumption of mainstreaming' initiative needs reassessed.

My granddaughter who goes from nursery to primary in August suffered this, as did many of her friends. The development needed between ages of 2 and 4 was affected due to not mixing with other kids, she's clever enough but her social skills were such they thought about holding her back a year, not just her but her whole year of nursery, seemingly most of the kids were behind.

[Keith_M]

The special schools are indeed thin on the ground. There's also Braidburn and Kaimes, plus the couple of others. One of the kids I worked with in a mainstream primary school eventually ended up at Kaimes where I gather they've responded well to an environment more tailored to their significant needs.


Not sure if it's the one that Lewy was referring to, but there used to be a 'special needs' school in Humbie, Midlothian.

I think it was closed down about 20 years ago.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

There's a kid at my son's school who was excluded from his previous school for carrying a knife (allegedly). Since joining this school, he's tried picking on various kids (including my son - had my son by the throat asking for phone/money. Son kicked him in the nuts and told him to go **** himself. never had an issue again). He's settled on a kid half his size, has sexually harassed several girls that have left the school but the school seem unable to do anything. That was first year

[Glory Lurker]

Both those factors play a big part in my experience. Covid was very challenging for many kids with ASN in the sense that integration with their peers was limited to non existent, while for pre-school aged kids, coming out of lockdown to go straight into a busy school environment was all but impossible for some to cope with. The lockdowns were lengthy enough for adults to deal with with but for kids in their formative years they represented huge chunks of their lives.

The legacy of that has thrown into sharp relief the fact support resources for ASN kids were always drastically lacking in many schools. The whole 'presumption of mainstreaming' initiative needs reassessed.

Are only ASN kids causing trouble? Is there not a wider issue with kids having missed crucial social development due to the lockdowns?

I know I'm returning to what I said earlier but you are focusing on ASN kids. That makes your thread title unfair. Change it to "Does integrated schooling fail ASN kids and pressure teachers?", or something like that.

[He's here!]

Are only ASN kids causing trouble? Is there not a wider issue with kids having missed crucial social development due to the lockdowns?

I know I'm returning to what I said earlier but you are focusing on ASN kids. That makes your thread title unfair. Change it to "Does integrated schooling fail ASN kids and pressure teachers?", or something like that.

My most recent posts are in relation to the link posted to the Scotsman front page story this week which revealed 'almost all' the recent upsurge in attacks on school staff have come from kids with ASN. I'd agree with you that there's a system failure at the root of this, but I hadn't been aware of just how strong the correlation is when I started the thread.