Supporter's shield

[NAE NOOKIE]

Inspired by watching ( well, until it got to 2 - 0 when I turned it off ) Celtic sweep all before them again for the 5th time in 7 seasons, or whatever it is, and knowing the only club with a hope of ending that dominance, in the league at least, is Sevco I'm raising an idea that I've mooted before.

In MLS the supporters banded together and conceived a trophy that is awarded to the club with the most league points before the playoffs start for the MLS title. This was based on the idea that it was a bit unfair for a club not to be recognised for an outstanding league season due to the playoff system.

For 40 years now the title in Scotland has been monopolised by two clubs with budgets that absolutely dwarf every other club, we are not talking about a level playing field any more, if there ever was one. The chances of that situation changing is about as far away as Vladimir Putin giving away all his money, becoming a Buddhist and standing naked on top of the Kremlin screaming how sorry he is through a megaphone.

In view of that, why can the supporters of the other clubs not band together and start our own version of the supporter's shield, to be awarded to the club finishing best of the rest every season ... hell, if it was done right perhaps we could even find a sponsor for it that would allow a financial reward that goes with it.

When I suggested this before I was accused of being 'defeatist' .... all I can say to that is, what would you call a period of 40 years where no one outside of two clubs has won the league, with absolutely no sign of that ever changing other than defeat? That aside, what I would call such a move would be a signal to the folk who run our game that the supporters of the non OF clubs in Scotland are so fed up with the current state of affairs that they themselves have decided to sideline the bigot brothers and have our own competition.

It doesn't look like the clubs will ever do it, so why don't we?

[Carheenlea]

The prize of European group football is fine reward as it is for finishing third.

Just don’t see the merits of handing out gongs for such a position.

School sports day stuff.

[Jones28]

I think it’s a good idea NN, no doubt it’ll be described as tin-pot and diddy cup and all the rest of it, but I think it’s a decent thought.

However I don’t think there’s a hope in hell of finding a sponsor because there’s **** all chance of rangers or Celtic ever winning it 😂

[Paulie Walnuts]

Not for me.

[Trinity Hibee]

The prize of European group football is fine reward as it is for finishing third.

Just don’t see the merits of handing out gongs for such a position.

School sports day stuff.

Have to agree. I understand the sentiment but it would be a hollow prize.

[Speedy]

Not keen

[Baldy Foghorn]

The prize of European group football is fine reward as it is for finishing third.

Just don’t see the merits of handing out gongs for such a position.

School sports day stuff.

:top marks

[Pagan Hibernia]

I’d be opposed for the same reason that I’d be opposed to competing in a league without rangers and Celtic if they ever buggered off to the English pyramid or some other super league. Namely, the fact that winning it would feel completely hollow and empty. What would we be champions of? Some of Scotland?

I hate their domination as much as anyone, but simply removing the two dominant parties from the equation to give everyone else a chance isn’t the answer, and neither, to my mind is inventing a trophy for the rest of us to play for without them.

the answer is the rest of us continuously pushing to overturn the structural inequalities of Scottish football and having a better and more just distribution of income. I presume that’s what Ron was pushing for with his independent review

[NAE NOOKIE]

I’d be opposed for the same reason that I’d be opposed to competing in a league without rangers and Celtic if they ever buggered off to the English pyramid or some other super league. Namely, the fact that winning it would feel completely hollow and empty. What would we be champions of? Some of Scotland?

I hate their domination as much as anyone, but simply removing the two dominant parties from the equation to give everyone else a chance isn’t the answer, and neither, to my mind is inventing a trophy for the rest of us to play for without them.

the answer is the rest of us continuously pushing to overturn the structural inequalities of Scottish football and having a better and more just distribution of income. I presume that’s what Ron was pushing for with his independent review

So basically, winning the league isn't worth worth a damn unless Celtic and The Rangers are in it, but nobody can ever win the league with them in it. Classic catch 22.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rangers finished the season 35 points ahead of 3rd placed Aberdeen with a goal difference of plus 60 ( sixty ) over them. The season before 3rd placed Hearts were 28 points behind them with a goal difference of minus 39. The season before that 3rd place Hibs were 14 points behind 2nd placed Celtic with a goal difference of minus 36 to them .... The Rangers won the league with 102 points, 39 better than Hibs.

As for an even distribution of the money, even when that was a possibility the other clubs blew it. But the money from TV and even winning the league is peanuts compared to income from the Champions league and crowds of 50,000 ... 50,000 plus in Celtic's case. It is also a fact that they can command far higher transfer fees than the others, do you think for a second that if Nathan Patterson had played about 5 first team games for Motherwell with a couple of Scotland caps Everton would have parted with £12,000,000 for him, not a hope, more like £750,000 That is what we are up against.

The supporter's shield idea was simply a trophy awarded by the fans who don't support either ugly sister in recognition of the fact that the clubs they do support are competing on an entirely uneven playing field when it comes to the Scottish premiership ... Nobody is suggesting it would make the winning club champions of Scotland, it would be for playing in a league with Celtic and The Rangers in it if I'm not mistaken.

Every other idea that might level the playing field would involve the clubs in the shape of the SPFL and / or the SFA standing up to the Glasgow duopoly ... hows that been going for the last 100 years?

At least my idea involves the fans and nobody else, no permission required from the jellyfish who run our game ... and if fans of every club got on board with it it would make a statement. Who gives a rats arse what fans of the Uglies would have to say about it.

[GreenCastle]

I think there definitely has to be some sort of discussion by non old firm teams about the future of the game.

We will NEVER see a non old firm team winning the league in our life times.

Do we all want to just keep playing for 3rd ? Spending ££ home and away to finish 3rd ?

There is one thing old firm winning the league - there is another thing the large gap of points they do it by.

Only way I can see change..

A non old firm club get a ridiculously wealthy person who has more money than sense.

Cups are the only small chance we all have a trophy.

I’m not against the supporters shield idea. I’ve also said before the NON old firm clubs together are stronger than they realise. The Old Firm need these clubs otherwise they have no where to play.

I would be happy with a bit smite non bias coverage of the game up here as a start but the monopoly they have on fixtures / refs / radio coverage / sky deals etc makes it even worse.

[Gatecrasher]

I dunno about a supporters shield but after celtic winning 11 titles out of the last 12 and no other team getting close since the 80s something needs to be done to level the playing field whether that be salary caps, league expansion or something else. The game in Scotland is already a 2 horse race and it's getting worse instead of better.

[Keith_M]

The Best of The Diddy Teams Trophy?

Nah, no thanks.

[GreenCastle]

Play the old firm each only x2 a season.

Home and Away for each.

Surely the gap between 3rd and 2nd would be smaller ?

[gbhibby]

Was it not Arsene who said 4th is a trophy as it was worth more than winning any of the cups in England.
What would you call the trophy
The if the bigot brothers didn't play in this league we would be champions cup.
Hearts would be claiming the cup in October and organising an open top bus.
Not for me.

[Pretty Boy]

I sympathise with the OP even if I don't agree with the idea of awarding a 3rd place trophy. That in itself isn't that outrageous an idea though. England awards a trophy to a team that finishes anywhere between 3rd and 6th in the Championship, League One etc every year. If European football is reward enough for finishing 3rd here then surely EPL football is reward enough for finishing 5th or 6th in the English Championship? I get it's a different format but a trophy for winning a play off is more than the team that finishes 2nd gets. You have to consider perception though and awarding a 'best of the rest' trophy would only lead to additional scorn aimed at our game and there is enough of that already, both from within and outwith Scotland.

I don't agree with the idea that winning a league without Rangers and Celtic would be diminished though. Ultimately the gap isn't closing any time soon, it's only going to grow. Even the cups are becoming more of a closed shop; since 2016 Celtic have won 5 of the 7, Rangers 1 and it has left Glasgow on a solitary occasion. The League Cup has seen Celtic walk away with 7 of the last 10. For Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen to win a league and maybe even a double or treble without Celtic or Rangers would be a far greater achievement than what Celtic have just done, it would be a club beating out 2 or 3 evenly matched teams rather than someone on a Harely Davidson telling a cyclist they just have to try harder when they finish a race 400 miles behind them.

There are 3 solutions to break the duopoly (which is now really a monopoly) that I can see and none would be universally palatable for various reasons. The first is to increase the size of the league and only have each team play Celtic and Rangers twice. They would still win the league and be 2nd comfortably but in theory the biggest gap each could amass over Hibs (as an example) based only on games against us would be 6 points rather than the 12 it is now. That wouldn't work though because Sky and the league want their 4 OF games, Celtic and Rangers want their 4 OF games and other clubs (likely including Hibs) want their 4 sell out stands every season. It also leads to far more meaningless games than we currently have even allowing for an increase in the number of relegation places (another reason it would be opposed). The 2nd is to bring back some kind of split of gate money but why would Celtic, Rangers and even Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen agree to that. We'd be handing over far more to the likes of St Johnstone and Kilmarnock than would ever come the other way. The final idea is arguably the most radical; keep a 12 team league and keep the split but after the split the top 6 has all their points reset to zero and it's a 5 game shoot out to decide the champions and European places. Alternatively make it a play off system where 1st plays 6th, 2nd v 5th and 3rd v 4th over 2 legs until you reach a grand final. Celtic and Rangers would still win it more often than not but the law of average suggests there would be an anomaly every now and then that just won't happen in a standard 30 something game season. again though no way Celtic and Rangers agree to that.

The reality is no one else wants Celtic and Rangers as it stands so they are going nowhere and Scottish football is uber conservative when it comes to meaningful change. We better just keep praying for that eccentric billionaire with a passion for green.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I sympathise with the OP even if I don't agree with the idea of awarding a 3rd place trophy. That in itself isn't that outrageous an idea though. England awards a trophy to a team that finishes anywhere between 3rd and 6th in the Championship, League One etc every year. If European football is reward enough for finishing 3rd here then surely EPL football is reward enough for finishing 5th or 6th in the English Championship? I get it's a different format but a trophy for winning a play off is more than the team that finishes 2nd gets. You have to consider perception though and awarding a 'best of the rest' trophy would only lead to additional scorn aimed at our game and there is enough of that already, both from within and outwith Scotland.

I don't agree with the idea that winning a league without Rangers and Celtic would be diminished though. Ultimately the gap isn't closing any time soon, it's only going to grow. Even the cups are becoming more of a closed shop; since 2016 Celtic have won 5 of the 7, Rangers 1 and it has left Glasgow on a solitary occasion. The League Cup has seen Celtic walk away with 7 of the last 10. For Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen to win a league and maybe even a double or treble without Celtic or Rangers would be a far greater achievement than what Celtic have just done, it would be a club beating out 2 or 3 evenly matched teams rather than someone on a Harely Davidson telling a cyclist they just have to try harder when they finish a race 400 miles behind them.

There are 3 solutions to break the duopoly (which is now really a monopoly) that I can see and none would be universally palatable for various reasons. The first is to increase the size of the league and only have each team play Celtic and Rangers twice. They would still win the league and be 2nd comfortably but in theory the biggest gap each could amass over Hibs (as an example) based only on games against us would be 6 points rather than the 12 it is now. That wouldn't work though because Sky and the league want their 4 OF games, Celtic and Rangers want their 4 OF games and other clubs (likely including Hibs) want their 4 sell out stands every season. It also leads to far more meaningless games than we currently have even allowing for an increase in the number of relegation places (another reason it would be opposed). The 2nd is to bring back some kind of split of gate money but why would Celtic, Rangers and even Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen agree to that. We'd be handing over far more to the likes of St Johnstone and Kilmarnock than would ever come the other way. The final idea is arguably the most radical; keep a 12 team league and keep the split but after the split the top 6 has all their points reset to zero and it's a 5 game shoot out to decide the champions and European places. Alternatively make it a play off system where 1st plays 6th, 2nd v 5th and 3rd v 4th over 2 legs until you reach a grand final. Celtic and Rangers would still win it more often than not but the law of average suggests there would be an anomaly every now and then that just won't happen in a standard 30 something game season. again though no way Celtic and Rangers agree to that.

The reality is no one else wants Celtic and Rangers as it stands so they are going nowhere and Scottish football is uber conservative when it comes to meaningful change. We better just keep praying for that eccentric billionaire with a passion for green.

I quite like the 3rd suggestion.

[Eyrie]

Much as I'd like to get rid of the Ugly Sisters, I think the play off suggestion is probably the only practical change.

Of course, the Ugly Sisters would object but even the infamous 10-2 vote in the top flight can be overcome if the forty football clubs stick together on this.

[Carheenlea]

There is not a chance of the Old Firm being open to looking at ideas such as the top 6 play off for the title as suggested above.

A key point is that while we all yearn for a more competitive league, it is absolutely the last thing the Old Firm wish to see. How you go about getting them onboard for discussions to lobby ideas as to what could be done to dilute the duopoly a bit is anyone’s guess.

The Old Firm occasionally lament the uncompetitiveness and use it as an excuse for European failures, but they have absolutely no desire to see that status change any time soon.

[Mick O'Rourke]

The Best of The Diddy Teams Trophy?

Nah, no thanks.

Celebration songs winning the DTT :cup::banana:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooeRA8ZhcoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGor7ZyCawI

:greengrin

[overdrive]

Not for me. Though it isn’t as daft as it seems. The EFL have started giving a trophy to the team that finishes second. I don’t know if that was introduced due to them being the only promoted team that doesn’t actually get a trophy. Ridiculous that they do that IMO.

[Since90+2]

I quite like the 3rd suggestion.

It would certainly be better for Hibs, but it wouldn't really be winning the league as such.

You'd have 32 games to essentially qualify for chance to win the league, teams who had already qualified would end up playing weakened sides to rest players and that would be completely unfair on sides at he bottom. If it made absolutely no difference between finishing 1st or 6th before a 5 game shootout, you'd have loads of meaningless games before you got to that stage.

[Eyrie]

The play off would presumably be seeded, so teams would still have an incentive to finish as high as possible one they've qualified.

Usual format is a bye and top seed gets home advantage against the lowest seed. So it would be 3rd vs 6th and 4th vs 5th, followed by 1st vs the lowest team and 2nd vs the other team, then the final.

[lyonhibs]

Apparently in Belgium they have a sort of split situation except that the points are divided in half, thus gaps between teams are halved, and each team plays the other teams in their mini league twice.

Certainly gives rise to some incredible final days like this year