AGM Tuesday 7th March

[Ringothedog]

The AGM is being held next week. Club made an operating loss of £3.5m but after player trading and tax credits it reduced to £1.5m

[007]

The AGM is being held next week. Club made an operating loss of £3.5m but after player trading and tax credits it reduced to £1.5m

Correct me if I'm wrong but Covid would still have impacted. Period of accounts will be 1.7.21 to 30.6.22.

[Ringothedog]

Correct me if I'm wrong but Covid would still have impacted. Period of accounts will be 1.7.21 to 30.6.22.

Yes for the period up to 30.06.22.

[Spike Mandela]

Sems a large loss despite being mitigated by player sales. Is covid the main factor in these results?

[Gloucester Hibs]

Does seem a substantial loss, also considering there were I think 3 Hampden visits during that financial year. Covid would’ve still been a factor, can’t remember exactly when we were back to playing at full capacity.

[Iain G]

The AGM is being held next week. Club made an operating loss of £3.5m but after player trading and tax credits it reduced to £1.5m

Will this include the money spent on refurbishing the hospitality?

And Boyle re-signing?

[Bobby Moore]

Severance packages for 2 management teams and bottom 6 finish cited as contributory factors.
cash at bank down from £6.95m to £5.2m.

[Pretty Boy]

Doesn't make great reading but then I'm no accountant so possibly not as bad as the headline figures suggest.

[Ringothedog]

First page

[Ringothedog]

2nd page

[bingo70]

Thought there had to be 14 days notice provided of an AGM?

Was Tuesday not also the day of Ron’s Memorial Service or have I got mixed up?

[B.H.F.C]

Will this include the money spent on refurbishing the hospitality?

And Boyle re-signing?

Boyle didn’t sign until the August.

Also won’t include the Doig money.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm a bit surprised that the statutory period of notice hasn't been given.

It might upset some.

[HFC93]

I presume these results don't include Josh Doig's fee given he moved in July 2022?

[bingo70]

I'm a bit surprised that the statutory period of notice hasn't been given.

It might upset some.

Presumably they are trying to do it while the Gordon family are in the country for his memorial service?

[CropleyWasGod]

Presumably they are trying to do it while the Gordon family are in the country for his memorial service?

That makes sense.

Most people won't be bothered, I'm sure.

[wandering_hibee]

The letter also says that the meeting will be to conduct the formal business of the company only - so only approving the accounts and any other tabled business, I suspect no questions to the board or the staff about any other matters, it will be short and sweet.

[bingo70]

The letter also says that the meeting will be to conduct the formal business of the company only - so only approving the accounts and any other tabled business, I suspect no questions to the board or the staff about any other matters, it will be short and sweet.

When the news broke of Ron’s passing, did BK not suggest more would be said re the future of the club at the AGM?

I can’t remember the exact wording but sure there was some reference to it.

[wandering_hibee]

When the news broke of Ron’s passing, did BK not suggest more would be said re the future of the club at the AGM?

I can’t remember the exact wording but sure there was some reference to it.

All I can is this "As part of that determination, we will hold our AGM in early March. There will be no further comment from the Club or family at this time.”

So an inference but nothing explicit about providing more information.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The letter also says that the meeting will be to conduct the formal business of the company only - so only approving the accounts and any other tabled business, I suspect no questions to the board or the staff about any other matters, it will be short and sweet.

Just opened my letter. Yup that's what it says, so no questions about when the helipad will be built or why we seem to have so many injuries will be considered by the looks of it. I was thinking of going, but just to see the accounts ratified and all that dry stuff hardly makes it worthwhile ... especially as it's the day before we play at home which would mean me driving to Edinburgh and back on consecutive evenings.

If I do have one question it would be over Hibs sourcing loans from it's parent company Bydand Sports. It's not an unusual thing for a club to do, but when we sourced loans from STF they were interest free IIRC, I presume this loan isn't and if that's the case this is where my bum starts to get a wee bit squeaky.
I get it if the owners cant. or don't want to, lavish free money on the club, but I also don't want to see the club end up in hock to a parent company owned by them which brings about the prospect that if they decide to walk away the club they leave behind ends up owing them a huge debt which can only be repaid by selling off the club's assets ..... I'm not suggesting that's what will happen, but we wouldn't be the first club to end up in real bother over just such a scenario ... with the club bankrupt and the owners wealthier than when they came in.

It might seem like scaremoungering .... but it's better to ask these questions now than wait until there's 700 die hards at a meeting in Leith town hall trying to revive the club and asking 'how did we let it get to this?'

[Bostonhibby]

Just opened my letter. Yup that's what it says, so no questions about when the helipad will be built or why we seem to have so many injuries will be considered by the looks of it. I was thinking of going, but just to see the accounts ratified and all that dry stuff hardly makes it worthwhile ... especially as it's the day before we play at home which would mean me driving to Edinburgh and back on consecutive evenings.

If I do have one question it would be over Hibs sourcing loans from it's parent company Bydand Sports. It's not an unusual thing for a club to do, but when we sourced loans from STF they were interest free IIRC, I presume this loan isn't and if that's the case this is where my bum starts to get a wee bit squeaky.
I get it if the owners cant. or don't want to, lavish free money on the club, but I also don't want to see the club end up in hock to a parent company owned by them which brings about the prospect that if they decide to walk away the club they leave behind ends up owing them a huge debt which can only be repaid by selling off the club's assets ..... I'm not suggesting that's what will happen, but we wouldn't be the first club to end up in real bother over just such a scenario ... with the club bankrupt and the owners wealthier than when they came in.

It might seem like scaremoungering .... but it's better to ask these questions now than wait until there's 700 die hards at a meeting in Leith town hall trying to revive the club and asking 'how did we let it get to this?'My letter says questions on the annual accounts can be emailed in by 6th March so your entirely reasonable question might meet that criteria?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[NAE NOOKIE]

My letter says questions on the annual accounts can be emailed in by 6th March so your entirely reasonable question might meet that criteria?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

I might just do that mate. I'm not blind to the fact that in the circumstances raising a concern like that could be viewed as slightly distasteful in view of the current circumstances and the Gordon's stated aim of continuing what Ron started and their determination to make the club a success.

But in the end none of us know these folk personally, we do not know for sure that what they say now, even if it is utterly sincere, will still be the attitude a year from now and in the end there's a name for folk who bury their heads in the sand and avoid asking unpopular but necessary questions surrounding the financing and long term future of their clubs ... that name is 'Jambos' and we all know how that can pan out.

[Jack]

If I do have one question it would be over Hibs sourcing loans from it's parent company Bydand Sports. It's not an unusual thing for a club to do, but when we sourced loans from STF they were interest free IIRC, I presume this loan isn't and if that's the case this is where my bum starts to get a wee bit squeaky.

I have the same concerns.

There's been mention of a loan of a couple of million from the parent company but no mention of the couple of million interest free loan from the Scottish Government around covid that was used for the hospitality refurbishment.

Is this the same loan working it's way through the company structure?

I've probably got it all wrong 2+2=0 😅

[CropleyWasGod]

I have the same concerns.

There's been mention of a loan of a couple of million from the parent company but no mention of the couple of million interest free loan from the Scottish Government around covid that was used for the hospitality refurbishment.

Is this the same loan working it's way through the company structure?

I've probably got it all wrong 2+2=0 ��

If you're a shareholder, you can ask for a copy of the accounts before the AGM. They should give greater clarity on the loans situation. If you're not, they will be on the website after the AGM.

(as a side note, it's a bit weird having to ask for the accounts that we have to vote on next week; I would have expected them to be made immediately available to all shareholders).

[ancient hibee]

Just opened my letter. Yup that's what it says, so no questions about when the helipad will be built or why we seem to have so many injuries will be considered by the looks of it. I was thinking of going, but just to see the accounts ratified and all that dry stuff hardly makes it worthwhile ... especially as it's the day before we play at home which would mean me driving to Edinburgh and back on consecutive evenings.

If I do have one question it would be over Hibs sourcing loans from it's parent company Bydand Sports. It's not an unusual thing for a club to do, but when we sourced loans from STF they were interest free IIRC, I presume this loan isn't and if that's the case this is where my bum starts to get a wee bit squeaky.
I get it if the owners cant. or don't want to, lavish free money on the club, but I also don't want to see the club end up in hock to a parent company owned by them which brings about the prospect that if they decide to walk away the club they leave behind ends up owing them a huge debt which can only be repaid by selling off the club's assets ..... I'm not suggesting that's what will happen, but we wouldn't be the first club to end up in real bother over just such a scenario ... with the club bankrupt and the owners wealthier than when they came in.

It might seem like scaremoungering .... but it's better to ask these questions now than wait until there's 700 die hards at a meeting in Leith town hall trying to revive the club and asking 'how did we let it get to this?'


Bydand is the owner of the club therefore Bydand has loaned money to a company which is mainly Bydand. As the major shareholder Bydand already in effect owns the assets already.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Bydand is the owner of the club therefore Bydand has loaned money to a company which is mainly Bydand. As the major shareholder Bydand already in effect owns the assets already.

So we owe it to ourselves. Perfect.

[Jack]

If you're a shareholder, you can ask for a copy of the accounts before the AGM. They should give greater clarity on the loans situation. If you're not, they will be on the website after the AGM.

(as a side note, it's a bit weird having to ask for the accounts that we have to vote on next week; I would have expected them to be made immediately available to all shareholders).

If I acquired a copy of the accounts I'd only have to send them to you to translate 😆

[ancient hibee]

So we owe it to ourselves. Perfect.

To coin a phrase:greengrin.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Bydand is the owner of the club therefore Bydand has loaned money to a company which is mainly Bydand. As the major shareholder Bydand already in effect owns the assets already.

I'm no expert mate, but Bydand is owned by the Gordons and that company owns Hibs is how it works as far as I know.

The club 'Hibs' can go to the parent company 'Bydand' for a loan, but the club can be asked to pay interest on that loan and not only that, if it defaults on the loan the parent company can liquidate Hibs in order to recoup the money Hibs owe it, which in theory mean Bydand could wind Hibs up in order to recoup the initial sum Bydand ..... IE Ron Gordon .... paid for the club, the loan amount outstanding and any money owed to Bydand in interest on the loans.

It basically means that by setting up a company to buy the club it separates the Gordon family from any debts or liabilities the club may accrue, but as owners of Bydand also giving them the power to wind up the club and sell off it's assets in order to recoup any debts owed to the parent company. I stand to be corrected on all or any of this, but AFAIK that is how it works and how several 'owners' have bought a club seen it fail utterly and yet somehow walked away considerably better off personally.

In a way in the same ball park as how the Glazers bought Man United. Borrowed 900 million to buy it, transferred that debt to the club putting it 900 million in debt, then sell the club plus whatever part of the initial debt is still outstanding to a new owner for 5 billion .... walk away with a profit of 4 billion quid without doing anything to really earn it and never being personally liable for that initial debt at any point.

As I said ... more than happy ... in fact hope to be .... corrected by folk on here with far more knowledge of business than I have.

[Eyrie]

I'm no expert mate, but Bydand is owned by the Gordons and that company owns Hibs is how it works as far as I know.

The club 'Hibs' can go to the parent company 'Bydand' for a loan, but the club can be asked to pay interest on that loan and not only that, if it defaults on the loan the parent company can liquidate Hibs in order to recoup the money Hibs owe it, which in theory mean Bydand could wind Hibs up in order to recoup the initial sum Bydand ..... IE Ron Gordon .... paid for the club, the loan amount outstanding and any money owed to Bydand in interest on the loans.

It basically means that by setting up a company to buy the club it separates the Gordon family from any debts or liabilities the club may accrue, but as owners of Bydand also giving them the power to wind up the club and sell off it's assets in order to recoup any debts owed to the parent company. I stand to be corrected on all or any of this, but AFAIK that is how it works and how several 'owners' have bought a club seen it fail utterly and yet somehow walked away considerably better off personally.

In a way in the same ball park as how the Glazers bought Man United. Borrowed 900 million to buy it, transferred that debt to the club putting it 900 million in debt, then sell the club plus whatever part of the initial debt is still outstanding to a new owner for 5 billion .... walk away with a profit of 4 billion quid without doing anything to really earn it and never being personally liable for that initial debt at any point.

As I said ... more than happy ... in fact hope to be .... corrected by folk on here with far more knowledge of business than I have.

Surely that could apply to any loan from any lender though?

[andrew70]

Who is it we contact to say about not receiving the accounts? I don’t think I’ve updated my new address.

[offshorehibby]

Who is it we contact to say about not receiving the accounts? I don’t think I’ve updated my new address.

All details were in the letter sent out a couple of days ago.

[Power]

Who is it we contact to say about not receiving the accounts? I don’t think I’ve updated my new address.

[email protected] is the correct email address to update your address for shareholding notification and request a copy of the annual accounts ✅

[Ringothedog]

All details were in the letter sent out a couple of days ago.

If his address held by Hibs is wrong there is a good chance he did not receive the letter 😉

[overdrive]

All details were in the letter sent out a couple of days ago.

If he's not updated his address he wouldn't have got the letter.


Who is it we contact to say about not receiving the accounts? I don’t think I’ve updated my new address.

Nobody has received accounts you have to request them. Email [email protected] to request them. You will need to provide either your share certificate number or address (so your old one in this case) as proof you are a shareholder.

[andrew70]

Thanks guys I will email now.

[ancient hibee]

I'm no expert mate, but Bydand is owned by the Gordons and that company owns Hibs is how it works as far as I know.

The club 'Hibs' can go to the parent company 'Bydand' for a loan, but the club can be asked to pay interest on that loan and not only that, if it defaults on the loan the parent company can liquidate Hibs in order to recoup the money Hibs owe it, which in theory mean Bydand could wind Hibs up in order to recoup the initial sum Bydand ..... IE Ron Gordon .... paid for the club, the loan amount outstanding and any money owed to Bydand in interest on the loans.

It basically means that by setting up a company to buy the club it separates the Gordon family from any debts or liabilities the club may accrue, but as owners of Bydand also giving them the power to wind up the club and sell off it's assets in order to recoup any debts owed to the parent company. I stand to be corrected on all or any of this, but AFAIK that is how it works and how several 'owners' have bought a club seen it fail utterly and yet somehow walked away considerably better off personally.

In a way in the same ball park as how the Glazers bought Man United. Borrowed 900 million to buy it, transferred that debt to the club putting it 900 million in debt, then sell the club plus whatever part of the initial debt is still outstanding to a new owner for 5 billion .... walk away with a profit of 4 billion quid without doing anything to really earn it and never being personally liable for that initial debt at any point.

As I said ... more than happy ... in fact hope to be .... corrected by folk on here with far more knowledge of business than I have.
Default to any lender and that is liable to happen.

[offshorehibby]

:idiot: Realised my balls up after i'd posted:agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

I've had a quick loook at the accounts, and these are the main things that I noticed.

Most importantly, the auditors need a proof-reader :greengrin They have mis-spelt the names of the main sponsor, and the holding company. Sack them.

The wage/turnover ratio is 71%. Although this is lower than last year, it is much higher than the target of 60%.

Energy costs were up 240%

The auditors were changed. Reduced the audit fee from £23k to £17k.

Ron took no salary.

Highest paid director was BK, who had a salary of £302k, plus pension contributions of £23k.

We received a tax repayment of £57k under the R&D Tax Credit scheme. I have no idea what that would be for :confused:

We spent £3m on capital improvements, with a further £1m contracted for in the current year.

The Scottish Government loan is unchanged at £1.4m, and is interest free.

The Bydand loan is £1.9m. I can't see the terms of that, eg repayment period and interest rate. I have emailed to ask that, as well as the R&D thing.

[nonshinyfinish]

Most importantly, the auditors need a proof-reader :greengrin They have mis-spelt the names of the main sponsor, and the holding company. Sack them.

…

The auditors were changed. Reduced the audit fee from £23k to £17k.

I'd happily proof-read the accounts if it pays £6k.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Default to any lender and that is liable to happen.

I get that mate, but it's not what we are talking about here. The question is over whether the owners could see the club go tits up and still walk away without losing a penny.

Bydand sports has no assets and doesn't trade as far as I know, it is simply a vehicle set up by the Gordon family to buy Hibernian FC. Ipso facto if it is lending money to Hibs it is purely a conduit through which the Gordon family lend their own money to Hibernian. If Hibs were to default on a loan to it and Bydand demanded sale of the club's assets to recoup that money, including interest, that money would by definition go into the pockets of the Gordons.

So once again I still need to be convinced that it isn't the case that the Gordon family could very easily make a dugs dinner of running this club and yet walk away better off than when they bought it leaving nothing but ashes behind them. As I said, I am not trying to be disrespectful to them, especially at this time, but I love my fitba club and anything which could even potentially put it's good health in danger is of concern to me.

As far as I can see the possibility, no matter how remote, remains on the table that if the Gordons wanted out and were unable to find a buyer at the price they want they could sell the land HTC and Easter Road stand on and very easily recoup the money they had spent and then some.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

Decent salary for BK

[CropleyWasGod]

I get that mate, but it's not what we are talking about here. The question is over whether the owners could see the club go tits up and still walk away without losing a penny.

Bydand sports has no assets and doesn't trade as far as I know, it is simply a vehicle set up by the Gordon family to buy Hibernian FC. Ipso facto if it is lending money to Hibs it is purely a conduit through which the Gordon family lend their own money to Hibernian. If Hibs were to default on a loan to it and Bydand demanded sale of the club's assets to recoup that money, including interest, that money would by definition go into the pockets of the Gordons.

So once again I still need to be convinced that it isn't the case that the Gordon family could very easily make a dugs dinner of running this club and yet walk away better off than when they bought it leaving nothing but ashes behind them. As I said, I am not trying to be disrespectful to them, especially at this time, but I love my fitba club and anything which could even potentially put it's good health in danger is of concern to me.

As far as I can see the possibility, no matter how remote, remains on the table that if the Gordons wanted out and were unable to find a buyer at the price they want they could sell the land HTC and Easter Road stand on and very easily recoup the money they had spent and then some.

In that scenario, the cash from the sale of those properties would remain in the company, after the (current) loan of £2m from Bydand and the £1.4 from the SG were repaid. It would then need a 75% vote to wind the company up, and for the cash to be distributed among the shareholders. The family currently only have 67%.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Decent salary for BK

Was thinking that myself ... can't recall Leeann being on anything like that :confused:

[NAE NOOKIE]

In that scenario, the cash from the sale of those properties would remain in the company, after the (current) loan of £2m from Bydand and the £1.4 from the SG were repaid. It would then need a 75% vote to wind the company up, and for the cash to be distributed among the shareholders. The family currently only have 67%.

Suits me then mate. Mind you, there are a few bodies on the shareholders list we know very little about which means we have little idea of whether it's love of the club or an eye to a profit somewhere down the line that motivated them. The gap between 67% and 75% isn't exactly huge.

[CropleyWasGod]

Suits me then mate. Mind you, there are a few bodies on the shareholders list we know very little about which means we have little idea of whether it's love of the club or an eye to a profit somewhere down the line that motivated them. The gap between 67% and 75% isn't exactly huge.

Yeah, they've been mentioned before. They give me a bit of anxiety, although it's also suggested that STF is in there to give us insurance.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

Was thinking that myself ... can't recall Leeann being on anything like that :confused:

Out of interest, what was the highest turnover we pulled in when Leeann was at the helm?

[CropleyWasGod]

Was thinking that myself ... can't recall Leeann being on anything like that :confused:

I suspect that a lot of it will be performance-related. Our turnover has increased substantially under him, particularly in the commercial area; that was not LD's strength.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

I suspect that a lot of it will be performance-related. Our turnover has increased substantially under him, particularly in the commercial area; that was not LD's strength.

Similar train of thought to myself

[CropleyWasGod]

Chris, the FD, has just got back to me about my queries on the accounts. Don't think I'm breaking confidentiality here.

1. the R&D tax credit is based on the studies that the club are doing on different performance plans. Apparently, credit can be claimed on that. The number will increase in future years, which is good to hear.

2. he was surprised to hear that the auditors didn't need the Bydand loan details disclosed (so am I). Happy to share the details by PM, but probably best not to share on an open forum. That said, there's nothing to be unduly concerned about :greengrin

[Tyler Durden]

Out of interest, what was the highest turnover we pulled in when Leeann was at the helm?

I believe it was £10.8m in 2019

[marinello59]

Chris, the FD, has just got back to me about my queries on the accounts. Don't think I'm breaking confidentiality here.

1. the R&D tax credit is based on the studies that the club are doing on different performance plans. Apparently, credit can be claimed on that. The number will increase in future years, which is good to hear.

2. he was surprised to hear that the auditors didn't need the Bydand loan details disclosed (so am I). Happy to share the details by PM, but probably best not to share on an open forum. That said, there's nothing to be unduly concerned about :greengrin

That’s all I need to know. :greengrin

[overdrive]

Are many folk going on Tuesday? I was going to go but given you can only really ask questions on the annual statements and they seem to be replying when you ask them anyway, I'm not sure there's much point. I reckon there won't be many folk there as a result. As much I would find some questions and answer re the accounts interesting (as a fan and an accountant), it is really the non-financial stuff they say that I find most interesting.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Chris, the FD, has just got back to me about my queries on the accounts. Don't think I'm breaking confidentiality here.

1. the R&D tax credit is based on the studies that the club are doing on different performance plans. Apparently, credit can be claimed on that. The number will increase in future years, which is good to hear.

2. he was surprised to hear that the auditors didn't need the Bydand loan details disclosed (so am I). Happy to share the details by PM, but probably best not to share on an open forum. That said, there's nothing to be unduly concerned about :greengrin

:confused:

[grunt]

Most importantly, the auditors need a proof-reader :greengrin They have mis-spelt the names of the main sponsor, and the holding company. Sack them.

The auditors were changed. Reduced the audit fee from £23k to £17k.
That's what happens if you go for cheap auditors. (I have no idea who they are btw).