Shamima Begum

[Jim44]

“Shamima Begum has lost her challenge over the decision to deprive her of British citizenship because she is a threat to national security.” according to BBC news.

End of the line for her. Correct decision, in my opinion.

[Jones28]

I'm torn over this.

She was British, you can't just wash your hands of someone like this make her other people problem.

On the other hand she's left the UK to join a terrorism organization and deserves no sympathy - or could you say she was young, stupid and brianwashed? It must have pretty traumatic for a16/17 year old girl. I'm sure I read she lost 2 or 3 children over there as well.


Edit to the above: she was 15 years old and lost 3 children.

Yeah, theres definitely something weird going on.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm torn over this.

She was British, you can't just wash your hands of someone like this make her other people problem.

On the other hand she's left the UK to join a terrorism organization and deserves no sympathy - or could you say she was young, stupid and brianwashed? It must have pretty traumatic for a16/17 year old girl. I'm sure I read she lost 2 o 3 children over there as well.

I agree she should be brought back here. She was 15 when she left. It’s our problem. She should be in jail here.


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[Berwickhibby]

I agree she should be brought back here. She was 15 when she left. It’s our problem. She should be in jail here.


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She also hold Bangladeshi citizenship…. She has committed no crime in the UK so therefore she cannot be jailed.

[Jones28]

Someone on the radio at the moment making an excellent point that you could go out and commit any crime and not face the same kind of punishment as Begum is facing - permanent exile from the UK.

[Pretty Boy]

I listened to the podcasts the BBC did with her and I'm torn over the whole thing.

She was 15 when she left the UK and most of us who can just about remember being that age can surely acknowledge we made stupid decisions at that age but then there are levels. Necking half a bottle of vodka and trying a couple of Lambert & Butler isn't in the same league as moving abroad to join a terrorist organisation. There was evidently a degree of coercion and brainwashing though and it's hard to know how much of her decision was free will when you take that into account.

Listening to her I'm not totally convinced she has completely renounced all of her extreme views, there were passages it felt like she was saying the right things but there were little slips that suggested it wasn't the entirety of her beliefs. That's just my opinion and take on it though and it's very much playing the amateur psychologist though; there will be people better qualified than me who can make such a judgement.

I really don't know. My gut instinct is she is our problem and therefore we should be obligated to deal with her. Part of me thinks treating her as a pariah, as much as it may be argued she deserves that, could lead to her being a figure for others to rally around and her treatment being used as a tool to radicalise others.

[ballengeich]

She's London born and a product of UK society. Why should Syria or Bangladesh been required to deal with her?

[Rumble de Thump]

Usually when children are groomed by predators they would be considered to be victims and they would be given support.

[AgentDaleCooper]

She should be returned, and I don't honestly get why there's any doubt about it.

She was 15 when she was trafficked - she was the victim in the crime for which she is being punished.

If she poses a risk when over here then deal with it over here. She's being denied a basic human right by being a citizen of nowhere. It's not Bangladesh or Syria's problem - it's ours and hers.

[Hibbyradge]

It's a tough one, but when push comes to shove, this was a young lassie who was groomed and encouraged to run away from home.

[Hibrandenburg]

Usually when children are groomed by predators they would be considered to be victims and they would be given support.

That's about the long and short of it imo.

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm not normally a fence sitter but this is one of those times I can genuinely see both points of view and I'm glad it's not my decision to make

[Ozyhibby]

Usually when children are groomed by predators they would be considered to be victims and they would be given support.

Had she been white, she would have been.


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[Berwickhibby]

Had she been white, she would have been.


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🙄 really

[hibsbollah]

It’s a political decision. Nobody wants to make the nuanced case that if legal rights are to mean anything they must apply to those whose values you despise as much as to those who you respect. Events in Merseyside last week still not much talked about but is at the root of this decision.

[Hibrandenburg]

🙄 really

It is really and it's no surprise that those getting their knickers in a twist a few weeks ago about woman's rights are the same who now don't give a toss about a female child's rights.

[Berwickhibby]

It is really and it's no surprise that those getting their knickers in a twist a few weeks ago about woman's rights are the same who now don't give a toss about a female child's rights.

It’s about terrorism not race or skin colour…. Why won’t every other country in Europe not accept her. She is still married to a Dutch National she could apply for Dutch citizenship.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

It’s about terrorism not race or skin colour…. Why won’t every other country in Europe not accept her. She is still married to a Dutch National she could apply for Dutch citizenship.

Would there have been any debate surrounding an Englishman born to Irish parents who ran off the join the IRA serving time in an English prison? Or would they have revoked his citizenship too because he’s (presumably) an Irish citizen through his parents?


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[Jones28]

It’s about terrorism not race or skin colour…. Why won’t every other country in Europe not accept her. She is still married to a Dutch National she could apply for Dutch citizenship.

She was a child who was groomed online and is not allowed to return to her country of birth. Why are we not taking responsibility for her?

[Berwickhibby]

Would there have been any debate surrounding an Englishman born to Irish parents who ran off the join the IRA serving time in an English prison? Or would they have revoked his citizenship too because he’s (presumably) an Irish citizen through his parents?


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The crime I assume would have been committed in the UK therefore he would be tried and punished for terrorism under UK law.

[Bristolhibby]

I am totally in favour of her returning to the U.K. to serve justice and for us to take responsibility for her.

She was 15, a stupid child when she went to Syria.

I can’t help this is part of the wider “Culture War on Woke” that gets banded about. Yes it was awful, she doesn’t seem massively repentant, but she’s our problem. Worrying that if you have dual nationality the U.K. can wipe their hands of you if they fancy it.

You know if she was a blonde haired, blue eyed white 15 year old from Surrey she’s have been back in the U.K. years ago. And that is reprehensible and frankly racist.

What I also find terrible is we let her children (U.K. Citizens) die in terrible circumstances). No trying to get them out, true innocents.

The U.K. government have to stop hiding behind technicalities and take responsibility.

J

[Berwickhibby]

I am totally in favour of her returning to the U.K. to severe justice and for us to take responsibility for her.

She was 15, a stupid child when she went to Syria.

I can’t help this is part of the wider “Culture War on Woke” that gets banded about. Yes it was awful, she doesn’t seem massively repentant, but she’s our problem. Worrying that if you have dual nationality the U.K. can wipe their hands of you if they fancy it.

You know if she was a blonde haired, blue eyed white 15 year old from Surrey she’s have been back in the U.K. years ago. And that is reprehensible and frankly racist.

What I also find terrible is we let her children (U.K. Citizens) die in terrible circumstances). No trying to get them out, true innocents.

The U.K. government have to stop hiding behind technicalities and take responsibility.

J

What severe justice is this, what crimes has she committed in the UK and there is obviously not enough evidence for war crimes or crimes against Humanity to get her into court. I am on the fence but what I am convinced about this is not about race. I would suggest there may be intelligence about her which is not evidence.

[Ozyhibby]

What severe justice is this, what crimes has she committed in the UK and there is obviously not enough evidence for war crimes or crimes against Humanity to get her into court. I am on the fence but what I am convinced about this is not about race. I would suggest there may be intelligence about her which is not evidence.

The state relying on secret evidence is more concerning than anything else.


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[Berwickhibby]

The state relying on secret evidence is more concerning than anything else.


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I am only assuming that’s the reason, as mentioning previously there is no public evidence that she committed any crimes or terrorist acts 🤷*♂️

[Ozyhibby]

I am only assuming that’s the reason, as mentioning previously there is no public evidence that she committed any crimes or terrorist acts [emoji1745]*[emoji3603]

Then surely you think she should be allowed home?


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[Berwickhibby]

Then surely you think she should be allowed home?


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On the fence

[Hibbyradge]

�� really

https://twitter.com/Ziggy_Tzardust/status/1628409714181562371?t=BYe7t9LoK6eShC9Rp3-CWA&s=19

[Bristolhibby]

What severe justice is this, what crimes has she committed in the UK and there is obviously not enough evidence for war crimes or crimes against Humanity to get her into court. I am on the fence but what I am convinced about this is not about race. I would suggest there may be intelligence about her which is not evidence.

Bad spelling on my part. Serve justice. Pretty sure joining a proscribed terror group is a crime and can be tried in the U.K.

I’m don’t believe she is a personal threat. I think that is being used as an excuse. She will be famous, no way she could go off grid and plan a terror attack. Worse case she takes a knife, attacks people then gets shot. I don’t believe she will do that.

100% if she was white she’s be home and be treated like the victim she was.

J

[Bristolhibby]

https://twitter.com/Ziggy_Tzardust/status/1628409714181562371?t=BYe7t9LoK6eShC9Rp3-CWA&s=19

My point exactly. White 15 year old girl groomed = victim. Brown 15 year old groomed = terrorist with citizenship stripped.

J

[archie]

It is really and it's no surprise that those getting their knickers in a twist a few weeks ago about woman's rights are the same who now don't give a toss about a female child's rights.

No relationship whatsoever. Shocking smear.

[hibsbollah]

Shocking smear.

Isn’t this a bit melodramatic? If we’re talking about widely in society, as opposed to posters on this forum specifically, I’d say the comment is spot on. Women’s rights are selectively applied all the time by men, usually for dodgy political purposes.

[Hibrandenburg]

No relationship whatsoever. Shocking smear.

Are you saying there is no overlap?

[Crunchie]

No relationship whatsoever. Shocking smear.
He loves the attention with his outlandish crap.

[archie]

Are you saying there is no overlap?

It's a crude attempt to paint those raising issues around gender reform as racists. But in the spirit of dialogue please show me the overlap.

[archie]

Isn’t this a bit melodramatic? If we’re talking about widely in society, as opposed to posters on this forum specifically, I’d say the comment is spot on. Women’s rights are selectively applied all the time by men, usually for dodgy political purposes.

Are you saying women aren't able to make the argument for their rights themselves!

[hibsbollah]

Are you saying women aren't able to make the argument for their rights themselves!

Yes that’s exactly what I’m saying :tumble:


Don’t be silly.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's a crude attempt to paint those raising issues around gender reform as racists. But in the spirit of dialogue please show me the overlap.

You just have to Google both subjects and the Daily Mail and I'm sure you'll see I'm right. I think you might see this as a personal attack, but it's not, it's simply an observation.

[Hibrandenburg]

Isn’t this a bit melodramatic? If we’re talking about widely in society, as opposed to posters on this forum specifically, I’d say the comment is spot on. Women’s rights are selectively applied all the time by men, usually for dodgy political purposes.

Exactly this. I feel dirty but I've just googled the reaction from the Daily Mail and it's all so predictable, it was only a few days ago they were the stalwarts of women's rights. I won't post links for obvious reasons.

[archie]

Yes that’s exactly what I’m saying :tumble:


Don’t be silly.

This is what you said 'Women’s rights are selectively applied all the time by men, usually for dodgy political purposes.' That implies women have no agency - I suspect this is a reference to gender critical activists.

[archie]

You just have to Google both subjects and the Daily Mail and I'm sure you'll see I'm right. I think you might see this as a personal attack, but it's not, it's simply an observation.

So your comment on the overlap is based on Daily Mail coverage! Thats it?

[Hibrandenburg]

Are you saying women aren't able to make the argument for their rights themselves!

He's saying nothing of the kind and I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion you have, unless you want to.

[Hibrandenburg]

So your comment on the overlap is based on Daily Mail coverage! Thats it?

You wanted an example and I gave you one, there's many more out there but I'm not going link or cut and paste the whole Internet for you.

Are you saying there is no overlap?

[archie]

He's saying nothing of the kind and I can't see how anyone could come to the conclusion you have, unless you want to.

It's rather odd centreing men in a discussion on women's rights.

[hibsbollah]

This is what you said 'Women’s rights are selectively applied all the time by men, usually for dodgy political purposes.' That implies women have no agency - I suspect this is a reference to gender critical activists.

You’ve managed to quote me accurately with the wonders of cut n paste and then spectacularly misinterpreted what it means :dunno: and you’re wrong about the last bit too, I didn’t really get into that debate too much on here, or anywhere.

If you’re interested, the cliché I was thinking of would be the kind of reaction you’d see from a certain commentator to the Rotherham child abuse scandal which involved almost all south Asian origin men, and the complete absence of these kind of commentators from any WIDER debate on sexual violence, perhaps when it doesn’t involve someone from that background. And this commentator might also be derogatory about Meghan Markle or women in general and probably thinks women’s place is on the home and thinks that Andrew Tate creature has ‘some good ideas’. In this circumstance, I don’t see them as credible. And that kind of hypocrisy is absolutely everywhere.

[Ozyhibby]

Wonder what a Venn diagram of ‘people who oppose GRR’ and ‘people who think Begum should rot in Syria’ looks like?


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[Hibrandenburg]

It's rather odd centreing men in a discussion on women's rights.

Why, his point is valid. Literally days ago right wing men were championing woman's rights, now they want a schoolgirl punished because she was groomed into a terrorist organisation. The same men who rightly get angry at Asian men grooming white children want to punish a brown girl for being groomed.

Are you saying there is no overlap?

[James310]

Wonder what a Venn diagram of ‘people who oppose GRR’ and ‘people who think Begum should rot in Syria’ looks like?


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Kate Forbes for example? You were all for her until a few days ago. 🤣

[archie]

You wanted an example and I gave you one, there's many more out there but I'm not going link or cut and paste the whole Internet for you.

Are you saying there is no overlap?

What does that even mean? The issues are completely different. I happen to think the Shamina Begum case is extraordinarily complex. I'm very conscious of her young age and can only imagine what horrors she experienced. I also think she has made some rash and contradictory statements about her time with Islamic State, which are concerning. I think using the case to make a point about gender reform advocates is pretty cheap tbh.

[archie]

Why, his point is valid. Literally days ago right wing men were championing woman's rights, now they want a schoolgirl punished because she was groomed into a terrorist organisation. The same men who rightly get angry at Asian men grooming white children want to punish a brown girl for being groomed.

Are you saying there is no overlap?There you go again- 'right wing men championing women's rights'. Why do you think it's right wing to champion women's rights? And fundamentally, you see no difference between the kids who were abused in Rotherham and the Shamina Begum case?

[Hibrandenburg]

There you go again- 'right wing men championing women's rights'. Why do you think it's right wing to champion women's rights? And fundamentally, you see no difference between the kids who were abused in Rotherham and the Shamina Begum case?

Are you saying right wing men don't champion women's rights when it suits their agenda? Is there overlap?

[Hibrandenburg]

Kate Forbes for example? You were all for her until a few days ago. 🤣

I'm not sure she identifies as a right wing man.

[archie]

Are you saying right wing men don't champion women's rights when it suits their agenda? Is there overlap?

Of the people who champion women's rights a subset of them will be men and a further subset will be right wing. But it is a logical fallacy to therefore assume that the championing of women's rights is right wing. Some right wing men who support women's rights may have a view on Shamina Begum. You are drawing inferences from that which appear to be about smearing women's rights campaigners. The use of the term 'overlap' is so vague as to be meaningless. I suspect that's the point.

[archie]

Wonder what a Venn diagram of ‘people who oppose GRR’ and ‘people who think Begum should rot in Syria’ looks like?


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What do you think it looks like?

[Hibrandenburg]

Of the people who champion women's rights a subset of them will be men and a further subset will be right wing. But it is a logical fallacy to therefore assume that the championing of women's rights is right wing. Some right wing men who support women's rights may have a view on Shamina Begum. You are drawing inferences from that which appear to be about smearing women's rights campaigners.

I was only talking about the overlap, you seemed to feel offended by the suggestion and it was you who assumed I meant all women's rights campaigners not me. Is there overlap?

[Hibrandenburg]

What do you think it looks like?

This?

[archie]

I was only talking about the overlap, you seemed to feel offended by the suggestion and it was you who assumed I meant all women's rights campaigners not me. Is there overlap?

Can you be more specific about what you mean by 'overlap'? It could mean random posters on the Daily Mail. It could mean statements by politicians. Do you accept there might also be an overlap with vegetarians or bikers?

[archie]

This?

So are the GRR campaigners meant to be the racists?

[James310]

This?

You are just trolling now calling people who had concerns about the GRA racists.

[Stairway 2 7]

Threads a binfire of cliche and bringing up one subject to try and win the high ground on another subject, pretty shan chat.

For my 2 Bob. I've no sympathy for her hard treatment over the years. She wasn't enticed into selling green on County lines. She went to join one of the openly evil groups of our age. She shared videos of men being burnt in a cage, she also doesn't appear to show any contrition.

In saying that she is a British citizen and should be home observed, assessed and rehabilitated.

[archie]

Threads a binfire of cliche and bringing up one subject to try and win the high ground on another subject, pretty shan chat.

For my 2 Bob. I've no sympathy for her hard treatment over the years. She wasn't enticed into selling green on County lines. She went to join one of the openly evil groups of our age. She shared videos of men being burnt in a cage, she also doesn't appear to show any contrition.

In saying that she is a British citizen and should be home observed, assessed and rehabilitated.

TBH I think you are probably right on both counts!

[Hibrandenburg]

Can you be more specific about what you mean by 'overlap'? It could mean random posters on the Daily Mail. It could mean statements by politicians. Do you accept there might also be an overlap with vegetarians or bikers?

A large proportion of Daily Mail readers (94%) are happy with dishing out exile as a punishment to a brown skinned British schoolgirl for being groomed, days ago a large proportion were stalwarts of women's rights, the overlap will be huge.

Being vegetarian and a biker isn't contradictory hypocritical.

[archie]

A large proportion of Daily Mail readers (94%) are happy with dishing out exile as a punishment to a brown skinned British schoolgirl for being groomed, days ago a large proportion were stalwarts of women's rights, the overlap will be huge.

Being vegetarian and a biker isn't contradictory hypocritical.

Source?

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

The crime I assume would have been committed in the UK therefore he would be tried and punished for terrorism under UK law.

Fair point, didn’t consider that [emoji16]


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[Hibrandenburg]

Source?

Eh, the Daily Mail.

[archie]

Eh, the Daily Mail.

So the Daily Mail had a poll that asked: 'are happy with dishing out exile as a punishment to a brown skinned British schoolgirl for being groomed' and then correlated that with men who support women's rights. Wow!

[Sergio sledge]

She should be returned, and I don't honestly get why there's any doubt about it.

She was 15 when she was trafficked - she was the victim in the crime for which she is being punished.

If she poses a risk when over here then deal with it over here. She's being denied a basic human right by being a citizen of nowhere. It's not Bangladesh or Syria's problem - it's ours and hers.

Yup, she was a child who was groomed and radicalised. She should be brought home to be rehabilitated here.

Even if she is a security risk, we can't just dump people we consider a risk on other countries and expect them to deal with it.

[hibsbollah]

Threads a binfire of cliche and bringing up one subject to try and win the high ground on another subject, pretty shan chat.

For my 2 Bob. I've no sympathy for her hard treatment over the years. She wasn't enticed into selling green on County lines. She went to join one of the openly evil groups of our age. She shared videos of men being burnt in a cage, she also doesn't appear to show any contrition.

In saying that she is a British citizen and should be home observed, assessed and rehabilitated.

Be specific. What chat is ‘shan’, by whom and in what way.

[Sylar]

Had she been white, she would have been.


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You think Samantha Laithwaite would be welcome back in the UK (assuming she's not dead)?

[Berwickhibby]

Seems quite a ding dong on this thread tonight…I personally have a had a smashing evening at meet the defenders at Easter Road. To be honest the Government have provided enough for a court to strip her of her British Citizenship the appeal court are satisfied that the first decision was correct. The race accusation is nonsense, who was the Home Secretary who imposed this and his race, who is the current Home Secretary and her race.
Until the intelligence and information which his held about Begham is in the public domain I will remain undecided about her return. I can guarantee the uproar on here and the finger pointing if she is returned and is involved in a terrorist incident.

[Paul1642]

Yup, she was a child who was groomed and radicalised. She should be brought home to be rehabilitated here.

Even if she is a security risk, we can't just dump people we consider a risk on other countries and expect them to deal with it.

Legally it appears that we can when they are of dual citizenship. I would normally be torn on an issue like this but it wasn’t as if it was a spur of the moment decision. She consciously made her way from London to Syria which must have taken a lot of planning to join the one of the most evil organisations in all of history. The video of the Jordanian pilot being burned alive still makes me feel sick to this day.

Ultimately actions have consequences and she is going to have to live with hers. I fail to believe anyone who would willingly go well out of their way to join IS could ever be reformed.

It’s also not as if she arrived in Syria and regretted things once reality hit. I remember she was reported to act as an enforcer against other woman (speak about woman’s rights) and helped rig up suicide vests a such.

Her only regrets is that IS were defeated.

[heretoday]

Seems tough on the girl.

[WeeRussell]

Are you saying women aren't able to make the argument for their rights themselves!

How. On. Earth

🙈

[cabbageandribs1875]

poor girl, she will just have to keep donning those cool sunglasses and Western garb for her PR shots until at least the next appeal has been heard, it must be hard for her

[ElginHibbie]

Ultimately actions have consequences and she is going to have to live with hers.


Anyone who has met an average 16 year old should be able to quickly conclude that they shouldn’t be making any unnecessary life changing decisions.

So a 16 year old shouldn't be able to make life changing decisions, but if they do they have to live with those decisions?

[Santa Cruz]

I'm not clear if the person who wrote this article is a journalist, he describes himself as an extreme tourist. He's met SB a number of times and has mixed views. It's an interesting read.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/shamima-begum-is-no-victim-and-i-should-know/

[Bristolhibby]

Seems quite a ding dong on this thread tonight…I personally have a had a smashing evening at meet the defenders at Easter Road. To be honest the Government have provided enough for a court to strip her of her British Citizenship the appeal court are satisfied that the first decision was correct. The race accusation is nonsense, who was the Home Secretary who imposed this and his race, who is the current Home Secretary and her race.
Until the intelligence and information which his held about Begham is in the public domain I will remain undecided about her return. I can guarantee the uproar on here and the finger pointing if she is returned and is involved in a terrorist incident.

One thing I’ve learnt is the Government and the establishment never, never lies to the public.

I remember being 20 and being all for the war in Iraq. Totally bought the nonsense about WMDs.

No sexed up dossier there, no weapons inspector whistle blower turning up randomly dead in a forest. No siree.

J

[Hibrandenburg]

So the Daily Mail had a poll that asked: 'are happy with dishing out exile as a punishment to a brown skinned British schoolgirl for being groomed' and then correlated that with men who support women's rights. Wow!

Basically yes, but I did the correlation.

So there's no overlap?

[Hibrandenburg]

So a 16 year old shouldn't be able to make life changing decisions, but if they do they have to live with those decisions?

Move along now, there's no hypocrisy or overlap here.

I could make a few similar posts quoting posters who seem to have similar lapses of consistency depending on who the person in question is.

[heretoday]

poor girl, she will just have to keep donning those cool sunglasses and Western garb for her PR shots until at least the next appeal has been heard, it must be hard for her

She should get a good agent. I envisage a lucrative career.

[archie]

Basically yes, but I did the correlation.

So there's no overlap?

Based on your 'detailed analysis' it's impossible to say given the methodological issues with your approach.

[Hibrandenburg]

Based on your 'detailed analysis' it's impossible to say given the methodological issues with your approach.

:faf: Aye right, so none of the 94% who answered that Shamina Begum who was groomed as a child and deserved exile were getting hot under the collar about women's rights last week?

[archie]

:faf: Aye right, so none of the 94% who answered that Shamina Begum who was groomed as a child and deserved exile were getting hot under the collar about women's rights last week?

OK. Let's apply your 'approach' to a real world example. Yesterday Kemi Badenoch set out her strong support for same sex marriage. Another Government Minister, Penny Mordaunt, has been a strong advocate for rights for trans people. Both are members of Government that decided to remove Shamina Begum's citizenship. Using your 'logic' that demonstrates a clear overlap between supporting trans rights, same sex marriage and people who 'are happy with dishing out exile as a punishment to a brown skinned British schoolgirl for being groomed'. Agree?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

She didn't appear to be showing too much contrition on the documentary that was on tv 2 or 3 weeks ago.

[Ozyhibby]

She didn't appear to be showing too much contrition on the documentary that was on tv 2 or 3 weeks ago.

It’s not really about whether she is guilty or not. It’s whether it’s right that we just leave her with the Kurds in Syria and say it’s your problem now even though they fought ISIS as well and did not ask them to come to Syria.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

She should get a good agent. I envisage a lucrative career.


Harper and Collins book deal probably

[hibsbollah]

She didn't appear to be showing too much contrition on the documentary that was on tv 2 or 3 weeks ago.

It wasn't that she was showing a lack of contrition for what she'd done i think, she was just denying she knew about what was going on with Isis in Syria, and the decapitations and the beatles and so on. And at that point I dont think her story came across as very credible at all.

But as has been said, even if she's lying about that, that's not really the point.

[archie]

It wasn't that she was showing a lack of contrition for what she'd done i think, she was just denying she knew about what was going on with Isis in Syria, and the decapitations and the beatles and so on. And at that point I dont think her story came across as very credible at all.

But as has been said, even if she's lying about that, that's not really the point.

I think one of the problems is that we seem to need people to be angel or demon, Victim or oppressor. The reality is, as with all people, they are somewhere in between. Jack Letts is a similar case, but he was older, so maybe that explains the apparent lack of support for him?

[Hibrandenburg]

OK. Let's apply your 'approach' to a real world example. Yesterday Kemi Badenoch set out her strong support for same sex marriage. Another Government Minister, Penny Mordaunt, has been a strong advocate for rights for trans people. Both are members of Government that decided to remove Shamina Begum's citizenship. Using your 'logic' that demonstrates a clear overlap between supporting trans rights, same sex marriage and people who 'are happy with dishing out exile as a punishment to a brown skinned British schoolgirl for being groomed'. Agree?

Why can't you just agree there is an overlap between those men who last week were stalwarts of women's rights and those who think it's OK to exile a child who has been groomed to join an evil organisation? Is there one or isn't there?

[Berwickhibby]

Why can't you just agree there is an overlap between those men who last week were stalwarts of women's rights and those who think it's OK to exile a child who has been groomed to join an evil organisation? Is there one or isn't there?

You keep using the term “Groomed” as a fact , Begam’s own Solicitor uses the terms “credible suspicion” that she may of been groomed or trafficked. Which suggests there is little or no evidence at all.

[archie]

Why can't you just agree there is an overlap between those men who last week were stalwarts of women's rights and those who think it's OK to exile a child who has been groomed to join an evil organisation? Is there one or isn't there?

This has been a masterclass in social media posting. Take something with a germ of truth (I suspect the Daily Mail has run a poll). But frame the poll question in your own words. Draw a conclusion that you can't support and link the two, because many will think it ought to be true. Use that inference to make a wider point. When questioned dig in. Then drill in to a very small point that is superficially reasonable - in this case 'is there an overlap'. Keep asking the question while ignoring other points raised. Keep asserting the reasonableness of your point, despite the lack of any evidence. Then resort to mockery - the laughing emoji- asserting (without evidence) that not accepting the point is ridiculous. Then the resort to pleading - 'why can’t you just agree...'. So I ask you, why won't you accept that a ham fisted attempt to smear gender critical people as racists has rather blown up in your face?

[James310]

This has been a masterclass in social media posting. Take something with a germ of truth (I suspect the Daily Mail has run a poll). But frame the poll question in your own words. Draw a conclusion that you can't support and link the two, because many will think it ought to be true. Use that inference to make a wider point. When questioned dig in. Then drill in to a very small point that is superficially reasonable - in this case 'is there an overlap'. Keep asking the question while ignoring other points raised. Keep asserting the reasonableness of your point, despite the lack of any evidence. Then resort to mockery - the laughing emoji- asserting (without evidence) that not accepting the point is ridiculous. Then the resort to pleading - 'why can’t you just agree...'. So I ask you, why won't you accept that a ham fisted attempt to smear gender critical people as racists has rather blown up in your face?

Well said. I think he is just trolling now, don't feed the trolls.

[Hibrandenburg]

This has been a masterclass in social media posting. Take something with a germ of truth (I suspect the Daily Mail has run a poll). But frame the poll question in your own words. Draw a conclusion that you can't support and link the two, because many will think it ought to be true. Use that inference to make a wider point. When questioned dig in. Then drill in to a very small point that is superficially reasonable - in this case 'is there an overlap'. Keep asking the question while ignoring other points raised. Keep asserting the reasonableness of your point, despite the lack of any evidence. Then resort to mockery - the laughing emoji- asserting (without evidence) that not accepting the point is ridiculous. Then the resort to pleading - 'why can’t you just agree...'. So I ask you, why won't you accept that a ham fisted attempt to smear gender critical people as racists has rather blown up in your face?

Rubbish, you've drawn that conclusion for whatever reason. I merely pointed out that there is an overlap between two things that are to an extent hypocritical. You've dodged actually agreeing or disagreeing with that like a politician being asked about his claims submission. You seem to think my statement is a personal attack, well fine, if the cap fits then wear it.

[Ozyhibby]

You keep using the term “Groomed” as a fact , Begam’s own Solicitor uses the terms “credible suspicion” that she may of been groomed or trafficked. Which suggests there is little or no evidence at all.

Wasn’t it the judge in the case yesterday that said that? But they were only there to rule on a narrow aspect of the law?


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[archie]

Rubbish, you've drawn that conclusion for whatever reason. I merely pointed out that there is an overlap between two things that are to an extent hypocritical. You've dodged actually agreeing or disagreeing with that like a politician being asked about his claims submission. You seem to think my statement is a personal attack, well fine, if the cap fits then wear it.
I don't think it's a personal attack. I think it's a crude attempt to smear people with gender critical views. This was reinforced by your Venn diagram post. As for me dodging the question, you haven't provided a shred of credible evidence for your assertions.

[Berwickhibby]

Wasn’t it the judge in the case yesterday that said that? But they were only there to rule on a narrow aspect of the law?


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Definitely Begam’s solicitors who said it on the news and that they would challenge the decision.

[MKHIBEE]

Definitely Begam’s solicitors who said it on the news and that they would challenge the decision.
The first news report I heard yesterday said that the judge used the term “Credible suspicion she was groomed/ trafficked”.

[hibsbollah]

I think one of the problems is that we seem to need people to be angel or demon, Victim or oppressor. The reality is, as with all people, they are somewhere in between. Jack Letts is a similar case, but he was older, so maybe that explains the apparent lack of support for him?

I agree strongly with your first two sentences, absolutely. But then you state think Begum has had lots of ‘support’ relative to Jack Letts? Unusual choice of word, i disagree, I think she’s been demonized to the point of parody. I don’t know much about Jack Letts but I suspect because Begum has been allegedly groomed and was effectively raped by an isis killer, plus fulfilling some of the fetishized criteria of the tabloid press, that a male doesn’t, that explains some of the interest.

[He's here!]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/shamima-begum-is-no-victim-and-i-should-know/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_campaign=LNCH%20%2020230223%20%20House%20Ads%2 0%20SM+CID_eb1947b4cb316eea79d0344dc4357c4a

Shamima Begum is no victim – and I should know
by Andrew Drury

[Ozyhibby]

Definitely Begam’s solicitors who said it on the news and that they would challenge the decision.

I think they were repeating the judges words.


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[Berwickhibby]

I think they were repeating the judges words.


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You may well be correct…I just saw her solicitors on the news yesterday and that’s the phrase they used

[archie]

I agree strongly with your first two sentences, absolutely. But then you state think Begum has had lots of ‘support’ relative to Jack Letts? Unusual choice of word, i disagree, I think she’s been demonized to the point of parody. I don’t know much about Jack Letts but I suspect because Begum has been allegedly groomed and was effectively raped by an isis killer, plus fulfilling some of the fetishized criteria of the tabloid press, that a male doesn’t, that explains some of the interest.

I think you are right. There's also something about young women in such cases that attracts a lot more prurient interest than men.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think you are right. There's also something about young women in such cases that attracts a lot more prurient interest than men.

Halleluja

[archie]

Halleluja

Thank you. How that relates to your earlier point escapes me, but we move on.

[Hibrandenburg]

Appeal court rules that Begum's UK citizenship appeal gets thrown out.

[MKHIBEE]

Appeal court rules that Begum's UK citizenship appeal gets thrown out.
No surprise there.

[Hibs4185]

No surprise there.

Should there be a surprise?

[grunt]

Jest.
It is hard to feel compassion towards someone who goes abroad to support a radical group that detests our country's values, but she was clearly not bright enough to know better.

That's why I don't think Liz Truss should be stripped of her citizenship.

[MKHIBEE]

Should there be a surprise?

Life is full of them

[Bristolhibby]

Not often I agree with Jacob Rees-Mogg (and I absolutely think she was groomed) but a good pice here about why stripping somebody’s citizenship ain’t cricket.

https://x.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1762042777917899168?s=46&t=lvK1thVbQaJCvhCoXwjUPA

[Pretty Boy]

Not often I agree with Jacob Rees-Mogg (and I absolutely think she was groomed) but a good pice here about why stripping somebody’s citizenship ain’t cricket.

https://x.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1762042777917899168?s=46&t=lvK1thVbQaJCvhCoXwjUPA

Funny I read Peter Hitchens saying much the same thing and found myself in the unusual position of agreeing with him on political matters. I often think if I'm on the opposite side from people like Rees Mogg then it probably means the right side but he's pretty spot on here.

[Keith_M]

Not often I agree with Jacob Rees-Mogg (and I absolutely think she was groomed) but a good pice here about why stripping somebody’s citizenship ain’t cricket.

https://x.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/1762042777917899168?s=46&t=lvK1thVbQaJCvhCoXwjUPA


Funny I read Peter Hitchens saying much the same thing and found myself in the unusual position of agreeing with him on political matters. I often think if I'm on the opposite side from people like Rees Mogg then it probably means the right side but he's pretty spot on here.


What's it they say about a broken clock?

[Kato]

What's it they say about a broken clock?It should be ground down to dust, thrown into the wind and never thought of again?

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