Where does Scottish football go from here?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Nobody is going to pretend that this country hasn't always been dominated by two clubs. But it is now beyond deniable that the situation has almost become terminal. Two clubs that always had a financial advantage have now been so enriched by the money to be earned in Europe that the gap is insurmountable.

For all I lambasted Hibs for our inept performance last night there is simply no denying that the gulf in quality of player was stark, with them being able to bring on 5 subs all of whom would have walked into our team ... and the scary thing is that this is a club who can't lay a glove on Celtic, who are at the point of outstripping even them, never mind the relative paupers who make up the league's cannon fodder.

Never mind sitting hoping that one day they will gravitate to the EPL or some mythical European league. If that was to happen within 20 years kids simply wouldn't be able to resist the difference between a fixture list that says Celtic v Liverpool and Rangers v Arsenal and one that says Hibs v Dundee and Hearts v Motherwell where they can find the match report in the paper after scrolling through 20 pages of English fitba until they come to the page devoted to the Scottish premiership.

But. If the English FA with the support of the majority of clubs decided to create a league that was absolutely designed to allow the cream to rise to the top, then what is to stop a breakaway league in Scotland that excludes two clubs that are so far ahead in resources that season after season it renders our league competition absolutely meaningless .... If a country can create a breakaway league that is designed to enrich its clubs, why can a country not create a breakaway league that is designed to save the actual integrity of it's league competition?

The other night over 8,000 people paid to watch Dunfermline play Falkirk at the top of Division one, not even the Championship, but division one. Their motivation certainly wasn't a chance to play a season in the Championship that would give them a shot at a premier league where they would get the dubious privilege of seeing their clubs pumped by the Glasgow giants on a regular basis.

I'm not blind to the fact that such a move would require courage from the owners, especially the ones latched to the Ugly sisters teat, that has been in short supply in the history of our game and some bloody world class negotiation with UEFA ..... But I'm seriously at the point of thinking unless Scottish football goes down this route the future is as bleak as it has ever been ... If folk need any encouragement that it could work that Dunfermline v Falkirk crowd is surely it.

[Since452]

If we escape from Celtic park with anything less than a 3-0 defeat it'll almost feel like a decent result. The gap is as big as i can ever remember it. i'm at the stage that when we play them it almost feels like an international weekend. A complete write off.

[He's here!]

Nobody is going to pretend that this country has always been dominated by two clubs. But it is now beyond deniable that the situation has almost become terminal. Two clubs that always had a financial advantage have now been so enriched by the money to be earned in Europe that the gap is insurmountable.

For all I lambasted Hibs for our inept performance last night there is simply no denying that the gulf in quality of player was stark, with them being able to bring on 5 subs all of whom would have walked into our team ... and the scary thing is that this is a club who can't lay a glove on Celtic, who are at the point of outstripping even them, never mind the relative paupers who make up the league's cannon fodder.

Never mind sitting hoping that one day they will gravitate to the EPL or some mythical European league. If that was to happen within 20 years kids simply wouldn't be able to resist the difference between a fixture list that says Celtic v Liverpool and Rangers v Arsenal and one that says Hibs v Dundee and Hearts v Motherwell where they can find the match report in the paper after scrolling through 20 pages of English fitba until they come to the page devoted to the Scottish premiership.

But. If the English FA with the support of the majority of clubs decided to create a league that was absolutely designed to allow the cream to rise to the top, then what is to stop a breakaway league in Scotland that excludes two clubs that are so far ahead in resources that season after season it renders our league competition absolutely meaningless .... If a country can create a breakaway league that is designed to enrich its clubs, why can a country not create a breakaway league that is designed to save the actual integrity of it's league competition?

The other night over 8,000 people paid to watch Dunfermline play Falkirk at the top of Division one, not even the Championship, but division one. Their motivation certainly wasn't a chance to play a season in the Championship that would give them a shot at a premier league where they would get the dubious privilege of seeing their clubs pumped by the Glasgow giants on a regular basis.

I'm not blind to the fact that such a move would require courage from the owners, especially the ones latched to the Ugly sisters teat, that has been in short supply in the history of our game and some bloody world class negotiation with UEFA ..... But I'm seriously at the point of thinking unless Scottish football goes down this route the future is as bleak as it has ever been ... If folk need any encouragement that it could work that Dunfermline v Falkirk crowd is surely it.

This gets asked pretty much every time we take a bit of a doing from one of the big two. I've started at least one similar thread myself.

The only way for our league to be competitive is for the only two teams capable of winning it to be removed.

[Green Man]

In the early 2000s, all of the SPL clubs apart from the old firm resigned from the league, but they bottled it and changed their minds.

[GreenGray]

Wage cap, split the gates or something like that.

Won’t happen cause of our silly voting system, which like everything else in our game panders towards two teams.

We had our chance to change that and Aberdeen voted with Celtic. Bizzare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NAE NOOKIE]

This gets asked pretty much every time we take a bit of a doing from one of the big two. I've started at least one similar thread myself.

The only way for our league to be competitive is for the only two teams capable of winning it to be removed.

And that's what I'm talking about mate. Not waiting until their never gonna happen move to the EPL or a European league which will quickly lose it's allure, but the other clubs getting together and simply admitting that enough is enough.

The people who run our game have lost sight of why people go to football, or even the actual point of playing the game. It's nothing short of miraculous that Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen can still manage crowds in excess of 10,000 to watch their teams compete in a league they have had absolutely no chance of winning for near on 40 years with no prospect of that situation changing any time soon, in fact a situation they can see worsening with every passing season. You have to ask just how long that state of affairs can last.

The cups used to be the out, but we are fast approaching the point where you wont just need luck to win one of the cups, you'll need an absolute miracle.

When you think about it even in the pragmatic cut throat world of business where money is king and the Devil takes the hindmost laws exist to prevent the situation Scottish football currently finds itself in. These laws exist to prevent monopolies, they are the reason companies like Microsoft can be ordered by the US government to share innovations with competitors or in extreme cases even break the company into separate constituent parts to prevent it becoming too powerful and absolutely blowing away the competition through financial power.

Nobody needs reminding that the biggest sport in the most capitalist country in the world where they even think universal free healthcare is a commie plot, runs a system specifically designed to prevent teams doing what the Ugly Sisters have been doing in Scotland for over a century.

It's time Scottish football gave this serious attention and if that means an even worse TV deal than we currently have and a reduction in sponsorship in the short term then so be it .... It has to be worth it in exchange for a league that can actually be classed as a competition and not a procession.

[MWHIBBIES]

Wage cap, split the gates or something like that.

Won’t happen cause of our silly voting system, which like everything else in our game panders towards two teams.

We had our chance to change that and Aberdeen voted with Celtic. Bizzare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aberdeen doing that is the single biggest **** bag move in Scottish football history. We'll never get another chance.

[NAE NOOKIE]

In the early 2000s, all of the SPL clubs apart from the old firm resigned from the league, but they bottled it and changed their minds.

It is long past time that was revisited mate .... if only the gutless wonders who own some of our clubs could find their f'ing baws.

[Pretty Boy]

I said it last night.

Celtic and Rangers have improved in the last 2 or 3 years. Rangers significantly so, Celtic less so from the heyday of Rodgers but significantly from the mess of the 2nd Lennon tenure. The rest of us have regressed. The Hibs team that Lennon inherited and then improved in the 17/18 season would wipe the floor with this Hibs team and anyone else of the 'other 10' in the league. The Aberdeen teams throughout the McInness era ditto, the Motherwell side that finished 2nd under McCall and Clarke's Killie as well. I'd take all of those sides at their best to beat anyone in the league outwith Glasgow if they played tomorrow.

The parochial nature of Scottish football, or just football in general, means people don't want to accept it but to close that gap we need multiple teams capable of taking points of Celtic and Rangers. That means Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and potentially Dundee Utd all being good in a single season. How often has that happened? More worryingly how likely is it to happen in the future? The gap is huge now and it's getting bigger. Solutions like salary caps just won't work unless it became a Europe or worldwide initiative. Celtic and Rangers are never going to agree to hamstring themselves and limit their huge spending power.

It's a bit of a depressing spectacle really. Most of us have never really known any different but the last couple of seasons have really highlighted that short of a huge investment or Celtic and Rangers going to play elsewhere no one else is going to even get close to challenging for the league again. It's been almost 40 years since anyone else won the league, who would take a bet on it changing in the next 40 or the 40 after that?

[Trinity Hibee]

The fact that VAR is also allowing them to get away with decisions isn’t helping. If anything that really should have helped swing the game back towards the smaller club even slightly with dubious decisions.

As said above, it is impressive us, Aberdeen and Hearts still get decent crowds. It just shows there is a huge appetite for football and I’m sure that would only increase if there was a more competitive league without those 2. Not sure what the answer is though because nowhere else needs the old firm (not even a euro super league) so I can’t see them going anywhere.

[Iain G]

Build a giant glass dome over Glasgow and let them all play it out until the air runs out while the rest of the teams provide a competitive and entertaining league free of the religious bollocks and hateful fanbase that goes with the evil step sisters.

[The_Exile]

Celtic and Rangers need to leave, this is a waste of their time playing in this league. That would let the rest of us get two leagues of 18 teams where literally anybody could beat anybody else and anybody could win the league and cups. It would be a far superior product to what we've got now and the loss of 4 old firm games for teams per season would be soon made up in people flocking to watch their teams in with a shout of winning the top prize. Even if the shortfall isn't made up, so what? We all cut our cloth accordingly.

[Jones28]

It will not change unless the two uglies get an invite to some super league thing and they leave their colt teams to play in Scotland.

I've come to accept Hibs will not win a league title in my lifetime and the best we can hope for is a trip to Hampden and maybe, just maybe, a cup and if we're really greedy some derby wins.

Scottish football itself has voted itself in to the situation, thanks Aberdeen. It's beyond parody, a bit like British politics. Voters voted their way in to a situation of their own making. They could have gotten out of it but chose not to and left us in a mess.

At least I have a hope that politics will change and attitudes along with it. Scottish football will forever be the playground of the old firm, where sectarianism is ignored by the authorities and cultivated by 2 clubs because it sells strips and tickets. Fuel hatred, stoke the fire and sell the rivalry to the highest bidder, repeat forever.

[AB-Hibee]

Was talking about this last night, most leagues over Europe, are all dominated by 2 clubs, so are we really that different?

[Jones28]

Celtic and Rangers need to leave, this is a waste of their time playing in this league. That would let the rest of us get two leagues of 18 teams where literally anybody could beat anybody else and anybody could win the league and cups. It would be a far superior product to what we've got now and the loss of 4 old firm games for teams per season would be soon made up in people flocking to watch their teams in with a shout of winning the top prize. Even if the shortfall isn't made up, so what? We all cut our cloth accordingly.

Who's going to take them?

If the started at the very bottom of the English pyramid system it would take 19 years or something mad to get to the Premier League. No clubs are going to just "vote" them in to their division at the expense of 2 others.

[The_Exile]

Who's going to take them?

If the started at the very bottom of the English pyramid system it would take 19 years or something mad to get to the Premier League. No clubs are going to just "vote" them in to their division at the expense of 2 others.

Don't care where they go, but you're right, no league in their right mind would want them and their 'baggage' anywhere near them. Cash is king though. We really should've changed the 11-1 system though and I'll never forgive Aberdeen for kiboshing it.

[Pretty Boy]

Don't care where they go, but you're right, no league in their right mind would want them and their 'baggage' anywhere near them. Cash is king though. We really should've changed the 11-1 system though and I'll never forgive Aberdeen for kiboshing it.

What reason did they give for voting with Celtic?

I recall them saying it was something about the proposals didn't go far enough but that seems a total cop out. Change the vote to a 9-3 or whatever and then make the case for it to go further. Don't sink the whole thing.

[foxy]

The 10 other clubs should resign en masse and invite another 10 clubs Dundee, Ayr Utd, Partick, Morton, Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Airdrie, Queen of the South & ICT to create a 1st division of 20 teams playing each other home and away making a total of 38 games with plenty of derbies included.

Maybe split the gate receipts 75%-25% to allow some semblence of competition.

(The other 2 can play each other every week in a Glasgow Cup.)

[NAE NOOKIE]

It will not change unless the two uglies get an invite to some super league thing and they leave their colt teams to play in Scotland.

I've come to accept Hibs will not win a league title in my lifetime and the best we can hope for is a trip to Hampden and maybe, just maybe, a cup and if we're really greedy some derby wins.

Scottish football itself has voted itself in to the situation, thanks Aberdeen. It's beyond parody, a bit like British politics. Voters voted their way in to a situation of their own making. They could have gotten out of it but chose not to and left us in a mess.

At least I have a hope that politics will change and attitudes along with it. Scottish football will forever be the playground of the old firm, where sectarianism is ignored by the authorities and cultivated by 2 clubs because it sells strips and tickets. Fuel hatred, stoke the fire and sell the rivalry to the highest bidder, repeat forever.

Yeh mate, but we're not talking about working within that ridiculous situation, we are talking about revolution here. The clubs are the SPFL and if they decide to leave that body and form a new league system there would be absolutely nothing the Uglies could do about it because the voting system they exploit, like the SPFL, would no longer exist ... they can't make the other clubs play them, no matter how much they might think they can.

[Jones28]

Yeh mate, but we're not talking about working within that ridiculous situation, we are talking about revolution here. The clubs are the SPFL and if they decide to leave that body and form a new league system there would be absolutely nothing the Uglies could do about it because the voting system they exploit, like the SPFL, would no longer exist ... they can't make the other clubs play them, no matter how much they might think they can.

As admirable as that would be - and it would have my support - how many clubs can afford it? Inverness, Dundee United ourselves have all posted significant losses. Then we've got St Johnstone, Livingston and Kilmarnock giving over half their ground or more to these teams when they visit to make a bit of extra cash. FFS there were Rangers fans in the home end last night.

There are clubs that could survive it and clubs that could not. It will not happen. I'd love it to, but too many clubs rely on the TV money and the extra revenue they generate from Old Firm fans.

And then you've got a product that by many standard is fairly mediocre, but is without its "global appeal". Who's buying it?

[DH1875]

Was talking about this last night, most leagues over Europe, are all dominated by 2 clubs, so are we really that different?

No and IF they did leave then us, Aberdeen or hearts would just take their place as top dogs. We would get the money from winning the league, playing in Europe. We would be selling out every home game, probably even increase the capacity a bit. All in all we would generate more income and attract more investment.
While it sucks sometimes being a hibs fan, I can't see how being a killie, St Johnstone, Ross County, morton, Partick thistle or ayr fan is much better. Is rangers and celtic leaving really gonna effect clubs like Clyde, Hamilton and Queen of the South.
If the rangers and celtic leave, Dunfermline and Falkirk aren't suddenly winning the premier league.

[Lago]

The fact that VAR is also allowing them to get away with decisions isn’t helping. If anything that really should have helped swing the game back towards the smaller club even slightly with dubious decisions.

As said above, it is impressive us, Aberdeen and Hearts still get decent crowds. It just shows there is a huge appetite for football and I’m sure that would only increase if there was a more competitive league without those 2. Not sure what the answer is though because nowhere else needs the old firm (not even a euro super league) so I can’t see them going anywhere.
I think the fact that Hibs, Hearts and the Dons get decent crowds is part of the problem, if the crowds in Scottish football started to dwindle, down, down and maybe then the authorities would do something.

[Lancs Harp]

Said this many times on here. Celtic and Rangers playing in England has never been on the agenda and never will be. Its only ever talked about North of the border. England doesnt need them or want them, besides you cant just choose where you want to play, if that was the case i think we should apply to play in Portugal or somewhere nice and warm ;)

[superfurryhibby]

One of the solutions might be if the big clubs decided they don't need Uefa/Fifa anymore and formed a new footballing association outside of the existing authorities. It's long been mooted and huge concessions have been made to prevent it happening. The Uglies would have a part to play in that. Perhaps that could be a stepping stone for them to GTF out of our domestic game?

[CockneyRebel]

It is long past time that was revisited mate .... if only the gutless wonders who own some of our clubs could find their f'ing baws.


:top marks

[Carheenlea]

The Old Firm need us more than we need them (in the sense of a domestic league to play in), yet it is they who call the shots.

To change any aspect of our league set-up with a view of enabling a more competitive top flight will simply never happen without consent from the Old Firm.

It will be what it is for the quite foreseeable future.

[ancient hibee]

OF leave Scottish football say goodbye to TV contracts. The TV companies wouldn’t even cover games for Scottish consumption . Ross Co v Livingston anybody?

[Paul1642]

Imagine the excitement right now without them.

Hearts 5 points clear at the top but still need to play us a twice. Aberdeen Livi and St Mirren knowing that a decent run could still see them win the league

There is not a team the the SPL that would be staring a season thinking that there was no chance in winning it.

[Bronson]

I’d happily see the ugly sisters leave tomorrow but we’d lose any tv deal and clubs would fold.

My other worry is that it would leave the scottish league with a core support that would dwindle as decades passed and new fans would ignore it for the tourist league down south. I worry we’d end up like the league of ireland in 20-30 years.

[MWHIBBIES]

OF leave Scottish football say goodbye to TV contracts. The TV companies wouldn’t even cover games for Scottish consumption . Ross Co v Livingston anybody?

If everyone has less money, no one has less money. I'd rather watch a decent Hibs team win the league than a good one finish 3rd.

[Eyrie]

Yeh mate, but we're not talking about working within that ridiculous situation, we are talking about revolution here. The clubs are the SPFL and if they decide to leave that body and form a new league system there would be absolutely nothing the Uglies could do about it because the voting system they exploit, like the SPFL, would no longer exist ... they can't make the other clubs play them, no matter how much they might think they can.

Is the correct answer.

But to make it work properly we would need to exclude the Ugly Sisters or the financial advantage they hold would just wreck the new league.

I'm in favour.

[Greencore]

In the early 2000s, all of the SPL clubs apart from the old firm resigned from the league, but they bottled it and changed their minds.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2002/apr/16/newsstory.sport7

[Bishop Hibee]

I’d be delighted for the OF to leave for a Euro ‘greed is good’ League. Given crowds outside the OF are at a decent level with zero chance of winning the League, surely interest wound grow if the league title was wide open and the cups even more so.

[Irish_Steve]

Playing Devil's Advocate here but why would the OF want to leave especially when they earn millions from winning everything and qualifying for Europe. The average OF fan may want to move to a different league but I would seriously wonder if the owners would want that? At the minute, playing in Scotland is virtually a way of printing money for them.

But yes, I hate them both with a passion.

[lugz]

Playing Devil's Advocate here but why would the OF want to leave especially when they earn millions from winning everything and qualifying for Europe. The average OF fan may want to move to a different league but I would seriously wonder if the owners would want that? At the minute, playing in Scotland is virtually a way of printing money for them.

But yes, I hate them both with a passion.

This is an excellent point, they go down south and even with the improved income that the premiership has they wouldn't crack the top 4 probably ever so you say goodbye to the champs league money that they're guaranteed annually up here.

Also let's be honest neither set of fans could go years without trophies as they're so used to being the big fishes in the small pond.

[Iain G]

I do think the rest of the teams should split off and form their own leagues and competitions and see how they get on with nobody to play. **** em.

[DH1875]

Dundee, Ayr Utd, Partick, Morton, Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Airdrie, Queen of the South & ICT to create a 1st division of 20 teams playing each other home and away making a total of 38 games with plenty of derbies included.

Maybe split the gate receipts 75%-25% to allow some semblence of competition.

(The other 2 can play each other every week in a Glasgow Cup.)

None of these teams would come close to winning this new league. What difference is it to them if its rangers and celtic winning the league or us, hearts or Aberdeen winning it.

[wallpaperman]

So glad that other people are coming to same conclusion that I have for a while.

The old firm don’t care about the competition levels in the league, so the other clubs have to force something. All the other clubs have the power, will be just too scared to use it.

[Scorrie]

For me, we need a bigger top division and only play other teams twice. Only playing the OF four times a season instead of 8( assuming top six) means that you can get a good run of form going against other teams thus hopefully keeping the gap to the OF manageable. There are teams currently outwith the SPL that could make it a decent larger league. Would we ever get this? I doubt it as the OF would lose 2 of their games

[TheGreenMan]

We need an 18 team league. Like the German league. Play each team twice. Halves the games against old firm and on a good season, a Hibs, Aberdeen or Hearts could potentially close the gap a bit, maybe finish 2nd but still wouldn’t win it. Would make it more competitive though for sure. 4 games against lesser teams instead of against they 2 and more of a variety of fixtures than the current 4 games nonsense. Anyone tinpot enough to need an extra 2 visits from the OF for gate money can GTF

Pars, Falkirk, Partick, Dundee, ICT and Raith/Morton/Queens Park added. More glamorous-no. More competitive-yes

[The_Exile]

None of these teams would come close to winning this new league.

Exactly, probably as much chance as a diddy club like St Johnstone winning a cup double.

[The_Exile]

What reason did they give for voting with Celtic?

I recall them saying it was something about the proposals didn't go far enough but that seems a total cop out. Change the vote to a 9-3 or whatever and then make the case for it to go further. Don't sink the whole thing.

It was a total cop out. From the chat at the time I seem to remember their fans being on board with the way the club voted too as the genuinely believed that they were about to emerge as the primary force outwith Celtic in Scottish Football, so having the rest of the clubs dictating things to them was seen as a negative, so they voted along with Celtic. They had ideas well above their station as it was obvious to everybody that it would only be a matter of time before The Rangers were back in the top league and the usual situation of them and Celtic being in a league of their own and rest of us fighting over the scraps. It was so short-sighted and idiotic. From memory I think Motherwell were also on the fence as they had a good run at 2nd when Rangers were demoted, but they came to their senses fairly sharpish.

[The Modfather]

None of these teams would come close to winning this new league. What difference is it to them if its rangers and celtic winning the league or us, hearts or Aberdeen winning it.

None of those teams would likely win it, but not impossible. In the last 10 years we’ve seen Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell x2 & St Johnstone finish best of the rest (a better gauge than 3rd as Motherwell finished 2nd with no Rangers for example).

Hibs, Hearts & Aberdeen should win it most of the time, but no team has ever really managed to build a sustained stranglehold on 3rd other than a handful of seasons before falling away again. All teams would have a realistic chance of punching above their weight for a single season while others fall away and win the league, as happened in the seasons Motherwell and St Johnstone finished best of the rest.

[Waxy]

Get the b teams out of the lowland league for a start.
Awful and only benefits the sisters while destroying the leagues integrity.

[DH1875]

Exactly, probably as much chance as a diddy club like St Johnstone winning a cup double.

That was the cups not the league. Take it over a full season and St Johnstone wouldn't win the league.
They also some how managed to win those cups with celtic and rangers in the competition so it still is doable with them in it.

[neil7908]

It's not just domestic dominance either - clubs outwith the OF have been terrible in Europe for years. The league is a write off on day 1, and then you have the rest battling for a place in Europe, to be then get put out by some Latvian team no one has ever heard of.

It's all starting to feel a bit pointless at times imo and you have to ask, how much longer can it go on?

As others have posted, I accept the drop in TV would be a huge risk financially but I just don't see the current model as bring sustainable. Eventually the OF will move to a super league or the EPL and then what?

I'd rather we take control now and expect that if it was clear the rest were serious, we could get some pretty big concessions from the Ugly Sisters.

Doing nothing and hoping things magically sort themselves out is not an option I can support.

[DH1875]

None of those teams would likely win it, but not impossible. In the last 10 years we’ve seen Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell x2 & St Johnstone finish best of the rest (a better gauge than 3rd as Motherwell finished 2nd with no Rangers for example).

Hibs, Hearts & Aberdeen should win it most of the time, but no team has ever really managed to build a sustained stranglehold on 3rd other than a handful of seasons before falling away again. All teams would have a realistic chance of punching above their weight for a single season while others fall away and win the league, as happened in the seasons Motherwell and St Johnstone finished best of the rest.

Maybe to start with but eventually us, Aberdeen and hearts would rise to the top with the money coming in from winning the league, playing in Europe, full houses etc... which would then also mean more money through sponsorships and investments and stuff. Aberdeen could see this and its the reason they didn't vote for change when we had the chance to change it.
I think its the reason a lot of our fans are all for it, because we would win and we could win the league, makes sense. Like I've said before though, would it really make a difference to about 80% of the other teams as they still aren't winning anything.

[Smartie]

The standard outside the top 2 is possibly as poor as it’s been.

This isn’t a good Hibs side, it’s pretty bloody awful compared to what most of us recognise as a decent Hibs side yet there’s a fairly good chance we’ll finish 4th. Think of some of the Hibs sides of the past who have struggled to make 4th, or the players who have played for us whose teams didn’t often reach those heights.

I’m not buying that Rangers have drastically improved. We used to go toe to toe regularly with the 9 in a row Rangers team who did well in the early Champions League years. Do Colak or Morelos feature in the top dozen Rangers strikers we’ve played against? Was there a Gascoigne or a Laudrup or van Bronckhorst pulling the strings for them the other night? Does Cantwell really compare?

I think they’re well coached currently (and I don’t think our coach has yet grasped getting the best out of a poor squad in certain games) but I think that while we might be good enough to finish near the top of a pile of fairly awful teams, it was a bit of a wake up call regarding where Hibs should be. We’ve wasted a lot of money on crap, we’ve got a first team held together with sticking plasters and every so often we’re going to get exposed.

Football’s also a bit cyclical. I reckon Celtic are getting close to being at the peak of a cycle as they mature under Postocoglu. What goes up must come down, and no doubt the Glasgow sides will be in crisis and sacking managers again before too long.

Scottish football needs a few sides to be doing better, particularly Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hibs, and this world beating Hearts side.

[Irish_Steve]

The standard outside the top 2 is possibly as poor as it’s been.

This isn’t a good Hibs side, it’s pretty bloody awful compared to what most of us recognise as a decent Hibs side yet there’s a fairly good chance we’ll finish 4th. Think of some of the Hibs sides of the past who have struggled to make 4th, or the players who have played for us whose teams didn’t often reach those heights.

I’m not buying that Rangers have drastically improved. We used to go toe to toe regularly with the 9 in a row Rangers team who did well in the early Champions League years. Do Colak or Morelos feature in the top dozen Rangers strikers we’ve played against? Was there a Gascoigne or a Laudrup or van Bronckhorst pulling the strings for them the other night? Does Cantwell really compare?

I think they’re well coached currently (and I don’t think our coach has yet grasped getting the best out of a poor squad in certain games) but I think that while we might be good enough to finish near the top of a pile of fairly awful teams, it was a bit of a wake up call regarding where Hibs should be. We’ve wasted a lot of money on crap, we’ve got a first team held together with sticking plasters and every so often we’re going to get exposed.

Football’s also a bit cyclical. I reckon Celtic are getting close to being at the peak of a cycle as they mature under Postocoglu. What goes up must come down, and no doubt the Glasgow sides will be in crisis and sacking managers again before too long.

Scottish football needs a few sides to be doing better, particularly Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hibs, and this world beating Hearts side.

I think it’s gone beyond cyclical especially with Celtic. In the past, if either of the OF were struggling in the league, they would simply buy one of our or any other teams best player thereby strengthening themselves and weakening us. Now, with the riches they have, they can simply go out and buy a far higher standard of footballer than we can ever dream of now.

Didn’t Rangers pay Liverpool £7m for Ryan Kent? That’s what Hibs and the rest of us are up against

[Greencore]

I'd love for all 10 clubs to go their separate ways. Think of the title challenges. Hibs, hearts, aberdeen.. possibly dundee united when they sort theirselves out.

Never going to happen though. Clubs are too scared and the media would never allow it.

[The Modfather]

Maybe to start with but eventually us, Aberdeen and hearts would rise to the top with the money coming in from winning the league, playing in Europe, full houses etc... which would then also mean more money through sponsorships and investments and stuff. Aberdeen could see this and its the reason they didn't vote for change when we had the chance to change it.
I think its the reason a lot of our fans are all for it, because we would win and we could win the league, makes sense. Like I've said before though, would it really make a difference to about 80% of the other teams as they still aren't winning anything.

Get a fairer distribution of what sponsorship we could attract and something along the lines of away teams getting a % of the home gates would certainly help keep the league competitive. European runs would be back to a couple of backwater ties so no one likely to get near the riches of the group stages.

Hibs, Hearts & Aberdeen should dominate, but that’s also based on an assumption we could spend our bigger budgets wisely, which we haven’t particularly managed in the last 20 or 30 years. There would still be seasons where Motherwell won the league, or St Johnston etc.

I’m maybe in a minority, but I’d probably be in favour of clubs not having much money and thus being forced to look to field homegrown teams and investing in youth academies to make any long term progress. Decades of watching us churn through players each season in a league with a low glass ceiling has sucked the joy in Scottish football from me. Particular now where being slightly less crap than the 9 other interchangeable teams is the barometer of success. I now just long to watch another homegrown team come through and watch it grow from the beginning.

[Joe6-2]

It’s also especially galling that the Hun went bust not so long ago and are now back at the top again, sickening (I know, second top)

[Pretty Boy]

Since Aberdeen won the league in 1985 there have been 19 championships for Celtic and 18 for Rangers. That will confirmed as 20 v 18 in about 5 or 6 weeks time.

In the same time period the Scottish Cup has been won by Celtic 13 times and Rangers 9 times. Celtic have won 4 of the last 6. The League Cup has seen 14 victories for Rangers and 12 for Celtic. Celtic have won 7 of the last 10. Even the cups are becoming more of a closed shop than they ever were.

It's just boring. You go into every season knowing the absolute best you can do is finish 3rd and if you are less than 20 points behind the team in 2nd then it's a great season. Go out both cups early and your season could be dead by January. Going it alone without Celtic and Rangers could well be catastrophic but we need to lose this 'we would lose everything without them' mentality. No one else wants them, they need us every bit as much as we need them for the foreseeable yet we all roll over and let them call the shots. I don't know what the answer is but it surely can't be watching 2 teams win 100% of the available league titles and about 70% of the cups (and that figure will likely rise in the years to come).

[merchiston]

Don’t normally post on social media as I am an old codger, Still remember my first game as an eleven year old against Djurgaarden in 1955. Anyhow thought I would add my two pence worth to this discussion as it continues to be as depressing a situation as ever it was. In fact I would suggest it is gloomier than days gone by as evidenced by an almost 40 year gap in someone out with the uglies winning the league. Sadly there has always been a cultural malaise in this country (mainly in the West of Scotland) relating to sectarianism which has been cynically exploited by those two abhorrent clubs. They basically captured the market and in sales jargon perpetuated religious intolerance as a selling point. It beggars belief but anyone around my age will recall Rangers being acknowledged as one of the three pillars of society along with the Church of Scotland and the Scottish Legal system. My dad’s friend used to take me to both Ibrox and Parkhead and even at any early age there was what I would describe as an intrinsic sinister atmosphere around both places. Maybe it was all the street vendors selling lapel badges scarves and other memorabilia emblazoned with freedom fighters on either side of the divide or merchandising some geezer on a white horse. I found it intriguing rather than intimidating and swear when I got home I could still hear their bigoted so called battle hymns ringing in my ears. Whist there was a financial gap in those days it was nothing to what it is now. Fans of both still travel from every nook and cranny to share in their so called rightful sense of entitlement. The media hang on to their tailcoats and have no interest in calling them out. Only this week I was reading the BBC football snippets and Kenny Miller stressed that it was crucial that Rangers win the Scottish Cup to quell the fans unrest. If anything that inward looking attitude just demonstrates the sad state of the Scottish game. Regrettably the so called legislators and media will keep seeing it different.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd love for all 10 clubs to go their separate ways. Think of the title challenges. Hibs, hearts, aberdeen.. possibly dundee united when they sort theirselves out.

Never going to happen though. Clubs are too scared and the media would never allow it.

I don't think it's the media that's the worry. It's football's governing bodies and probably the courts.

I can't see the SFA recognising the breakaway. Ultimately you could force it through but that requires the backing of a load of smaller clubs. What's in it for them? Situation doesn't change much except the money generated by the Rantic machine is gone. Many of them are owned/run by Rantic sympathisers as well. Without the SFA, no UEFA, so no European competitions.

Then how would the courts react to a restraint of trade argument from Rantic?

imo, Scottish football is ****ed beyond repair. The only feasible way out is UEFA sanctioned cross border leagues, whether that's on a British Isles, Atlantic or whatever basis.

And, actually, that probably only leads to a European football is ****ed beyond repair too situation, since Madrid, Barca, Milan, Juve etc have their eyes on becoming a Euro-Rantic. :rolleyes:

[nonshinyfinish]

Was talking about this last night, most leagues over Europe, are all dominated by 2 clubs, so are we really that different?

Beats working, so I looked at winners of the top 20 European leagues (by UEFA coefficient: https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2023) since 1986 (the period in which only Celtic and one of the versions of Rangers have won our league). The number of clubs is for the current league setup; some have changed in that timeframe.

Since 1986:



England (20 clubs)
9 winners: Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester, Man Utd, Arsenal, Blackburn, Leeds, Everton


Spain (20 clubs)
5 winners: Real Madrid, Atletico, Barcelona, Valencia, Deportivo


Germany (18 clubs)
6 winners: Bayern, Dortmund, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Werder Bremen, Kaiserslautern


Italy (20 clubs)
7 winners: AC Milan, Inter, Juventus, Roma, Lazio, Sampdoria, Napoli


France (20 clubs)
10 winners: PSG, Lille, Monaco, Montpellier, Marseille, Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes, Lens, Auxerre


Netherlands (18 clubs)
5 winners: Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord, Twente, AZ


Portugal (18 clubs)
4 winners: Porto, Sporting, Benfica, Boavista


Belgium (18 clubs)
7 winners: Brugge, Genk, Anderlecht, Gent, Standard Liege, Lierse, Mechelen


Austria (12 clubs)
6 winners: RB Salzburg, Austria Vienna, Sturm Graz, Rapid Vienna, Grazer AK, Tirol Innsbruck


Serbia (16 clubs)
4 winners: Red Star, Partizan, Obilic, Vojvodina


Turkey (19 clubs)
6 winners: Trabzonspor, Besiktas, Basaksehir, Galatasaray, Fenerbahce, Bursaspor


Switzerland (10 clubs)
10 winners: Zurich, Young Boys, Basel, Grasshopper, St Gallen, Servette, Sion, Aarau, Luzern, Neuchatel Xamax


Ukraine (16 clubs)
8 winners: Dynamo Kyiv, Shakhtar, Tavriya Simferopol, Naftovyk Okhtyrka, Torpedo Zaporizhia, Volyn Lutsk, Bukovyna Chernivtsi, Zoria Voroshylovhrad


Czech Republic (16 clubs)
7 winners: Viktoria Plzen, Slavia Prague, Sparta Prague, Slovan Liberec, Baník Ostrava, Slovan Bratislava, TJ Vítkovice


Norway (16 clubs)
7 winners: Molde, Bodo/Glimt, Rosenborg, Stromsgodset, Stabaek, Brann, Valarenga


Denmark (12 clubs)
10 winners: Copenhagen, Brondby, Midtjylland, Aalborg, Nordsjaelland, Herfolge, Silkeborg, Lyngby, Odense, Aarhus


Croatia* (10 clubs)
4 winners: Dinamo Zagreb, Rijeka, Hadjuk Split, NK Zagreb


Greece (14 clubs)
5 winners: Olympiacos, PAOK, AEK, Panathinaikos, Larissa


Israel (14 clubs)
7 winners: Maccabi Haifa, Maccabi Tel Aviv, Hapoel Be'er Sheva, Ironi Kiryat Shmona, Beitar Jerusalem, Hapoel Haifa, Bnei Yehuda Tel Aviv


*Croatian league only goes back to 1992.


What's noticeable is that while nowhere else has the same extended period of apparently unbreakable dominance that we do, pretty much every league seems to be getting less competitive and the unexpected champions really dry up when you look at a shorter timeframe. Unsurprising given the effect of CL money and 'infinite money' clubs like PSG widening the gap between the elite and the rest.

This is for the last 10 years:



England (20 clubs)
5 winners: Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Leicester, Man Utd


Spain (20 clubs)
3 winners: Real Madrid, Atletico, Barcelona


Germany (18 clubs)
1 winner: Bayern


Italy (20 clubs)
3 winners: AC Milan, Inter, Juventus


France (20 clubs)
3 winners: PSG, Lille, Monaco


Netherlands (18 clubs)
3 winners: Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord


Portugal (18 clubs)
3 winners: Porto, Sporting, Benfica


Belgium (18 clubs)
4 winners: Brugge, Genk, Anderlecht, Gent


Austria (12 clubs)
2 winners: RB Salzburg, Austria Vienna


Serbia (16 clubs)
2 winners: Red Star, Partizan


Turkey (19 clubs)
4 winners: Trabzonspor, Besiktas, Basaksehir, Galatasaray


Switzerland (10 clubs)
3 winners: Zurich, Young Boys, Basel


Ukraine (16 clubs)
2 winners: Dynamo Kyiv, Shakhtar


Czech Republic (16 clubs)
3 winners: Viktoria Plzen, Slavia Prague, Sparta Prague


Norway (16 clubs)
4 winners: Molde, Bodo/Glimt, Rosenborg, Stromsgodset


Denmark (12 clubs)
4 winners: Copenhagen, Brondby, Midtjylland, Aalborg


Croatia (10 clubs)
2 winners: Dinamo Zagreb, Rijeka


Greece (14 clubs)
3 winners: Olympiacos, PAOK, AEK


Israel (14 clubs)
3 winners: Maccabi Haifa, Maccabi Tel Aviv, Hapoel Be'er Sheva




None of those teams would likely win it, but not impossible. In the last 10 years we’ve seen Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Motherwell x2 & St Johnstone finish best of the rest (a better gauge than 3rd as Motherwell finished 2nd with no Rangers for example).

Hibs, Hearts & Aberdeen should win it most of the time, but no team has ever really managed to build a sustained stranglehold on 3rd other than a handful of seasons before falling away again. All teams would have a realistic chance of punching above their weight for a single season while others fall away and win the league, as happened in the seasons Motherwell and St Johnstone finished best of the rest.

Those five theoretical champions across 10 years would make that league joint most competitive (with the EPL) of everything listed above, at least by this measure. (Although the non-OF clubs would need to seriously up their game in Europe in order to trouble the UEFA top 20.)

[NAE NOOKIE]

Some really good contributions on here, but it also shows what a complicated situation this is, clearly every option has it's pitfalls.

I get the folk who say without the Uglies Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen would likely take their place dominating the league. But I simply can't see it becoming like it is now with one or two of them forming an insurmountable financial gulf ... yes maybe a financial gap, but not so big that a club like Motherwell, Dundee United or St Mirren couldn't have their day in the league competition once in a while.

I still maintain that the Uglies leaving to join the EPL would absolutely consign the rest of us to a league of Ireland situation far more than simply sidelining them would.
It's hard enough turning kids from the dubious delights of both the Uglies and the EPL now, that would become near on impossible if the Uglies and the EPL were put together .... and make no mistake, with the riches available and the fan bases they have the Uglies would be competitive, within 10 years Celtic, who can already near enough fill a 60,000 stadium now, would probably need to increase that capacity to 70,000. And I don't buy into the theory that them not winning every week would destroy their fanbases, there are big clubs in the EPL who sell out every week without having won anything for decades, the glamour and kudos of simply being in that league keeps them coming .... Everton who have done sod all for years have a season ticket waiting list of about 10,000.

As it is this is all musing and I can't disagree with folk who say Scottish football club owners will never have the will or the ingenuity to find a way to sideline the Uglies and the situation we currently find ourselves in will continue for the foreseeable future. But on the back of that what the hell is to stop them being far far more aggressive in an attempt to persuade folk to stop following the Glasgow duopoly and support their local clubs.

I'm even talking about TV and Radio campaigns .... If enough clubs got together surely they could afford to fund an advert that simply highlights the current state of the game and says, 'if you wan't to change this support your local club, because by ignoring them to follow Celtic and Rangers you are doing nothing less than contributing to the demise of professional football in Scotland' ..... OK it might not work, but it would surely be worth a shot and at least it would highlight to the world how concerned we are at the current situation.

At what point do the gloves come off and any and every tactic become worth considering? If we are not at that point by now I fail to see how much worse it has to get before we are.

[sauzeelegod]

Long overdue.
I would love them both to leave.
We could have a 20 team league playing each other twice a season.
There could be a discussion for a switch to summer football too.
That might help with the TV deal as there will be no EPL champs league games etc at the same time.
Would also possibly help us when playing in Europe as our season will be up and running when that kicks off so players would be fitter etc.

We need some kind of change.
And some kind of salary cap.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

To me, the opportunity for any kind of action was when the rangers were required to start again in league 2. The opportunity was there for clubs to do something and none of them took it

When they came back up, it was business as usual.

It was possible that clubs had seen what had happened to hearts and the rangers and were put off

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Long overdue.
I would love them both to leave.
We could have a 20 team league playing each other twice a season.
There could be a discussion for a switch to summer football too.
That might help with the TV deal as there will be no EPL champs league games etc at the same time.
Would also possibly help us when playing in Europe as our season will be up and running when that kicks off so players would be fitter etc.

We need some kind of change.

Summer football and a bigger league is a huge selling point imo, you already get hibs hearts and Aberdeen games that aren’t vs the OF on sky pretty regularly, so the support and demand is obviously there to watch our games on television. Yes the deal we’d get with sky would be a lesser amount but as you say with the draw of those 3 clubs being in the competition and probably battling it out for the title most of the time alongside there being no English football to contend with for air time we’d get a tv deal no bother imo. Problem of course is what’s in it for everyone else other than the three I have mentioned and maybe Dundee Utd? Why should they give a ****, nothing would change for them other than a drop in revenue?


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[Pretty Boy]

Summer football and a bigger league is a huge selling point imo, you already get hibs hearts and Aberdeen games that aren’t vs the OF on sky pretty regularly, so the support and demand is obviously there to watch our games on television. Yes the deal we’d get with sky would be a lesser amount but as you say with the draw of those 3 clubs being in the competition and probably battling it out for the title most of the time alongside there being no English football to contend with for air time we’d get a tv deal no bother imo. Problem of course is what’s in it for everyone else other than the three I have mentioned and maybe Dundee Utd? Why should they give a ****, nothing would change for them other than a drop in revenue?


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With regards the TV deal I genuinely can't remember the last time I watched an entire Scottish game on Sky that didn't involve Hibs. Obviously the OF have huge fanbases but how many neutrals watch their games?

As a neutral (when games don't involve Hibs) I'd much rather watch an Ayrshire derby from a packed Somerset Park, Falkirk v Dunfermilne or a Dundee derby than Celtic scud St Mirren or Ross County by 4 or 5 with the game over after 55 minutes. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

The NIFL have a broadcast deal for the league with Sky, the cups with the BBC and internationally with OneSports. The idea we would get nothing is ludicrous, it would be reduced of course but then the figures are pretty paltry anyway.

More games on Friday and Saturday evenings so people can make a day or night of it. Don't have a club like FC Edinburgh playing at home at the same time as Hibs or Hearts, make sure all the big derbies and rivalries are to the fore on TV and after costs split the gate receipts, not 50/50 but even 80/20 in favour of the home team levels the playing field a little bit.

[The_Exile]

I was at the Dunfermline v Falkirk game, I think the attendance was a little over 9 and half thousand, for a league 1 game, with the league on the line, and the place was absolutely bouncing from the 1st minute to the last. If that doesn't prove there is a massive appetite for competitive football regardless of what level you're playing at in this country then I don't know what else will.

I do try and get to as many interesting games as I can (finances permitting) and I can say for an absolute fact that there's plenty of young folk supporting their local teams up and down the land. Don't we have the highest attendances per capita in any league in Europe by an absolutely enormous margin? I vaguely remember reading we were well over 50% in front of 2nd place. There is so much potential in Scotland that feels like it's completely untapped.

[NAE NOOKIE]

With regards the TV deal I genuinely can't remember the last time I watched an entire Scottish game on Sky that didn't involve Hibs. Obviously the OF have huge fanbases but how many neutrals watch their games?

As a neutral (when games don't involve Hibs) I'd much rather watch an Ayrshire derby from a packed Somerset Park, Falkirk v Dunfermilne or a Dundee derby than Celtic scud St Mirren or Ross County by 4 or 5 with the game over after 55 minutes. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

The NIFL have a broadcast deal for the league with Sky, the cups with the BBC and internationally with OneSports. The idea we would get nothing is ludicrous, it would be reduced of course but then the figures are pretty paltry anyway.

More games on Friday and Saturday evenings so people can make a day or night of it. Don't have a club like FC Edinburgh playing at home at the same time as Hibs or Hearts, make sure all the big derbies and rivalries are to the fore on TV and after costs split the gate receipts, not 50/50 but even 80/20 in favour of the home team levels the playing field a little bit.

Totally agree mate ..... I was absolutely baffled when the BBC chose Celtic v Morton as their Saturday game in an earlier round of the cup, who the hell apart from an armchair Sellic fan want's to watch Celtic pump the likes of Morton when the round was awash with ties that might have provided an entertaining contest and possibly even an upset.

I've seen quite a few of the Championship games on BBC Scotland channel this season and found them highly entertaining .... I love watching games from the likes of Dundee, Ayr and Raith Rovers with dedicated fans following their historic clubs and I loved Raith Rovers wee band of 'ultras' who I think must have had an average age of about 14 .... but they were there supporting their local club and they are brilliant because of it.

We have clubs in this country with decent latent supports and I think most of us were more than pleasantly surprised by the turnout for Dunfermline v Falkirk .... If a crowd like that is possible in the 1st division imagine what could happen if more clubs were given the chance to be competitive in a league system where rising to the top had an outside chance, rather than being an absolute impossibility.

[JeMeSouviens]

Totally agree mate ..... I was absolutely baffled when the BBC chose Celtic v Morton as their Saturday game in an earlier round of the cup, who the hell apart from an armchair Sellic fan want's to watch Celtic pump the likes of Morton when the round was awash with ties that might have provided an entertaining contest and possibly even an upset.

I've seen quite a few of the Championship games on BBC Scotland channel this season and found them highly entertaining .... I love watching games from the likes of Dundee, Ayr and Raith Rovers with dedicated fans following their historic clubs and I loved Raith Rovers wee band of 'ultras' who I think must have had an average age of about 14 .... but they were there supporting their local club and they are brilliant because of it.

We have clubs in this country with decent latent supports and I think most of us were more than pleasantly surprised by the turnout for Dunfermline v Falkirk .... If a crowd like that is possible in the 1st division imagine what could happen if more clubs were given the chance to be competitive in a league system where rising to the top had an outside chance, rather than being an absolute impossibility.

Pars v Bairns is almost a derby. They absolutely hate each other stretching back decades. This is presumably the first time they've been in the same league for a while?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Pars v Bairns is almost a derby. They absolutely hate each other stretching back decades. This is presumably the first time they've been in the same league for a while?

That's absolutely true mate, but it simply reinforces the fact that if the circumstances are right two of Scotland's middle of the road clubs can attract a decent crowd to watch them play, even when both are in the third tier.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's absolutely true mate, but it simply reinforces the fact that if the circumstances are right two of Scotland's middle of the road clubs can attract a decent crowd to watch them play, even when both are in the third tier.

:agree:

Some games are meaningful just because of who's involved but if you make more meaningful because the league is competitive, so much the better attendance wise.

[Pretty Boy]

Totally agree mate ..... I was absolutely baffled when the BBC chose Celtic v Morton as their Saturday game in an earlier round of the cup, who the hell apart from an armchair Sellic fan want's to watch Celtic pump the likes of Morton when the round was awash with ties that might have provided an entertaining contest and possibly even an upset.

I've seen quite a few of the Championship games on BBC Scotland channel this season and found them highly entertaining .... I love watching games from the likes of Dundee, Ayr and Raith Rovers with dedicated fans following their historic clubs and I loved Raith Rovers wee band of 'ultras' who I think must have had an average age of about 14 .... but they were there supporting their local club and they are brilliant because of it.

We have clubs in this country with decent latent supports and I think most of us were more than pleasantly surprised by the turnout for Dunfermline v Falkirk .... If a crowd like that is possible in the 1st division imagine what could happen if more clubs were given the chance to be competitive in a league system where rising to the top had an outside chance, rather than being an absolute impossibility.

I love watching the wee ultra groups at non league and lower league games.

The 'Big T Bois' at Tranent have decent numbers and make a lot of noise. I was at Newtongrange v Dundonald the other week, a freezing Tuesday night and there must have been a group of a dozen or so young lads who never shut up from 1st to last.

Don't get me wrong I know a lot of these guys will support Hibs, Hearts, Rangers etc as well but who cares really? If they are turning out to watch a local side it's money in the pocket of the club and a fundamentally good thing. The crowds that Falkirk, Dunfermilne, Raith Rovers, Ayr, Airdrie etc can pull for big games or fixtures when it really matters suggests their fanbases haven't completely died out. Give me a group of teenagers acting a bit daft at Ainslie Park or Prestonfield over lads sitting playing Fifa or watching the EPL any day.

[Islington Hibs]

Good post Nae Nookie and I reluctantly agree. The situation is unsustainable and the owners of the non old firm clubs need to be discussing this and coming up with a plan.

As others have said it is frankly remarkable how strong the support is for Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and indeed, given their populations, quite a few others but as the gap is getting frankly so large its is slowly killing it. Your Dunfermline/ Falkirk point is extraordinary 9500 I think and shows the level of interest when their is competition.

The Scottish league would be brilliantly balanced without Celtic and Rangers with 3/4 broadly equal sides plus another 10 of decent size that actually could win things from time to time.

The owners will likely bottle it for fear of losing TV money but the alternative is a slow death. They need to take a strategic long term view and if they do they must see being the not even bridesmaid is not that attractive

[superfurryhibby]

Some really good contributions on here, but it also shows what a complicated situation this is, clearly every option has it's pitfalls.

I get the folk who say without the Uglies Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen would likely take their place dominating the league. But I simply can't see it becoming like it is now with one or two of them forming an insurmountable financial gulf ... yes maybe a financial gap, but not so big that a club like Motherwell, Dundee United or St Mirren couldn't have their day in the league competition once in a while.

I still maintain that the Uglies leaving to join the EPL would absolutely consign the rest of us to a league of Ireland situation far more than simply sidelining them would.
It's hard enough turning kids from the dubious delights of both the Uglies and the EPL now, that would become near on impossible if the Uglies and the EPL were put together .... and make no mistake, with the riches available and the fan bases they have the Uglies would be competitive, within 10 years Celtic, who can already near enough fill a 60,000 stadium now, would probably need to increase that capacity to 70,000. And I don't buy into the theory that them not winning every week would destroy their fanbases, there are big clubs in the EPL who sell out every week without having won anything for decades, the glamour and kudos of simply being in that league keeps them coming .... Everton who have done sod all for years have a season ticket waiting list of about 10,000.

As it is this is all musing and I can't disagree with folk who say Scottish football club owners will never have the will or the ingenuity to find a way to sideline the Uglies and the situation we currently find ourselves in will continue for the foreseeable future. But on the back of that what the hell is to stop them being far far more aggressive in an attempt to persuade folk to stop following the Glasgow duopoly and support their local clubs.

I'm even talking about TV and Radio campaigns .... If enough clubs got together surely they could afford to fund an advert that simply highlights the current state of the game and says, 'if you wan't to change this support your local club, because by ignoring them to follow Celtic and Rangers you are doing nothing less than contributing to the demise of professional football in Scotland' ..... OK it might not work, but it would surely be worth a shot and at least it would highlight to the world how concerned we are at the current situation.

At what point do the gloves come off and any and every tactic become worth considering? If we are not at that point by now I fail to see how much worse it has to get before we are.

I don't agree with your League of Ireland analogy. Football here is a far bigger sport than it is in Ireland where Hurley, Gaelic Football and Rugby all compete with and are bigger spectator sports than football.

With regard to the Uglies leaving, they will never join The EPL or the any English league, they don't need them and don't want want them. The only way they're going to leave our game is to join an future European league set up. From memory Ron Gordon was keen to ensure that if there ever was a European League, Hibs would be represented in it too.

[Carheenlea]

I don't agree with your League of Ireland analogy. Football here is a far bigger sport than it is in Ireland where Hurley, Gaelic Football and Rugby all compete with and are bigger spectator sports than football.

With regard to the Uglies leaving, they will never join The EPL or the any English league, they don't need them and don't want want them. The only way they're going to leave our game is to join an future European league set up. From memory Ron Gordon was keen to ensure that if there ever was a European League, Hibs would be represented in it too.

I can’t see a European League that would be stand alone. A separate euro league while still competing in domestic league football in order to qualify for future euro leagues perhaps.

Probably stuck with the pair of them for ever.

[hibbydog]

Great thread Nae Nookie

I spent most of the second half complaining about how Celtic and Rangers are so far ahead of everyone else that it spoils the league.

Everyone else is cannon fodder and they should clear off somewhere else.

I can’t see a realistic way of making that happen. Nobody else wants them

[Hibs4185]

Unfortunately a few years ago we could compete with clubs from the championship/League 1 for players but now our wages are comparable to League 2.

Rangers and Celtic can still afford lower Premier League/Championship players so the gulf is growing unfortunately.

RG was right, we need to grow the game in Scotland by whatever means neccessary. Rangers and Celtic don’t have scope to improve massively but the rest with better income can.

[Just_Jimmy]

Barca in bother for paying refs...

And yet scottish football claims it's clean [emoji1787]

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[Eyrie]

Summer football and a bigger league is a huge selling point imo, you already get hibs hearts and Aberdeen games that aren’t vs the OF on sky pretty regularly, so the support and demand is obviously there to watch our games on television. Yes the deal we’d get with sky would be a lesser amount but as you say with the draw of those 3 clubs being in the competition and probably battling it out for the title most of the time alongside there being no English football to contend with for air time we’d get a tv deal no bother imo. Problem of course is what’s in it for everyone else other than the three I have mentioned and maybe Dundee Utd? Why should they give a ****, nothing would change for them other than a drop in revenue?

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Would any Scottish football club be worse off under a TV deal for a league with no Ugly Sisters? They hoover up the bulk of the money at present so the new deal only needs to match what the rest of us get anyway.

[Since452]

Celtic and Rangers have scored a combined 14 goals at Tynecastle this season and we know how difficult it is there. Different level.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Great thread Nae Nookie

I spent most of the second half complaining about how Celtic and Rangers are so far ahead of everyone else that it spoils the league.

Everyone else is cannon fodder and they should clear off somewhere else.

I can’t see a realistic way of making that happen. Nobody else wants them

It not 'nobody else' mate, it's literally nobody at all.

As I've said throughout this thread, it's gone way beyond waiting for them to clear off. I am firmly convinced that for the good of Scottish football long term the time has come for everybody else to clear off leaving them to play each other 4 times a year in their own two team league.

[Glory Lurker]

Until they go somewhere, we're not going anywhere.

[Lago]

Great thread Nae Nookie

I spent most of the second half complaining about how Celtic and Rangers are so far ahead of everyone else that it spoils the league.

Everyone else is cannon fodder and they should clear off somewhere else.

I can’t see a realistic way of making that happen. Nobody else wants them

It not 'nobody else' mate, it's literally nobody at all.

As I've said throughout this thread, it's gone way beyond waiting for them to clear off. I am firmly convinced that for the good of Scottish football long term the time has come for everybody else to clear off leaving them to play each other 4 times a year in their own two team league.
Never happen period, your living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the powers to be will ever change.

[The_Exile]

Would any Scottish football club be worse off under a TV deal for a league with no Ugly Sisters? They hoover up the bulk of the money at present so the new deal only needs to match what the rest of us get anyway.

I don't even think we would need a TV deal initially. I would quite happily pay £15 a month for a streaming service that showed lots of games, and I'm skint. There's so much great football and stories up and down the leagues and we don't have access to it currently.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Never happen period, your living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the powers to be will ever change.


Where did I say I thought they would ever change mate. Think I've made it pretty clear in my own posts on the thread that in my opinion the have neither the guts nor the vision to change things.

Since Aberdeen won the league in 84/85 nobody outside of the Uglies has won the league in 37, soon to be 38, seasons.

Between them they have won 24 of the 37 Scottish cup finals in that time.

Between them they have won 26 of the 38 League cup finals in that time.

So in a total of 112 goes the whole of Scottish football has managed to get the better of them just 25 times ... by the end of this season that will be 25 out of 114 barring a miracle in the Scottish cup.

Looking at the state of things just now I would love somebody to tell me how without drastic change that stat isn't likely to get far worse, not better.

[heretoday]

Scottish football can get bent as far as I am concerned. It's so boring and hopeless being a Hibs fan with only the slim chance of another cup win to aim for.

[hibbydog]

Great thread Nae Nookie

I spent most of the second half complaining about how Celtic and Rangers are so far ahead of everyone else that it spoils the league.

Everyone else is cannon fodder and they should clear off somewhere else.

I can’t see a realistic way of making that happen. Nobody else wants them

It not 'nobody else' mate, it's literally nobody at all.

As I've said throughout this thread, it's gone way beyond waiting for them to clear off. I am firmly convinced that for the good of Scottish football long term the time has come for everybody else to clear off leaving them to play each other 4 times a year in their own two team league.

Yep. The sad thing is that the chairmen of all the clubs won’t have the foresight or the courage to resign from the league. They don’t have the balls.

So more of the same for the next 40 years.

[CelticEnd]

As a Celtic fan the only way I can see to make it more competitive would be expanding the size of the league. At the moment it's too hard for a manager to come into the SPFL and develop a good attacking team and good attacking players when they're facing Celtic/Rangers in over 20% of their fixtures (assuming they finish top 6).

Having said that clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen also have to take their own share of the blame. It's 100% correct to say Celtic have huge and likely unsurmountable advantages but none of the bigger Scottish clubs mentioned have came close to matching their potential. For Hibs or Hearts to be relegated for example is the same type of mismanagement that would give another club the change to challenge Celtic over a season.

[stuart-farquhar]

As a Celtic fan the only way I can see to make it more competitive would be expanding the size of the league. At the moment it's too hard for a manager to come into the SPFL and develop a good attacking team and good attacking players when they're facing Celtic/Rangers in over 20% of their fixtures (assuming they finish top 6).

Having said that clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen also have to take their own share of the blame. It's 100% correct to say Celtic have huge and likely unsurmountable advantages but none of the bigger Scottish clubs mentioned have came close to matching their potential. For Hibs or Hearts to be relegated for example is the same type of mismanagement that would give another club the change to challenge Celtic over a season.

Nice try.

[superfurryhibby]

I can’t see a European League that would be stand alone. A separate euro league while still competing in domestic league football in order to qualify for future euro leagues perhaps.

Probably stuck with the pair of them for ever.

Breakaway Leagues, no Uefa, no Fifa.

It’s been mooted before and I ask why do the elite clubs need a governing body that grows enormously rich on their backs?

[Carheenlea]

As a Celtic fan the only way I can see to make it more competitive would be expanding the size of the league. At the moment it's too hard for a manager to come into the SPFL and develop a good attacking team and good attacking players when they're facing Celtic/Rangers in over 20% of their fixtures (assuming they finish top 6).

Having said that clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen also have to take their own share of the blame. It's 100% correct to say Celtic have huge and likely unsurmountable advantages but none of the bigger Scottish clubs mentioned have came close to matching their potential. For Hibs or Hearts to be relegated for example is the same type of mismanagement that would give another club the change to challenge Celtic over a season.

The Old Firm can buy their way out of trouble, the rest less so.

The financial gulf between Rangers and Celtic is greater than the gulf between Hibs,Hearts/Aberdeen and the rest, so it’s not beyond the realms of possibility of any of those sides facing relegation struggles in light of poor management.

[JimBHibees]

As a Celtic fan the only way I can see to make it more competitive would be expanding the size of the league. At the moment it's too hard for a manager to come into the SPFL and develop a good attacking team and good attacking players when they're facing Celtic/Rangers in over 20% of their fixtures (assuming they finish top 6).

Having said that clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen also have to take their own share of the blame. It's 100% correct to say Celtic have huge and likely unsurmountable advantages but none of the bigger Scottish clubs mentioned have came close to matching their potential. For Hibs or Hearts to be relegated for example is the same type of mismanagement that would give another club the change to challenge Celtic over a season.

Tend to agree re bigger league and not playing each other four times. That clearly won't happen either due to club incomes and the nonsensical 11 1 vote structure which Aberdeen for some unknown no doubt secret financial reason stopped from being scrapped post sevco. Agree about the Hibs and Hearts mismanagement. The best way of getting a truly competitive league would be splitting the gate receipts as what previously happened when the league was genuinely competitive though not sure how that would work given how many season ticket holders clubs have now.

[Eyrie]

Bigger leagues are not the solution.

We're far more likely to drop points to Ross County and Dundee United than the Ugly Sisters are, and that will be the case if there is an expanded league with games against Dundee and Morton replacing games against the Ugly Sisters, so we won't get any closer to winning the league. The Ugly Sisters will cruise to four and five goal wins whereas we'll drop some frustrating points. If we're good enough to win those games consistently then we're good enough to compete with the Ugly Sisters anyway.

A quick look at the current Premiership table confirms that it's not just us. Sevco are 25 points clear of third place Hearts, who in turn are 24 points clear of Dundee United. So the team in third are closer to bottom than second after 28 games.

The only difference a league of 16, 18 or 20 teams will make is to reduce attendances. Fans want the big occasions so we had 19,341 on Wednesday. We wouldn't get that for a midweek game in early March against Partick Thistle or Raith Rovers. The novelty value of playing someone different isn't as attractive as people want to think which is why our Cup games against Championship sides have lower attendances than our league games against similar opposition.

[where'stheslope]

The biggest chance everyone got was when rangers were demoted to the 2nd division.
All that happened was that celtic hoovered up all the main trophies until they got back up!
The money celtic accrued in that time has pushed them even further ahead of everyone including rangers.
There is no way back now!!!!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

So they have to leave but can’t leave.
we are over reliant on them and the revenues, sponsorship and TV moneys and audience d they attract.

In order for our league to be more competitive we need to increase revenues.
Would be interesting to see the Deloitte report finally published (did I miss that?). Revenues within Scotland will only take us so far.

seems to me like the route to eating in to the gulf in finances is a fairer distribution of the revenues to “top flight domestic clubs” in Europe. Seems like there is moves afoot on the revamp of European comps. If this is the challenge for many leagues across Europe perhaps it needs a pan-European solution…? Even then It’s all relative - the big clubs would still get more of a slice of the action.

The question for leagues and owners within and across leagues in Europe is: Do they _really_ want more competition or the status quo?

All seems a bit of a foregone conclusion tho. FIFA and UEFA are geared towards the rich pubs getting richer and where that it’s threatened the Elite clubs threaten to change the game structure.

[The_Exile]

Fans want the big occasions so we had 19,341 on Wednesday. We wouldn't get that for a midweek game in early March against Partick Thistle or Raith Rovers.

Replace the amount of Rangers fans with the amount of fans Ross County would likely bring and the attendance would've been about 15,750? I think we got 14k for a midweek Ross County game in November there so that's a drop off of around 1.5k - 2k from the home end. I think going by this thread we're all at a similar point where most think the league is utterly pointless and games against Rangers and Celtic are no longer big occasions as we all know we will more than likely get a thorough pumping, hard to get excited about the freak 1 in 100 victory over them these days.

I am pretty disillusioned with it all, I can't get excited about a league season where 3rd is the best we can achieve and maybe a run in the cups to get a day out at Hampden, where we will no doubt get pumped again by one of the old firm in a semi or a final. What's the point in that? I think a lot of folk, myself included, are always happy to go and support the team, have a couple of beers and a scran with mates and/or family and hope to see the team win, but long-term I cannot see the competitive point in any of it, I've enjoyed more championship, league 1 and league 2 games this season than I have Premiership games as it's so much more competitive. Yes the football is not as good technically, but it's proper competition, often with the league or playoffs/relegation on the line. Like everybody else, I love this club and don't want to just stop going, the club means too much to us all but we do seem to find ourselves completely turned off by the product I suppose, not the club.

For the Celtic fan that posted earlier, are you not bored of this? Turning up every week and pumping teams 4 and 5 nothing? I would be bored stiff watching that every single week for decades and would likely become so desensitised to success that I would likely stop caring about the team I love apart from games against Hearts. I know we've got a few German based Hibbies on here, it would be interesting to hear what they think about the football in Germany as that seems to be completely dominated by Bayern Munich, although I think the German football scene has much more going for it as a day out and fan experience than we do?

[heretoday]

In answer to the original thread question - nowhere.

Any change in the game would inevitably involve the reduction in powers of the Glasgow two and that is not going to happen.

Without them the game would soon atrophy. We'd be like Iceland or similar.

[wallpaperman]

In answer to the original thread question - nowhere.

Any change in the game would inevitably involve the reduction in powers of the Glasgow two and that is not going to happen.

Without them the game would soon atrophy. We'd be like Iceland or similar.

Absolute rubbish. A comparison to Iceland is ridiculous.

Hibs probably average a bigger crowd than all the Icelandic league teams put together.

[ChilliEater]

Europe wide pyramid system - Euro 1+2, fed into by East+ West Europe 1+2, fed into by NW, SW, NE and SE Euro 1+2, fed into by national leagues. Squad cap of (say) 30 senior players. Salary cap - increasing as you move up through the leagues. All TV, advertising, sponsorship etc money into central fund, 50% split equally between all teams, 50% as prize money based on league position. Home team keeps gate receipts. Clubs keep money from their own merchandise - replica strips etc.

Successful teams with large crowds get more money, but the gulf isn't huge. Any club that is well run can climb up through the leagues.

I'm sure plenty holes can be picked in that plan, but I'm also sure you all get the gist of it.

[Jones28]

As a Celtic fan the only way I can see to make it more competitive would be expanding the size of the league. At the moment it's too hard for a manager to come into the SPFL and develop a good attacking team and good attacking players when they're facing Celtic/Rangers in over 20% of their fixtures (assuming they finish top 6).

Having said that clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen also have to take their own share of the blame. It's 100% correct to say Celtic have huge and likely unsurmountable advantages but none of the bigger Scottish clubs mentioned have came close to matching their potential. For Hibs or Hearts to be relegated for example is the same type of mismanagement that would give another club the change to challenge Celtic over a season.

Would Celtic fans be in favour of things that would make and actual difference to the rest of the league? Reformatting the voting system for example, or introducing salary caps or bandings whereby you could only have a set number of players on more than 5/10 grand a week?

[Jones28]

Europe wide pyramid system - Euro 1+2, fed into by East+ West Europe 1+2, fed into by NW, SW, NE and SE Euro 1+2, fed into by national leagues. Squad cap of (say) 30 senior players. Salary cap - increasing as you move up through the leagues. All TV, advertising, sponsorship etc money into central fund, 50% split equally between all teams, 50% as prize money based on league position. Home team keeps gate receipts. Clubs keep money from their own merchandise - replica strips etc.

Successful teams with large crowds get more money, but the gulf isn't huge. Any club that is well run can climb up through the leagues.

I'm sure plenty holes can be picked in that plan, but I'm also sure you all get the gist of it.

I don’t want a European league.

[CelticEnd]

Would Celtic fans be in favour of things that would make and actual difference to the rest of the league? Reformatting the voting system for example, or introducing salary caps or bandings whereby you could only have a set number of players on more than 5/10 grand a week?

No I don't think the would as it would really hamper any ability to compete in Europe.

There needs to be a balance found.

The game can't go on as is but the answer can't be purely dragging Celtic downwards.

I'd say as a starter:

- Maximum of one Celtic and one Rangers game to be shown live from the home clubs stadium. Other to be available PPV to generate funds.
- Gate sharing for home games at 75% home team, 25% away team
- Players loaned from Celtic to SPL teams to be able to play vs their parent club
- SPFL to adopt the same 25 man squad criteria as the Champions League with same homegrown rules

There's no quick fix. I don't think Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen as the three major teams out with Glasgow have had any proper coherent plan in recent times so it's really difficult to say where the glass ceiling is.

Aberdeen for example under McInness had a chance to put a challenge to Celtic in 2015/16 with Deila. Were within touching distance in January and never took a chance to bring in a couple of players.

[NAE NOOKIE]

As a Celtic fan the only way I can see to make it more competitive would be expanding the size of the league. At the moment it's too hard for a manager to come into the SPFL and develop a good attacking team and good attacking players when they're facing Celtic/Rangers in over 20% of their fixtures (assuming they finish top 6).

Having said that clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen also have to take their own share of the blame. It's 100% correct to say Celtic have huge and likely unsurmountable advantages but none of the bigger Scottish clubs mentioned have came close to matching their potential. For Hibs or Hearts to be relegated for example is the same type of mismanagement that would give another club the change to challenge Celtic over a season.

All expanding the league would do is create a load of unattractive fixtures with club's marooned mid table with nothing to play for by about the middle of February, it would not address the problem in the slightest. Even if that did give managers a chance to develop their teams the main players would be snapped up by English clubs for relative peanuts before you could say treble your wages.

At the weekend Celtic brought on two subs against Hearts who cost them a combines total of near on 7 million quid ... subs mate, not even in the starting XI. How would a bigger league address that financial chasm?

As for mismanagement ..... The last time a Scottish club outside of Glasgow was able to hold onto a decent side was the Aberdeen team of the 80s .. can you imagine any way now that Aberdeen would have been able to hold onto Strachan for as long as they did, or keep Miller and McLeish together for as long as they did ... not a hope in hell. Look at the Hibs team who won the league cup in 2007 ... that is a team who if kept together and added to could have won the league .... within a year Brown was gone, Fletcher was gone, Whittaker was gone because clubs like Hibs, no matter how well managed simply can't afford to match the wages even clubs in England's 1st division are willing to pay.

Not so long ago Rangers got 12 million quid from Everton for a kid who had barely kicked a ball for their first team .... can you imagine Hibs being paid anything like that if he had been ours ... Rangers and Celtic can hold out for fees like that because they have the financial clout to play hard ball ... hard ball for Hibs or Hearts would be demanding 3 million and settling for 2 million with add ons.

Nah mate ..... The only way this league will ever be a proper competition with anything approaching a level playing field will be to reconstruct it without Celtic and Rangers .... don't panic though, it's never going to happen, you can continue in your own wee world watching your sledgehammer smashing the nuts week after week with your nose pressed up to England's window hoping someone will notice you and shout 'hey come away in' .... another thing that's never gonna' happen :greengrin

[Jones28]

No I don't think the would as it would really hamper any ability to compete in Europe.

There needs to be a balance found.

The game can't go on as is but the answer can't be purely dragging Celtic downwards.

I'd say as a starter:

- Maximum of one Celtic and one Rangers game to be shown live from the home clubs stadium. Other to be available PPV to generate funds.
- Gate sharing for home games at 75% home team, 25% away team
- Players loaned from Celtic to SPL teams to be able to play vs their parent club
- SPFL to adopt the same 25 man squad criteria as the Champions League with same homegrown rules

There's no quick fix. I don't think Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen as the three major teams out with Glasgow have had any proper coherent plan in recent times so it's really difficult to say where the glass ceiling is.

Aberdeen for example under McInness had a chance to put a challenge to Celtic in 2015/16 with Deila. Were within touching distance in January and never took a chance to bring in a couple of players.


Some good suggestions in fairness. But theres not a chance in hell we get a TV deal for that, effectively cutting down the chance for Sky to show the old firm week in week out is making the deal less attractive, which means the deal is worth less which means we'd all lose out.

Gate sharing is a good idea.

The loanees thing is a bit meh, not sure how many players Celtic have out on loan but can't see it making a real difference to the teams that have any. Generally speaking if a player has been of any quality Celtic and Rangers have already given them chances and if I were in their shoes I'd probably want to stay and compete for my space.

RE the squad rules, I'm not sure how viable that would be in practice. I would put limits on matchday squads. Eg you can name 3 players at the top wage banding, 3 at the next, 3 at the next and home grown players make up the rest of the team. Call it 1 - 15k/week or more; 2 - 10-15k a week; 3 - 5-10k a week; 4 home grown or something along those lines. That way The Old Firm still get to pay their high wages, but the domestic squads are much more evenly matched.

What these suggestion are to me is quite a bit of window dressing, nothing in the way of actually closing the gap within the domestic game. Dragging Celtic and Rangers down is just about the only way we CAN close the gap, because you're not going to be able to drag the whole of Scottish Football up with you.

With regards to the glass ceiling I think you're right, no one knows where it is but I don't think the gap between the old firm and the rest has ever been as big as it is now. Hibs wage budget has increased massively in Ron Gordons tenure and I don't think we'll lay a glove on Celtic at the weekend, we were so far off Rangers the other night it was frightening. And Hearts and Aberdeen are in the same position as we are so it's not just a Hibs problem.

[HFC17]

I think the idea of reconstruction is good in principle as more teams will mean less games against the OF thus more potential to gain more points but the reality is that without financial incentives that match the loss of 1 or 2 less games a season against both OF sides and less OF games for TV, it will always be too unappealing to consider.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think the idea of reconstruction is good in principle as more teams will mean less games against the OF thus more potential to gain more points but the reality is that without financial incentives that match the loss of 1 or 2 less games a season against both OF sides and less OF games for TV, it will always be too unappealing to consider.


How will changing the size of the league prevent Celtic and Rangers from amassing just as much of a points difference between them and the rest as they do now? It makes absolutely no difference if you have an 18 team league where everybody plays each other twice with 6 more clubs involved meaning there's more chance of picking points up from each other if the two biggest clubs still have an enormous financial advantage that enables them to field teams of a quality the others can only dream of?

The nearest team to second place Rangers just now is Hearts who are 25 points behind them with a goal difference of minus 34 which in all but name means they are 26 points behind. Replacing 4 fixtures against the Uglies with 4 against Ayr United and Morton might enable Hearts to pick up more points, but you are also replacing the Uglies 4 fixtures against Hearts with games against Ayr United and Morton aren't you ... Yes it might bring Hearts closer, but it in no way increases the Uglies chance of dropping points.

The only way to make this league a competition is to get rid of the two clubs who are preventing it being one. Yes it might significantly reduce TV revenue and even league sponsorship. But I remain to be convinced it would reduce crowds at our games, in fact it might have the opposite effect.

As has been mentioned already near on 10,000 turned out to watch Dunfermline play Falkirk last week. Last night 7000 folk turned out to watch Falkirk play Ayr United. Hibs got 20,000 to turn up for a St Johnstone game, yes at reduced prices, but they were still willing to attend. Nearly 8000 turned up to watch our under 19s a few weeks ago. For the Championship playoff a couple of years ago 11,500 turned up to watch Killie play Arbroath.

These folk are turning out despite the league and cups being utterly dominated by two clubs ..... Imagine what could be possible if their chances of success were vastly improved. I genuinely think folk are vastly underestimating the appetite there could be for our game with the Uglies cut out of it.

[Lago]

How will changing the size of the league prevent Celtic and Rangers from amassing just as much of a points difference between them and the rest as they do now? It makes absolutely no difference if you have an 18 team league where everybody plays each other twice with 6 more clubs involved meaning there's more chance of picking points up from each other if the two biggest clubs still have an enormous financial advantage that enables them to field teams of a quality the others can only dream of?

The nearest team to second place Rangers just now is Hearts who are 25 points behind them with a goal difference of minus 34 which in all but name means they are 26 points behind. Replacing 4 fixtures against the Uglies with 4 against Ayr United and Morton might enable Hearts to pick up more points, but you are also replacing the Uglies 4 fixtures against Hearts with games against Ayr United and Morton aren't you ... Yes it might bring Hearts closer, but it in no way increases the Uglies chance of dropping points.

The only way to make this league a competition is to get rid of the two clubs who are preventing it being one. Yes it might significantly reduce TV revenue and even league sponsorship. But I remain to be convinced it would reduce crowds at our games, in fact it might have the opposite effect.

As has been mentioned already near on 10,000 turned out to watch Dunfermline play Falkirk last week. Last night 7000 folk turned out to watch Falkirk play Ayr United. Hibs got 20,000 to turn up for a St Johnstone game, yes at reduced prices, but they were still willing to attend. Nearly 8000 turned up to watch our under 19s a few weeks ago. For the Championship playoff a couple of years ago 11,500 turned up to watch Killie play Arbroath.

These folk are turning out despite the league and cups being utterly dominated by two clubs ..... Imagine what could be possible if their chances of success were vastly improved. I genuinely think folk are vastly underestimating the appetite there could be for our game with the Uglies cut out of it.
If it's any consolation, Craig Levein agrees with you stating today that the Scottish league is the least competitive in Europe.

[WhileTheChief..]

We need more clubs to be owned by super rich people so that half our league can pay the same wages as the Old Firm.

Or get a company to sponsor the league ‘without ‘ the old firm, in the way bookies take bets.

£10m for finishing 3rd and you still get to play in Europe!

[Keith_M]

Next month will the be 71st Anniversary of the last time Hibs won the league.

That's depressing enough in itself, but even worse is the fact that I can't see us ever doing it again.

[HFC17]

How will changing the size of the league prevent Celtic and Rangers from amassing just as much of a points difference between them and the rest as they do now? It makes absolutely no difference if you have an 18 team league where everybody plays each other twice with 6 more clubs involved meaning there's more chance of picking points up from each other if the two biggest clubs still have an enormous financial advantage that enables them to field teams of a quality the others can only dream of?

The nearest team to second place Rangers just now is Hearts who are 25 points behind them with a goal difference of minus 34 which in all but name means they are 26 points behind. Replacing 4 fixtures against the Uglies with 4 against Ayr United and Morton might enable Hearts to pick up more points, but you are also replacing the Uglies 4 fixtures against Hearts with games against Ayr United and Morton aren't you ... Yes it might bring Hearts closer, but it in no way increases the Uglies chance of dropping points.

The only way to make this league a competition is to get rid of the two clubs who are preventing it being one. Yes it might significantly reduce TV revenue and even league sponsorship. But I remain to be convinced it would reduce crowds at our games, in fact it might have the opposite effect.

As has been mentioned already near on 10,000 turned out to watch Dunfermline play Falkirk last week. Last night 7000 folk turned out to watch Falkirk play Ayr United. Hibs got 20,000 to turn up for a St Johnstone game, yes at reduced prices, but they were still willing to attend. Nearly 8000 turned up to watch our under 19s a few weeks ago. For the Championship playoff a couple of years ago 11,500 turned up to watch Killie play Arbroath.

These folk are turning out despite the league and cups being utterly dominated by two clubs ..... Imagine what could be possible if their chances of success were vastly improved. I genuinely think folk are vastly underestimating the appetite there could be for our game with the Uglies cut out of it.

I totally agree with pretty much everything that you have said there but my argument was that if there ever was the slimmest of chances of being able to close the gap slightly over one year, it would be easier having to play the OF 4 times rather than playing them 8 times although it would only help very slightly which is why I think that it is only good in principle and not in practice.

[WhileTheChief..]

We need more clubs to be owned by super rich people so that half our league can pay the same wages as the Old Firm.

Or get a company to sponsor the league ‘without ‘ the old firm, in the way bookies take bets.

£10m for finishing 3rd and you still get to play in Europe!

[Smartie]

We need more clubs to be owned by super rich people so that half our league can pay the same wages as the Old Firm.

Or get a company to sponsor the league ‘without ‘ the old firm, in the way bookies take bets.

£10m for finishing 3rd and you still get to play in Europe!

If we want more teams to be owned by super rich people we could probably do without desecrating marks of respect for those who do when they sadly pass away due to cancer.

[eastmainsmsh]

It will never get better as everything revolves around old firm the last time it was competitive was before GS Rangers era

[HFC17]

It will never get better as everything revolves around old firm the last time it was competitive was before GS Rangers era

Agreed

[WhileTheChief..]

If we want more teams to be owned by super rich people we could probably do without desecrating marks of respect for those who do when they sadly pass away due to cancer.

Erm ok. Not sure that’s got anything to do with my post though.

I doubt any Sheiks in UAE we’re paying that much attention last week!

[Donegal Hibby]

Next month will the be 71st Anniversary of the last time Hibs won the league.

That's depressing enough in itself, but even worse is the fact that I can't see us ever doing it again.
Even more depressing is the ever increasing gap between the old firm and the rest of us that's making even the cups so hard to win now as well . Though Craig levein has it all figured out here :rolleyes: .
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/celtic/craig-levein-on-why-celtic-and-rangers-should-leave-scottish-football-and-pay-back-ps100m-per-year-4063509

[The Modfather]

Even more depressing is the ever increasing gap between the old firm and the rest of us that's making even the cups so hard to win now as well . Though Craig levein has it all figured out here :rolleyes: .
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/celtic/craig-levein-on-why-celtic-and-rangers-should-leave-scottish-football-and-pay-back-ps100m-per-year-4063509

Craig Levein’s idea is a good one IMO. Maybe not an arbitrary figure like £100m each season, but something more like a percentage of prize money and tv deals.

Everyone wins, The Old Firm get to realise their dream of getting to the riches of English football, and we can watch how they cope mid-long term being a big fish in an even bigger pond where qualifying for Europe isn’t a given every season. Scottish football also doesn’t become more of a backwater and there’s a bigger pot more evenly spread around.

[HoboHarry]

Craig Levein’s idea is a good one IMO. Maybe not an arbitrary figure like £100m each season, but something more like a percentage of prize money and tv deals.

Everyone wins, The Old Firm get to realise their dream of getting to the riches of English football, and we can watch how they cope mid-long term being a big fish in an even bigger pond where qualifying for Europe isn’t a given every season. Scottish football also doesn’t become more of a backwater and there’s a bigger pot more evenly spread around.
The notion that Celtic and Sevco would just give up 100M each year is just fanciful. Not a chance in hell they would do that, CL must have been drunk when he came up with that belter.

[Kato]

The notion that Celtic and Sevco would just give up 100M each year is just fanciful. Not a chance in hell they would do that, CL must have been drunk when he came up with that belter.He's not drunk. Just an idiot.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

The gap is only getting wider. It's why it's unfair to compare Johnson's results against the OF to Lennon's or Stubbs' or Mowbray's.

The league is essentially a one horse race now. Celtic have won ten out of the last eleven titles. In that, they won four consecutive titled and had a season where they went unbeaten in all domestic competitions.

In the year that Rangers won the title, I think Celtic won the two cups on offer and Rangers went unbeaten in the league.

This season, with Celtic likely to earn the most in domestic prize money and then benefit from the Champions League group stages, with Rangers taking the next biggest chunk of prize money and having, at worst, Europa League money, they are only going to pull further away.

The prize money Celtic will get from the Champions League won't be far off, if not more than, our total turnover for the season.

These are demonstrably insurmountable advantages that grow exponentially year on year.

Doing nothing will kill the Scottish game eventually. There isn't even really the tiny bit of interest in a title race any more. Celtic are streets ahead of Rangers - who might, as the they did when Lennon threw the league away - get the odd title win here and there but really if Celtic want to flex their financial muscle they'll leave Rangers in their wake.

You might, at a push, get Rangers on board to restructure eventually as they face into a reality where Celtic surpass the combined achievements of old and new Rangers and leave them trailing - and this is what's happening now to them, they're waking up to the fact that they're being left behind (one of the reasons why the club itself is leaning into the sectarianism rather than fighting it, because they need a reason to stop glory hunters picking the other team).

If, and it's a big "if" the clubs can get Rangers on board then you could actually force through massive change, how the money is distributed, the size of the league, restrictions, measures to ensure competitiveness etc.

Or you hope that they both leave, but there really is no incentive for any other league that would be worth them joining taking them in.

The last big chance we have is for massive external investment either in the league in the form of a TV deal if you have a market disruptor who wants to create a league to rival the English Premier League - maybe one of these Saudi billionaires sees an opportunity to not just buy a club but to take a whole league on, sell the TV rights for billions and make their money back... Or a super wealthy individual comes in and buys a club likes Hibs and puts in a couple of hundred million to overtake Celtic.

Failing that, we pretty much have to accept that were never going to win the league and rather than getting closer each season, we're getting further away.

[bingo70]

The gap is only getting wider. It's why it's unfair to compare Johnson's results against the OF to Lennon's or Stubbs' or Mowbray's.

The league is essentially a one horse race now. Celtic have won ten out of the last eleven titles. In that, they won four consecutive titled and had a season where they went unbeaten in all domestic competitions.

In the year that Rangers won the title, I think Celtic won the two cups on offer and Rangers went unbeaten in the league.

This season, with Celtic likely to earn the most in domestic prize money and then benefit from the Champions League group stages, with Rangers taking the next biggest chunk of prize money and having, at worst, Europa League money, they are only going to pull further away.

The prize money Celtic will get from the Champions League won't be far off, if not more than, our total turnover for the season.

These are demonstrably insurmountable advantages that grow exponentially year on year.

Doing nothing will kill the Scottish game eventually. There isn't even really the tiny bit of interest in a title race any more. Celtic are streets ahead of Rangers - who might, as the they did when Lennon threw the league away - get the odd title win here and there but really if Celtic want to flex their financial muscle they'll leave Rangers in their wake.

You might, at a push, get Rangers on board to restructure eventually as they face into a reality where Celtic surpass the combined achievements of old and new Rangers and leave them trailing - and this is what's happening now to them, they're waking up to the fact that they're being left behind (one of the reasons why the club itself is leaning into the sectarianism rather than fighting it, because they need a reason to stop glory hunters picking the other team).

If, and it's a big "if" the clubs can get Rangers on board then you could actually force through massive change, how the money is distributed, the size of the league, restrictions, measures to ensure competitiveness etc.

Or you hope that they both leave, but there really is no incentive for any other league that would be worth them joining taking them in.

The last big chance we have is for massive external investment either in the league in the form of a TV deal if you have a market disruptor who wants to create a league to rival the English Premier League - maybe one of these Saudi billionaires sees an opportunity to not just buy a club but to take a whole league on, sell the TV rights for billions and make their money back... Or a super wealthy individual comes in and buys a club likes Hibs and puts in a couple of hundred million to overtake Celtic.

Failing that, we pretty much have to accept that were never going to win the league and rather than getting closer each season, we're getting further away.

Not sure if anybody follows David Stoker on Twitter but he’s a former livingston director I think and I think he’s good value on it. Anyway he’s out an interesting idea out there that sounds plausible to all parties?

https://twitter.com/davidstoker_lfc/status/1635714288726704149?s=46&t=VghJuoU_bl8ISs-zf5CmHg

[stuart-farquhar]

A tax on turnover. Then evenly distributed amongst clubs.

[matty_f]

Not sure if anybody follows David Stoker on Twitter but he’s a former livingston director I think and I think he’s good value on it. Anyway he’s out an interesting idea out there that sounds plausible to all parties?

https://twitter.com/davidstoker_lfc/status/1635714288726704149?s=46&t=VghJuoU_bl8ISs-zf5CmHg

I like the idea, but 1/12th of 5% of all the gate receipts isn't going to change anything significantly, it would give a lift to the sides outside the OF but for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen, they lose 5% off their ticket revenue to get 1/12tb of the pot back - I'd need to see figures but I don't think that's a significant jump in income for them.

Hearts are getting something like £7m a season in donations at the moment and they're still miles off Rangers and Celtic. It might close the financial gap between St Johnstone and Hibs and tighten up an already competitive bottom 10 in the league, but it won't do anything to the dominance at the top, imho.

[OsiersHibs]

The gap is only getting wider. It's why it's unfair to compare Johnson's results against the OF to Lennon's or Stubbs' or Mowbray's.

The league is essentially a one horse race now. Celtic have won ten out of the last eleven titles. In that, they won four consecutive titled and had a season where they went unbeaten in all domestic competitions.

In the year that Rangers won the title, I think Celtic won the two cups on offer and Rangers went unbeaten in the league.

This season, with Celtic likely to earn the most in domestic prize money and then benefit from the Champions League group stages, with Rangers taking the next biggest chunk of prize money and having, at worst, Europa League money, they are only going to pull further away.

The prize money Celtic will get from the Champions League won't be far off, if not more than, our total turnover for the season.

These are demonstrably insurmountable advantages that grow exponentially year on year.

Doing nothing will kill the Scottish game eventually. There isn't even really the tiny bit of interest in a title race any more. Celtic are streets ahead of Rangers - who might, as the they did when Lennon threw the league away - get the odd title win here and there but really if Celtic want to flex their financial muscle they'll leave Rangers in their wake.

You might, at a push, get Rangers on board to restructure eventually as they face into a reality where Celtic surpass the combined achievements of old and new Rangers and leave them trailing - and this is what's happening now to them, they're waking up to the fact that they're being left behind (one of the reasons why the club itself is leaning into the sectarianism rather than fighting it, because they need a reason to stop glory hunters picking the other team).

If, and it's a big "if" the clubs can get Rangers on board then you could actually force through massive change, how the money is distributed, the size of the league, restrictions, measures to ensure competitiveness etc.

Or you hope that they both leave, but there really is no incentive for any other league that would be worth them joining taking them in.

The last big chance we have is for massive external investment either in the league in the form of a TV deal if you have a market disruptor who wants to create a league to rival the English Premier League - maybe one of these Saudi billionaires sees an opportunity to not just buy a club but to take a whole league on, sell the TV rights for billions and make their money back... Or a super wealthy individual comes in and buys a club likes Hibs and puts in a couple of hundred million to overtake Celtic.

Failing that, we pretty much have to accept that were never going to win the league and rather than getting closer each season, we're getting further away.

Call the Old Firms bluff and join EFL League 2. Hibs are historically bigger than Brentford Brighton Bournemouth. We've won the Scottish Cup now, the current setup is totally pointless and only geared towards two clubs. If there is no change, what is really the point starting the season in a league you know you can't win.

[CropleyWasGod]

Call the Old Firms bluff and join EFL League 2. Hibs are historically bigger than Brentford Brighton Bournemouth. We've won the Scottish Cup now, the current setup is totally pointless and only geared towards two clubs. If there is no change, what is really the point starting the season in a league you know you can't win.

Pyramid system would stop that happening. :greengrin

[bingo70]

I like the idea, but 1/12th of 5% of all the gate receipts isn't going to change anything significantly, it would give a lift to the sides outside the OF but for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen, they lose 5% off their ticket revenue to get 1/12tb of the pot back - I'd need to see figures but I don't think that's a significant jump in income for them.

Hearts are getting something like £7m a season in donations at the moment and they're still miles off Rangers and Celtic. It might close the financial gap between St Johnstone and Hibs and tighten up an already competitive bottom 10 in the league, but it won't do anything to the dominance at the top, imho.

Cheers Matty, fair response, I just thought it was an interesting concept I hadn’t heard suggested previously.

Sure he was a director of Livingston so it makes sense if he was looking at it from an angle of improving a club like them.

Back to the drawing board 😂

[OsiersHibs]

Pyramid system would stop that happening. :greengrin

Join the English pyramid then. Would be better than being part of SPFL. Got to look forward. Where will Hibs be in 10 years time? What will Scottish Football look like in 10 years time?

[WhileTheChief..]

Give the old firm 2 points for a win and the rest of us 4.

Someone else can do the math and see if it would work. Adjust accordingly :greengrin

[Eyrie]

Dock the Ugly Sisters 3 points each time there is any sectarian singing by their fans.

Within a year we won't have a problem.

[PHeffernan]

Call the Old Firms bluff and join EFL League 2. Hibs are historically bigger than Brentford Brighton Bournemouth. We've won the Scottish Cup now, the current setup is totally pointless and only geared towards two clubs. If there is no change, what is really the point starting the season in a league you know you can't win.

A couple of points relative to your post:
EFL2 is not the bottom of the English football pyramid.
As per the OF the English clubs won't want us in their pyramid either.

[matty_f]

I wonder whether there actually is a workable solution to the situation?

The biggest issue is the current voting system, as the biggest two clubs have no incentive to change, there's an immediate blocker. The status quo absolutely suits them (for now), but it may become untenable for Rangers - particularly if/when we lose the second Champions League place (ironically, it would secure Rangers' competitiveness if the likes of us and Hearts were able to challenge meaningfully in Europe instead of being canon fodder).

It may take something like moving to the MSL model, a closed shop but run with the interests of the league in mind. Can you see that happening? Maybe at some point, but not any time soon.

Something like the a Atlantic League is unlikely to capture a big enough interest to generate the sort of money that the CL teams earn, so that's probably not the answer.

What other options are there?

[NAE NOOKIE]

I wonder whether there actually is a workable solution to the situation?

The biggest issue is the current voting system, as the biggest two clubs have no incentive to change, there's an immediate blocker. The status quo absolutely suits them (for now), but it may become untenable for Rangers - particularly if/when we lose the second Champions League place (ironically, it would secure Rangers' competitiveness if the likes of us and Hearts were able to challenge meaningfully in Europe instead of being canon fodder).

It may take something like moving to the MSL model, a closed shop but run with the interests of the league in mind. Can you see that happening? Maybe at some point, but not any time soon.

Something like the a Atlantic League is unlikely to capture a big enough interest to generate the sort of money that the CL teams earn, so that's probably not the answer.

What other options are there?

See my original post mate :greengrin

[matty_f]

See my original post mate :greengrin

Celtic don't get a seat at that table - there was already the much criticised Super League proposal and neither of the Glasgow sides were even a consideration for it.

I don't see why English clubs would vote them into their league. For the majority of them, admitting Rangers and Celtic would push their own club down the pecking order.

I don't know if there are legal ramifications if the non-OF clubs decided to breakaway. Would they have a case for restriction of trade or something along those lines?

[Pretty Boy]

Ian Maxwell is telling today that Scottish football is in great shape so not sure why this thread even exists.

I've not been this reassured since Comical Ali told me there were no tanks in Baghdad.

[blackpoolhibs]

What i find daft, is i find myself saying the football is pish, the game is rigged and the referee's are bent.

I'm also so fed up with both bigots behaviour, and the yelow bellied authorities and our own club too in their failure to say and do anything about it.

Yet after all that, crowds are up and the club are raking in more money than ever through supporters and sponsorship, hell i've even bought another season ticket.

WHY?

[bingo70]

What i find daft, is i find myself saying the football is pish, the game is rigged and the referee's are bent.

I'm also so fed up with both bigots behaviour, and the yelow bellied authorities and our own club too in their failure to say and do anything about it.

Yet after all that, crowds are up and the club are raking in more money than ever through supporters and sponsorship, hell i've even bought another season ticket.

WHY?

Not sure if the points are linked but I think people are moving away from top level football as it’s all gone a bit plastic and touristy IMO. I think there is something honest and really appealing about Scottish football just now. It’s just a shame those ********s in Glasgow are ruining it.

I watched the Falkirk Ayr game the other night and thoroughly enjoyed it. Watched the Man City game last night and I was bored out my mind, turned it off around half time.

Not sure if it was on this thread but someone said that games away to the old
Firm now feel like international break weekends and it’s spot on, just feels like a waste of time. I really look forward to and enjoy our games against the other sides in the league now, well maybe not the Hearts matches but let’s not get into them.

Sorry, this post is turning into a bit of a brain fart but I like the idea of the SPFL having its own subscription media channel, £10 a month or something and you get live spfl matches, potentially of your choice as well as exclusive highlights, news etc….. these dodgy fire sticks aren’t going anywhere so we need to find an affordable way of competing with them. I’d rather pay a small amount legally and get a good reliable service than rely on the firestick which may drop out or be on a delay. It won’t affect attendances the way it maybe used to before firesticks. I’m not saying this would solve all the problems but I can’t help but think the current TV deal and how money is distributed is causing a lot of the problems.

[DH1875]

What i find daft, is i find myself saying the football is pish, the game is rigged and the referee's are bent.

I'm also so fed up with both bigots behaviour, and the yelow bellied authorities and our own club too in their failure to say and do anything about it.

Yet after all that, crowds are up and the club are raking in more money than ever through supporters and sponsorship, hell i've even bought another season ticket.

WHY?

Because its what we do.

Blackpool had over 10k fans at their game last night on a night when Man City were at home in the Champions league. See if Man Utd, City and Liverpool all ducked off to a super league, would it really make much of a difference to Blackpool? Their not all of a sudden gonna be challenging for the Premier league are they.

[Smartie]

Because its what we do.

Blackpool had over 10k fans at their game last night on a night when Man City were at home in the Champions league. See if Man Utd, City and Liverpool all ducked off to a super league, would it really make much of a difference to Blackpool? Their not all of a sudden gonna be challenging for the Premier league are they.

As it stands, Fulham would probably be 2 or 3 places away from being challengers for the Premier League without that big 3.

If they could get there then why not Blackpool?

Probably because in a league less distorted by tv cash then you'd see the clubs with the big attendances come to the fore, I suppose.

[matty_f]

Not sure if the points are linked but I think people are moving away from top level football as it’s all gone a bit plastic and touristy IMO. I think there is something honest and really appealing about Scottish football just now. It’s just a shame those ********s in Glasgow are ruining it.

I watched the Falkirk Ayr game the other night and thoroughly enjoyed it. Watched the Man City game last night and I was bored out my mind, turned it off around half time.

Not sure if it was on this thread but someone said that games away to the old
Firm now feel like international break weekends and it’s spot on, just feels like a waste of time. I really look forward to and enjoy our games against the other sides in the league now, well maybe not the Hearts matches but let’s not get into them.

Sorry, this post is turning into a bit of a brain fart but I like the idea of the SPFL having its own subscription media channel, £10 a month or something and you get live spfl matches, potentially of your choice as well as exclusive highlights, news etc….. these dodgy fire sticks aren’t going anywhere so we need to find an affordable way of competing with them. I’d rather pay a small amount legally and get a good reliable service than rely on the firestick which may drop out or be on a delay. It won’t affect attendances the way it maybe used to before firesticks. I’m not saying this would solve all the problems but I can’t help but think the current TV deal and how money is distributed is causing a lot of the problems.

The PPV is an interesting one.

I don't think there's the potential to generate the value that Sky brings but there's scope to give everyone what they want and use PPV to suppliment that income.

If everyone can accept that commercial broadcasters are only interested in Rangers and Celtic, then make the TV deal reflect that. Do away with the maximum number of times the cameras can be at each ground and just sell Sky the rights to every away Rangers and Celtic fixture and they can buy in Edinburgh derbies or selected other "big" fixtures on top of that.

Allow every club to sell their games on PPV worldwide and pool a percentage of that revenue for distribution amongst the clubs, giving clubs the option to opt out if they don't want to sell their games, but if they do then they also forfeit their cut of the revenue.

I think the issue with this approach is that while it potentially increases revenue, it is still relative to the club's support, so our income would rise more than St Mirren's, but less than Rangers and Celtic, so in practice it only really increased the wealth gap rather than addressing it.

You could scale it so that Champions League participation means you contribute a far greater percentage of your TV money but that might disincentivise the Old Firm from selling PPV.

[bingo70]

The PPV is an interesting one.

I don't think there's the potential to generate the value that Sky brings but there's scope to give everyone what they want and use PPV to suppliment that income.

If everyone can accept that commercial broadcasters are only interested in Rangers and Celtic, then make the TV deal reflect that. Do away with the maximum number of times the cameras can be at each ground and just sell Sky the rights to every away Rangers and Celtic fixture and they can buy in Edinburgh derbies or selected other "big" fixtures on top of that.

Allow every club to sell their games on PPV worldwide and pool a percentage of that revenue for distribution amongst the clubs, giving clubs the option to opt out if they don't want to sell their games, but if they do then they also forfeit their cut of the revenue.

I think the issue with this approach is that while it potentially increases revenue, it is still relative to the club's support, so our income would rise more than St Mirren's, but less than Rangers and Celtic, so in practice it only really increased the wealth gap rather than addressing it.

You could scale it so that Champions League participation means you contribute a far greater percentage of your TV money but that might disincentivise the Old Firm from selling PPV.

Suppose it all comes back to the point though that Rangers and Celtic don’t want a fairer distribution of cash and while that is the case, all the ideas on this thread are just not going to happen. The only way change can happen is if there’s an acceptance from them that there’s an issue and that’s not going to happen. They don’t want to give up any of their money to give to other teams to make their games harder.

We need them to get to **** and any other potential solution is just going to be rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

[HFC17]

Not sure if the points are linked but I think people are moving away from top level football as it’s all gone a bit plastic and touristy IMO. I think there is something honest and really appealing about Scottish football just now. It’s just a shame those ********s in Glasgow are ruining it.

I watched the Falkirk Ayr game the other night and thoroughly enjoyed it. Watched the Man City game last night and I was bored out my mind, turned it off around half time.

Not sure if it was on this thread but someone said that games away to the old
Firm now feel like international break weekends and it’s spot on, just feels like a waste of time. I really look forward to and enjoy our games against the other sides in the league now, well maybe not the Hearts matches but let’s not get into them.

Sorry, this post is turning into a bit of a brain fart but I like the idea of the SPFL having its own subscription media channel, £10 a month or something and you get live spfl matches, potentially of your choice as well as exclusive highlights, news etc….. these dodgy fire sticks aren’t going anywhere so we need to find an affordable way of competing with them. I’d rather pay a small amount legally and get a good reliable service than rely on the firestick which may drop out or be on a delay. It won’t affect attendances the way it maybe used to before firesticks. I’m not saying this would solve all the problems but I can’t help but think the current TV deal and how money is distributed is causing a lot of the problems.

The PPV idea is one I have liked for a while and think it could be very successful if implemented correctly.

[bingo70]

The PPV idea is one I have liked for a while and think it could be very successful if implemented correctly.

Yeah, I think there has to be a workable model there and I think that’s the way broadcasting deals will go in the future. You are already seeing Amazon Prime dipping their toe in the water with live games that you get to pick.

I don’t know the ins and outs of how it would work but the income wouldn’t have to solely come from Scottish football fans buying subscriptions. There would be advertising income that could come from it too, for old firm games in particular I’d have thought that would be quite significant. Appreciate if they leave then advertising revenue wouldn’t be worth much though.

I think we’ve just signed a new TV deal havent we? If so this isn’t going to happen any time soon but with the rise in popularity of fire sticks, I would have thought that will impact future TV deals.

[HFC17]

Yeah, I think there has to be a workable model there and I think that’s the way broadcasting deals will go in the future. You are already seeing Amazon Prime dipping their toe in the water with live games that you get to pick.

I don’t know the ins and outs of how it would work but the income wouldn’t have to solely come from Scottish football fans buying subscriptions. There would be advertising income that could come from it too, for old firm games in particular I’d have thought that would be quite significant. Appreciate if they leave then advertising revenue wouldn’t be worth much though.

I think we’ve just signed a new TV deal havent we? If so this isn’t going to happen any time soon but with the rise in popularity of fire sticks, I would have thought that will impact future TV deals.

The PPV model could also include different events or shows put on during the week to give better value to a monthly subscription.

There are already examples of this in the US with with NFL TV and NBA League Pass which seems to be very successful albeit there is little competition to the product they produce.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Celtic don't get a seat at that table - there was already the much criticised Super League proposal and neither of the Glasgow sides were even a consideration for it.

I don't see why English clubs would vote them into their league. For the majority of them, admitting Rangers and Celtic would push their own club down the pecking order.

I don't know if there are legal ramifications if the non-OF clubs decided to breakaway. Would they have a case for restriction of trade or something along those lines?

I can't see how to be honest. If 40 football clubs decide to resign from the league they are in and form a new league it is surely up to them who is or isn't allowed to join that league. For decades admission to the Scottish league was through a vote and if it didn't go your way you were out, as Gala Fairydean and a number of other clubs over the years will testify .... I don't think there has been any changes to the legalities that would prevent that being applied to a new league system.

On a different but related subject:

There's a poll on a Facebook site for Scottish football fans without the Old Firm addressing the issue of a breakaway. The poll has been up for 24 hours and so far out of over 600 respondents over 95% have stated they would support a breakaway league and continue to support their teams in it. The appetite is there for this ... the clubs might not be keen, but it seems the fans certainly are.

Even if the clubs got together to discuss this, without committing to doing it, it would be a serious shot across the bows of the current system, which clearly isn't working if you are trying to pretend you have a football competition.

[nonshinyfinish]

There's a poll on a Facebook site for Scottish football fans without the Old Firm addressing the issue of a breakaway. The poll has been up for 24 hours and so far out of over 600 respondents over 95% have stated they would support a breakaway league and continue to support their teams in it. The appetite is there for this ... the clubs might not be keen, but it seems the fans certainly are.

Have I understood that right – it's a Facebook group whose subject is Scottish football without the OF? If so I think there's some serious sampling bias going on there.

[Smartie]

I'm drifting from my interest in football but I reckon that if we got shot of Rangers and Celtic, my interest would shoot right back up again.

As it stands, I don't think it's something I'm going to get my kids into.

[matty_f]

I can't see how to be honest. If 40 football clubs decide to resign from the league they are in and form a new league it is surely up to them who is or isn't allowed to join that league. For decades admission to the Scottish league was through a vote and if it didn't go your way you were out, as Gala Fairydean and a number of other clubs over the years will testify .... I don't think there has been any changes to the legalities that would prevent that being applied to a new league system.

On a different but related subject:

There's a poll on a Facebook site for Scottish football fans without the Old Firm addressing the issue of a breakaway. The poll has been up for 24 hours and so far out of over 600 respondents over 95% have stated they would support a breakaway league and continue to support their teams in it. The appetite is there for this ... the clubs might not be keen, but it seems the fans certainly are.

Even if the clubs got together to discuss this, without committing to doing it, it would be a serious shot across the bows of the current system, which clearly isn't working if you are trying to pretend you have a football competition.

I don't know either, was just thinking aloud really. If Rangers and Celtic were left without a league to play in they'd need to be accommodated in one of the existing leagues - in which case you'd probably diminish the marketability of b the new league because guess who the broadcasters would want to cover?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Have I understood that right – it's a Facebook group whose subject is Scottish football without the OF? If so I think there's some serious sampling bias going on there.

No mate ... It's a long running site set up by and for fans of teams outwith the Uglies to basically slag each others teams off without 'fans' of the Glasgow gruesome twosome getting involved with their sectarian pish. The full title of the page is 'Scottish football banter without the old firm fans' it is a closed group which according to it's profile has over 18,000 members.

So far the poll has 731 votes in favour of a breakaway league without the Ugly sisters and 10 votes against :greengrin

[Just_Jimmy]

What i find daft, is i find myself saying the football is pish, the game is rigged and the referee's are bent.

I'm also so fed up with both bigots behaviour, and the yelow bellied authorities and our own club too in their failure to say and do anything about it.

Yet after all that, crowds are up and the club are raking in more money than ever through supporters and sponsorship, hell i've even bought another season ticket.

WHY?I could have written that post apart for the last part.

I don't have a season ticket, I've been to one hibs game this season.

I have no interest in anything scottish football outside Hibs.

The game is bent. I log in here out of habit more than anything these days. I'm not all that arsed about football in general anymore. It's burst. I don't see the point in chucking money at something when you have absolutely no chance of winning, I don't mean bad teams, I mean a level playing field. 3rd place isn't an achievement, it's 2nd place loser.

It needs a radical overhaul and it won't come because it's bent.

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