Met Police

[neil7908]

Been a few threads with discussion on policing but the below report is pretty scary given they are the largest police force in the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/16/met-police-on-last-chance-as-casey-report-to-condemn-failure-to-change

Not sure if they can come back from this point.

[neil7908]

Labelled as institutionally corrupt, racist, homophobic and sexist.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/21/metropolitan-police-institutionally-racist-misogynistic-homophobic-louise-casey-report

A shocking failure and not sure how anyone could defend this.

[Hibbyradge]

Seriously? The Met?

Who knew?

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

The Met? Nahhhh, NEVER! what a surprise![emoji849]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Ach, don't be fooled, it's just a few bad pennies, otherwise known as bent coppers.

[hibsbollah]

It’s an important report because of the use of the ‘institutional’ word to describe the racism/misogynism, and how that echoes the Stephen Lawrence findings. The head of the Met is refusing to accept that definition, as is the Home Office, but the mayor of London is using it, because it is the actual findings of the report.

My daughter lives in London and I honestly don’t know if I’d advise her to put her trust in a male met officer. That’s the state we’re in.

[archie]

It’s an important report because of the use of the ‘institutional’ word to describe the racism/misogynism, and how that echoes the Stephen Lawrence findings. The head of the Met is refusing to accept that definition, as is the Home Office, but the mayor of London is using it, because it is the actual findings of the report.

My daughter lives in London and I honestly don’t know if I’d advise her to put her trust in a male met officer. That’s the state we’re in.

There was a head of a girls school in London advised students not to approach a male policeman if he was on his own!

[Santa Cruz]

There was a head of a girls school in London advised students not to approach a male policeman if he was on his own!

I don't live in London and have always told my daughter if she finds herself in any situation alone with a male officer to request a female officer is present, same goes for security guards in stores. Even if alone with a female, the ideal scenario would always be to have at least 2 people present.

The report is damning. The racism aspect has been a problem for as long as I can remember. The Met needs reorganised from top to bottom. It's far too big for anyone in a senior official postion to maintain proper operational oversight over imo. I'd start by sub-dividing it into a number of smaller Police Forces.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/misterabk/status/1638153275751923714?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

She’s not wrong.


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[JimBHibees]

They obviously just filed the McPherson report after the Stephen Lawrence murder as that 20 years or so ago said exactly the same thing. Absolutely shocking

[Ozyhibby]

They obviously just filed the McPherson report after the Stephen Lawrence murder as that 20 years or so ago said exactly the same thing. Absolutely shocking

This has already been shelved. Home Secretary and the commissioner of the Met have not accepted the findings. You can’t have change if you don’t think you have a problem.


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[Berwickhibby]

This has already been shelved. Home Secretary and the commissioner of the Met have not accepted the findings. You can’t have change if you don’t think you have a problem.


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Was not shelved lots of changes were introduced after Macpherson report …

[neil7908]

Was not shelved lots of changes were introduced after Macpherson report …

Berwick, I think fron memory you may be a police officer (or maybe ex).

Can I ask your thoughts on the report and the Met? Appreciate you may not want to comment so no worries if you'd rather not but I'm personally really interested to hear from someone with more direct experience of the police on this, as from the outside, it just seems unbelievable how bad things still are.

[Berwickhibby]

Berwick, I think fron memory you may be a police officer (or maybe ex).

Can I ask your thoughts on the report and the Met? Appreciate you may not want to comment so no worries if you'd rather not but I'm personally really interested to hear from someone with more direct experience of the police on this, as from the outside, it just seems unbelievable how bad things still are.

I did 10 years in the Met, and this report does not reflect my time, imho the rot set after the changes by MacPherson and other reports. Allowing people to join with criminal records, lower standard of education, the background checks were reduced as considered to intrusive. There was also a change in discipline, people scared to pull anyone for anything in case complaints were made of a supervisor being overbearing.

I was in a service where brave lads and lassies put their lives on the line for the public regularly and were more interested in catching criminals and stopping crime.

Also bent coppers were hated by the rank and file and they should be punished with a heavier sentence.

[Stairway 2 7]

Police Scotland at the ham also

https://mobile.twitter.com/AamerAnwar/status/1641087159644954625

AamerAnwar
One of
@PoliceScotland
’s main call handling centres used a fake system to manipulate response time targets for 8 yrs, according to documents seen by
@BBCScotland
1000s of calls were allocated to fictitious call sign- many calls were not attended to at all

[Ozyhibby]

Police Scotland at the ham also

https://mobile.twitter.com/AamerAnwar/status/1641087159644954625

AamerAnwar
One of
@PoliceScotland
’s main call handling centres used a fake system to manipulate response time targets for 8 yrs, according to documents seen by
@BBCScotland
1000s of calls were allocated to fictitious call sign- many calls were not attended to at all

Think Mark Daly has a doc on it tonight on tv. It’s actually fraud and people should be prosecuted over it. Won’t happen though.


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[Santa Cruz]

Think Mark Daly has a doc on it tonight on tv. It’s actually fraud and people should be prosecuted over it. Won’t happen though.


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Can't see it on the tv schedule. Do you know what time/channel it's on?

[wookie70]

I did 10 years in the Met, and this report does not reflect my time, imho the rot set after the changes by MacPherson and other reports. Allowing people to join with criminal records, lower standard of education, the background checks were reduced as considered to intrusive. There was also a change in discipline, people scared to pull anyone for anything in case complaints were made of a supervisor being overbearing.

I was in a service where brave lads and lassies put their lives on the line for the public regularly and were more interested in catching criminals and stopping crime.

Also bent coppers were hated by the rank and file and they should be punished with a heavier sentence.

I think the McPherson report clearly showed there was plenty rot before it was written. How many of the rank and file reported those bent coppers. If they didn't as far as I am concerned they are just as much a problem and are facilitating at best or encouraging at worse that behaviour. Little seems to have changed with male officers treating women like dirt, being given nicknames associated with that behaviour as all the other officers know what they are like but no-one actually acting to stop it. I do agree it is ridiculous that officers can be recruited who have criminal records. Not sure about the educational records as tech exists that means it is easy to voice record reports etc but I do think some basic morality, common sense and a desire to be fair and reasonable are what I would be looking for. Most would be pretty easy to test in a recruitment process as would prejudices etc. By all accounts the training appears to reflect the atmosphere and 1970s culture of the stations

[Berwickhibby]

I think the McPherson report clearly showed there was plenty rot before it was written. How many of the rank and file reported those bent coppers. If they didn't as far as I am concerned they are just as much a problem and are facilitating at best or encouraging at worse that behaviour. Little seems to have changed with male officers treating women like dirt, being given nicknames associated with that behaviour as all the other officers know what they are like but no-one actually acting to stop it. I do agree it is ridiculous that officers can be recruited who have criminal records. Not sure about the educational records as tech exists that means it is easy to voice record reports etc but I do think some basic morality, common sense and a desire to be fair and reasonable are what I would be looking for. Most would be pretty easy to test in a recruitment process as would prejudices etc. By all accounts the training appears to reflect the atmosphere and 1970s culture of the stations

Personally I thought the MacPherson report was a load of pish, The Met in the 90s was still a disciplined service. You speak with absolute no real knowledge but ready to knock the police.
1. Officers did/do not treat women like dirt in my experience

2. Nicknames were given to all, it was banter, as in the Military, Fire Service, Ambulance Service , NHS etc I assume they are all institutional raciest and misogynists

3. Education is important, not just having a grasp of English, but there are important legal legislation in evidence
gathering, interviewing, I know of many cases being lost at court due to a smart arse solicitor or barrister ripping into the officer who was unable to respond and made to look stupid as he or she did not have the verbal skills to respond.

4. The biggest shock, guess what people lie, my favourite was the introduction of covert cameras in custody suites and police vehicles. The complaints continued that prisoners were getting assaulted in cells and in vehicles. When the tapes were reviewed, shock horror, not a single incident of assault. Then the complaints came in that there was no signage about being recorded.

5. So my final comment is aimed at you, once you have pulled on the uniform and dealt with some of the worst scenarios that can happen to human beings then you might change your perception.

[wookie70]

Personally I thought the MacPherson report was a load of pish, The Met in the 90s was still a disciplined service. You speak with absolute no real knowledge but ready to knock the police.
1. Officers did/do not treat women like dirt in my experience

2. Nicknames were given to all, it was banter, as in the Military, Fire Service, Ambulance Service , NHS etc I assume they are all institutional raciest and misogynists

3. Education is important, not just having a grasp of English, but there are important legal legislation in evidence
gathering, interviewing, I know of many cases being lost at court due to a smart arse solicitor or barrister ripping into the officer who was unable to respond and made to look stupid as he or she did not have the verbal skills to respond.

4. The biggest shock, guess what people lie, my favourite was the introduction of covert cameras in custody suites and police vehicles. The complaints continued that prisoners were getting assaulted in cells and in vehicles. When the tapes were reviewed, shock horror, not a single incident of assault. Then the complaints came in that there was no signage about being recorded.

5. So my final comment is aimed at you, once you have pulled on the uniform and dealt with some of the worst scenarios that can happen to human beings then you might change your perception.

You must have been very lucky as there is lots of evidence to the contrary. Times have changed and banter was probably accepted where I worked in the 80s and 90s. We moved on though and behaviour was improved. The Met seems stuck in a timewarp along with other forces and this is not the odd officer.

You are correct, people like and that includes those oin uniform. Many of whom do it on the orders of senior officers who write the scripts.

I take your point about education but some of the stupidest people I have met have degrees. A level of intelligence is needed no doubt and the ability to comprehend the law but I doubt Higher English would make much odds.

When I look at Audits and reports on areas I know well they tend to underestimate issues as those involved rarely paint it as black as it is and management always believe their own hype.

[Paul1642]

Personally I thought the MacPherson report was a load of pish, The Met in the 90s was still a disciplined service. You speak with absolute no real knowledge but ready to knock the police.
1. Officers did/do not treat women like dirt in my experience

2. Nicknames were given to all, it was banter, as in the Military, Fire Service, Ambulance Service , NHS etc I assume they are all institutional raciest and misogynists

3. Education is important, not just having a grasp of English, but there are important legal legislation in evidence
gathering, interviewing, I know of many cases being lost at court due to a smart arse solicitor or barrister ripping into the officer who was unable to respond and made to look stupid as he or she did not have the verbal skills to respond.

4. The biggest shock, guess what people lie, my favourite was the introduction of covert cameras in custody suites and police vehicles. The complaints continued that prisoners were getting assaulted in cells and in vehicles. When the tapes were reviewed, shock horror, not a single incident of assault. Then the complaints came in that there was no signage about being recorded.

5. So my final comment is aimed at you, once you have pulled on the uniform and dealt with some of the worst scenarios that can happen to human beings then you might change your perception.

I’m response to point 2 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65128073

I am also in no doubt that if inspections were done on almost almost any public service or private company for that matter the results would be similar.

Bashing the police is just the flavour of the month at the moment and all stemmed from bad press in the USA somehow affecting a vocal minority of opinions over here.

UK police as a whole are probably some of the most professional in the world and do a great job whist being woefully under resourced. Most of the public agree with this and don’t let internet loudmouths / MSM let you think otherwise.
Many of those who dislike they police will never have their minds changed and will twist narrative to suit this view.

The bias in some of the reporting I read is breathtaking and written in a way that people can be easily deceived by it. The recent example is the sensationalist headline “Police strip search over 3000 children as young as 8”

What the articles then fail to mention is that

1. Less than 0.7% of these children were younger than 12. Only one was 8.

2. 76% of these “children” were 16 or 17.

3. The article falsely claims that’s these searches are invasive or involve physical touching which is simply incorrect.

4. A large majority of these searches provided positive results and were there’re clearly justified. Should these kids have been left with the drugs and say whatever to our drug death crisis? (And the media will gleefully write the headline “child dies of overdose in a police cell having not been properly searched).

[Berwickhibby]

I’m response to point 2 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65128073

I am also in no doubt that if inspections were done on almost almost any public service or private company for that matter the results would be similar.

Bashing the police is just the flavour of the month at the moment and all stemmed from bad press in the USA somehow affecting a vocal minority of opinions over here.

UK police as a whole are probably some of the most professional in the world and do a great job whist being woefully under resourced. Most of the public agree with this and don’t let internet loudmouths / MSM let you think otherwise.
Many of those who dislike they police will never have their minds changed and will twist narrative to suit this view.

The bias in some of the reporting I read is breathtaking and written in a way that people can be easily deceived by it. The recent example is the sensationalist headline “Police strip search over 3000 children as young as 8”

What the articles then fail to mention is that

1. Less than 0.7% of these children were younger than 12. Only one was 8.

2. 76% of these “children” were 16 or 17.

3. The article falsely claims that’s these searches are invasive or involve physical touching which is simply incorrect.

4. A large majority of these searches provided positive results and were there’re clearly justified. Should these kids have been left with the drugs and say whatever to our drug death crisis? (And the media will gleefully write the headline “child dies of overdose in a police cell having not been properly searched).

When it comes to searching it’s an absolute farce what is written in the press, a search on the street is Jacket, pockets, coat and hat. There are specific rules to follow, an officer just cannot go fishing and under PACE 84 in England and Wales these rules MUST be adhered to:

Grounds for the search
Object the officer is searching for
Warrant, particularly if the officer is in plain clothes if a court search
Identification, proof that the officer is indeed a police officer!
Station to which the officer is attached to
Entitlement, any citizen being searched by a police officer is entitled to copies of all paperwork
Legislation, the legal power which gives the officer the right to stop and search
YOU are being detained for the search or for the purpose of…essentially informing the citizen in no uncertain terms the purpose and nature of the search

But that does not make great headlines

[WeeRussell]

Personally I thought the MacPherson report was a load of pish, The Met in the 90s was still a disciplined service. You speak with absolute no real knowledge but ready to knock the police.
1. Officers did/do not treat women like dirt in my experience

2. Nicknames were given to all, it was banter, as in the Military, Fire Service, Ambulance Service , NHS etc I assume they are all institutional raciest and misogynists

3. Education is important, not just having a grasp of English, but there are important legal legislation in evidence
gathering, interviewing, I know of many cases being lost at court due to a smart arse solicitor or barrister ripping into the officer who was unable to respond and made to look stupid as he or she did not have the verbal skills to respond.

4. The biggest shock, guess what people lie, my favourite was the introduction of covert cameras in custody suites and police vehicles. The complaints continued that prisoners were getting assaulted in cells and in vehicles. When the tapes were reviewed, shock horror, not a single incident of assault. Then the complaints came in that there was no signage about being recorded.

5. So my final comment is aimed at you, once you have pulled on the uniform and dealt with some of the worst scenarios that can happen to human beings then you might change your perception.

Useful to hear your experiences BH and I don’t think anyone doubts your sincerity and efforts during your time.

However it would surely also be accurate to suggest your experience doesn’t cover the whole of the force back then or now. Kind of like someone who worked for the BBC saying they enjoyed a great career working with dedicated and good honest people. Useful to get their views but they can’t be used to dismiss real issues in the organisation. And clearly there are a number of victims (not the ones caught on camera lying) who have had very different experiences.

Regards your rules on searching post. I don’t think anyone on here would dispute that there are rules in place (they might dispute if they are the right rules) but more if they are being respected and followed by enough employees.

[He's here!]

Personally I thought the MacPherson report was a load of pish, The Met in the 90s was still a disciplined service. You speak with absolute no real knowledge but ready to knock the police.
1. Officers did/do not treat women like dirt in my experience

2. Nicknames were given to all, it was banter, as in the Military, Fire Service, Ambulance Service , NHS etc I assume they are all institutional raciest and misogynists

3. Education is important, not just having a grasp of English, but there are important legal legislation in evidence
gathering, interviewing, I know of many cases being lost at court due to a smart arse solicitor or barrister ripping into the officer who was unable to respond and made to look stupid as he or she did not have the verbal skills to respond.

4. The biggest shock, guess what people lie, my favourite was the introduction of covert cameras in custody suites and police vehicles. The complaints continued that prisoners were getting assaulted in cells and in vehicles. When the tapes were reviewed, shock horror, not a single incident of assault. Then the complaints came in that there was no signage about being recorded.

5. So my final comment is aimed at you, once you have pulled on the uniform and dealt with some of the worst scenarios that can happen to human beings then you might change your perception.

I think that's a fair point that needs to be borne in mind.

Re your reference to nicknames/banter, I note the Fire Services are now coming under similar levels of criticism:

Fire services: Shocking bullying and abuse widespread, report says - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65128073)

[ronaldo7]

I did 10 years in the Met, and this report does not reflect my time, imho the rot set after the changes by MacPherson and other reports. Allowing people to join with criminal records, lower standard of education, the background checks were reduced as considered to intrusive. There was also a change in discipline, people scared to pull anyone for anything in case complaints were made of a supervisor being overbearing.

I was in a service where brave lads and lassies put their lives on the line for the public regularly and were more interested in catching criminals and stopping crime.

Also bent coppers were hated by the rank and file and they should be punished with a heavier sentence.

Did bent coppers stop being bent when they climbed the slippery pole?

Surely the bent coppers were the rank and file.

[Berwickhibby]

Did bend coppers stop being bent when they climbed the slippery pole?

Surely the bend coppers were the rank and file.

Bent coppers were reported to professional standards …. Having arrested a copper myself I had no loyalty to him, he knew the rules, I expected better from a serving officer.

[ronaldo7]

Bent coppers were reported to professional standards …. Having arrested a copper myself I had no loyalty to him, he knew the rules, I expected better from a serving officer.

He was a rank and file officer though wasn't he. There isn't a special group within the met marked bent coppers unit.

My point is, they were living and breathing among the other officers, as are many bent folk are throughout society.

[Berwickhibby]

He was a rank and file officer though wasn't he. There isn't a special group within the met marked bent coppers unit.

My point is, they were living and breathing among the other officers, as are many bent folk are throughout society.

Obviously 🙄

[Moulin Yarns]

When it comes to searching it’s an absolute farce what is written in the press, a search on the street is Jacket, pockets, coat and hat. There are specific rules to follow, an officer just cannot go fishing and under PACE 84 in England and Wales these rules MUST be adhered to:

Grounds for the search
Object the officer is searching for
Warrant, particularly if the officer is in plain clothes if a court search
Identification, proof that the officer is indeed a police officer!
Station to which the officer is attached to
Entitlement, any citizen being searched by a police officer is entitled to copies of all paperwork
Legislation, the legal power which gives the officer the right to stop and search
YOU are being detained for the search or for the purpose of…essentially informing the citizen in no uncertain terms the purpose and nature of the search

But that does not make great headlines


That's all well and good if you are a copper and know the 'specific rules'. A young vulnerable girl isn't likely to be in possession of the police rule book though, are they?

[Berwickhibby]

That's all well and good if you are a copper and know the 'specific rules'. A young vulnerable girl isn't likely to be in possession of the police rule book though, are they?

Unless the young vulnerable girl is committing an offence to warrant a search why would she have any concerns, also searching a female must be conducted by female officers and a vulnerable person should be searched in the presence of an appropriate adult.

But as usual you continue with your snidey digs when I post

[Moulin Yarns]

Unless the young vulnerable girl is committing an offence to warrant a search why would she have any concerns, also searching a female must be conducted by female officers and a vulnerable person should be searched in the presence of an appropriate adult.

But as usual you continue with your snidey digs when I post

What snidey dig?


I, like about 99% of the population don't know what police rules are. All I'm saying is that someone stopped by the police will be unaware of their right or what the police are allowed to do. Quoting what were the rules when you were in the Met means nothing to the vast majority of people.

[wookie70]

I’m response to point 2 - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65128073

I am also in no doubt that if inspections were done on almost almost any public service or private company for that matter the results would be similar.

Bashing the police is just the flavour of the month at the moment and all stemmed from bad press in the USA somehow affecting a vocal minority of opinions over here.

UK police as a whole are probably some of the most professional in the world and do a great job whist being woefully under resourced. Most of the public agree with this and don’t let internet loudmouths / MSM let you think otherwise.
Many of those who dislike they police will never have their minds changed and will twist narrative to suit this view.

The bias in some of the reporting I read is breathtaking and written in a way that people can be easily deceived by it. The recent example is the sensationalist headline “Police strip search over 3000 children as young as 8”

What the articles then fail to mention is that

1. Less than 0.7% of these children were younger than 12. Only one was 8.

2. 76% of these “children” were 16 or 17.

3. The article falsely claims that’s these searches are invasive or involve physical touching which is simply incorrect.

4. A large majority of these searches provided positive results and were there’re clearly justified. Should these kids have been left with the drugs and say whatever to our drug death crisis? (And the media will gleefully write the headline “child dies of overdose in a police cell having not been properly searched).

Can you provide a source for "Police strip search over 3000 children as young as 8". Google can't seem to find it at least not in the top page of searches on my PC. The BBC reported - "Police strip-searched children as young as eight" which is entirely accurate and has no spin at all. Sky reported similar as did Daily Mail etc.

And of those searched 45% never even recorded the location of the search and over half had no appropriate adult present and again. Not sure what you mean by large majority provided positive results given over half led to no further action. The headlines you seem to have seen may be sensational but the bias toward searching kids that are not white British and the fact many were not guilty of anything worth pursuing to me is damning enough.

Even the figure you quote means 24% were under the age of 16, I find that pretty shocking that 750 plus kids were strip searched over the period reported on and that isn't even across every force.

I think the description that the stats revealed evidence of "deeply concerning practices" is correct. You may have no issue with kids being strip searched by an adult in a position of power without any independent witness present to advocate and half of those searches resulting in no further action but I think that is deeply concerning. I get that searches are required and that age cannot be a barrier as what is being searched for could harm the individual or others. There has to be absolute safeguards and oversight from someone outside the Police imo. Are there any stats on how many officers were involved and what gender/race they were. I'd be interested to see if there were officers who carry out far more strip searches of kids than others as that is a wholly different matter.

Bashing all Public Servants has been flavour of the past few decades. The Fire Brigade are getting similar treatment at the moment. The big difference with the Police is how much power they hold over citizens and the sheer scale and depths of the scandals, decade after decade. Report after report and scandal after scandal suggests not only are there plenty bad apples but their fellow officers seem reluctant to do the right thing and report the multitude of crimes and bad practices that seem to be rife. They are all then, understandably imo, tarred with the same brush.

[Mibbes Aye]

A close family member of mine is a Special, will be joining the police service fully once he completes his degree. I remember his assessment centre and interview prep and it genuinely was more like an interview for social work than anything else. His take on fellow officers is that they reflect the breadth of the recruitment parameters - some there to progress as far as possible up the ladder, some there because it is a reasonably decently-paid job (eventually). What is also clear is that the nature of the job lends itself to closing ranks - no pun intended. It’s a hard role to relate to unless you’ve done it or doing it.

I also think it’s one of those jobs, like social work and some other frontline public service roles where the amount of people with an opinion far exceeds this who could actually hack it.

[wookie70]

Unless the young vulnerable girl is committing an offence to warrant a search why would she have any concerns, also searching a female must be conducted by female officers and a vulnerable person should be searched in the presence of an appropriate adult.

But as usual you continue with your snidey digs when I post

Would that be suspected of committing an offence. I've certainly been stopped quite a few times walking home minding my own business. Once or twice when I was under 18. It actually scares me to think that if the officers had taken a disliking to me they could have strip searched me. I think anyone being strip searched would be concerned regardless of whether they have anything on them and particularly if the only witnesses are two officers who are conducting the search. If it is in a station and under proper supervision then that is a different matter but the report suggest that is far from always being the case.

Also would a 15 year old not be vulnerable purely by virtue of their age. I actually don't have a huge issue with properly conducted searches but again the stats seem to suggest that if you are black you will get stopped and searched far, far more often. That is an issue for me. I'm not sure of the rules but I find it disturbing that a kid under 16 could be strip searched without a parent or appropriate adult present regardless of crime.

[Berwickhibby]

Would that be suspected of committing an offence. I've certainly been stopped quite a few times walking home minding my own business. Once or twice when I was under 18. It actually scares me to think that if the officers had taken a disliking to me they could have strip searched me. I think anyone being strip searched would be concerned regardless of whether they have anything on them and particularly if the only witnesses are two officers who are conducting the search. If it is in a station and under proper supervision then that is a different matter but the report suggest that is far from always being the case.

Also would a 15 year old not be vulnerable purely by virtue of their age. I actually don't have a huge issue with properly conducted searches but again the stats seem to suggest that if you are black you will get stopped and searched far, far more often. That is an issue for me. I'm not sure of the rules but I find it disturbing that a kid under 16 could be strip searched without a parent or appropriate adult present regardless of crime.

Being stopped and asking for you to account for your movements is a million miles away from being stripped searched, also just a standard search, officers require reasonable grounds, unless it’s life threatening. strip searches are conducted at a police station or hospital. Intimate searches need a Superintendents or above authority and conducted by a nurse or a Dr. The majority of strip searches that are conducted at police stations and normally conducted to find weapons or anything that could cause self harm. Just to ease your fears, body cams are worn to protect your rights and the malicious allegations made by certain members of the public.

[ronaldo7]

Obviously 🙄

It's just that your previous post made it sound like the rank and file were somehow different to the bent coppers when in fact they were one and the same. Caveated with not all of them. Obviously. 😉

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/31/police-officer-jailed-for-pulling-down-womans-top-photographing-her?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1680271162-1

Out with other officers but none of them stopped him?


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[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/31/police-officer-jailed-for-pulling-down-womans-top-photographing-her?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1680271162-1

Out with other officers but none of them stopped him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the crux of the matter imo, and where the institutional element comes into play.

Every workplace has dodgy characters. One police officer committing an offence isnt the issue - it's that time after time, what we hear about their colleagues totally ignoring, or sometimes participating in this behaviour. That is the really scary part.

[Paulie Walnuts]

This is the crux of the matter imo, and where the institutional element comes into play.

Every workplace has dodgy characters. One police officer committing an offence isnt the issue - it's that time after time, what we hear about their colleagues totally ignoring, or sometimes participating in this behaviour. That is the really scary part.

:agree:

A vile institution.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is the crux of the matter imo, and where the institutional element comes into play.

Every workplace has dodgy characters. One police officer committing an offence isnt the issue - it's that time after time, what we hear about their colleagues totally ignoring, or sometimes participating in this behaviour. That is the really scary part.

Absolutely no defence against that.

[hibsbollah]

https://justice4grenfell.org/2771/

A reminder that the black community’s issues with the Met aren’t a recent thing, as Steve McQueens excellent Black Axe series of films made clear. The Mangrove being a case in point. Stop n Search became a regular occurrence.

[Scouse Hibee]

:agree:

A vile institution.

Absolutely, a shame that the decent cops within this institution are tarred with the same brush by many.

[wookie70]

Another week or so of horror shows for the Met. Now policing the thoughts of protestors, lifting community helpers trying to protect vulnerable women and violently murdering dogs who looked to be more under control that most would be given the appearance of 7 officers with weapons. That was all before yet another cover up appears to have been uncovered with "missing" files from the Daniel Morgan murder being revealed by a journalist. Two officers dismissed for kicking a child and then lying about it but no charges brought against them that I can see. Another Officer facing a disciplinary after not following procedures when Wayne Couzens was caught flashing. I suppose on the plus side an officer who paralysed someone who was running away has been found not guilty.

[overdrive]

Another week or so of horror shows for the Met. Now policing the thoughts of protestors, lifting community helpers trying to protect vulnerable women and violently murdering dogs who looked to be more under control that most would be given the appearance of 7 officers with weapons. That was all before yet another cover up appears to have been uncovered with "missing" files from the Daniel Morgan murder being revealed by a journalist. Two officers dismissed for kicking a child and then lying about it but no charges brought against them that I can see. Another Officer facing a disciplinary after not following procedures when Wayne Couzens was caught flashing. I suppose on the plus side an officer who paralysed someone who was running away has been found not guilty.

It was apparently a "good weekend" for the Met. Well, according to the Inspector of Constabulary for the Met. Even those responsible for holding them to account don't see anything wrong in their actions.

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/12/police-apologise-after-detaining-royal-superfan-for-13-hours-coronation-just-stop-oil

This is seriously troubling. Arresting protestors because they have potential to breach the peace is really, really bad.

But this shows how poorly the new law around protest is being enforced - just being around those who may possibly do some protesting is enough to get you lifted and held for half a day.

The right-wing press should be all over this but I suspect there won't any analysis of how we've got to this position.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Another week or so of horror shows for the Met. Now policing the thoughts of protestors, lifting community helpers trying to protect vulnerable women and violently murdering dogs who looked to be more under control that most would be given the appearance of 7 officers with weapons. That was all before yet another cover up appears to have been uncovered with "missing" files from the Daniel Morgan murder being revealed by a journalist. Two officers dismissed for kicking a child and then lying about it but no charges brought against them that I can see. Another Officer facing a disciplinary after not following procedures when Wayne Couzens was caught flashing. I suppose on the plus side an officer who paralysed someone who was running away has been found not guilty.

Saw the dog video the other day.

Horrific.

[Bostonhibby]

It was apparently a "good weekend" for the Met. Well, according to the Inspector of Constabulary for the Met. Even those responsible for holding them to account don't see anything wrong in their actions.A pat on the head for both from Braverman will be how success is measured.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000612649455


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[wookie70]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/12/police-apologise-after-detaining-royal-superfan-for-13-hours-coronation-just-stop-oil

This is seriously troubling. Arresting protestors because they have potential to breach the peace is really, really bad.

But this shows how poorly the new law around protest is being enforced - just being around those who may possibly do some protesting is enough to get you lifted and held for half a day.

The right-wing press should be all over this but I suspect there won't any analysis of how we've got to this position.

It is even worse in some ways. Arresting people who are in the vicinity of someone who has the potential to breach the peace. I read that after my initial post. What goes through these officers heads. The incident with the dogs was utterly bizarre. I have witnessed Police Dogs looking similar at protests at football grounds. They were in no way aggressive and the big worry is why the officers chose that course of action. 7 Officers seems extreme and likely to provoke and similarly in the case of the guy who was paralysed there was 9 officers in the van during Covid. How does that make any sense. Is this a matter of training being lacking, a tactic to create a force that intimidates or just employing sadistic officers. Meanwhile in Wales (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-refuse-to-confirm-if-officer-who-punched-man-in-head-nine-times-is-still-on-duty-125115764.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ 2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIIrVDyZ0OwVfXfLTdUUzHujJybj xANhb0EIfe_v5ygbDtNPeyCOTnF7X1l70o6FuLgKOb3K3UIepT 8cY0vWIYVD7RPQPWKppxjglbuDJwLOhNcQBurmc8_RYXRuMinV WP1-RaWDqzwCGIeFtGefcxj_Jhm7JTCscwcvWNqvej_a)

I have had some dealings with Police in the last week or two as my daughter has got into a few difficult situations. A couple of them were lovely and really empathetic and showed some common sense in dealing with my daughter who is very vulnerable. They went a bit old school telling her what her choices may lead to etc. Another couple just made a difficult situation worse. All were very young, I would guess in their early 20s and a pretty even split of male and female officers. Are there many experienced officers left in Lothians

[Mibbes Aye]

Another week or so of horror shows for the Met. Now policing the thoughts of protestors, lifting community helpers trying to protect vulnerable women and violently murdering dogs who looked to be more under control that most would be given the appearance of 7 officers with weapons. That was all before yet another cover up appears to have been uncovered with "missing" files from the Daniel Morgan murder being revealed by a journalist. Two officers dismissed for kicking a child and then lying about it but no charges brought against them that I can see. Another Officer facing a disciplinary after not following procedures when Wayne Couzens was caught flashing. I suppose on the plus side an officer who paralysed someone who was running away has been found not guilty.

The Met is in a terrible place, has been for a long time and many times previously. The challenge for it is to address failings across different fields - systems and processes on the one hand, culture and practice on the other. That requires leadership of change and very good leadership to accomplish that. Whether it is possible has to be in doubt but supposed solutions like breaking the force up into smaller commands won't address culture and practice in themelves.

I think a couple of your criticisms need contextualising as they are somewhat unfair without that. The 14 year-old who had been assualted by the two officers, after spitting in the face pf one of them and then fleeing - the officers concerned did use unnecessary and excessive force and that can not be justified in any way. That's why they were dismissed. But charges were a matter for the CPS not the Met (and in fact I think the Met had self-referred to IPOC in the first place, leading to the two officers losing their job and pension).

The incident with the dogs didn't make for pleasant viewing but the police were responding to a call that the dogs had already attacked a woman. I don't know how you would act in their shoes but in that situation I don't think I would be doing much differently. Describing it as "violently murdering dogs" feels like hyperbole.

[Jones28]

The Met is in a terrible place, has been for a long time and many times previously. The challenge for it is to address failings across different fields - systems and processes on the one hand, culture and practice on the other. That requires leadership of change and very good leadership to accomplish that. Whether it is possible has to be in doubt but supposed solutions like breaking the force up into smaller commands won't address culture and practice in themelves.

I think a couple of your criticisms need contextualising as they are somewhat unfair without that. The 14 year-old who had been assualted by the two officers, after spitting in the face pf one of them and then fleeing - the officers concerned did use unnecessary and excessive force and that can not be justified in any way. That's why they were dismissed. But charges were a matter for the CPS not the Met (and in fact I think the Met had self-referred to IPOC in the first place, leading to the two officers losing their job and pension).

The incident with the dogs didn't make for pleasant viewing but the police were responding to a call that the dogs had already attacked a woman. I don't know how you would act in their shoes but in that situation I don't think I would be doing much differently. Describing it as "violently murdering dogs" feels like hyperbole.

Re the dogs, there’s been lots of commentary on Twitter about it and it’s not something I particularly want to stick an oar in to. The video is awful, was there any sort of investigation in to the dogs and if they had attacked someone?

[BroxburnHibee]

The original video of the dogs is horrific but I then spotted an earlier video of the same incident which showed the police pleading with the guy to get them under control as they didn't want to harm them. He then seems to let one go for them - It was a horrible video nonetheless.

[Bristolhibby]

Being stopped and asking for you to account for your movements is a million miles away from being stripped searched, also just a standard search, officers require reasonable grounds, unless it’s life threatening. strip searches are conducted at a police station or hospital. Intimate searches need a Superintendents or above authority and conducted by a nurse or a Dr. The majority of strip searches that are conducted at police stations and normally conducted to find weapons or anything that could cause self harm. Just to ease your fears, body cams are worn to protect your rights and the malicious allegations made by certain members of the public.

Why would you need to be stopped and account for your movements?

J

[wookie70]

The Met is in a terrible place, has been for a long time and many times previously. The challenge for it is to address failings across different fields - systems and processes on the one hand, culture and practice on the other. That requires leadership of change and very good leadership to accomplish that. Whether it is possible has to be in doubt but supposed solutions like breaking the force up into smaller commands won't address culture and practice in themelves.

I think a couple of your criticisms need contextualising as they are somewhat unfair without that. The 14 year-old who had been assualted by the two officers, after spitting in the face pf one of them and then fleeing - the officers concerned did use unnecessary and excessive force and that can not be justified in any way. That's why they were dismissed. But charges were a matter for the CPS not the Met (and in fact I think the Met had self-referred to IPOC in the first place, leading to the two officers losing their job and pension).

The incident with the dogs didn't make for pleasant viewing but the police were responding to a call that the dogs had already attacked a woman. I don't know how you would act in their shoes but in that situation I don't think I would be doing much differently. Describing it as "violently murdering dogs" feels like hyperbole.

I don't think it is hyberbole. If the dogs were off the leash then fair enough you have concerns for safety of yourself and public but they were perfectly under control and acting like you would expect given the situation in front of them. The guy callled them back a couple of times and they stopped barking and came back to him. I never knew about the alleged attack and there appears to be very little details of that. I presume the woman must have been very badly injured and was just minding her own business when the attack happened to warrant 7 officers, riot shields, tazers and guns

As for the 14 year old. If my brother and I beat up a kid after chasing them down for spitting on me do you think there would be no charges brought. I want the Police to be treated at least as harshly as other citizens when they commit these types of acts. The uniform shouldn't save them it should actually mean they are expected to behave better.

[silverhibee]

The Met is in a terrible place, has been for a long time and many times previously. The challenge for it is to address failings across different fields - systems and processes on the one hand, culture and practice on the other. That requires leadership of change and very good leadership to accomplish that. Whether it is possible has to be in doubt but supposed solutions like breaking the force up into smaller commands won't address culture and practice in themelves.

I think a couple of your criticisms need contextualising as they are somewhat unfair without that. The 14 year-old who had been assualted by the two officers, after spitting in the face pf one of them and then fleeing - the officers concerned did use unnecessary and excessive force and that can not be justified in any way. That's why they were dismissed. But charges were a matter for the CPS not the Met (and in fact I think the Met had self-referred to IPOC in the first place, leading to the two officers losing their job and pension).

The incident with the dogs didn't make for pleasant viewing but the police were responding to a call that the dogs had already attacked a woman. I don't know how you would act in their shoes but in that situation I don't think I would be doing much differently. Describing it as "violently murdering dogs" feels like hyperbole.

The women who the met said had been mauled by the two dogs was more lies, allegedly she suffered an injury to her leg but did not need hospital treatment, the only crime committed by the guy was he was banned/disqualified from keeping dogs

The IOPC to now investigate met police officers after man tasered and the shooting of the two dogs, should the police be discharging a gun when the there is people in the vicinity, ie the folk standing on balconies watching it.

It would also seem the met have upped the ante on folk who do YouTube auditing in London, seen one video where a off duty police officer had said he seen two guys with masks on there faces and had reported that he seen one of them with a knife and had put it in to a rucksack, police surrounded the two guys with firearms and detained them for a search where no knife was found and then tried to say they were trespassing on a building, pretty scary stuff, the sergeant in charge was a tyrant, News Now Yorkshire is the guy’s channel, and auditing Britain was detained yesterday by police because he dared look at police officers parked up in a van at a roundabout just of M25, the sergeant in that video demanded she not be filmed which was declined and she got very abusive towards the guy with a camera.

Met police have taken the side of this government with the new rules introduced lately and it will come back to haunt them more likely this summer, they are a gang that are out of control and they will do something that brings folk on to the streets and we will see rioting in the summer in London.

[silverhibee]

I don't think it is hyberbole. If the dogs were off the leash then fair enough you have concerns for safety of yourself and public but they were perfectly under control and acting like you would expect given the situation in front of them. The guy callled them back a couple of times and they stopped barking and came back to him. I never knew about the alleged attack and there appears to be very little details of that. I presume the woman must have been very badly injured and was just minding her own business when the attack happened to warrant 7 officers, riot shields, tazers and guns

As for the 14 year old. If my brother and I beat up a kid after chasing them down for spitting on me do you think there would be no charges brought. I want the Police to be treated at least as harshly as other citizens when they commit these types of acts. The uniform shouldn't save them it should actually mean they are expected to behave better.

As I said in below post, reports are the woman was allegedly attacked by a dog and suffered an injury to her leg but didn’t need medical attention, what the met police haven’t said is it was the two dogs that were shot later on, it would seem the guy was disqualified from owning dogs, why not just wait until he went home or officers were equipped with proper gear to protect them when trying to take the dogs from the guy, it looks like a armed response vehicle was called and they took the action they did.

And when did the police start carrying shotguns.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't think it is hyberbole. If the dogs were off the leash then fair enough you have concerns for safety of yourself and public but they were perfectly under control and acting like you would expect given the situation in front of them. The guy callled them back a couple of times and they stopped barking and came back to him. I never knew about the alleged attack and there appears to be very little details of that. I presume the woman must have been very badly injured and was just minding her own business when the attack happened to warrant 7 officers, riot shields, tazers and guns

As for the 14 year old. If my brother and I beat up a kid after chasing them down for spitting on me do you think there would be no charges brought. I want the Police to be treated at least as harshly as other citizens when they commit these types of acts. The uniform shouldn't save them it should actually mean they are expected to behave better.

Surely it doesn't matter if she was seriously injured or not - if she was attacked then by default that escalates the response. Out of interest, what if it had been a child, or a child next?

As for your last paragraph, I thought it was clear in my last post - it wasn't the Met who declined to prosecute, that decision sits with the CPS. The police did self-report and sacked the officers, which is the sanction they had available.

I agree with your point about people in their position setting a higher standard, for me that goes hand-in-hand with being granted the powers. Their unifrom didn't save them though - they lost their career and pension and possibly the likelihood of ever again working in a position of trust. That seems deserved but it is also the limit of what the Met could have done.

[Mibbes Aye]

As I said in below post, reports are the woman was allegedly attacked by a dog and suffered an injury to her leg but didn’t need medical attention, what the met police haven’t said is it was the two dogs that were shot later on, it would seem the guy was disqualified from owning dogs, why not just wait until he went home or officers were equipped with proper gear to protect them when trying to take the dogs from the guy, it looks like a armed response vehicle was called and they took the action they did.

And when did the police start carrying shotguns.

I don't think it is a new thing. My understanding is the ones in use by the Met have the capability to fire non-lethal ammunition. Having said that, that doesn't mean they weren't using 'proper' rounds - I would imagine it would be dictated by the standard operating procedure.

[Mibbes Aye]

As I said in below post, reports are the woman was allegedly attacked by a dog and suffered an injury to her leg but didn’t need medical attention, what the met police haven’t said is it was the two dogs that were shot later on, it would seem the guy was disqualified from owning dogs, why not just wait until he went home or officers were equipped with proper gear to protect them when trying to take the dogs from the guy, it looks like a armed response vehicle was called and they took the action they did.

And when did the police start carrying shotguns.

I would imaagine that if they were responding to a job where the shout was dog/dogs attacking a woman then they would be compelled to act, rather than let the man make his merry way home. What if he wasn't going home? What if someone got attacked while they stood watching? They would be crucified.

As for the proper gear, and without trying to elicit sympathy for the Met, they have faced brutal cuts just like the rest of the public sector for thirteen years. I'm not sure they would necessarily be able to respond directly with the proper gear or with officers trained in animal control.

[grunt]

This story is NOT about the Met police, but I thought this was the most appropriate police-related thread.

https://t.co/5CuatCcsfx


The BBC has verified CCTV footage appearing to show a police van following two people on an electric bike minutes before a fatal crash that sparked a riot in Cardiff.

It comes after South Wales Police and Crime Commissioner Alun Michael told the BBC that a chase did not take place.

[Paul1642]

Footage from a different angle

https://twitter.com/bowmyster/status/1661439250355683328?s=46&t=QfwAUDYQuecN_TDBpg3wPA

Shows the police van a fair distance behind, no sirens activated, and taking a left turn when the scrambler bike has gone straight ahead. Doesn’t look like a pursuit to me.

The latest timeline published by the force seems to show a story of officers observing the rider commitment an offence, following on before the decision being made that a pursuit would not be safe, and thereafter completely disengaging and taking a different direction from the riders.

Should cops now not even attempt to get a look at riders incase they drive away dangerously and harm themselves?

[Stairway 2 7]

Footage from a different angle

https://twitter.com/bowmyster/status/1661439250355683328?s=46&t=QfwAUDYQuecN_TDBpg3wPA

Shows the police van a fair distance behind, no sirens activated, and taking a left turn when the scrambler bike has gone straight ahead. Doesn’t look like a pursuit to me.

The latest timeline published by the force seems to show a story of officers observing the rider commitment an offence, following on before the decision being made that a pursuit would not be safe, and thereafter completely disengaging and taking a different direction from the riders.

Should cops now not even attempt to get a look at riders incase they drive away dangerously and harm themselves?

Boys were doing 30, obviously a tragic accident that happens all to often from young lads firing about towns. No sure what the police can do to stop it as more people are going to die and not just the drivers

[Jack]

Footage from a different angle

https://twitter.com/bowmyster/status/1661439250355683328?s=46&t=QfwAUDYQuecN_TDBpg3wPA

Shows the police van a fair distance behind, no sirens activated, and taking a left turn when the scrambler bike has gone straight ahead. Doesn’t look like a pursuit to me.

The latest timeline published by the force seems to show a story of officers observing the rider commitment an offence, following on before the decision being made that a pursuit would not be safe, and thereafter completely disengaging and taking a different direction from the riders.

Should cops now not even attempt to get a look at riders incase they drive away dangerously and harm themselves?

There's only going to be one winner in a race between a bike like that and a meat wagon.

[neil7908]

Footage from a different angle

https://twitter.com/bowmyster/status/1661439250355683328?s=46&t=QfwAUDYQuecN_TDBpg3wPA

Shows the police van a fair distance behind, no sirens activated, and taking a left turn when the scrambler bike has gone straight ahead. Doesn’t look like a pursuit to me.

The latest timeline published by the force seems to show a story of officers observing the rider commitment an offence, following on before the decision being made that a pursuit would not be safe, and thereafter completely disengaging and taking a different direction from the riders.

Should cops now not even attempt to get a look at riders incase they drive away dangerously and harm themselves?

Yup, can't see they have done anything wrong there.

I don't want to appear insensitive when two young lads have lost their lives but as you say, we can't have a scenario where anyone on a bike is deemed untouchable.

[wookie70]

One of the videos looks like they were in pursuit but the one posted above shows them miles behind. No way of knowing from what I have seen if the police are at fault but the lads were definitely riding illegally due to their age and the speed the bike was going etc. I have sympathy for the Police in these circumstances as the bike could well have been viewed as a danger to pedestrians etc but how do you stop it without putting riders in serious dangers. I guess you would arrest after they stopped as they will know who is riding but one of the videos shows them chasing close behind at speed. It needs looked at as does ebikes and scooters in general. To me they should be part of the way we move in cities and rules should be established for their safe use

[Hibrandenburg]

Just spent 5 days working with 5 Met officers and on some downtime we started talking about the reputation of the Met. I got the feeling that these guys were decent human beings who were trying to do a difficult job made even worse by the bad apples amongst them. These guys were all previously beat/traffic coppers before specialising into their current roles and alongside the desire work in the job they are now doing, their main motivation for moving into their current posts was to get out of front line police work where the **** not only drips down but also up.

I was also told that the Tories have all but destroyed police moral across England and Wales. The Tories claim they have recruited in excess of 15 000 new officers whereas in fact they have simply changed the contracts of nearly 15 000 officers who were already serving and only counted the new contracts as new recruits conveniently forgetting that these same officers were already serving beforehand. If true it's utterly scandalous.

[overdrive]

Again, not the Met but the chief constable of Police Scotland has admitted the force is institutionally racist, sexist, misogynistic and discriminatory.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65706748 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65706748)

[Callum_62]

Just spent 5 days working with 5 Met officers and on some downtime we started talking about the reputation of the Met. I got the feeling that these guys were decent human beings who were trying to do a difficult job made even worse by the bad apples amongst them. These guys were all previously beat/traffic coppers before specialising into their current roles and alongside the desire work in the job they are now doing, their main motivation for moving into their current posts was to get out of front line police work where the **** not only drips down but also up.

I was also told that the Tories have all but destroyed police moral across England and Wales. The Tories claim they have recruited in excess of 15 000 new officers whereas in fact they have simply changed the contracts of nearly 15 000 officers who were already serving and only counted the new contracts as new recruits conveniently forgetting that these same officers were already serving beforehand. If true it's utterly scandalous.They done the same with nurses who "didn't leave"

Counted them as new nurses

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

Again, not the Met but the chief constable of Police Scotland has admitted the force is institutionally racist, sexist, misogynistic and discriminatory.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65706748 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65706748)

If the Tories are to blame for the Met’s problems who takes the blame for Police Scotland’s. I’m guessing it’s Westminster as well. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

If the Tories are to blame for the Met’s problems who takes the blame for Police Scotland’s. I’m guessing it’s Westminster as well. :greengrin

Only one of those organisations admits it has a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

If the Tories are to blame for the Met’s problems who takes the blame for Police Scotland’s. I’m guessing it’s Westminster as well. :greengrin
Who is suggesting this?

[wookie70]

They would fit in well with the diplomats we have in Government - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66512440

[Colr]

If the Tories are to blame for the Met’s problems who takes the blame for Police Scotland’s. I’m guessing it’s Westminster as well. :greengrin

Police Scotland investigate politicians, the Met don’t.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not the met and the other side of the spectrum, but what a brave man trying to help, very sad

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/nottingham-police-officer-hit-by-train-while-helping-distressed-man-has-died-12950263

Sergeant Graham Saville: Nottinghamshire police officer hit by train while helping 'distressed' man has died

[speedy_gonzales]

Not the met and the other side of the spectrum, but what a brave man trying to help, very sad.


This story has actually angered me more than it should.
It happened last week and it was reported then that the Policeman did not receive grievous injuries, even though he was hit by a train. He was lineside trying to help (I'm guessing here) a person in serious distress and contemplating end of life measures. That person, although also serious injured through coming in to contact with traction current, is still alive today and the policeman is dead for doing something he perhaps shouldn't have but sometimes human nature kicks in.

A few years ago there was a story of some youngsters getting in to trouble on a lake/pond, the Fire Brigade arrived but they initially didn't assist as they weren't trained for the dangers, much to the disgust of locals.
This is exactly why professional first responders can't just jump in. The Sarge must have thought he was doing the right thing for the right reasons but paid the ultimate price!

[wookie70]

This story has actually angered me more than it should.
It happened last week and it was reported then that the Policeman did not receive grievous injuries, even though he was hit by a train. He was lineside trying to help (I'm guessing here) a person in serious distress and contemplating end of life measures. That person, although also serious injured through coming in to contact with traction current, is still alive today and the policeman is dead for doing something he perhaps shouldn't have but sometimes human nature kicks in.

A few years ago there was a story of some youngsters getting in to trouble on a lake/pond, the Fire Brigade arrived but they initially didn't assist as they weren't trained for the dangers, much to the disgust of locals.
This is exactly why professional first responders can't just jump in. The Sarge must have thought he was doing the right thing for the right reasons but paid the ultimate price!

As you suggest not enough details to really know what happened and certainly not enough to say the person injured was contemplating anything. The first rule of First Aid is very sensible. Assess the situation and don't get yourself injured or worse trying to help. I imagine something similar will be there for all emergency services but as you say instinct may have kicked in and it looks like he was trying to save a member of the public. RiP to the officer and hopefully a full enquiry gets to the bottom of what happened and establishes or re-enforces protocols that prevent this happening again and gets to teh bottom of what actually happened.

[speedy_gonzales]

As you suggest not enough details to really know what happened and certainly not enough to say the person injured was contemplating anything. The first rule of First Aid is very sensible. Assess the situation and don't get yourself injured or worse trying to help. I imagine something similar will be there for all emergency services but as you say instinct may have kicked in and it looks like he was trying to save a member of the public. RiP to the officer and hopefully a full enquiry gets to the bottom of what happened and establishes or re-enforces protocols that prevent this happening again and gets to teh bottom of what actually happened.

There is a wee bit speculation going on, but the facts as I understand them (I work on the railway), the Police attended to assist a member of the public. I've seen/heard that phrase used far too many times.
Another issue that's been raised is the Policeman was on live rails, the BTP are fairly good at getting the line closed before crossing the railway boundary but civvy Police not so much. Unfortunately,BTP are like hens teeth at the moment.
I feared the worst last week when I heard he was hit, not many folk walk away from a train strike unscathed, the energy involved is nothing like being hit by a car or even a truck.

[Hermit Crab]

There is a wee bit speculation going on, but the facts as I understand them (I work on the railway), the Police attended to assist a member of the public. I've seen/heard that phrase used far too many times.
Another issue that's been raised is the Policeman was on live rails, the BTP are fairly good at getting the line closed before crossing the railway boundary but civvy Police not so much. Unfortunately,BTP are like hens teeth at the moment.
I feared the worst last week when I heard he was hit, not many folk walk away from a train strike unscathed, the energy involved is nothing like being hit by a car or even a truck.


If it had been a BTP officer first thing they'd do if possible is get all traffic stopped and all overheads or third rails isolated, appreciate that is always possible given the time involved in doing all this. I reckon the officer has done what thought was the right thing to do in a split second decision, unfortunately this is one of those rescue situations where it hasn't ended well for all involved. Its sad but it does happen.

That third rail is a sneaky one, on more than one occasion I've had to go trackside near a third rail, you need to keep your wits about you.

[stu in nottingham]

There is a wee bit speculation going on, but the facts as I understand them (I work on the railway), the Police attended to assist a member of the public. I've seen/heard that phrase used far too many times.
Another issue that's been raised is the Policeman was on live rails, the BTP are fairly good at getting the line closed before crossing the railway boundary but civvy Police not so much. Unfortunately,BTP are like hens teeth at the moment.
I feared the worst last week when I heard he was hit, not many folk walk away from a train strike unscathed, the energy involved is nothing like being hit by a car or even a truck.

Such a very sad story. Seem to recall initial reports of the incident described Sergeant Graham Saville as in a 'critical' state when he taken to the Queen's Medical Centre. I'm not sure if that is distinct from 'grevious' but you would certainly know better than me regarding that, Speedy.

Naturally, a full inquiry has now been launched as one would expect. Flags are being flown at half-mast around Newark-on-Trent where the officer was based. There have been numerous incidents on the East Coast line near Newark Northgate over the years. A Just Giving page has now raised over £90,000 towards its target of £100,000.

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/Baldertonpolicehero?utm-term=y4Xb5N7NJ

There is something about this story that touches us all I think. The inherent selflessness, goodness and spirit of this officer to help someone apparently, in grave need. It feels somewhat rarer these days but Sergeant Graham Saville showed it is still amongst us. A heroic and caring man. God bless him.

27170

[neil7908]

At it again:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/15/met-police-agree-six-figure-payout-to-alfie-meadows-hit-by-baton-at-protest

[Paul1642]

At it again:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/15/met-police-agree-six-figure-payout-to-alfie-meadows-hit-by-baton-at-protest

At it again, 13 years ago…

[neil7908]

And as recently as 2019 they were investigating and couldn't identify who struck the blow. So there's a good chance they will still be on the force, having got off scot-free.

Alfie makes a good point in the article about how this fits into the wider narrative around the Met:

“After I was seriously injured by a police officer, the entire institution closed ranks, attempting to blame and criminalise me, defend its officer, and delay and deny accountability."

Sounds pretty familiar.

[wookie70]

At it again, 13 years ago… It should have been dealt with back then. As per the establishment closed ranks. Hopefully, this will see the start of more cases against the police engaging in violence against peaceful protestors and maybe the odd one will see the officers actually facing charges for their actions rather than just tax payers footing the bill.

[DaveF]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66842521

That number is insane. Clearly they had / have little or no vetting process and hired any old rapist, murderer, racist..

[Paulie Walnuts]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66842521

That number is insane. Clearly they had / have little or no vetting process and hired any old rapist, murderer, racist..

That is unbelievable.

They’ll likely all be on full pay I’d imagine as well.

[overdrive]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66842521

That number is insane. Clearly they had / have little or no vetting process and hired any old rapist, murderer, racist..

Scary thing is, that's just the number who have been caught/reported doing something dodgy. How many more dodgy cops are there under the radar?

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8x1RRvWkAAdzww?format=jpg&name=large

[lapsedhibee]

Calls for Met to bring charges against Piers Morgan for perjuring himself at Leveson Inquiry. Which is pleasing, but will never happen, because then they might have to bring charges against Sunak and Johnson for perjuring themselves at the Covid Inquiry.

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/09/met-police-officers-dissuaded-children-making-sexual-abuse-claims-report

[Moulin Yarns]

Summary of investigation of couzens

The man who killed Sarah Everard in south London in 2021 should never have been a police officer, an inquiry has said
Wayne Couzens' liking for violent and extreme pornography and his history of alleged sexual offending dated back nearly 20 years
Couzens joined Kent Police as a special constable in 2002, before joining the Metropolitan Police in 2018
He is accused of sexually assaulting a child "barely in her teens" while in his early 20s
The inquiry says "without a significant overhaul, there is nothing to stop another Couzens operating in plain sight"
Couzens, who was off-duty, murdered Sarah Everard after kidnapping her under the false guise of an arrest
He was sacked by the Met after his arrest and is now serving a whole-life sentence
Responding to the inquiry, the Everard family says "we believe that Sarah died because he was a police officer - she would never have got into a stranger's car"
The Angiolini Inquiry's first stage has been considering what the Met knew about Couzens’ reported behaviour before Sarah's murder

[CropleyWasGod]

Should we have a separate thread for Police Scotland and Strathclyde Police, particularly in light of their appalling incompetence in the Emma Caldwell case?

[marinello59]

Should we have a separate thread for Police Scotland and Strathclyde Police, particularly in light of their appalling incompetence in the Emma Caldwell case?

Definitely.
The interview with Emma Caldwell's Mother had me close to tears. I doubt she will ever find peace.

[wookie70]

Another disaster for the Met. This time it looks like shear incompetency at best - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck7l3zy7z3no

[Ozyhibby]

Another disaster for the Met. This time it looks like shear incompetency at best - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ck7l3zy7z3no

Given the Met’s reputation is anyone surprised they found a way to help him?


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[Berwickhibby]

Given the Met’s reputation is anyone surprised they found a way to help him?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You spraff some utter guff….some inspector made a clerical error on a form and now it’s some conspiracy to help Robinson …that’s why he was sprayed and cuffed and put before a court

[wookie70]

You spraff some utter guff….some inspector made a clerical error on a form and now it’s some conspiracy to help Robinson …that’s why he was sprayed and cuffed and put before a court

I have only read the story I posted but surely it must be more than one officer making a clerical error. Others would have had to have read the order to enforce it, then there would be charges made etc which would presumably mean reading what the crime was, then the CPS would have had to decide it was worth pursuing. It almost seems inconceivable that all those errors could be made and no-one noticed. As said though I am assuming a bit there as I only read the story but at this stage it has been a massive win for fascists and given the politics of the current government they will be delighted to have another anti-immigrant, pro Israel foot soldier spreading their hate with the Met tiptoeing round them.

[Bostonhibby]

You spraff some utter guff….some inspector made a clerical error on a form and now it’s some conspiracy to help Robinson …that’s why he was sprayed and cuffed and put before a courtI'm really not a Met fan at all but I think you're right, hopefully they will keep an eye on rat boy Yaxley-Lennon and get him next time.

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[Berwickhibby]

I have only read the story I posted but surely it must be more than one officer making a clerical error. Others would have had to have read the order to enforce it, then there would be charges made etc which would presumably mean reading what the crime was, then the CPS would have had to decide it was worth pursuing. It almost seems inconceivable that all those errors could be made and no-one noticed. As said though I am assuming a bit there as I only read the story but at this stage it has been a massive win for fascists and given the politics of the current government they will be delighted to have another anti-immigrant, pro Israel foot soldier spreading their hate with the Met tiptoeing round them.

Never physically seen a dispersal order… the information comes from the control room via radio to officers on the ground. The custody officer and interviewing officers would only have the computer generated incident report stating the dispersal registered number when completing case papers. I will agree that it should have been picked up by CPS once the Court papers and disclosure documents were prepared.

I can see an inspector being busted

[wookie70]

Never physically seen a dispersal order… the information comes from the control room via radio to officers on the ground. The custody officer and interviewing officers would only have the computer generated incident report stating the dispersal registered number when completing case papers. I will agree that it should have been picked up by CPS once the Court papers and disclosure documents were prepared.

I can see an inspector being busted

Cheers, that really helps with my understanding. Sounds like there has still been a few errors but unlikely the actual officers on the ground were to blame. If by busted you mean asked to leave with an enhanced pension/severance then that would be what my thinking would be too

[Berwickhibby]

Cheers, that really helps with my understanding. Sounds like there has still been a few errors but unlikely the actual officers on the ground were to blame. If by busted you mean asked to leave with an enhanced pension/severance then that would be what my thinking would be too

No reduced to Sergeant

[JimBHibees]

You would assume these documents are checked thoroughly prior to going to cps and then court. Bit odd

[wookie70]

No reduced to Sergeant If it was a genuine mistake he shouldn't really face any great punishment. Considering some of teh horrendous stuff that has went completely unpunished over the years this may well have been an honest mistake.

[Paul1642]

Never physically seen a dispersal order… the information comes from the control room via radio to officers on the ground. The custody officer and interviewing officers would only have the computer generated incident report stating the dispersal registered number when completing case papers. I will agree that it should have been picked up by CPS once the Court papers and disclosure documents were prepared.

I can see an inspector being busted

I would hope not. Cases collapse all of the time for numerous reasons including errors with documents. It’s bit of a high profile case due to the who accused was however cases for much more serious offences than a breach of a dispersal order collapse without any consequences for the officer(s) who made the mistake.

Under recourse a services and mistakes will increase. The authorising officer likely had a handful of things to deal with at the time and made a mistake. Who hasn’t put the wrong date on something before, either by amending a template form and not changing it or by simply getting it wrong.

Anything other than a red face would be harsh IMO.

[Mon Dieu4]

I would hope not. Cases collapse all of the time for numerous reasons including errors with documents. It’s bit of a high profile case due to the who accused was however cases for much more serious offences than a breach of a dispersal order collapse without any consequences for the officer(s) who made the mistake.

Under recourse a services and mistakes will increase. The authorising officer likely had a handful of things to deal with at the time and made a mistake. Who hasn’t put the wrong date on something before, either by amending a template form and not changing it or by simply getting it wrong.

Anything other than a red face would be harsh IMO.

I saw something that said in this instance the dude who signed the form didn't even have authority to sign a form for that location, the time was incorrect so they went back in and changed it after the fact, the correct wording wasn't presented to TR by the police officer at the time of confronting him and he was arrested 35 seconds after they gave him it therefore not giving him enough time to respond and tell them if he may have been exempt for any reason

Seems like there were a whole host of errors made which makes a total erky into some kind of martyr

[Berwickhibby]

I would hope not. Cases collapse all of the time for numerous reasons including errors with documents. It’s bit of a high profile case due to the who accused was however cases for much more serious offences than a breach of a dispersal order collapse without any consequences for the officer(s) who made the mistake.

Under recourse a services and mistakes will increase. The authorising officer likely had a handful of things to deal with at the time and made a mistake. Who hasn’t put the wrong date on something before, either by amending a template form and not changing it or by simply getting it wrong.

Anything other than a red face would be harsh IMO.

Normally I would agree, however Mark Rowley and his Professional Standards team have been giving central discipline boards for similar errors and lack of following procedure

[Berwickhibby]

Well done to the brave officers arresting the violent criminal with the sword in East London, I hope all injured recover.

[Bostonhibby]

Well done to the brave officers arresting the violent criminal with the sword in East London, I hope all injured recover.Yeah, been following that, brave people for sure. A full armed response solution wouldn't have gone amiss here for the safety of others.

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[Berwickhibby]

Yeah, been following that, brave people for sure. A full armed response solution wouldn't have gone amiss here for the safety of others.

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Unfortunately I disagree, there would be those calling for any officer firing a shot to be charged ….lots of officers handed in their firearms authority due to lack of support or protection.

[Bostonhibby]

Unfortunately I disagree, there would be those calling for any officer firing a shot to be charged ….lots of officers handed in their firearms authority due to lack of support or protection.Sign of the times I guess. In my view there's a time and a place and this could have been one. Thankfully they managed to subdue the guy without but certainly increased the risk to themselves in doing so.

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[Berwickhibby]

13 year old boy murdered in the attack ….2 police officers needing surgery for their wounds

[Colr]

13 year old boy murdered in the attack ….2 police officers needing surgery for their wounds

The swivel-eyed loons in the Daily Mail are taking the chance to blame Sadiq.

Don’t seem to recall the mental health intensive care wards being closed under Tory austerity and the patients transfered to the community.

Notwithstanding that we don’t know the cause of this attack.

[Berwickhibby]

The swivel-eyed loons in the Daily Mail are taking the chance to blame Sadiq.

Don’t seem to recall the mental health intensive care wards being closed under Tory austerity and the patients transfered to the community.

Notwithstanding that we don’t know the cause of this attack.

Don’t read the Daily Mail, and strangely I don’t assume things until I see the evidence and facts. Nobody knows much really except a teenager has been murdered with a man with a sword. The police arrested him courageously without the use of firearms.

[Bostonhibby]

The swivel-eyed loons in the Daily Mail are taking the chance to blame Sadiq.

Don’t seem to recall the mental health intensive care wards being closed under Tory austerity and the patients transfered to the community.

Notwithstanding that we don’t know the cause of this attack.The likes of the Daily Heil is best ignored during tragedies like this, theres every chance there is no political angle to it but that doesn't stop them getting in early.

If they get lucky and there is something they can spin to suit their own vile ends they'll doubtless do it without any shame. Their dwindling band of readers might or might not be comfortable with that.

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[JimBHibees]

Don’t read the Daily Mail, and strangely I don’t assume things until I see the evidence and facts. Nobody knows much really except a teenager has been murdered with a man with a sword. The police arrested him courageously without the use of firearms.

Nobody with a brain should read that rag.

[Keith_M]

Met Police Officer convicted of assault of Bus Passenger 'suspected' of not having a ticket.


"The police watchdog said it found that Lathwood grabbed Agyemang after she told a ticket inspector she was in a hurry when asked to produce her ticket. Body-worn camera footage showed the woman struggling and asking repeatedly for Lathwood to let go of her, before he and another officer handcuffed her.

It was only after her arrest that the officers established she had paid her fare.

The IOPC said Agyemang suffered pain in her wrists, her right arm, which was held by the officer, and shoulder, with bruising being noted by a doctor."


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/17/met-officer-who-manhandled-woman-on-bus-found-guilty-of-assault

[Paul1642]

Met Police Officer convicted of assault of Bus Passenger 'suspected' of not having a ticket.


"The police watchdog said it found that Lathwood grabbed Agyemang after she told a ticket inspector she was in a hurry when asked to produce her ticket. Body-worn camera footage showed the woman struggling and asking repeatedly for Lathwood to let go of her, before he and another officer handcuffed her.

It was only after her arrest that the officers established she had paid her fare.

The IOPC said Agyemang suffered pain in her wrists, her right arm, which was held by the officer, and shoulder, with bruising being noted by a doctor."


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/may/17/met-officer-who-manhandled-woman-on-bus-found-guilty-of-assault

Whilst this incident isn’t great, it sets a dangerous precedent IMO.

When an allegation of a crime is made a Constable can use reasonable force if necessary to arrest someone based on that allegation. Whilst 99 time out of 100 that’s not necessarily for something as minor as a bus ticket offence (which I’m amazed was even a police matter), when a suspect is completely non compliant reasonable force can become necessary.

What this ruling risks is a situation where a Constable detains someone for an offence to ascertain what has happened, suspect doesn’t comply, cop just has to suck it up and let them walk away?

[grunt]

Whilst this incident isn’t great, it sets a dangerous precedent IMO.

When an allegation of a crime is made a Constable can use reasonable force if necessary to arrest someone based on that allegation. Whilst 99 time out of 100 that’s not necessarily for something as minor as a bus ticket offence (which I’m amazed was even a police matter), when a suspect is completely non compliant reasonable force can become necessary.

What this ruling risks is a situation where a Constable detains someone for an offence to ascertain what has happened, suspect doesn’t comply, cop just has to suck it up and let them walk away?
Think you've answered your own question. There's no way this meets any definition of reasonable force, IMO.

[Keith_M]

Think you've answered your own question. There's no way this meets any definition of reasonable force, IMO.


:agree:

[Paul1642]

Think you've answered your own question. There's no way this meets any definition of reasonable force, IMO.

My point was if a crime or alleged crime is deemed minor you still can’t just choose to walk away from police. Get caught pissing in the street by police and you’ll get a telling off or a ticket at worst. Fob of the officer and keep trying to walk away or refuse to provide you details and you may eventually end up being arrested. Resist said arrest and force will be used.

It’s a massive escalation from taking a pee where you should be but the alternative is a society where complying with minor laws is optional.

[easty]

My point was if a crime or alleged crime is deemed minor you still can’t just choose to walk away from police. Get caught pissing in the street by police and you’ll get a telling off or a ticket at worst. Fob of the officer and keep trying to walk away or refuse to provide you details and you may eventually end up being arrested. Resist said arrest and force will be used.

It’s a massive escalation from taking a pee where you should be but the alternative is a society where complying with minor laws is optional.

Few years back on a Saturday night, when it was pissing down, we were running from one bar to the next. Mate at the front got stopped by a passing police car for looking suspicious. Running to get out the rain! I asked what the ****s going on? Was told not to swear again. I said swearing isn’t a crime mate. He told me not to do it again. So I said “****”. Cuffed, put in the car, fined, let out 200m up the road.

Lesson learned I suppose.

[Lendo]

Few years back on a Saturday night, when it was pissing down, we were running from one bar to the next. Mate at the front got stopped by a passing police car for looking suspicious. Running to get out the rain! I asked what the ****s going on? Was told not to swear again. I said swearing isn’t a crime mate. He told me not to do it again. So I said “****”. Cuffed, put in the car, fined, let out 200m up the road.

Lesson learned I suppose.

It's a cliché but the 'worst' crime you can commit is being cheeky to a police officer. It's a big power-trip for them.

[Bristolhibby]

Few years back on a Saturday night, when it was pissing down, we were running from one bar to the next. Mate at the front got stopped by a passing police car for looking suspicious. Running to get out the rain! I asked what the ****s going on? Was told not to swear again. I said swearing isn’t a crime mate. He told me not to do it again. So I said “****”. Cuffed, put in the car, fined, let out 200m up the road.

Lesson learned I suppose.

What were you fined for?

J

[easty]

What were you fined for?

J

Anti-social behaviour or breach of the peace, or something along those lines.

[Hiber-nation]

Anti-social behaviour or breach of the peace, or something along those lines.

Can't believe they're still making folk get in the car then dropping you off somewhere else, although not sure how recent your example was.

They did it to me back in the late 70s for carrying a bottle and "waving it about in a dangerous manner", had a bottle of wine in a Chinese and thought in my youthful stupidity I'd take the empty bottle home to my Mum for a souvenir. Picked me up in Dalry Road on my way home to Currie and dropped me off in Stockbridge. Barstewards.

[Lendo]

I know this isn’t the Met Police but this running over of the calf (twice) is absolutely shocking and needs action. Hate seeming any form of animal abuse but this feels like it’s cruelty for cruelties sake.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c511ezjlmrro

[Keith_M]

Can't believe they're still making folk get in the car then dropping you off somewhere else, although not sure how recent your example was.

They did it to me back in the late 70s for carrying a bottle and "waving it about in a dangerous manner", had a bottle of wine in a Chinese and thought in my youthful stupidity I'd take the empty bottle home to my Mum for a souvenir. Picked me up in Dalry Road on my way home to Currie and dropped me off in Stockbridge. Barstewards.


I got lifted for the first time at a football match when I was seventeen and, when I asked what for, they said it was for 'gesticulating at opposing fans'.

It wasn't until I finally got home and found my Mum's dictionary that I found out what the word 'gesticulating' actually means.

[Bostonhibby]

I know this isn’t the Met Police but this running over of the calf (twice) is absolutely shocking and needs action. Hate seeming any form of animal abuse but this feels like it’s cruelty for cruelties sake.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c511ezjlmrroMaybe the poor animal looked at them the wrong way, or they thought it owned an expensive car not normally associated with that type of farm animal?

Poor decision making by plod on the face of it.

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[lapsedhibee]

I know this isn’t the Met Police but this running over of the calf (twice) is absolutely shocking and needs action. Hate seeming any form of animal abuse but this feels like it’s cruelty for cruelties sake.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c511ezjlmrro

Perhaps the polis was thinking of the damage a runaway calf might do to a child in the town? :dunno:
A few people die of cows every year in the UK.

[Paul1642]

Perhaps the polis was thinking of the damage a runaway calf might do to a child in the town? :dunno:
A few people die of cows every year in the UK.

Now being reported that the cow had already charged at people. The knee Jerk world of social media we now live in is terrible.

[Hibrandenburg]

Seems like Greater Manchester Police are not much better.

[Pretty Boy]

Seems like Greater Manchester Police are not much better.

The footage released yesterday doesn't paint anyone in a good light in this incident.

The police have to be better of course, the guy stamping on the head should still be sacked and face criminal proceedings, but I struggle to have too much sympathy for the 'victim' after watching him throw repeated punches at a woman.

[Stairway 2 7]

The footage released yesterday doesn't paint anyone in a good light in this incident.

The police have to be better of course, the guy stamping on the head should still be sacked and face criminal proceedings, but I struggle to have too much sympathy for the 'victim' after watching him throw repeated punches at a woman.

Then both doing time is the only fair outcome. Police simply shouldn't kick in the head. I do want my Police to be quite strict at the airport though. In America the lad would simply be dead in most of Europe actually you see them armed to the teeth at airports

[Berwickhibby]

Then both doing time is the only fair outcome. Police simply shouldn't kick in the head. I do want my Police to be quite strict at the airport though. In America the lad would simply be dead in most of Europe actually you see them armed to the teeth at airports

I wonder if the female officer whose nose this “victim” broke when he assaulted her feels the same or the others that were assaulted.

[Hibrandenburg]

I wonder if the female officer whose nose this “victim” broke when he assaulted her feels the same or the others that were assaulted.

Please tell me you're not condoning police officers kicking and stamping on offenders heads?

Yes, the guy is a complete prick, but it's not up to the police to dish out beatings as justice for offenses.

[Berwickhibby]

Please tell me you're not condoning police officers kicking and stamping on offenders heads?

Yes, the guy is a complete prick, but it's not up to the police to dish out beatings as justice for offenses.

He did not dish out a beating he used his feet to restrain whilst holding on to his firearm, yes I condone and support this officer 100% another armchair judge who has obviously never had to deal with violent thugs whilst adrenaline is running.

[Pretty Boy]

He did not dish out a beating he used his feet to restrain whilst holding on to his firearm, yes I condone and support this officer 100% another armchair judge who has obviously never had to deal with violent thugs whilst adrenaline is running.

I've got no sympathy for the guy who was kicked but 'restrained with his feet' is just bollocks.

The guy had been tasered and the officer took a kick at and stamped the unprotected head of a man who was already incapacitated and being restrained.

Should we not expect better from our service personnel than violent outbursts because the adrenaline is flowing? Is that not what training and discipline is all about?

[Berwickhibby]

I've got no sympathy for the guy who was kicked but 'restrained with his feet' is just bollocks.

The guy had been tasered and the officer took a kick at and stamped the unprotected head of a man who was already incapacitated and being restrained.

Should we not expect better from our service personnel than violent outbursts because the adrenaline is flowing? Is that not what training and discipline is all about?

His hands were free and fire arms training is to use your feet …… I again support this officers actions

[DaveF]

His hands were free and fire arms training is to use your feet …… I again support this officers actions

I've never been tasered but I'm going to assume you are pretty much incapacitated and therefore pose little threat. Hands free or not.

A few of those ********s need jail time after seeing that video. Along with the officer. He's lucky he hasn't killed the guy with the kick to the head.

[Berwickhibby]

I've never been tasered but I'm going to assume you are pretty much incapacitated and therefore pose little threat. Hands free or not.

A few of those ********s need jail time after seeing that video. Along with the officer. He's lucky he hasn't killed the guy with the kick to the head.

Tasers are only 80% effective…. As you said have never been tasered they don’t always work. The officers deserve a commendation for their actions.

[Keith_M]

The footage released yesterday doesn't paint anyone in a good light in this incident. The police have to be better of course, the guy stamping on the head should still be sacked and face criminal proceedings, but I struggle to have too much sympathy for the 'victim' after watching him throw repeated punches at a woman. :agree:

I'm not defending the policeman in any way but this was nowhere near as simple an incident as certain media outlets made out.

[Callum_62]

He did not dish out a beating he used his feet to restrain whilst holding on to his firearm, yes I condone and support this officer 100% another armchair judge who has obviously never had to deal with violent thugs whilst adrenaline is running.Haha. You're an ex cop right?

Restrained with his feet? The boy was prone on the ground after being tasered, barely moving - booted in the face then stamped on his head- it's not restrained it's a blatant overuse of force

I have no sympathy for the folk that were arrested and if they were injured during the melee fine

Our police force need to be better than that though and simply the guy lost the plot unfortunately for him he's been caught doing it

A commendation for their actions - get real

The last 4 or 5 seconds of this video shows he went way too far - that's just before he stamped on his head

https://x.com/Mattisamazing33/status/1817243874948984862?t=XTUXbEmDnZhIuBWevcSVgw&s=19

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[DaveF]

I see Aamer Anwer has got himself involved. I'm sure he will be keen to gloss over the numerous assaults that the 'victim' committed.

Just as there is no justification for the kick to the head, the guy assaulting the police officers needs to see serious jail time.

[Callum_62]

:agree:

I'm not defending the policeman in any way but this was nowhere near as simple an incident as certain media outlets made out.I think it is simple - our Police force arnt there to dish out revenge

There job is to subdue and arrest and they had done that

If I was caught on camera doing what the policeman done at the end there I'd quite right be up on some serious charges. - the police (while it's a tough gig) have to be better than what we seen from this officer

The folk that attacked them are obviously wrong and justice will be done with them in sure but kicking someone who's barely moving on the ground in the face and stamping on his head is not befitting of a competent, in control police officer

I think the guy just lost the plot in that moment but it will likely be the end of his police career

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[Scouse Hibee]

Tasers are only 80% effective…. As you said have never been tasered they don’t always work. The officers deserve a commendation for their actions.

The officer deserves prison for his actions, there can be no defence however you want to try and spin it. And yes I have dealt with and restrained many an angry man even those armed with knives. The adrenaline flows but you know there is a line you cannot cross especially when the perpetrator is already subdued.

[McD]

The officer deserves prison for his actions, there can be no defence however you want to try and spin it. And yes I have dealt with and restrained many an angry man even those armed with knives. The adrenaline flows but you know there is a line you cannot cross especially when the perpetrator is already subdued.

Your last 6 words are exactly the point


Surely if the aim was to restrain, you would put a knee on the guys back, not kick to the head then stamp on the head.


Not that I’m condoning what the guy did in the first place, should also be prosecuted

[Hibrandenburg]

He did not dish out a beating he used his feet to restrain whilst holding on to his firearm, yes I condone and support this officer 100% another armchair judge who has obviously never had to deal with violent thugs whilst adrenaline is running.

🤣 Using his feet to restrain. I doubt very much that stomping and kicking people in the head is taught during training.

[superfurryhibby]

The police behaving like thugs. The second guy arms above his head made to lie down and then getting punched to the back of the head, whilst clearly offering no resistance. The female cop pepper spraying whilst under no obvious threat, then pushing the old woman needlessly.

I haven't seen the footage of the first guy, the one who was kicked in the head whilst on the ground, attacking the cops. Based on what I've seen, there will be prosecutions and Police losing their jobs. Deservedly so, wearing a uniform is no excuse for thuggery. The guy who assaulted the police should be made to suffer the consequences in court, no excuses.

Edit: just watched the initial incident. That was shocking. The attacks on the police were awful. Prison beckons. That said, the stamping and unnecessary police violence that followed is still not acceptable.

[H18S NX]

They should all be in the stardey,including the police officer.

[Stairway 2 7]

They should all be in the stardey,including the police officer.

The only fair outcome. Policeman prosecuted for the kick that was shocking and the boys smashing police officers in an airport. They boys had just come from Qatar, they would be in a world of hell if they had done it there. I think people know our Police are rightly a bit toothless. I think in most airports in Europe the boy would be shot after leathering the female officer which isn't good

[Bristolhibby]

The only fair outcome. Policeman prosecuted for the kick that was shocking and the boys smashing police officers in an airport. They boys had just come from Qatar, they would be in a world of hell if they had done it there. I think people know our Police are rightly a bit toothless. I think in most airports in Europe the boy would be shot after leathering the female officer which isn't good

I’m all for leathering them in the act of restraining them. Like when the fight was happening. If the copper panned him and broke his jaw that would legit be proportional.

Kicking in the face and stomping on his head while prone is not proportional. The red mist descended and he wanted to teach him a lesson. Unprofessional and criminal behaviour. If he’s lucky he will just be fired. That would be good enough for me.

Throw the book at the radges who pager with Police at an airport.

J

[Keith_M]

Sadly the initial reporting of this incident suggested a racist motive on the part of the police, which led to various protests.

It's now clear that the incident was triggered by the behaviour of the passengers and that, at this point, there is literally no evidence of racism (regardless of how over-the-top some might view the police reaction)

To me, that's the sad part. As I hinted earlier, certain media outlets already had this done-and-dusted as systemic racism against an apparently innocent Asian passenger.

Yes, I deplore racism... but they should stick to reporting the facts and stop jumping to conclusions to suit an editorial agenda. Triggering protests that could possibly turn violent is one of the possible consequences of unbalanced, premature reporting.

[J-C]

Yes the 2 guys that attacked the police deserve to be in jail but after being tasered, there is no justification to kick him in the head, abuse of power, it's that simple and the officer should be booted out the force and prosecuted. To try and justify the officers actions is simply ridiculous.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes the 2 guys that attacked the police deserve to be in jail but after being tasered, there is no justification to kick him in the head, abuse of power, it's that simple and the officer should be booted out the force and prosecuted. To try and justify the officers actions is simply ridiculous.

Absolutely. The police have lost their discipline and decided they are the ones who should be punishing instead of the courts. That’s not how our system works. He needs sacked and prosecuted.


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[wookie70]

Your last 6 words are exactly the pointSurely if the aim was to restrain, you would put a knee on the guys back, not kick to the head then stamp on the head.Not that I’m condoning what the guy did in the first place, should also be prosecutedReally hard to see any justification for an officer kicking and stomping on a member of the publics head when two tasers were being pointed at close range and he looked like he was completely incapacitated. It would be interesting to hear the way the Police went about the initial arrest. it looked very like it started after an officer hit one of teh suspects on the head. The police then never did a great job fist to fist and at that point I would support their use of tasers. Then teh crazy kick and then screaming at one of the suspects who was sitting on a bench to sit down before very roughly taking him down with lots of force that seemed completely out of keeping with how subdued the guy was at the time. You simply can't give individuals that react like that weapons.Like a few others I agree the two suspects and the officer who kicked and stomped should all be in jail at the moment. The officer should be facing the more serious charge and he should certainly lose his job regardless of the criminal part of the conviction imo.

[silverhibee]

Tasers are only 80% effective…. As you said have never been tasered they don’t always work. The officers deserve a commendation for their actions.

But it was clear to see that the taser had the desired affect as the lad crumbled to the ground and the officer fell on top of him and started to put the cuffs on him, he had now been restrained from doing anything more, it was then that the officer had his kick and stamp when there was no need for it.

[silverhibee]

I see Aamer Anwer has got himself involved. I'm sure he will be keen to gloss over the numerous assaults that the 'victim' committed.

Just as there is no justification for the kick to the head, the guy assaulting the police officers needs to see serious jail time.

Have they even been charged with anything yet, the lads that assaulted the officers.

[Bostonhibby]

But it was clear to see that the taser had the desired affect as the lad crumbled to the ground and the officer fell on top of him and started to put the cuffs on him, he had now been restrained from doing anything more, it was then that the officer had his kick and stamp when there was no need for it.This is where I am on this one, shame the officer gave them something to deflect away from the obvious feeling that society would be a better place if the ****my behaviour that was evident earlier was off the streets and in jail for a decent length of time.

Created undeserveding victims.

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[Ozyhibby]

I see Aamer Anwer has got himself involved. I'm sure he will be keen to gloss over the numerous assaults that the 'victim' committed.

Just as there is no justification for the kick to the head, the guy assaulting the police officers needs to see serious jail time.

Guys like Aamer Anwer are important for our democracy. He’s a very good lawyer not afraid to take on the state when it oversteps the mark.


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[Berwickhibby]

Guys like Aamer Anwer are important for our democracy. He’s a very good lawyer not afraid to take on the state when it oversteps the mark.


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Strange I see him as a gold digging grifter constantly trying to cause trouble

[Ozyhibby]

Strange I see him as a gold digging grifter constantly trying to cause trouble

What has he done wrong?


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[Moulin Yarns]

What has he done wrong?


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Fought for justice. 😉

[Ozyhibby]

Fought for justice. [emoji6]

Ah, you can see why certain people may not like that.[emoji106]


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[Hibrandenburg]

What has he done wrong?


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He's mistaken foot restraint for stomping and kicking someone in the head.

[silverhibee]

And not forgetting the illegal search that was done by one of the armed officers trying to get phones, yes the adrenaline was flowing but you just can’t search folk without reason, he just stuck his hands in the guys pockets and pulled stuff out, these were the guys that were videoing the incident.

[Berwickhibby]

Justice for Martyn Blake …Not Guilty

[Paul1642]

Justice for Martyn Blake …Not Guilty

Can’t believe it ever made it to this stage.

[Bristolhibby]

Can’t believe it ever made it to this stage.

Been looking at the videos and the reporting. Looked like the officer was in a case of shoot or get run over by the Audi that was trying to ram its way out of a trap sprung by the police.
No idea what the driver was doing, surrounded by heavily armed Police.

Was reading he now finds out if he will face IPCC disciplinary. Seems crazy.

J

[Paul1642]

Been looking at the videos and the reporting. Looked like the officer was in a case of shoot or get run over by the Audi that was trying to ram its way out of a trap sprung by the police.
No idea what the driver was doing, surrounded by heavily armed Police.

Was reading he now finds out if he will face IPCC disciplinary. Seems crazy.

J

Having seen dash cam footage I can’t understand how a murder charge was ever even libelled.

As for your last sentence, I’d imagine that it’s simply a matter of of procedure. Would be very hard to justify after a court found no wrongdoing and the outrage from Met cops would be huge.

[Bristolhibby]

Sounds like the deceased was an absolute pice of work. I feel London is a safer place without him.

The judge kept this away from the jury and press before the verdict.

Wonder if the copper will have to leave London, or move house?

https://news.sky.com/story/chris-kaba-was-core-member-of-gang-and-gunman-in-nightclub-shooting-days-before-he-was-killed-by-police-13234555

[Berwickhibby]

Sounds like the deceased was an absolute pice of work. I feel London is a safer place without him.

The judge kept this away from the jury and press before the verdict.

Wonder if the copper will have to leave London, or move house?

https://news.sky.com/story/chris-kaba-was-core-member-of-gang-and-gunman-in-nightclub-shooting-days-before-he-was-killed-by-police-13234555

But but …that cannot be true 🙄 his family said he was a good guy and would not harm a fly

[Hibrandenburg]

But but …that cannot be true 🙄 his family said he was a good guy and would not harm a fly

Surprised he was still free to walk the streets at the time he was shot. Still, I guess the tax payer have been saved a small fortune.

[Scouse Hibee]

Sounds like the deceased was an absolute pice of work. I feel London is a safer place without him.

The judge kept this away from the jury and press before the verdict.

Wonder if the copper will have to leave London, or move house?

https://news.sky.com/story/chris-kaba-was-core-member-of-gang-and-gunman-in-nightclub-shooting-days-before-he-was-killed-by-police-13234555

Just as well the cop was found not guilty, I can understand stuff like that being kept from the jury if it was about the accused (fair trial and all that) but not in this case.

[Bostonhibby]

Having seen dash cam footage I can’t understand how a murder charge was ever even libelled.

As for your last sentence, I’d imagine that it’s simply a matter of of procedure. Would be very hard to justify after a court found no wrongdoing and the outrage from Met cops would be huge.

Looking at a report about this this morning and also the video images I've got no problem backing the officers conduct. In the agony of the moment he took the decision to prevent someone else being injured or worse.



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[Jim44]

The police, quite rightly and deservedly, get a lot of bad press due to the behaviour of some of its employees. This often, as in this case, causes the public to wrongly doubt the actions of police officers. The family opinion of the criminal victim in this case, says as much about them as it does about the deceased.

[Hibrandenburg]

The family of the deceased's interview last night done the drive for racial equality no favours. Depicting this as a racially motivated execution of an innocent black guy and the contradicting evidence will only throw shadows over real racist incidents.

[Jim44]

The family’s accusations and their insistence that the violent, criminal victim was an innocent party of good character and racially killed by the police, to my mind displays their racial prejudice.

[wookie70]

Been looking at the videos and the reporting. Looked like the officer was in a case of shoot or get run over by the Audi that was trying to ram its way out of a trap sprung by the police.
No idea what the driver was doing, surrounded by heavily armed Police.

Was reading he now finds out if he will face IPCC disciplinary. Seems crazy.

J

The car was not moving forward when the guy was shot. The officer placed himself in that position having ran round from pointing the gun at the suspect(he had no idea at that point who he was by the way just that the vehicle was involved in an armed incident previously). It is a tough one for me. The suspect was unarmed but was definitely looking like he would be a danger to the public. I would think given there was ample time to shoot all the tyres that would have been an option. If he had stayed where he was he had a close and clear shot to the guys leg that would likely have stopped him moving. However that was a situation where officers rightly had cause to think the driver may have a firearm, it happened quickly and most importantly the case came before the courts and the public through a jury have cleared the officer so he is innocent of the crime. I would like to see the Met look at the way they would deal with this in an ideal world but for once I can actually sympathise with them as this was a high octane and potentially life threatening situation for the officers. I do wonder if the violent approach is the correct opening gambit. That would put the fear of death into me and my reaction may be to hit the gas and escape the gun in my face. Is the re proof that this approach is helpful.

[Stairway 2 7]

Seen a few people online say shoot the tires, that isn't stopping a car that is repeatedly ramming backwards and forwards also how long does it take. Having watched the video the nutter wasn't caring if he mowed down a police officer. He did have a weapon it weighed 3 ton. If he stopped he'd be alive but instead he went back and forwards barging the police, it was lucky an officer wasn't killed.

[Itsnoteasy]

The car was not moving forward when the guy was shot. The officer placed himself in that position having ran round from pointing the gun at the suspect(he had no idea at that point who he was by the way just that the vehicle was involved in an armed incident previously). It is a tough one for me. The suspect was unarmed but was definitely looking like he would be a danger to the public. I would think given there was ample time to shoot all the tyres that would have been an option. If he had stayed where he was he had a close and clear shot to the guys leg that would likely have stopped him moving. However that was a situation where officers rightly had cause to think the driver may have a firearm, it happened quickly and most importantly the case came before the courts and the public through a jury have cleared the officer so he is innocent of the crime. I would like to see the Met look at the way they would deal with this in an ideal world but for once I can actually sympathise with them as this was a high octane and potentially life threatening situation for the officers. I do wonder if the violent approach is the correct opening gambit. That would put the fear of death into me and my reaction may be to hit the gas and escape the gun in my face. Is the re proof that this approach is helpful.

The guy was a bampot & was linked to one of the most feared gangs in London. Only a few days previous to his death he had shot a guy outside a nightclub. The car he was driving was linked to another shooting. Good riddance.

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn’t sound like much has went wrong here. There has been a thorough investigation as there should be anytime a police officer fires a weapon and the right decision has been reached.
All good for me.


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[Paul1642]

Doesn’t sound like much has went wrong here. There has been a thorough investigation as there should be anytime a police officer fires a weapon and the right decision has been reached.
All good for me.


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Other than a cop waiting 2 years with the weight of a potential murder conviction hanging over him for just doing his job, and now reported to have a £10k bounty on his head.

[Bristolhibby]

Other than a cop waiting 2 years with the weight of a potential murder conviction hanging over him for just doing his job, and now reported to have a £10k bounty on his head.

He needs to be looked after and redeployed, re housed and given a new identity if necessary.

J

[Pretty Boy]

I can totally understand why the previous conduct of the man who was killed was kept from the jury. The case should have been judged on it's merits alone and disclosing previous convictions and conducts could have led to claims of creating prejudicial conditions. As it is the jury have decided on the hard facts of this incident alone.

I'm really not sure how it ever made it to court in the first place. With so much of the evidence now in the public domain it seems pretty clear the officer had reasonable grounds to fear for his own and wider public safety and made a split second decision. It's pretty awful what the officer has had to go through.

I suppose had there been no trial and a Police or even independent enquiry had reached the same conclusion there would have been shouts of 'whitewash'. As traumatic as it has undoubtedly been a jury has reached a verdict based on the information presented with no knowledge of the character of the deceased at the time they made their decision. It's now difficult for anyone to seriously argue there has been a cover up or failure to throughly investigate the officers conduct.

[Paul1642]

I can totally understand why the previous conduct of the man who was killed was kept from the jury. The case should have been judged on it's merits alone and disclosing previous convictions and conducts could have led to claims of creating prejudicial conditions. As it is the jury have decided on the hard facts of this incident alone.

In this instance, yes because it is reported that Sgt Blake did not know the identity of Chris Kaba when he pulled the trigger.

Had Blake known the identity of Kaba then it would absolutely be relevant because knowing what he was capable of would undoubtedly be a factor in the decision to shoot or not to shoot.

[Ozyhibby]

He needs to be looked after and redeployed, re housed and given a new identity if necessary.

J

I doubt it need to go that far. The drug industry is very fluid and they tend to only do what is profitable. Having grudges against law enforcement is almost unheard of. He will already have been replaced.


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[Itsnoteasy]

I doubt it need to go that far. The drug industry is very fluid and they tend to only do what is profitable. Having grudges against law enforcement is almost unheard of. He will already have been replaced.


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Would you take the chance if you were the cop.

[Paul1642]

I doubt it need to go that far. The drug industry is very fluid and they tend to only do what is profitable. Having grudges against law enforcement is almost unheard of. He will already have been replaced.


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10k bounty is a fortune to some, especially to someone who happens to owe a 10k drug debt to the same gang and the consequences that debt entails for them.

[wookie70]

The guy was a bampot & was linked to one of the most feared gangs in London. Only a few days previous to his death he had shot a guy outside a nightclub. The car he was driving was linked to another shooting. Good riddance. His previous never had a bearing on the case though and the officer that shot him didn't know who was driving. I get why you would say good riddance but do you think it will make the overall situation better. Bringing him to justice would have been a far better outcome imo.

[jamie_1875]

His previous never had a bearing on the case though and the officer that shot him didn't know who was driving. I get why you would say good riddance but do you think it will make the overall situation better. Bringing him to justice would have been a far better outcome imo.

They were trying to bring his to justice weren't they? He then decided to try and run them over with a vehicle. Wasn't that long ago a policeman was killed by being run over and killed and dragged for 1 mile by the car.

[Itsnoteasy]

His previous never had a bearing on the case though and the officer that shot him didn't know who was driving. I get why you would say good riddance but do you think it will make the overall situation better. Bringing him to justice would have been a far better outcome imo.

To allow him to run the show from behind bars. No I stand by what I said.

Bringing guys like Saville & Fayed to justice would have been a far better outcome. At least behind bars these guys wouldn't have had much if any influence

[Berwickhibby]

Pleasing to see Martyn Blake has been promoted to Inspector

[AltheHibby]

They were trying to bring his to justice weren't they? He then decided to try and run them over with a vehicle. Wasn't that long ago a policeman was killed by being run over and killed and dragged for 1 mile by the car.

He was Andrew Harper. See the link below.

https://news.sky.com/story/killed-in-the-line-of-duty-officers-who-gave-their-lives-protecting-the-public-12081059

As ever, could someone please make it work? Thanks.

[Hiber-nation]

He was Andrew Harper. See the link below.

https://news.sky.com/story/killed-in-the-line-of-duty-officers-who-gave-their-lives-protecting-the-public-12081059

As ever, could someone please make it work? Thanks.

.

[AltheHibby]

.

Thanks. 😁

[wookie70]

Pleasing to see Martyn Blake has been promoted to Inspector Not great for optics. No idea how the Police do their recruitment and promotion. What would he have needed to do to get promoted. Is it a tap on the shoulder, recruitment competition or exams etc. Has he been cleared in terms of internal investigation

[Berwickhibby]

Not great for optics. No idea how the Police do their recruitment and promotion. What would he have needed to do to get promoted. Is it a tap on the shoulder, recruitment competition or exams etc. Has he been cleared in terms of internal investigation

He had already passed his Ospre promotion exams and passed his board, this unfounded criminal case added 2 years wait. He was correctly promoted. I imagine the Federation solicitors will get any accusations of breach of regulations thrown out.

[wookie70]

He had already passed his Ospre promotion exams and passed his board, this unfounded criminal case added 2 years wait. He was correctly promoted. I imagine the Federation solicitors will get any accusations of breach of regulations thrown out.

Surely he will have to complete whatever internal investigations are still to take place. Big difference between what he was accused of and whether he and others followed the correct procedure. No idea if they did but I imagine that would have to be satisfied. For what it is worth if he is found to have no case to answer internally he probably should get his pay back-dated

[Berwickhibby]

Surely he will have to complete whatever internal investigations are still to take place. Big difference between what he was accused of and whether he and others followed the correct procedure. No idea if they did but I imagine that would have to be satisfied. For what it is worth if he is found to have no case to answer internally he probably should get his pay back-dated

He won’t get any back dated pay and I am confident that all procedures we carried out within Home Office approved guidelines. Only the useless mouthpieces like Khan and Abbot are still wanting this officer sacked for lawfully doing his duty.

[jamie_1875]

He won’t get any back dated pay and I am confident that all procedures we carried out within Home Office approved guidelines. Only the useless mouthpieces like Khan and Abbot are still wanting this officer sacked for lawfully doing his duty.

We had plenty of MSPs jumping on the virtue signalling train. A few SNP MSPs were wise enough to remove their names but still you think you would wait for some facts to come out. Chris Kaba the poor "aspiring architect"

A motion "Remembering Chris Kaba*

https://www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/votes-and-motions/votes-and-motions-search/S6M-05940

[wookie70]

He won’t get any back dated pay and I am confident that all procedures we carried out within Home Office approved guidelines. Only the useless mouthpieces like Khan and Abbot are still wanting this officer sacked for lawfully doing his duty.


Looks like the IOPC are quite rightly reviewing their position so we have to wait for the final decision in terms of the internal process. Given the statements they have put out I suspect the Jury Verdict will feature heavily in any decisions they make. That seems fair enough if the jury were party to the procedures that should have been followed. https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/iopc-statement-response-panorama-documentary-chris-kaba-shooting

[Berwickhibby]

Looks like the IOPC are quite rightly reviewing their position so we have to wait for the final decision in terms of the internal process. Given the statements they have put out I suspect the Jury Verdict will feature heavily in any decisions they make. That seems fair enough if the jury were party to the procedures that should have been followed. https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/news/iopc-statement-response-panorama-documentary-chris-kaba-shooting

Does this not reek of double jeopardy 🤷*♂️

[wookie70]

Does this not reek of double jeopardy 🤷*♂️

No, two very different things I would imagine. You can be sacked/disciplined at work and not do anything criminal. Now the criminal side is over they should look if procedures were followed, or at least anything not tested in court. Also given a citizen has been killed, lawfully as it turns out, I would imagine they would have to look at ways it could have ended differently. There may not have been a better way to deal with it but surely you would have to looked at what happened, especially as these events are so few and far between

[Berwickhibby]

There will already have been an investigation, by professional standards as there always is, even if a firearm is drawn and not used, its findings are passed to the IOPC who in turn either conclude with the result or conduct more enquiries and either recommend a disciplinary hearing or pass to CPS for criminal charges. IOPC are wanting two bites of the cherry. So taking it down levels, you get accused of stealing at work, there is a criminal case which you are found not guilty, you would find acceptable for the management to sack you after looking at procedures.

[wookie70]

There will already have been an investigation, by professional standards as there always is, even if a firearm is drawn and not used, its findings are passed to the IOPC who in turn either conclude with the result or conduct more enquiries and either recommend a disciplinary hearing or pass to CPS for criminal charges. IOPC are wanting two bites of the cherry. So taking it down levels, you get accused of stealing at work, there is a criminal case which you are found not guilty, you would find acceptable for the management to sack you after looking at procedures.

Depends, you have not stolen any money but you didn't follow procedures and that has meant someone else stole it or the accounts are wildly wrong. Both of those could end up in disciplinary action but not criminal. The way I read it IOPC paused to wait for the court case, that seems right. Now they are having a look taking cognisance of the court case, that also seems right. If he passed his promotion board and is promoted then that sounds right too. The only thing wrong imo is the length of time both the family and the cop had to wait for a case to come to court. When you have such a public interest and it potentially has caused issues within communities these cases should be dealt with quickly

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8dm0y33yrmo

An organisation that really is struggling to clean itself up. At least this appears to be being dealt with.


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[Berwickhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8dm0y33yrmo

An organisation that really is struggling to clean itself up. At least this appears to be being dealt with.


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Rightfully sacked, if it’s not a case you’re involved in, don’t access the data, it’s also stupidity as there is a trail of who accesses confidential information which is disclosed to the court. No sympathy whatsoever

[JimBHibees]

Rightfully sacked, if it’s not a case you’re involved in, don’t access the data, it’s also stupidity as there is a trail of who accesses confidential information which is disclosed to the court. No sympathy whatsoever

You would think ideally they shouldn’t be able to get access if not a case they are involved in.

[Berwickhibby]

You would think ideally they shouldn’t be able to get access if not a case they are involved in.

Historically the police have been criticised for not sharing information about cases, especially with other forces and crimes that could be possibly linked. That is why a username and password must be used, with the department head examining the audit trail. Looking at crimes, intelligence and other cases where your you cannot justify why you searched had always been a disciplinary offence.

[Ozyhibby]

https://bsky.app/profile/lewisgoodall.bsky.social/post/3lb7ozrbvtk2a

Just keeps happening.


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[JimBHibees]

Historically the police have been criticised for not sharing information about cases, especially with other forces and crimes that could be possibly linked. That is why a username and password must be used, with the department head examining the audit trail. Looking at crimes, intelligence and other cases where your you cannot justify why you searched had always been a disciplinary offence.

Makes sense especially as you say importance of an awareness of cross border or county crimes and other forces are able to see if a trend however you would think on particularly sensitive cases there would be some control of information eg limited to particular people or roles.

[Berwickhibby]

Makes sense especially as you say importance of an awareness of cross border or county crimes and other forces are able to see if a trend however you would think on particularly sensitive cases there would be some control of information eg limited to particular people or roles.

It’s a multi force Government computer system.. because it was able to be accessed by other forces other offences committed by Couzins were highlighted. I personally think the system works well especially as the crime manager must check the audit trail.

[Berwickhibby]

https://bsky.app/profile/lewisgoodall.bsky.social/post/3lb7ozrbvtk2a

Just keeps happening.


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If they have committed the offence they get prosecuted…. No sympathy

[grunt]

It’s a multi force Government computer system.. because it was able to be accessed by other forces other offences committed by Couzins were highlighted. I personally think the system works well especially as the crime manager must check the audit trail.
Why do we have multiple police forces in the UK? Why isn't there just the police?

[Ozyhibby]

Why do we have multiple police forces in the UK? Why isn't there just the police?

That would be too powerful and easily manipulated by a would be dictator. Decentralising in good. Creation of Police Scotland was a mistake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

Why do we have multiple police forces in the UK? Why isn't there just the police?

Why?… would it be more efficient?

What efficiencies would be made?

I mean….. we have lots of local councils,no-one suggests that we should just have one single authority, that does the job of administering -say- potholes and rubbish collection for every locality in the UK.

Policing stems from contact and co-operation between the community and the police….so having some sense of local accountability and connection has always been considered a good thing.

[grunt]

Why?… would it be more efficient?

What efficiencies would be made?
Well for one thing it would avoid the need for "multi force Government systems". There must surely be inefficiencies in having every force reinvent the wheel about how their information systems should be configured?

[grunt]

I mean….. we have lots of local councils,no-one suggests that we should just have one single authority, that does the job of administering -say- potholes and rubbish collection for every locality in the UK.
I may be wrong - always a strong possibility - but don't all Councils use the same Council Tax system?

[Berwickhibby]

I may be wrong - always a strong possibility - but don't all Councils use the same Council Tax system?

Use the same system for raising bills …but budgets are spent more on local requirements not national.

[grunt]

Why?… would it be more efficient?
It seems that the media is watching .Net for stories to run ... :wink:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/18/police-chief-calls-for-biggest-shake-up-of-england-and-wales-policing-since-1960s


Police are “wasting valuable time and money by doing things in 43 different ways”, with huge and urgent reform needed to end a postcode lottery for victims, the leader of Britain’s police chiefs has said.

[Berwickhibby]

It seems that the media is watching .Net for stories to run ... :wink:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/18/police-chief-calls-for-biggest-shake-up-of-england-and-wales-policing-since-1960s

The only example of police centralisation in Uk, is police Scotland, which in my opinion has been disastrous.

[grunt]

The only example of police centralisation in Uk, is police Scotland, which in my opinion has been disastrous.
Clearly there's no need to address ANY of the points made in the article. Your opinion trumps everything.

[Berwickhibby]

Clearly there's no need to address ANY of the points made in the article. Your opinion trumps everything.

It’s my opinion and this forum allows members to voice their opinions, I speak with experience of the Police, where I saw experience, local knowledge and community engagement be replaced by managers straight from University, with little empathy for victims. The original principles of the police was to protect the public from crime and disorder. There was standards of education, dress and behaviour. I don’t see that today.

[AltheHibby]

The only example of police centralisation in Uk, is police Scotland, which in my opinion has been disastrous.

I'm with you on that. In Wales we have 4 forces. My local one, South Wales, wouldn't have a clue what to do in Gwent's area

[grunt]

I'm with you on that. In Wales we have 4 forces. My local one, South Wales, wouldn't have a clue what to do in Gwent's area
That's really not the point though, is it? It's about having 4 admin systems to look after the same types of staff, 4 procurement teams to obtain 4 different sets of tools and equipment which should be standard across the board. I'm sure there are many examples of costs duplicated across the 4 forces.

[grunt]

It’s my opinion and this forum allows members to voice their opinions, I speak with experience of the Police, where I saw experience, local knowledge and community engagement be replaced by managers straight from University, with little empathy for victims. The original principles of the police was to protect the public from crime and disorder. There was standards of education, dress and behaviour. I don’t see that today.
It seems a bit of a stretch to suggest that falling standards are the result of force consolidation, but maybe you have evidence of the link between the two. As I said before, did you read the article and do you have any comment whatsoever on the issues raised in it? I'm not suggesting that you're not allowed to voice your opinion - that's a pretty strange conclusion for someone with experience of the police to come to? But I am interested in how your opinion differs from the Chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council. Are you saying his opinion is worthless?

[AltheHibby]

That's really not the point though, is it? It's about having 4 admin systems to look after the same types of staff, 4 procurement teams to obtain 4 different sets of tools and equipment which should be standard across the board. I'm sure there are many examples of costs duplicated across the 4 forces.

They have joint procurement and operations teams.

[grunt]

they have joint procurement and operations teams.qed.

[Keith_M]

The only example of police centralisation in Uk, is police Scotland, which in my opinion has been disastrous.


Tend to agree.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://bsky.app/profile/lewisgoodall.bsky.social/post/3lb7ozrbvtk2a

Just keeps happening.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What did it say? Page not found for me.

[Berwickhibby]

It seems a bit of a stretch to suggest that falling standards are the result of force consolidation, but maybe you have evidence of the link between the two. As I said before, did you read the article and do you have any comment whatsoever on the issues raised in it? I'm not suggesting that you're not allowed to voice your opinion - that's a pretty strange conclusion for someone with experience of the police to come to? But I am interested in how your opinion differs from the Chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council. Are you saying his opinion is worthless?

Falling standards have been happening for years, this has been implemented by Government, with cuts and changing priorities. Including consolidation.( Remember if forces consolidate they will lose the VAT exemption on purchasing) Education standard on entry dropped, vetting of applicants reduced to a minimum, height reduction. People joining at the rank of inspector who have never dealt with an angry cat. I don’t agree with the decision by chief of National chief who is probably trying to get a gong for this new scheme.

Imho I think officers should get out of vehicles and from behind computer screens, look like police officers not some semi military militia. Learn the skill of talking to the public, find out who your community leaders are both official and unofficial. Be an available and approachable.

I don’t think change for change’s sake is beneficial to either the public or the police.

[grunt]

Remember if forces consolidate they will lose the VAT exemption on purchasing
Why would that be?

[grunt]

I don’t think change for change’s sake is beneficial to either the public or the police.
I notice there's still no comment on the arguments put forward by the Chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council.

[Berwickhibby]

Why would that be?

Because it’s in statute…police Scotland lost its vat exemption

[Berwickhibby]

I notice there's still no comment on the arguments put forward by the Chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council.

Because I don’t believe they are doing things 43 different ways …crime reports, investigations, statements, case papers, RTC reports, arrests, sudden deaths, summons, searches, warrants etc are all completed the same throughout England and Wales.

[grunt]

Because it’s in statute…police Scotland lost its vat exemptionThanks. Not perhaps the most helpful explanation, but it made me look it up. Seems to be another stick with which the Lying Tories beat Scotland. A failure of democracy that rearranging how you manage your emergency services should result in a change to the way that VAT is managed.

[Berwickhibby]

Thanks. Not perhaps the most helpful explanation, but it made me look it up. Seems to be another stick with which the Lying Tories beat Scotland. A failure of democracy that rearranging how you manage your emergency services should result in a change to the way that VAT is managed.

Only explanation I could give, I only know when Northumbria, Durham and Cleveland constabulary’s considered amalgamating in the 00’s one of main reasons it did not go ahead was the removal of VAT exemption on purchases.

[grunt]

Only explanation I could give, I only know when Northumbria, Durham and Cleveland constabulary’s considered amalgamating in the 00’s one of main reasons it did not go ahead was the removal of VAT exemption on purchases.I understand you, and I think we're in the dark together on this. Quite why three individual forces get VAT exemption but three combined don't, doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

[AltheHibby]

Thanks. Not perhaps the most helpful explanation, but it made me look it up. Seems to be another stick with which the Lying Tories beat Scotland. A failure of democracy that rearranging how you manage your emergency services should result in a change to the way that VAT is managed.

Not a failure of democracy. Its as simple as local government can reclaim VAT, but central Government can't. When PS became a central Government organisation it could no longer reclaim VAT.

[grunt]

Not a failure of democracy. Its as simple as local government can reclaim VAT, but central Government can't. When PS became a central Government organisation it could no longer reclaim VAT.
I fail to see the logic. It's still a police force, just configured differently. Some posters seem to be remarkably calm about this, "it's just the way it is". I want to know why is it like that, it makes no sense?

[CropleyWasGod]

I fail to see the logic. It's still a police force, just configured differently. Some posters seem to be remarkably calm about this, "it's just the way it is". I want to know why is it like that, it makes no sense?

There's little logic in VAT legislation, to be fair.

Local government can claim back VAT from central government, which makes sense. Central government can't claim back VAT from itself; that would be merely moving money around.

That's the closest to logic I can get.

FTR, the SG were told about that before the merging of the Police and Fire Services. It wasn't a surprise.

[Andy Bee]

IIRC it was scrapped in 2017 anyway, they still owe us 175m quid though.

[CropleyWasGod]

IIRC it was scrapped in 2017 anyway, they still owe us 175m quid though.

Did that actually happen, though? I can see reference to it being Philip Hammond's plan (in 2017) to allow them to reclaim, but can't see anything after that.

I may be looking in the wrong place. :cb

[Andy Bee]

Did that actually happen, though? I can see reference to it being Philip Hammond's plan (in 2017) to allow them to reclaim, but can't see anything after that.

I may be looking in the wrong place. :cb

I see what you mean, every post is pre 17 lol even the Google AI. Deffo scrapped though.


https://www.scotsman.com/regions/uk-government-short-changing-scotlands-emergency-services-snp-claims-102028

[CropleyWasGod]

I see what you mean, every post is pre 17 lol even the Google AI. Deffo scrapped though.


https://www.scotsman.com/regions/uk-government-short-changing-scotlands-emergency-services-snp-claims-102028

Ta.

We can probably ignore or delete a lot of the posts over the past day or so then :greengrin

[grunt]

We can probably ignore or delete a lot of the posts over the past day or so then :greengrinWut??!!

[CropleyWasGod]

Wut??!!

The VAT issue is a red herring.*


*Herring, of any colour, doesn't attract VAT (unless your name is Richard)

[Berwickhibby]

Pleasing to see that both brothers who assaulted police at Manchester airport have been charged and the police officers involved have been investigated and cleared with no charges brought against them. Justice

[Moulin Yarns]

Thugs will be thugs, even when in uniform....



BBC Verify's analysis of five social media videos of the fight included one video, which appeared to show the officer who stamped on the man's head then approaching another man, stamping on his thigh and hitting him on the back of the head with a Taser.


Two police officers are still under investigation by the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) watchdog after GMP conducted its own inquiry.
One officer had been suspended

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c627e37v21eo

[Berwickhibby]

Thugs will be thugs, even when in uniform....






https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c627e37v21eo

Spoken like an idiot who has probably never had to deal with an angry cat let alone a full on assault … having been attacked myself I then must be thug for defending myself .