US and China - New Cold War?

[neil7908]

After Anthony Blinkens recent visit, it looked like a tentative, yet positive step forward in relations between the US and China.

But now Biden has decided to trash any progress by calling Xi a dictator.

It feels inevitable that we are heading into a new Cold War. And if you thought, Brexit, covid and Ukraine were bad, well this going to be a whole new level...

[Ozyhibby]

After Anthony Blinkens recent visit, it looked like a tentative, yet positive step forward in relations between the US and China.

But now Biden has decided to trash any progress by calling Xi a dictator.

It feels inevitable that we are heading into a new Cold War. And if you thought, Brexit, covid and Ukraine were bad, well this going to be a whole new level...

I think we have been in a Cold War for a while now. Ever since Xi became an actual dictator.


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[Stairway 2 7]

After Anthony Blinkens recent visit, it looked like a tentative, yet positive step forward in relations between the US and China.

But now Biden has decided to trash any progress by calling Xi a dictator.

It feels inevitable that we are heading into a new Cold War. And if you thought, Brexit, covid and Ukraine were bad, well this going to be a whole new level...

Xi is a vile dictator who treats his own people ie the uhgurs like subhuman

[neil7908]

Xi is a vile dictator who treats his own people ie the uhgurs like subhuman

What was the point of Blinken going out there then?

I think it's really poor leadership. Bizarre approach to diplomacy. This is the same guy (Biden) that has been happy to welcome Mohammed bin Salman back into the fold. And to abandon the Afghan people to the Taliban.

Whatever we think China is here to stay and we have massively linked our economy to theirs. After all the hardship we have, and are facing from the crises I've noted above, I'd love to see a US leader accept the reality of America's position in the world and exercise some diplomacy.

[Stairway 2 7]

What was the point of Blinken going out there then?

I think it's really poor leadership. Bizarre approach to diplomacy. This is the same guy (Biden) that has been happy to welcome Mohammed bin Salman back into the fold. And to abandon the Afghan people to the Taliban.

Whatever we think China is here to stay and we have massively linked our economy to theirs. After all the hardship we have, and are facing from the crises I've noted above, I'd love to see a US leader accept the reality of America's position in the world and exercise some diplomacy.

Blinken is going for boring diplomatic reasons. The US and China are both pretty nasty groups to be fair. Although china openly treat their subjects like dirt to be surveyed and murdered

[Prof. Shaggy]

I think we have been in a Cold War for a while now. Ever since Xi became an actual dictator.


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I've always wondered whether it's a good thing that the USA is there to stand up to all these dictators or whether people become "dictators" when the USA wants to stand up to them.

[Ozyhibby]

I've always wondered whether it's a good thing that the USA is there to stand up to all these dictators or whether people become "dictators" when the USA wants to stand up to them.

Dictators have a happy habit of springing up even in parts of the world America tends to ignore.


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[Prof. Shaggy]

Dictators have a happy habit of springing up even in parts of the world America tends to ignore.


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Struggling to think where that might be.

[Stairway 2 7]

Struggling to think where that might be.

China has far far more influence in huge sectors of Africa, dictator aplenty in the areas.

[Prof. Shaggy]

China has far far more influence in huge sectors of Africa, dictator aplenty in the areas.

Can't remember the last time Chinese jets bombed anywhere in Africa.

[Stairway 2 7]

Can't remember the last time Chinese jets bombed anywhere in Africa.

Your changing it. You said you can't think of dictators in places US ignores. China has colonised Africa a lot smarter than with bombs. They have done it with infrastructure projects and debt. Same with areas in the Pacific, like building ports and army bases in PNG.

As for bombing. Russian jets flattened half of Syria in a genocide that never got the news coverage in the West. Absolutely vile stuff, thermo and chemical weapons. The dictator Assad is still in power due to it

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Xi is a vile dictator who treats his own people ie the uhgurs like subhuman

He'd fit in well at Westminster or the US Congress then. We're no more democratic than they are. We just pretend like we are on the surface.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Blinken is going for boring diplomatic reasons. The US and China are both pretty nasty groups to be fair. Although china openly treat their subjects like dirt to be surveyed and murdered

While the US does it more secretively.

[Ozyhibby]

He'd fit in well at Westminster or the US Congress then. We're no more democratic than they are. We just pretend like we are on the surface.

That’s nonsense. While we are not a full democracy, we are a lot closer than China or Russia.


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[Smartie]

That’s nonsense. While we are not a full democracy, we are a lot closer than China or Russia.


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I certainly know where I'd rather live, speak, and cast the vote I have, all whilst acknowledging that we're imperfect.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

That’s nonsense. While we are not a full democracy, we are a lot closer than China or Russia.


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We're not a democracy at all. We just hide the fact that we're not better. The cracks are beginning to show more and more as time goes on though.

[Smartie]

We're not a democracy at all. We just hide the fact that we're not better. The cracks are beginning to show more and more as time goes on though.

Whilst I'm not for a second going to argue that we're perfect, I think there's a real danger in equating ourselves to autocracies and dictatorships. A bit of hyperbole here and there is also fine but we need to be a bit careful we don't go too far with it.

Do we have opposition politicians suffering fates like Alexei Navalny's?

If you truly believed that the whole system was rotten, what do you believe are the true barriers to you getting up and doing something about it?

I think serious questions need to be asked as to how we end up with the awful presidential candidates the Americans seem to have to choose between and I wonder why it is that Starmer is going to essential have to turn into a Tory lite in order to get elected.

But I am grateful every day that we can have this free conversation here, that if I was so inclined I could take to a soapbox at Speaker's corner and have my say, or if I was sufficiently enraged that I could start / join a political party of my choice and do something about it.

We need to be very concerned about the Tories undermining our rights and taking us closer to some of the countries mentioned and I think we need to be doing more about it, but I also think we've got a long way to go yet.

[AgentDaleCooper]

He'd fit in well at Westminster or the US Congress then. We're no more democratic than they are. We just pretend like we are on the surface.

Even if we just pretend, as you say, that pretence does result in a degree of accountability.

As pathetic as the Labour party are, we have had consequential elections, and the material worsening of conditions as a result of Tory policy is very plain for all to see - suffice to say, we have a degree of choice. Folk in China's choice is simply quiet acceptance or a bullet in the head.

[AgentDaleCooper]

We're not a democracy at all. We just hide the fact that we're not better. The cracks are beginning to show more and more as time goes on though.

It's a rubbish democracy, with ludicrois amounts of power concentrated in small clutches of awful, wealthy people. We also export a great deal of our violence to other countries where people are a bit browner than us. We are rotten.

But we have choices - brexit, for example, was a choice.

You don't get that in China.

[Sylar]

Your changing it. You said you can't think of dictators in places US ignores. China has colonised Africa a lot smarter than with bombs. They have done it with infrastructure projects and debt. Same with areas in the Pacific, like building ports and army bases in PNG.

As for bombing. Russian jets flattened half of Syria in a genocide that never got the news coverage in the West. Absolutely vile stuff, thermo and chemical weapons. The dictator Assad is still in power due to it

I may be disagreeing with you on the submersible thread, but I wholeheartedly agree with you here.

The amount of investment China has put into African nations in return for access to vital resources into the future (not just capital) is absolutely eye-watering - their so-called 'Belt and Road Initiative'. The control it might give China on key natural resources into the future is a scary prospect - especially when they already have a near monopoly on things like rare-earth minerals concentrated in their own borders.

[Ozyhibby]

I may be disagreeing with you on the submersible thread, but I wholeheartedly agree with you here.

The amount of investment China has put into African nations in return for access to vital resources into the future (not just capital) is absolutely eye-watering - their so-called 'Belt and Road Initiative'. The control it might give China on key natural resources into the future is a scary prospect - especially when they already have a near monopoly on things like rare-earth minerals concentrated in their own borders.

Do China have much in the way of a resources monopoly within their own borders? Always thought of it as pretty resource poor?


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[Sylar]

Do China have much in the way of a resources monopoly within their own borders? Always thought of it as pretty resource poor?


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They are quite resource poor in some areas, hence making these investments in return for infrastructure provision. But it's a messy landscape.

SOME resources they have a global monopoly on - rare earth's are a major part of that, given their centrality in electronics/renewable energy systems etc.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Whilst I'm not for a second going to argue that we're perfect, I think there's a real danger in equating ourselves to autocracies and dictatorships. A bit of hyperbole here and there is also fine but we need to be a bit careful we don't go too far with it.

Do we have opposition politicians suffering fates like Alexei Navalny's?

If you truly believed that the whole system was rotten, what do you believe are the true barriers to you getting up and doing something about it?

I think serious questions need to be asked as to how we end up with the awful presidential candidates the Americans seem to have to choose between and I wonder why it is that Starmer is going to essential have to turn into a Tory lite in order to get elected.

But I am grateful every day that we can have this free conversation here, that if I was so inclined I could take to a soapbox at Speaker's corner and have my say, or if I was sufficiently enraged that I could start / join a political party of my choice and do something about it.

We need to be very concerned about the Tories undermining our rights and taking us closer to some of the countries mentioned and I think we need to be doing more about it, but I also think we've got a long way to go yet.

Is it really hyperbole though? Or are we just kidding ourselves that it's hyperbole, because we fear the truth? We certainly have freedom without effect. We're allowed to do things as long as it doesn't ultimately change anything. People can meet up in their huts and talk about how rotten the system is and ways to ultimately change it. They're allowed to do that. But the moment they attempt to take any kind of active action against the system, they become terrorists in the eye of that system. Freedom without effect isn't really freedom, is it?

[Smartie]

Is it really hyperbole though? Or are we just kidding ourselves that it's hyperbole, because we fear the truth? We certainly have freedom without effect. We're allowed to do things as long as it doesn't ultimately change anything. People can meet up in their huts and talk about how rotten the system is and ways to ultimately change it. They're allowed to do that. But the moment they attempt to take any kind of active action against the system, they become terrorists in the eye of that system. Freedom without effect isn't really freedom, is it?

What exactly would you like to change and what do you see as being the barriers to being able to do it?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What exactly is it that you'd like to change and what do you see as being the barriers to being able to do it?

I would like to see real options. Political parties saying what they actually mean would be a good start. Instead of just saying what they think people want to hear to get themselves on the gravy train, so they can then just press on with the same agenda where the previous party left off. It's no accident that things continue to get progressively worse over time. It's a design feature of the very system we're bound to.

[Smartie]

I would like to see real options. Political parties saying what they actually mean would be a good start. Instead of just saying what they think people want to hear to get themselves on the gravy train, so they can then just press on with the same agenda where the previous party left off. It's no accident that things continue to get progressively worse over time. It's a design feature of the very system we're bound to.

I'm not sure this really suggests that there is an issue with our democracy - more, it's just one of the negative features of having a democracy (sameyness).

It's certainly preferable to autocracy or dictatorship, unless you happened to have a set of values that aligned exactly with the dictator.

You're free and open to set up any party, take forward any set of values, beliefs or policies and try to get folk on your side. Whether or not people buy into it is another story.

I detest the Tories. I find Starmer floundering around trying to be Tory enough to not scare all the voters away so he can convert his open goal nauseating. I find Scotland's continuing tolerance of the situation and inability to think we can do better bewildering.

I don't think the game's a bogey though, I'm just not getting my own way, and that happens in a democracy. It's all held together with the consent of the losers.

That's why I take issue with the likes of Johnson, Trump and others who cry foul rather than understand how and why they might be facing unfortunate consequences of their own words and actions.

It's often said that democracy is crap and I'd agree. It's still the least crap of all the available options though, by a long way.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I'm not sure this really suggests that there is an issue with our democracy - more, it's just one of the negative features of having a democracy (sameyness).

It's certainly preferable to autocracy or dictatorship, unless you happened to have a set of values that aligned exactly with the dictator.

You're free and open to set up any party, take forward any set of values, beliefs or policies and try to get folk on your side. Whether or not people buy into it is another story.

I detest the Tories. I find Starmer floundering around trying to be Tory enough to not scare all the voters away so he can convert his open goal nauseating. I find Scotland's continuing tolerance of the situation and inability to think we can do better bewildering.

I don't think the game's a bogey though, I'm just not getting my own way, and that happens in a democracy. It's all held together with the consent of the losers.

That's why I take issue with the likes of Johnson, Trump and others who cry foul rather than understand how and why they might be facing unfortunate consequences of their own words and actions.

It's often said that democracy is crap and I'd agree. It's still the least crap of all the available options though, by a long way.

Isn't the purpose of democracy to offer real variety? Not just sameyness? If all we have is sameyness, then it is a dictatorship, no matter how many times the faces change on the surface of it.

Sure, we can set up our own parties (if we have enough financial privilege to do so). But in order for that party to have any real hope of gaining any power within the system, it has to be bankrolled by millionaire donors and they're not going to bankroll a party that offers any genuine change to the system, because the current system suits them perfectly as it is. It's the small minority that ultimately rules the roost as a result of this. So where is the democracy in that?

We're seeing the effect of this increasingly more over time as the financially privileged minority take more and more away from us over time (under the authority of whatever government is in place), with no end in sight.

[Smartie]

Isn't the purpose of democracy to offer real variety? Not just sameyness? If all we have is sameyness, then it is a dictatorship, no matter how many times the faces change on the surface of it.

Sure, we can set up our own parties (if we have enough financial privilege to do so). But in order for that party to have any real hope of gaining any power within the system, it has to be bankrolled by millionaire donors and they're not going to bankroll a party that offers any genuine change to the system, because the current system suits them perfectly as it is. It's the small minority that ultimately rules the roost as a result of this. So where is the democracy in that?

We're seeing the effect of this increasingly more over time as the financially privileged minority take more and more away from us over time (under the authority of whatever government is in place), with no end in sight.

Not sure whether or not offering real variety is the responsibility of democracy. I'd have thought it would be more a case of democracy allowing the people to have what they want. Whether we like it or not (I really don't like it FWIW) we're getting what we want. The current government were voted in in their droves to "get Brexit done". The LibDems have offered change, such as proportional representation (something I think would be excellent btw, would help with the "variety" angle and ensure that more people are properly represented) but have been rejected at the polls by the electorate. The Scottish population rejected independence, the UK population voted for Brexit. Sometimes folk believe the media and their "project fear", sometimes they rail hard against it.


The current situation strikes me as being "end days of capitalism" rather than anything to do with democracy. I'm not going to argue with your point about too much power and resource being in the hands of too few, I agree, but I think that pendulum swings back. People, majorities and consensus have power and when the balance tips too far one way there is an inevitability that it will tip back the other, and I suspect we'll see that happen over the next wee while.

I'm not going to defend a multitude of things I don't like about where we currently find ourselves. I just don't find the problems insurmountable, and I sure as hell don't look longingly towards Russia or China.

[Ozyhibby]

Democracy doesn’t protect the people from crap decisions. Those have consequences.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Democracy doesn’t protect the people from crap decisions. Those have consequences.


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It seems to be only crap decisions, despite the consequences. But that's what happens when a small minority of highly privileged people pull the strings to benefit themselves and themselves alone. That's not democracy in my view.

[archie]

It seems to be only crap decisions, despite the consequences. But that's what happens when a small minority of highly privileged people pull the strings to benefit themselves and themselves alone. That's not democracy in my view.
What do you think politics is like in China?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

What do you think politics is like in China?

Like yourself, I don't live in China. But I would think that it certainly isn't great. I never came on this thread to say that China is somehow better. But the fact that we're using the likes of China and Russia to justify the way things are here, shows just how low our standards for democracy are here.

[archie]

Like yourself, I don't live in China. But I would think that it certainly isn't great. I never came on this thread to say that China is somehow better. But the fact that we're using the likes of China and Russia to justify the way things are here, shows just how low our standards for democracy are here.

But you think it is the same as the UK?

[Smartie]

Like yourself, I don't live in China. But I would think that it certainly isn't great. I never came on this thread to say that China is somehow better. But the fact that we're using the likes of China and Russia to justify the way things are here, shows just how low our standards for democracy are here.

Is the issue we're going through to do with the state of our democracy or that currently our population appear to be total muppets, making repeatedly poor decisions?

Did you not think that Corbyn offered an alternative vision? Yes, the media didn't like it, railed against it and influenced where they could but the only thing that mattered was that it was rejected by the population.

Will the LibDems be offering as part of their next manifesto a return to the EU?

Which realistic options out there do you feel you would like that are not on offer? The unfortunate fact we sometimes have to get our heads around in a democracy is that not enough people believe in what we currently believe in order for it to become a reality and for us to get our own way.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

But you think it is the same as the UK?

I think there are striking similarities under the surface of it all. We put up a good facade though.

[archie]

I think there are striking similarities under the surface of it all. We put up a good facade though.

The way you post here would be very problematic for you in China.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Is the issue we're going through to do with the state of our democracy or that currently our population appear to be total muppets, making repeatedly poor decisions?

Did you not think that Corbyn offered an alternative vision? Yes, the media didn't like it, railed against it and influenced where they could but the only thing that mattered was that it was rejected by the population.

Will the LibDems be offering as part of their next manifesto a return to the EU?

Which realistic options out there do you feel you would like that are not on offer? The unfortunate fact we sometimes have to get our heads around in a democracy is that not enough people believe in what we currently believe in order for it to become a reality and for us to get our own way.

Don't our population always appear to be total muppet's that repeatedly make poor decisions? That's what happens when you have a political system and media that is owned and controlled by the financial elite. The richest man in Westminster right now is none other than the PM himself. But even when he is replaced, it's going to be by yet another generic financially privileged multi-millionaire.

It's not that the general population are actually muppet's though, it's that we're ultimately manipulated throughout the course of our lives through media influences to believe that whatever is in the best interests of the financial elite is ultimately in our own best interests.

I'm glad you mentioned the media though. Because I'd like your honest opinion on this. What is the difference between living in a country with a media owned and controlled by the financially privileged, which is used to get us to accept the system that we're in and a country where the media is owned by Government directly, which is used to get the people in that country to accept the system that they are in?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The way you post here would be very problematic for you in China.

If it had any effect on anything then sure. As it would be here, if it had any effect on anything.

[Ozyhibby]

Also, in our system, it’s not just elected politicians who achieve change. Protest groups can push political parties in different directions.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Also, in our system, it’s not just elected politicians who achieve change. Protest groups can push political parties in different directions.


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Political parties will leech onto narratives if the political calculus suggests that it will improve their chances of getting into Government. Then the direction of the party changes again to reflect and maintain the status quo.

[archie]

If it had any effect on anything then sure. As it would be here, if it had any effect on anything.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/03/restrictions-online-freedom-expression-china/chinas-domestic-restrictions-online-freedom

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/03/restrictions-online-freedom-expression-china/chinas-domestic-restrictions-online-freedom

I afraid to click in case Liz Truss comes back to haunt us.[emoji23]


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[Smartie]

Don't our population always appear to be total muppet's that repeatedly make poor decisions? That's what happens when you have a political system and media that is owned and controlled by the financial elite. The richest man in Westminster right now is none other than the PM himself. But even when he is replaced, it's going to be by yet another generic financially privileged multi-millionaire.

It's not that the general population are actually muppet's though, it's that we're ultimately manipulated throughout the course of our lives through media influences to believe that whatever is in the best interests of the financial elite is ultimately in our own best interests.

I'm glad you mentioned the media though. Because I'd like your honest opinion on this. What is the difference between living in a country with a media owned and controlled by the financially privileged, which is used to get us to accept the system that we're in and a country where the media is owned by Government directly, which is used to get the people in that country to accept the system that they are in?

"The media" - where to start talking about them.

Has the growth in support for Scottish independence been as a result of positive media manipulation by billionaires or has something else happened there?

I don't love that the super rich have the effect on the news and media that they do but I've learnt to accept it.

Sky News is great. The Guardian is a very decent "newspaper" with very good writers and loads of readers (of the online edition). There are many fantastic journalists out there bringing us news through ever changing times for their profession.

I loathe the Daily Mail, the Sun etc but in a liberal democracy I have the right to ignore them.

It doesn't feel to me like it's all rotten. I don't like a great deal of what's going on right now and I think "the good guys" can do a whole lot more to win their respective arguments but this a serious case of "be careful what you wish for". There have been sinister nudges from the Tories towards what it's like in China (re protest, manipulation of the BBC, prorogation of parliament and alterations to laws etc) and it needs nipped firmly in the bud.

I honestly don't think what we have compares to China etc.

It could be very strongly argued that in the days of social media, the influence of the traditional media has been massively weakened. I'm more likely to be won over by your argument than by Rupert Murdoch's.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/03/restrictions-online-freedom-expression-china/chinas-domestic-restrictions-online-freedom

Yes, we like to talk about surveillance in countries like China while pretending that it isn't a thing here as well. The American's also lapped up that narrative until somebody was brave enough to blow the whole scandal wide open.

It's very convenient for the powers that be to get us to look over in that direction. Anything to distract us from what is occurring right in front of us.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

"The media" - where to start talking about them.

Has the growth in support for Scottish independence been as a result of positive media manipulation by billionaires or has something else happened there?

I don't love that the super rich have the effect on the news and media that they do but I've learnt to accept it.

Sky News is great. The Guardian is a very decent "newspaper" with very good writers and loads of readers (of the online edition). There are many fantastic journalists out there bringing us news through ever changing times for their profession.

I loathe the Daily Mail, the Sun etc but in a liberal democracy I have the right to ignore them.

It doesn't feel to me like it's all rotten. I don't like a great deal of what's going on right now and I think "the good guys" can do a whole lot more to win their respective arguments but this a serious case of "be careful what you wish for". There have been sinister nudges from the Tories towards what it's like in China (re protest, manipulation of the BBC, prorogation of parliament and alterations to laws etc) and it needs nipped firmly in the bud.

I honestly don't think what we have compares to China etc.

It could be very strongly argued that in the days of social media, the influence of the traditional media has been massively weakened. I'm more likely to be won over by your argument than by Rupert Murdoch's.

Even the media sources that you personally consider to be decent, still hung Jeremy Corbyn out to dry. All because he was ultimately perceived as a threat to this very system. They know how to present themselves in a decent manner, when they know their narratives won't present any immediate danger to that system. But the moment something comes along that is considered an immediate threat to it, the narratives take a sharp turn.

[archie]

Yes, we like to talk about surveillance in countries like China while pretending that it isn't a thing here as well. The American's also lapped up that narrative until somebody was brave enough to blow the whole scandal wide open.

It's very convenient for the powers that be to get us to look over in that direction. Anything to distract us from what is occurring right in front of us.

Ok - you are saying that social media is controlled in the UK the same way as it is in China?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Ok - you are saying that social media is controlled in the UK the same way as it is in China?

Our Government doesn't need to control social media directly. They get the owners of the social media platforms to share user data with them in exchange for tax breaks and subsidies. Nothing you post online is inaccessible by government authorities. If they need to gather information on you, they can. They don't need your permission.

[Smartie]

Even the media sources that you personally consider to be decent, still hung Jeremy Corbyn out to dry. All because he was ultimately perceived as a threat to this very system. They know how to present themselves in a decent manner, when they know their narratives won't present any immediate danger to that system. But the moment something comes along that is considered an immediate threat to it, the narratives take a sharp turn.

Maybe so.

Personally I feel like someone younger, more handsome, more charisma and a bit more media savvy than Corbyn but with exactly the same policies could end up having the media and the British public eating out of their hands. There is a huge rump of youngsters out there looking for someone to fight their corner imo...

The media moguls want people watching their channels / ads and they want people reading their papers / the ads. They are rich business people who want to make money and they'll largely do what is needed to make that happen. Sure, they like having their influence but I'm not convinced it's all about that.

I still think the power lies with the people. There just aren't enough people out there right now who are unhappy enough with what's going on to want to change anything. That may change over the next few years.

I don't think there's any sort of conspiracy at play, but I do think the public need to think a bit about what they're seeing/ hearing and be appropriately cynical about why they're seeing / hearing it.

[archie]

Our Government doesn't need to control social media directly. They get the owners of the social media platforms to share user data with them in exchange for tax breaks and subsidies. Nothing you post online is inaccessible by government authorities. If they need to gather information on you, they can. They don't need your permission.

Is that a yes?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Is that a yes?

Ah, you're one of these "yes or no" people who will be quick to criticise the response while taking no interest in the fundamental context. I think we're done here.

[Stairway 2 7]

This thread is utterly utterly ridiculous, it's really a waste of people's time pointing out the obvious

[archie]

Ah, you're one of these "yes or no" people who will be quick to criticise the response while taking no interest in the fundamental context. I think we're done here.

It's a yes or no question.

[Prof. Shaggy]

Your changing it. You said you can't think of dictators in places US ignores. China has colonised Africa a lot smarter than with bombs. They have done it with infrastructure projects and debt. Same with areas in the Pacific, like building ports and army bases in PNG.

As for bombing. Russian jets flattened half of Syria in a genocide that never got the news coverage in the West. Absolutely vile stuff, thermo and chemical weapons. The dictator Assad is still in power due to it

I've been out all day and missed most of what has followed.

Regardless. I've changed nothing in what I wrote. I think you've missed the actual point of my previous post.

China's support for infrastructure projects in the global south is what? Is it aggressive, threatening, bullying?
Is it an attempt to influence others?
Is it a crime?
The Chinese supported Jonas Savimbi's terrorist UNITA in Angola. They ended up on the same side as apartheid South Africa and the USA. The wrong side.

Personally I'm happier with them building railway lines and ports.

I don't know why you've brought Russia and Syria into this. I suppose the relevance for my point was George Bush snr's "Syria's had a bum rap" comment in 1991.
Assad (snr) kind of stopped being a "dictator" for a while...

But, really!

Do you want to compare it to US policy in the Congo, in Vietnam, Chile, Central America, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya etc, etc?

[Glory Lurker]

I'm definitely USA in this one.

[neil7908]

The thread has gone in a direction I wasn't initially intending, which is fine, but I'm more interested in how the west deals with China rather than picking sides, as the answer to that is pretty obvious.

I'm just sick and tired of the sabre rattling stuff from Biden. Dare I say it, I think Sunak has managed things a bit better.

Biden's comment is something I would expect from Trump. It does nothing to work on the relationship between the two countries. China is immensely powerful and won't be pushed around by the US. It has had the same system of Government for 70 odd years - why have we been doing business with them the last few decades if its such a problem? His comment is totally bizzare after sending Blinken, and appearing to try and mend relations.

What we think or say about China does nothing to change the reality. It's just empty, macho rhetoric that pushes us closer to conflict.

And if we think diverging from Russia economically has been painful, well doing so with China would be several magnitudes worse.

Who here is keen for another massive, 2008 style crash? After Brexit, covid and Ukraine war, I'd really like to do what we can to avoid destroying the global economy.

[Ozyhibby]

The thread has gone in a direction I wasn't initially intending, which is fine, but I'm more interested in how the west deals with China rather than picking sides, as the answer to that is pretty obvious.

I'm just sick and tired of the sabre rattling stuff from Biden. Dare I say it, I think Sunak has managed things a bit better.

Biden's comment is something I would expect from Trump. It does nothing to work on the relationship between the two countries. China is immensely powerful and won't be pushed around by the US. It has had the same system of Government for 70 odd years - why have we been doing business with them the last few decades if its such a problem? His comment is totally bizzare after sending Blinken, and appearing to try and mend relations.

What we think or say about China does nothing to change the reality. It's just empty, macho rhetoric that pushes us closer to conflict.

And if we think diverging from Russia economically has been painful, well doing so with China would be several magnitudes worse.

Who here is keen for another massive, 2008 style crash? After Brexit, covid and Ukraine war, I'd really like to do what we can to avoid destroying the global economy.

It hasn’t had the same system of govt for last 70 years. There has been a change and Xi has now become a dictator. It has also changed its outlook to become much more militarily aggressive. When China changed, the US changed its position.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

Is the issue we're going through to do with the state of our democracy or that currently our population appear to be total muppets, making repeatedly poor decisions?

Did you not think that Corbyn offered an alternative vision? Yes, the media didn't like it, railed against it and influenced where they could but the only thing that mattered was that it was rejected by the population.

Will the LibDems be offering as part of their next manifesto a return to the EU?

Which realistic options out there do you feel you would like that are not on offer? The unfortunate fact we sometimes have to get our heads around in a democracy is that not enough people believe in what we currently believe in order for it to become a reality and for us to get our own way.Isn't the fact that the population appear to be total Muppets not largely due to the control over the media that certain political parties seem to enjoy. I bet there's dictatorships that look on enviously at the way the media is in the UK.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Taiwan says 11 Chinese aircraft crossed the Taiwan Strait median line (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/taiwan-says-11-chinese-aircraft-crossed-the-taiwan-strait-median-line/ar-AA1deELm?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=e59d547523984bec8bc03008b293cbd1&ei=78)


must be quite stressful living in Taiwan knowing that one day something will go wrong and it will be for real and not just the usual Chinese intimidation.