Kick it out

[theonlywayisup]

In the lead up to a "showcase" Old Firm game, I was wondering what the Kick it Out organisation were saying about sectarianism on their website. I was a bit surprised to see nothing, no reference to religion at all. Anyone know the reason for this?

Home Page | Kick It Out (https://www.kickitout.org/)

On their website, they state "It is discrimination, in all its forms. Racism. Sexism. Homophobia. Transphobia. Kick It Out are here to put an end to all forms of discrimination within sport." So why no mention of religious discrimination.

[marinello59]

Maybe because it’s an England based organisation where sectarian singing doesn’t happen. .

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Maybe because it’s an England based organisation where sectarian singing doesn’t happen. .

I reckon James McClean might disagree with you there.


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[Paulie Walnuts]

I reckon James McClean might disagree with you there.


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Was going to say that, sure he gets it everywhere he goes.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Was going to say that, sure he gets it everywhere he goes.

The guy is a tit, don’t get me wrong. In regards to social media, anyway. However, is someone refusing to wear a symbol on their jersey really deserving of the abuse he takes, even without the context? The ***** he needs to put up with is brutal to say the least


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[marinello59]

I reckon James McClean might disagree with you there.


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Which would be covered by racism rather than religious bigotry.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Which would be covered by racism rather than religious bigotry.

Nah, don’t see Jonny Evans or Stuart Dallas branded a “Fenian *******” very often


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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Maybe because it’s an England based organisation where sectarian singing doesn’t happen. .

It very much does, more so in pubs than at games but, it's rife.

[marinello59]

It very much does, more so in pubs than at games but, it's rife.

So do we get regular Old Firm style sectarian singalongs at grounds in England then? Given that outside of two teams in Scotland it doesn’t really happen up here I’d be surprised.
Kick it out has no need to categorise it separately from Racism, maybe we shouldn’t here either.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

So do we get regular Old Firm style sectarian singalongs at grounds in England then? Given that outside of two teams in Scotland it doesn’t really happen up here I’d be surprised.
Kick it out has no need to categorise it separately from Racism, maybe we shouldn’t here either.

Old Firm only ones up here that sing sectarian songs in stadiums on a regular basis, true. But when it comes to supporters buses and in pubs ourselves and them are hardly angels. You can add Airdrie and a whole host of juniors teams into that list as well.


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[Brightside]

Nobody in a position of power gives a toss about sectarian chanting. It’s constant. Sky continually apologise. SFA say nothing. It was also clear as day from Celtic fans the other day and there will be plenty of it from both ends at both derbies. Hibs say nothing. All other teams say nothing. Such a weird country we live in.

[The Flea]

Nobody in a position of power gives a toss about sectarian chanting. It’s constant. Sky continually apologise. SFA say nothing. It was also clear as day from Celtic fans the other day and there will be plenty of it from both ends at both derbies. Hibs say nothing. All other teams say nothing. Such a weird country we live in.

If The Rangers fans sing anything from their songbook, most in our stands hiss and boo.
When Celtic were singing The Boys of the Old Brigade and Oo Ah, up the ##, complete silence from our end.

[Pretty Boy]

Old Firm only ones up here that sing sectarian songs in stadiums on a regular basis, true. But when it comes to supporters buses and in pubs ourselves and them are hardly angels. You can add Airdrie and a whole host of juniors teams into that list as well.


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I think there would have to be real clarity on what is meant by sectarianism for any kind of liability to work.

I listened to the Celtic support the other night and I heard multiple songs that I don't believe belong in a Scottish football stadium. Could I name one that is sectarian in the strictest sense of the word though? I'd struggle. The likes of the Boys of The Old Brigade, Fields of Athenry, A Nation Once Again, The Celtic Symphony, the Sam song and Grace certainly aren't sectarian. Inappropriate and uncomfortable though some of them are. I sang the latter to my daughter when she was a baby (she's called Grace). It's a beautiful song. I'd say Rangers fans would argue that something like Derry's Walls isn't sectarian either. When one or other break out the Billy Boys or Roamin in the Gloamin then they have no defence whatsoever, with other songs it's a different matter.

The Boys of the Old Brigade, line about joing the IRA and all, wouldn't raise any more of an eyebrow in Dublin as the Skye Boat Song or Flower of Scotland would in Edinburgh. People automatically think of the troubles when they hear that name, probably plenty of those belting it out midweek included, but there's a context.

It's a total minefield and short of banning any song not explicitly about football (would that include Sunshine on Leith?) then I'm not sure what you can do.

[marinello59]

If The Rangers fans sing anything from their songbook, most in our stands hiss and boo.
When Celtic were singing The Boys of the Old Brigade and Oo Ah, up the ##, complete silence from our end.

Oo ah up the ra was booed loudly.

[marinello59]

I think there would have to be real clarity on what is meant by sectarianism for any kind of liability to work.

I listened to the Celtic support the other night and I heard multiple songs that I don't believe belong in a Scottish football stadium. Could I name one that is sectarian in the strictest sense of the word though? I'd struggle. The likes of the Boys of The Old Brigade, Fields of Athenry, A Nation Once Again, The Celtic Symphony, the Sam song and Grace certainly aren't sectarian. Inappropriate and uncomfortable though some of them are. I sang the latter to my daughter when she was a baby (she's called Grace). It's a beautiful song. I'd say Rangers fans would argue that something like Derry's Walls isn't sectarian either. When one or other break out the Billy Boys or Roamin in the Gloamin then they have no defence whatsoever, with other songs it's a different matter.

The Boys of the Old Brigade, line about joing the IRA and all, wouldn't raise any more of an eyebrow in Dublin as the Skye Boat Song or Flower of Scotland would in Edinburgh. People automatically think of the troubles when they hear that name, probably plenty of those belting it out midweek included, but there's a context.

It's a total minefield and short of banning any song not explicitly about football (would that include Sunshine on Leith?) then I'm not sure what you can do.

:agree:

[marinello59]

Old Firm only ones up here that sing sectarian songs in stadiums on a regular basis, true. But when it comes to supporters buses and in pubs ourselves and them are hardly angels. You can add Airdrie and a whole host of juniors teams into that list as well.


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It’s more if a central belt thing.
Kick it Out campaign in England so I won’t be criticising them when we should be dealing with it ourselves.

[Glory Lurker]

I'd like to see how the broadcasters would react if fans of non-OF teams, to make a point, sang the cheeks' offensive songs.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I think there would have to be real clarity on what is meant by sectarianism for any kind of liability to work.

I listened to the Celtic support the other night and I heard multiple songs that I don't believe belong in a Scottish football stadium. Could I name one that is sectarian in the strictest sense of the word though? I'd struggle. The likes of the Boys of The Old Brigade, Fields of Athenry, A Nation Once Again, The Celtic Symphony, the Sam song and Grace certainly aren't sectarian. Inappropriate and uncomfortable though some of them are. I sang the latter to my daughter when she was a baby (she's called Grace). It's a beautiful song. I'd say Rangers fans would argue that something like Derry's Walls isn't sectarian either. When one or other break out the Billy Boys or Roamin in the Gloamin then they have no defence whatsoever, with other songs it's a different matter.

The Boys of the Old Brigade, line about joing the IRA and all, wouldn't raise any more of an eyebrow in Dublin as the Skye Boat Song or Flower of Scotland would in Edinburgh. People automatically think of the troubles when they hear that name, probably plenty of those belting it out midweek included, but there's a context.

It's a total minefield and short of banning any song not explicitly about football (would that include Sunshine on Leith?) then I'm not sure what you can do.

Agree with that actually, who decides what is sectarian and what is political? It’s an exceptionally blurred line in the context of Catholicism/Protestantism and Republicanism/Loyalism. Also love the song Grace, one of my favourites.


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[ErinGoBraghHFC]

It’s more if a central belt thing.
Kick it Out campaign in England so I won’t be criticising them when we should be dealing with it ourselves.

Yep I understand your point completely, all I was saying is it’s not JUST a west central Scotland problem like many like to pretend


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[Brightside]

Oo ah up the ra was booed loudly.

It was. But ignored by our club.

[Glory Lurker]

Oo ah up the ra was booed loudly.

By the folk who knew what was coming. I heard it and didn't boo because it was too late. Them and their Govanlovas have a repertoire that's about 10 percent fitba, the rest is stuff no ordinary football fan recognises.

[marinello59]

It was. But ignored by our club.

What do you want the club to do? It may offend some but the chant itself is not illegal and it’s not attacking anyone else’s beliefs. As Pretty Boy said earlier, it ain’t that simple.

I’m not defending Celtic fans by the way. :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

What do you want the club to do? It may offend some but the chant itself is not illegal and it’s not attacking anyone else’s beliefs. As Pretty Boy said earlier, it ain’t that simple.

I’m not defending Celtic fans by the way. :greengrin

I'm not so certain about that particular chant not being illegal to be honest, although admittedly I'm certainly no lawyer.

The IRA is a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK and as such under the Terrorism Act 2000 it is a criminal offence to;

- invite support for a proscribed organisation (the support invited need not be material support, such as the provision of money or other property, and can also include moral support or approval).

I daresay that a good lawyer would probably get you off for chanting something like Ooh ahh up the Ra but at a very basic level I wouldn't be certain that the chant doesn't contravene the above offence in some way as the chant is clearly intended to show support/approval for the IRA.

For the avoidance of doubt, and in the interests of a balanced argument, the same goes for any songs sung by Rangers fans in support of the UDA and the UVF.

I would personally quite like Hibs to come out and condemn such chants whenever they take place in games involving us. I understand why they don't though as it jeopardises us financially which is clearly the number one priority for every club in Scotland when it comes to Celtic and Rangers and the conduct of their supporters - the silence is always deafening.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

I'm not so certain about that particular chant not being illegal to be honest, although admittedly I'm certainly no lawyer.

The IRA is a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK and as such under the Terrorism Act 2000 it is a criminal offence to;

- invite support for a proscribed organisation (the support invited need not be material support, such as the provision of money or other property, and can also include moral support or approval).

I daresay that a good lawyer would probably get you off for chanting something like Ooh ahh up the Ra but at a very basic level I wouldn't be certain that the chant doesn't contravene the above offence in some way as the chant is clearly intended to show support/approval for the IRA.

For the avoidance of doubt, and in the interests of a balanced argument, the same goes for any songs sung by Rangers fans in support of the UDA and the UVF.

I would personally quite like Hibs to come out and condemn such chants whenever they take place in games involving us. I understand why they don't though as it jeopardises us financially which is clearly the number one priority for every club in Scotland when it comes to Celtic and Rangers and the conduct of their supporters - the silence is always deafening.

No, the PROVISIONAL IRA are a proscribed organisation, the IRA mentioned in boys of the old brigade etc no longer exists and hasn’t for nearly 100 years. There ye go, I’m no lawyer but I’ve just got you off a charge [emoji6]


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[Sylar]

No doubt we'll be hearing a lot of such songs come Monday - It would have been bad anyway, but more-so now that a former Pope just died.

As for 'Kick It Out', isn't it 'Nil By Mouth' that mostly operate in Scotland?

There used to be sectarian issues in England (especially during Liverpool derbies from memory) but not for a long time. Scouse will be better placed to comment on that though - I'm certainly not 100% confident in my assertion.

[Sir David Gray]

No, the PROVISIONAL IRA are a proscribed organisation, the IRA mentioned in boys of the old brigade etc no longer exists and hasn’t for nearly 100 years. There ye go, I’m no lawyer but I’ve just got you off a charge [emoji6]


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List of proscribed groups linked to Northern Ireland related terrorism

Continuity Army Council
Cumann na mBan
Fianna na hEireann
Irish National Liberation Army
Irish People’s Liberation Organisation
Irish Republican Army
Loyalist Volunteer Force
Orange Volunteers
Red Hand Commando
Red Hand Defenders
Saor Eire
Ulster Defence Association
Ulster Freedom Fighters
Ulster Volunteer Force

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version#list-of-proscribed-groups-linked-to-northern-ireland-related-terrorism

[Hibernia&Alba]

It very much does, more so in pubs than at games but, it's rife.

I didn't know that. What kind of sectarian songs and at which clubs? Must admit I've never heard any sectarian songs in the pubs around Old Trafford I've been in.

[Scorrie]

Just seen that former Pope Benedict has died today. I’m sure that won’t be mentioned in song at the OF game…

[Brightside]

Just seen that former Pope Benedict has died today. I’m sure that won’t be mentioned in song at the OF game…

Not just the OF game.

[Pretty Boy]

Just seen that former Pope Benedict has died today. I’m sure that won’t be mentioned in song at the OF game…

Sure it won't be an issue.

After all Rangers fans were the defenders of moral righteousness when there were distasteful remarks made about and interuptions to minutes silence for the Queen. I'm certain they will lead by example and show us all how it should be done with class and dignity.

[The Modfather]

Agree with that actually, who decides what is sectarian and what is political? It’s an exceptionally blurred line in the context of Catholicism/Protestantism and Republicanism/Loyalism. Also love the song Grace, one of my favourites.


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Just ban anything sectarian or political at matches. Doesn’t mean clubs can’t still support initiatives like anti racism campaigns or equality campaigns during the week out with the 90 minutes of the match.

[marinello59]

I'm not so certain about that particular chant not being illegal to be honest, although admittedly I'm certainly no lawyer.

The IRA is a proscribed terrorist organisation in the UK and as such under the Terrorism Act 2000 it is a criminal offence to;

- invite support for a proscribed organisation (the support invited need not be material support, such as the provision of money or other property, and can also include moral support or approval).

I daresay that a good lawyer would probably get you off for chanting something like Ooh ahh up the Ra but at a very basic level I wouldn't be certain that the chant doesn't contravene the above offence in some way as the chant is clearly intended to show support/approval for the IRA.

For the avoidance of doubt, and in the interests of a balanced argument, the same goes for any songs sung by Rangers fans in support of the UDA and the UVF.

I would personally quite like Hibs to come out and condemn such chants whenever they take place in games involving us. I understand why they don't though as it jeopardises us financially which is clearly the number one priority for every club in Scotland when it comes to Celtic and Rangers and the conduct of their supporters - the silence is always deafening.

I did consider that when I made my post. I’m far from certain that chanting Oo Ah Up the Ra could ever result in a successful prosecution. ( And again, I’m not defending the Celtic fans here.)

[Bridge hibs]

Sure it won't be an issue.

After all Rangers fans were the defenders of moral righteousness when there were distasteful remarks made about and interuptions to minutes silence for the Queen. I'm certain they will lead by example and show us all how it should be done with class and dignity.🤣

Yeah and then followed up by the other erse cheek demanding apologies and statements etc etc

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

List of proscribed groups linked to Northern Ireland related terrorism

Continuity Army Council
Cumann na mBan
Fianna na hEireann
Irish National Liberation Army
Irish People’s Liberation Organisation
Irish Republican Army
Loyalist Volunteer Force
Orange Volunteers
Red Hand Commando
Red Hand Defenders
Saor Eire
Ulster Defence Association
Ulster Freedom Fighters
Ulster Volunteer Force

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version#list-of-proscribed-groups-linked-to-northern-ireland-related-terrorism

Fair enough, don’t see how you can ban something that doesn’t exist though? The IRA is and has been for many years now a mix of different organisations (PIRA, OIRA, CIRA etc).


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[theonlywayisup]

I suppose my reasoning for the OP is that there has been a big focus on curbing racial discrimination, quite rightly. Whenever someone is caught calling someone a Black **** then there is public condemnation of the incident. We have everyone from politicians, ex-footballers etc taking every opportunity to talk about the issue.

Yet, it feels like people can get away with calling someone a Fenian **** and it's swept under carpet. In today's society we've got to address this cancer that's been building up for years and likely is only going to get worse.

You could day this is a society problem, not a football problem. However, I don't believe a guy in (say) Elgin would be saying discriminatory things about another person, without The Rangers/Celtic context.

[Scouse Hibee]

It very much does, more so in pubs than at games but, it's rife.

Haven’t lived in England for thirty years but never heard a peep at games whenI lived there.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I didn't know that. What kind of sectarian songs and at which clubs? Must admit I've never heard any sectarian songs in the pubs around Old Trafford I've been in.

Some very questionable songs heard in pubs around Upton Park when I used to go down there. Jews, Irish, Catholics and Germans were all fair game.

[marinello59]

Some very questionable songs heard in pubs around Upton Park when I used to go down there. Jews, Irish, Catholics and Germans were all fair game.

Good old fashioned right wing racism.

[Keith_M]

If The Rangers fans sing anything from their songbook, most in our stands hiss and boo.
When Celtic were singing The Boys of the Old Brigade and Oo Ah, up the ##, complete silence from our end.



Sorry but the latter part is nonsense.

Not sure if it was as loud this week but the booing of the 'Up The Ra' nonsense last time we played them was as deafening as the silence from the Clubs, Media and the SFA/SPFL

[theonlywayisup]

This is what I don't understand! In England, there is condemnation from all when fans start to chant homophobic comments against a manager, from all sides even from the club that the fans doing the chanting support. Yet, in Scotland, we have individuals being called a Fenian ******* and there's zero comments. It's become accepted that this sort of thing happens.

Man Utd 3-1 Everton: FA to speak with United about homophobic chanting - BBC Sport (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64197462)

[Not So Young]

Unfortunately nobody cares

Approx a year ago Holyrood were again looking at sectarianism at football asked the SFA for match supervisor reports, they wanted to see how often Sectarian singing was being reported.

The SFA at first refused to send them and only agreed once the committee agreed not to make any of the information public

If it's being sweept under the carpet at that level what hope do we have

[Carheenlea]

Unfortunately nobody cares

Approx a year ago Holyrood were again looking at sectarianism at football asked the SFA for match supervisor reports, they wanted to see how often Sectarian singing was being reported.

The SFA at first refused to send them and only agreed once the committee agreed not to make any of the information public

If it's being sweept under the carpet at that level what hope do we have

Who has the real influence at the SFA? You have Rod Petrie there who doesn’t appear to have a sectarian bone in his body, so why wouldn’t the SFA wish to work as hard as anyone else to eradicate sectarianism from our game?

Who’s putting an arm up the SFA’s back here?

[The Modfather]

Who has the real influence at the SFA? You have Rod Petrie there who doesn’t appear to have a sectarian bone in his body, so why wouldn’t the SFA wish to work as hard as anyone else to eradicate sectarianism from our game?

Who’s putting an arm up the SFA’s back here?

Rod didn’t get to where he is by wanting any kind of reform at the SFA. He got the job because of his ability to remain invisible and not rock the boat of the SFA gravy train.

It’s not unique to Rod, everyone in Scottish football just looks out for themselves and doesn’t think of doing anything for the greater good unless it benefits them.