The Early History

[Nakedmanoncrack]

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-early-history-of-hearts-and-hibs-football-clubs-tickets-441484852077

Sounds like an interesting event.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Not interested in them in the slightest 💩

[BILLYHIBS]

Not interested in them in the slightest 💩

This

[BILLYHIBS]

HMFC refused to recognise us voted against us and refused to let us join their wee League that is all anyone needs to know


GGTTH

[CentreLine]

HMFC refused to recognise us voted against us and refused to let us join their wee League that is all anyone needs to know


GGTTH

I think it is likely to be an interesting and eye upending event. Better to have a factual, well researched, account to form opinions on rather than snippets of information that suit an agenda of division. I think the two clubs have much more in common than divides them. A few nasty incidents came out way through our neighbours but if this is presented in an open minded and factual way it could be fascinating. If able I’d definitely like to go along to this event and if it becomes polarised, agenda led propaganda then I can always leave. It’s free after all.
I’ll be interested to hear how hearts justify the 1874 date. Historically it is clear they were formed before we were but I understand there is no provenance that happened before 1875🧐

[Since452]

Don't want to be associated with that rancid club in any shape or form.

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-early-history-of-hearts-and-hibs-football-clubs-tickets-441484852077

Sounds like an interesting event.

Quoting because the link isn't "live" for me. It seems to change once a post is quoted.

I'm interested in the history of football, and that of our oldest rivals. I've read a couple of Hearts related books, the Macrae's battalion one springs to mind, but I know I read a history of the club type book too. Hearts have been part of our history and I wouldn't rule out an event just because it included their past.

Nah, doesnae work

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-early-history-of-hearts-and-hibs-football-clubs-tickets-441484852077?aff=ebdshpsearchautocomplete

EDit: Speakers: David Allan and Tom Wright.

Chair: Jim Orr, FoMBL Convener

David Allan has been researching Hearts, Edinburgh and Scottish Football History for over 25 years. The ‘London Hearts Website’ has an almost complete record for Heart of Midlothian matches and players. He was involved in setting up the Heart of Midlothian Football Club Museum in 2016. The first football club in Scotland to have a dedicated Museum. Since 2018 He has managed the Museum.

Tom Wright was taken to his first game at Easter Road aged nine in 1957 and has been supporting the Club ever since. Now retired after many years running a picture framing business in the city, he is the official Club Historian and a member of the Hibernian Historical Trust, a supporters-led initiative whose aims are to protect, preserve and promote the proud history of the Club. Tom is author of The Golden Years: Hibernian in the Days of The Famous Five; Hibernian: from Joe Baker to Turnbull's Tornadoes; Leith: A Glimpse of Times Past and co-author of Crops: The Alex Cropley Story and Hibs Through and Through: The Eric Stevenson Story.

[Mick O'Rourke]

HMFC refused to recognise us voted against us and refused to let us join their wee League that is all anyone needs to know


GGTTH

Agree 100%

Had football clubs in Edinburgh/Leith and surrounding areas been more welcoming of Irish immigrants and let them join their teams/clubs,i would likely not be writing this.

The animosity and bigotry towards Irish immigrants was vile then and continued to be for decades.
Its still around though, simmering away.
I was born in Edinburgh's "Little Ireland" and witnessed this growing up in the 50s/60s
I recall my younger brother playing for Salvesen u14s or 15s in a Cup Final.He got a hat trick.
A man watching the game praised him to the coaching staff and asked for his name.
When told the surname (my elder brother was still at Hibs), the man said thanks and left.
He was a rAngers scout .We never heard from him again !!
So a hundred years after our founding,clubs still didn't want to employ players with Irish Catholic sounding names.

Maybe it was the case that Hearts had other motives.
Nonetheless,they tried to "kill us as a club" back then:agree:
So nothing changes,eh?

[BILLYHIBS]

I think it is likely to be an interesting and eye upending event. Better to have a factual, well researched, account to form opinions on rather than snippets of information that suit an agenda of division. I think the two clubs have much more in common than divides them. A few nasty incidents came out way through our neighbours but if this is presented in an open minded and factual way it could be fascinating. If able I’d definitely like to go along to this event and if it becomes polarised, agenda led propaganda then I can always leave. It’s free after all.
I’ll be interested to hear how hearts justify the 1874 date. Historically it is clear they were formed before we were but I understand there is no provenance that happened before 1875��

Agree

I would not want to discourage anyone from attending

I am sure it will be both interesting and thought provoking just not for me

As you say both clubs have much in common both played their early football at the Meadows indeed Hibs’ first match was against Hearts there

Hearts were indeed formed in 1874 after amalgamating with St Andrews FC who had given them a trouncing - adding their three best players to their fit young laddies -with the proviso that they change their name to Heart of Midlothian the name of a local dance hall and change their colours from Red White and Blue to Maroon

From a Hibs point of view I would highly recommend Alan Lugton’s excellent trilogy The Making of Hibernian to any posters who have not yet had the opportunity to read them

A well researched, well documented factual labour of love detailing the history of our great club up to the start of the Second World War

[bigwheel]

Agree 100%

Had football clubs in Edinburgh/Leith and surrounding areas been more welcoming of Irish immigrants and let them join their teams/clubs,i would likely not be writing this.

The animosity and bigotry was vile then and continued to be for decades.
Its still around though, simmering away.
I recall my younger brother playing for Salvesen u15s in a Cup Final.He got a hat trick.
A man watching the game praised him to the coaching staff and asked for his name.
When told the surname (my elder brother was still at Hibs), the man said thanks and left.
He was a rAngers scout . We never heard from him again !!

So a hundred years after our founding,clubs still didn't want to employ players with Irish Catholic sounding names !!

Sorry for the wee rant, but yes,Hertz tried to "kill us as a club" then:agree:
So nothing changes,eh?

Sure. But wouldn’t it be interesting to hear some honest reflections of those early moments …the presenters are historians as well as fans . Most of Scotland was anti catholic at that time, and it still pervades society today . My family were based in the cowgate at this time. Hearing more about those years would be interesting to me . After all, I’d watch a documentary on a crime on Netflix, but It’s not because i support the criminal

[Mick O'Rourke]

Sure. But wouldn’t it be interesting to hear some honest reflections of those early moments …the presenters are historians as well as fans . Most of Scotland was anti catholic at that time, and it still pervades society today . My family were based in the cowgate at this time. Hearing more about those years would be interesting to me . After all, I’d watch a documentary on a crime on Netflix, but It’s not because i support the criminal

My reflections are honest!:greengrin

Historians ,like economists,can differ.
As can being partisan !

[superfurryhibby]

Sure. But wouldn’t it be interesting to hear some honest reflections of those early moments …the presenters are historians as well as fans . Most of Scotland was anti catholic at that time, and it still pervades society today . My family were based in the cowgate at this time. Hearing more about those years would be interesting to me . After all, I’d watch a documentary on a crime on Netflix, but It’s not because i support the criminal

The Hearts guy is from London Hearts. He's a fantastic curator of Hearts history on his website and a long standing, if infrequent, poster on here.

The Hibs man is Ted, ahem, Tom Wright, who should need no introduction. Suffice to say that he's a lovely man and deeply immersed in Hibs history.

[BILLYHIBS]

London Hearts is an excellent site for gathering information up there with ihibs ( fitbastats)

[Kato]

Agree

I would not want to discourage anyone from attending

I am sure it will be both interesting and thought provoking just not for me

As you say both clubs have much in common both played their early football at the Meadows indeed Hibs’ first match was against Hearts there

Hearts were indeed formed in 1874 after amalgamating with St Andrews FC who had given them a trouncing - adding their three best players to their fit young laddies -with the proviso that they change their name to Heart of Midlothian the name of a local dance hall and change their colours from Red White and Blue to Maroon

From a Hibs point of view I would highly recommend Alan Lugton’s excellent trilogy The Making of Hibernian to any posters who have not yet had the opportunity to read them

A well researched, well documented factual labour of love detailing the history of our great club up to the start of the Second World WarMaybe the history of Hearts has been more researched these days but at one time it was thought there were two Heart of Midlothians. One formed in Washington Square and a later one from the Ballroom Dancing club which took the name after the Washington Square version folded. Washington Square later changed its name to Holyrood Square and was situated where the Scottish Parliament buildings are now.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[chippy]

Sure. But wouldn’t it be interesting to hear some honest reflections of those early moments …the presenters are historians as well as fans . Most of Scotland was anti catholic at that time, and it still pervades society today . My family were based in the cowgate at this time. Hearing more about those years would be interesting to me . After all, I’d watch a documentary on a crime on Netflix, but It’s not because i support the criminal

My Uncle Jim was signed by Hearts and farmed out to Musselburgh Juniors in the 1930s, who I understand he captained. He and my my dad were English born with a Catholic mum so both were practising RCs. My mum was Catholic with Irish roots going back to the West Port/ Cannongate and Pleasance. My brothers and I were Hibs fans, brought up in Clermiston. My Uncle Jim regaled us with tales of playing for Musselburgh and being slagged by fans for being a Catholic. Worst place was apparently Fife. Thankfully today things are much less bitter

[oneone73]

The Hearts guy is from London Hearts. He's a fantastic curator of Hearts history on his website and a long standing, if infrequent, poster on here.

The Hibs man is Ted Wright, who should need no introduction. Suffice to say that he's a lovely man and deeply immersed in Hibs history.
It’s Tom, not Ted, isn't it?

[BILLYHIBS]

Maybe the history of Hearts has been more researched these days but at one time it was thought there were two Heart of Midlothians. One formed in Washington Square and a later one from the Ballroom Dancing club which took the name after the Washington Square version folded. Washington Square later changed its name to Holyrood Square and was situated where the Scottish Parliament buildings are now.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

Yip fits in with St Andrews thumping Hearts and the three breakaway guys starting a new St Andrews/Hearts from the ballroom

[Mick O'Rourke]

My Uncle Jim was signed by Hearts and farmed out to Musselburgh Juniors in the 1930s, who I understand he captained. He and my my dad were English born with a Catholic mum so both were practising RCs. My mum was Catholic with Irish roots going back to the West Port/ Cannongate and Pleasance. My brothers and I were Hibs fans, brought up in Clermiston. My Uncle Jim regaled us with tales of playing for Musselburgh and being slagged by fans for being a Catholic. Worst place was apparently Fife. Thankfully today things are much less bitter


Talking Clerry
Me and my brothers would sometimes get grief coming home from school on the bus..
Bottom of Clermiston Drive,Queensferry Road end,sometimes an ambush,tae !
Two of the clowns went to a fee paying school,too.
We weren't singled out cos we supported Hibs,but that we were "papist bees"
The ones that liked fitba were hertz fans.
So it has never surprised me when i see the union flag at tynie and hear the hello hello song.
Or believe the myth that they didnt want Mercer to suceed .

[superfurryhibby]

It’s Tom, not Ted, isn't it?

It is, mixing my Ted's with my Tom's. Ted's a good lad and a fine Hibernian too.

[Joe6-2]

Sure. But wouldn’t it be interesting to hear some honest reflections of those early moments …the presenters are historians as well as fans . Most of Scotland was anti catholic at that time, and it still pervades society today . My family were based in the cowgate at this time. Hearing more about those years would be interesting to me . After all, I’d watch a documentary on a crime on Netflix, but It’s not because i support the criminal

I lived through the West in the 60’s, my dads job, at times we couldn’t let some people he knew that we were catholic.
There were adverts posted in job and homes columns in newspapers, national papers, that stated catholics need not apply!

[gbhibby]

Yip fits in with St Andrews thumping Hearts and the three breakaway guys starting a new St Andrews/Hearts from the ballroom
So they should actually be named Strictly Heart of Midlothian

[BILLYHIBS]

So they should actually be named Strictly Heart of Midlothian

Always thought it had something to do with the Heart of Midlothian mosaic on the pavement on the High Street or the Walter Scott novel ?

Who knew it was Strictly?

[gbhibby]

Always thought it had something to do with the Heart of Midlothian mosaic on the pavement on the High Street or the Walter Scott novel ?

Who knew it was Strictly?
Hullo hullo we are the tango boys

[BILLYHIBS]

The Black Heart of Midlothian was the name of the condemned cell at the old Tolbooth Jail which is more like it 😀

[chippy]

I lived through the West in the 60’s, my dads job, at times we couldn’t let some people he knew that we were catholic.
There were adverts posted in job and homes columns in newspapers, national papers, that stated catholics need not apply!

I managed an Engineering Distribution company in Leith in the mid 1980s. I helped out our Glasgow Branch a few times when their manager left. During a chat with my likeable boss- the UK manager - he told me he couldn’t have me working in the Glasgow branch permanently as I was a Catholic. Even though he knew I was an atheist. Once a….. you know how the story goes

[Kato]

The Black Heart of Midlothian was the name of the condemned cell at the old Tolbooth Jail which is more like it [emoji3]That is exactly where the mosaic is, right on the site of that cell. The plebs had seen so much injustice in the Tollbooth its telling the tradition of gobbing on it became so entrenched. Huck too.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Crunchie]

HMFC refused to recognise us voted against us and refused to let us join their wee League that is all anyone needs to know


GGTTH
Not sure about any of that, but when we won the 2nd division title for the first time in 1894 it was Celtic who voted against us being promoted. Rangers and Hearts both voted in our favour.

[BILLYHIBS]

Not sure about any of that, but when we won the 2nd division title for the first time in 1894 it was Celtic who voted against us being promoted. Rangers and Hearts both voted in our favour.

According to Alan Lugton The Making of Hibernian The Brave Years 1893-1914 p14 (tel:1893-1914 p14) Hearts gave us no support and surprisingly it was strongly suspected that Celtic gave us no support either probably afraid of the resurgent Edinburgh Irishmen stealing their thunder

There had been a history of bad feeling between the two Edinburgh clubs from the very start borne out of jealousy and religion

They did not appreciate us knocking them out of cups and attracting a big support

Hibs only received one vote from 42 such was our unpopularity from the Scottish League member clubs in 1894

https://thecelticstar.com/celtics-complicated-relationship-with-hibernian-part-4

Edit:

We gained sweet revenge on Celtic by knocking them out of the Scottish Cup in 1894 Celtic having refused to play against us since 1889

[gbhibby]

Hearts played in Red White and Blue hoops around the time that we played in Green and White hoops,I wonder what was the reason for that? They dyed these Jerseys maroon. Probably a red dye gone wrong.

[BILLYHIBS]

Hearts played in Red White and Blue hoops around the time that we played in Green and White hoops,I wonder what was the reason for that? They dyed these Jerseys maroon. Probably a red dye gone wrong.
See my earlier post re Hearts hijacking St Andrews FC

I suppose maroon was a fair compromise a mixture of all their colours

The first Hearts strip was white with a Heart

[gbhibby]

See my earlier post re Hearts hijacking St Andrews FC

I suppose maroon was a fair compromise a mixture of all their colours

The first Hearts strip was white with a Heart
Yes we played in all white as well, I suppose we had to change to avoid the clash of colours. Interesting that Celtic didn't start wearing hoops until 1904.

[BILLYHIBS]

Yes we played in all white as well, I suppose we had to change to avoid the clash of colours. Interesting that Celtic didn't start wearing hoops until 1904.
Our strips were Hoops but Canon Hannon gave us a gift of white strips with a harp and green trim on our inauguration 1/8/1875 that we wore for the first season

[Kato]

Hearts played in Red White and Blue hoops around the time that we played in Green and White hoops,I wonder what was the reason for that? They dyed these Jerseys maroon. Probably a red dye gone wrong.Isn't there a story that Hearts hooped shirts ran in the wash, producing the mucky maroon colour we all know and loathe today?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Ringothedog]

Our strips were Hoops but Canon Hannon gave us a gift of white strips with a harp and green trim on our inauguration 1/8/1875 that we wore for the first season

Our very first strip was White and white shorts with green trim. From 1876- 1879 we went to green and white hoops and from 1879 we went to the more familiar all green top.

[BILLYHIBS]

Our very first strip was White and white shorts with green trim. From 1876- 1879 we went to green and white hoops and from 1879 we went to the more familiar all green top.
Correct

[gbhibby]

Isn't there a story that Hearts hooped shirts ran in the wash, producing the mucky maroon colour we all know and loathe today?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk
Cannae even dae
the washing correctly😁

[Kato]

Cannae even dae
the washing correctly[emoji16]They were involved with a Russian laundry at one time.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Mick O'Rourke]

They were involved with a Russian laundry at one time.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

The Mad Vlad certainly hung them out to drip-dry.

Their battle cry was "Maroon till i dye"

Or "These colours do run on a maroon shirt"

[Ringothedog]

Correct

They on the other hand play in the colours of blooded turd

[Bostonhibby]

Isn't there a story that Hearts hooped shirts ran in the wash, producing the mucky maroon colour we all know and loathe today?

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkIs maroon really a colour? I'm not convinced.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Carheenlea]

It does look it could be quite an interesting (and civil!) evening. Two very passionate club historians who will be well worth listening to.

I’d like to say I’m quite well versed in our own history, but admittedly have very little knowledge of the foundations and early history of Hearts.

[One Day]

Talking Clerry
Me and my brothers would sometimes get grief coming home from school on the bus..
Bottom of Clermiston Drive,Queensferry Road end,sometimes an ambush,tae !
Two of the clowns went to a fee paying school,too.
We weren't singled out cos we supported Hibs,but that we were "papist bees"
The ones that liked fitba were hertz fans.
So it has never surprised me when i see the union flag at tynie and hear the hello hello song.
Or believe the myth that they didnt want Mercer to suceed .

Happened to me, more than once, walking home from school, just because the badge on my blazer identified a Catholic school. This wasnt always kids but grown adults as well.

[basehibby]

HMFC refused to recognise us voted against us and refused to let us join their wee League that is all anyone needs to know


GGTTH
That's not strictly true - Hearts were the opposition for Hibs' first ever match on Xmas day 1875 - and broke an SFA embargo to do so!

Certainly true that at other times they worked to undermine Hibs but equally NOT true of the entire history of the two clubs.

[BILLYHIBS]

That's not strictly true - Hearts were the opposition for Hibs' first ever match on Xmas day 1875 - and broke an SFA embargo to do so!

Certainly true that at other times they worked to undermine Hibs but equally NOT true of the entire history of the two clubs.
Agree

It was the Edinburgh FA -who had passed the buck to the SFA who said their League was for Scotsmen not Irishmen - the Edinburgh FA upheld that and told their member clubs not to play the Irishmen

Hearts played for twenty minutes on Christmas Day with three men short but still won 1-0

Hibs followed up by playing friendlies against Thistle ( twice) and Hanover

A second game was arranged against Hearts on 6-5-1876 but Hearts must have had second thoughts as they failed to turn up

This was round about the time Hearts went out of business

The second incarnation were not so friendly

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Our very first strip was White and white shorts with green trim. From 1876- 1879 we went to green and white hoops and from 1879 we went to the more familiar all green top.

Could we perhaps go with an all white kit with a harp crest for the 2025/26 season or at least maybe the opening league game?

[gbhibby]

Could we perhaps go with an all white kit with a harp crest for the 2025/26 season or at least maybe the opening league game?
Would love a large Harp sculpture on top of the FF stand for the 150th.

[baker1959]

Did anyone go to this meeting and care to report back ?

[Sauerkraut]

I attended in a 'mixed' group. Wonderful setting internally, if you ever get the chance to stick your neck into the building. There was genuine warmth between Tom and his Hertz museum buddy but the talk lacked a wee bit structure. Plenty promising material and some good historical research and fact-checking. I felt they missed an issue when asked from the audience about 'entrance' fees to the early games. Sure I read somewhere (Lugton?) that the hat was passed round, no doubt by the bulkier of the clubs support staff. Hence a big element in Hertz wanting Hibs to stick around was that it was lucrative. A good night, needs a bit polish before it should be repeated.