Edinburgh Football attendances

[AgentDaleCooper]

Saw that both hibs and hearts averaged over 17,000 this season (our knobby neighbours actually passed 18,000)...just got me thinking, what do folk think the two clubs could reach if they were to be regularly challenging the OF for the league? Obviously it's very unlikely to happen any time soon, but it's an interesting thought in terms of potential fanbase...could both teams be pushing 30k or more in such a scenario?

[Paulie Walnuts]

Saw that both hibs and hearts averaged over 17,000 this season (our knobby neighbours actually passed 18,000)...just got me thinking, what do folk think the two clubs could reach if they were to be regularly challenging the OF for the league? Obviously it's very unlikely to happen any time soon, but it's an interesting thought in terms of potential fanbase...could both teams be pushing 30k or more in such a scenario?

If we were regularly challenging the Old Firm then our fan base would grow so 30k is probably realistic.

If it was a one off challenge of the Old Firm I reckon we’d be able to sell out our stadium every week but I’m not sure we’d have all that much more missing out.

[LaMotta]

One things for sure is that Hearts will never average over 19k because their stadium is small and it doesn't have any possibility for expansion.

[OstKurve Hibs]

One things for sure is that Hearts will never average over 19k because their stadium is small and it doesn't have any possibility for expansion.

Nonsense, 'the famous' have plenty of room for expansion.
They can easily get 2 rows of dining room chairs all the way round the pitchside, they have dining room chairs in their dug outs so why not ?
Might even take them over 20k capacity aswell.

[Bridge hibs]

Nonsense, 'the famous' have plenty of room for expansion.
They can easily get 2 rows of dining room chairs all the way round the pitchside, they have dining room chairs in their dug outs so why not ?
Might even take them over 20k capacity aswell.

I still piss myself laughing at the dining room chair in the hearts dug out, absolute tramps 🤣

[overdrive]

I still piss myself laughing at the dining room chair in the hearts dug out, absolute tramps 🤣

Also that weird bit in the Gorgie Stand that raises up on stilts so the folk in hospitality can get pitch views before a match… presumably only until the turnstiles open 🤣

https://images.app.goo.gl/792nhEVSQoHsN1jL9

[Bridge hibs]

Also that weird bit in the Gorgie Stand that raises up on stilts so the folk in hospitality can get pitch views before a match… presumably only until the turnstiles open 🤣

https://images.app.goo.gl/792nhEVSQoHsN1jL9

Thats just to let the smell out 🤣

[eastterrace]

You just got to love Attendance FC with their season ticket waiting list and over 20 thou capacity that’s what makes them the big team :wink:

[Waxy]

One things for sure is that Hearts will never average over 19k because their stadium is small and it doesn't have any possibility for expansion.

They would just build a 24 level gigantistand

[Aldo]

One things for sure is that Hearts will never average over 19k because their stadium is small and it doesn't have any possibility for expansion.

BeLIEve what they want. They have never confirmed the official
capacity since they started building (note- I never mentioned complete as I dint think it is) the bestest single tier main stand with the smallest every seat width to try and boost numbers, and we would all know if it was over 20k as they would talk about it.

19852 is official capacity not 20,099.

[LancsHibs]

They have one of the Queens Park box stands on order to top the 20k ceiling

[King Cosell]

Saw that both hibs and hearts averaged over 17,000 this season (our knobby neighbours actually passed 18,000)...just got me thinking, what do folk think the two clubs could reach if they were to be regularly challenging the OF for the league? Obviously it's very unlikely to happen any time soon, but it's an interesting thought in terms of potential fanbase...could both teams be pushing 30k or more in such a scenario?
We've averaged over 17,000 three times since 1957/58:

2017/18 - 18,124
2018/19 - 17,741
2022/23 - 17,427

If Hibs & Hearts were challenging for the title and we switched the Old Firm games and the derby to Murrayfield we could average 50,000 for our 6 games there and let's say 20,000 for our 13 home games at ER, our average would be 29,474.

[Tyler Durden]

You just got to love Attendance FC with their season ticket waiting list and over 20 thou capacity that’s what makes them the big team :wink:

Yeah their average attendance was 5% bigger than ours. Yuge team.

[PHeffernan]

Yeah their average attendance was 5% bigger than ours. Yuge team.

It's more like 7% which will have brought in an extra £300k.
We need to persuade another 1,000 Hibees to go to home games regularly instead of watching on their hooky fire sticks.

[Leith Green]

Apparently Hearts ticket office staff have spent the past week phoning the “waiting list” to tell them that they can purchase a season ticket for next season. Obviously that means lots of last season’s attendees haven’t bothered renewing.

[PHeffernan]

Apparently Hearts ticket office staff have spent the past week phoning the “waiting list” to tell them that they can purchase a season ticket for next season. Obviously that means lots of last season’s attendees haven’t bothered renewing.

Is that not the purpose of a waiting list?

Hibs have apparently sold over 11,000 season tickets already so hopefully we will be up on our ST numbers for the last few seasons. Even an extra couple of hundred would be progress.

[Davy Mac]

I remember a survey done many years ago on this subject and confired we share similarities to the Sheffield teams and according to our population, we should be averaging 27,000.

One of the reasons given why we are not achieivng this number was due to the rugby influence in Edinburgh.

[Dashing Bob S]

I remember a survey done many years ago on this subject and confired we share similarities to the Sheffield teams and according to our population, we should be averaging 27,000.

One of the reasons given why we are not achieivng this number was due to the rugby influence in Edinburgh.

Nonsense. We’re punching above our weight considering we’re in a league largely starved of the riches and exposure offered by king TV. Can anyone really claim that Bournemouth or Brentford are naturally bigger clubs than Hibs or Hearts? If either were playing in the English Premiership they would be looking to Murrayfield for many of the home games, at least in terms of satisfying spectator demand.

[I'm Spartacus]

Is there no way we can do a Festival Tourist drive? Folk arriving in Edinburgh from football loving nations, maybe put a some Festival packs together: (I have clearly just made the below up so please don;t pick apart!)

- 2 tickets, a signed programme and 2 scarfs - £40
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs and a strip - £65
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks - £75
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks and a Hibs TV code to watch a match when you are back home - £80

Edinburgh is bursting with folk looking to do things for the whole of August.

[Billy Whizz]

Is there no way we can do a Festival Tourist drive? Folk arriving in Edinburgh from football loving nations, maybe put a some Festival packs together: (I have clearly just made the below up so please don;t pick apart!)

- 2 tickets, a signed programme and 2 scarfs - £40
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs and a strip - £65
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks - £75
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks and a Hibs TV code to watch a match when you are back home - £80

Edinburgh is bursting with folk looking to do things for the whole of August.

Great idea, but we can only get them in the ground if we have a home game against the likes of Ross County etc

[PHeffernan]

Is there no way we can do a Festival Tourist drive? Folk arriving in Edinburgh from football loving nations, maybe put a some Festival packs together: (I have clearly just made the below up so please don;t pick apart!)

- 2 tickets, a signed programme and 2 scarfs - £40
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs and a strip - £65
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks - £75
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks and a Hibs TV code to watch a match when you are back home - £80

Edinburgh is bursting with folk looking to do things for the whole of August.

Tourists, students plus more girls and women are the groups we need to tap further into.

[.Sean.]

I remember a survey done many years ago on this subject and confired we share similarities to the Sheffield teams and according to our population, we should be averaging 27,000.

One of the reasons given why we are not achieivng this number was due to the rugby influence in Edinburgh.
If that was true why are Edinburgh rugbys crowds pathetic?

We all know the reason why Hibs and Hearts aren’t better supported. For a start East Lothian and Edinburgh is crawling with sad, desperate, pathetic Old Firm hangers on. Not supporters, we all know the type who never bother going and couldn’t find Ibrox or Parkhead. The Armchair Loyal and the Barstool Faithful.

[superfurryhibby]

Is there no way we can do a Festival Tourist drive? Folk arriving in Edinburgh from football loving nations, maybe put a some Festival packs together: (I have clearly just made the below up so please don;t pick apart!)

- 2 tickets, a signed programme and 2 scarfs - £40
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs and a strip - £65
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks - £75
- 2 tickets, a signed programme, 2 scarfs, a strip, 2 pies and 2 drinks and a Hibs TV code to watch a match when you are back home - £80

Edinburgh is bursting with folk looking to do things for the whole of August.

I think you're massively under-pricing, but the principle is a good one.

Given that a Hibs top alone is probably around £50.00 and a scarf must be a tenner or thereabout we can forget adding on the goods.

[Davy Mac]

If that was true why are Edinburgh rugbys crowds pathetic?

We all know the reason why Hibs and Hearts aren’t better supported. For a start East Lothian and Edinburgh is crawling with sad, desperate, pathetic Old Firm hangers on. Not supporters, we all know the type who never bother going and couldn’t find Ibrox or Parkhead. The Armchair Loyal and the Barstool Faithful.

As i said, i was only qouting an article i read many years ago, so its not my personal opinion about the rugger types.

Agreed about the glory hunters, particulary the ones who have no connection to Glasgow.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I remember a survey done many years ago on this subject and confired we share similarities to the Sheffield teams and according to our population, we should be averaging 27,000.

One of the reasons given why we are not achieivng this number was due to the rugby influence in Edinburgh.

Any similarities we share with the circumstances of the two Sheffield clubs begins and ends with population though. By and large both clubs spend their life in the English championship, with making the EPL being seen as massive success and that ambition is a realistic one, unlike that of Hibs and Hearts to win the league. Their opponents are capable in large part of taking up any away allocation these clubs offer them and most of the clubs they play are a bit more of an attraction than Livingston, Kilmarnock or Ross County I would imagine.

In a 24 team league they never meet the same opponent at home in a season, they have variety, whereas a lack of variety in our league has been an ongoing issue, that's no a criticism of our league as such, there are good reasons for it. I'm not saying Sheffield isn't a fitba toon by the way, it clearly is.

I'm not massively convinced of the rugby argument either ... what's the average attendance of Edinburgh rugby in a typical season? The best piece of evidence I can find is a Scotsman article from 2022 where they were bumming about their game with some French club attracting a bigger crowd than the corresponding Hibs game ... seems impressive until you find out that Hibs game was a 4th round Scottish cup tie with Cove Rangers.
Edinburgh rugby are one of only two pro clubs in Scotland and if they really are making a dent in the crowds of Hibs and Hearts it's bloody miniscule, in spite of them having the whole of the east of Scotland at their mercy.

In fact the only rugby thing that does affect Hibs is the fact that we are always at home on days Scotland are at Murrayfield and Hearts for obvious reasons never are ...... why Hibs have never pressured the SFA to allow us to play at home on the Friday or Sunday on these weekends is beyond me. We have season ticket holders and no doubt walk ups who don't turn up because they have tickets for Murrayfield. If we could change we might even attract a few French, English, Welsh, Irish and especially Italian punters up for the game who might fancy the exotic attractions of a Scottish premiership match.

It seems barmy on the face of it that we allow a situation to continue that clearly affects our crowds, whereas if we were to address that situation we might actually get a few more punters than usual through the door ... not just that, but many rugby fans also like fitba, we might even sell a few shirts and scarves to these visitors as souvenirs of their visit to the holy ground.

[SickBoy32]

Great idea, but we can only get them in the ground if we have a home game against the likes of Ross County etc

Not sure if this would be too onerous for the TO staff, but we could maybe implement checks for the CatA fixtures to allow tourists to attend ie against foreign passports / hotel bookings etc

[matty_f]

Both Hibs and Hearts have big support bases with the majority not attending games - you only have to look at the Cup parades to see the potential there.

If either (or both) teams were able to win the league consistently over a decade, we would have to increase the capacity at Easter Rd and would, if the stadium permitted, reach the crowds that Rangers and Celtic get.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Both Hibs and Hearts have big support bases with the majority not attending games - you only have to look at the Cup parades to see the potential there.

If either (or both) teams were able to win the league consistently over a decade, we would have to increase the capacity at Easter Rd and would, if the stadium permitted, reach the crowds that Rangers and Celtic get.

This is exactly why I never understand folk who totally dismiss the potential attractiveness of Hibs to some billionaire. The amount of money required to challenge the uglies is paltry compared to what would be required to make a dent in England or Spain. Any club who could end their 40 year duopoly would make headlines throughout the sporting world.

The potential ( as you say ) to grow Hibs average from 17,000 to more like 25,000 or 30,000 on the back of such success is absolutely obvious to me at least. I can't ever see either Edinburgh club hitting north of 40,000 to be honest. ... some building at the stadium to accommodate that would be required of course :greengrin

Love the podcasts by the way Matty.

[PHeffernan]

Any similarities we share with the circumstances of the two Sheffield clubs begins and ends with population though. By and large both clubs spend their life in the English championship, with making the EPL being seen as massive success and that ambition is a realistic one, unlike that of Hibs and Hearts to win the league. Their opponents are capable in large part of taking up any away allocation these clubs offer them and most of the clubs they play are a bit more of an attraction than Livingston, Kilmarnock or Ross County I would imagine.

In a 24 team league they never meet the same opponent at home in a season, they have variety, whereas a lack of variety in our league has been an ongoing issue, that's no a criticism of our league as such, there are good reasons for it. I'm not saying Sheffield isn't a fitba toon by the way, it clearly is.

I'm not massively convinced of the rugby argument either ... what's the average attendance of Edinburgh rugby in a typical season? The best piece of evidence I can find is a Scotsman article from 2022 where they were bumming about their game with some French club attracting a bigger crowd than the corresponding Hibs game ... seems impressive until you find out that Hibs game was a 4th round Scottish cup tie with Cove Rangers.
Edinburgh rugby are one of only two pro clubs in Scotland and if they really are making a dent in the crowds of Hibs and Hearts it's bloody miniscule, in spite of them having the whole of the east of Scotland at their mercy.

In fact the only rugby thing that does affect Hibs is the fact that we are always at home on days Scotland are at Murrayfield and Hearts for obvious reasons never are ...... why Hibs have never pressured the SFA to allow us to play at home on the Friday or Sunday on these weekends is beyond me. We have season ticket holders and no doubt walk ups who don't turn up because they have tickets for Murrayfield. If we could change we might even attract a few French, English, Welsh, Irish and especially Italian punters up for the game who might fancy the exotic attractions of a Scottish premiership match.

It seems barmy on the face of it that we allow a situation to continue that clearly affects our crowds, whereas if we were to address that situation we might actually get a few more punters than usual through the door ... not just that, but many rugby fans also like fitba, we might even sell a few shirts and scarves to these visitors as souvenirs of their visit to the holy ground.

That is a really good point. Allows our own supporters to go to both games, brings in extra supporters and sells more merchandise. All wins.
Friday night would be ideal.

[matty_f]

This is exactly why I never understand folk who totally dismiss the potential attractiveness of Hibs to some billionaire. The amount of money required to challenge the uglies is paltry compared to what would be required to make a dent in England or Spain. Any club who could end their 40 year duopoly would make headlines throughout the sporting world.

The potential ( as you say ) to grow Hibs average from 17,000 to more like 25,000 or 30,000 on the back of such success is absolutely obvious to me at least. I can't ever see either Edinburgh club hitting north of 40,000 to be honest. ... some building at the stadium to accommodate that would be required of course :greengrin

Love the podcasts by the way Matty.
Thanks - very much appreciated!

I think if we were successful for more than a couple of years we’d be able to fill a 30k stadium. If we pushed that to 8-10 years of sustained success (bear in mind that would bring regular Champions League football) then i think we’d get 50-60k if the stadium could hold it. Same for Hearts, to be honest.

I totally agree about the potential, by the way. I’ve set out an argument for that on here before and i think we’re ideally placed for it

[Since90+2]

Thanks - very much appreciated!

I think if we were successful for more than a couple of years we’d be able to fill a 30k stadium. If we pushed that to 8-10 years of sustained success (bear in mind that would bring regular Champions League football) then i think we’d get 50-60k if the stadium could hold it. Same for Hearts, to be honest.

I totally agree about the potential, by the way. I’ve set out an argument for that on here before and i think we’re ideally placed for it

It wouldn't necessarily bring regular Champions League football.

Celtic, despite their almost complete dominance of the Scottish game, have only played in the Champions League 4 out of the last 10 years.

Celtic have huge revenues, bigger than we'd ever have even if we were successful,and if they can't get in it more often than the don't, I wouldn't be confident we could do otherwise.

[matty_f]

It wouldn't necessarily bring regular Champions League football.

Celtic, despite their almost complete dominance of the Scottish game, have only played in the Champions League 4 out of the last 10 years.

Celtic have huge revenues, bigger than we'd ever have even if we were successful,and if they can't get in it more often than the don't, I wouldn't be confident we could do otherwise.

They are guaranteed group stages now, and we’d be better than Celtic if we were winning the league. :greengrin:

[Since90+2]

They are guaranteed group stages now, and we’d be better than Celtic if we were winning the league. :greengrin:

At the moment, there's a good chance we'll lose that guaranteed spot once Rangers run to the Europa League final falls off the coefficient.

[DIXIHIBS]

Thanks - very much appreciated!

I think if we were successful for more than a couple of years we’d be able to fill a 30k stadium. If we pushed that to 8-10 years of sustained success (bear in mind that would bring regular Champions League football) then i think we’d get 50-60k if the stadium could hold it. Same for Hearts, to be honest.

I totally agree about the potential, by the way. I’ve set out an argument for that on here before and i think we’re ideally placed for it

I agree their is potential for higher crowds but nothing like you are quoting imo. Hibs highest average was about 32k and that was early 50s after years of success with Famous Five. That also included several huge crowds including 65k v hertz i think. Weekly crowds just now are not far off capacity (i know more empty seats etc) and i can see full houses every week with more success...maybe even up to 25k, but 50-60k...never.

[itslegaltender]

We had stalls at freshers events for first time last year, hopefully the club does more of that this year. Student prices are fairly reasonable, grabbing the influx of students and turning into Hibees will help us in short as well as long term. We are seen as far more inclusive than the Sevcousins, we should make as much of that as possible.

[matty_f]

We had stalls at freshers events for first time last year, hopefully the club does more of that this year. Student prices are fairly reasonable, grabbing the influx of students and turning into Hibees will help us in short as well as long term. We are seen as far more inclusive than the Sevcousins, we should make as much of that as possible.

I was picking up my folks from Edinburgh Airport last week, i logged into the wifi and the landing page had a “things to do in Edinburgh” list, top of which was “Good to Easter Road to watch Hibernian”.

[matty_f]

I agree their is potential for higher crowds but nothing like you are quoting imo. Hibs highest average was about 32k and that was early 50s after years of success with Famous Five. That also included several huge crowds including 65k v hertz i think. Weekly crowds just now are not far off capacity (i know more empty seats etc) and i can see full houses every week with more success...maybe even up to 25k, but 50-60k...never.

Would be interesting to see Rangers and Celtic’s averages at that time.

I know Celtic and Rangers didn’t get anywhere near their current attendance regularly when they were going through leaner times.

[Since452]

We'd comfortably be selling out ER every week if the league was a genuine possibility. Wasn't so long ago we were averaging over 18k in a two horse race.

[Ringothedog]

Would be interesting to see Rangers and Celtic’s averages at that time.

I know Celtic and Rangers didn’t get anywhere near their current attendance regularly when they were going through leaner times.

In the 50’s
Celtic lowest average 17706
Celtic highest average 30587
Rangers lowest average 31200
Rangers highest average 39667
Hearts lowest average 21000
Hearts Highest average 28000
Hibs Lowest average 14618
Hibs Highest average 31567

[NAE NOOKIE]

I agree their is potential for higher crowds but nothing like you are quoting imo. Hibs highest average was about 32k and that was early 50s after years of success with Famous Five. That also included several huge crowds including 65k v hertz i think. Weekly crowds just now are not far off capacity (i know more empty seats etc) and i can see full houses every week with more success...maybe even up to 25k, but 50-60k...never.

Kind of where I am with this. Things are different from the 50s with far more distractions away from football than there was then, but on the other hand the population of Edinburgh, the Lothians and the Borders is growing all the time.

Folk shouldn't kid themselves with what the Uglies get, they attract support from all over Scotland, which no matter how well Hibs or Hearts do we could never match. But I see absolutely no reason why both Edinburgh premiership clubs couldn't average well over 20,000 in the right circumstances. Hibs hit over 20,000 for a Friday night game with St Johnstone for what was a bog standard league game, reduced prices or not it shows our potential.

The massive gap in finances between two clubs and everybody else is a huge stumbling block to future growth, how you address that with UEFA's FFP policy is the question .... I simply can't believe that a club like Man City hasn't challenged it in court .... I would fully support a policy which stops an owner from lending their club money and then simply being able to walk away leaving said club with a huge debt.
But if an owner wants to gift the club they own any amount of money in a search for success then let them get on with it, failing that introduce a wage cap worldwide through FIFA along the lines of the NFL. Without that possibility all you have is a situation where the giants with the most fans and global reach remain the giants forever.

Finally, I've said it before on this subject. In my opinion the Uglies rivals like Hibs are far too passive when it comes to the number of 'fans' these two clubs leech from the rest of Scottish football. For me it's well past time that the part these glory hunters play in maintaining a status quo we never tire of moaning about was highlighted by the other clubs, even to the extent of an advertising campaign on the telly. There's brighter folk than me out there who could find a way to construct such a campaign that could shame folk into giving the Uglies a body swerve without putting them off football entirely.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure a few years back Kilmarnock had an amnesty, where they would give a scarf or Killie top free to any fan who was willing to swap a Celtic or Rangers one for it and switch to supporting Killie ... there's no evidence that it had the desired effect, but it does show that there was thinking by at least one club that it's a situation that can and should be addressed past the point of simply bitching about it or shrugging your shoulders and taking an 'it is what it is' attitude.

[ancient hibee]

I
In the 50’s
Celtic lowest average 17706
Celtic highest average 30587
Rangers lowest average 31200
Rangers highest average 39667
Hearts lowest average 21000
Hearts Highest average 28000
Hibs Lowest average 14618
Hibs Highest average 31567

Clubs in the 50s never published their attendances because of the entertainment tax situation. The papers used to guesstimate for publication-always round figures. Your figures will certainly be thereabouts particularly the high ones.

[Wakeyhibee]

I

Clubs in the 50s never published their attendances because of the entertainment tax situation. The papers used to guesstimate for publication-always round figures. Your figures will certainly be thereabouts particularly the high ones.

Think these are from "Roar Of the Crowd" book. They had to declare Cup game attendances in the 50s. League was 60s onwards iirrc

Both Hibs & Hearts have hit a ceiling where the cost of expansion outweighs the possible gains. ER's footprint has shrunk considerably & Tynnie has always been tiny, I doubt its worth it now for either.


In the 80s and 90s no one would have predicted 16k+ vs St Mirren for eg in 20/30 years time. Footballs changed immeasurably in that time with facilities, ST take up making regular attendance more likely.

It's a shame, but it's where we are. Could both Edinburgh teams average 25k? Yes I think so but the circumstances don't allow.

[Since90+2]

We'd comfortably be selling out ER every week if the league was a genuine possibility. Wasn't so long ago we were averaging over 18k in a two horse race.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. If we were selling out every week the club would be more successful, perhaps not challenging for the league, but regular European qualification.