The only thing Levein got wrong about the derby...

[He's here!]

...is that Hearts' domination of the fixture is not the 'natural' order but an unnatural one.

Two relatively big city teams founded at the same time who both tend to punch below their weight in terms of trophies won and who have each only been champions of Scotland four times. You'd think that their head-to-head record would be pretty even. Yet when we look at the overall tallies (in both league and cups) it stands at:

Hearts wins: 148
Draws: 99
Hibs wins: 86

Hearts wins are not all that far away from being double those of Hibs. Whether we like it or not, the story of the derby is one of Hearts domination, punctuated by occasional flurries of us getting our s**t together and bossing it for short spells, the 70s being the only truly sustained spell of Hibs being top dogs, with the McLeish era giving us a further tantalising taste of really bossing things. Those 99 draws also tell many a tale of superior Hibs teams somehow failing to make that superiority tell.

What can explain these almost freakish stats?! We talk about Hearts 'wanting it more'. Is that really true? If so, why don't WE want it more? It's not as if the fans of either club want it any less. Is it something that comes from within the clubs? It's certainly true to say Hearts have more 'Hearts-minded' folk running things than we do 'Hibs-minded' people at present.

Whatever the answer it's a pitiful set of stats to behold and the way the fortunes of both clubs are shaping up right now it looks like becoming significantly more pitiful still.

[Hiber-nation]

Aye thanks for reminding us. Now back to your rugger.

[vuefrom1875]

...is that Hearts' domination of the fixture is not the 'natural' order but an unnatural one.

Two relatively big city teams founded at the same time who both tend to punch below their weight in terms of trophies won and who have each only been champions of Scotland four times. You'd think that their head-to-head record would be pretty even. Yet when we look at the overall tallies (in both league and cups) it stands at:

Hearts wins: 148
Draws: 99
Hibs wins: 86

Hearts wins are not all that far away from being double those of Hibs. Whether we like it or not, the story of the derby is one of Hearts domination, punctuated by occasional flurries of us getting our s**t together and bossing it for short spells, the 70s being the only truly sustained spell of Hibs being top dogs, with the McLeish era giving us a further tantalising taste of really bossing things. Those 99 draws also tell many a tale of superior Hibs teams somehow failing to make that superiority tell.

What can explain these almost freakish stats?! We talk about Hearts 'wanting it more'. Is that really true? If so, why don't WE want it more? It's not as if the fans of either club want it any less. Is it something that comes from within the clubs? It's certainly true to say Hearts have more 'Hearts-minded' folk running things than we do 'Hibs-minded' people at present.

Whatever the answer it's a pitiful set of stats to behold and the way the fortunes of both clubs are shaping up right now it looks like becoming significantly more pitiful still.

Ok a tramp you've had your say...now f##k off.

[B.H.F.C]

Delete thread. You’re not a Hibs supporter posting pish like this. Weird.

[007]

I don't know which would be more sad. Being a Hibs supporter and posting that or being a Hearts supporter and posting more than 3000 times on here in under 2 years.

[BILLYHIBS]

:taxi

[Glory Lurker]

I think the OP is getting a rough deal here. Even Lawrie Reilly in his book talked about Hearts' charmed existence in this tie. It is a thing and I'd love us to find a way to close the gap.

He does talk nonsense in the HG :-) but I can understand the frustration.

[007]

I think the OP is getting a rough deal here. Even Lawrie Reilly in his book talked about Hearts' charmed existence in this tie. It is a thing and I'd love us to find a way to close the gap.

He does talk nonsense in the HG :-) but I can understand the frustration.

It might have been better to at least save it for a few days.

[Maguire]

...is that Hearts' domination of the fixture is not the 'natural' order but an unnatural one.

Two relatively big city teams founded at the same time who both tend to punch below their weight in terms of trophies won and who have each only been champions of Scotland four times. You'd think that their head-to-head record would be pretty even. Yet when we look at the overall tallies (in both league and cups) it stands at:

Hearts wins: 148
Draws: 99
Hibs wins: 86

Hearts wins are not all that far away from being double those of Hibs. Whether we like it or not, the story of the derby is one of Hearts domination, punctuated by occasional flurries of us getting our s**t together and bossing it for short spells, the 70s being the only truly sustained spell of Hibs being top dogs, with the McLeish era giving us a further tantalising taste of really bossing things. Those 99 draws also tell many a tale of superior Hibs teams somehow failing to make that superiority tell.

What can explain these almost freakish stats?! We talk about Hearts 'wanting it more'. Is that really true? If so, why don't WE want it more? It's not as if the fans of either club want it any less. Is it something that comes from within the clubs? It's certainly true to say Hearts have more 'Hearts-minded' folk running things than we do 'Hibs-minded' people at present.

Whatever the answer it's a pitiful set of stats to behold and the way the fortunes of both clubs are shaping up right now it looks like becoming significantly more pitiful still.

I refuse to believe those stats are accurate, there's no way they've won nearly double the amount! I would have thought more draws and less hearts wins to be honest. Yes, Hearts are having a good little spell at the moment but these things go in cycles and football changes fast, we'll be back on top before long!!

[Pagan Hibernia]

I refuse to believe those stats are accurate, there's no way they've won nearly double the amount! I would have thought more draws and less hearts wins to be honest. Yes, Hearts are having a good little spell at the moment but these things go in cycles and football changes fast, we'll be back on top before long!!

the stats are correct.

[loanheadhibby]

I refuse to believe those stats are accurate, there's no way they've won nearly double the amount! I would have thought more draws and less hearts wins to be honest. Yes, Hearts are having a good little spell at the moment but these things go in cycles and football changes fast, we'll be back on top before long!!

Aye so we will.
And I am a Hibs supporter.

[He's here!]

Delete thread. You’re not a Hibs supporter posting pish like this. Weird.

It's cold hard depressing facts, not p**h. We have a major problem with this fixture, almost always have had. Turning a blind eye to it or claiming it's disloyal to point out our failings won't disguise it. The question is why do we so often fail to step up to the mark in a fixture that should not on paper be so one-sided?

I guess the only comparable scenario is, at a stretch, Liverpool and Everton, but Liverpool have often been a major force in England and Europe whereas Everton's underachievement goes well beyond the city derby.

[HarpOnHibee]

It's ultimately the difference in the styles in which each club has historically set out to play. While Hibs have always aimed to play a quick, slick pressing game, Hearts have favoured efficiency instead. That's why they've been able to win games against us so often when we "appear" to be on top. They know exactly how to defend against us and limit us to half chances. They then anticipate the frustration this causes our players and supporters. That frustration wears us down and when we're worn down, Hearts run up the other end with the inevitable sucker punch.

As much as it angers me to say it, Hearts have the psychology of these games down to a tee.

[LunasBoots]

Our Derby record is embarrassing.

[Pagan Hibernia]

It's cold hard depressing facts, not p**h. We have a major problem with this fixture, almost always have had. Turning a blind eye to it or claiming it's disloyal to point out our failings won't disguise it. The question is why do we so often fail to step up to the mark in a fixture that should not on paper be so one-sided?

I guess the only comparable scenario is, at a stretch, Liverpool and Everton, but Liverpool have often been a major force in England and Europe whereas Everton's underachievement goes well beyond the city derby.

Everton’s record against liverpool was fine up until the last few decades.

ours against them has been continuously pish since the 1890s

[He's here!]

It's ultimately the difference in the styles in which each club has historically set out to play. While Hibs have always aimed to play a quick, slick pressing game, Hearts have favoured efficiency instead. That's why they've been able to win games against us so often when we "appear" to be on top. They know exactly how to defend against us and limit us to half chances. They then anticipate the frustration this causes our players and supporters. That frustration wears us down and when we're worn down, Hearts run up the other end with the inevitable sucker punch.

As much as it angers me to say it, Hearts have the psychology of these games down to a tee.

I accept there's a nugget of truth in that (perhaps it explains the Famous Five's poor derby record) but by and large the only Hibs teams which have been able to impose that style on the fixture were those which combined flair with grit.

When I first started supporting Hibs in the mid 1970s it was the norm for us to beat Hearts. I missed the best of the Turnbull era but in the first derby I ever got taken to Joe Harper won it with a long range screamer and we continued to dominate the fixture. We moved away in the early 80s and when I came back to Edinburgh about a decade later Hearts had very much flipped the fixture. This I found hard to fathom based on my childhood belief that we would always be top dogs, but it was only when I looked into the history of the fixture I realised I'd been lucky to enjoy a 'blip' era.

[Glory Lurker]

Everton’s record against liverpool was fine up until the last few decades.

ours against them has been continuously pish since the 1890s

You're being too kind. We've not done ourselves justice since Christmas Day in 1875!

It is just mad.

I mind a million years ago on here, when we were organising a new manager, someone said something like the objectives should be win almost every match at home and beat the Hearts at Tynecastle. Now, other away wins would be a good idea too, but derby-wise the reverse of this seems to be an absolute given along the road and always has been.

[7Hero]

The truth hurts...

[He's here!]

You're being too kind. We've not done ourselves justice since Christmas Day in 1875!

It is just mad.

I mind a million years ago on here, when we were organising a new manager, someone said something like the objectives should be win almost every match at home and beat the Hearts at Tynecastle. Now, other away wins would be a good idea too, but derby-wise the reverse of this seems to be an absolute given along the road and always has been.

Our record at Tynecastle (at least in my time supporting Hibs) is certainly abysmal though ironically it remains the venue for arguably our finest hour on new year's day 1973.

[7Hero]

Ok a tramp you've had your say...now f##k off.
Hardly a tramp for talking the truth..

[broondog]

Not a chance those stats are real, clearly a sad Jambo posting this here as well, get yourself tae ****

[S4uzee]

Not a chance those stats are real, clearly a sad Jambo posting this here as well, get yourself tae ****

You don’t think they’re correct? Have they not also won more derbies at ER than we have

[HarpOnHibee]

Not a chance those stats are real, clearly a sad Jambo posting this here as well, get yourself tae ****

They are real and posts like this add nothing to the discussion. If you've got nothing remotely constructive to add, then leave the thread to the grown ups.

[BegbieHSC]

The derby is the be all and end all for the tramps.

They practically chased Neilson out in his first spell because of his derby record - in particular - that Paul Hanlon game.

The club psychologies on the derbies are different. We love winning derbies, we hope to win derbies. They on the other hand, must win the derby, or nothing else matters.

[HarpOnHibee]

The derby is the be all and end all for the tramps.

They practically chased Neilson out in his first spell because of his derby record - in particular - that Paul Hanlon game.

The club psychologies on the derbies are different. We love winning derbies, we hope to win derbies. They on the other hand, must win the derby, or nothing else matters.

It's a bit of a weak point tbh. Heart's have historically fared better in the league than we have, amassing more points and averaging 3rd place overall. If all they care about is beating us in derbies, then they're doing a better overall job with the things they apparently care less than us about.

[HendoDelivered]

Not a chance those stats are real, clearly a sad Jambo posting this here as well, get yourself tae ****

They are in fact very true, sadly.

[buktapurple79]

They are in fact very true, sadly.

No doubting anybody but those stats cannae be right, defo no at Easter Road

[HendoDelivered]

No doubting anybody but those stats cannae be right, defo no at Easter Road

I think they can be easily accessed online if you look them up.

[Mcbizz1998]

Our Derby record is embarrassing.

Yep. I sat there today, I wasn’t surprised, i wasn’t upset, I wasn’t annoyed - I was ****ing embarrassed. Again.

[Mcbizz1998]

The derby is the be all and end all for the tramps.

They practically chased Neilson out in his first spell because of his derby record - in particular - that Paul Hanlon game.

The club psychologies on the derbies are different. We love winning derbies, we hope to win derbies. They on the other hand, must win the derby, or nothing else matters.

So what if it’s the be all and end all? What’s the alternative?

They have won more trophies than us, they have a hugely better derby record than us, they have a better record in the league than us.

So making the derby the “be all and end all” isn’t working out too bad for them - I wish we would do the same!!

[AgentDaleCooper]

honestly, i think a major part of it is how we approach football as fans. Hearts supporters absolutely demand that they finish 3rd, and there's near mutiny whenever they don't - crucially, they don't really care how this is achieved. If there's pretty football, that's a bonus. The fact is, they go into every game feeling more or less entitled to winning it - my feeling going into a derby is something more along the lines of 'hopefully fate conspires with us', even when we're a much better team. The only recent time I've felt 'right, this is ours' before a game was when Lennon was boss.

We've long prioritised good football over grit - the fact is, at this level, we're not going to get many players who are technically gifted and have a winning mentality. For every John McGinn there's going to be 100 Alan O'Brians.

Fundamentally, though, I can't see us redressing the balance until the owner either gets his act together or buggers off and lets the fans run the club, as Dempster had always planned.

[JammyDoidger]

Why is the OP getting a hard time for telling the truth? It's about time things changed. The only time I've felt confident against these clowns was under Lennon, and surprisingly enough the man was a winner and didn't accept defeat, too many nice guys in this club and support, there lies the problem, this and the whole 'hibs way' of playing, sod the hibs way, it's time to get plain nasty and just win. Sick of being the nice guys. If only the players could have the fire in their belly I feel right now.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Why is the OP getting a hard time for telling the truth? It's about time things changed. The only time I've felt confident against these clowns was under Lennon, and surprisingly enough the man was a winner and didn't accept defeat, too many nice guys in this club and support, there lies the problem, this and the whole 'hibs way' of playing, sod the hibs way, it's time to get plain nasty and just win. Sick of being the nice guys. If only the players could have the fire in their belly I feel right now.

I’d run through a brick wall for that jersey against Auchinleck Talbot, why can’t these guys have that same desire for a derby match? Big changes required


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JammyDoidger]

I’d run through a brick wall for that jersey against Auchinleck Talbot, why can’t these guys have that same desire for a derby match? Big changes required


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I had a wee nosey at social media before the game, Mckirdy walking in on the phone, that's on hibs twitter, and Youan posting another daft highlight reel on his instagram making himself look like Ronaldo an hour before the biggest game of the season. If I'm the manager I'm going off my head at that, it's all standards and quite frankly we have none. Youan especially drives me nuts he is the most un hibs player ever. All fart and no jobby, but maybe he's the hibs way.

[Rob]

Why is the OP getting a hard time for telling the truth? It's about time things changed. The only time I've felt confident against these clowns was under Lennon, and surprisingly enough the man was a winner and didn't accept defeat, too many nice guys in this club and support, there lies the problem, this and the whole 'hibs way' of playing, sod the hibs way, it's time to get plain nasty and just win. Sick of being the nice guys. If only the players could have the fire in their belly I feel right now.
That's the crux of the matter for me, I'm not one who is advocating that Lennon should return, things went South during the latter part of his tenure, but as soon as he came in, you could sense that there was a different mentality about the club. He came from a playing and managerial background at Celtic where the mentality is all about winning. Finish second and you're a loser.

[MWHIBBIES]

Why is the OP getting a hard time for telling the truth? It's about time things changed. The only time I've felt confident against these clowns was under Lennon, and surprisingly enough the man was a winner and didn't accept defeat, too many nice guys in this club and support, there lies the problem, this and the whole 'hibs way' of playing, sod the hibs way, it's time to get plain nasty and just win. Sick of being the nice guys. If only the players could have the fire in their belly I feel right now.

Lennon lost 3 times to Levein. With far better players all over the park. ''winner'' :faf:

Stubbs lost 1 derby in which we played them off the park, and missed a pen.

Stubbs was the one who turned things around. Lennon the one who ****ed them up again.

[TheHarpy76]

honestly, i think a major part of it is how we approach football as fans. Hearts supporters absolutely demand that they finish 3rd, and there's near mutiny whenever they don't - crucially, they don't really care how this is achieved. If there's pretty football, that's a bonus. The fact is, they go into every game feeling more or less entitled to winning it - my feeling going into a derby is something more along the lines of 'hopefully fate conspires with us', even when we're a much better team. The only recent time I've felt 'right, this is ours' before a game was when Lennon was boss.

We've long prioritised good football over grit - the fact is, at this level, we're not going to get many players who are technically gifted and have a winning mentality. For every John McGinn there's going to be 100 Alan O'Brians.

Fundamentally, though, I can't see us redressing the balance until the owner either gets his act together or buggers off and lets the fans run the club, as Dempster had always planned.

This post is absolutely spot on. With the exception of the Lennon remark, but that’s just my opinion.

Hearts don’t give a **** how they get a win, as long as they get it. When was the last time they beat us and played scintillating football into the bargain. More often than not they win ugly.
It’s a trait I wish we could achieve.
Our mentality always seems to be “we can’t lose this” theirs is “we must win this” even a draw is seldom good enough for them.

[He's here!]

Why is the OP getting a hard time for telling the truth? It's about time things changed. The only time I've felt confident against these clowns was under Lennon, and surprisingly enough the man was a winner and didn't accept defeat, too many nice guys in this club and support, there lies the problem, this and the whole 'hibs way' of playing, sod the hibs way, it's time to get plain nasty and just win. Sick of being the nice guys. If only the players could have the fire in their belly I feel right now.

Mentality may have been part of the issue down the years but the problem we're now faced with is that Hearts simply look a far stronger side than us. Could be a long time until we win another derby.

[BegbieHSC]

So what if it’s the be all and end all? What’s the alternative?

They have won more trophies than us, they have a hugely better derby record than us, they have a better record in the league than us.

So making the derby the “be all and end all” isn’t working out too bad for them - I wish we would do the same!!

I’m not saying it’s a bad thing at all.

In fact, it’s a psychological edge they’ve got on us - I’m unsure where it comes from. It’s a failing from the club, past and present to not take it as seriously.

[greenpaper55]

There is nothing magic about their record just that they have slightly better players than us for the most part.

[GreenCastle]

The club accepts under performing so we can’t exactly be surprised.

Warning signs were there in the league cup at start of the season.

Johnson is lucky he got another derby after the Tynie loss.

Not managing to score against them in 2 games he should be sacked today.

Club need to grow a backbone - too soft and accept under performers.

The players / team needs major work also. They are just as bad and many of them no where near good enough to move forward.

[lyonhibs]

I wasn't at the game and have only seen highlights online but, for once, was attitude and desire not relatively good in the game, and it was quality finishing that did for us?

[bigwheel]

I wasn't at the game and have only seen highlights online but, for once, was attitude and desire not relatively good in the game, and it was quality finishing that did for us?

No issue with work rate . But Problem was at both ends of the pitch . Not good enough in front of goal and not good enough defending our own goal …pretty crucial parts of the game to be successful.

Until we start having clean sheets regularly we’re going to struggle .

[I'm Spartacus]

What the F am I reading here?

I've posted some ***** here over the years but this is quite a few levels above.

[sadtom]

They made a pact with Beelzebub…an eternity as soulless, slobbering, servile, simpletons in exchange for a 44% win rate.
They’re welcome to it.
I place a far higher value on my opposable thumbs, upright stance, critical thinking and dashing good looks.

[WeeRussell]

Mentality may have been part of the issue down the years but the problem we're now faced with is that Hearts simply look a far stronger side than us. Could be a long time until we win another derby.

How do you know how strong the sides looked yesterday? I thought you were out the country, not interested, and only going to watch highlights if we did the totally impossible and won?

Not surprised you still found time to come and spout ***** and get the reactions you wanted.

Very sad.

[I'm Spartacus]

Mentality may have been part of the issue down the years but the problem we're now faced with is that Hearts simply look a far stronger side than us. Could be a long time until we win another derby.


How do you know how strong the sides looked yesterday? I thought you were out the country, not interested, and only going to watch highlights if we did the totally impossible and won?

Not surprised you still found time to come and spout ***** and get the reactions you wanted.

Very sad.

And if he did in fact watch the game there's no way he can come to the conclusion that they are far stronger than us based on that 98 minutes.

[Trinity Hibee]

I’m 35 and in my lifetime it looks like Hibs have won 28 derbies out of the 86(ish) we’ve won overall.

So actually in 35 years a third of our derby wins have come in that time. The other 115 years we’ve had about 60 wins which is so poor. Just shows historically it’s a deep routed problem. I’m sure I remember reading even the FF didn’t have a great derby record.

[He's here!]

And if he did in fact watch the game there's no way he can come to the conclusion that they are far stronger than us based on that 98 minutes.

They've stuck eight goals without reply past two of their supposed 'rivals' for third place in the last week. They're obviously a good bit better than us. Said at the start of the season they'd finish more than 20 points ahead of us and that's looking like a reasonable prediction.

[He's here!]

How do you know how strong the sides looked yesterday? I thought you were out the country, not interested, and only going to watch highlights if we did the totally impossible and won?

Not surprised you still found time to come and spout ***** and get the reactions you wanted.

Very sad.

Was in Manchester yesterday and didn't see the game (and certainly ain't going to waste my time watching the highlights) but the consensus seems to be we gave it our best but still lost comfortably. Even if folk think Hearts weren't especially good their league position, recent results (including two 3-0 wins over Hibs) make it pretty clear they're the stronger team.

[He's here!]

I’m 35 and in my lifetime it looks like Hibs have won 28 derbies out of the 86(ish) we’ve won overall.

So actually in 35 years a third of our derby wins have come in that time. The other 115 years we’ve had about 60 wins which is so poor. Just shows historically it’s a deep routed problem. I’m sure I remember reading even the FF didn’t have a great derby record.

Remember that until the mid-70s we only played each other twice a season in the league.

[danhibees1875]

I wonder how that gap has looked over time?

I suspect it would have been more even up until money took hold of football and started to separate the haves and have nots a bit more. Since then hearts have always seemed to have a financial advantage - fair or otherwise - over us. Typically that leads to better players and better results.

[stalbanshibby]

honestly, i think a major part of it is how we approach football as fans. Hearts supporters absolutely demand that they finish 3rd, and there's near mutiny whenever they don't - crucially, they don't really care how this is achieved. If there's pretty football, that's a bonus. The fact is, they go into every game feeling more or less entitled to winning it - my feeling going into a derby is something more along the lines of 'hopefully fate conspires with us', even when we're a much better team. The only recent time I've felt 'right, this is ours' before a game was when Lennon was boss.

We've long prioritised good football over grit - the fact is, at this level, we're not going to get many players who are technically gifted and have a winning mentality. For every John McGinn there's going to be 100 Alan O'Brians.

Fundamentally, though, I can't see us redressing the balance until the owner either gets his act together or buggers off and lets the fans run the club, as Dempster had always planned.


10/10

[JimBHibees]

I wasn't at the game and have only seen highlights online but, for once, was attitude and desire not relatively good in the game, and it was quality finishing that did for us?

Exactly that

[broondog]

honestly, i think a major part of it is how we approach football as fans. Hearts supporters absolutely demand that they finish 3rd, and there's near mutiny whenever they don't - crucially, they don't really care how this is achieved. If there's pretty football, that's a bonus. The fact is, they go into every game feeling more or less entitled to winning it - my feeling going into a derby is something more along the lines of 'hopefully fate conspires with us', even when we're a much better team. The only recent time I've felt 'right, this is ours' before a game was when Lennon was boss.

We've long prioritised good football over grit - the fact is, at this level, we're not going to get many players who are technically gifted and have a winning mentality. For every John McGinn there's going to be 100 Alan O'Brians.

Fundamentally, though, I can't see us redressing the balance until the owner either gets his act together or buggers off and lets the fans run the club, as Dempster had always planned.

If you think the fans are the problem and the Hearts model is anything that should be followed you've lost it. how does the fans 'demanding' anything actually impact the game? we have an owner that doesn't have a clue and is running the club into the ground, it's amazing the fans even turn up witnessing the off the field incompetence. them thinking we should 'win' going into every derby will change nothing. we need new owners and a manager who has a long term plan rather than making a load of strange signing hoping that it works.

forget about fan ownership being a model that is supposed to work, it makes me fel sick people praising hearts and what they are doing - we need to keep in mind how they have got to where they are, through years of cheating, luck and heavy financial support from unknown backers. its another form of cheating but is effectivel the only reason they are afloat right now. they have some guy putting in 4, 5 million a season and any impact the fan ownership model is having isn't enough. give me Hibs any day over them. first thing we need to do to get back to some sort of level is sack the board. get a grip with blaming the fans and praising hearts, it's embarrassing.

[The dalmeny]

I’d run through a brick wall for that jersey against Auchinleck Talbot, why can’t these guys have that same desire for a derby match? Big changes required


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are a supporter, they are employees

[ManchesterGreen]

The mentality between the clubs is chalk and cheese.

Hertz demand that they beat us and it’s drilled into their players from the minute they sign for them. The fans also make loud and clear that losing to Hibs is not an option.

As for us , well we don’t have the same level of significance towards them. If we lose then it’s accepted and we trudge off home moaning about the same issues we’ve moaned about for season after season making excuse after excuse for the defeat.

Until our mindset changes and it’s drilled into players that losing to them is not accepted then it’ll be the same old dross time after time.

[AgentDaleCooper]

If you think the fans are the problem and the Hearts model is anything that should be followed you've lost it. how does the fans 'demanding' anything actually impact the game? we have an owner that doesn't have a clue and is running the club into the ground, it's amazing the fans even turn up witnessing the off the field incompetence. them thinking we should 'win' going into every derby will change nothing. we need new owners and a manager who has a long term plan rather than making a load of strange signing hoping that it works.

forget about fan ownership being a model that is supposed to work, it makes me fel sick people praising hearts and what they are doing - we need to keep in mind how they have got to where they are, through years of cheating, luck and heavy financial support from unknown backers. its another form of cheating but is effectivel the only reason they are afloat right now. they have some guy putting in 4, 5 million a season and any impact the fan ownership model is having isn't enough. give me Hibs any day over them. first thing we need to do to get back to some sort of level is sack the board. get a grip with blaming the fans and praising hearts, it's embarrassing.

it's not the fans so much as the culture at the club. are you honestly saying that the fans expectations have zero influence on this? we are, actually, notoriously impatient as a support - to the point that managers of other clubs have, in the past, weaponised our tendency to turn on the team if we get frustrated. this has been a lot better since 2016, but i think the fact that JR got punted after his first bad run of results, just before a cup final that he'd got us into, tells you a lot - the board knew they would have the support's consent, mainly because the brand of football he played was pretty dull.

basically, what it seems that you are saying is that we should go on a wholly negative 'sack the board' campaign, then roll the dice on getting some other rich person to buy us. the reason we shouldn't take the fan ownership approach is that it's what hearts do, and if we do something they are doing then it might look like we are copying them, which could be interpreted as praising them, which would be embarrassing...can you see how childish that approach looks?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Our historic derby record is shocking and there's no getting away from it, the stats folk are posting are, sadly, entirely accurate. I worked out that since my first derby in 1975 Hibs have won 37 out of 163 and considering I have only been to one derby at Tynecastle since the 1980s and 12 of those wins were away from home, and for a period in the late 80s to the late 90s I couldn't always afford the fitba, in my near 50 years as a match going fan I've probably seen us beat Hearts in the flesh about 26 times.

I don't know if the lack of Hibs supporters owning and running the club over the years is a factor or not to be honest... In my time you've had Tom Hart as owner and Douglas Cromb as chairman, neither of whom can be doubted as Hibs fans.

But then we've had Kenny Waugh who by all accounts bought us coz he couldn't buy Hearts. Duff and Gray who were Hibs fans but car crash owners, STF who not only wasn't a Hibby but wasn't even a fitba fan and put the entire running of the club into the hands of a rugby supporting Aberdonian accountant.

Now we have a Peruvian American who surprisingly for someone with South American heritage gets the corporate side, but doesn't seem all that engaged in the 'passion' side of the game. You can have all the nice corporate and hospitality stuff you want, you can have all the trappings of a modern club like big screens and advertising ribbons round the pitch, all that stuff has its place. But nothing, and I mean nothing, matters more at a fitba match than the atmosphere and it has been a never ending failing of this club that none of our owners seem to have asked the question ... 'what can I do to make Easter Road a vibrant atmospheric place to watch football, even if I'm struggling to achieve the obvious answer to that question and put a winning team on the park'

The first stop in getting this derby nonsense sorted is to stop being nicey nicey with Hearts at the very top, frosty but business like relations should be the very best they should expect from us ... we are not 'pals' and nobody from the tea lady to the owner should pretend otherwise. I'm not advocating an old firm or Boca v River style mindless hatred, but I wouldn't mind seeing us ramp things up a bit as a club.

Just a wee note on the Hertz. They can boast about their derby record all they like, but the fact is outside of Edinburgh it's small potatoes. I don't watch Dundee United come to ER and say "Aye we better fear that lot coz they nearly always beat Dundee" ... The fact is that 'the famous' Scotland's 3rd biggest club, have won 3 trophies in the last 60 years and one of them was against little better than a village team. Lucky for them they have the derby to wave over us, because the truth is they are just as big under achievers as we are, in fact with 3 trophies to our 4 in that 60 years probably bigger under achievers.

[OsiersHibs]

To Hearts... losing to Hibs is simply not an option. They arrive expecting to win and knowing they will likely win.

Whilst we have players who regard a Derby as just another game. We have the same players regarded as role models who've played through another shocking run with Hearts now unbeaten in 10 games against us. When does something change???

[TheHarpy76]

To Hearts... losing to Hibs is simply not an option. They arrive expecting to win and knowing they will likely win.

Whilst we have players who regard a Derby as just another game. We have the same players regarded as role models who've played through another shocking run with Hearts now unbeaten in 10 games against us. When does something change???

Correct. The mentality of the Derby has frequently been a problem over the years.
For me, it wasn’t more highlighted than the season we both were relegated. They were in admin, had probably the weakest squad in their history and generally couldn’t buy a win against anyone else in the league. Yet, they played us five times and won four of them.
Why? Because they had Gary Locke in charge. A hopeless manager but a Hearts fan and former captain that hammered home the importance of the derby to his young players.

[MelbourneHibees]

Correct. The mentality of the Derby has frequently been a problem over the years.
For me, it wasn’t more highlighted than the season we both were relegated. They were in admin, had probably the weakest squad in their history and generally couldn’t buy a win against anyone else in the league. Yet, they played us five times and won four of them.
Why? Because they had Gary Locke in charge. A hopeless manager but a Hearts fan and former captain that hammered home the importance of the derby to his young players.

Wasn't it Locke that got them relegated and Neilson who was in charge in Championship?

[GreenCastle]

The mentality between the clubs is chalk and cheese.

Hertz demand that they beat us and it’s drilled into their players from the minute they sign for them. The fans also make loud and clear that losing to Hibs is not an option.

As for us , well we don’t have the same level of significance towards them. If we lose then it’s accepted and we trudge off home moaning about the same issues we’ve moaned about for season after season making excuse after excuse for the defeat.

Until our mindset changes and it’s drilled into players that losing to them is not accepted then it’ll be the same old dross time after time.

Correct - the sooner all our support and club realise this we might actually starting winning some derbies.

Until then this run they are on will continue for a while.

Keeping Johnson prime example of accepting failure.

[TheHarpy76]

Wasn't it Locke that got them relegated and Neilson who was in charge in Championship?

They were in the Premiership under Locke during the admin season.

[judas]

I refuse to believe those stats are accurate, there's no way they've won nearly double the amount! I would have thought more draws and less hearts wins to be honest. Yes, Hearts are having a good little spell at the moment but these things go in cycles and football changes fast, we'll be back on top before long!!

It’s only 23 Jan, but I’m giving this my Funniest Post Of The Year Award 2023.

The denial of hard facts. Trump meets football.

[OstKurve Hibs]

We should be treating every derby like a cup final,

[Silky]

So what if it’s the be all and end all? What’s the alternative?

They have won more trophies than us, they have a hugely better derby record than us, they have a better record in the league than us.

So making the derby the “be all and end all” isn’t working out too bad for them - I wish we would do the same!!

I know some Hearts fans who have that attitude, to the extent that it is all consuming. Their aim for every season is 4 wins. Against Hibs. That's it. They actually don't give a damn if those were the only games they won and they went down-it would mean they were unbeaten for another year in a Derby.

[WeeRussell]

Correct - the sooner all our support and club realise this we might actually starting winning some derbies.

Until then this run they are on will continue for a while.

Keeping Johnson prime example of accepting failure.

Why don’t we just have that mindset for every game we play? That way we won’t lose a game ever again.

[green day]

Get this thread in the sea, Jesus Christ.......

[Hiber-nation]

We should be treating every derby like a cup final,

We didn't treat a Cup Final like a Cup Final!

Anyway pitiful thread.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

For all their fixation on stats, it’s very telling that there is single stat that remains (at last check around a year ago) omitted from the LondonHearts shrine to all stats relating to Hearts and their special relationship Scottish Cup. Despite it all, I’d rather be a Hibby - in the main they’re just my kinda folks. The Jambos on the otherhand are just wired differently.

[NAE NOOKIE]

We didn't treat a Cup Final like a Cup Final!

Anyway pitiful thread.

It might be a pitiful thread mate. But the very fact that it is able to exist is far more pitiful.

The absolute truth is that we have a problem in this fixture that simply shouldn't be there when you look at both clubs for what they are, I wouldn't argue that they are the bigger club, but that difference is hardly seismic and certainly not anywhere near so big that their win ratio in this fixture is nearly two to one.

You can also chuck in that absolutely every time we have played them in the final 4 of the Scottish cup we have lost all 5 times, including two finals.

Now, you can criticise folk for starting threads about the subject and folk for contributing to that thread if you want. But that doesn't change the stats and it doesn't change the fact that this is something our club has to face up to and find a way to fix because it's simply unacceptable, it has gone on far too long and it needs to stop.

I remember a player in the famous 5 team telling a story about how he told a Rangers player during a fixture at Ibrox what their bonus was for winning and the shock on the guys face. If I was the owner of this club right now I would have the players on double bonus money for a derby win, with another thousand quid on top for a clean sheet and scoring more than one goal.

In fact, Hibs should have collection boxes in all 4 stands with beating Hearts bonus on them and ask folk to chuck a quid in if they can whenever they go to a game .... I'm bloody sure I would be happy to drop money in at every game.

[Pagan Hibernia]

It might be a pitiful thread mate. But the very fact that it is able to exist is far more pitiful.

The absolute truth is that we have a problem in this fixture that simply shouldn't be there when you look at both clubs for what they are, I wouldn't argue that they are the bigger club, but that difference is hardly seismic and certainly not anywhere near so big that their win ratio in this fixture is nearly two to one.

You can also chuck in that absolutely every time we have played them in the final 4 of the Scottish cup we have lost all 5 times, including two finals.

Now, you can criticise folk for starting threads about the subject and folk for contributing to that thread if you want. But that doesn't change the stats and it doesn't change the fact that this is something our club has to face up to and find a way to fix because it's simply unacceptable, it has gone on far too long and it needs to stop.

it’s the Easter Road stat that really grates on me. The fact they have won more derbies at our home than we have is simply shameful.

its the one element of our appalling derby record that I had hoped to see overturned in my lifetime but Hibs are going about it the wrong way.

the overall record meanwhile will take a century to fix. I hope hibbies and Hibs teams of the future have the stomach for it.

[Pagan Hibernia]

If you think the fans are the problem and the Hearts model is anything that should be followed you've lost it. how does the fans 'demanding' anything actually impact the game? we have an owner that doesn't have a clue and is running the club into the ground, it's amazing the fans even turn up witnessing the off the field incompetence. them thinking we should 'win' going into every derby will change nothing. we need new owners and a manager who has a long term plan rather than making a load of strange signing hoping that it works.

forget about fan ownership being a model that is supposed to work, it makes me fel sick people praising hearts and what they are doing - we need to keep in mind how they have got to where they are, through years of cheating, luck and heavy financial support from unknown backers. its another form of cheating but is effectivel the only reason they are afloat right now. they have some guy putting in 4, 5 million a season and any impact the fan ownership model is having isn't enough. give me Hibs any day over them. first thing we need to do to get back to some sort of level is sack the board. get a grip with blaming the fans and praising hearts, it's embarrassing.

the problem here is that without the fan ownership that you rail against, it’s nigh on impossible to “sack the board”.

[NAE NOOKIE]

it’s the Easter Road stat that really grates on me. The fact they have won more derbies at our home than we have is simply shameful.

its the one element of our appalling derby record that I had hoped to see overturned in my lifetime but Hibs are going about it the wrong way.

the overall record meanwhile will take a century to fix. I hope hibbies and Hibs teams of the future have the stomach for it.

Well that's the great thing about football mate, the next game is the one that counts and I for one wouldn't give a rats arse about our overall record if going forward we could get two wins at ER out of every three and at least one win and a draw at their place every 4 times we play there. It's not the earth, it's not beat them every time, it's just a vast improvement on what we are currently being served up.

[Zambernardi1875]

Well that's the great thing about football mate, the next game is the one that counts and I for one wouldn't give a rats arse about our overall record if going forward we could get two wins at ER out of every three and at least one win and a draw at their place every 4 times we play there. It's not the earth, it's not beat them every time, it's just a vast improvement on what we are currently being served up.

Well if we want to change the record in derbies there has to be a ****ing huge reality check on the blind belief that the players we have now and have been here for years are ****ing good players. Fans can’t keep saying this player and that player are fantastic and then shocked that we get ****ing pumped.

[HarpOnHibee]

Well that's the great thing about football mate, the next game is the one that counts and I for one wouldn't give a rats arse about our overall record if going forward we could get two wins at ER out of every three and at least one win and a draw at their place every 4 times we play there. It's not the earth, it's not beat them every time, it's just a vast improvement on what we are currently being served up.

We shouldn't settle for 2 wins out of 3 against them. We should be demanding to win every game against them, regardless of whether it's at home or away. If you aim short, you'll fall even shorter. I wish our club could grasp that concept.

[NAE NOOKIE]

We shouldn't settle for 2 wins out of 3 against them. We should be demanding to win every game against them, regardless of whether it's at home or away. If you aim short, you'll fall even shorter. I wish our club could grasp that concept.

I didn't suggest that should be the target mate, I'm suggesting getting to that level of outcome on the back of demanding of the players that they win every single derby would take us to a place far better than where we are currently at.

I'm suggesting that if a player turns up to East Mains for training and he's wearing maroon socks he should be sent home to change them and fined a weeks wages for missing training. I'm suggesting that our players are sat down once a week and shown film of Hearts players celebrating wins at Easter Road with subliminal messages flashed on the screen every 10 seconds saying 'you must beat these keeants' followed by the manager in a far less subliminal way screaming at them .... YOU MUST BEAT THESE KEEANTS !!!

[He's here!]

I didn't suggest that should be the target mate, I'm suggesting getting to that level of outcome on the back of demanding of the players that they win every single derby would take us to a place far better than where we are currently at.

I'm suggesting that if a player turns up to East Mains for training and he's wearing maroon socks he should be sent home to change them and fined a weeks wages for missing training. I'm suggesting that our players are sat down once a week and shown film of Hearts players celebrating wins at Easter Road with subliminal messages flashed on the screen every 10 seconds saying 'you must beat these keeants' followed by the manager in a far less subliminal way screaming at them .... YOU MUST BEAT THESE KEEANTS !!!

There should be screens at the staff entrances, changing rooms, canteen etc at ER and East Mains with footage of Latapy smashing home the 6th in the 6-2 game on a permanent loop.

[Edina Street]

...is that Hearts' domination of the fixture is not the 'natural' order but an unnatural one.

Two relatively big city teams founded at the same time who both tend to punch below their weight in terms of trophies won and who have each only been champions of Scotland four times. You'd think that their head-to-head record would be pretty even. Yet when we look at the overall tallies (in both league and cups) it stands at:

Hearts wins: 148
Draws: 99
Hibs wins: 86

Hearts wins are not all that far away from being double those of Hibs. Whether we like it or not, the story of the derby is one of Hearts domination, punctuated by occasional flurries of us getting our s**t together and bossing it for short spells, the 70s being the only truly sustained spell of Hibs being top dogs, with the McLeish era giving us a further tantalising taste of really bossing things. Those 99 draws also tell many a tale of superior Hibs teams somehow failing to make that superiority tell.

What can explain these almost freakish stats?! We talk about Hearts 'wanting it more'. Is that really true? If so, why don't WE want it more? It's not as if the fans of either club want it any less. Is it something that comes from within the clubs? It's certainly true to say Hearts have more 'Hearts-minded' folk running things than we do 'Hibs-minded' people at present.

Whatever the answer it's a pitiful set of stats to behold and the way the fortunes of both clubs are shaping up right now it looks like becoming significantly more pitiful still.

What can explain these almost freakish stats? I don't think it comes down to mentality, nor Hearts wanting it any more than Hibs. I think the stats are better explained by average attendance and player budget.

Since 1890 Hearts have an average attendance of 17,821.
https://www.fitbastats.com/hearts/club_records_league_attendance.php

Since 1893 Hibernian have an average attendance of 12,632
https://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/club_records_league_attendance.php

Whether this stat is due to Hearts being founded one year earlier than Hibs, thus having the advantage of being more established, or because the West of Edinburgh has a greater population than the East, I don't know. Perhaps this study on population and demographs could give some clue.
https://www.edinburghhsc.scot/the-ijb/jsna/populationanddemographics/#:~:text=100%25-,Key%20points%20include%3A,the%2065%2B%20populatio n%20in%20Edinburgh

But I think the fact that on average Hearts have had the bigger player budget would account for the stats more than mentality or anything else. Quite simply, it underlines the importance of Hibernian supporters continuing to come out in numbers. If they continue to grow in numbers, then eventually the stats will change in Hibernian's favour as the Hibs player budget will eventually become bigger than that of Hearts.

[Frazerbob]

Hearts period of relative domination came when we played at least 4 times per season. Ours came when we played twice a season.

[James Stephen]

What can explain these almost freakish stats? I don't think it comes down to mentality, nor Hearts wanting it any more than Hibs. I think the stats are better explained by average attendance and player budget.

Since 1890 Hearts have an average attendance of 17,821.
https://www.fitbastats.com/hearts/club_records_league_attendance.php

Since 1893 Hibernian have an average attendance of 12,632
https://www.fitbastats.com/hibs/club_records_league_attendance.php

Whether this stat is due to Hearts being founded one year earlier than Hibs, thus having the advantage of being more established, or because the West of Edinburgh has a greater population than the East, I don't know. Perhaps this study on population and demographs could give some clue.
https://www.edinburghhsc.scot/the-ijb/jsna/populationanddemographics/#:~:text=100%25-,Key%20points%20include%3A,the%2065%2B%20populatio n%20in%20Edinburgh

But I think the fact that on average Hearts have had the bigger player budget would account for the stats more than mentality or anything else. Quite simply, it underlies the importance of Hibernian supporters continuing to come out in numbers. If they continue to grow in numbers, then eventually the stats will change in Hibernian's favour.

I dont know how accurate those stats are, but assuming they are correct, its not a big surprise.

The stats can be largely explained by Hearts being the main Edinburgh club for a large part of their history, certainly pre WW2. Hearts were the local, establishment and protestant team in a city that valued those things highly.

Hibernian werent even that interested in competing as Edinburgh's top team, and for at least the first 3rd of Hibs' history, they were still trying to challenge Celtic to be the premier Irish Catholic club in Scotland (with, ahem, limited success!)

I think derby success is probably a bit of a self -fulfilling prophecy now (its real because people talk about it, therefore making it real).

I think its historically based on that sense of identity and vision that Hearts have had. Since year dot, Hearts aim has been to be the top club in Edinburgh, no matter how, its a singular vusion they have always had. Whats more, they are 100% confident that it is the case, they know they are 'Edina's darlings'.

Hibs identity is confused, and has changed a lot as they scrambled around to define, and to achieve, success. Added to the fact they were / are the club of what was a hated underclass, and though different now, the long legacy of that remains, and not only that, but were / are the second biggest and most important team of that underclass - second class citizens among second class citizens.

I think that history and confused and contested identity goes a long way to explaining why Hearts were traditionally the bigger club, and why they gained (and have maintained) the upper hand in derbies.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I dont know how accurate those stats are, but assuming they are correct, its not a big surprise.

The stats can be largely explained by Hearts being the main Edinburgh club for a large part of their history, certainly pre WW2. Hearts were the local, establishment and protestant team in a city that valued those things highly.

Hibernian werent even that interested in competing as Edinburgh's top team, and for at least the first 3rd of Hibs' history, they were still trying to challenge Celtic to be the premier Irish Catholic club in Scotland (with, ahem, limited success!)

I think derby success is probably a bit of a self -fulfilling prophecy now (its real because people talk about it, therefore making it real).

I think its historically based on that sense of identity and vision that Hearts have had. Since year dot, Hearts aim has been to be the top club in Edinburgh, no matter how, its a singular vusion they have always had. Whats more, they are 100% confident that it is the case, they know they are 'Edina's darlings'.

Hibs identity is confused, and has changed a lot as they scrambled around to define, and to achieve, success. Added to the fact they were / are the club of what was a hated underclass, and though different now, the long legacy of that remains, and not only that, but were / are the second biggest and most important team of that underclass - second class citizens among second class citizens.

I think that history and confused and contested identity goes a long way to explaining why Hearts were traditionally the bigger club, and why they gained (and have maintained) the upper hand in derbies.

I don't know if we can really use that history as an excuse for our derby record at least not in the last 50 years. It doesn't explain how bad Hearts teams get results consistently against better Hibs teams in that time.

I would absolutely agree with your assessment of how history plays a part in the relative size of the two clubs support even into the modern era, I've posted exactly the same theory myself on here before. It is a fact that sectarianism plays absolutely no part in what club a particular Edinburgh kid chooses to support these days. But that early history ensured that families in Edinburgh with a history of following a club passing it down from parent to child, uncles and aunties to neices and nephews etc would see more kids following Hearts than Hibs, it's not entirely the reason for the disparity in the size of the two clubs support, but it has to be a factor.