Are Scottish teams at their lowest ebb in Europe?

[He's here!]

While I'm delighted to see the Old Firm and the yams getting skelped every week, if we add in Dundee Utd's humiliation and Motherwell's feeble exit have we ever seen a more dismal European season for Scottish clubs?

The gulf between our clubs and even moderately big European clubs seems to have reached chasm proportions. Hard to believe Rangers got to a Euro final last season but I guess that just underlines the arguably even bigger chasm between the Champions League and the other Euro tournaments.

[Hibees1973]

It's gone on for decades, aside the odd chink of light here and there.

Must be said that we have contributed a few embarrassing performances as well.

It's just a lack of money, very few talented younger players and a dearth in Scottish coaches at every level. Gap is getting wider even between us and countries of a similar size. For example, Norway & Croatia.

Can't see it getting any better.

[gbhibby]

I have said that the champions league only exists to make the rich richer. It needs to be revamped to allow smaller nations and smaller leagues to get a bigger share of the pie. The group stages should be an open draw with only the champions of each country getting a position. Rangers and Celtic will earn a substantial amount of money from this years competition so they will be able to shop at a different level. They would need to be qualifying for the next three years to make the same money as an English side makes in one year from the EPL.

[BS44]

No. Tomorrow will be the icing on the turd.

[HoboHarry]

And yet we Hibs fans clamor for third place and entry to Europe knowing full well how its likely to end.

[Hibbyradge]

It depends on how you look at it?

When was the last time we had 2 teams in the CL groups?

There's definitely been progress.

[JimBHibees]

Our coefficient is higher now than ever

[Lago]

Our coefficient is higher now than ever
Coefficient maybe higher, but Scottish football confidence has taken one hell of a battering so far and is certainly lower.

[He's here!]

It depends on how you look at it?

When was the last time we had 2 teams in the CL groups?

There's definitely been progress.

That's arguable when you tally up the goals against Celtic and Rangers in the CL so far...

[He's here!]

And yet we Hibs fans clamor for third place and entry to Europe knowing full well how its likely to end.

I'd imagine the yams are privately looking forward to their ordeal being over while Motherwell and United fans will likely wish they hadn't qualified. Rangers fans in particular will be wishing there was just one Champions League spot this season.

Perhaps organising more glamorous pre-season tours/friendlies is the way to go rather than hoping to get into European competition. That way you get the fun of the travel etc without the pain and embarrassment!

[Hibbyradge]

That's arguable when you tally up the goals against Celtic and Rangers in the CL so far...

Yes, but they wouldn't have lost those goals in previous years because they never got to the group stage. Is that really better?

Getting there is the progress, imo.

[Carheenlea]

It’s only a few months since Rangers were in the UEFA Cup Final. It’s a bit of a fall from grace from that right enough, but Scottish teams failing miserably in Europe is not a recent phenomenon.

[LunasBoots]

No. Tomorrow will be the icing on the turd.

Tends to end in getting put out quickly then having a poor season ahead I've found

[matty_f]

It's certainly at its most hilarious.

[B.H.F.C]

I'd imagine the yams are privately looking forward to their ordeal being over while Motherwell and United fans will likely wish they hadn't qualified. Rangers fans in particular will be wishing there was just one Champions League spot this season.

Perhaps organising more glamorous pre-season tours/friendlies is the way to go rather than hoping to get into European competition. That way you get the fun of the travel etc without the pain and embarrassment!

I doubt the Hearts fans over in Florence feel like it’s some kind of ordeal. Chuck in the money earned from just being in the competition.

I sincerely hope we manage to get to that stage in a years time.

[hibby rae]

I'd imagine the yams are privately looking forward to their ordeal being over while Motherwell and United fans will likely wish they hadn't qualified. Rangers fans in particular will be wishing there was just one Champions League spot this season.

Perhaps organising more glamorous pre-season tours/friendlies is the way to go rather than hoping to get into European competition. That way you get the fun of the travel etc without the pain and embarrassment!

To my mind our last 3 appearances in Europe ended by,

- Going out to Brondy on pens when we were still a Championship club

- Going out to a team who had Erling Haaland up front (after drawing 0-0 in the first leg)

- Going out after we had a man sent off, up until then though we were the better team in the tie so just one of those things

So overall we've given a decent showing in Europe really. I'd much prefer that over tours and friendlies

[GreenGray]

It’s only a few months since Rangers were in the UEFA Cup Final. It’s a bit of a fall from grace from that right enough, but Scottish teams failing miserably in Europe is not a recent phenomenon.

Exactly, look at results of clubs from countries similar size in recent years, it takes years of consistently qualifying for the groups before you begin to compete with teams at that level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[davhibby]

And yet we Hibs fans clamor for third place and entry to Europe knowing full well how its likely to end.

If we stop being interested in making europe we’d be as well just ditching playing in the league and playing 10 odd cup ties a season. Since we know full well how the league is going to end as well.

[basehibby]

While I'm delighted to see the Old Firm and the yams getting skelped every week, if we add in Dundee Utd's humiliation and Motherwell's feeble exit have we ever seen a more dismal European season for Scottish clubs?

The gulf between our clubs and even moderately big European clubs seems to have reached chasm proportions. Hard to believe Rangers got to a Euro final last season but I guess that just underlines the arguably even bigger chasm between the Champions League and the other Euro tournaments.

I think this season with Rangers & Celtic both making it into the CL groups the chasm has been more exposed. Despite being our biggest clubs they are relative paupers on that stage. This is a lot to do with media deals - as a small nation we're at a disadvantage already and our Football Authorities have a history of compounding that by somehow conspiring to get the pishest TV deals going - even by comparison to other small nations.

As I understand it there are moves afoot to ramp up that income with - appropriately given his media background - Oor Ron taking a leading role.

As far as clubs like Hibs are concerned, performing in Europe largely depends on being able to build on a successful season - holding onto the players that got you there and preferably adding to them is important. On the occasions we've done that we've competed reasonably well - often unfortunate not to progress further.

When we've lucked out to get to Europe (eg Fenlon's losing cup finalists) or have sold the family silver without reinvesting on the pitch, it's resulted in some abject results over the years. Most of this year's non-OF sides in Europe did luck out somewhat to get there, with much richer Hibs and Aberdeen both having pish seasons. The Jambos don't have that excuse but, while their performances in Europe have been gratifyingly pish, our own current Hibs team would struggle to get a result vs Fiorentina and that Turkish side I'd previously never heard of. Unless all our strikers started scoring of course! But that's another conversation...

[Since452]

Europa League is the top level for Rangers and Celtic. Conference League is too much of a struggle for the rest.

[JimBHibees]

Coefficient maybe higher, but Scottish football confidence has taken one hell of a battering so far and is certainly lower.

Not sure about Scottish footballs confidence taking a knock but if it does that to the OF and Hearts win win :greengrin

[Winston Ingram]

I have said that the champions league only exists to make the rich richer. It needs to be revamped to allow smaller nations and smaller leagues to get a bigger share of the pie. The group stages should be an open draw with only the champions of each country getting a position. Rangers and Celtic will earn a substantial amount of money from this years competition so they will be able to shop at a different level. They would need to be qualifying for the next three years to make the same money as an English side makes in one year from the EPL.

It exists to demonstrate who is the best team in Europe. It’s an elite competition. Scottish, Scandic, Balkan, Swiss, Hungarian, Latvian clubs etc will never be able to hold down a long term position at Europe’s elite table.

It will never be revamped to give smaller countries teams a bigger piece of the pie as even if it did it would still make very little difference as it will be a drop in the ocean to the cash the PL, La Liga, Bungesliga, Serie A and Ligue 1 get domestically.

The only people who expect Rangers and Celtic to be there regularly are the Weegia, Rangers and Celtic fans and that’s purely down to them being completely deluded.

[Winston Ingram]

And yet we Hibs fans clamor for third place and entry to Europe knowing full well how its likely to end.

It will likely end that way but the experience it gives fans and players is still well worth it.

[Stubbsy90+2]

Rangers and Celtic have woefully underperformed. They’re better sides than they’ve shown, especially Rangers, you just need to look at their EL run last season to see that they’re not this bad. They very nearly defeated Frankfurt in the final and they’re currently in with a shout of qualifying from their group. They beat Leipzig who are likely to qualify out theirs, they beat Dortmund who have pretty much already qualified out of theirs.

Rangers and Celtic have embarrassed themselves by performing way below the level they can perform at. I don’t think it’s necessarily reflective of the level they’re at, I think they’ve both just put in terrible performances well below their maximum. At their best they’re probably not quite good enough to get out the groups, but they should be competing. Club Bruuge probably aren’t any richer or better than them and they’re sitting on 10 points after 4 games with a +7 goal difference.

We’ll no doubt get told it’s everyone else in Scotlands fault for not providing sufficient competition but the reality is they’ve played well below their capabilities.

[Diclonius]

If Celtic can salvage 3rd they'll have a decent shot at progressing in the EL.

We did well last year and the prize money from the ECL especially will help us/Hearts/Aberdeen.

[danhibees1875]

Yes, but they wouldn't have lost those goals in previous years because they never got to the group stage. Is that really better?

Getting there is the progress, imo.

:agree:

2 teams in the CL group stages is good going, we've not been in as good a position as that for many years.

[Leitherhibs]

You think that's feeble? Wait till you see this lost tonight..

[Keepthefaith]

Interesting to look at club Bruges apparently been horsed in European competition for last 10 years never progressing from CL GROUP but have just made it through to knock out stages.

I think this reflects how Scottish teams need to view progress, over 5-10 years of incremental improvements to hopefully reach a more tangible outcome!

[500miles]

Yes, but they wouldn't have lost those goals in previous years because they never got to the group stage. Is that really better?

Getting there is the progress, imo.

The fact that Rangers team made it to the final last year and skooshed the qualifications this year tells you a lot. There's a massive disparity within the group stages and between European competitons.

[hibsbollah]

Rangers and Celtic have woefully underperformed. They’re better sides than they’ve shown, especially Rangers, you just need to look at their EL run last season to see that they’re not this bad. They very nearly defeated Frankfurt in the final and they’re currently in with a shout of qualifying from their group. They beat Leipzig who are likely to qualify out theirs, they beat Dortmund who have pretty much already qualified out of theirs.

Rangers and Celtic have embarrassed themselves by performing way below the level they can perform at. I don’t think it’s necessarily reflective of the level they’re at, I think they’ve both just put in terrible performances well below their maximum. At their best they’re probably not quite good enough to get out the groups, but they should be competing. Club Bruuge probably aren’t any richer or better than them and they’re sitting on 10 points after 4 games with a +7 goal difference.

We’ll no doubt get told it’s everyone else in Scotlands fault for not providing sufficient competition but the reality is they’ve played well below their capabilities.

I think they had a bit of crazy one off run last year, for which they deserve credit, but a run like that is the ‘outlier’, not this seasons calamity. They are third tier in European terms, without the resources to go much further than a deep run in the conference league or a mediocre Europa group stage finish.

[GreenCastle]

The fact that Rangers team made it to the final last year and skooshed the qualifications this year tells you a lot. There's a massive disparity within the group stages and between European competitons.

Hibs also beat that Huns team that made the final last year 3-1 at Hampden!

Huns got lucky with many of the knockout game 2nd legs at Ibrox - made a massive difference. In the end they weren’t far off winning the tournament but they have realised they are miles off the top sides this season.

Bringing on an 18 year old centre back last night showed - watch every goal and he’s no where to be seen.

I’m delighted they were pumped last night and hopefully Fiorentina do the same to Hearts tonight. But I can imagine Hearts players watched the Huns game and wont wont a repeat.

[Since452]

Rangers were beside themselves with joy qualifying for the CL. Utterly embarrassed. Hearts were the same with their group stage football. Utterly embarrassed and potentially worse to come for both. Makes you wonder what the point is. Money great but watching your team getting ragdolled? Nah.

[vercol36]

I’m sure Hearts are about to embarrass all of Scottish football tonight and we will all question whether or not it’s worth spending the whole season hoping to get a European berth, but…

…if you asked me would I prefer to be sitting freezing my bollocks off right now or sipping Negronis in the shadow of the Duomo, I’d have only one answer for you.

I think my point is that, yes, we’re a pretty bad nation for club football in Europe, but it’s still fun to have a go. And definitely fun to go watch your team play abroad

[Fergus52]

It's gone on for decades, aside the odd chink of light here and there.

Must be said that we have contributed a few embarrassing performances as well.

It's just a lack of money, very few talented younger players and a dearth in Scottish coaches at every level. Gap is getting wider even between us and countries of a similar size. For example, Norway & Croatia.

Can't see it getting any better.

This is nonsense, the current Celtic and Rangers sides are better than anything in the Norwegian league.

Scotland is ranked 8th best league in Europe right now, Norway is 12th and Croatia is 19th?

Celtic have been extremely unlucky in their group. Made a similar amount of chances to Leipzig in both games, just weren't clinical enough. And created more than enough to win by 3 or 4 away to Shahktar.

[B.H.F.C]

Rangers were beside themselves with joy qualifying for the CL. Utterly embarrassed. Hearts were the same with their group stage football. Utterly embarrassed and potentially worse to come for both. Makes you wonder what the point is. Money great but watching your team getting ragdolled? Nah.

Will never understand this attitude towards it. You can’t improve unless you start getting there consistently. The money gives you a better chance of making the improvements.

Need to start somewhere. I hope it’s us involved next year.

[JeMeSouviens]

I certainly hope not, we haven't had tonight's game yet. :wink:

Forza Viola!

[HFC93]

I'd love to see the combined aggregate scores for all the Scottish teams in the Europe this season. Would be something scary.

[MelbourneHibees]

Rangers were literally in the final of 1 of the major European finals last season and we have 3 teams involved group stage football this season and next. Hearts will be out for good soon but Rangers and Celtic still have a decent chance of progressing through some more rounds of the Europa League. Strange thread.

[MWHIBBIES]

Rangers were literally in the final of 1 of the major European finals last season and we have 3 teams involved group stage football this season and next. Hearts will be out for good soon but Rangers and Celtic still have a decent chance of progressing through some more rounds of the Europa League. Strange thread.

Very unlikely either of them get Europa League

[MelbourneHibees]

Ignore.

[MelbourneHibees]

Very unlikely either of them get Europa League

I've not looked into it admittedly much but I assume they just need to beat a 3rd place team from EL group stages?

[Ringothedog]

I've not looked into it admittedly much but I assume they just need to beat a 3rd place team from EL group stages?

They are both odds on to finish last in their group. That will put them out of European football this season. No back door sneaking into another competition for them.

[BoomtownHibees]

I've not looked into it admittedly much but I assume they just need to beat a 3rd place team from EL group stages?

They will both finish bottom of their groups. They need to finish 3rd to then drop in to the EL

[JimBHibees]

They will both finish bottom of their groups. They need to finish 3rd to them drop in to the EL

Rangers need something from Napoli which seems very unlikely given their head to head v Ajax 0-4.

[The dalmeny]

I'd imagine the yams are privately looking forward to their ordeal being over while Motherwell and United fans will likely wish they hadn't qualified. !

Where are you getting this from?

[Since452]

Fiorentina are a pretty mediocre Italian side. Just lost 4-0 at home to Lazio on Monday. Will still beat Hearts without coming out of first gear.

[HoboHarry]

Rangers need something from Napoli which seems very unlikely given their head to head v Ajax 0-4.
My only worry is that Napoli have already qualified so may play a few squad players.

[SJNB Hibby]

I'd love to see the combined aggregate scores for all the Scottish teams in the Europe this season. Would be something scary.
I believe its: W4 D2 L14 12-41

[Keith_M]

Just felt like posting this...


26236

[nonshinyfinish]

My only worry is that Napoli have already qualified so may play a few squad players.

Beating Sevco would keep them in pole position to win the group and therefore be seeded for the last 16, so I doubt they'd rotate significantly.

[Ringothedog]

I've not looked into it admittedly much but I assume they just need to beat a 3rd place team from EL group stages?

They are both odds on to finish last in their group. That will put them out of European football this season. No back door sneaking into another competition for them.

[Onion]

While I'm delighted to see the Old Firm and the yams getting skelped every week, if we add in Dundee Utd's humiliation and Motherwell's feeble exit have we ever seen a more dismal European season for Scottish clubs?

The gulf between our clubs and even moderately big European clubs seems to have reached chasm proportions. Hard to believe Rangers got to a Euro final last season but I guess that just underlines the arguably even bigger chasm between the Champions League and the other Euro tournaments.

Been plenty of much worse European seasons. Celtic & The Rangers both qualified for the CL groups stage - and are raking in £millions in the process. Hearts in the Conf League groups raking in £millions. All three are having the chance to play top European sides in glamour matches.

DUFC and Motherwell are a different case. They were just the 2 unfortunates from a bunch of rubbish teams who found themselves stumbling into the Euro places when the music stopped. Neither were in the least bit prepared or good enough to play in Europe - but that's usually the case for the also rans.

[Dundee Hibee]

It now seems that United's 1-0 win over Alkmaar is the best result by a Scottish side this season in Europe seeing as they are undefeated and sitting top of the Dutch league.

[Since452]

It now seems that United's 1-0 win over Alkmaar is the best result by a Scottish side this season in Europe seeing as they are undefeated and sitting top of the Dutch league.

It was a fantastic result. Just shows top sides like AZ and Hibs can slip up there :wink:

[chippy]

It exists to demonstrate who is the best team in Europe. It’s an elite competition. Scottish, Scandic, Balkan, Swiss, Hungarian, Latvian clubs etc will never be able to hold down a long term position at Europe’s elite table.

It will never be revamped to give smaller countries teams a bigger piece of the pie as even if it did it would still make very little difference as it will be a drop in the ocean to the cash the PL, La Liga, Bungesliga, Serie A and Ligue 1 get domestically.

The only people who expect Rangers and Celtic to be there regularly are the Weegia, Rangers and Celtic fans and that’s purely down to them being completely deluded.

Good points. Maybe we should be re examining the Atlantic League proposal of 2 years ago involving us and Scandic nations

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm loving every minute of it. Hopefully more to come tonight. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd imagine the yams are privately looking forward to their ordeal being over while Motherwell and United fans will likely wish they hadn't qualified. Rangers fans in particular will be wishing there was just one Champions League spot this season.

Perhaps organising more glamorous pre-season tours/friendlies is the way to go rather than hoping to get into European competition. That way you get the fun of the travel etc without the pain and embarrassment!

Florence, Istanbul and Riga is some ordeal.:)

[Hibs90]

Nah this has been ****ing hilarious, get it up the lot of them.

[hibstag]

Not sure about lowest ebb keekback has a thread about how big their attendances are
In the conference league compared to other teams. So all is okay in their wee wee world where comfort blankets are a must

[heretoday]

It's a dark week for Scottish football. Looks like Hearts are going to ship more goals even than the huns tonight.

[flash]

It's a dark week for Scottish football. Looks like Hearts are going to ship more goals even than the huns tonight.

Not in my house. Party central here.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Not in my house. Party central here.

It's been a belting week :agree:

[erin go bragh]

Wonder if all thease defeats will mean 3rd this season will no longer be guaranteed group stage football next season.

[Sir David Gray]

Wonder if all thease defeats will mean 3rd this season will no longer be guaranteed group stage football next season.

3rd place wasn't guaranteed group stage football this season, the only reason Hearts got it was because Rangers won the Scottish Cup and had already qualified for the Champions League therefore their Europa League spot was passed down to Hearts for finishing 3rd.

The Scottish Cup winners this year will once again enter the Europa League play offs which means they are guaranteed group stage football. If the cup winners have already qualified for the Champions League then 3rd will benefit once again and get group stage football in either the Europa League or the Europa Conference League.

[Libby Hibby]

What an absolute hoot of a week for Scottish Football.

I’ve never laughed so much since the last time the 3 of them played in Europe.

Long may it continue.

[He's here!]

It's gone on for decades, aside the odd chink of light here and there.

Must be said that we have contributed a few embarrassing performances as well.

It's just a lack of money, very few talented younger players and a dearth in Scottish coaches at every level. Gap is getting wider even between us and countries of a similar size. For example, Norway & Croatia.

Can't see it getting any better.

It's this century that I'd say the regular humiliations have taken hold. Even under McLeish and Miller Hibs held their own against some pedigree names while of course throughout the 60s and most of the 70s we were European regulars and were only narrowly losing to the likes of Liverpool as well as actually beating some giants of the European game. In the 80s Aberdeen and Dundee Utd were extraordinary in Europe.

As you say the financial/talent gap just seems to have widened to a staggering and depressing extent.

[hibsbollah]

3rd place wasn't guaranteed group stage football this season, the only reason Hearts got it was because Rangers won the Scottish Cup and had already qualified for the Champions League therefore their Europa League spot was passed down to Hearts for finishing 3rd.

The Scottish Cup winners this year will once again enter the Europa League play offs which means they are guaranteed group stage football. If the cup winners have already qualified for the Champions League then 3rd will benefit once again and get group stage football in either the Europa League or the Europa Conference League.

Which means knowing our luck we’ll probably finish 3rd, but Celtic will end up having a cup final disaster to at Mirren or Ross County and handing the euro group stage place to them.

[Sir David Gray]

Which means knowing our luck we’ll probably finish 3rd, but Celtic will end up having a cup final disaster to at Mirren or Ross County and handing the euro group stage place to them.

Yep guaranteed.

[Numptie]

To be fair to Hearts, they were Sh**e last year and have continued that form. We don't have a team at the moment that is consistently the 3rd best, as we can't challenge the top 2 financially. We need a 3rd best team that is playing well in our league and carries that confidence into Europe, and although I would hope that 3rd team could be Hibs, the quality in our league means that Livingston are as likely to finish 3rd, as us.

[where'stheslope]

On Scottish teams performances, our weakest team in the group stages are the only ones to have actually won a game so far????
It only goes to show, not only how bad Scottish football is, but how far behind we have fallen!!!!

[Since452]

This week couldn't have been any better. Outstanding entertainment.

[Keith_M]

Hearts have just made a public announcement that they are officially dead as a club.


RIP, Los Yambolinos.

:brokenyam:

[JeMeSouviens]

Wonder if all thease defeats will mean 3rd this season will no longer be guaranteed group stage football next season.

The country ranking for next season's competitions is fixed (based on 2018-2022 rankings). We went up from 11th to 9th so shouldn't be any worse next season. These results won't feed in until the season after next and provisionally we've actually gone up to 8th in that ranking but we'll almost certainly lose some places since all our teams are about to go out.

[Brummie_Hibs]

So far in Europe....

Goals For and Against

Scottish Clubs 14
Opponents 54

[Hibernia&Alba]

So far in Europe....

Goals For and Against

Scottish Clubs 14
Opponents 54

With all due respect to Dundee United, who I have nothing against, GOOD :greengrin

[Stubbsy90+2]

I think they had a bit of crazy one off run last year, for which they deserve credit, but a run like that is the ‘outlier’, not this seasons calamity. They are third tier in European terms, without the resources to go much further than a deep run in the conference league or a mediocre Europa group stage finish.

They probably did but I wouldn’t have put it past the current rangers or Celtic getting to the last 8 or so again in the EL. They’re definitely not third tier imo.

If I was Rangers or Celtic I’d be expecting to beat Club Bruuge for example who have skooshed their group. Rangers and Celtic should be performing way better and haven’t done themselves justice imo.

[jacomo]

And yet we Hibs fans clamor for third place and entry to Europe knowing full well how its likely to end.


If you lose all hope as a Hibs fan, what have you got left?

[Brummie_Hibs]

If you lose all hope as a Hibs fan, what have you got left?
An addiction and misplaced loyalty you can't shake off?

[Steven1985]

Personally, I couldn't care less about Fart of Whatever. I don't live in Edinburgh and no one I know has ever heard of them. As a kid, I would have supported Rangers or Celtic in Europe because of them being Scottish clubs. These days I quite like to see them get a taste of their own medicine. Get back in your bubble and be happy shooting fish in a barrel and stop embarrassing Scottish football you worthless twits. I like Hibs BTW.

Edit...I did know one bloke who had heard of them..."Who plays in purple?"