Woman jailed for DIY abortion.

[500miles]

Deeply troubling story this:

"A woman has been jailed for carrying out a late abortion on her baby of 32-34 weeks.

The 44-year-old mother of three obtained pills from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS) during lockdown, under laws introduced in the pandemic.

They allowed women up to 10 weeks pregnant to have a phone consultation and receive abortion pills in the post to take at home.

The woman - who Sky News is not naming - lied to the service and claimed she was seven weeks pregnant.

After taking the pills, her 32-34 week foetus was stillborn.

The termination was eight to 10 weeks later than the 24-week legal period for having an abortion in England, Scotland and Wales.

The Crown Prosecution Service said the woman had carried out web searches including: "Can being hit in the stomach cause a miscarriage?", "Where can I buy abortion pills in the UK?", and "I need to have an abortion but I'm past 24 weeks".

She took the two abortion pills on 11 May 2020 and paramedics came twice after she reported a miscarriage.

The woman initially lied and said she wasn't pregnant, and then made a second call after her daughter was born.

Attempts to resuscitate the baby were unsuccessful.

That evening, the woman searched: "Could I go to jail for aborting my child at 30 weeks?"

Nightmares and flashbacks

Judge Mr Justice Pepperall - speaking at Stoke Crown Court - said the woman had made a tragic and unlawful decision to obtain a very late abortion.

He said she knew her pregnancy was beyond the legal limit of 24 weeks and there was planning in what she did, albeit quite chaotic.

However, he took into account that she had shown deep and genuine remorse and is racked by guilt.

"I accept you have a deep and emotional connection with your child and have nightmares and flashbacks to your dead child's face," he told her."

I'm not sure how i feel on this. On the one had, I absolutely believe abortion should be free, legal and accessible. However, that is such a late abortion that birth is incredibly viable, and had the child been born with some horrendous disabilities rather than stillborn as a result of her actions, there would be calls for her to be jailed and have her kids taken off her. I also recall a case where a man stabbed his heavily pregnant ( also 32 weeks) ex girlfriend to death and had 20 years added to his sentence for the death of her unborn child, so we obviously give some legal right to life to unborn children.

[Jones28]

That’s just horrendous.

I’d seen stuff about this on Twitter but didn’t look at the details. Just awful for everyone involved.

[Stairway 2 7]

Awful all round. Punishment is harsh but she needed prosecuting.

Lied saying the baby was 10 weeks and got drugs to kill a 10 week old that could cause pain to a baby that long gone. Had a 99.5% chance of survival at almost 8 months.

I'm pro choice all the way but this isn't that

[neil7908]

Awful all round. Punishment is harsh but she needed prosecuting.

Lied saying the baby was 10 weeks and got drugs to kill a 10 week old that could cause pain to a baby that long gone. Had a 99.5% chance of survival at almost 8 months.

I'm pro choice all the way but this isn't that

Agreed. I'm very pro choice and have no moral, ethical or other problem with abortion. But this is something else.

I'm genuinely confused by the backlash to this. Her sentence does seem quite long but having read the judges comments, it's spells out quite clearly why it was given - she lied multiple times and only pled guilty later on.

It's a horrible case, but I don't see how this can be ignored by the legal system when a baby that would have had a very, very good chance of surviving outside the womb has died.

[EH6 Hibby]

As a friend of someone that did not know they were pregnant until 36 weeks gone (still had periods and were still competing at a high level of sport) who only found out she was pregnant because she had an injury related to her sport, without knowing the circumstances behind this case, it’s really hard to judge, if the person wanted an abortion, why did they not just get one earlier. It’s horrible, but no one knows what was going on with the woman.

[Stairway 2 7]

As a friend of someone that did not know they were pregnant until 36 weeks gone (still had periods and were still competing at a high level of sport) who only found out she was pregnant because she had an injury related to her sport, without knowing the circumstances behind this case, it’s really hard to judge, if the person wanted an abortion, why did they not just get one earlier. It’s horrible, but no one knows what was going on with the woman.

She admitted she knew she was much further along and repeatedly lied. She obviously had problems if she was willing to do it that far along

[Pretty Boy]

It's a tragic case all round.

I'm not sure that a jail term is the right way to deal with this. It's tricky because this is not a 'collection of cells' or any embryo, this is a baby that has reached the milestone of being able to feel pain and who would have had a 90%+ chance of survival outside the womb. This isn't now a woman solely making a choice about her own body, there is quite clearly a near fully developed other human being involved. There is also the dishonesty element albeit the mental state of the woman and her own circumstances may go some way to mitigating that. My gut instinct is that there were better ways to deal with this than a prison sentence.

I'm not convinced that the calls to legalise abortion up to full term are the way to go with this. It's an emotive subject and I understand there may be extreme and rare circumstances in which very late stage abortion is necessary but in 'routine' cases there simply has to be a line in the sand somewhere. For me abortion up to 38, 39 or 40 weeks is going to a very dark place and would stretch my generally pro choice views to the limit.

I hope there is ongoing support for the woman involved in this, both to come to terms with her pregnancy and her time in prison. I also hope we see additional support in place for women who find themselves in similar situations so they are sensitively guided through the later stages of their pregnancy and provided with the options available to them as and when they are ready.

[neil7908]

It's a tragic case all round.

I'm not sure that a jail term is the right way to deal with this. It's tricky because this is not a 'collection of cells' or any embryo, this is a baby that has reached the milestone of being able to feel pain and who would have had a 90%+ chance of survival outside the womb. This isn't now a woman solely making a choice about her own body, there is quite clearly a near fully developed other human being involved. There is also the dishonesty element albeit the mental state of the woman and her own circumstances may go some way to mitigating that. My gut instinct is that there were better ways to deal with this than a prison sentence.

I'm not convinced that the calls to legalise abortion up to full term are the way to go with this. It's an emotive subject and I understand there may be extreme and rare circumstances in which very late stage abortion is necessary but in 'routine' cases there simply has to be a line in the sand somewhere. For me abortion up to 38, 39 or 40 weeks is going to a very dark place and would stretch my generally pro choice views to the limit.

I hope there is ongoing support for the woman involved in this, both to come to terms with her pregnancy and her time in prison. I also hope we see additional support in place for women who find themselves in similar situations so they are sensitively guided through the later stages of their pregnancy and provided with the options available to them as and when they are ready.

Agree with this. I think it's correct she was prosecuted but also that the sentence seems somewhat harsh.

I'm very aware that we are (likely) a bunch of men talking about abortion, none of us having ever had to be in that position.

But again, listening to the judges remarks, it's clear there would have been a different outcome if she had handled this case in a more honest way.

Her mental state is relevant, but this was something that she'd known about for months, and still choose this course of action. She had Google searches on this outcome, and had known she was pregnant for months. If it was a 16 year old I would have a very high level of sympathy but at 44, I find it harder to agree with some of the comments in defence of her.

I also found some of the criticism baffling. No one straight out said it, but is the suggestion there should be no legal limit for abortions? Are they advocating that a 34 week old baby should have no protection?

[J-C]

Read about this today, totally shocked that anyone could do this so late into a pregnancy.

[Ozyhibby]

Horrific case and def needs a punishment but I’m not sure that jail is the correct place for this woman. She probably needs some medical help. Home detention seems a more appropriate punishment.


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[500miles]

With regards to the guy who got an additional 20 years for manslaughter of the unborn child he killed when he murdered his pregnant ex, we're obviously attaching a right to life at 8 months if he was charged.

Although the law she was charged under is wrong and outdated, she might be lucky she was charged with that and not murder - even with mitigation of diminished responsibility etc.

[500miles]

I'm very aware that we are (likely) a bunch of men talking about abortion, none of us having ever had to be in that position.


I'm not sure that entirely applies here. The pregnancy had already been carried, the element of bodily autonomy had passed. This is a question of when does the right to life kick in.

The question of whether a woman should have reasonable access to abortion is separate, although that is possibly pertinent to the specific law she was charged under.

[Hibrandenburg]

Having a healthy, intelligent and caring 14 year old who was born in the 28th week of pregnancy, this story really hits a nerve with me. On the one hand I'm pro choice but on the other there have to be limits. At what point does abortion become murder?

[Onceinawhile]

Having a healthy, intelligent and caring 14 year old who was born in the 28th week of pregnancy, this story really hits a nerve with me. On the one hand I'm pro choice but on the other there have to be limits. At what point does abortion become murder?

That's just such a massive grey area that it is impossible to define.

As you say, babies born in week 28 can survive, but people can have miscarriages or babies can be born still born later than that. So it is impossible to draw a line in the sand. Personally, I find myself edging towards a 24/25/26 week limit as being ok but who knows really?

Overall this just seems really sad. Sad that there was no way for the lady to get the mental or physical help she needed and sad that a baby that was almost entirely a fully formed human has not been able to live a life.

[Chorley Hibee]

That's just such a massive grey area that it is impossible to define.

As you say, babies born in week 28 can survive, but people can have miscarriages or babies can be born still born later than that. So it is impossible to draw a line in the sand. Personally, I find myself edging towards a 24/25/26 week limit as being ok but who knows really?

Overall this just seems really sad. Sad that there was no way for the lady to get the mental or physical help she needed and sad that a baby that was almost entirely a fully formed human has not been able to live a life.

My daughter survived having been born at 24 weeks and weighing less than a pound.

I agree that it's almost impossible to draw a line on this issue, but I do feel that the deceitful manner in which she's obtained these drugs, and the duration of the pregnancy, left the judge with little option but this outcome.

[hibee]

I’m not aware of the regulations around this but very surprised you can order the pills over the phone without having a scan to determine how many weeks pregnant you are.

The way this women has behaved taking into account the internet searches mentioned in court I think she was well aware of what she was doing and how wrong it was so she’s lucky to get such a light sentence.

If she’d had the baby that day naturally then given it drugs to poison it she’d be facing a murder charge so I really struggle to see how this is different.

[AgentDaleCooper]

absolutely horrendous, sounds like psychiatric help is more likely to be useful here rather than prison. the trauma she'll be going through will be absolutely colossal. i might be wrong, but it sounds to me like her actions might have been motivated out of ignorance as much as selfishness.

[overdrive]

I’m not aware of the regulations around this but very surprised you can order the pills over the phone without having a scan to determine how many weeks pregnant you are.

The way this women has behaved taking into account the internet searches mentioned in court I think she was well aware of what she was doing and how wrong it was so she’s lucky to get such a light sentence.

If she’d had the baby that day naturally then given it drugs to poison it she’d be facing a murder charge so I really struggle to see how this is different.

I read it as it was something introduced during lockdown. Not sure if that is definitely the case or if it is, that you can still do it.

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m not aware of the regulations around this but very surprised you can order the pills over the phone without having a scan to determine how many weeks pregnant you are.

The way this women has behaved taking into account the internet searches mentioned in court I think she was well aware of what she was doing and how wrong it was so she’s lucky to get such a light sentence.

If she’d had the baby that day naturally then given it drugs to poison it she’d be facing a murder charge so I really struggle to see how this is different.

As you say if the bairn was born and she murdered it would people just be wanting a warning and psychological help.

[He's here!]

I read it as it was something introduced during lockdown. Not sure if that is definitely the case or if it is, that you can still do it.

Yes, the rules around this were relaxed during lockdown.

I find it hard to see how anyone can claim this was an abortion though. It crosses the line between that and infanticide surely.

[Mibbes Aye]

Interesting pespective from a woman and mother, who are probably a tad under-represented in this discussion :greengrin

I like Stella Creasy, she has done a power of work on using Parliament to take on the worst payday money lenders, she is very active in the Remain in Europe movement and has also had to put up with torrents of abuse, rape threats etc on social media, and a vexatious and malicious complaint that she was neglecting her children, which automatically triggers the involvement of social services. So, I usually make the effort to read her when she ihas something published.

I've not really looked at this story enough to have formulated an opinion, so I'm not saying I agree with her but she takes a slightly different line from some posters on this thread and I thought that may be of interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/13/scrap-unjust-verdict-woman-prison-abortion

[He's here!]

Interesting pespective from a woman and mother, who are probably a tad under-represented in this discussion :greengrin

I like Stella Creasy, she has done a power of work on using Parliament to take on the worst payday money lenders, she is very active in the Remain in Europe movement and has also had to put up with torrents of abuse, rape threats etc on social media, and a vexatious and malicious complaint that she was neglecting her children, which automatically triggers the involvement of social services. So, I usually make the effort to read her when she ihas something published.

I've not really looked at this story enough to have formulated an opinion, so I'm not saying I agree with her but she takes a slightly different line from some posters on this thread and I thought that may be of interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/13/scrap-unjust-verdict-woman-prison-abortion

I think she would have more of a point had this awful incident not taken place at such a late stage. Even the 24-week limit currently in place is increasingly contentious due to the fact medical advances mean foetuses can survive earlier and earlier outside the womb (in most European countries it's 12 or 14 weeks). In this particular case, at eight months, the child was all but ready to begin its life and what happened surely goes beyond 'healthcare' or protecting women's rights over their bodies. Late stage abortion is traumatic enough and would normally only take place if there is a threat to either the baby or the mother's life. This child could have lived outside its mother's body and stopping its heart seems barbarous, notwithstanding the difficulties the mother must have been having.

[Smartie]

Interesting pespective from a woman and mother, who are probably a tad under-represented in this discussion :greengrin

I like Stella Creasy, she has done a power of work on using Parliament to take on the worst payday money lenders, she is very active in the Remain in Europe movement and has also had to put up with torrents of abuse, rape threats etc on social media, and a vexatious and malicious complaint that she was neglecting her children, which automatically triggers the involvement of social services. So, I usually make the effort to read her when she ihas something published.

I've not really looked at this story enough to have formulated an opinion, so I'm not saying I agree with her but she takes a slightly different line from some posters on this thread and I thought that may be of interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/13/scrap-unjust-verdict-woman-prison-abortion

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, I might actually expect women and mothers be more scathing and judgmental of this lady's actions than men would be.

[500miles]

Interesting pespective from a woman and mother, who are probably a tad under-represented in this discussion :greengrin

I like Stella Creasy, she has done a power of work on using Parliament to take on the worst payday money lenders, she is very active in the Remain in Europe movement and has also had to put up with torrents of abuse, rape threats etc on social media, and a vexatious and malicious complaint that she was neglecting her children, which automatically triggers the involvement of social services. So, I usually make the effort to read her when she ihas something published.

I've not really looked at this story enough to have formulated an opinion, so I'm not saying I agree with her but she takes a slightly different line from some posters on this thread and I thought that may be of interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/13/scrap-unjust-verdict-woman-prison-abortion

I agree with her stance on the law regarding abortion. She brushes over the particulars of this case because this wasn't a decision to carry a pregnancy - the pregnancy was carried - this was a decision whether a baby be delivered alive or dead.

I keep referring back to the additional 20 years the murderer ex bf got which suggests a right to life for that unborn child, and I think she could be condidered lucky to get a short sentence. I certainly wouldn't be confident that her other children are suffering a net loss from being separated from her.

[Pretty Boy]

Interesting pespective from a woman and mother, who are probably a tad under-represented in this discussion :greengrin

I like Stella Creasy, she has done a power of work on using Parliament to take on the worst payday money lenders, she is very active in the Remain in Europe movement and has also had to put up with torrents of abuse, rape threats etc on social media, and a vexatious and malicious complaint that she was neglecting her children, which automatically triggers the involvement of social services. So, I usually make the effort to read her when she ihas something published.

I've not really looked at this story enough to have formulated an opinion, so I'm not saying I agree with her but she takes a slightly different line from some posters on this thread and I thought that may be of interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/13/scrap-unjust-verdict-woman-prison-abortion

It's an interesting take and there are large parts I agree with.

As she acknowledges herself there are currently legal allowances for late stage abortion when it is deemed in the medical interests of the mother, baby or both. Of course the law regarding all abortion should be tidied up as it is currently a bit archaic.

As I said above I don't believe anyone should be going to jail for abortion, even in a case like this I'm not convinced a custodial sentence is in the public interest nor is it the best route to rehabilitation and healing for the woman involved. Equally though there is an elephant in the room when someone states that abortion should be legally available up to full term. There's little in the way of specifics as to how this would work in practice and rare or otherwise it's an area that would need all kinds of safeguards. I'm 99% certain no one is advocating that a woman should be able to procure an abortion on a whim at 38 or 39 weeks (nor is it something I believe would be commonplace among pregnant women) but fleshing out the situations in which this would be legally permissible and why is a pretty important aspect of the debate. The column linked basically skirts around the issue.

[Mibbes Aye]

Some thoughtful replies above and having read them and a little more about the case I’m still very unsure what I think. There is a lot of complexity to a situation like this and potentially a lot of circumstances we don’t know, that could influence opinions in any direction.

I was very firmly pro-life when I was young, like teenager young. As with many wedge issues for people, when I changed my mind there was a risk of becoming too zealous a pro-choicer. I think I avoided that but this is an area which taps into something that engenders strong responses in people.

There is also the issue around if we define something as a crime then what is the best way of addressing that? What balance of retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence and removal are we trying to achieve, and for whose benefit? That is true and can be challenging for any discussion about ‘crime’, but even more soon a situation like this. It also opens that Pandora’s box of term limits. As said above, it is hard to see and likely rare that full-term abortion would or should be permissible. The challenge is that the debate then comes about the cut-off point and either side gets their scientists to argue the finer points.

I also struggle somewhat with our criminal justice system, insomuch that it fails women on a systemic basis and as a consequence makes it hard to trust. Being father to a daughter, all the theory about structural discrimination I have ever read, or feminist sociology as an abstract concept, becomes very real when I recognise it will become the lived experience of someone I unconditionally love.

My understanding is that the woman in question already has children. I hope they are shielded from unwarranted intrusion and their privacy and anonymity is upheld. As for the woman herself, I think I feel sorrow for her. I’m not sure how to describe how I feel for the child who passed though - sorrow seems a shallow word in this case.

[He's here!]

Some thoughtful replies above and having read them and a little more about the case I’m still very unsure what I think. There is a lot of complexity to a situation like this and potentially a lot of circumstances we don’t know, that could influence opinions in any direction.

I was very firmly pro-life when I was young, like teenager young. As with many wedge issues for people, when I changed my mind there was a risk of becoming too zealous a pro-choicer. I think I avoided that but this is an area which taps into something that engenders strong responses in people.

There is also the issue around if we define something as a crime then what is the best way of addressing that? What balance of retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence and removal are we trying to achieve, and for whose benefit? That is true and can be challenging for any discussion about ‘crime’, but even more soon a situation like this. It also opens that Pandora’s box of term limits. As said above, it is hard to see and likely rare that full-term abortion would or should be permissible. The challenge is that the debate then comes about the cut-off point and either side gets their scientists to argue the finer points.

I also struggle somewhat with our criminal justice system, insomuch that it fails women on a systemic basis and as a consequence makes it hard to trust. Being father to a daughter, all the theory about structural discrimination I have ever read, or feminist sociology as an abstract concept, becomes very real when I recognise it will become the lived experience of someone I unconditionally love.

My understanding is that the woman in question already has children. I hope they are shielded from unwarranted intrusion and their privacy and anonymity is upheld. As for the woman herself, I think I feel sorrow for her. I’m not sure how to describe how I feel for the child who passed though - sorrow seems a shallow word in this case.

We're no strangers to miscarriage in our family, a sad, poignant and especially distressing experience when a pregnancy has reached the stage when you very much sense the beginnings of a little life. While I would describe myself as pro-choice I just cannot fathom what kind of mental state a woman would have to be in to end the life of a baby on the brink of being born. I don't think it's hard to see both sides here and (as I have just established in my current primary school staff room), there will be a significant number of women who feel a great deal of anger rather than sympathy towards this mother.

[Pretty Boy]

We're no strangers to miscarriage in our family, a sad, poignant and especially distressing experience when a pregnancy has reached the stage when you very much sense the beginnings of a little life. While I would describe myself as pro-choice I just cannot fathom what kind of mental state a woman would have to be in to end the life of a baby on the brink of being born. I don't think it's hard to see both sides here and (as I have just established in my current primary school staff room), there will be a significant number of women who feel a great deal of anger rather than sympathy towards this mother.

I was quite surprised by the reaction of the women in my office when I broached this topic with them. I wanted to solicit their opinion as I am acutely aware I am seeing it from a male perspective regardless of how open minded I would like to think I can be. They were unanimously less sympathetic than me albeit there was a sliding scale.

Thankfully I have never experienced miscarriage or stillbirth. I have friends who have gone through it, one couple multiple times, and you can see the horrific impact it has. My daughter was born breech, unexpectedly due to human error on the part of our midwife, and it was a horrible experience. We were aware her heart rate was dropping and very quickly the room went from calm to chaos as doctors, nurses and midwifes appeared from seemingly nowhere. We were warned she would be very blue and very floppy when she was finally out but nothing prepared me for the deafening silence as just nothing happened. The cord was cut immediately, she was moved to a little table and doctors immediately began to administer oxygen and work on her calmly but urgently. It must have been no more than 2 or 3 minutes but it felt like a lifetime of silence before that first cry which was the sweetest sound I have ever heard.

I'm obviously not comparing such a situation to those who have lost babies but it's an example of how emotive pregnancy and birth can be and probably why a case such as this one evokes such strong reactions from all sides. Like others I'm still conflicted about how I feel about almost every aspect of it.