The richest society in human history in 2023

[Hibernia&Alba]

No, this isn't a city in West Africa, it's Philadelphia, USA, this year. Can you imagine scenes like this on such a scale in any Scottish or British city? We have bad neighbourhoods, areas of urban decay and poverty, but this....
And it's far from being an anomaly; from Oakland in the west to Philadelphia in the east; from Cleveland in the north to Atlanta in the south. That's before you even touch the deep south. The UN described Alabama as having the worst living conditions in the developed world in 2017.

It's a complicated story of how things have degenerated to such an extent in many American towns and cities. But it's baffling to me how the richest country in history, a country that spends trillions each year on its armed forces, is willing to allow anybody to live like this.


https://youtu.be/pll0MaIIi3c

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It's such a sad sight. But this is what happens when you put the interests of the privileged few above all else. This is capitalism-max. No support for public services or even local businesses. Places just turn to decay, rot and ruin with people having nowhere to go and nothing to do. This is the vision that our own "elected" millionaires have in store for us as well.

[grunt]

It's such a sad sight. But this is what happens when you put the interests of the privileged few above all else. This is capitalism-max. No support for public services or even local businesses. Places just turn to decay, rot and ruin with people having nowhere to go and nothing to do. This is the vision that our own "elected" millionaires have in store for us as well.:agree:

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's such a sad sight. But this is what happens when you put the interests of the privileged few above all else. This is capitalism-max. No support for public services or even local businesses. Places just turn to decay, rot and ruin with people having nowhere to go and nothing to do. This is the vision that our own "elected" millionaires have in store for us as well.

:agree:

The American economic model since Reagan is a huge factor, possibly the biggest single factor. It's a complicated confluence of many things that have created what is being called 'the death of middle America', but forty-odd years of neoliberalism and the mantra of trickledown economics is a huge part of it. In real terms the median income in the USA is the same as it was in 1967, whilst incomes at the very top have exploded. Millions of highly paid jobs in manufacturing have been lost, replaced by low wage, low skill, minimal benefits service sector jobs. Education is woefully underfunded, students graduate already tens-of-thousands of dollars in debt. Trade unions have virtually been eradicated in the private sector. The welfare safety net is designed to be as punitive as possible. Policy after policy has made the 'American dream' impossible for more and more people.

I think the old saying about America being a great country in which to be rich, but a terrible country to be poor, is now even more true.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

:agree:

The American economic model since Reagan is a huge factor, possibly the biggest single factor. It's a complicated confluence of many things that have created what is being called 'the death of middle America', but forty-odd years of neoliberalism and the mantra of trickledown economics is a huge part of it. In real terms the median income in the USA is the same as it was in 1967, whilst incomes at the very top have exploded. Millions of highly paid jobs in manufacturing have been lost, replaced by low wage, low skill, minimal benefits service sector jobs. Education is woefully underfunded, students graduate already tens-of-thousands of dollars in debt. Trade unions have virtually been eradicated in the private sector. The welfare safety net is designed to be as punitive as possible. Policy after policy has made the 'American dream' impossible for more and more people.

I think the old saying about America being a great country in which to be rich, but a terrible country to be poor, is now even more true.

That's why they call it the 'American Dream'. Because it was never intended to be anything more than a dream.

[Pretty Boy]

I read an article a while back that argued that in amongst all the 'Simpsons predicted it' stuff there was an obvious shift that is never discussed.

The Simpsons are an upper working class family. Single income family, mother is a 'housewife'. They have a 4 bedroom detached home, run 2 cars, spacious garden, the children partake in many extra curricular activities and they holiday regularly. When the show was devised in the mid to lates 80s and even as it started screening in the late 80s to early 90s that wasn't unusual or unbelievable. Fast forward to 2023 and it makes no sense, it would be an impossibility for almost anyone in the US to live such a life as a single income household.

For me we aren't even living in a truly capitalist society now. Capitalism certainly rewards endeavour and you could argue exploitation but it comes with risk. Now we have a circular neoliberalism that sees private companies and high wealth individuals reap all the rewards with the taxpayer shouldering much of the risk. It has obliterated the aspirational working class and middle class. The latter has been left with just enough to not want too much change and is fed a line about culture wars and various non specific nefarious forces ranging from 'immigrants' to the 'metropolitan elite'. Meanwhile those with extreme wealth continue to get richer, house prices have risen at a rate multiple times that at which wages have and the heart has been ripped out of proud working class communities. Skilled work replaced with low paid service industry jobs as we are fed a diet of cheap goods imported from even more exploited workforces abroad.

It's a system that should be on the verge of implosion. You only have to look at how high a percentage of their incomes even nominally affluent households are having to spend to keep a roof over their heads, the heating on and put food on the table. Then you have those forced into extreme poverty in countries that are theoretically among the richest in the world. It's disgusting.

[Glory Lurker]

It's a country built on survival of the fittest, de'il tak the hindmost. Barely a check on that since 1492 *.

What we are seeing now isn't new.

* - ken that's not the relevant date, but you get my drift.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

It's a country built on survival of the fittest, de'il tak the hindmost. Barely a check on that since 1492.

What we are seeing now isn't new.

I would go further and say that it's a country built on the survival of the fittest while keeping as many people as sick as possible.

[The Tubs]

What you've just described, Pretty Boy, is how I see unrestrained capitalism. It's always required a huge amount of control.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I read an article a while back that argued that in amongst all the 'Simpsons predicted it' stuff there was an obvious shift that is never discussed.

The Simpsons are an upper working class family. Single income family, mother is a 'housewife'. They have a 4 bedroom detached home, run 2 cars, spacious garden, the children partake in many extra curricular activities and they holiday regularly. When the show was devised in the mid to lates 80s and even as it started screening in the late 80s to early 90s that wasn't unusual or unbelievable. Fast forward to 2023 and it makes no sense, it would be an impossibility for almost anyone in the US to live such a life as a single income household.

For me we aren't even living in a truly capitalist society now. Capitalism certainly rewards endeavour and you could argue exploitation but it comes with risk. Now we have a circular neoliberalism that sees private companies and high wealth individuals reap all the rewards with the taxpayer shouldering much of the risk. It has obliterated the aspirational working class and middle class. The latter has been left with just enough to not want too much change and is fed a line about culture wars and various non specific nefarious forces ranging from 'immigrants' to the 'metropolitan elite'. Meanwhile those with extreme wealth continue to get richer, house prices have risen at a rate multiple times that at which wages have and the heart has been ripped out of proud working class communities. Skilled work replaced with low paid service industry jobs as we are fed a diet of cheap goods imported from even more exploited workforces abroad.

It's a system that should be on the verge of implosion. You only have to look at how high a percentage of their incomes even nominally affluent households are having to spend to keep a roof over their heads, the heating on and put food on the table. Then you have those forced into extreme poverty in countries that are theoretically among the richest in the world. It's disgusting.

I agree with your analysis, PB. It seems like the end game is a return to feudalism.

[Ozyhibby]

There are versions of capitalism out there that work though. The problem the UK has is that it seems determined to go down the American route. I’d much rather copy the version Denmark, Iceland etc have.
The older I get, the more I’m veering to the left. The opposite of what seems to happen to most other people.

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[TrumpIsAPeado]

There are versions of capitalism out there that work though. The problem the UK has is that it seems determined to go down the American route. I’d much rather copy the version Denmark, Iceland etc have.


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You're referring to the version with that dirty word "socialism" incorporated into it. A word that has always been dirty in America and a word that is becoming increasingly more dirty in the UK as the only two realistic options of government lurch further to the right.

[Glory Lurker]

Mon the democratic socialism!

[Pretty Boy]

There are versions of capitalism out there that work though. The problem the UK has is that it seems determined to go down the American route. I’d much rather copy the version Denmark, Iceland etc have.
The older I get, the more I’m veering to the left. The opposite of what seems to happen to most other people.

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There's definitely solutions to be had.

I've always been practical in my leftism in that I realise full blown revolution is unlikely and not even particularly palatable.

The conversation isn't even on the table though despite the fact the Scandi model would improve the lives of some of those most vehemently opposed to it.

[marinello59]

There are versions of capitalism out there that work though. The problem the UK has is that it seems determined to go down the American route. I’d much rather copy the version Denmark, Iceland etc have.
The older I get, the more I’m veering to the left. The opposite of what seems to happen to most other people.

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My son says that about me. :greengrin

None of the mainstream parties could claim to be left wing as far as I’m concerned. Not one of them are offering anything radically different from what we already have.

[Sylar]

Not even close to some of the scenes you'd see in parts of California - especially San Francisco. As a sanctuary State, many of the homeless and mentally ill are bussed to places like SF where the climate won't kill them - combine that with rampant fentanyl/herion/cocaine consumption in homeless communities and you're at the edge of the Walking Dead. Which, when contrasted against some of the hyper-wealthy areas of SF, and the wider Bay Area because of the tech industry, and the gap between the haves and the have-nots is utterly striking.

People in places like Mountain View or Palo Alto literally living in RVs at the side of the road because they have complete, gainful employment (in places like auto-shops, barbers, restaurants, cinemas etc), but none of which provide them with enough cash to even rent a ****ing room. It's horrendous just how big the gaps are in American society.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Huge swathes of the US are truly horrible.

the reasons have been mentioned on this thread but if you want a decent analysis of what’s gone wrong there in the last 40 years or so, the Noam Chomsky documentary ‘Requiem for the American Dream’ is a good place to start.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Huge swathes of the US are truly horrible.

the reasons have been mentioned on this thread but if you want a decent analysis of what’s gone wrong there in the last 40 years or so, the Noam Chomsky documentary ‘Requiem for the American Dream’ is a good place to start.

Great documentary. :agree:

May I also suggest 'Inequality for All' with 'Robert Reich'?

[Haymaker]

I work in some of the schools in the area now and then. It really is eye opening. And harrowing.

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[neil7908]

My son says that about me. :greengrin

None of the mainstream parties could claim to be left wing as far as I’m concerned. Not one of them are offering anything radically different from what we already have.

The laugh of it for me is that I actually don't want anything radically different. I want what my parents had - cheap education, affordable housing, job opportunities, proper pay etc.

There never has been a golden age but one of the things that struck me about Brexit was it took a feeling that many have, on the left and right, about the past, but used it to push more and more neoliberalism.

If you ask people about what they liked about the "good old days" the vast are looking for more opportunities, more connection, more community, better life etc. Now, I'm not saying the 60s and 70s were some brilliant time - we've made massive strides culturally since then.

But it strikes me that a lot of stuff from the "better times" was before Reagan and Thatcher, when socialism was much more part of the conversation and our way of life.

[Kato]

The laugh of it for me is that I actually don't want anything radically different. I want what my parents had - cheap education, affordable housing, job opportunities, proper pay etc.

There never has been a golden age but one of the things that struck me about Brexit was it took a feeling that many have, on the left and right, about the past, but used it to push more and more neoliberalism.

If you ask people about what they liked about the "good old days" the vast are looking for more opportunities, more connection, more community, better life etc. Now, I'm not saying the 60s and 70s were some brilliant time - we've made massive strides culturally since then.

But it strikes me that a lot of stuff from the "better times" was before Reagan and Thatcher, when socialism was much more part of the conversation and our way of life.50s-60s-70s probably the lowest the disparity gap had ever been. There is never going to be true equality but as soon as the lines in disparity got too close together neo-Liberalism kicked in.

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[Keith_M]

That's awful.


I have relatives in the US who live what you might call a comfortable, middle-class lifestyle.

I remember my sister recounting a discussion with one of them (my uncle) and his view was that people like this only have themselves to blame, as they clearly just don't work hard enough. As you can imagine, she was quite disgusted with his PoV

[archie]

If you want to see the collapse of social infrastructure then the US (and some parts of Canada) see it writ large. Oddly some of the wildest times are around 7.00 in the morning when people have been turfed from wherever they found shelter. This isn't 'just' homelessness but also a lack of provision for serious mentally ill people coupled with addiction fallout.

Some cities are putting in measures to require street dwellers to move to designated accommodation.TBH I find that pretty authoritarian, but it seems popular with locals. I thought I was pretty unshockable, but the west coast knocked that out of me

[archie]

He Was Handcuffed and Hospitalized. Now He’s on Track for Housing. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/25/nyregion/mentally-ill-homeless-nyc.html?unlocked_article_code=YQOyNuUuRbtbRohxoIl gAvVH0zjqcqtfj6amFy3vUNXB0NTXD7j-4Pt-MB94697cIsHZ4j_hSy3Cu694STcMCCM4gwdoevcULUu5kIawFC o69n4930NUe7yhWGQ9fMpVGyf9pTt97hffaEFmjAxahTzO_eoM eQQ-af-Nbv1bnTGZ-hx881GvLPt2yShXFyQQJkt_5UH4oeRImxGl8gbVJiM32cJb3rF fWf47rEdeTtqoYNkkltNmPFEZ8t2Yc_eul4aV9ZUXcBi2enqD_ Sa_99InQ6cG10nt6y90w-0CpNiTK359qovMcMgmjcU49MVl9tHzFIFV8T7l458Mw0-lxmJ6vOz1&smid=nytcore-android-share

[Hibernia&Alba]

Camden, New Jersey, just across the river from Philadelphia. Once a manufacturing hub, then all the jobs were shipped overseas....



https://youtu.be/Q3uPX10SSEU

[Bridge hibs]

Watched a documentary a few years back on Baltimore, ****ing grim and I was brought up in some ****ty areas

[Hibernia&Alba]

Watched a documentary a few years back on Baltimore, ****ing grim and I was brought up in some ****ty areas

Baltimore, Maryland, 2022. It just goes on and on


https://youtu.be/5mX2t23Lb6Q

[Hibernia&Alba]

The problems run very deep and won't be easily solved. It isn't just the largest urban centres that this effects; it seems to exist in every region, in a country where inequality is growing ever wider. Rural Arkansas in 2023:


https://youtu.be/Ba3itBPqGo4

[Bristolhibby]

Watched a documentary a few years back on Baltimore, ****ing grim and I was brought up in some ****ty areas

Watch the Wire.

It’s brilliant, set in Baltimore. Doesn’t sound like anything has changed in 20 years.

J

[Hibernia&Alba]

Imagine doing a list of the thirty most crime infested cities and huge places like New York, Boston and Los Angeles can't even make the cut. What the hell is going on? :confused: All regions represented, demonstrating something is going seriously awry.


https://youtu.be/R65p1nkZxcI

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Watched a documentary a few years back on Baltimore, ****ing grim and I was brought up in some ****ty areas

Been to Baltimore and it really is grim as ****


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[Haymaker]

Camden, New Jersey, just across the river from Philadelphia. Once a manufacturing hub, then all the jobs were shipped overseas....



https://youtu.be/Q3uPX10SSEUYep. Hate having to go near Camden for work. Trenton too. Last time I was in Trenton I thought I was about to be carjacked.

Last time I was working in Philly, we went through the neighborhoods above (we were working with under privilege kids in a summer program) and I said to my buddy who was driving "run the stop signs and if you hear a gun shot just keep ****ing driving."

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[Haymaker]

Imagine doing a list of the thirty most crime infested cities and huge places like New York, Boston and Los Angeles can't even make the cut. What the hell is going on? :confused: All regions represented, demonstrating something is going seriously awry.


https://youtu.be/R65p1nkZxcINew York, for its size, is actually relatively safe. Well, Manhattan is. But that's probably the fact there's an outrageous police presence back by Marines and Army in certain spaces.

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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Yep. Hate having to go near Camden for work. Trenton too. Last time I was in Trenton I thought I was about to be carjacked.

Last time I was working in Philly, we went through the neighborhoods above (we were working with under privilege kids in a summer program) and I said to my buddy who was driving "run the stop signs and if you hear a gun shot just keep ****ing driving."

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Actually found Philly felt really safe but then again I was really just seeing the touristy bits


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[Haymaker]

Actually found Philly felt really safe but then again I was really just seeing the touristy bits


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOh the city centre is fine, baring the odd weirdo like all big cities, I was there for a convention in January and it was great. But those outer neighborhoods are... wow.

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[Hibbyradge]

The laugh of it for me is that I actually don't want anything radically different. I want what my parents had - cheap education, affordable housing, job opportunities, proper pay etc.

There never has been a golden age but one of the things that struck me about Brexit was it took a feeling that many have, on the left and right, about the past, but used it to push more and more neoliberalism.

If you ask people about what they liked about the "good old days" the vast are looking for more opportunities, more connection, more community, better life etc. Now, I'm not saying the 60s and 70s were some brilliant time - we've made massive strides culturally since then.

But it strikes me that a lot of stuff from the "better times" was before Reagan and Thatcher, when socialism was much more part of the conversation and our way of life.

When I started work I was paying 33% income tax.

The highest rate was about 85% although I think 95% might have been a thing too.

Thatcher reduced the rates. 33 became 30. The highest was dropped to 60.

Goodbye real socialist governments.

[Colr]

No, this isn't a city in West Africa, it's Philadelphia, USA, this year. Can you imagine scenes like this on such a scale in any Scottish or British city? We have bad neighbourhoods, areas of urban decay and poverty, but this....
And it's far from being an anomaly; from Oakland in the west to Philadelphia in the east; from Cleveland in the north to Atlanta in the south. That's before you even touch the deep south. The UN described Alabama as having the worst living conditions in the developed world in 2017.

It's a complicated story of how things have degenerated to such an extent in many American towns and cities. But it's baffling to me how the richest country in history, a country that spends trillions each year on its armed forces, is willing to allow anybody to live like this.


https://youtu.be/pll0MaIIi3c

They spend as much as the UK per head on public health then almost as much on top of that in private health.

The Tories think this is a good model!

[Curried]

A lot of terrible images of USA cities and urban poor here. A lot of which reminds me of the south side of Glasgow in the early 80's.

[Hibernia&Alba]

A lot of terrible images of USA cities and urban poor here. A lot of which reminds me of the south side of Glasgow in the early 80's.

Yes, the poorest parts of Glasgow were hellish. We still have some terrible places in the UK, but the scale of the problems is so different. It's estimated that today there are more than fifty thousand homeless people in Los Angeles alone. That's a city in itself. Then there are all those who aren't officially homeless but are living in cars or vans, many of whom are working people. I maintain that much of it (though by no means all) is a consequence of the past forty-odd years of neoliberal economics, implemented by both parties. So many places have been hollowed out and social mobility has collapsed. A small section of society has gotten unimaginably wealthy, and it's they who control the political system and the media, leaving millions disenfranchised.

[Curried]

Yes, the poorest parts of Glasgow were hellish. We still have some terrible places in the UK, but the scale of the problems is so different. It's estimated that today there are more than fifty thousand homeless people in Los Angeles alone. That's a city in itself. Then there are all those who aren't officially homeless but are living in cars or vans, many of whom are working people. I maintain that much of it (though by no means all) is a consequence of the past forty-odd years of neoliberal economics, implemented by both parties. So many places have been hollowed out and social mobility has collapsed. A small section of society has gotten unimaginably wealthy, and it's they who control the political system and the media, leaving millions disenfranchised.

Superb take...and on the money .:aok:

I had a member of the family in Phli, Washington and NYC last month and the call was that the Bronx looks like Glasgow.