Pope Benedict XVI Dies

[WhileTheChief..]

Watching this on the news just now, he was 95.

Getting universally positive, respectful, coverage. I wonder how long it will be until we get people casting up every bad deed of the Catholic church from the last 2000 years?

[hibsbollah]

An extremely reactionary figure, arch traditionalist and put back reforms thirty years or stopped the tide of liberal interpretations of what Christianity should be, depending on your point of view.

[Sylar]

Oh great...just in time for the Old Firm game!

[Pretty Boy]

There will be smarter people than me who will struggle to breakdown Benedict XVI. A conflicting character and one who wasn't much liked across the board. The liberals saw him as an arch traditionalist who ruthlessly dealt with dissent or the questioning of Catholic dogma. The traditionalists saw him as a wolf in sheeps clothing who had not only enabled but also been partial cause of the reforms they hate so much. On the latter point he was certainly one of the young theologians who sparked John XXIII into life and brought about Vatican II.

People who met him often spoke of a warm, friendly man who was married his considerable intelligence with a sharp wit. He was a brilliant theologian and I think history will remember him fondly for that if nothing else.

It's impossible to speak of either Benedict or his predecessor without mentioning the child abuse scandals, it simply can't be ignored. In his position previous to becoming Pope it was something that he was aware of and at least partially responsible for. He was both horrified by it whilst being equally unable to deal with it. He was the wrong man and simply didn't understand what was required. That isn't to excuse his inaction, far from it. As Pope he did invite independent psychologists, behaviourists, criminologists etc into the Vatican and the wider church to conduct a study into why child abuse was happening. There were some important findings and it's now on his successors to implement the changes needed. The glacial pace that change happens in the Church may mean we wait a while.

Finally I think he deserves credit for knowing his limitations as Pope. It was a position he never wanted or coveted. His willingness to break with tradition and retire to play his piano and study the liturgy was how he always envisaged his latter years. He rarely courted controversy in his retirement and avoided the potential schism some envisaged; breaking rank only a couple of times to give tacit approval to a document arguing against married priests and again to denounce his successors Amazonian synod.

My hope is that he is the last of the heriarchy who truly remember and embraced the pre Vatican II church. His successor has stacked the decks in the College of Cardinals in the favour of the liberals. There are more non Europeans than ever before wearing the red vestments these days. Hopefully he has done enough that when the time comes we get a Francis II rather than a Pius XIII.

As for Benedict XVI, for those of us who believe in such he will be judged as we all will. RIP.

[marinello59]

RIP Pope Benedict.

[Hibernia&Alba]

An extremely reactionary figure, arch traditionalist and put back reforms thirty years or stopped the tide of liberal interpretations of what Christianity should be, depending on your point of view.

Yes, it depends upon one's view, I suppose. He wasn't my cup of tea, with his very conservative outlook, and I'm much more comfortable with wee papa Francis. Also, as PB explains very well, Benedict's inability/unwillingness to fully confront child abuse within the clergy will stain his legacy. I'm sure we will get a fuller account of what he did and didn't do now he's gone, but I think it's reasonable to say he could have dealt with it all better. Perhaps it isn't fair of me to comment, given my own ambivalence about organised religion, though I did start going to Mass again after the death of my best friend last year.

Either way, 95 is some life.

[Ozyhibby]

There will be smarter people than me who will struggle to breakdown Benedict XVI. A conflicting character and one who wasn't much liked across the board. The liberals saw him as an arch traditionalist who ruthlessly dealt with dissent or the questioning of Catholic dogma. The traditionalists saw him as a wolf in sheeps clothing who had not only enabled but also been partial cause of the reforms they hate so much. On the latter point he was certainly one of the young theologians who sparked John XXIII into life and brought about Vatican II.

People who met him often spoke of a warm, friendly man who was married his considerable intelligence with a sharp wit. He was a brilliant theologian and I think history will remember him fondly for that if nothing else.

It's impossible to speak of either Benedict or his predecessor without mentioning the child abuse scandals, it simply can't be ignored. In his position previous to becoming Pope it was something that he was aware of and at least partially responsible for. He was both horrified by it whilst being equally unable to deal with it. He was the wrong man and simply didn't understand what was required. That isn't to excuse his inaction, far from it. As Pope he did invite independent psychologists, behaviourists, criminologists etc into the Vatican and the wider church to conduct a study into why child abuse was happening. There were some important findings and it's now on his successors to implement the changes needed. The glacial pace that change happens in the Church may mean we wait a while.

Finally I think he deserves credit for knowing his limitations as Pope. It was a position he never wanted or coveted. His willingness to break with tradition and retire to play his piano and study the liturgy was how he always envisaged his latter years. He rarely courted controversy in his retirement and avoided the potential schism some envisaged; breaking rank only a couple of times to give tacit approval to a document arguing against married priests and again to denounce his successors Amazonian synod.

My hope is that he is the last of the heriarchy who truly remember and embraced the pre Vatican II church. His successor has stacked the decks in the College of Cardinals in the favour of the liberals. There are more non Europeans than ever before wearing the red vestments these days. Hopefully he has done enough that when the time comes we get a Francis II rather than a Pius XIII.

As for Benedict XVI, for those of us who believe in such he will be judged as we all will. RIP.

The child abuse allegations will never go away until they are dealt with. The Catholic Church is still protecting these people.


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[Pretty Boy]

The child abuse allegations will never go away until they are dealt with. The Catholic Church is still protecting these people.


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I think it varies across the board now.

In Scotland the Church has handed responsibility for safeguarding to an independent body. Any allegations of abuse are investigated by people separate and distinct from the Catholic Church. They then recommend what action is required and involve the police if they believe a crime has been committee. The Bishops and Archbishops no longer have the ability to just quietly move a priest and hope no one finds out.

Said plan was put in motion after the scandal involving Keith O'Brien (one of his victims is a personal acquaintance of mine and was consulted on the plans) and was finally implemented last year. I believe it leans heavily on schemes put in place elsehwere and they stem from a Vatican directive.

Of course that's not enough. The Church has to apologies for abuse every time they are asked or required to with not a single caveat attached. Further historical cases can't just be ignored in the hope the perpetrators will die soon, there are active investigations and the line from the top is certainly firmer and clearer now but glacial pace, clericalism, self preservation etc etc means the scandal continues. It's a mess that so many organisations are dealing with but as the biggest and most high profile the Church really needs to take the lead.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

He had a real tough act to follow on from John Paul II. An anti-soviet Polish priest was always going to be a winning ticket at that time and Pope Benedict seemed to be a back to basics, safe pair of hands. Would appear that the end of his life hasn't been very pleasant due to ill health. RIP.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it varies across the board now.

In Scotland the Church has handed responsibility for safeguarding to an independent body. Any allegations of abuse are investigated by people separate and distinct from the Catholic Church. They then recommend what action is required and involve the police if they believe a crime has been committee. The Bishops and Archbishops no longer have the ability to just quietly move a priest and hope no one finds out.

Said plan was put in motion after the scandal involving Keith O'Brien (one of his victims is a personal acquaintance of mine and was consulted on the plans) and was finally implemented last year. I believe it leans heavily on schemes put in place elsehwere and they stem from a Vatican directive.

Of course that's not enough. The Church has to apologies for abuse every time they are asked or required to with not a single caveat attached. Further historical cases can't just be ignored in the hope the perpetrators will die soon, there are active investigations and the line from the top is certainly firmer and clearer now but glacial pace, clericalism, self preservation etc etc means the scandal continues. It's a mess that so many organisations are dealing with but as the biggest and most high profile the Church really needs to take the lead.

Everything should be referred to the police. They are the independent body that should be dealing with this. Why is an extra layer needed for the church?


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[Pretty Boy]

Everything should be referred to the police. They are the independent body that should be dealing with this. Why is an extra layer needed for the church?


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The extra layer is so the matter does get refered to the police if appropriate, this way there can be no internal cover up.

In any organisation inappropriate behaviour might be reported to a HR department or a senior manager and they will make a decision on what to do. In the case of the Church that doesn't happen so it removes any ability to swiftly move a Priest or intimidate a victim. A Bishop or other figure who is made aware of any issue must immediately inform the safeguarding organisation who will then deal with it with no internal church involvement. If they don't and it later comes to light they are open to prosecution themselves.

The complainer can of course miss out this step, as they can in any organisation, and go straight to the Police.

It's not just about abuse either. It's to ensure compliance with PVG and Disclosure. Any adult volunteer, Priest, nun, Deacon etc who has contact with children will have their application handled by said independent organisation. This was done internally for years but there was a feeling greater transparency was achieved if it was done independently.

[Ozyhibby]

The extra layer is so the matter does get refered to the police if appropriate, this way there can be no internal cover up.

In any organisation inappropriate behaviour might be reported to a HR department or a senior manager and they will make a decision on what to do. In the case of the Church that doesn't happen so it removed any ability to swiftly move a Priest or intimidate a victim. A Bishop or other figure who is made aware of any issue must immediately inform the safeguarding organisation who will then deal with it with no internal church involvement. If they don't and it later comes to light they are open to prosecution themselves.

The complainer can of course miss out this step, as they can in any organisation, and go straight to the Police.

It's not just about abuse either. It's to ensure compliance with PVG and Disclosure. Any adult volunteer, Priest, nun, Deacon etc who has contact with children will have their application handled by said independent organisation. This was done internally for years but there was a feeling greater transparency was achieved if it was done independently.

I doubt I will ever see past the systemic nature of the abuse to be able to give a fair hearing. And the fact the cover ups continue means it’s unlikely I’ll ever change my mind. The church know of thousands of cases of abuse and they still protect the abusers. Every time a new case surfaces there are apologies and then they carry on. I’m not confident the abuse and cover ups are not happening now.
I grew up a Catholic and was an alter boy through school. Thankfully I never experienced any untoward behaviour to myself or anyone around me but it still makes me sick thinking about the callousness of the church when dealing with the victims.
The only time I enter the church now is out of politeness for weddings, funerals etc.
I would never let my kids anywhere near it and I’ve brought them up atheists anyway. Although the atheist bit probably would have happened regardless.


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[Pretty Boy]

I doubt I will ever see past the systemic nature of the abuse to be able to give a fair hearing. And the fact the cover ups continue means it’s unlikely I’ll ever change my mind. The church know of thousands of cases of abuse and they still protect the abusers. Every time a new case surfaces there are apologies and then they carry on. I’m not confident the abuse and cover ups are not happening now.
I grew up a Catholic and was an alter boy through school. Thankfully I never experienced any untoward behaviour to myself or anyone around me but it still makes me sick thinking about the callousness of the church when dealing with the victims.


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I don't think anyone wants to make excuses for what happened and continues to happen but equally I think the Scottish system is a good one.

The SCSSA standard practice is to report all allegations to Police and they are subject to a Scot Gov led audit annually. Whilst it would be a stretch to say it eliminates the risk of a cover up altogether it certainly makes it far harder moving forward.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/shailjapatel/status/1609282521845608448?s=46&t=4eiKXSJ3xbi7ujmxQRB8eg


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[Betty Boop]

He covered up child sex abuse.

[Hibrandenburg]

He covered up child sex abuse.

Has there ever been an effort to uncover child abuse from within the Catholic Church? Genuine question.

[Ozyhibby]

Has there ever been an effort to uncover child abuse from within the Catholic Church? Genuine question.

I can’t think of any cases where the church has discovered it and brought it to the authorities? It’s usually the other way round.


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