Measure for measure

[Islington Hibs]

I have supported Hibernian since 1977. Of the major Scottish clubs Hibernian have probably underperformed over the years relative to their support/ income more than any other major club. We have managed 3rd in the league 3 times in 45 outings, never runners up and have regularly been in the 6-10th range plus our fair share of relegations. That is underperformance by any measure.

Over that time we have had a range of owners including one of Scotlands most successful entrepreneurs, umpteen managers and hundreds of players.

The question is why, despite a genuinely large latent support, good stadium and generally sound finances (particularly in recent years) do we do so badly? This is not a short term phenomena.

There is no simple answer but in my view if their is a common theme it is a) the club suffers an inferiority complex - a big time overconfidence but fragile b) a desire for instant success, tied in with frustration at repeated failure, which is generally illusory - sack too quickly , criticise, panic , waste money on short term fixes
c) and related to the others structural fragility and lack of belief.
d) introspection and elements of the support that like nothing more than to criticise simply piling pressure.

I would be genuinely interested in constructive views as to why we do so relatively badly (and I am not so naive to believe it’s easy particularly with Celtic and Rangers) but there is no good reason why we so seldom really challenge.

I would also urge we go easy on Ron Gordon. The issues pre date him and calling for his head is one thing but frankly there is no credible alternative with the magic money tree required. He’s been in the door not long and done some things well - notably professionalism - others well the jury is out, but hound him out, with no plan B, and it might make matters a whole load worse.

There are no clear answers and my suggestions are just that but if we can understand why we are failing it might provide an antidote.

[MelbourneHibees]

Our *******ing next door neighbours are just bigger than us and that's about it.

[Trinity Hibee]

Would agree with what you say above but hearts and Aberdeen probably feel the underachieve to a certain extent too. Aberdeen had great years under Ferguson but nothing before or since other than a couple of years under mcinnes when rangers were out of the league.

We as a club though should rarely be finishing out of top 4/5 in the league and should be consistently outperforming clubs who aren’t as big as us. In my lifetime (been going to games since mid 90s) that hasn’t been the case. Don’t have an answer for it sadly.

[rcarter1]

Our *******ing next door neighbours are just bigger than us and that's about it.

Agree this is more or less it - albeit the size difference itself only a small part. I may be wrong, but I think that Hearts have had almost constant financial investment (in addition to gate receipts/sponsorship) from around 1985 until present. Until we do the same, or their cash injection stops, we are always at a disadvantage. Every season.

I believe our Derby record until the 1980's was not too shabby?

[Greencore]

Simple answer, the players, managers even the boardroom staff can NOT handle the pressure of the size of the club and when they can and impress they leave for bigger and better clubs.

[green day]

Hearts are into their second decade with no trophy, and have not won the league cup for about 60 years.

Let's not pretend that it's just Hibs that have underperformed.

[Torto7062]

Hearts are into their second decade with no trophy, and have not won the league cup for about 60 years.

Let's not pretend that it's just Hibs that have underperformed.

I'm sure if someone said nae League Cup for decades and you'll be 3rd most years and getting Europe we'd be happy with that

[Scotty Leither]

Tom Hart was the last owner who went big on the playing side financially and it sadly didn’t work out.

The Waugh years are best consigned to history but mediocrity kind of became embedded under him, to the extent where we welcomed in a fantasist (Duff) and his slavering ******* mate (Gray) which nearly led us to the brink.

The Farmer years splits opinion on here into two camps of “he saved us from Mercer” to he never really wanted the club to extend itself and kick on to consistently challenge, which is where I was at with Farmer and Petrie.

The Gordons appear to drive everything towards commercial income and seem genuinely puzzled that their “revolutionary” recruitment policy isn’t working, and I honestly think the extremely competitive nature of Scottish football has taken them (and their signings) by surprise.

Who knows what the answer is? For me I’d like to see us qualify for European football 5/6 years in a row as I think that would be a genuine measure of progress, and one which shouldn’t really be beyond the reach of a club like Hibernian.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Agree this is more or less it - albeit the size difference itself only a small part. I may be wrong, but I think that Hearts have had almost constant financial investment (in addition to gate receipts/sponsorship) from around 1985 until present. Until we do the same, or their cash injection stops, we are always at a disadvantage. Every season.

I believe our Derby record until the 1980's was not too shabby?

our derby record was great from around 1965 to around 1981.

pre 1960s it was crap, and post 1970s it’s been horrific

[Pagan Hibernia]

I'm sure if someone said nae League Cup for decades and you'll be 3rd most years and getting Europe we'd be happy with that

2022 was the first time they finished above us for years

[Greencore]

2022 was the first time they finished above us for years

2019 was the last time we won against them.

Unacceptable.

[Pagan Hibernia]

It’s frustrating.

I don’t even mind that much if hearts are a bigger club, with (slightly) bigger support and more money.

what really annoys me is when we constantly underperform against clubs with 5000 or less supporters. That simply shouldn’t happen, not unless the smaller club has an owner from the Middle East. It can happen now and again, that’s football. But we’ve finished outside the top 5 far far too often

[Pagan Hibernia]

2019 was the last time we won against them.

Unacceptable.

I agree. Our derby record is inexplicably bad

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its barely worth discussing any more. This has been Hibs for nearly half a century and we haven't managed to get to the root of the problem in all that time, even our few successes have been followed by almost inevitable decline afterwards.

The only thing that's ever going to fix this club is mega rich owner willing to put his hand into his pocket put in meaningful money and pick the right staff able to spend it wisely. I won't hold my breath.

[Lago]

Its barely worth discussing any more. This has been Hibs for nearly half a century and we haven't managed to get to the root of the problem in all that time, even our few successes have been followed by almost inevitable decline afterwards.

The only thing that's ever going to fix this club is mega rich owner willing to put his hand into his pocket put in meaningful money and pick the right staff able to spend it wisely. I won't hold my breath.
Never going to happen, things will continue as they have in the past.

[CentreForward]

Our *******ing next door neighbours are just bigger than us and that's about it.


Not even remotely bigger than us. It’s exactly that sort of view and attitude that has made us underperform for so so long.

[Baader]

Let's be honest Hearts and Aberdeen have underperformed for much of their existence too. Hibs certainly have though there's no denying that.

[CL0762]

Not even remotely bigger than us. It’s exactly that sort of view and attitude that has made us underperform for so so long.

Take off the green tinted specs. By most measures they are, as much as it ****ing pains me to say.

What view the fans have has absolutely no bearing on ‘underperformance’.

[mcohibs]

Not even remotely bigger than us. It’s exactly that sort of view and attitude that has made us underperform for so so long.

Nah, they are.

[WestCoastHibby]

Not even remotely bigger than us. It’s exactly that sort of view and attitude that has made us underperform for so so long.

My department at work has 9 guys in it . 2 not remotely interested in football. Of the 7 left , 1 Livvy/Celtic depending on the wind direction, myself Hibs and the rest?? Well it ain’t Edinburgh city
That’s just my department, I’d say we need to be improving not just looking through the glass

[Torto7]

The undercover Gunts are out in force tonight I see. Pure massive you are.

The reason why is our persistent obsession with trying to play expansive football. That's also one of the reasons I love us though as well.

[Iain G]

I think this is only A Winter's Tale and we will be fine by spring

[Forza Fred]

Agree that if we chase Ron away we could be in worse trouble than we currently are.

No point burning down the house because we are angry.

Ron MUST know that his club structure and strategy isn’t leading to acceptable results on the park, and again he MUST know that change is required.

I still think he has the best of intentions, but he needs to come out and do a mea culpa soon, and not just try and double down on current practices.

The words ‘Hibs’ and ‘crisis’ are appearing a bit too often, and calm reflection is required, as opposed to torches and pitchforks.

[Glory Lurker]

I think this is only A Winter's Tale and we will be fine by spring

David Essex reference? You've lost me this time!

[Iain G]

David Essex reference? You've lost me this time!

Unintentionally David Essex...was going for the original, not the cover 🤣

[CropleyWasGod]

Unintentionally David Essex...was going for the original, not the cover 🤣

A real comedy of errors.

[Irish_Steve]

Not even remotely bigger than us. It’s exactly that sort of view and attitude that has made us underperform for so so long.

The fact that Hearts have won more Derbies at Easter Road shows that they are a better club than us.

[Iain G]

A real comedy of errors.

Ach it was much ado about nothing

[GreenCastle]

We hire folk with weak mentality ? Mangers and players.

No co-incidence we win the Scottish Cup with players who are more mentally tough than the current lot.

[loanheadhibby]

Not even remotely bigger than us. It’s exactly that sort of view and attitude that has made us underperform for so so long.

They've always been a bit bigger than us.
Even in the 50s they had a slightly bigger fan base I'm told.

[greenpaper55]

In my lifetime we have had three great managers, Shaw, Stein and Turnbull. A few who were good for a time then the wheels came off such as Shankly, Miller , Mowbray, Collins and Stubs. Feel free to add to any i have missed . The rest have been a total waste of time and money, I don’t think we have an inferiority complex playing against the Hearts just inferior managers and players who have been picked by accountants ie Rod who must be the main culprit. Now we have the Lone Ranger and Tonto in charge who who wouldn’t know a good manager to save themselves

[Pagan Hibernia]

In my lifetime we have had three great managers, Shaw, Stein and Turnbull. A few who were good for a time then the wheels came off such as Shankly, Miller , Mowbray, Collins and Stubs. Feel free to add to any i have missed . The rest have been a total waste of time and money, I don’t think we have an inferiority complex playing against the Hearts just inferior managers and players who have been picked by accountants ie Rod who must be the main culprit. Now we have the Lone Ranger and Tonto in charge who who wouldn’t know a good manager to save themselves

I’d have thought Lennon fitted into that category far better than Stubbs.

Stubbs won the cup in his final match at Hibs.

[heretoday]

In my lifetime we have had three great managers, Shaw, Stein and Turnbull. A few who were good for a time then the wheels came off such as Shankly, Miller , Mowbray, Collins and Stubs. Feel free to add to any i have missed . The rest have been a total waste of time and money, I don’t think we have an inferiority complex playing against the Hearts just inferior managers and players who have been picked by accountants ie Rod who must be the main culprit. Now we have the Lone Ranger and Tonto in charge who who wouldn’t know a good manager to save themselves

Good post but I must mention McLeish who dragged us up from the championship and brought several excellent players to Easter Road. Then he abandoned us much as Stein did.

[He's here!]

Good post but I must mention McLeish who dragged us up from the championship and brought several excellent players to Easter Road. Then he abandoned us much as Stein did.

McLeish was aided by the levels of cash coming into the Scottish game at that time via TV deals but there's no denying he used it build a cracking team - as well as utilising his standing in the game to attract the likes of Sauzee and Latapy to ER. With players of that calibre we were never going to be overawed by an Edinburgh derby and he was the first boss since Turnbull to make Hearts fearful of the fixture.

We were on the slide when he left though. Stein left us when we were looking good for a league and Scottish Cup double.

[He's here!]

I have supported Hibernian since 1977. Of the major Scottish clubs Hibernian have probably underperformed over the years relative to their support/ income more than any other major club. We have managed 3rd in the league 3 times in 45 outings, never runners up and have regularly been in the 6-10th range plus our fair share of relegations. That is underperformance by any measure.

Over that time we have had a range of owners including one of Scotlands most successful entrepreneurs, umpteen managers and hundreds of players.

The question is why, despite a genuinely large latent support, good stadium and generally sound finances (particularly in recent years) do we do so badly? This is not a short term phenomena.

There is no simple answer but in my view if their is a common theme it is a) the club suffers an inferiority complex - a big time overconfidence but fragile b) a desire for instant success, tied in with frustration at repeated failure, which is generally illusory - sack too quickly , criticise, panic , waste money on short term fixes
c) and related to the others structural fragility and lack of belief.
d) introspection and elements of the support that like nothing more than to criticise simply piling pressure.

I would be genuinely interested in constructive views as to why we do so relatively badly (and I am not so naive to believe it’s easy particularly with Celtic and Rangers) but there is no good reason why we so seldom really challenge.

I would also urge we go easy on Ron Gordon. The issues pre date him and calling for his head is one thing but frankly there is no credible alternative with the magic money tree required. He’s been in the door not long and done some things well - notably professionalism - others well the jury is out, but hound him out, with no plan B, and it might make matters a whole load worse.

There are no clear answers and my suggestions are just that but if we can understand why we are failing it might provide an antidote.

Soft underbelly/a bit soft/boy band.

Descriptions used by John Hughes, Ryan Stevenson and Neil Lennon when talking about how other clubs perceived Hibs.

Since Tom Hart's tenure I would say we've never had stewardship which really shouts the club's name from the rooftops and really 'gets' how big a club we could be. Sure, we ended up in a mess by the end of his ownership but while he was perhaps too loyal to Turnbull he was still keeping us in the headlines via the George Best signing, pioneering shirt sponsorship etc.

Duff and Gray tried to rekindle that but their naivety was badly exposed and while Farmer/Petrie were safe hands it took the arrival of Leeann Dempster to show them what the club should be aspiring to on the pitch. I love the story of her leaving the directors' box at Tynecastle when we were losing the cup tie under Stubbs because she's a bad loser and ending up jumping around the dressing room celebrating the equaliser with Dylan McGeough.

Ron seems like another who just doesn't 'get it'. It's been mentioned on another thread but Ryan Stevenson's recollections of the derby were of Hearts goals v Hibs being looped on the team bus and the constant mantra of not losing the derby being drilled into Hearts teams, even when Hibs were the stronger side on paper. With only sporadic exceptions (ie managers like Turnbull, McLeish and Lennon) why don't we as a club adopt that kind of approach?

I also think there's mileage in what others have said about the fan base (as well as the players) being too passive. I include myself in that because we were away for a couple of days over new year and I didn't even bother checking the derby score until this morning so as not to spoil the break. Some folk get annoyed by the phrase 'accepting mediocrity' but IMHO it's a phrase which more often than not sums Hibs up from top to bottom.

[He's here!]

I’d have thought Lennon fitted into that category far better than Stubbs.

Stubbs won the cup in his final match at Hibs.

But he (in tandem with Leeann) also had us on an undeniable upward trajectory and had put in place the framework of a side which was in with a shout of finishing second in the top flight after we got promoted.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I agree. Our derby record is inexplicably bad

An elaborate betting scam?