B Teams in new Scottish 'Conference' 5th Tier

[foxy]

EXCLUSIVE: Premiership clubs to fund a new 'Conference' fifth tier


Stephen McGowan

MARCH 9, 2023


PLANS for a new ten-team Scottish Conference would see four Premiership B teams join six clubs from the Highland and Lowland Leagues from season 2024-25.
Established as a separate company, distinct from the SPFL, the league would become Scottish football’s new fifth tier.
It would be funded by four Premiership entrants — expected to be Aberdeen, Celtic, Hearts and Rangers — and could even be brought in for the start of next season.
At the moment, Celtic, Hearts and Rangers currently field colts teams in the Lowland League, the existing fifth tier of the Scottish football pyramid.
With Lowland League sides divided over extending the invitations for another season, however, the Premiership trio asked the SFA and SPFL to come up with viable alternatives for the campaign after next.
A meeting on Tuesday of Scottish football’s Pyramid Working Group came up with three options, to which clubs are to respond by the end of next week. With the primary aim being to offer players between the ages of 17 and 21 a competitive pathway to first-team football, the first option is an SPFL League Three of ten teams, with top-flight B teams eligible for promotion up to — but not beyond — League One.
Young guns: Celtic and Rangers are looking for new ways to challenge their B-squad playersThe second is an expansion of League Two from ten teams to 16 — incorporating B teams, plus teams from the Lowland and Highland Leagues. Once again, the Premiership colts would only be permitted to go as far as League One. With both options unlikely to reach the necessary threshold of 75-per-cent support amongst the 42 senior clubs, the third option of a new Scottish Conference with no promotion for the B teams has emerged as the only show in town.

Armed with its own prize-money distribution model, the Conference would seek to exploit commercial rights and have no financial impact on the 38 other teams who currently make up the SPFL.
Crucially, it would also bypass the need for 75-per-cent support across all four divisions by maintaining independence from the current league set-up.
Sportsmail understands the Conference idea will command significant support amongst clubs in Leagues One and Two by offering a ‘soft landing’ to any outfit relegated from the senior leagues.
In recent seasons, Brechin City and Cowdenbeath have suffered a significant loss of revenue after dropping through the trap door of the SPFL.
A Conference league funded by the six-figure entry fees of Premiership B teams would preserve their income stream and offer prize money to ambitious sides from the Lowland and Highland Leagues not available in the existing set-up.
While the Conference would require no formal vote of support by clubs, Sportsmail understands the idea will only proceed if it carries ‘overwhelming support’ from clubs.
Earmarked for the season after next, the plan could be fast-tracked for next season if Celtic, Hearts and Rangers Colts teams have nowhere else to play. Lowland League clubs will discuss their stance on the proposals at a meeting on Monday night.

[McSwanky]

Stupid idea. Yet another national league at what should be a regional level. Colts teams I'm not that fussed about, they just need to be run as separate entities and start at the lowest level and work their way up like everyone else.

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[Dobosz83]

Pretty incredible that in order to "progress" Scottish Football, this proposal effectively relegates every team from the Lowland League/Highland League, East of Scotland and West of Scotland down a tier to create a shiny new league as the gateway into the SPFL League Two. Some of the junior sides must be feeling seriously mugged off at this point.

The people running the game here pander to two clubs who have relentlessly pursued this Colt crap for years. They' literally bought their way into the Lowland League (for one season only, but this is already season number 2) and Hearts joined them (currently 14th in the table). There is a thread on here about what Scottish football does next given the 'Old Firm' pulling miles ahead... the solution, trash the lower leagues so that Old Firm Mum's and Dad's can watch their kids attempt to "make it".

Scottish Football will always find a way to boot itself in the head.

[stuart-farquhar]

So the big 4 in Scotland unite on this. Interesting.

[DIXIHIBS]

So the big 4 in Scotland unite on this. Interesting.

No...hibs aren't mentioned..

[Since452]

So the big 4 in Scotland unite on this. Interesting.

It mentioned Aberdeen not Hibs

[cocteautwin]

Hearts are helping fund this? Fair enough. Those idiots at Tynecastle have already spent £40m+ of fans and Anderson’s extra money for a couple of 3rd places and no trophies. Keep spending ya Jambo clowns.


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[CapitalGreen]

and they’ll hoover up all the best talent from other teams too in order to fill their squads, very progressive for Scottish football.

[Stairway 2 7]

Hearts are helping fund this? Fair enough. Those idiots at Tynecastle have already spent £40m+ of fans and Anderson’s extra money for a couple of 3rd places and no trophies. Keep spending ya Jambo clowns.


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Will you say the same if they continue to keep getting 3rd place and European group football

[Booker5time]

What a crap idea this is, can't they see b teams are not wanted or needed

Imgine being a follow of lower league team and having to watch you team play most of there games against B teams!

[wallpaperman]

Absolutely shocking idea, to appease mostly the big two, plus the wannabes like the Hearts. I would say this regardless of whether Hibs are involved or not it’s a terrible idea.

No thought given to the hard working teams trying to work their way up the pyramid.

Imagine being one of the 4 ‘real teams’ in a league with a majority of B teams, ridiculous, but that’s the reality of football in parochial Scotland.

[LancsHibs]

So how will promotion to League 2 work if the top teams in the ‘conference’ are SPL colt teams??

[Coach Jon]

So how will promotion to League 2 work if the top teams in the ‘conference’ are SPL colt teams??

Same as it does just now from the LL, highest placed non-SPL Colt team will go forward for chance of promotion.

[Glory Lurker]

I'm late to the party on this.

What a brutal idea. Scottish football is already almost stagnant without adding more insulation for the gruesome twosome and failing clubs at the bottom. This would be a slap in the face for all but four clubs in the current fifth tier and down. All just another reason for those who worry about the health of our national game to ask "where's the point?"

I wouldn't want a Hibs B team anywhere near this and definitely wouldn't support them in this structure. The OF, Aberdeen and that lot who don't do shame should be ashamed of themselves.

[chippy]

I hope Hibs join this, I suspect Ron would have. Otherwise what’s the point of the academy. The pyramid should stop at full time professional clubs.

[The Baldmans Comb]

This seems an absolutely excellent idea as it would give the Hibs colt team very competitive games against the other colt teams of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen as well as balance of playing against the adult teams from the Lowland/Highland league and whoever drops out of league 3.

Hopefully Hibs sign up for this as their own go it alone strategy was well meaning but the English clubs couldn't be bothered.

[hibby rae]

This seems an absolutely excellent idea as it would give the Hibs colt team very competitive games against the other colt teams of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen as well as balance of playing against the adult teams from the Lowland/Highland league and whoever drops out of league 3.

Hopefully Hibs sign up for this as their own go it alone strategy was well meaning but the English clubs couldn't be bothered.

They would get that if those teams just joined the reserve league, plus we can send players out on loan e.g. to Edinburgh where they will be playing a higher standard still, not just against adult teams, but as a part of them (Porteous said this was far better than Colt teams in his development). Plus with the creation of the UEFA Youth League there are extra competitive fixtures against the best Europe has to offer at that level.

As an extra, I doubt many Hibs fans bother going to watch Hibs when they feature in the Challenge Cup, I've certainly never cared for it, and I doubt we'd see an increase in attendances for league games either. So other proper clubs aren't going to benefit from increased gate money

[Hibs4185]

I hope Hibs join this, I suspect Ron would have. Otherwise what’s the point of the academy. The pyramid should stop at full time professional clubs.

Hallelujah! A supporter of this. Spain implemented it and its working not too badly for the Spanish.

Can’t see any downside. Hope Hibs join soon

[cameronw-hfc]

They would get that if those teams just joined the reserve league, plus we can send players out on loan e.g. to Edinburgh where they will be playing a higher standard still, not just against adult teams, but as a part of them (Porteous said this was far better than Colt teams in his development). Plus with the creation of the UEFA Youth League there are extra competitive fixtures against the best Europe has to offer at that level.

As an extra, I doubt many Hibs fans bother going to watch Hibs when they feature in the Challenge Cup, I've certainly never cared for it, and I doubt we'd see an increase in attendances for league games either. So other proper clubs aren't going to benefit from increased gate money


Not sure there will be many Edinburgh loans anymore. Not nearly as many anyway.

[wallpaperman]

Hallelujah! A supporter of this. Spain implemented it and its working not too badly for the Spanish.

Can’t see any downside. Hope Hibs join soon

Apart from the clubs from smaller towns and communities that are trying to get up the leagues, and would now have further hurdles to clear to achieve their dreams. God, I hope we as a club never become as arrogant and self centred as the bigot brothers and their little wannabe hanger on from Gorgie.

[O'Rourke3]

If its proposed by the cheeks then it's all about them regardless of what the prize, promises and outcome looks like. Their entire purpose is to increase the gap, not close it.

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[Waxy]

Just taking away league places for proper clubs.
Really bad idea for a country our size.
Its all about the old firm.

[chippy]

Just taking away league places for proper clubs.
Really bad idea for a country our size.
It’s all about the old firm.
Pyramid should stop at full time professional clubs. The part timers, semi amateur outfits can have their own pyramid. It’s lazy to just blame this on the old firm. Hearts , Dons involved and I reckon Hibs will get into it too. I’m all for finding a bridge for bright young players to the 1st team. This will in turn help the national team.

[Jones28]

Pyramid should stop at full time professional clubs. The part timers, semi amateur outfits can have their own pyramid. It’s lazy to just blame this on the old firm. Hearts , Dons involved and I reckon Hibs will get into it too. I’m all for finding a bridge for bright young players to the 1st team. This will in turn help the national team.

Not a pyramid then is it?

[Hibs4185]

Pyramid should stop at full time professional clubs. The part timers, semi amateur outfits can have their own pyramid. It’s lazy to just blame this on the old firm. Hearts , Dons involved and I reckon Hibs will get into it too. I’m all for finding a bridge for bright young players to the 1st team. This will in turn help the national team.

Exactly. Who are our youths players playing against at the moment? Other youngsters.

This way, they play in meaningful competitions against more senior players.

Yes some clubs may loose out on some places, but it’s to the benefit kr scottish football as a whole and the sport in Scotland.

Just because it’s been implemented by the ugly sisters, everyone jumps on the bandwagon because it’s them.

Spain have B teams in the lower leagues and cup competitions and over the last 10 years their national team haven’t done too badly.

If I was a youngster at Hibs, I’d def be buzzing to be playing in proper leagues and the cups

[Jones28]

Whats so wrong with a reserve team/league?

[Jones28]

Exactly. Who are our youths players playing against at the moment? Other youngsters.

This way, they play in meaningful competitions against more senior players.

Yes some clubs may loose out on some places, but it’s to the benefit kr scottish football as a whole and the sport in Scotland.

Just because it’s been implemented by the ugly sisters, everyone jumps on the bandwagon because it’s them.

Spain have B teams in the lower leagues and cup competitions and over the last 10 years their national team haven’t done too badly.

If I was a youngster at Hibs, I’d def be buzzing to be playing in proper leagues and the cups

How is 4 teams at the top end of the sport trumping the wants of teams in the 5th tier of benefit to the whole sport?

17 year old aspiring professionals playing against part time players who are posties and plumbers is not going to help them develop.

[LancsHibs]

Whats so wrong with a reserve team/league?

Yes imagine having a reserve league where each PL club can play a team of made up of promising youth players, squad players needing a game and players on recovery from injury or any mix of these. A revolutionary idea! Maybe the Cheeks could get together with the Jambo representatives and call a ‘working group’ to discuss this before floating it to the other clubs?

[chippy]

Whats so wrong with a reserve team/league?
It’s basically a youth league , that’s why the top clubs abandoned it

[Hibs4185]

How is 4 teams at the top end of the sport trumping the wants of teams in the 5th tier of benefit to the whole sport?

17 year old aspiring professionals playing against part time players who are posities and plumbers is not going to help them develop.

Because the youngsters who are the future of the sport are playing in meaningful competitors against senior players who are probably more Street wise.

I’d imagine it won’t just be the top 4, it will be any of the clubs that can field B teams. If Hibs don’t get into it, I think we will fall behind the clubs that do it.

Hearts are already ahead of us financially. If their youth sides also begin to stretch ahead then we may be in trouble.

We need to have the best youth system to compete going forward and the B team gives us that.

The B teams shouldn’t be allowed higher than say League 1 so you don’t have Celtic and rangers B team in the championship as their resources would probably allow them to get this high.

[Jones28]

Because the youngsters who are the future of the sport are playing in meaningful competitors against senior players who are probably more Street wise.

I’d imagine it won’t just be the top 4, it will be any of the clubs that can field B teams. If Hibs don’t get into it, I think we will fall behind the clubs that do it.

Hearts are already ahead of us financially. If their youth sides also begin to stretch ahead then we may be in trouble.

We need to have the best youth system to compete going forward and the B team gives us that.

The B teams shouldn’t be allowed higher than say League 1 so you don’t have Celtic and rangers B team in the championship as their resources would probably allow them to get this high.


It might be a physical challenge, but technically? Look at the teams in the Lowland League now. Universities and Part-time teams - no disrespect intended but Celtic and Rangers are currently top of the Lowland league, so is that a challenge for them or a runabout?

Spain is an example of where the b-team system might be working, but the b-teams are playing in the second and third divisions. Are there any part-time teams in the Spanish third tier? I mean we had a part time team running it damn close to getting promoted last season. Just reading the press release and it says teams won't be allowed promotion above league 1, so they're stuck in league 1, playing against mostly part time outfits - Falkirk and Dunfermline are a bit of n anomaly this season.

[chippy]

Exactly. Who are our youths players playing against at the moment? Other youngsters.

This way, they play in meaningful competitions against more senior players.

Yes some clubs may loose out on some places, but it’s to the benefit kr scottish football as a whole and the sport in Scotland.

Just because it’s been implemented by the ugly sisters, everyone jumps on the bandwagon because it’s them.

Spain have B teams in the lower leagues and cup competitions and over the last 10 years their national team haven’t done too badly.

If I was a youngster at Hibs, I’d def be buzzing to be playing in proper leagues and the cups

Good post. It’s to the benefit of the full time professional clubs and all the talented youngsters they have in their academies. I’d expect eventually the B clubs will be able to get up to league 1 level eventually once this has been established.

[King conrad]

It might be a physical challenge, but technically? Look at the teams in the Lowland League now. Universities and Part-time teams - no disrespect intended but Celtic and Rangers are currently top of the Lowland league, so is that a challenge for them or a runabout?

Spain is an example of where the b-team system might be working, but the b-teams are playing in the second and third divisions. Are there any part-time teams in the Spanish third tier? I mean we had a part time team running it damn close to getting promoted last season. Just reading the press release and it says teams won't be allowed promotion above league 1, so they're stuck in league 1, playing against mostly part time outfits - Falkirk and Dunfermline are a bit of n anomaly this season.


Their is still good footballers in these lower leagues and they are better than what people think.
Do you believe the young lads would have it easy against Bonnyrigg Rose as an example? They would find it a difficult game against good experienced players.
The fitness of the full time players should show but they definitely wouldn't find it easy

[hibby rae]

Exactly. Who are our youths players playing against at the moment? Other youngsters.

This way, they play in meaningful competitions against more senior players.

Yes some clubs may loose out on some places, but it’s to the benefit kr scottish football as a whole and the sport in Scotland.

Just because it’s been implemented by the ugly sisters, everyone jumps on the bandwagon because it’s them.

Spain have B teams in the lower leagues and cup competitions and over the last 10 years their national team haven’t done too badly.

If I was a youngster at Hibs, I’d def be buzzing to be playing in proper leagues and the cups

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

Barcelona B was founded in 1970, Real Madrid's since 1930. Yet until the last 15 years Spain were perennial underachievers at international level

[18Craig75]

Simple idea;

Change too flight to a league of 18, play eachother twice. This means the bigger clubs are able to give their young players more first team minutes against the “diddy” teams that get into the top league.

At the same time. Re-introduce the u21’s/reserve league to be played on Tuesday evenings.

[hibby rae]

Because the youngsters who are the future of the sport are playing in meaningful competitors against senior players who are probably more Street wise.

I’d imagine it won’t just be the top 4, it will be any of the clubs that can field B teams. If Hibs don’t get into it, I think we will fall behind the clubs that do it.

Hearts are already ahead of us financially. If their youth sides also begin to stretch ahead then we may be in trouble.

We need to have the best youth system to compete going forward and the B team gives us that.

The B teams shouldn’t be allowed higher than say League 1 so you don’t have Celtic and rangers B team in the championship as their resources would probably allow them to get this high.

They get that by going on loan, plus they get to play alongside senior players too.

And what happens to the UEFA Youth League slot for league winners?

[chippy]

They get that by going on loan, plus they get to play alongside senior players too.

And what happens to the UEFA Youth League slot for league winners?

Yes go on loan and hardly get game time perhaps. Start off in under 18s , if good move to BTeam, if very good go on loan in Championship then it’s our 1st team. I can understand folks like the lower leagues and like to see low local teams do well. That’s great but there really needs to be a huge jump and fan base to get into SPFL and a full time professional set up. I’d have 3 x 16 with B teams in 3rd tier , eventually allowing 4 only into 2nd tier

[hibby rae]

Yes go on loan and hardly get game time perhaps. Start off in under 18s , if good move to BTeam, if very good go on loan in Championship then it’s our 1st team. I can understand folks like the lower leagues and like to see low local teams do well. That’s great but there really needs to be a huge jump and fan base to get into SPFL and a full time professional set up. I’d have 3 x 16 with B teams in 3rd tier , eventually allowing 4 only into 2nd tier

The fan base for Hibs B, those who actually go, will be very small. 266 the last time they played a senior outfit in the Challenge Cup.

If players are good enough they will be able to go on loan to lower leagues and get game time, there's 22 or 23 full time professional teams in Scotland. But a player can go on loan to an Edinburgh, a Dumbarton, and still be full time. Because they'll be training with us too.

The evidence for the establishing B teams in the pyramids is currently either speculatory or subjective. Whereas those who have been good enough to make it went through well-established routes, as I said earlier Ryan Porteous doesn't rate the B team argument.

These routes don't s*** on the other teams in the leagues, the ones who have earned their place through merit, and the ones lower down who have a history and community behind them and aspire to be a part of it.

[Jones28]

Their is still good footballers in these lower leagues and they are better than what people think.
Do you believe the young lads would have it easy against Bonnyrigg Rose as an example? They would find it a difficult game against good experienced players.
The fitness of the full time players should show but they definitely wouldn't find it easy


Good players at that level, competitive and hearts of lions, no question there. Difficult physically yes, is it going to improve them in a technical sense? I don't see how playing against opposition who technically we should be running rings round is going to help them improve.

Again, I'll concede that they will be playing seasoned players and that will give them an experience physically. But they should be a lot fitter and a lot better.

[04Sauzee]

@officialslfl
https://twitter.com/OfficialSLFL/status/1648054806576091147?t=2dwmI2WIzoLOTFmrAjS-Eg&s=19





We can confirm that members have voted in favour of including B teams for season 2023/24.

This vote comes following the Pyramid Review undertaken by the Scottish FA this season

[Waxy]

No wonder people dont watch Scottish football.
SFA bullying the little guys to do the bidding of certain clubs

[Forza Fred]

Only comment I’d make is that Rangers and Celtic aren’t supporting this proposal for the benefit of Scottish football as a whole.

[The Spaceman]

So basically allow the bigger teams the opportunity to monetise more when they poach any potential talent from the smaller teams, consolidating their already significant advantage and help guarantee the status quo? Sweet!

[Glory Lurker]

Love that boy's tweet that if B teams want to be part of it, they should be made to join at the bottom of the pyramid and work their way up. Fully agree with that.

[Rumble de Thump]

East Stirlingshire outline why they voted against 'forced upon' B teams entry for third term (https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/sport/football/lowland-league-east-stirlingshire-outline-why-they-voted-against-forced-upon-b-teams-entry-for-third-term-4108224)

[wookie70]

From a purely Hibs point of view this might be a good way to develop players. It is also a risk allowing the four named teams to take part leaving us out, perhaps permanently. However, for Scottish football it is idiotic. If it is separate then make it separate and don't have an avenue of promotion from it. You could finish 5th and get put into the main leagues which makes it two leagues in the space of one. I can't understand why we don't just have a reserve league limited by age/nationality with 2 or 3 players allowed to be overage to get first team players back to fitness or kept match sharp. Invite all teams to take part across all the leagues and decide on a structure when you see the numbers.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

https://twitter.com/BlackburnUnited/status/1648066725856911360?s=19

And has the league sponsor not the Douglas park guy?

[ScottB]

If we’re going to do B Teams then why trap them in a semi pro league? Is it anything like the standard required? Are Rangers and Celtic using them for talented youngsters or just keeping squad players fit?

If it’s going to be a thing, then any team that wants them should be allowed them and they should be allowed to work their way up the leagues like they do in say Spain.

Or alternatively, bring back a reserve league?

[chippy]

Whats so wrong with a reserve team/league?
Why did it get scrapped initially? Afaik because many clubs just had their youngsters in the reserves

[chippy]

From a purely Hibs point of view this might be a good way to develop players. It is also a risk allowing the four named teams to take part leaving us out, perhaps permanently. However, for Scottish football it is idiotic. If it is separate then make it separate and don't have an avenue of promotion from it. You could finish 5th and get put into the main leagues which makes it two leagues in the space of one. I can't understand why we don't just have a reserve league limited by age/nationality with 2 or 3 players allowed to be overage to get first team players back to fitness or kept match sharp. Invite all teams to take part across all the leagues and decide on a structure when you see the numbers.

Frankly I think this is simply the beginning of this project. Hibs will be stupid not to join. Over time the B teams will be allowed into League 2 , then league 1. It might stop there but I can also foresee League expansion alongside this and the pyramid kicked into touch.

[Nutmegged]

Only comment I’d make is that Rangers and Celtic aren’t supporting this proposal for the benefit of Scottish football as a whole.

The whole concept of B teams in Scottish Football is just to make sure there'll always be a Celtic and Rangers playing here if the time ever comes that they'll be accepted into another league, the SFA will lift the ban on them being promoted and there'll be a version of them in our top flight as well as the original versions in a new League.

Said that in a very matter of fact way there, obviously it's just my opinion but I've believed this.

[Logie Green]

The whole concept of B teams in Scottish Football is just to make sure there'll always be a Celtic and Rangers playing here if the time ever comes that they'll be accepted into another league, the SFA will lift the ban on them being promoted and there'll be a version of them in our top flight as well as the original versions in a new League.

Said that in a very matter of fact way there, obviously it's just my opinion but I've believed this.

Spot on. They’ve got their feet on the ladder so in time they’ll be allowed to be promoted up the divisions. This was the plan Rod Petrie outlined at a fans forum a few years ago. Shameful.

[Since90+2]

The whole concept of B teams in Scottish Football is just to make sure there'll always be a Celtic and Rangers playing here if the time ever comes that they'll be accepted into another league, the SFA will lift the ban on them being promoted and there'll be a version of them in our top flight as well as the original versions in a new League.

Said that in a very matter of fact way there, obviously it's just my opinion but I've believed this.

Would that scenario be allowed? I'm pretty certain that wouldn't be permitted under Uefa rules.

[Waxy]

Is this organisation fit to run the league when they threaten to plop a brand new league between the lowland league and league 2 with four B teams in it.
What is actually going on?