Hands On Hibs

[AgentDaleCooper]

We're going nowhere fast, and the ownership really seems to be a big part of that problem. Sacking LJ might paper over the cracks, but it really does seem like he doesn't know how to run a football club.

Is it time for a positive campaign, not to 'sack the board', but to recommence the process of passing ownership over to the fans? Ultimately, it's our club.

Ron might not be happy with the idea initially, but it seems obvious to me that he's going to get fed up at some point. When this happens, selling the club to the fans would be a win-win, with him leaving with his head held high, and us having our club back. Perhaps if we start campaigning for this sooner rather than later, it might speed up the process...?

[HarpOnHibee]

Club should have been in fan ownership years ago in my opinion. If we truly are a family club, then it should be owned by the Hibs family. Not some corporate bigwig overseas.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Club should have been in fan ownership years ago in my opinion. If we truly are a family club, then it should be owned by the Hibs family. Not some corporate bigwig overseas.

That's my point - and i think there could be an opportinity to redress that.

[HibeeHibernian4]

We're going nowhere fast, and the ownership really seems to be a big part of that problem. Sacking LJ might paper over the cracks, but it really does seem like he doesn't know how to run a football club.

Is it time for a positive campaign, not to 'sack the board', but to recommence the process of passing ownership over to the fans? Ultimately, it's our club.

Ron might not be happy with the idea initially, but it seems obvious to me that he's going to get fed up at some point. When this happens, selling the club to the fans would be a win-win, with him leaving with his head held high, and us having our club back. Perhaps if we start campaigning for this sooner rather than later, it might speed up the process...?

I like this. :agree:

[JammyDoidger]

I despise the majority of hibs fans we accept this pish. We always have done, we are weak to the core and it runs through the club. They can tell us what they want and the majority believe it. It's pathetic. Stand up and be counted.

[Victor]

I despise the majority of hibs fans we accept this pish. We always have done, we are weak to the core and it runs through the club. They can tell us what they want and the majority believe it. It's pathetic. Stand up and be counted.

[emoji2957]

[Pretty Boy]

It was probably the first real alarm bell I had with Gordon, his refusal to really engage with HSL. They hold shares on behalf of a not insignificant number of Hibs fans, are the largest minority shareholder and were at the time giving the club what essentially amounted to free money, straight out of the pockets of fans. Ponying up if you will. In fact one of his first acts was to dilute their shareholding. It should have been one of his first tasks to find common ground with them and not only solidify the relationship but try to grow it.

As fans we are in a pretty powerless position as individuals. Shouting and screaming about Gordon might make us feel better (it certainly works for me) but it will get us nowhere. Power lies in the collective. For a whole range of reasons HSL never really caught on with Hibs fans. It had a bad start with loud opposition, it never really picked up momentum and had long spells of silence. That's not disrespect to the guys volunteering their time to run it, Jim Adie in particular has worked tirelessly to keep it going but ultimately it's never really looked like am owner in waiting.

I would suggest it's time for a really strong rebrand. Change the name completely. HSL sounded cold and corporate, HS has never caught on as almost everyone still refers to HSL. Something like Hands on Hibs that draws inspiration from something as emotive as Hands Off Hibs might be a step in the right direction. Really spend time explaining fan ownership in terms everyone can understand. A lot of people seemed to just fundamentally misunderstand whilst others were deliberately obtuse and played the fool ('just look at threads on here to see what fan ownership would be like' or 'will we all be voting on who plays up front on Saturday'). Fan ownership still has a board, it srtill has a CEO, directors, a commercial team etc etc. It's a model used elsewhere and for me it's the only sustainable one for a club of our size in a league like Scotland. On that note show examples of successful fan ownership schemes and drive home that it's not only possible but desirable. The whole enterprise needs to look, act and sound more like ownership in waiting.

I've often asked what Ron Gordon is doing here. I never bought his PR fluff, my view was and is that he is here for no other reason than to make money. In that regards it doesn't have to be hostile; every business has a price, find out what his is for Hibs and work with him towards meeting it. I've often got the impression he isn't particularly thick skinned, at his first AGM he really bristled when asked if there were plans for any lasting tribute to STF, he did not like it one bit and was quick to dismiss the idea. He's also got very tetchy under some pretty soft questioning from the podcast guys (with no disrespect aimed at any of them, I know and like a few of them but these are never going to be the toughest interviews an owner faces). The reason I mention my worry that he is thin skinned is that as it stands I still don't believe he has any real nefarious motive for being here, he's just not very good at running a football club. Enough criticism and vitriol (no matter how much we feel it is merited) aimed at him and his son and that could change though, he has the power when it comes to Hibs and there are ways other than on field success to make money in and around Edinburgh.

At the AGM just after HSL was launched STF stood up and made an impassioned defence of his stewardship of the club. He was clearly livid at some of the accusations that had been aimed at him. He also stated that if Hibs fans really wanted their club back then he was offering it to them. At that time it seems not enough Hibs fans did want our club back. Given how many people say they feel disconnected, alienated or apathetic towards the current incarnation of Hibs maybe it's time to ask the question again. How much do we really want our club back?

[Iain G]

Great post PrettyBoy, am not going to quote it though!

I fear that if we couldn't get fan ownership together in a pre-pandemic and pre-Brexit world then we are seriously going to struggle to get people to commit funds to fan ownership in the current financial climate.

I have no actual issues with Ron owning the club, but they have made mistakes, maybe put faith in he wrong people and I remain hopeful they are putting the football side into a better place and have learned lessons.

They also need to work out a mechanism to get fans to reconnect with the club, directly, through fan liaison and more honest and direct connection between fans and board. And to discuss a way that HSL or another form of investment into ownership can aid the club and connect the fans.

It is still in their power to make this better and improve.

[S4uzee]

What do we have to do to start something like this?

[Since452]

Not keen on fan ownership. Never been something i've wanted. I'd much prefer a competent owner putting a winning team on the park instead of focusing on fancy hospitality restaurants.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Not keen on fan ownership. Never been something i've wanted. I'd much prefer a competent owner putting a winning team on the park instead of focusing on fancy hospitality restaurants.

I want fans owning the club and a competent professional board running it.

[Just_Jimmy]

I'm a naturally cynical person but for me the question has always been;

Why does an American businessman with no real connections to Scotland, and no interest or connections to football or Hibs, want to buy Hibs?

That question has never been satisfactorily answered for me.

I'm not suggesting he's a crook or anything of that nature, however, I am cautious of the motives and I wonder what lengths would he go to to get his money back?

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[Iain G]

Not keen on fan ownership. Never been something i've wanted. I'd much prefer a competent owner putting a winning team on the park instead of focusing on fancy hospitality restaurants.

They are not two disparate, unlinked things though. If we can increase revenue through corporate then we can up our playing budget.

There is a lot to be critical about but improving our corporate offering and improving the match day experience at Easter Road is something they are getting right.

[Iain G]

I'm a naturally cynical person but for me the question has always been;

Why does an American businessman with no real connections to Scotland, and no interest or connections to football or Hibs, want to buy Hibs?

That question has never been satisfactorily answered for me.

I'm not suggesting he's a crook or anything of that nature, however, I am cautious of the motives and I wonder what lengths would he go to to get his money back?

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He is Peruvian with Scottish ancestry, and a football fan. Maybe it's as simple as that?

[Scotty Leither]

A competent owner would embrace HSL and chart a mutually beneficial path for the club by bringing them onto the Board, not blanking them as Gordon is doing.

Beneath the media savvy facade with Gordon I reckon privately it’s very much his way or the highway.

That kind of bullishness is fine if you’re heading up a successful club ON the field, but it’s a recipe for discontent and frustration when results are as consistently poor as they are.

I don’t know the guy personally but I don’t think he’s here for the long haul, and the fact he’s well nigh invisible at the moment doesn’t sit well with me either.

[Bridge hibs]

Not keen on fan ownership. Never been something i've wanted. I'd much prefer a competent owner putting a winning team on the park instead of focusing on fancy hospitality restaurants.

I think we need a bit of everything and much more. Having top class corporate facilities is a start and will bring in extra income. Ive got nothing against that, along with multiple sponsors, without that there would be much less income coming in. The issue is the connection, or lack of it on the playing side as witnessed all season its just been one disaster from another to another.

Ron Gordon had the chance, he said he wanted to close the gap at the top, european football regularly etc etc etc. Right now we are a disaster and are nowhere near that, we have regressed at an alarming rate and its happening in front of his very eyes, this is happening on his watch

I think, given the apathy at the club now, fans anger is increasing, two significant losses to our local rivals have tipped most people, we get the passion, we feel the passion and the emotion of following hibs week in and week out, Ron and his cohorts dont, we are the fans, they are a million miles away from that

The passion and emotion shown when we won the cup in 2016 is like a distant memory, I still watch footage of that great day and then I look at us now, ****ing torn to shreds, we need our heart back, our club, the club we all have a love affair with, the club that has shown before that we wouldnt die

Before its all too ****ing late…

Thanks Ron and Co, for a truck load of absolute **** all 🤬

[Forza Fred]

I still don’t think Ron has anything but the best intention for Hibs.

However it is clear that his original strategy of buying young players, improving them and on selling them has not worked.

Hopefully he will come out and admit mistakes have been made, and outline his plan to get us on track.

Whether we like it or not HE is the man with the power, he literally owns the club

Can’t see how people marching with pitchforks and burning torches down Easter Road is going to help the situation.

But Ron needs to come out and tell the fans what his plan is, and soon.

[Just_Jimmy]

He is Peruvian with Scottish ancestry, and a football fan. Maybe it's as simple as that?Maybe it it that simple. [emoji848]

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[superfurryhibby]

Good suggestion from ADC.

Interesting that PB has started of with the share dilution. At the time, I thought it was scandalous and posted so, only to be told that this wasn't unusual business practice. Fair enough, I'm not that au fait with the machinations of small scale capitalism and company takeover. However, I felt it was shameful that fans were enticed into a scheme and then effectively bumped out of 8% of their shareholding (is that the right figure?) . That must have equated to a good few hundred thousand pounds worth of our hard earned money ( I have also wondered if the Farmer family were aware that this would happen?).

We had a golden opportunity to secure the future of the club and keep it safe from external speculators like the Gordon's. Unfortunately, for a whole range of reasons, it didn't get the full backing of fans (although we should keep in mind that the combined HSL/individual shareholding did reach something like the late 20's percentage wise.

I genuinely believe that if we were to be presented with the same opportunity now, if it were managed and presented properly, then we would grasp the nettle.

I wonder what it would take to see Gordon sell his stake?

The annual accounts will be very revealing in terms of our income and expenditure and the AGM will be a hoot.

[Daniel 1875]

Good suggestion from ADC.

Interesting that PB has started of with the share dilution. At the time, I thought it was scandalous and posted so, only to be told that this wasn't unusual business practice. Fair enough, I'm not that au fait with the machinations of small scale capitalism and company takeover. However, I felt it was shameful that fans were enticed into a scheme and then effectively bumped out of 8% of their shareholding (is that the right figure?) . That must have equated to a good few hundred thousand pounds worth of our hard earned money ( I have also wondered if the Farmer family were aware that this would happen?).

We had a golden opportunity to secure the future of the club and keep it safe from external speculators like the Gordon's. Unfortunately, for a whole range of reasons, it didn't get the full backing of fans (although we should keep in mind that the combined HSL/individual shareholding did reach something like the late 20's percentage wise.

I genuinely believe that if we were to be presented with the same opportunity now, if it were managed and presented properly, then we would grasp the nettle.

I wonder what it would take to see Gordon sell his stake?

The annual accounts will be very revealing in terms of our income and expenditure and the AGM will be a hoot.

We went from just under 20% pre takeover (which was the stated % required for a board rep) to our current 15.4% after the dilution.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Not keen on fan ownership. Never been something i've wanted. I'd much prefer a competent owner putting a winning team on the park instead of focusing on fancy hospitality restaurants.

Are there examples of fan ownership elsewhere that your concerns are based on?

[McGruber]

Not keen on fan ownership. Never been something i've wanted. I'd much prefer a competent owner putting a winning team on the park instead of focusing on fancy hospitality restaurants.

Agree with you.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Agree with you.

why, though?

[McGruber]

why, though?

Our fanbase is too small for it. It's not united, it's not organised and it's not qualified to run the football club. It would run aground relatively quickly and we would be looking for a white knight to take us on.

We couldn't muster the appetite or funds to take enough shares in HSL which ran for ages before Gordon came in. Not enough fans want it - by a distance

[GreenGray]

Our fanbase is too small for it. It's not united, it's not organised and it's not qualified to run the football club. It would run aground relatively quickly and we would be looking for a white knight to take us on.

We couldn't muster the appetite or funds to take enough shares in HSL which ran for ages before Gordon came in. Not enough fans want it - by a distance

Unfortunately true, unless there was a real desperate need for something to happen (even then it might not) nothing will.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Our fanbase is too small for it. It's not united, it's not organised and it's not qualified to run the football club. It would run aground relatively quickly and we would be looking for a white knight to take us on.

We couldn't muster the appetite or funds to take enough shares in HSL which ran for ages before Gordon came in. Not enough fans want it - by a distance

I don't think the size of our fanbase is an issue at all. Fan ownership seems to be fairing pretty well at St. Mirren, Motherwell and, dare I say it, Hearts. The whole idea of fan ownership is that the support put qualified people who are capable of organising the club into place.

HSL were nearly up to 25% before Gordon came in - it was certainly getting somewhere. (wikipedia has it as being up to 30%, but the source has been deleted)

This business of waiting in hope of a white night to come in is far more risky, and i honestly don't know where such a person is going to come from. If there's a hibs fan out there with a pile of cash and the know-how to run a club, why haven't they come forward? Other than that, it's going to be someone who sees us either as an 'opportunity' for themselves, or a vanity project - neither of these inspire any sort of confidence in me. For every good egg, there's going to many, many bad ones.

Time to take matters into our own hands.

[superfurryhibby]

We went from just under 20% pre takeover (which was the stated % required for a board rep) to our current 15.4% after the dilution.

I appreciate that HSL and individual shareholders are different things, but the combined total for them was c 28% before the dilution, which effectively ensured the Gordon's could run the club as they pleased?



Our fanbase is too small for it. It's not united, it's not organised and it's not qualified to run the football club. It would run aground relatively quickly and we would be looking for a white knight to take us on.

We couldn't muster the appetite or funds to take enough shares in HSL which ran for ages before Gordon came in. Not enough fans want it - by a distance

I think the circumstances are now very different and totally disagree with your statement that out club is too small for fan ownership or that we lack the expertise amongst our support to run a business.

[McHibby]

I absolutely love this. You're completely right about flipping this to a positive campaign. The hierarchy (of most clubs) are reluctant to have meaningful engagement with fans in "sack the board" mode - they already know what the fans objective is and how difficult it will be to win them round.

But a positive campaign is much more difficult for any owner to ignore. There is no plausible reason not to engage with fans proactively trying to work with the club for the club.

And, I still have my old Hands off Hibs t-shirt. I'll just score out the "off" and am good to go 😅

[tonyrougier123]

We went from just under 20% pre takeover (which was the stated % required for a board rep) to our current 15.4% after the dilution.

The board rep would’ve been handy,even just to know what is happening.
Meant to be hibbys on the board as well.

[Ronniekirk]

I'm a naturally cynical person but for me the question has always been;

Why does an American businessman with no real connections to Scotland, and no interest or connections to football or Hibs, want to buy Hibs?

That question has never been satisfactorily answered for me.

I'm not suggesting he's a crook or anything of that nature, however, I am cautious of the motives and I wonder what lengths would he go to to get his money back?

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who was it that did Due Diligence on this Guy from the Club when he was allowed to buy Hibs He must have persuaded them his intentions were good
Dempster is doing well with Queens Park proving that if you bring in the right people success can follow
But generating money aside everything else seems to have got worse due to his changes and poor appointments So in effect the extra money generated has been wasted
Do we stick with him hoping they appoint the right Director of Football and things will then turn ?
The problem now is it’s clear a majority of fans well disaffected and the good feeling we had after the Scottish Cup win has evaporated
Something has to change and Ron needs to front up instead of the current silence which just breeds more suspicion

[Winston Ingram]

Club should have been in fan ownership years ago in my opinion. If we truly are a family club, then it should be owned by the Hibs family. Not some corporate bigwig overseas.

Tbf, we tried that. Sir Tom Farmer offered us the chance to buy the club for below market value and was chased by folk wearing clown masks claiming it was a ponzi scheme.

[superfurryhibby]

I absolutely love this. You're completely right about flipping this to a positive campaign. The hierarchy (of most clubs) are reluctant to have meaningful engagement with fans in "sack the board" mode - they already know what the fans objective is and how difficult it will be to win them round.

But a positive campaign is much more difficult for any owner to ignore. There is no plausible reason not to engage with fans proactively trying to work with the club for the club.

And, I still have my old Hands off Hibs t-shirt. I'll just score out the "off" and am good to go 😅

There has to be a way of fan input being rewarded by something tangible. Why should we give him our money to improve his business, when he's already diluted that investment in the past and clearly isn't interested in anything but parting us from our cash?

I don't think fans are going to ever get on-board a positive campaign with the Gordon's owning the club under a structure like the current one.

[hibsforeurope]

A very good suggestion, a positive body to try to unite all hibs fans in a common goal.

Apart from the initial purchase hibs have been running themselves financially, with a few loans (govt covid loan and the recent £2m loan on htc). The club could have easily been fan owned and been in every bit as good a position now as under the Gordon’s.
I suspect it could be better off as the fans body would contribute money towards the club.

I’d be hugely in favour of supporting HOH if it meant change in ownership.

[GreenCastle]

Said for a long time we need something to galvanise the club and bring fans together.

HSL was fine but we need better.

Something more clear and community related that fans feel more part of the club.

I’m not against Ron but I am against the folk he’s hired to improve us.

It would need people to step up and start organising meetings and interest.

I’m 100% convinced if LD had been here longer with Ron and others we wouldn’t be in this state.

I also think more of a club membership rather than ST would work better.

[nickwhibs]

Some very good points raised here. I’m absolutely on board with working towards some kind of majority fan ownership.

[Alex Trager]

Is there appetite to restart the working together group within the fanbase? Or something similar?

[Daniel 1875]

Is there appetite to restart the working together group within the fanbase? Or something similar?

I think the bigger question is, is there appetite within the club to facilitate/engage with the fans like this again

[chippy]

It was probably the first real alarm bell I had with Gordon, his refusal to really engage with HSL. They hold shares on behalf of a not insignificant number of Hibs fans, are the largest minority shareholder and were at the time giving the club what essentially amounted to free money, straight out of the pockets of fans. Ponying up if you will. In fact one of his first acts was to dilute their shareholding. It should have been one of his first tasks to find common ground with them and not only solidify the relationship but try to grow it.

As fans we are in a pretty powerless position as individuals. Shouting and screaming about Gordon might make us feel better (it certainly works for me) but it will get us nowhere. Power lies in the collective. For a whole range of reasons HSL never really caught on with Hibs fans. It had a bad start with loud opposition, it never really picked up momentum and had long spells of silence. That's not disrespect to the guys volunteering their time to run it, Jim Adie in particular has worked tirelessly to keep it going but ultimately it's never really looked like am owner in waiting.

I would suggest it's time for a really strong rebrand. Change the name completely. HSL sounded cold and corporate, HS has never caught on as almost everyone still refers to HSL. Something like Hands on Hibs that draws inspiration from something as emotive as Hands Off Hibs might be a step in the right direction. Really spend time explaining fan ownership in terms everyone can understand. A lot of people seemed to just fundamentally misunderstand whilst others were deliberately obtuse and played the fool ('just look at threads on here to see what fan ownership would be like' or 'will we all be voting on who plays up front on Saturday'). Fan ownership still has a board, it srtill has a CEO, directors, a commercial team etc etc. It's a model used elsewhere and for me it's the only sustainable one for a club of our size in a league like Scotland. On that note show examples of successful fan ownership schemes and drive home that it's not only possible but desirable. The whole enterprise needs to look, act and sound more like ownership in waiting.

I've often asked what Ron Gordon is doing here. I never bought his PR fluff, my view was and is that he is here for no other reason than to make money. In that regards it doesn't have to be hostile; every business has a price, find out what his is for Hibs and work with him towards meeting it. I've often got the impression he isn't particularly thick skinned, at his first AGM he really bristled when asked if there were plans for any lasting tribute to STF, he did not like it one bit and was quick to dismiss the idea. He's also got very tetchy under some pretty soft questioning from the podcast guys (with no disrespect aimed at any of them, I know and like a few of them but these are never going to be the toughest interviews an owner faces). The reason I mention my worry that he is thin skinned is that as it stands I still don't believe he has any real nefarious motive for being here, he's just not very good at running a football club. Enough criticism and vitriol (no matter how much we feel it is merited) aimed at him and his son and that could change though, he has the power when it comes to Hibs and there are ways other than on field success to make money in and around Edinburgh.

At the AGM just after HSL was launched STF stood up and made an impassioned defence of his stewardship of the club. He was clearly livid at some of the accusations that had been aimed at him. He also stated that if Hibs fans really wanted their club back then he was offering it to them. At that time it seems not enough Hibs fans did want our club back. Given how many people say they feel disconnected, alienated or apathetic towards the current incarnation of Hibs maybe it's time to ask the question again. How much do we really want our club back?

Brilliant post PB. As an outline of a strategy it’s pretty good.

[chippy]

Tbf, we tried that. Sir Tom Farmer offered us the chance to buy the club for below market value and was chased by folk wearing clown masks claiming it was a ponzi scheme.

Ok mate, they were wrong and it helped stall HSL, but let’s move on together and as PB suggests re brand HSL as HoH or something else. But keep it very simple. Initially we’re after 50% +1 shares. Willing to go into partnership with investors, but we will be the majority shareholders and appoint a professional board. Input from investors will be considered.

[May21/05/216]

Tbf, we tried that. Sir Tom Farmer offered us the chance to buy the club for below market value and was chased by folk wearing clown masks claiming it was a ponzi scheme.Agree

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[Pretty Boy]

Another thing to consider is that there were and are wealthy Hibs fans who have certainly considered fronting up money before. Well prior to the Gordon takeover and at the height of the controversy, such as it was, around HSL there was a couple of meetings between a group of individuals informally dubbed the 'green knights'.

I don't think they were all too keen to deal with STF and he was broadly the same. Times have changed though and there may be renewed interest if something was to get off the ground.

[chippy]

There has to be a way of fan input being rewarded by something tangible. Why should we give him our money to improve his business, when he's already diluted that investment in the past and clearly isn't interested in anything but parting us from our cash?

I don't think fans are going to ever get on-board a positive campaign with the Gordon's owning the club under a structure like the current one.

Reading all the threads I don’t think th3 idea is to hand over our free money to the Gordons , but to expand HSL u dear a re brand and build up funds/ subscriptions to buy them out eventually. Shares for cash in big lump sums. If we could expand the numbers currently around 2000 at HSL to say 4 or 5 thousand we could perhaps do a deal with them

[AgentDaleCooper]

I think the bigger question is, is there appetite within the club to facilitate/engage with the fans like this again

IMO, part of the point is that we need to be ready to anticipate this when Ron realises he's in way over his head.

[blackpoolhibs]

I still don’t think Ron has anything but the best intention for Hibs.

However it is clear that his original strategy of buying young players, improving them and on selling them has not worked.

Hopefully he will come out and admit mistakes have been made, and outline his plan to get us on track.

Whether we like it or not HE is the man with the power, he literally owns the club

Can’t see how people marching with pitchforks and burning torches down Easter Road is going to help the situation.

But Ron needs to come out and tell the fans what his plan is, and soon.
I'm with you, I just think he's very nieve with regards to running a football club.And because he's a successful business it's hard for him to see where he has got it wrong, and even harder to get told where he's going wrong by a bunch of supporters like us.worrying times.

[LunasBoots]

Where is Ron, just appears right now it's just been left to Kensell and his son.

[Alex Trager]

I think the bigger question is, is there appetite within the club to facilitate/engage with the fans like this again

Perhaps it’s time to organise as a group and then reach out to the club so that we can be ready if they are reciprocal

[hibsforeurope]

IMO, part of the point is that we need to be ready to anticipate this when Ron realises he's in way over his head.

Agreed, something needs to be up and running read to step in when Ron decided he's had enough. leaving it until he's announced his intentions will likely be too late. He['s unlikely to be as accommodating as Sir Tom was in allowing time to HSL/Fans to buy shares by piecemeal.

[El Gubbz]

Hands on Hibs


Really interested in this development.


I am not 100% sure on where I stand on the best ownership model - fan ownership would certainly help the fan base come together to help steer the club forward but without a similar uptake to the Jambos’ FoH we could be struggling to attract the cash required to get the club where we want it to be. Although having said that, I can’t remember a time where we’ve relied on an owner to “pony up” as our recurring business model since Farmer took over has always been about sustainability - spending within our means.


The long term strategy of the owners and Kensell is something I think we all as fans can buy into ie. Attract more corporate cash = increased playing budget = more success. I am happy to praise the current regime on the progress they have made off the park, it appears we’re generating much more revenue and as a result we’ve beefed up the playing budget - superb, big tick against a major objective. However, when it comes to the bread and butter of a football club - the football team - those in charge have got every major decision wrong thus far.


Biggest issue for me in the last 18 months has been the naivety of all the decisions makers the club have entrusted to guide us on this journey. We’ve got a rookie football club owner, supported by a rookie CEO, supported by a rookie head of recruitment that at one time was supporting a rookie manager. I’m satisfied that they have learnt from some of their mistakes by appointing an experienced manager (although that’s yet to pay dividends - possibly because of his naivety towards the game up here) and announcing that they are in the market to appoint a Director of Football but do I have confidence the same people that have been doing all the hiring and firing will get this appointment right? Not really.


Behind every strategy there needs to be a thoroughly thought out path to success, with strong foundations to build on being at the heart of that - my concern with the current decision makers is that they seem to get Orange Juice on the jukebox ever 6 months and adopt the rip it up and start again approach - one bad transfer window seen Mathie binned and the Sporting Director role made obsolete, one bad run (and it was bad) for JR seen him sacked a week before a cup final, let’s not talk about Maloney, Johnson appointed and promised he’ll have full control of signings and now we’re in the market to overwrite that promise by bringing in a DoF - full circle to the structure Kensell inherited from Leeann Dempster, a structure working so effectively for our noisy neighbours.


Hands on Hibs doesn’t need to be a coup but there’s certainly need for a vehicle to bridge the gap between Club Execs and fans to improve scrutiny, communications and trust (possibly acting as a functional shadow cabinet - not the type we know from U.K. politics) so we can all have confidence that the club is moving in the right direction and we have the best people driving the club forward.


I’d be keen to be involved in future Hands on Hibs discussions to productively brainstorm a mission statement and scope out how as fans can help influence a brighter future for our football club

[Eaststand]

A very good suggestion, a positive body to try to unite all hibs fans in a common goal.

Apart from the initial purchase hibs have been running themselves financially, with a few loans (govt covid loan and the recent £2m loan on htc). The club could have easily been fan owned and been in every bit as good a position now as under the Gordon’s.
I suspect it could be better off as the fans body would contribute money towards the club.

I’d be hugely in favour of supporting HOH if it meant change in ownership.

I recall us all rallying round to resist the Mercer takeover bid and that resistance worked. The campaign was well led by a lot of people who unfortunately are no longer with us.

So in a nutshell yep, I'd def be in for this type of thing again to try and take our club back from our current absentee owner.

I'd even go as far as suggesting a leader for that campaign to bring our club back towards us fans, as it needs to be led by a well respected person.

We have a person, who posts on here, he communicates well, always impresses and he seems to find a decent, commonsense angle to all his posts.

In my humble opinion he has the attributes needed to galvanise our support for the campaign ahead.

Step forward Pretty Boy 👏🇳🇬

GGTTH

[superfurryhibby]

Reading all the threads I don’t think th3 idea is to hand over our free money to the Gordons , but to expand HSL u dear a re brand and build up funds/ subscriptions to buy them out eventually. Shares for cash in big lump sums. If we could expand the numbers currently around 2000 at HSL to say 4 or 5 thousand we could perhaps do a deal with them

Not going to happen under the Gordon's.



Agreed, something needs to be up and running read to step in when Ron decided he's had enough. leaving it until he's announced his intentions will likely be too late. He['s unlikely to be as accommodating as Sir Tom was in allowing time to HSL/Fans to buy shares by piecemeal...

Therein lies the challenge. Who knows how Gordon values the club and whether his assessment of it's monetary value if/when he sells will be realistic. I suppose he can say it's worth whatever he wants, whether anyone would ever pay that is another matter.

[Daniel 1875]

Agreed, something needs to be up and running read to step in when Ron decided he's had enough. leaving it until he's announced his intentions will likely be too late. He['s unlikely to be as accommodating as Sir Tom was in allowing time to HSL/Fans to buy shares by piecemeal.

HSL still has a sizeable number of fans contributing monthly, with the primary aim of protecting the 15.4% shareholding we currently have and growing this to achieve our goal of 25.1% ownership on behalf of the fans as and when this becomes possible.

Hibernian Supporters has never been about complete fan ownership, but it has always been about meaningful fan ownership and influence.

It’s driven by members, who voted to change the aims/articles at our last AGM, and it’ll continue to be shaped by the people who are part of it.

It seems unlikely supporters will be able to gather the financial strength to buy a majority stake in the club outright - if that is even the ambition of a majority of supporters - but it is possible to work together to bring more of the club into the hands of fans if and when Ron decides to sell.

hiberniansupporters.co.uk if you’re of a mind to join us

[hibsforeurope]

Not going to happen under the Gordon's.


..

Therein lies the challenge. Who knows how Gordon values the club and whether his assessment of it's monetary value if/when he sells will be realistic. I suppose he can say it's worth whatever he wants, whether anyone would ever pay that is another matter.

That will be the problem, if RG thinks he can make 3-4 times his initial investment, that wouldn't be realistic for anyone, let alone a fans takeover. I'm not convinced, as a football club, were in any better position now as we were in 2019.

[AgentDaleCooper]

From what I've gathered in this thread so far, the things that stick out to me are:

1 - what were the things that prevented HSL from really taking off the first time round?

2 - why did some people take to it so badly, decide it was a ponzie scheme etc.? (please note - I'm not asking to be told 'because they were idiots', i'm asking to have their perspective, generously interpreted, explained to me)

3 - is there some way that something like a campaign group could be set up externally to but along side HSL/hiberniansupporters? The reasons for this being a) some people seemed to have an issue with it the first time round and b) it might jeopardise their hard earned position as a significant share holder, motivate further dilution or something, etc.


really not looking for this to turn into a destructive debate, rather a constructive conversation...if it would avoid old mud getting hurled about, happy to be PM's answers! :aok:

[jakeshibs]

We're going nowhere fast, and the ownership really seems to be a big part of that problem. Sacking LJ might paper over the cracks, but it really does seem like he doesn't know how to run a football club.

Is it time for a positive campaign, not to 'sack the board', but to recommence the process of passing ownership over to the fans? Ultimately, it's our club.

Ron might not be happy with the idea initially, but it seems obvious to me that he's going to get fed up at some point. When this happens, selling the club to the fans would be a win-win, with him leaving with his head held high, and us having our club back. Perhaps if we start campaigning for this sooner rather than later, it might speed up the process...?

how are we funding it?

[Iain G]

Tbf, we tried that. Sir Tom Farmer offered us the chance to buy the club for below market value and was chased by folk wearing clown masks claiming it was a ponzi scheme.

Pia and Kane are just naturally clowns, no masks needed

[AgentDaleCooper]

how are we funding it?

Presumably any campaign thing like this starts out on a voluntary basis?

[hibsforeurope]

HSL still has a sizeable number of fans contributing monthly, with the primary aim of protecting the 15.4% shareholding we currently have and growing this to achieve our goal of 25.1% ownership on behalf of the fans as and when this becomes possible.

Hibernian Supporters has never been about complete fan ownership, but it has always been about meaningful fan ownership and influence.

It’s driven by members, who voted to change the aims/articles at our last AGM, and it’ll continue to be shaped by the people who are part of it.

It seems unlikely supporters will be able to gather the financial strength to buy a majority stake in the club outright - if that is even the ambition of a majority of supporters - but it is possible to work together to bring more of the club into the hands of fans if and when Ron decides to sell.

hiberniansupporters.co.uk if you’re of a mind to join us

I'm a member of HSL/HS and fully agree with the principle, i just think things have grown and there is a need for some bigger ambitions.

Whether this is a rebranding of HS to incorporate fan ownership or HS become part of something bigger along with individual shareholders joining forces.

[leith lynx]

I recall us all rallying round to resist the Mercer takeover bid and that resistance worked. The campaign was well led by a lot of people who unfortunately are no longer with us.

So in a nutshell yep, I'd def be in for this type of thing again to try and take our club back from our current absentee owner.

I'd even go as far as suggesting a leader for that campaign to bring our club back towards us fans, as it needs to be led by a well respected person.

We have a person, who posts on here, he communicates well, always impresses and he seems to find a decent, commonsense angle to all his posts.

In my humble opinion he has the attributes needed to galvanise our support for the campaign ahead.

Step forward Pretty Boy 👏🇳🇬

GGTTH
Seconded.

[leith lynx]

Another thing to consider is that there were and are wealthy Hibs fans who have certainly considered fronting up money before. Well prior to the Gordon takeover and at the height of the controversy, such as it was, around HSL there was a couple of meetings between a group of individuals informally dubbed the 'green knights'.

I don't think they were all too keen to deal with STF and he was broadly the same. Times have changed though and there may be renewed interest if something was to get off the ground.
Interesting, we need something like this to happen (before it's too late)

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Seconded.

Thirded

[Pretty Boy]

I recall us all rallying round to resist the Mercer takeover bid and that resistance worked. The campaign was well led by a lot of people who unfortunately are no longer with us.

So in a nutshell yep, I'd def be in for this type of thing again to try and take our club back from our current absentee owner.

I'd even go as far as suggesting a leader for that campaign to bring our club back towards us fans, as it needs to be led by a well respected person.

We have a person, who posts on here, he communicates well, always impresses and he seems to find a decent, commonsense angle to all his posts.

In my humble opinion he has the attributes needed to galvanise our support for the campaign ahead.

Step forward Pretty Boy 👏🇳🇬

GGTTH

If I had the time, energy and wasn't hated by a decent number of our fans then I'd be the perfect man for the job:greengrin

[sleeping giant]

If I had the time, energy and wasn't hated by a decent number of our fans then I'd be the perfect man for the job:greengrin

😂

[Bronson]

I can get on board with the idea of fan ownership but I don’t believe we have a strong enough contingent of hardcore supporters that would contribute monthly.

Hearts (obvious comparison) have what, 10-15k monthly contributors through FoH? We’d be lucky to get half that. They may have benefitted slightly from their do or die situation 10 years ago but we’re not in that position.

I agree something needs to change though.

[Eaststand]

If I had the time, energy and wasn't hated by a decent number of our fans then I'd be the perfect man for the job:greengrin

I doubt if there is a person anywhere who would get 100% support from our fanbase, that's just the nature of these things.

However, I reckon you'd be a very good choice for heading a committee, directing the strategy and delegating tasks to folks with more time on their hands than you have.

Others seem to think like I do 😉

GGTTH

[NAE NOOKIE]

If someone can answer me this question I'll happily get on board with the fan ownership idea, and I say this as someone who still contributes to HSL.

Hearts currently have around 8000 members putting money into their fan owned club every year. Even with that more than once over the last few years they have relied on 'gifts' amounting to millions of pound from one or two 'fans' in order to avoid a negative balance sheet.

What happens when there is no minted fan gifting millions, there is no wonder kid to cash in on and results on the pitch have fallen off and there is lets say a 5 million quid deficit needing addressed just to break even. They have no rich owner to hand over the cash, not even to give the club a loan or guarantee a loan from a bank from his personal fortune, all that on top of crowds dropping off coz of bad results?

5 million quid divided by 8000 members is £625 from each member over and above what they pay each month and the cost of season tickets etc.

The only way to avoid that scenario is to accept you are a club for the sake of it and always balance the books no matter how that affects the quality of the team you can put on the pitch. It is a better bet than not that one of these days Hearts are going to face this scenario. As a club and fanbase who expect, demand, competitiveness at the top end of the league and in the cups, how will they get out of this hole.

More to the point and the question I need answered ........... How would we?

[Lago]

If someone can answer me this question I'll happily get on board with the fan ownership idea, and I say this as someone who still contributes to HSL.

Hearts currently have around 8000 members putting money into their fan owned club every year. Even with that more than once over the last few years they have relied on 'gifts' amounting to millions of pound from one or two 'fans' in order to avoid a negative balance sheet.

What happens when there is no minted fan gifting millions, there is no wonder kid to cash in on and results on the pitch have fallen off and there is lets say a 5 million quid deficit needing addressed just to break even. They have no rich owner to hand over the cash, not even to give the club a loan or guarantee a loan from a bank from his personal fortune, all that on top of crowds dropping off coz of bad results?

5 million quid divided by 8000 members is £625 from each member over and above what they pay each month and the cost of season tickets etc.

The only way to avoid that scenario is to accept you are a club for the sake of it and always balance the books no matter how that affects the quality of the team you can put on the pitch. It is a better bet than not that one of these days Hearts are going to face this scenario. As a club and fanbase who expect, demand, competitiveness at the top end of the league and in the cups, how will they get out of this hole.

More to the point and the question I need answered ........... How would we?
Don't think we would or could

[hibsforeurope]

If someone can answer me this question I'll happily get on board with the fan ownership idea, and I say this as someone who still contributes to HSL.

Hearts currently have around 8000 members putting money into their fan owned club every year. Even with that more than once over the last few years they have relied on 'gifts' amounting to millions of pound from one or two 'fans' in order to avoid a negative balance sheet.

What happens when there is no minted fan gifting millions, there is no wonder kid to cash in on and results on the pitch have fallen off and there is lets say a 5 million quid deficit needing addressed just to break even. They have no rich owner to hand over the cash, not even to give the club a loan or guarantee a loan from a bank from his personal fortune, all that on top of crowds dropping off coz of bad results?

5 million quid divided by 8000 members is £625 from each member over and above what they pay each month and the cost of season tickets etc.

The only way to avoid that scenario is to accept you are a club for the sake of it and always balance the books no matter how that affects the quality of the team you can put on the pitch. It is a better bet than not that one of these days Hearts are going to face this scenario. As a club and fanbase who expect, demand, competitiveness at the top end of the league and in the cups, how will they get out of this hole.

More to the point and the question I need answered ........... How would we?

We have been living within our means for the last few seasons, apart from gifts from HSL and a couple of loans, in that time we've bene told out playing budget has gone up (not sure to what levels). we're not a million miles away but we have wasted the majority of this increased budget. The club is in a position that it runs it's self financially.

The initial purchase will be the stumbling block, if any bid was relying solely on fans monthly contributions. There would need to be an 'Anne Budge type' person or consortium to front up the idea.

[Torto7]

I'm a naturally cynical person but for me the question has always been;

Why does an American businessman with no real connections to Scotland, and no interest or connections to football or Hibs, want to buy Hibs?

That question has never been satisfactorily answered for me.

I'm not suggesting he's a crook or anything of that nature, however, I am cautious of the motives and I wonder what lengths would he go to to get his money back?

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

Not cynical xenophobic and the criticisms of the Gordons starts and ends there. He has ties to Scotland both family and business wise and has been coming to Scotland for years. He's a wealthy man who likes sport. He's not wealthy enough to own an MLS side so a football club in a country he has family ties to was perfect for him.

He's no crook. His banking operation in the States is one of the most ethical ones you could find.

RG had done nothing wrong other than trust others to spend his money wisely and been let down for it.

He retains my support 100%.

The charlatan in the dug out doesn't though and the staffing levels as Easter Road need looked at. Too many 'football' experts who contribute sweet FA. People are just looking for things that don't exist. The club was a crumbling shambles towards the end of the Farmer/Petrie era and the investments at Easter Road and East Mains are very impressive.

[hibsforeurope]

Not cynical xenophobic and the criticisms of the Gordons starts and ends there. He has ties to Scotland both family and business wise and has been coming to Scotland for years. He's a wealthy man who likes sport. He's not wealthy enough to own an MLS side so a football club in a country he has family ties to was perfect for him.

He's no crook. His banking operation in the States is one of the most ethical ones you could find.

RG had done nothing wrong other than trust others to spend his money wisely and been let down for it.

He retains my support 100%.

The charlatan in the dug out doesn't though and the staffing levels as Easter Road need looked at. Too many 'football' experts who contribute sweet FA. People are just looking for things that don't exist. The club was a crumbling shambles towards the end of the Farmer/Petrie era and the investments at Easter Road and East Mains are very impressive.

we have to go back to the time of the purchase to see what he spent his money on. Since then it been money Hibs have generated, essentially he's wasted OUR money.

[Pretty Boy]

Not cynical xenophobic and the criticisms of the Gordons starts and ends there. He has ties to Scotland both family and business wise and has been coming to Scotland for years. He's a wealthy man who likes sport. He's not wealthy enough to own an MLS side so a football club in a country he has family ties to was perfect for him.

He's no crook. His banking operation in the States is one of the most ethical ones you could find.

RG had done nothing wrong other than trust others to spend his money wisely and been let down for it.

He retains my support 100%.

The charlatan in the dug out doesn't though and the staffing levels as Easter Road need looked at. Too many 'football' experts who contribute sweet FA. People are just looking for things that don't exist. The club was a crumbling shambles towards the end of the Farmer/Petrie era and the investments at Easter Road and East Mains are very impressive.

So he's done nothing wrong apart from appointing or allowing others to appoint the wrong people to run key areas within the business?

[Hibs4185]

Quite simply, HSL has to build up enough capital so if it were ever to reach a point where RG wanted to sell then HSL would be in a position to do so.

HSL should be a vehicle for fans to pay into so that it becomes a fail safe for the clubs and us fans

[Torto7]

So he's done nothing wrong apart from appointing or allowing others to appoint the wrong people to run key areas within the business?

OK he's done that wrong but it's hardly worthy of the character assassination we see on here, he's naïve to how football operates and the pending DOF role means he's big enough to admit it. Why is his nationality constantly mentioned on here?

Petrie was woeful at football appointments as well. LD had zero corporate skills. Nothings ever perfect but RG has boosted the budget at Hibs which is what he said he'd do.

[hibbydad]

Quite simply, HSL has to build up enough capital so if it were ever to reach a point where RG wanted to sell then HSL would be in a position to do so.

HSL should be a vehicle for fans to pay into so that it becomes a fail safe for the clubs and us fans
You are so right if ever there was a time that Hibs fans needed to contribute to HSL IT IS NOW

[NAE NOOKIE]

We have been living within our means for the last few seasons, apart from gifts from HSL and a couple of loans, in that time we've bene told out playing budget has gone up (not sure to what levels). we're not a million miles away but we have wasted the majority of this increased budget. The club is in a position that it runs it's self financially.

The initial purchase will be the stumbling block, if any bid was relying solely on fans monthly contributions. There would need to be an 'Anne Budge type' person or consortium to front up the idea.

In my scenario loans are off the table, what collateral apart from the stadium would we have?

We are also just about in the situation I have placed Hearts into in my far from unrealistic scenario. We have spent on players, but it hasn't worked and our crowds are about to fall off a cliff with folk predicting a drop off of at least 2000 ST holders for next season. We do not have a player worth over a million quid to sell and we are relying on the owner to find some way to fund at least 5 new up for it and ready to go players of decent quality, because that's the minimum we need for next season.

We are paying more in wages than we ever have and we have a massive squad, there is every chance we will show an unhealthy balance sheet in the next few years if our results on the park continue to be as bad. We have the hope that the owner will dig into his pocket to address the situation and if not find a new owner who will. Not an option if you are a fan owned club.

So my question remains ...... How would a club with 8000 members, probably less in a fan owned Hibs scenario address the situation of a deficit of millions on the balance sheet, short of massive cuts to the number and quality of players it can employ, leading to a never ending spiral of only just surviving failure?

This might sound like me painting a worse case scenario, but if anybody is serious about fan ownership the worst case is exactly the point you should be starting from, because if you don't you are an idiot.

[James Stephen]

If someone can answer me this question I'll happily get on board with the fan ownership idea, and I say this as someone who still contributes to HSL.

Hearts currently have around 8000 members putting money into their fan owned club every year. Even with that more than once over the last few years they have relied on 'gifts' amounting to millions of pound from one or two 'fans' in order to avoid a negative balance sheet.

What happens when there is no minted fan gifting millions, there is no wonder kid to cash in on and results on the pitch have fallen off and there is lets say a 5 million quid deficit needing addressed just to break even. They have no rich owner to hand over the cash, not even to give the club a loan or guarantee a loan from a bank from his personal fortune, all that on top of crowds dropping off coz of bad results?

5 million quid divided by 8000 members is £625 from each member over and above what they pay each month and the cost of season tickets etc.

The only way to avoid that scenario is to accept you are a club for the sake of it and always balance the books no matter how that affects the quality of the team you can put on the pitch. It is a better bet than not that one of these days Hearts are going to face this scenario. As a club and fanbase who expect, demand, competitiveness at the top end of the league and in the cups, how will they get out of this hole.

More to the point and the question I need answered ........... How would we?

I think this is a bit of a myth.

Hearts havent relied on their rich backers to keep them in the black, they have spent more than they could have otherwise afforded because they have rich backers.

If the rich backers hadnt of been giving them the money, they wouldnt have spent in.

Basically they have cut their cloth (or let it out?) to suit their income.

[James Stephen]

OK he's done that wrong but it's hardly worthy of the character assassination we see on here, he's naïve to how football operates and the pending DOF role means he's big enough to admit it. Why is his nationality constantly mentioned on here?

Petrie was woeful at football appointments as well. LD had zero corporate skills. Nothings ever perfect but RG has boosted the budget at Hibs which is what he said he'd do.

Because his nationality a) implies an entirely different outlook on what a sports team is, is for, and how it should be run and b) it makes his motives for wanting to own Hibs even less clear and more questionable.

[hibsforeurope]

In my scenario loans are off the table, what collateral apart from the stadium would we have?

We are also just about in the situation I have placed Hearts into in my far from unrealistic scenario. We have spent on players, but it hasn't worked and our crowds are about to fall off a cliff with folk predicting a drop off of at least 2000 ST holders for next season. We do not have a player worth over a million quid to sell and we are relying on the owner to find some way to fund at least 5 new up for it and ready to go players of decent quality, because that's the minimum we need for next season.

We are paying more in wages than we ever have and we have a massive squad, there is every chance we will show an unhealthy balance sheet in the next few years if our results on the park continue to be as bad. We have the hope that the owner will dig into his pocket to address the situation and if not find a new owner who will. Not an option if you are a fan owned club.

So my question remains ...... How would a club with 8000 members, probably less in a fan owned Hibs scenario address the situation of a deficit of millions on the balance sheet, short of massive cuts to the number and quality of players it can employ, leading to a never ending spiral of only just surviving failure?

This might sound like me painting a worse case scenario, but if anybody is serious about fan ownership the worst case is exactly the point you should be starting from, because if you don't you are an idiot.

I'm not sure what FOH contributes per season, say £1M, that is still more than our last accounts showed for investment. FOH have also paid off the 'loan' to Budge, around £6M, and contributed significantly to the Mega stand and new pitch. These outlays are probably (i've no real figures) around the contributions made by Anderson.

We don't have any real need to develop infrastructure at present. The squad is an issue but were told by LJ that it will take 10 stages and multiple windows to put right, this to me sounds like it will be fixed as and when we generate money.

If Hibs were fan owned we'd have the income the club generates through hospitality. I think it would also give fans a bit more sense of belonging and likely boost ticket sales. There would also be the monthly contributions coming in to the club to top up funds.

We're never going to challenge the Glasgow two as a fan owned club but neither is anyone else in Scotland.

It's not as wild a suggestion to become fan owned and given the right input and marketing it would work. but needs to be sold right.

[HarpOnHibee]

Our fanbase is too small for it. It's not united, it's not organised and it's not qualified to run the football club.

But the Hearts fanbase is?

If they can do it, we can do it. If we're actually prepared to drop the utterly pathetic inferiority complex.

[Jones28]

I can get on board with the idea of fan ownership but I don’t believe we have a strong enough contingent of hardcore supporters that would contribute monthly.

Hearts (obvious comparison) have what, 10-15k monthly contributors through FoH? We’d be lucky to get half that. They may have benefitted slightly from their do or die situation 10 years ago but we’re not in that position.

I agree something needs to change though.

It’s half that number.

[HarpOnHibee]

If I had the time, energy and wasn't hated by a decent number of our fans then I'd be the perfect man for the job:greengrin

We're all hated by a decent number of our fans. We must be one of the most divided fan bases in recent times. Even more reason to bring the fans together towards a common cause. Because the current arrangement only serves to divide us even further.

[superfurryhibby]

It’s half that number.

I believe that they contributed £800,000 last year. I had a wee look at their website. They say they have raised over £14,000,000 since they started.

[Hibbyradge]

If I had the time, energy and wasn't hated by a decent number of our fans then I'd be the perfect man for the job:greengrin

Whoever did a job like that would be hated by a large proportion of the fans in no time at all.

[Jones28]

I believe that they contributed £800,000 last year. I had a wee look at their website. They say they have raised over £14,000,000 since they started.

A phenomenal effort. Something we could have done if people weren’t so determined to torpedo it from the outset. Stupid *****.

[superfurryhibby]

A phenomenal effort. Something we could have done if people weren’t so determined to torpedo it from the outset. Stupid *****.

Yep, the morons in our support definitely put a dampener on our own efforts. Hearts scheme is not just straightforward donation, they are incentivised. I couldn't bring myself to read more.

The 800,000 figure from last year came from elsewhere, so may not accurate.

[bigwheel]

Yep, the morons in our support definitely put a dampener on our own efforts. Hearts scheme is not just straightforward donation, they are incentivised. I couldn't bring myself to read more.

The 800,000 figure from last year came from elsewhere, so may not accurate.

Think it may well be more than that ..think they average around 120k per month donations …

[Jones28]

Yep, the morons in our support definitely put a dampener on our own efforts. Hearts scheme is not just straightforward donation, they are incentivised. I couldn't bring myself to read more.

The 800,000 figure from last year came from elsewhere, so may not accurate.

I also remember that they had to, or they might have lost their club. It’s a something the Hibs support did and would do again.

Paul Kane and that tit Pia are notably very quiet on the subject now.

[son of haggart]

Just for the sake of accuracy the Foundation of Hearts has between 8,000 and 9,000 monthly contributors and raised £141,683 last month . The figures are fairly steady so it adds around £1.7 million per annum to the budget (total contributions are just under £15 million since it started nearly 10 years ago).

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

If anyone is serious about fan ownership and is looking to start something to set this motion, I’d be more than happy to help in any capacity I can. In my opinion, this needs to be completely separate to HSL, it needs to be a clean break from the previous regime which HSL were a part of. The way the Gordon’s have taken this once fine club backwards so quickly is inexcusable and we need change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chippy]

Quite simply, HSL has to build up enough capital so if it were ever to reach a point where RG wanted to sell then HSL would be in a position to do so.

HSL should be a vehicle for fans to pay into so that it becomes a fail safe for the clubs and us fans

I agree, but it could do with being re branded and re launched. ‘ Hands on Hibs’ would be a perfect re brand with its history, etc

[Jones28]

If anyone is serious about fan ownership and is looking to start something to set this motion, I’d be more than happy to help in any capacity I can. In my opinion, this needs to be completely separate to HSL, it needs to be a clean break from the previous regime which HSL were a part of. The way the Gordon’s have taken this once fine club backwards so quickly is inexcusable and we need change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Admirable you’re putting yourself forward but the last thing we need is several different groups and any fragmentation of the support. IMO it should all be done under a rebranded HSL banner who already have a stake in the club.

[007]

If I had the time, energy and wasn't hated by a decent number of our fans then I'd be the perfect man for the job:greengrin

Stop it, that's not true. You've got plenty of time and energy. 😀

[Daniel 1875]

I agree, but it could do with being re branded and re launched. ‘ Hands on Hibs’ would be a perfect re brand with its history, etc

‘Hands on Hibs’ is/was a campaign group back in 2015 - perhaps some of the Ponzi scheme nonsense came from them. They’ve still got a twitter account.

[Pretty Boy]

‘Hands on Hibs’ is/was a campaign group back in 2015 - perhaps some of the Ponzi scheme nonsense came from them. They’ve still got a twitter account.

I think the original Hands on Hibs predates that by quite some time and goes back to around the time of the 'great adventure' season.

[Hibees1973]

Agree 100% that a good football club owner should engage with the support. Not just send out the odd questionnaire and have the occasional forum.

My feeling though is that we would have to be in a lot worse place financially and league position to get thousands of Hibs supporters to back fan ownership or to get a movement/organisation in place to put serious pressure on Ron. Them over the road were on their knees before they took any action.

At present, it's general apathy just now and sadly an acceptance that we are on a downward spiral similar to 2012-2014.

Ron has zero affinity to Hibs and we are his toy. I've seen him bristle and give condescending responses when criticised which are not great characteristics for an owner to have. One thing that annoys me is when people say 'oh but Ron has the clubs' interest at heart'. This is just patronising and given the mess he has created is inconsequential.

He needs removed now or a white knight to come riding into ER and help us out.

[chippy]

Agree 100% that a good football club owner should engage with the support. Not just send out the odd questionnaire and have the occasional forum.

My feeling though is that we would have to be in a lot worse place financially and league position to get thousands of Hibs supporters to back fan ownership or to get a movement/organisation in place to put serious pressure on Ron. Them over the road were on their knees before they took any action.

At present, it's general apathy just now and sadly an acceptance that we are on a downward spiral similar to 2012-2014.

Ron has zero affinity to Hibs and we are his toy. I've seen him bristle and give condescending responses when criticised which are not great characteristics for an owner to have. One thing that annoys me is when people say 'oh but Ron has the clubs' interest at heart'. This is just patronising and given the mess he has created is inconsequential.

He needs removed now or a white knight to come riding into ER and help us out.
Nothing wrong with preparing as things could get a whole lot worse very quickly.

[Hibs90]

Dunno if anyone else was watching but Carragher and Neville were just debating the situation at Everton, a lot of what they said was very familiar.

In particular Neville’s point about identity. Worth a watch back when it appears on YouTube.

[leith lynx]

I think the original Hands on Hibs predates that by quite some time and goes back to around the time of the 'great adventure' season.

Correct, can remember a meeting in Portobello Town Hall in the late 1990's.

[hibsforeurope]

Dunno if anyone else was watching but Carragher and Neville were just debating the situation at Everton, a lot of what they said was very familiar.

In particular Neville’s point about identity. Worth a watch back when it appears on YouTube.

It seems Everton’s issues are similar to ours.

[McD]

Agree 100% that a good football club owner should engage with the support. Not just send out the odd questionnaire and have the occasional forum.

My feeling though is that we would have to be in a lot worse place financially and league position to get thousands of Hibs supporters to back fan ownership or to get a movement/organisation in place to put serious pressure on Ron. Them over the road were on their knees before they took any action.

At present, it's general apathy just now and sadly an acceptance that we are on a downward spiral similar to 2012-2014.

Ron has zero affinity to Hibs and we are his toy. I've seen him bristle and give condescending responses when criticised which are not great characteristics for an owner to have. One thing that annoys me is when people say 'oh but Ron has the clubs' interest at heart'. This is just patronising and given the mess he has created is inconsequential.

He needs removed now or a white knight to come riding into ER and help us out.


how do you suggest this happens? Any way of removing him requires him to agree

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Admirable you’re putting yourself forward but the last thing we need is several different groups and any fragmentation of the support. IMO it should all be done under a rebranded HSL banner who already have a stake in the club.

I can see the benefit of that, fair enough. For me the main priority though needs to be achieving a 50%+1 ownership model like zee Germans. I’m not sure if HSL’s current members and leadership are going to be keen on that idea or not. On that topic I’m not even sure who is fronting HSL at the moment? Publicity is something they struggled to achieve in the past imo and that’s something that’ll need to be rethought as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NAE NOOKIE]

OK fan ownership.

Lets say we could raise the 7 to 10 million quid it would take to buy Ron Gordon out through the efforts of individual fans, HSL, those shadowy figures Pretty Boy mentioned who were allegedly looking to buy the club before RG got the nod and some generous donations from our celeb fans like the Murrays, the Proclaimers, Dougray Scott and mental Hibby Irvine Welsh. All of whom I'm sure would be willing to 'pony up' in the sure and certain knowledge they would have no control of the club as individuals.

The next step I presume would be to reach at least the 8000 contributors Hearts have, paying at least £10 a month for the privilege giving the club a minimum income of £80,000 a month. That from a smaller fan base and with nothing more to galvanise them than a poor team on the park and an owner who has lost the confidence of roughly 50% of the support ... that's a long way from the motivation of having to save your club from oblivion.

I seriously am not trying to be a smart arse when I point out that this is a club that could barely shift half its allocation for a Scottish cup semi final derby match 40 miles along the road because folk didn't think it could win the game. In what world do folk think 'fans' so easily prepared to chuck their support for the club in such a huge match would be willing to commit to contributing a minimum of £10 a month and more pertinently be prepared to keep it going if the club wasn't performing to their satisfaction on the park?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but that's how it is as far as I can see.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

OK fan ownership.

Lets say we could raise the 7 to 10 million quid it would take to buy Ron Gordon out through the efforts of individual fans, HSL, those shadowy figures Pretty Boy mentioned who were allegedly looking to buy the club before RG got the nod and some generous donations from our celeb fans like the Murrays, the Proclaimers, Dougray Scott and mental Hibby Irvine Welsh. All of whom I'm sure would be willing to 'pony up' in the sure and certain knowledge they would have no control of the club as individuals.

The next step I presume would be to reach at least the 8000 contributors Hearts have, paying at least £10 a month for the privilege giving the club a minimum income of £80,000 a month. That from a smaller fan base and with nothing more to galvanise them than a poor team on the park and an owner who has lost the confidence of roughly 50% of the support ... that's a long way from the motivation of having to save your club from oblivion.

I seriously am not trying to be a smart arse when I point out that this is a club that could barely shift half its allocation for a Scottish cup semi final derby match 40 miles along the road because folk didn't think it could win the game. In what world do folk think 'fans' so easily prepared to chuck their support for the club in such a huge match would be willing to commit to contributing a minimum of £10 a month and more pertinently be prepared to keep it going if the club wasn't performing to their satisfaction on the park?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but that's how it is as far as I can see.

Why not? We have x amount of season ticket holders that renew every season without fail. What difference is an extra tenner a month to ST holders when it means they’d be members of the fans group in control of the club? This fans group should be run like a democracy too so that with them having that 50+1 stake in the club what the majority of fans want is what happens. These people would genuinely have a say in how the club is operating, I’d pay more than a tenner a month for that any day.


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[Jones28]

OK fan ownership.

Lets say we could raise the 7 to 10 million quid it would take to buy Ron Gordon out through the efforts of individual fans, HSL, those shadowy figures Pretty Boy mentioned who were allegedly looking to buy the club before RG got the nod and some generous donations from our celeb fans like the Murrays, the Proclaimers, Dougray Scott and mental Hibby Irvine Welsh. All of whom I'm sure would be willing to 'pony up' in the sure and certain knowledge they would have no control of the club as individuals.

The next step I presume would be to reach at least the 8000 contributors Hearts have, paying at least £10 a month for the privilege giving the club a minimum income of £80,000 a month. That from a smaller fan base and with nothing more to galvanise them than a poor team on the park and an owner who has lost the confidence of roughly 50% of the support ... that's a long way from the motivation of having to save your club from oblivion.

I seriously am not trying to be a smart arse when I point out that this is a club that could barely shift half its allocation for a Scottish cup semi final derby match 40 miles along the road because folk didn't think it could win the game. In what world do folk think 'fans' so easily prepared to chuck their support for the club in such a huge match would be willing to commit to contributing a minimum of £10 a month and more pertinently be prepared to keep it going if the club wasn't performing to their satisfaction on the park?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but that's how it is as far as I can see.


Lets just make it a round £10m to buy the entirety of Gordons share in the club, I think the only way to be 50.1% fan owned would be for HSL - who already own 15% I believe - to be willing to buy the remaining 35.1% of Gordons chunk of the club for £3.5m.

However, I don't see where that leaves Gordon as a shareholder. What's his incentive to then back the club and continue to put money in? If he says it's all or nothing there's no way we'd be able to generate the cash to buy the £10m required to buy the club out. We'd need major backing from a single investor who would carry the balance of shares, with HSL holding the 50.1% and the other smattering of shares held by supporters - does anyone know what that number is?

[McGruber]

OK fan ownership.

Lets say we could raise the 7 to 10 million quid it would take to buy Ron Gordon out through the efforts of individual fans, HSL, those shadowy figures Pretty Boy mentioned who were allegedly looking to buy the club before RG got the nod and some generous donations from our celeb fans like the Murrays, the Proclaimers, Dougray Scott and mental Hibby Irvine Welsh. All of whom I'm sure would be willing to 'pony up' in the sure and certain knowledge they would have no control of the club as individuals.

The next step I presume would be to reach at least the 8000 contributors Hearts have, paying at least £10 a month for the privilege giving the club a minimum income of £80,000 a month. That from a smaller fan base and with nothing more to galvanise them than a poor team on the park and an owner who has lost the confidence of roughly 50% of the support ... that's a long way from the motivation of having to save your club from oblivion.

I seriously am not trying to be a smart arse when I point out that this is a club that could barely shift half its allocation for a Scottish cup semi final derby match 40 miles along the road because folk didn't think it could win the game. In what world do folk think 'fans' so easily prepared to chuck their support for the club in such a huge match would be willing to commit to contributing a minimum of £10 a month and more pertinently be prepared to keep it going if the club wasn't performing to their satisfaction on the park?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but that's how it is as far as I can see.

Yeah. Great idea in principle but a complete non runner

[AgentDaleCooper]

OK fan ownership.

Lets say we could raise the 7 to 10 million quid it would take to buy Ron Gordon out through the efforts of individual fans, HSL, those shadowy figures Pretty Boy mentioned who were allegedly looking to buy the club before RG got the nod and some generous donations from our celeb fans like the Murrays, the Proclaimers, Dougray Scott and mental Hibby Irvine Welsh. All of whom I'm sure would be willing to 'pony up' in the sure and certain knowledge they would have no control of the club as individuals.

The next step I presume would be to reach at least the 8000 contributors Hearts have, paying at least £10 a month for the privilege giving the club a minimum income of £80,000 a month. That from a smaller fan base and with nothing more to galvanise them than a poor team on the park and an owner who has lost the confidence of roughly 50% of the support ... that's a long way from the motivation of having to save your club from oblivion.

I seriously am not trying to be a smart arse when I point out that this is a club that could barely shift half its allocation for a Scottish cup semi final derby match 40 miles along the road because folk didn't think it could win the game. In what world do folk think 'fans' so easily prepared to chuck their support for the club in such a huge match would be willing to commit to contributing a minimum of £10 a month and more pertinently be prepared to keep it going if the club wasn't performing to their satisfaction on the park?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but that's how it is as far as I can see.

I think this perspective is sort of part of a self-fulfilling prophecy that a lot of hibs fans have. It's based on experience, yet yields absolutely nothing. It's sort of like a depressed person waiting for a cathartic catastrophe or someone to come and save them rather than helping themselves.

Positivity is as infectious as negativity, it just takes a bit of effort to get it going in the face of nay-sayers.

[McGruber]

I think this perspective is sort of part of a self-fulfilling prophecy that a lot of hibs fans have. It's based on experience, yet yields absolutely nothing. It's sort of like a depressed person waiting for a cathartic catastrophe or someone to come and save them rather than helping themselves.

Positivity is as infectious as negativity, it just takes a bit of effort to get it going in the face of nay-sayers.

How would it be funded - the initial buyout and ongoing year on year? Lots of strategy talk but all comes down to money at the end of the day. Where's it coming from?

We launched HSL and it never took off. People had the choice, some chose to get on board others didn't see the need with the club being owned by Gordon.

Lots of number crunching into what Hearts are doing but end of the day their FOH was fuelled by that or oblivion, no choice. They backed it superbly.

That superb backing from a larger support however wasn't enough. It is underpinned by investors.

Investors one thing - they want something back for their investment but having won the lottery with this Anderson backing them with regular millions in donations they are where they are.

Maybe there are philanthropists just waiting to gift Hibs millions of pounds every year we don't know about.

[Pretty Boy]

Yeah. Great idea in principle but a complete non runner

It's not really a non runner though.

Hearts, Motherwell, St Mirren, Clyde, Annan, Stirling Albion Wimbledon, Berwick Rangers, Chesterfield are all majority supporter owned whilst Accrington Stanley, Grimsby, Luton and York City all have significant minority fan ownership. Morton and Patrick Thistle are likely to join the former group soon.

Abroad you have the likes of Panathinaikos who have 55% fan ownership on a one member, one vote system. The likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atheltic Bilbao and Osasuna still operate on the 'socios' members system.

That's a wide range of clubs at varying levels with a variety of different structures and percentages owned by fans.

It's not easy but it's achievable and the above is ample evidence of that.

[Pretty Boy]

How would it be funded - the initial buyout and ongoing year on year? Lots of strategy talk but all comes down to money at the end of the day. Where's it coming from?

We launched HSL and it never took off. People had the choice, some chose to get on board others didn't see the need with the club being owned by Gordon.

Lots of number crunching into what Hearts are doing but end of the day their FOH was fuelled by that or oblivion, no choice. They backed it superbly.

That superb backing from a larger support however wasn't enough. It is underpinned by investors.

Investors one thing - they want something back for their investment but having won the lottery with this Anderson backing them with regular millions in donations they are where they are.

Maybe there are philanthropists just waiting to gift Hibs millions of pounds every year we don't know about.

Hearts would be a viable going concern without the Anderson money, it's a very welcome extra for them and they are spending it because they have it.

Do we need philanthropists to pump money into Hibs year on year? We don't have any now and fan investment wouldn't be the only source of income. We'd still have commercial deals, still sell tickets and strips, still have hospitality....... The fans contributions could theoretically stop once we bought the club (or a further percentage of it). That is what many thought would happen in the case of Hearts but it hasn't happened like that and they have huge amounts of extra money ploughing in every month that is no longer required for the purchase of shares, that's directly from fans before the Anderson money. Even a smaller uptake at Hibs and a lower retention rate would still be money we don't have now.

Most fans investment in Scottish football is emotional, be that time or money and once they get in the habit of parting with it the habit doesn't easily break. There has been prophecies that Hearts fans will be stopping direct debits any day for years but it hasn't happened. Much like a gym membership or a TV subscription once it's in place it tends to get forgotten about as just another expense. Getting that initial commitment is the trickiest part. The fundamental issue at the moment is the fans have no route to buy up shares in the club and thus no route to an all important blocking vote should it be required. A significant enough pot of money and that scenario could change. I don't think deep down anyone really believes Gordon is in this for the long haul so work towards finding out his price and start to meet it. The chance was there with STF but the momentum was slow and there never felt like a really pressing need for it, I'm not sure the latter part is the case anymore.

[Mainstandman]

I think this perspective is sort of part of a self-fulfilling prophecy that a lot of hibs fans have. It's based on experience, yet yields absolutely nothing. It's sort of like a depressed person waiting for a cathartic catastrophe or someone to come and save them rather than helping themselves.

Positivity is as infectious as negativity, it just takes a bit of effort to get it going in the face of nay-sayers.


What you need to get something like this of the ground is the Law of Diffusions of innovations - this works.

All our fans sit in five groups - Innovators, Early adopters, early majority, late majority and laggers. Get yourself an innovator and focus on the early adopters. ignore everyone else!!! - they will only follow once a value has been established to them. You use the early adopters to establish that. If we have 12000ST's you need to focus on the 12-13% that will be early adopters. You must totally ignore the people who resist, ask what's in it for them, say the idea won't work or are cynical; getting caught up with these people will doom your idea to failure.

[McGruber]

It's not really a non runner though.

Hearts, Motherwell, St Mirren, Clyde, Annan, Stirling Albion Wimbledon, Berwick Rangers, Chesterfield are all majority supporter owned whilst Accrington Stanley, Grimsby, Luton and York City all have significant minority fan ownership. Morton and Patrick Thistle are likely to join the former group soon.

Abroad you have the likes of Panathinaikos who have 55% fan ownership on a one member, one vote system. The likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atheltic Bilbao and Osasuna still operate on the 'socios' members system.

That's a wide range of clubs at varying levels with a variety of different structures and percentages owned by fans.

It's not easy but it's achievable and the above is ample evidence of that.

Outwith the massive clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelonas of the world with global fanbase and brand name - for clubs comparative to our size, how has it went?

Are there well known examples where the clubs in question have improved their fortunes with being majority fan owned?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Why not? We have x amount of season ticket holders that renew every season without fail. What difference is an extra tenner a month to ST holders when it means they’d be members of the fans group in control of the club? This fans group should be run like a democracy too so that with them having that 50+1 stake in the club what the majority of fans want is what happens. These people would genuinely have a say in how the club is operating, I’d pay more than a tenner a month for that any day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I currently give £10 a month to HSL and have done for over 2 years. I would be more than happy to up that to £20 maybe more ( if I could find it ) if Hibs were a fan owned club.

I'm not against fan ownership in principle, I'm just far from convinced that we have a big enough fan base, or one that's committed enough, to make it a success. I'm here to be proved wrong and would love to be proved wrong. I would even be prepared to spend the money required to help the folk trying to prove me wrong to prove me wrong :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

Outwith the massive clubs, Real Madrid, Barcelonas of the world with global fanbase and brand name - for clubs comparative to our size, how has it went?

Are there well known examples where the clubs in question have improved their fortunes with being majority fan owned?

Hearts.

[McGruber]

Hearts.

Hearts have been fan owned for about 5 months. They also have Anderson on board not to mention Budge still.

I agree your point that the Anderson money is extra and spent because they have it. It is not relied on. But in spending it, this extra money, multi millions it has contributed to their success and how well they are doing.

So yes it has started very well for Hearts but they are both fan owned and bank rolled.

[NAE NOOKIE]

It's not really a non runner though.

Hearts, Motherwell, St Mirren, Clyde, Annan, Stirling Albion Wimbledon, Berwick Rangers, Chesterfield are all majority supporter owned whilst Accrington Stanley, Grimsby, Luton and York City all have significant minority fan ownership. Morton and Patrick Thistle are likely to join the former group soon.

Abroad you have the likes of Panathinaikos who have 55% fan ownership on a one member, one vote system. The likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atheltic Bilbao and Osasuna still operate on the 'socios' members system.

That's a wide range of clubs at varying levels with a variety of different structures and percentages owned by fans.

It's not easy but it's achievable and the above is ample evidence of that.

Yeh mate. But what all these clubs in your first list have in common, with the exception of Hearts and to a lesser extent Motherwell and St Mirren, is that they have no pretensions of being anything more than what they are. Nobody at Clyde seriously thinks they will ever challenge for Europe, nobody at Chesterfield has pretensions of being an EPL club. Clubs run by the fans for the fans where it simply being there to follow is the end game ... Like Hearts that simply can't be the case for us and any fan owned Hibs would need to recognise that. Mere existence isn't and never will be enough.

As for Spain. Two of the clubs on that list attract massive sponsorship and TV deals and they both have huge worldwide fan bases. As for Athletic Bilbao the club is practically a national team for the Basque region, when bairns are born they don't get baby grows, they get an Athletic Bilbao strip, they are an integral part of the community where supporting them isn't even open to negotiation.

It's the same with the German model. You are talking about clubs with huge fan bases, this is a country of 80 million people with an 18 team top league. The clubs benefit from huge sponsorship and TV deals and wealthy fans and corporations willing to put money into the 49% side of the deal just for the kudos.
Probably more important than all that, of all the countries in world football the Germans seem to have developed a culture that you follow your club and attend it's matches come what may ... Jeezo, the even have a club where the fans think the corporate side of the game is so distasteful more than half of them didn't want to see it promoted to the Bundesliga but they still pack the stadium every other weekend and you have a club in RB Leipzig universally hated because it has managed to dodge the 50% + 1 model. All of that is clearly a notion of what football should be and what it is to be a supporter of a club that is lost on a good percentage of our support.

For all my ramblings mate I am not in the slightest opposed to the principle of fan ownership. If it comes to it with Hibs I will be front and centre putting in as much money as I can reasonably afford .... But as I've said before, when I see supposed 'fans' of this club desert it in droves for a semi final against it's biggest rival because they think it won't win and season ticket holders giving up going to games because the team is performing badly. When I see long time posters on this forum, folk you would think are the cream of our support, seriously questioning whether or not they will renew for next season, when I see all that can you blame me for thinking we do not have enough fans with the loyalty and commitment that will be required to even keep a fan owned club afloat .... never mind make it a success.

I don't want to be saying this ... I fin'g hate saying this. I would love our fans to be a byword for dedication and loyalty no matter the fortunes of the club on the park. But the truth is they aren't, in fact far from it.

[Lago]

OK fan ownership.

Lets say we could raise the 7 to 10 million quid it would take to buy Ron Gordon out through the efforts of individual fans, HSL, those shadowy figures Pretty Boy mentioned who were allegedly looking to buy the club before RG got the nod and some generous donations from our celeb fans like the Murrays, the Proclaimers, Dougray Scott and mental Hibby Irvine Welsh. All of whom I'm sure would be willing to 'pony up' in the sure and certain knowledge they would have no control of the club as individuals.

The next step I presume would be to reach at least the 8000 contributors Hearts have, paying at least £10 a month for the privilege giving the club a minimum income of £80,000 a month. That from a smaller fan base and with nothing more to galvanise them than a poor team on the park and an owner who has lost the confidence of roughly 50% of the support ... that's a long way from the motivation of having to save your club from oblivion.

I seriously am not trying to be a smart arse when I point out that this is a club that could barely shift half its allocation for a Scottish cup semi final derby match 40 miles along the road because folk didn't think it could win the game. In what world do folk think 'fans' so easily prepared to chuck their support for the club in such a huge match would be willing to commit to contributing a minimum of £10 a month and more pertinently be prepared to keep it going if the club wasn't performing to their satisfaction on the park?

I hate to be a wet blanket, but that's how it is as far as I can see.
Spot on excellent summary and can I just add not for one moment do I think our celeb so called fans, would pony up to any effective extent.

[Pretty Boy]

Yeh mate. But what all these clubs in your first list have in common, with the exception of Hearts and to a lesser extent Motherwell and St Mirren, is that they have no pretensions of being anything more than what they are. Nobody at Clyde seriously thinks they will ever challenge for Europe, nobody at Chesterfield has pretensions of being an EPL club. Clubs run by the fans for the fans where it simply being there to follow is the end game ... Like Hearts that simply can't be the case for us and any fan owned Hibs would need to recognise that. Mere existence isn't and never will be enough.

As for Spain. Two of the clubs on that list attract massive sponsorship and TV deals and they both have huge worldwide fan bases. As for Athletic Bilbao the club is practically a national team for the Basque region, when bairns are born they don't get baby grows, they get an Athletic Bilbao strip, they are an integral part of the community where supporting them isn't even open to negotiation.

It's the same with the German model. You are talking about clubs with huge fan bases, this is a country of 80 million people with an 18 team top league. The clubs benefit from huge sponsorship and TV deals and wealthy fans and corporations willing to put money into the 49% side of the deal just for the kudos.
Probably more important than all that, of all the countries in world football the Germans seem to have developed a culture that you follow your club and attend it's matches come what may ... Jeezo, the even have a club where the fans think the corporate side of the game is so distasteful more than half of them didn't want to see it promoted to the Bundesliga but they still pack the stadium every other weekend and you have a club in RB Leipzig universally hated because it has managed to dodge the 50% + 1 model. All of that is clearly a notion of what football should be and what it is to be a supporter of a club that is lost on a good percentage of our support.

For all my ramblings mate I am not in the slightest opposed to the principle of fan ownership. If it comes to it with Hibs I will be front and centre putting in as much money as I can reasonably afford .... But as I've said before, when I see supposed 'fans' of this club desert it in droves for a semi final against it's biggest rival because they think it won't win and season ticket holders giving up going to games because the team is performing badly. When I see long time posters on this forum, folk you would think are the cream of our support, seriously questioning whether or not they will renew for next season, when I see all that can you blame me for thinking we do not have enough fans with the loyalty and commitment that will be required to even keep a fan owned club afloat .... never mind make it a success.

I don't want to be saying this ... I fin'g hate saying this. I would love our fans to be a byword for dedication and loyalty no matter the fortunes of the club on the park. But the truth is they aren't, in fact far from it.

Surely though of all the teams mentioned Hearts are really the barometer, not Barcelona at one extreme and Luton at the other.

They are achieving what they are at least in part because of their fan ownership model. It's been a rocky road to get there and they are at least as 'entitled' as a fanbase as we are when it comes to on field matters. Despite Hibs winning the Scottish Cup, derby defeats, relegation, losing to Brora Rangers etc etc the direct debits have continually held up contrary to what every other Hibs fan predicted or hoped would happen. If they can do it, why can't we?

There's 3 points at play really. We don't need someone else to buy the club for us and then have to pay them back, it can be a medium to long term project for a committed fans groups with the ultimate goal of being ready when the time comes. The other option is when Gordon comes to sell we are waiting on A N Other coming along. If you believe some on here that person doesn't exist. Then what? If Gordon wants to recoup his money or his much maligned son does on his behalf where does that leave us? He owns both the club and the real estate that comes with it. If we are truly to believe not one other person in the world would be interested in buying Hibs then leaving the club in the custody of a 70 year old man with no real tie to us without a back up plan seems folly. The final point is what is the 'next level' for Hibs? It's not challenging Celtic or Rangers, that's several levels above anyone in the league and has a price tag of tens of millions. Is it getting close to where Hearts are now? Consistently challenging for 3rd and a decent European adventure? If so why is that not achievable with fans pumping £20, 30 or 40K a month into the club on top of what is already being generated? That 'next level' isn't all that far away. I'd wager for all their bravado if we revisited this conversation in a decades time Hearts trophy haul will be broadly comparable to ourselves and Aberdeen. We need a sense of realism, fan ownership won't take us much further than that but then neither will the ownership of Ron Gordon.

For me it comes down to how we view the club. For me Hibs is a sense of identity and about it's history, it's foundations and it's place in the community. If football was solely about success then I could jump on a train to Glasgow every week and attend Celtic Park. My current internal debate about renewing my ST is little to do with on field issues (I've renewed through worse) and everything to do with a sense of disenfranchisement and disengagement. If I don't renew then my football consumption next season will be looking down the leagues rather than upwards at any glamour or success. We are currently little more than a plaything and/or a money making venture for a businessman. As and when the ownership changes again I don't want to repeat that process and experience again. We have the luxury of time and as I said a couple of pages ago it's up to HSL or equivalent to prove they are ownership in waiting.

[Cropley10]

Not keen on fan ownership. Never been something i've wanted. I'd much prefer a competent owner putting a winning team on the park instead of focusing on fancy hospitality restaurants.

Who are HMFC owned by?

[Iain G]

Who are HMFC owned by?

Some guys called Austin Roëver