Edinburgh tram line's lack of Gaelic signs 'a major missed opportunity'

[Jamesie]

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-tram-lines-lack-gaelic-25792717

Now I know there is a Gaelic primary school in Leith, but as I understand it any monolingual Gaelic speakers who were left likely passed away in the 90s and were predominately found in the Western Isles. Leith has never been an overly Gaelic speaking community. In my view, there are far more pressing issues that this Councillor could be expending his attention on.

I’ve got nothing against anyone who wants to learn Gaelic - but personally if I had kids I’d prefer resources to be directed toward the teaching of, say, Mandarin, or even French or German (if that’s not overly old fashioned now!) which I would imagine will have far greater relevance and benefit in the years to come.

Am I unreasonable?

[Pretty Boy]

There's limited (for limited read almost zero) evidence Gaelic was ever widely spoken in Edinburgh or South East Scotland as a whole.

If we wanted historical relevance to Edinburgh we'd be better having signage in Cumbric, Old English or Early Scots.

[Kato]

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-tram-lines-lack-gaelic-25792717

Now I know there is a Gaelic primary school in Leith, but as I understand it any monolingual Gaelic speakers who were left likely passed away in the 90s and were predominately found in the Western Isles. Leith has never been an overly Gaelic speaking community. In my view, there are far more pressing issues that this Councillor could be expending his attention on.

I’ve got nothing against anyone who wants to learn Gaelic - but personally if I had kids I’d prefer resources to be directed toward the teaching of, say, Mandarin, or even French or German (if that’s not overly old fashioned now!) which I would imagine will have far greater relevance and benefit in the years to come.

Am I unreasonable?

Shouldn't they have it in old Northumbrian given Gaelic isn't really a traditional language in these parts?

Or have it in all the languages you mentioned.

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[CropleyWasGod]

Shouldn't they have it in old Northumbrian given Gaelic isn't really a traditional language in these parts?

Or have it in all the languages you mentioned.

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I think elements of the Gipsy language might be more relevant to Edinburgh.

A stoorie doon the Walk would be barry, ya radge.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

There's limited (for limited read almost zero) evidence Gaelic was ever widely spoken in Edinburgh or South East Scotland as a whole.

If we wanted historical relevance to Edinburgh we'd be better having signage in Cumbric, Old English or Early Scots.

Scots would be fine, should really be included in the school curriculum far more than just around about Burns night. I mind getting a row for speaking Scots at school and then getting an award for Burns recitals (honestly try and make that make sense), I’d prefer it not to be like that for bairns growing up nowadays.


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[Colr]

Cha toil leam guga idir!

[He's here!]

A 'missed opportunity' to do what? Foist Gaelic translations on to places which never had a Gaelic name in the first place? Waste of money which has been rightly knocked back IMHO.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Gaelic is a cornerstone of our country's heritage. It should be promoted in the capital city.

The language has been subjected to centuries of cultural genocide. That people get their knickers in a twist about its promotion is part of Scotland's unfortunate legacy of self-hating bigotry.

[JeMeSouviens]

There's limited (for limited read almost zero) evidence Gaelic was ever widely spoken in Edinburgh or South East Scotland as a whole.

If we wanted historical relevance to Edinburgh we'd be better having signage in Cumbric, Old English or Early Scots.

I don't think it's supposed to be about historical relevance. The idea is that Gaelic should be supported as a national language in Scotland.

Regrettably, I think the damage done to Gaelic over the last 3 centuries is too great for there to be a realistic chance of resuscitating it.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I don't think it's supposed to be about historical relevance. The idea is that Gaelic should be supported as a national language in Scotland.

Regrettably, I think the damage done to Gaelic over the last 3 centuries is too great for there to be a realistic chance of resuscitating it.

Hebrew was brought back from the dead by Israel. Obviously very different circumstances, but all it takes is for a country to actually believe in itself and not be pre-occupied with doing down its own culture at every turn.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hebrew was brought back from the dead by Israel. Obviously very different circumstances, but all it takes is for a country to actually believe in itself and not be pre-occupied with doing down its own culture at every turn.

Very different circumstances, they had the religious fervour to establish their state for one thing and also a practical need for disparate groups to coalesce around a common language.

Ireland is probably a closer analogue? Despite a century of efforts including compulsory schooling they only have 73000 (in 2016) reporting that they use it daily. It's a very tall order in a country with an already ubiquitous common language and especially one dominated by exposure to the media and culture of the UK and US. We're more likely to all end up speaking American English than gaelic I think.

[Iain G]

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-tram-lines-lack-gaelic-25792717

Now I know there is a Gaelic primary school in Leith, but as I understand it any monolingual Gaelic speakers who were left likely passed away in the 90s and were predominately found in the Western Isles. Leith has never been an overly Gaelic speaking community. In my view, there are far more pressing issues that this Councillor could be expending his attention on.

I’ve got nothing against anyone who wants to learn Gaelic - but personally if I had kids I’d prefer resources to be directed toward the teaching of, say, Mandarin, or even French or German (if that’s not overly old fashioned now!) which I would imagine will have far greater relevance and benefit in the years to come.

Am I unreasonable?

Would be more useful to write the english name upside down for all the Aussies and Kiwis who are in town :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Very different circumstances, they had the religious fervour to establish their state for one thing and also a practical need for disparate groups to coalesce around a common language.

Ireland is probably a closer analogue? Despite a century of efforts including compulsory schooling they only have 73000 (in 2016) reporting that they use it daily. It's a very tall order in a country with an already ubiquitous common language and especially one dominated by exposure to the media and culture of the UK and US. We're more likely to all end up speaking American English than gaelic I think.


We already have that wummin on the buses ,mangling some of the names of our streets. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

From the 2011 census for the Leith (Scottish Gaelic: Lìte) ward.

Language at Home

English 17,560
Gaelic 42
Scots 144
British Sign Language 64
Polish 884
Other language 1,810

[JeMeSouviens]

[/U][/I][/B]

We already have that wummin on the buses ,mangling some of the names of our streets. :rolleyes:

You should try google maps navigating around Inverness - brutal!

[J-C]

Historically Edinburgh and the Lowlands spoke English due to the many wars and English occupancy here, Gaelic was in the western lowlands and Highlands.

[Hibernian Verse]

Historically Edinburgh and the Lowlands spoke English due to the many wars and English occupancy here, Gaelic was in the western lowlands and Highlands.

I always thought French was spoken in Edinburgh and the central belt. Have I imagined that?

[Kato]

I always thought French was spoken in Edinburgh and the central belt. Have I imagined that?The French had connections to Edinburgh. There were French troops and sailors in Leith for a couple of centuries. "Gardy Loo" seems to be the most famous phrase connected with that time and its hard to believe that existed in isolation.

Old Northumbrian English was spoken in the Lothians, which is one of the roots of Scots.

I don't feel much connection to Gaelic but I also don't think I'm a self hating bigot because of that. The only Gaelic speakers in knew as a kid were an old couple from the Western Isles who lived in the same stair. They were Wee Free weirdos and openly hated Catholics and the people with Italian roots who lived in the street. That was bigotry.

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[CropleyWasGod]

The French had connections to Edinburgh. There were French troops and sailors in Leith for a couple of centuries. "Gardy Loo" seems to be the most famous phrase connected with that time and its hard to believe that existed in isolation.

Old Northumbrian English was spoken in the Lothians, which is one of the roots of Scots.

I don't feel much connection to Gaelic but I also don't think I'm a self hating bigot because of that. The only Gaelic speakers in knew as a kid were an old couple from the Western Isles who lived in the same stair. They were Wee Free weirdos and openly hated Catholics and the people with Italian roots who lived in the street. That was bigotry.

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Don't forget Mary Queen of Scots' entourage, who kipped up at the caravan site at Little France :greengrin

[Pretty Boy]

The French had connections to Edinburgh. There were French troops and sailors in Leith for a couple of centuries. "Gardy Loo" seems to be the most famous phrase connected with that time and its hard to believe that existed in isolation.

Old Northumbrian English was spoken in the Lothians, which is one of the roots of Scots.

I don't feel much connection to Gaelic but I also don't think I'm a self hating bigot because of that. The only Gaelic speakers in knew as a kid were an old couple from the Western Isles who lived in the same stair. They were Wee Free weirdos and openly hated Catholics and the people with Italian roots who lived in the street. That was bigotry.

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I'm broadly the same with regards to my feelings for Gaelic. I'm not 'triggered' by seeing it on the back of an ambulance but equally I can't say that it has motivated me to learn the language or show any other real interest in it.

The vast majority of Scots speak English, I can understand a desire to preserve an ancient language to some extent but the idea there is even the remotest chance of their being a widepread revival seems detached from reality. That's not being a self hating bigot, it's just the reality of the situation.

[Kato]

Don't forget Mary Queen of Scots' entourage, who kipped up at the caravan site at Little France :greengrinLittle France was later also inhabited by Huguenot refugees iirc, hence "Freetown" - Libre Town - Liberton.

There is also Burdiehouse (Bordeaux House), Picardy Place, probably more.

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[AgentDaleCooper]

Very different circumstances, they had the religious fervour to establish their state for one thing and also a practical need for disparate groups to coalesce around a common language.

Ireland is probably a closer analogue? Despite a century of efforts including compulsory schooling they only have 73000 (in 2016) reporting that they use it daily. It's a very tall order in a country with an already ubiquitous common language and especially one dominated by exposure to the media and culture of the UK and US. We're more likely to all end up speaking American English than gaelic I think.

I mean, 73,000 people using a language daily is pretty good, no? And on top of that, there's at least a capacity for comprehension of the language to some extent for about a million people, which allows them access to their country's history and culture on a much deeper level.

[CropleyWasGod]

Little France was later also inhabited by Huguenot refugees iirc, hence "Freetown" - Libre Town - Liberton.

There is also Burdiehouse (Bordeaux House), Picardy Place, probably more.

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This is why I love this site 😀

[The_Exile]

I agree with a lot of the above. I'm a stickler for romantic nostalgia and the idea of a gaelic revival of sorts is incredibly appealing to me. However, you have to be realistic about this, the generations coming through now are simply not interested (dinnae really want tae mention the fact they struggle with English as it is :greengrin). They would be much better served learning Spanish, which is spoken by around 600 million people (a very easy laguage to learn) across a vast area of our planet, than devoting time to Gaelic, which is spoken by less than 100,000 in a very localised area (and which isn't an easy language to learn, I've tried) IMO.

[Pretty Boy]

I agree with a lot of the above. I'm a stickler for romantic nostalgia and the idea of a gaelic revival of sorts is incredibly appealing to me. However, you have to be realistic about this, the generations coming through now are simply not interested (dinnae really want tae mention the fact they struggle with English as it is :greengrin). They would be much better served learning Spanish, which is spoken by around 600 million people (a very easy laguage to learn) across a vast area of our planet, than devoting time to Gaelic, which is spoken by less than 100,000 in a very localised area (and which isn't an easy language to learn, I've tried) IMO.

Learning Spanish was the best thing I ever did. I'm not fluent but can hold a conversation about general topics, read road signs and things like menus.

You get a much better service when a tourist if there is a feeling you have at least tried to make an effort. It has the added bonus that you can almost make a passable go at Italian as well.

With a really young family extensive travel isn't really on the menu in the near future but in the past a basic level of Spanish was so useful in not only South America but also across large swathes of the USA as well.

[Iain G]

Little France was later also inhabited by Huguenot refugees iirc, hence "Freetown" - Libre Town - Liberton.

There is also Burdiehouse (Bordeaux House), Picardy Place, probably more.

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I thought Picardy Place was named after Patrick Stewart? :greengrin

[Kato]

I thought Picardy Place was named after Patrick Stewart? :greengrinI have no data on that.

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[J-C]

I always thought French was spoken in Edinburgh and the central belt. Have I imagined that?

Probably a smattering due to Mary Queen of Scots and her mother Mary of Guise, hence the auld alliance. Little France was so called because Mary used to stay in Craigmillar Castle and her French entourage had cottages there.

[One Day Soon]

This is why I love this site 😀


It would have been Libre Ville surely?

[grunt]

A 'missed opportunity' to do what? Foist Gaelic translations on to places which never had a Gaelic name in the first place? Waste of money which has been rightly knocked back IMHO.
How much more would it cost to have a couple of extra words on a sign?

[Since90+2]

Absolute nonsense.

[danhibees1875]

How much more would it cost to have a couple of extra words on a sign?

The new signs down to leith - probably as close to nothing as makes no odds.

Having to replace all the current ones would be the more costly part.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The French had connections to Edinburgh. There were French troops and sailors in Leith for a couple of centuries. "Gardy Loo" seems to be the most famous phrase connected with that time and its hard to believe that existed in isolation.

Old Northumbrian English was spoken in the Lothians, which is one of the roots of Scots.

I don't feel much connection to Gaelic but I also don't think I'm a self hating bigot because of that. The only Gaelic speakers in knew as a kid were an old couple from the Western Isles who lived in the same stair. They were Wee Free weirdos and openly hated Catholics and the people with Italian roots who lived in the street. That was bigotry.

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Self hating bigots was a nonsense statement.

[monktonharp]

Gaelic is a cornerstone of our country's heritage. It should be promoted in the capital city.

The language has been subjected to centuries of cultural genocide. That people get their knickers in a twist about its promotion is part of Scotland's unfortunate legacy of self-hating bigotry.fully agree. The language was widely spoken until the 18th century. Ghe lowlands of Alba, did use it widely until the 13th century. However, like banning the wearing of Tartan after Culloden, It was prudent to add on the destruction of an Ancient language of these parts of "britain" . Collect, use , and form regiments from the Scots, send the Gaels to nova scotia/ breton Islands and dismantle their language bit by bit

[Jack]

Signs, such as those for public transport, should be as clear and concise as possible.

English is recognised by the vast majority of those potentially reading these signs and probably expected and more easily translated by those whose first language isn't English.

Anything else is just confusing clutter (including the potential Hibs stickers 😆) and should be avoided. (OK, just don't put the stickers over the writing.)

Folk getting the tram want to know the situation in the here and now. DO I NEED TO GET OFF AT THIS STOP? Not what may or may not have been spoken in history.

If this guy wants to promote Gaelic there's plenty advertising boards available.

[Keith_M]

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-tram-lines-lack-gaelic-25792717

Now I know there is a Gaelic primary school in Leith, but as I understand it any monolingual Gaelic speakers who were left likely passed away in the 90s and were predominately found in the Western Isles. Leith has never been an overly Gaelic speaking community. In my view, there are far more pressing issues that this Councillor could be expending his attention on.

I’ve got nothing against anyone who wants to learn Gaelic - but personally if I had kids I’d prefer resources to be directed toward the teaching of, say, Mandarin, or even French or German (if that’s not overly old fashioned now!) which I would imagine will have far greater relevance and benefit in the years to come.

Am I unreasonable?


No, I find the whole idea a total nonsense....and I say that as someone that's actually made the effort to learn Gaelic (though I'm far from 100% fluent).

Did you know, for instance, that an incredibly large number of the Gaelic translations of town and train station names, particularly in areas south of the highlands, are just made up?

[Bridge hibs]

Little France was later also inhabited by Huguenot refugees iirc, hence "Freetown" - Libre Town - Liberton.

There is also Burdiehouse (Bordeaux House), Picardy Place, probably more.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkJeez you learn something new everyday. I genuinely though Burdiehouse was named after a house of ill repute, wink wink

Seriously though, had a meal a couple of times in the Old Bordeaux but never thought of the link with Burdiehouse, I just thought it was owned by a French guy 🫣

[Keith_M]

Jeez you learn something new everyday. I genuinely though Burdiehouse was named after a house of ill repute, wink wink
...


You mean it's not?

There's yet another of my long standing beliefs gone down the pan :-(

[Hibernian Verse]

Great info on French speaking in Edinburgh, lads. I wasn't aware of the roots of Liberton at all, although google suggests it is from "Lepers Town" as a colony of Lepers lived there...

I've done a bit more digging (Wikipedia) and it seems Norman French was prevalent around the 12th century amongst nobles.

[Bridge hibs]

You mean it's not?

There's yet another of my long standing beliefs gone down the pan :-(Not that Im aware off, I was too busy enjoying the beers in that French guys Old Bordeaux 🫣

[Keith_M]

Great info on French speaking in Edinburgh, lads. I wasn't aware of the roots of Liberton at all, although google suggests it is from "Lepers Town" as a colony of Lepers lived there...

I've done a bit more digging (Wikipedia) and it seems Norman French was prevalent around the 12th century amongst nobles.


That's because of the Norman invasion of 1066, William the Conqueror and all that stuff. The language and ethnicity divide of that era was largely the foundation for our class-system.

They separated themselves by their knowledge of French and, when that eventually died out, they invented other ways that they still use today, e.g. the common use of Latin phrases and references to obscure poetry and literature used by many of our politicians that attended Eton, Harrow, etc.

[grunt]

Signs, such as those for public transport, should be as clear and concise as possible. Sounds like a dreary functional existence to me. I now discover we could have Gaelic signs with made up names! How good would that be! :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Sounds like a dreary functional existence to me. I now discover we could have Gaelic signs with made up names! How good would that be! :wink:

Considering the English language has made-up names for nearly everywhere around the globe, I think that line of argumentation could be deemed a bit hypocritical.

[Keith_M]

Considering the English language has made-up names for nearly everywhere around the globe, I think that line of argumentation could be deemed a bit hypocritical.


I'm just passing Schlossmilch in the car.

Sounds better in German. 😏

[grunt]

Considering the English language has made-up names for nearly everywhere around the globe, I think that line of argumentation could be deemed a bit hypocritical.
Well, perhaps, but I think you know what I mean.

[One Day Soon]

Great info on French speaking in Edinburgh, lads. I wasn't aware of the roots of Liberton at all, although google suggests it is from "Lepers Town" as a colony of Lepers lived there...

I've done a bit more digging (Wikipedia) and it seems Norman French was prevalent around the 12th century amongst nobles.


Liberton does not derive from French roots. And the historical and linguistic evidence argues that there never was a leper colony. 'Barley Farm on the hill' in old Anglian seems to be the explanation currently favoured. A Liberton Chapel existed at least as early as 1143 and probably earlier, making it almost contemporaneous with the Norman invasion of 1066, though I don't think William the Conqueror got this far north.

Sidebar: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle lived in Liberton from the ages of around five to eight, in what is now the medical practice next to Cameron Toll.

[Mibbes Aye]

Piershill

(lit.from French,'...the hill belonging to Pierre')

[Kato]

Liberton does not derive from French roots. And the historical and linguistic evidence argues that there never was a leper colony. 'Barley Farm on the hill' in old Anglian seems to be the explanation currently favoured. A Liberton Chapel existed at least as early as 1143 and probably earlier, making it almost contemporaneous with the Norman invasion of 1066, though I don't think William the Conqueror got this far north.

Sidebar: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle lived in Liberton from the ages of around five to eight, in what is now the medical practice next to Cameron Toll.Good info ta.

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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

No, I find the whole idea a total nonsense....and I say that as someone that's actually made the effort to learn Gaelic (though I'm far from 100% fluent).

Did you know, for instance, that an incredibly large number of the Gaelic translations of town and train station names, particularly in areas south of the highlands, are just made up?

Best example is “Glaschú Mheadhain” - there’s no Gaelic word for Central so the station is quite literally “Glasgow Middle”


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[Glory Lurker]

Best example is “Glaschú Mheadhain” - there’s no Gaelic word for Central so the station is quite literally “Glasgow Middle”


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Ah, now we're talking though. Glasgow took in thousands of Gaels. Argyll Street under the railway bridges is still referred to as the Heilan Man's Umbrella. Quite fitting in this case that the station has a Gaelic name.

[AgentDaleCooper]

A few points:

Firstly, I've not accused anyone of bigotry on here - what I've said is that peoples' dismissiveness of Gaelic is a legacy of Scotland's self hating bigotry. If you look at how Gaelic has been repressed over the generations, this is a totally reasonable statement. I would add to that that I've met plenty people with bigoted views about Gaelic, and seen plenty rubbish in comments and letters to newspapers. Some people really do appear to ****ing hate the language - don't ask me why.

Secondly, the chat about 'why not learn Mandarin, Spanish' etc., just seems disingenuous to me - if you really believe that this is what should be done in schools, then why is it pretty much only brought up in relation to the promotion of Gaelic? I get that some people are just saying that Gaelic is pointless, and these other ones would be of more utility - Gaelic has a different kind of utility to these languages, in that it's about being able to genuinely understand the place you come from, and keeping an extremely rich tradition of literature, folklore, music and every aspect of culture alive. Perhaps places like the Lothians, Borders, Aberdeen, Angus, Orkneys and Shetlands don't need to have compulsory Gaelic lessons in schools and stuff, but it should be strongly encouraged everywhere else in Scotland, and mandatory where the language is still in use in the highlands. Anyone moving to places like Skye, Harris etc without taking an interest in the language should GT absolute F.

This might seem a bit strong, but as a native speaker myself, I find it difficult to articulate the feeling of seeing people belittle the language, its importance and its value to society, without sounding like I'm trying to lump the Gaelic issue in with BLM type stuff - I absolutely am not. It just really, really gets my goat when people put down efforts to simply promote it, or criticise the mere existence of a Gaelic medium school (which, by the way, had to open because of a rapid increase in demand for Gaelic medium education that meant that Tollcross Primary, which used to have Gaelic and English units, was unable to provide enough classrooms) when they clearly haven't actually taken any steps to properly understand the history of the language - it's people who just go 'well, I'm not interested, and it doesn't have immediately obvious economic benefits, so it must be pointless'. When it comes to minority cultures, this is pretty much the definition of ignorance.

One final point, r.e. what seems to be criticism of the name 'Glaschu Mheadhain' because it doesn't literally translate to 'Glasgow Central'...this is exactly the kind of petty bollocks that does my nut. It's verging on colonial. You do get that different languages construct sentences and phrases differently? 'Glaschu Mheadhain' makes perfect sense in Gaelic. 'City-centre' translates as 'meadhain a bhaile', literally 'the middle of the city'. (sorry if you were innocently making some other point, by the way! :aok:)

[AgentDaleCooper]

Well, perhaps, but I think you know what I mean.

I think he knew exactly what you meant when he said your claim was hypocritical.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

A few points:

Firstly, I've not accused anyone of bigotry on here - what I've said is that peoples' dismissiveness of Gaelic is a legacy of Scotland's self hating bigotry. If you look at how Gaelic has been repressed over the generations, this is a totally reasonable statement. I would add to that that I've met plenty people with bigoted views about Gaelic, and seen plenty rubbish in comments and letters to newspapers. Some people really do appear to ****ing hate the language - don't ask me why.

Secondly, the chat about 'why not learn Mandarin, Spanish' etc., just seems disingenuous to me - if you really believe that this is what should be done in schools, then why is it pretty much only brought up in relation to the promotion of Gaelic? I get that some people are just saying that Gaelic is pointless, and these other ones would be of more utility - Gaelic has a different kind of utility to these languages, in that it's about being able to genuinely understand the place you come from, and keeping an extremely rich tradition of literature, folklore, music and every aspect of culture alive. Perhaps places like the Lothians, Borders, Aberdeen, Angus, Orkneys and Shetlands don't need to have compulsory Gaelic lessons in schools and stuff, but it should be strongly encouraged everywhere else in Scotland, and mandatory where the language is still in use in the highlands. Anyone moving to places like Skye, Harris etc without taking an interest in the language should GT absolute F.

This might seem a bit strong, but as a native speaker myself, I find it difficult to articulate the feeling of seeing people belittle the language, its importance and its value to society, without sounding like I'm trying to lump the Gaelic issue in with BLM type stuff - I absolutely am not. It just really, really gets my goat when people put down efforts to simply promote it, criticise the mere existence of a Gaelic medium school (which, by the way, had to open because of a rapid increase in demand for Gaelic medium education that meant that Tollcross Primary, which used to have Gaelic and English units, was unable to provide enough classrooms) by people who clearly haven't actually taken any steps to properly understand the history of the language - it's people who just go 'well, I'm not interested, and it doesn't have immediately obvious economic benefits, so it must be pointless'. When it comes to minority cultures, this is pretty much the definition of ignorance.

One final point, r.e. what seems to be criticism of the name 'Glaschu Mheadhain' because it doesn't literally translate to 'Glasgow Central'...this is exactly the kind of petty bollocks that does my nut. It's verging on colonial. You do get that different languages construct sentences and phrases differently? 'Glaschu Mheadhain' makes perfect sense in Gaelic. 'City-centre' translates as 'meadhain a bhaile', literally 'the middle of the city'. (sorry if you were innocently making some other point, by the way! :aok:)

I appreciate the apology. I’m not fluent in Gàidhlig (let’s use the proper name then, if you’re so passionate about it) by any means but I’d say I’m relatively proficient. I was just commenting on certain areas of Scotland never having Gàidhlig as a majority language, it’s always been either English, Scots, Northumbrian or French in some places.

Slàinte a charaidh


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[AgentDaleCooper]

I appreciate the apology. I’m not fluent in Gàidhlig (let’s use the proper name then, if you’re so passionate about it) by any means but I’d say I’m relatively proficient. I was just commenting on certain areas of Scotland never having Gàidhlig as a majority language, it’s always been either English, Scots, Northumbrian or French in some places.

Slàinte a charaidh


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Glè mhath, tha mi uabhasach duilich! I don't think it being a majority language is a necessary condition of its being worthy of promotion though - as has been noted, am baile mhòr Glaschu has long been a hub for speakers of the language - why not promote and indeed celebrate this?

R.e. my 'passion' - my dad was from Skye, and i spoke to him in Gaelic my whole life - it's less of a passion and more a part of who i actually am, and there's literally tens of thousands of people who feel the same way.

I know people from Skye who no longer speak the language due to the severity with which it was discouraged. "why turn the tap back on when it hurst so much to turn it off", they say. My dad spoke no English when he started primary school. When he reached high school he was able to study Gàidhlig, but was taught throigh the English medium, by a teacher whose first language was Gàidhlig, in class full of people in the same situation. It's absurd.

Don't get me started on the ****ing free church :fuming:

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Glè mhath, tha mi uabhasach duilich! I don't think it being a majority language is a necessary condition of its being worthy of promotion though - as has been noted, am baile mhòr Glaschu has long been a hub for speakers of the language - why not promote and indeed celebrate this?

Chan eil sin na dhuilgheadas a charaid, tha mi a’ tuigsinn mar a tha e. I understand your point and I agree to an extent, but I feel Scots should be represented far more as well. It’d be brilliant if Apple would have a Gáidhlig keyboard as well as Gaeilge, spend half the time correcting spelling [emoji1787]


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[AgentDaleCooper]

Chan eil sin na dhuilgheadas a charaid, tha mi a’ tuigsinn mar a tha e. I understand your point and I agree to an extent, but I feel Scots should be represented far more as well. It’d be brilliant if Apple would have a Gáidhlig keyboard as well as Gaeilge, spend half the time correcting spelling [emoji1787]


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Taing mhòr! Bu chòir dhomh ag ràth gun do chaochail m'athair dìreach romh àm nollaig, 's le sin tha mi rud beag frionasach mu dheidhinn a chuspair seo. 'S e sgrìobhadair a bh'ann - dean google air aonghas dubh, agus an dàn 'tha gàidhlig beò'.

I agree about Scots - but I think the two languages are often placed in opposition to each other, totally needlessly. Scots should be promoted along side Gàidhlig, not at its expense :aok:

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Taing mhòr! Bu chòir dhomh ag ràth gun do chaochail m'athair dìreach romh àm nollaig, 's le sin tha mi rud beag frionasach mu dheidhinn a chuspair seo. 'S e sgrìobhadair a bh'ann - dean google air aonghas dubh, agus an dàn 'tha gàidhlig beò'.

I agree about Scots - but I think the two languages are often placed in opposition to each other, totally needlessly. Scots should be promoted along side Gàidhlig, not at its expense :aok:

Tha mi uahamsach duilich a chluinntinn mu bhàs d’ athair, tha mi an dòchas gu bheil thu fhèin agus an teaghlach a’ cumail gu math. Gum beannaicheadh Dia thu.


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[McD]

A few points:

Firstly, I've not accused anyone of bigotry on here - what I've said is that peoples' dismissiveness of Gaelic is a legacy of Scotland's self hating bigotry. If you look at how Gaelic has been repressed over the generations, this is a totally reasonable statement. I would add to that that I've met plenty people with bigoted views about Gaelic, and seen plenty rubbish in comments and letters to newspapers. Some people really do appear to ****ing hate the language - don't ask me why.

Secondly, the chat about 'why not learn Mandarin, Spanish' etc., just seems disingenuous to me - if you really believe that this is what should be done in schools, then why is it pretty much only brought up in relation to the promotion of Gaelic? I get that some people are just saying that Gaelic is pointless, and these other ones would be of more utility - Gaelic has a different kind of utility to these languages, in that it's about being able to genuinely understand the place you come from, and keeping an extremely rich tradition of literature, folklore, music and every aspect of culture alive. Perhaps places like the Lothians, Borders, Aberdeen, Angus, Orkneys and Shetlands don't need to have compulsory Gaelic lessons in schools and stuff, but it should be strongly encouraged everywhere else in Scotland, and mandatory where the language is still in use in the highlands. Anyone moving to places like Skye, Harris etc without taking an interest in the language should GT absolute F.

This might seem a bit strong, but as a native speaker myself, I find it difficult to articulate the feeling of seeing people belittle the language, its importance and its value to society, without sounding like I'm trying to lump the Gaelic issue in with BLM type stuff - I absolutely am not. It just really, really gets my goat when people put down efforts to simply promote it, or criticise the mere existence of a Gaelic medium school (which, by the way, had to open because of a rapid increase in demand for Gaelic medium education that meant that Tollcross Primary, which used to have Gaelic and English units, was unable to provide enough classrooms) when they clearly haven't actually taken any steps to properly understand the history of the language - it's people who just go 'well, I'm not interested, and it doesn't have immediately obvious economic benefits, so it must be pointless'. When it comes to minority cultures, this is pretty much the definition of ignorance.

One final point, r.e. what seems to be criticism of the name 'Glaschu Mheadhain' because it doesn't literally translate to 'Glasgow Central'...this is exactly the kind of petty bollocks that does my nut. It's verging on colonial. You do get that different languages construct sentences and phrases differently? 'Glaschu Mheadhain' makes perfect sense in Gaelic. 'City-centre' translates as 'meadhain a bhaile', literally 'the middle of the city'. (sorry if you were innocently making some other point, by the way! :aok:)


I appreciate the strength of feeling you have for this and that you feel it’s part of who you are, and rightly so. The comment I’ve highlighted comes across as exactly the kind of attitude you’re railing against though - it reads as arrogant and telling anyone who doesn’t speak Gaelic that they’re unable to genuinely understand the place they come from.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I appreciate the strength of feeling you have for this and that you feel it’s part of who you are, and rightly so. The comment I’ve highlighted comes across as exactly the kind of attitude you’re railing against though - it reads as arrogant and telling anyone who doesn’t speak Gaelic that they’re unable to genuinely understand the place they come from.

I don't think it's arrogant at all. Everyone associates the highlands as being intrinsic to Scotland's identity. How can one fully understand that area without being able to access the wealth of literature and culture directly?

[McD]

I don't think it's arrogant at all. Everyone associates the highlands as being intrinsic to Scotland's identity. How can one fully understand that area without being able to access the wealth of literature and culture directly?


that’s the only way to learn about it is it? None of that literature has been translated into any other language? You’ve also just dismissed anyone who has learned anything about another country who doesn’t speak the native language as not fully understanding it.

my direct family can be traced back in the lothians for over 400 years, what you’re saying sounds like someone can’t be as Scottish as you because they don’t have some relationship with the highlands or speak Gaelic.

Comically enough, my family name is all over the history of the highlands, but apparently I don’t understand that properly.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Learning Spanish was the best thing I ever did. I'm not fluent but can hold a conversation about general topics, read road signs and things like menus.

You get a much better service when a tourist if there is a feeling you have at least tried to make an effort. It has the added bonus that you can almost make a passable go at Italian as well.

With a really young family extensive travel isn't really on the menu in the near future but in the past a basic level of Spanish was so useful in not only South America but also across large swathes of the USA as well.

I can just about get by in Spanish but I’m desperate for fluency, and it’s a struggle.

people who say it’s a “very easy language to learn” didn’t take my crap brain into account.

I want to learn French too.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I can just about get by in Spanish but I’m desperate for fluency, and it’s a struggle.

people who say it’s a “very easy language to learn” didn’t take my crap brain into account.

I want to learn French too.

Think English speakers tend to find German easier than French or Spanish tbh, something to do with it coming from the same family of languages so follows more of the same rules?


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[J-C]

Think English speakers tend to find German easier than French or Spanish tbh, something to do with it coming from the same family of languages so follows more of the same rules?


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The English language is a mish mash of several languages.

When the Romans left, the Germanic tribes of Angles, Saxons and Jutes moved into Britain from Europe, also the Norse came over from the north east. This gave us a mixture of old Celtic English, Latin, Old German and Norse. Add into the mix French which came in after 1066, words from old Gaelic languages and you then have one of the most complicated languages to learn.

[AgentDaleCooper]

that’s the only way to learn about it is it? None of that literature has been translated into any other language? You’ve also just dismissed anyone who has learned anything about another country who doesn’t speak the native language as not fully understanding it.

my direct family can be traced back in the lothians for over 400 years, what you’re saying sounds like someone can’t be as Scottish as you because they don’t have some relationship with the highlands or speak Gaelic.

Comically enough, my family name is all over the history of the highlands, but apparently I don’t understand that properly.

I don't really think there's such a thing as being more or less Scottish than someone else...if there is, I really don't care how Scottish I am, that's not my bag at all.

what I mean about Scotland is that the highlands are, in peoples imaginations, an integral part of the country's identity, along with bagpipes and kilts - all artefacts of Gaelic culture, diluted into biscuit tin, flag waving nonsense. You cannot fully understand Gaelic culture if you don't speak Gaelic. I'm not demanding that any 'true Scotsman' learns Gaelic - I'm just saying that Scotland, as a country, cannot know itself if Gaelic is lost, and a strong Gaelic culture is a very, very healthy thing.

Of course you can learn a great deal without learning the language of a culture, but there is something extremely fundamental about being able to access things in its original form, as a huge amount of the connotive power of a language is lost in translation. It's why anyone who specialises in the study of a certain culture is bound to learn the language(s) necessary to access original texts.

Here's an example for you - Sorley MacLean, one of the most important Scottish writers of the 20th century. You might dismiss that claim, but speak to anyone in the literary community in Scotland, Gaelic speaking or not, and they would agree with that statement. A lot of them do so purely on the basis of the translations of his work, but they would also tell you that the Gaelic in which they were written is infinitely better to the ear - this is not to mention the subtleties of meaning that are lost in translation. Read the poem below in English, then listen to the Gaelic, and tell me, even if you can't understand it word for word, that it's not a million times more musical.

link to Gaelic reading by the poet (https://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/track/44108?l=en) (there's a wee bit of pre-amble at the start, it begins at 00:20)

An Roghainn - The Choice

I walked with my reason
Out beside the sea.
We were together but it was
Keeping a little distance from me

Then it turned, saying:
Is it true that you heard
That your beautiful white love
Is getting married early on Monday?

I checked the heart that was rising
In my torn swift breast
And I said: I am certain;
Why would I lie about it?

How should I think that I would grab
The radiant golden star,
That I would catch it and put it
Prudently in my pocket?

I did not take a cross's death
In the hard extremity of Spain
And how then should I expect
The one new prize of fate?

I followed only the trifling way
Small, low, dry, lukewarm,
And how then should I meet
The thunderbolt of love?

But if I had the choice again
And stood on that headland
I would leap from heaven or hell
With a whole spirit and heart.

[AgentDaleCooper]

No better way to kill a thread stone dead than by offering people the opportunity to actually engage with the subject matter being discussed! :aok:

[Stairway 2 7]

No better way to kill a thread stone dead than by offering people the opportunity to actually engage with the subject matter being discussed! :aok:

A lot of people probably don't think it's a massive issue just now, when people can't pay their bills, public sector is on strike, Ukraine's public are being bombed, there is no route to independence, hibs only have Kevin Nisbet.

[weecounty hibby]

A lot of people probably don't think it's a massive issue just now, when people can't pay their bills, public sector is on strike, Ukraine's public are being bombed, there is no route to independence, hibs only have Kevin Nisbet.
In a roundabout way you've hit the nail on the head. It's nit really a massive issue and I'll never understand why people get so triggered by it

[Stairway 2 7]

In a roundabout way you've hit the nail on the head. It's nit really a massive issue and I'll never understand why people get so triggered by it

True, names on signs fills papers I suppose

[AgentDaleCooper]

In a roundabout way you've hit the nail on the head. It's nit really a massive issue and I'll never understand why people get so triggered by it

10000%

This is exactly my issue. I'm not asking everyone to learn Gaelic, I'm just asking them to stop bitching every time it's promoted, or actually learn something about it before moaning about it being pointless.

I know it's not everyone's concern, but that doesn't excuse ignorance.

R.e. why people are triggered by it - as i said in the first place, it's a legacy of Scotland's self-hating bigotry. Through the ages, Gaelic has been systematically supressed, undermined and devalued, and as a concequence, most people in Scotland have a complete blindspot about the subject, which leads to the kind of small-minded, petty, ignorant complaints found on this thread. :aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

10000%

This is exactly my issue. I'm not asking everyone to learn Gaelic, I'm just asking them to stop bitching every time it's promoted, or actually learn something about it before moaning about it being pointless.

I know it's not everyone's concern, but that doesn't excuse ignorance.

R.e. why people are triggered by it - as i said in the first place, it's a legacy of Scotland's self-hating bigotry. Through the ages, Gaelic has been systematically supressed, undermined and devalued, and as a concequence, most people in Scotland have a complete blindspot about the subject, which leads to the kind of small-minded, petty, ignorant complaints found on this thread. :aok:

Scotland's Gaelic, Catholic and independent past kind of dilutes the "We are the people" message from the "We are the people" people. They have to deny Scotland's multi-ethnic past to justify their claim of right.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Scotland's Gaelic, Catholic and independent past kind of dilutes the "We are the people" message from the "We are the people" people. They have to deny Scotland's multi-ethnic past to justify their claim of right.

the bizarre thing is, they've roundly succeeded in convincing the vast majority of indy supporting people, catholic people, and even a good number of Gaelic speaking people (thanks, Free Church!) that Gaelic culture is basically redundant and not worth saving. As I keep saying, and it's worth repeating - it's the legacy of Scotland's self hating bigotry. I include many Gaels in that, and it's nothing short of a tragedy. It is, in short, cultural genocide, and to get in the way of attempts to promote the language, especially from a place of ignorance, is to be complicit in this profound act of societal self harm.

[marinello59]

I have no data on that.

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This one deserves more recognition. :greengrin

[marinello59]

I don't really think there's such a thing as being more or less Scottish than someone else...if there is, I really don't care how Scottish I am, that's not my bag at all.

what I mean about Scotland is that the highlands are, in peoples imaginations, an integral part of the country's identity, along with bagpipes and kilts - all artefacts of Gaelic culture, diluted into biscuit tin, flag waving nonsense. You cannot fully understand Gaelic culture if you don't speak Gaelic. I'm not demanding that any 'true Scotsman' learns Gaelic - I'm just saying that Scotland, as a country, cannot know itself if Gaelic is lost, and a strong Gaelic culture is a very, very healthy thing.

Of course you can learn a great deal without learning the language of a culture, but there is something extremely fundamental about being able to access things in its original form, as a huge amount of the connotive power of a language is lost in translation. It's why anyone who specialises in the study of a certain culture is bound to learn the language(s) necessary to access original texts.

Here's an example for you - Sorley MacLean, one of the most important Scottish writers of the 20th century. You might dismiss that claim, but speak to anyone in the literary community in Scotland, Gaelic speaking or not, and they would agree with that statement. A lot of them do so purely on the basis of the translations of his work, but they would also tell you that the Gaelic in which they were written is infinitely better to the ear - this is not to mention the subtleties of meaning that are lost in translation. Read the poem below in English, then listen to the Gaelic, and tell me, even if you can't understand it word for word, that it's not a million times more musical.

link to Gaelic reading by the poet (https://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/track/44108?l=en) (there's a wee bit of pre-amble at the start, it begins at 00:20)

An Roghainn - The Choice

I walked with my reason
Out beside the sea.
We were together but it was
Keeping a little distance from me

Then it turned, saying:
Is it true that you heard
That your beautiful white love
Is getting married early on Monday?

I checked the heart that was rising
In my torn swift breast
And I said: I am certain;
Why would I lie about it?

How should I think that I would grab
The radiant golden star,
That I would catch it and put it
Prudently in my pocket?

I did not take a cross's death
In the hard extremity of Spain
And how then should I expect
The one new prize of fate?

I followed only the trifling way
Small, low, dry, lukewarm,
And how then should I meet
The thunderbolt of love?

But if I had the choice again
And stood on that headland
I would leap from heaven or hell
With a whole spirit and heart.

Great post. The sheer beauty of Gaelic is reason enough on its own for it to be preserved and celebrated on our street signs. You can’t really put a price on that.