We need to talk about England

[theonlywayisup]

I've not really been paying much attention to how our southern neighbours are getting on, but I notice that they've now been relegated from the Nations League to the second tier.

Gareth Southgate says England's performance in their defeat by Italy was "a step in the right direction" despite the Three Lions being relegated to the Nations League's second tier. England are without victory in five games for the first time since June 2014 following the 1-0 loss in Milan. They have also failed to score a goal from open play in 495 minutes. "It's difficult for me to be too critical of the performance," said England manager Southgate.

In England's defence, they are playing some of Europe's elite teams and I'm not sure we would fare any better. But for a nation with so many good players, they should be doing a lot better than current performance.

So has Southgate's honeymoon period and earlier successes come to an end and now we're seeing a rocky divorce on the horizon. Or have we written them off too soon and they peak at the World Cup?

[Sir David Gray]

I've not really been paying much attention to how our southern neighbours are getting on, but I notice that they've now been relegated from the Nations League to the second tier.

Gareth Southgate says England's performance in their defeat by Italy was "a step in the right direction" despite the Three Lions being relegated to the Nations League's second tier. England are without victory in five games for the first time since June 2014 following the 1-0 loss in Milan. They have also failed to score a goal from open play in 495 minutes. "It's difficult for me to be too critical of the performance," said England manager Southgate.

In England's defence, they are playing some of Europe's elite teams and I'm not sure we would fare any better. But for a nation with so many good players, they should be doing a lot better than current performance.

So has Southgate's honeymoon period and earlier successes come to an end and now we're seeing a rocky divorce on the horizon. Or have we written them off too soon and they peak at the World Cup?

It's the same elite teams they'll be facing in a couple of months' time and that they'll need to be beating if football is to "come home".

Form can quickly turn round of course but they are on a horrendous run at the moment and the no goals from open play stat is dreadful.

They are not doing well at all and as much as I can't see them going out in the group stages it would be hilarious if Iran, USA and Wales were all to beat them.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

They appear to be bereft of any confidence as a unit for some reason.

[Since452]

Certs to win the world cup according to some though

[Renfrew_Hibby]

He'll step down after the world Cup, question is who will come in?

They have an abundance of talent at all the age groups, truly world class talent but for me they just never seem to play and gel as a team.

Having said that I was shocked to see they went with Walker, Dier and Maguire at the back. That's the one area of the pitch they seem to be struggling with going forward.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Fans might turn on him if they get a doing from the Germans.

[Big_Franck]

Their performances over the last few months have been horrific. Their 4-0 defeat at home to Hungary was I think the worst performance I've ever seen from an England side.

They have a very average keeper, whichever one they play, and with Harry Maguire at the back the opposition will always have a very good chance to win the game. Declan Rice isn't good enough to play at the very top level in central midfield and for whatever reason their collection of very talented attacking midfielders and forwards just aren't performing in an england jersey. Long may it continue :greengrin

[He's here!]

I've not really been paying much attention to how our southern neighbours are getting on, but I notice that they've now been relegated from the Nations League to the second tier.

Gareth Southgate says England's performance in their defeat by Italy was "a step in the right direction" despite the Three Lions being relegated to the Nations League's second tier. England are without victory in five games for the first time since June 2014 following the 1-0 loss in Milan. They have also failed to score a goal from open play in 495 minutes. "It's difficult for me to be too critical of the performance," said England manager Southgate.

In England's defence, they are playing some of Europe's elite teams and I'm not sure we would fare any better. But for a nation with so many good players, they should be doing a lot better than current performance.

So has Southgate's honeymoon period and earlier successes come to an end and now we're seeing a rocky divorce on the horizon. Or have we written them off too soon and they peak at the World Cup?

Honeymoon period? He's been in job six years!

First major final since 1966 plus a World Cup semi-final...if a Scotland manager achieved what Southgate has he'd be in a job for life.

England also have a terrific pool of players which it shouldn't be too hard to turn around.

[MWHIBBIES]

I think Southgate might've found his limit. Hes struggling to bring some of the real brilliant young guys like Sancho, Foden, Saka and Trent in and get the best from them.

He really has done a magnificent job, no doubting that, but hes really struggling now.

[MWHIBBIES]

He'll step down after the world Cup, question is who will come in?

They have an abundance of talent at all the age groups, truly world class talent but for me they just never seem to play and gel as a team.

Having said that I was shocked to see they went with Walker, Dier and Maguire at the back. That's the one area of the pitch they seem to be struggling with going forward.

Walker is absolutely world class on the right of a back 3. Dier has been Spurs best defender this season. Those 2 earned their place.

Maguire is pretty poor. Was absolutely excellent at the Euros and World cup, but totally void of confidence. Not talking Ben White who has been one of the best defenders in the premier league this season was baffling.

[WeeRussell]

Walker is absolutely world class on the right of a back 3. Dier has been Spurs best defender this season. Those 2 earned their place.

Maguire is pretty poor. Was absolutely excellent at the Euros and World cup, but totally void of confidence. Not talking Ben White who has been one of the best defenders in the premier league this season was baffling.

The absolutely world class right of back 3 was subbed immediately after totally selling himself for the only goal of the game. Maguire as poor as ever, but to be honest the whole England team were outplayed by an Italian side missing a few of their top players, and it could easily have been a few more goals.

I agree that Southgate will be gone not long after the World Cup.

[B.H.F.C]

Honeymoon period? He's been in job six years!

First major final since 1966 plus a World Cup semi-final...if a Scotland manager achieved what Southgate has he'd be in a job for life.

England also have a terrific pool of players which it shouldn't be too hard to turn around.

Wouldn’t be hard to turn round for a top manager which he isn’t.

A poor World Cup will see him away as the public have started to turn.

[WeeRussell]

if a Scotland manager achieved what Southgate has he'd be in a job for life.

And you’d be straight on hibs.net to remind everyone they haven’t actually won anything and been a bit lucky with their runs, while not being bothered about football.

[marinello59]

Certs to win the world cup according to some though

Who?

[marinello59]

I think Southgate might've found his limit. Hes struggling to bring some of the real brilliant young guys like Sancho, Foden, Saka and Trent in and get the best from them.

He really has done a magnificent job, no doubting that, but hes really struggling now.

There have been a few notable exceptions but most managers have a sell by date past which it’s best to move on. Southgate’s mistake has been not recognising he reached that point a while ago.

[MWHIBBIES]

There have been a few notable exceptions but most managers have a sell by date past which it’s best to move on. Southgate’s mistake has been not recognising he reached that point a while ago.
Its a not a while ago, though. He was in a major final last summer, and should really have won it. They had a brilliant tournament. No reason for him not to try again really.


The absolutely world class right of back 3 was subbed immediately after totally selling himself for the only goal of the game. Maguire as poor as ever, but to be honest the whole England team were outplayed by an Italian side missing a few of their top players, and it could easily have been a few more goals.

I agree that Southgate will be gone not long after the World Cup.

Yes, even the best make mistakes. Walker is brilliant for Man City at right back/right centre back. Chiellini in the papers in midweek saying that as well.

[Keith_M]

Sorry but why do we 'need to talk about England'?

[He's here!]

And you’d be straight on hibs.net to remind everyone they haven’t actually won anything and been a bit lucky with their runs, while not being bothered about football.

:-D

I think I'd be more generous than that but we'll never be in a position to find out...just qualifying for a major tournament via the group stages would be a big achievement for Scotland ;-)

I just don't get the 'he's not a good manager' view of Southgate. His achievements as England boss are top notch. I think their fans should be wary of what they wish for if they think someone else can come in and do better.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Walker is absolutely world class on the right of a back 3. Dier has been Spurs best defender this season. Those 2 earned their place.

Maguire is pretty poor. Was absolutely excellent at the Euros and World cup, but totally void of confidence. Not talking Ben White who has been one of the best defenders in the premier league this season was baffling.

Yeah I'm with you on Walker and Dier but what I mean is where are the up and comming future Rio Ferdinands, Sol Campbells or John Terrys?
Perhaps they're out there and it's maybe just that middle to front players get all the hype and attention.

[MWHIBBIES]

Yeah I'm with you on Walker and Dier but what I mean is where are the up and comming future Rio Ferdinands, Sol Campbells or John Terrys?
Perhaps they're out there and it's maybe just that middle to front players get all the hype and attention.

Tomori a key player in AC Milan winning the title
Ben White brilliant for Arsenal
Marc Guehi class at Palace

These are the guys he should be playing instead of Maguire.

[Vault Boy]

Long may it continue. Their run in the Euros was completely unbearable down here. Until the final that is, wonder what happened there.

I actually think a lot of their squad are reasonably likeable, but England supporters are an embarrassment. That’s why I’ll never wish them well.

[Saint Hibee]

The real mystery is how Italy failed to qualify for the World Cup (again).

[Hiber-nation]

Sorry but why do we 'need to talk about England'?

Why not? Everyone's talking about England. Makes far more sense than we need to talk about Lee.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Honeymoon period? He's been in job six years!

First major final since 1966 plus a World Cup semi-final...if a Scotland manager achieved what Southgate has he'd be in a job for life.

England also have a terrific pool of players which it shouldn't be too hard to turn around.
If a Scotland manager had one tenth of the talent available that the England manager does, we would all be happy.

[hibby rae]

I think Southgate might've found his limit. Hes struggling to bring some of the real brilliant young guys like Sancho, Foden, Saka and Trent in and get the best from them.

He really has done a magnificent job, no doubting that, but hes really struggling now.

I don't rate him as a coach, especially with the squad he has.

I think 2018 was very kind to them the way the draw worked out, even at the Euros they got a lot of luck in that respect.

[Dmas]

I don't rate him as a coach, especially with the squad he has.

I think 2018 was very kind to them the way the draw worked out, even at the Euros they got a lot of luck in that respect.

I’m in the same boat he basically played every game at home in the euros even the final, England have some incredible talent and he can’t seem to find a way to play them, last night for example was prime time to play Tammy abraham and Timori , they’ve both been hugely successful against those Italy players but he sticks with the same old regardless of club form.

Long may it continue as well every time they give the best league in the world thing we can always point to the detrimental effect it’s having on the national team be unbearable if they actually began winning things at international Level

[bod]

Long may they’re bad run continue

[erin go bragh]

Honeymoon period? He's been in job six years!

First major final since 1966 plus a World Cup semi-final...if a Scotland manager achieved what Southgate has he'd be in a job for life.

England also have a terrific pool of players which it shouldn't be too hard to turn around.
He’s a bang average manager and far too cautious imo. A top quality manager would have won them the Euros and every chance of winning the World Cup with what was the easiest draw all the way through .
Hope they give him a longer contract 😁

[Pretty Boy]

Southgate isn't that great a manager. His record is nothing special at any level.

It was hard to really back that up when they reached the final of the Euros and I got grief for saying it but I stand by it. With a better manager they would have a trophy in the cabinet.

He's been in the job years and still seems to be scrambling about and tinkering trying to find a style and identity.

[B.H.F.C]

He’s a bang average manager and far too cautious imo. A top quality manager would have won them the Euros and every chance of winning the World Cup with what was the easiest draw all the way through .
Hope they give him a longer contract 😁

Said on match thread last night that, IMO, it’s so similar to us with Jack Ross.

On paper, record looks really good. But ultimately, some huge opportunities were passed up and there’s always been and element of folk not being entirely convinced even when getting positive results.

His loyalty to folk like Maguire will finish him.

[ScottB]

He’s peaked, 6 years is a long time, he seems to be clinging to approaches and players that have ‘served him well’ like Maguire etc.

On paper England have a pretty excellent group of players to choose from and some cracking youth coming through, they shouldn’t be getting relegated in the Nations League and anything other than a deep run in Qatar is a failure.

Too late to replace him, but would suspect he goes post tournament. They’ve missed the boat on Potter though so not clear who would get it next, certainly if they want to pick someone English.

[Allant1981]

He'll step down after the world Cup, question is who will come in?

They have an abundance of talent at all the age groups, truly world class talent but for me they just never seem to play and gel as a team.

Having said that I was shocked to see they went with Walker, Dier and Maguire at the back. That's the one area of the pitch they seem to be struggling with going forward.

What players do you think they have that are truly world class? Kane, foden, not sure who else would make a squad of the worlds best players? Certainly not their keepers, don't think any of their defenders or midfielders would either, they get hyped up by the English media because they play in the english premier league

[MikeyS]

What players do you think they have that are truly world class? Kane, foden, not sure who else would make a squad of the worlds best players? Certainly not their keepers, don't think any of their defenders or midfielders would either, they get hyped up by the English media because they play in the english premier league

Nailed it! The constant stream of pish from the English written press and guff like Talksport would have you believe they are full of world class talent. I'd argue that if you were to think of the top 5 players in each position across the world, only Kane and possibly Alexander Arnold would feature. No danger are guys like Grealish, Forden, Rice true world class talents for me.

[MWHIBBIES]

Nailed it! The constant stream of pish from the English written press and guff like Talksport would have you believe they are full of world class talent. I'd argue that if you were to think of the top 5 players in each position across the world, only Kane and possibly Alexander Arnold would feature. No danger are guys like Grealish, Forden, Rice true world class talents for me.

Their squad is undoubtedly really good. James and walker have been far better than Trent this season. Saka, foden and Sancho are incredible talents, any country would want them.

There is no need to downplay their talent because their English. Top, top players.

[MikeyS]

Their squad is undoubtedly really good. James and walker have been far better than Trent this season. Saka, foden and Sancho are incredible talents, any country would want them.

There is no need to downplay their talent because their English. Top, top players.

At no point did I suggest they aren't full or talented players but in my opinion they aren't world class players.

I know you like to think of yourself as an authority on all subjects but surely you don't think Saka, Foden and Sancho are in the top 5 in their positions? Foden and Saka dinnae even nail down a regular position for either club or country!

Very good footballers just not the world class ones the English press would have us all believe.

[MWHIBBIES]

At no point did I suggest they aren't full or talented players but in my opinion they aren't world class players.

I know you like to think of yourself as an authority on all subjects but surely you don't think Saka, Foden and Sancho are in the top 5 in their positions? Foden and Saka dinnae even nail down a regular position for either club or country!

Very good footballers just not the world class ones the English press would have us all believe.

Difficult to argue if you think saka isn't a regular for Arsenal. He certainly is. Foden too.

Saka, Sancho and Foden are very young. They will all absolutely be among the top 5 in their positions in years to come.

You're acting like they've peaked and won't improve. They've got 10 years ahead.

England have a frightening young squad. Really impressive generation.

[RyeSloan]

Difficult to argue if you think saka isn't a regular for Arsenal. He certainly is. Foden too.

Saka, Sancho and Foden are very young. They will all absolutely be among the top 5 in their positions in years to come.

You're acting like they've peaked and won't improve. They've got 10 years ahead.

England have a frightening young squad. Really impressive generation.

Indeed. Quite hard to take arguments that players playing for the likes of Man City, Liverpool or the like are actually just over hyped Englishmen.

Their young talent is impressive and you can add Bellingham to that list as well. There is certainly plenty of talent coming through for them to be a top international team for quite some time.

As for Southgate…I quite like the Jack Ross analogy. Has achieved results without ever looking like a thoroughbred team and despite relative success really didn’t deliver when required.

Their Euros run was impressive but on the flip side they were handed the easiest side of a play off tournament draw you are ever likely to see.

Baffling that he played Saka as left wing back last night and their overall performance looked flat as a pancake to me.

But a bit like the Euros they have landed a favourable draw on the WC groups so could easily make the quarter final stage without having to be good good. Not sure it will be enough to save Southgate when they crash out when faced with their first real test but we shall see…

[He's here!]

At no point did I suggest they aren't full or talented players but in my opinion they aren't world class players.

I know you like to think of yourself as an authority on all subjects but surely you don't think Saka, Foden and Sancho are in the top 5 in their positions? Foden and Saka dinnae even nail down a regular position for either club or country!

Very good footballers just not the world class ones the English press would have us all believe.

If they're not as good as has been claimed then all the more credit to Southgate for what he's achieved with them.

[Allant1981]

If they're not as good as has been claimed then all the more credit to Southgate for what he's achieved with them.

Don't think anyone has said they aren't good players but there was a suggestion they have world class players, they have a couple and even then would you drop lewandowski, mbappe, benzema etc for kane? Would you drop vinicius Jr for foden, probably not, Walker might make a defence but again that would be at a push imo. They get over hyped constantly

[Jdawg]

Declan Rice must be the most overrated player in world football 😂😂

[bingo70]

Declan Rice must be the most overrated player in world football 😂😂

I used to think that.

Saw him play for West Ham against Chelsea last season though and he was outstanding. Since then I’ve watched him a bit closer and I think he’s a terrific player.

[B.H.F.C]

I used to think that.

Saw him play for West Ham against Chelsea last season though and he was outstanding. Since then I’ve watched him a bit closer and I think he’s a terrific player.

I agree. Needs to move from West Ham. I think he’d be one of the top players in his position playing in one of the big teams with better players to pass the ball to.

[He's here!]

Southgate isn't that great a manager. His record is nothing special at any level.

It was hard to really back that up when they reached the final of the Euros and I got grief for saying it but I stand by it. With a better manager they would have a trophy in the cabinet.

He's been in the job years and still seems to be scrambling about and tinkering trying to find a style and identity.

Nothing special? When did an England manager last lead their team to a semi-final and a final at successive major tournaments? More than half a century ago is the answer. Relative to England's overall tournament history it's an outstanding achievement. I think any other manager would have struggled to match that if put in charge of England. They've had plenty of bigger name managers down the years who haven't come close.

[B.H.F.C]

Nothing special? When did an England manager last lead their team to a semi-final and a final at successive major tournaments? More than half a century ago is the answer. Relative to England's overall tournament history it's an outstanding achievement. I think any other manager would have struggled to match that if put in charge of England. They've had plenty of bigger name managers down the years who haven't come close.

Not with the draw (particularly in the World Cup) they wouldn’t. It was slightly more difficult in the Euros but they had home advantage and his negativity, as soon as they came up against a decent team, blew it for them.

IMO he under achieved with the the opportunities presented to him and his team.

[Pretty Boy]

Nothing special? When did an England manager last lead their team to a semi-final and a final at successive major tournaments? More than half a century ago is the answer. Relative to England's overall tournament history it's an outstanding achievement. I think any other manager would have struggled to match that if put in charge of England. They've had plenty of bigger name managers down the years who haven't come close.

His record prior to getting the England gig wasn't the level of someone getting one of the biggest jobs in international football. He relegated Middlesbrough FFS.

In with the bricks at the FA, face fits kind of manager. With the squad they have and the youngsters coming through if England are bold with their next appointment they'll be serious contenders in 2024 & 2026. With Southgate in charge even when they are in the latter stages I've never truly believed they were going to win a tournament.

[Glory Lurker]

Is it possible that this is just another example of the big nations not really being that bothered about the Nations League? That’s a possible defence.

[ScottB]

Is it possible that this is just another example of the big nations not really being that bothered about the Nations League? That’s a possible defence.

Maybe some don’t, but I doubt England can ever have that luxury with their media.

[B.H.F.C]

Is it possible that this is just another example of the big nations not really being that bothered about the Nations League? That’s a possible defence.

Not for me. They’ve been abysmal whilst trying to get ready for a World Cup.

[jacomo]

His record prior to getting the England gig wasn't the level of someone getting one of the biggest jobs in international football. He relegated Middlesbrough FFS.

In with the bricks at the FA, face fits kind of manager. With the squad they have and the youngsters coming through if England are bold with their next appointment they'll be serious contenders in 2024 & 2026. With Southgate in charge even when they are in the latter stages I've never truly believed they were going to win a tournament.


His record prior to the England job is largely irrelevant.

Arguably a different skill set required to boss an international side, it’s churlish to suggest he’s done anything other than an excellent job in that role.

[Lago]

England will make a decent fist of it at the world cup, too many good players not to.

[Since90+2]

His record prior to getting the England gig wasn't the level of someone getting one of the biggest jobs in international football. He relegated Middlesbrough FFS.

In with the bricks at the FA, face fits kind of manager. With the squad they have and the youngsters coming through if England are bold with their next appointment they'll be serious contenders in 2024 & 2026. With Southgate in charge even when they are in the latter stages I've never truly believed they were going to win a tournament.

He's done better with England than any other manager, many of them having better records, in the last 2 decades.

[Keith_M]

I'd love Scotland to have the same potential pool of talent as England.

It's an incredible head start for any Manager, but also puts a lot of pressure on them as it means there's no excuses if they underperform.

[Keith_M]

Oh and one statistic in defence of Southgate.

Managed the first England team in 55 years to beat Germany in a 'knockout' game



.... though TBH, that sounds a bit more like a condemnation of previous teams/managers than anything else.

[The Modfather]

Think Southgate has done a good job creating a pathway from the U21s and integrating youth. He’s also got them to a final and a semi final, credit where it’s due. However with a a bit of context, the kind draws and home advantage, it’s maybe not as impressive as it sounds on paper, while still good achievements.

It seems he’s taken the team as far as he can and I think the parallels with Ross are fair. A good manager but he’s not got that little bit extra where he is the difference between them winning something or not. He will leave good foundations for the next man, unfortunately.

[worcesterhibby]

When Southgate first came in, he ditched a lot of old England stalwarts and brought in young fresh talent that he had worked with in the u21s. His mistake is his refusal to do the same now. Unlike a manager of the likes of Ferguson, he seems petrified of building a new team after 6 years of relative success and instead keeps picking underperforming favourites, who might have done it in the past, but seem devoid of confidence, enthusiasm and creativity now. McGuire is basically a great big confidence sucking ****** and his continued presence will be contributing to their demise..no surprise that UTD have started performing now that he’s no where near the first team.

if I was Newcastle I’d be worried, Eddie Howe is the obvious replacement…although I wouldn’t be all that surprised if they opted for Brendan Rogers who must be heading for the door at Leicester.

[MWHIBBIES]

Think Southgate has done a good job creating a pathway from the U21s and integrating youth. He’s also got them to a final and a semi final, credit where it’s due. However with a a bit of context, the kind draws and home advantage, it’s maybe not as impressive as it sounds on paper, while still good achievements.

It seems he’s taken the team as far as he can and I think the parallels with Ross are fair. A good manager but he’s not got that little bit extra where he is the difference between them winning something or not. He will leave good foundations for the next man, unfortunately.

Southgate not to blame for not winning something. Should've won the 2018 semi but would've lost to a far better France side. Italy were the best side in 2021, no doubting that. Beat Spain and Belgium. England taking them to pens and then 3 kids missing is no shame. Really do not think Southgate is the reason they didn't win that final, him not having ''that little bit extra'' isn't why a team misses penalties.

[He's here!]

His record prior to getting the England gig wasn't the level of someone getting one of the biggest jobs in international football. He relegated Middlesbrough FFS.

In with the bricks at the FA, face fits kind of manager. With the squad they have and the youngsters coming through if England are bold with their next appointment they'll be serious contenders in 2024 & 2026. With Southgate in charge even when they are in the latter stages I've never truly believed they were going to win a tournament.

Yep, he took Middlesbrough down but he had a couple of solid seasons before that (IIRC they beat Man City 8-0) and were just a point off the top of the Championship when he was sacked. His subsequent success with England also shows that it's not always a career-ending occurrence if a first managerial job doesn't go smoothly. Plenty of potentially good managers lost to the game who were perhaps thrown in too early.

[A Hi-Bee]

No need to talk about Engurland they have 10 times more people who can do that without any input from Hibs supporters.
I think that Southgate is a nice honest hard working chappie, but dont care what happens to him or his team.
:saltireflag

[Since90+2]

Southgate not to blame for not winning something. Should've won the 2018 semi but would've lost to a far better France side. Italy were the best side in 2021, no doubting that. Beat Spain and Belgium. England taking them to pens and then 3 kids missing is no shame. Really do not think Southgate is the reason they didn't win that final, him not having ''that little bit extra'' isn't why a team misses penalties.

Agree with most of this however if I remember correctly Southgate made two late substitutions, both of whom missed penalties, so he does shoulder some of the responsibility for that.

Of course we would never know if those who were taken off would have scored, we can only go on the evidence of what occurred and from that perspective Southgate got it wrong.

[MWHIBBIES]

Agree with most of this however if I remember correctly Southgate made two late substitutions, both of whom missed penalties, so he does shoulder some of the responsibility for that.

Of course we would never know if those who were taken off would have scored, we can only go on the evidence of what occurred and from that perspective Southgate got it wrong.

If you've got 2 guys on the bench banging in penalties all week in training, and 2 guys on the pitch missing them all week, the logical choice is to make those subs. Nothing is going to work 100% of the time but its still the right call. I really struggle to blame the manager for that.

[Rumble de Thump]

England have a lot of very good players. Some other countries just have better players and better managers. There's no shame in losing to better teams.

[Since90+2]

If you've got 2 guys on the bench banging in penalties all week in training, and 2 guys on the pitch missing them all week, the logical choice is to make those subs. Nothing is going to work 100% of the time but its still the right call. I really struggle to blame the manager for that.

It was more the decision to bring them off the bench straight before the penalties. It adds additional pressure on the penalty taker as they've effectively been brought on for that specific reason, in that scenario you don't want heap more pressure on the taker.

It potentially cost them winning the entire tournament, so Southgate has to carry the blame for tay.

[MWHIBBIES]

It was more the decision to bring them off the bench straight before the penalties. It adds additional pressure on the penalty taker as they've effectively been brought on for that specific reason, in that scenario you don't want heap more pressure on the taker.

It potentially cost them winning the entire tournament, so Southgate has to carry the blame for tay.

Does it add more pressure? maybe playing the game adds pressure and they were happy to come on for a pen? We'll never really know. Guesswork.

[RyeSloan]

Does it add more pressure? maybe playing the game adds pressure and they were happy to come on for a pen? We'll never really know. Guesswork.

To a degree but you can definitely use the outcome as a barometer if the decision was the correct one or not. In this case it wasn’t.

[StirlingHibee]

They have the players for sure and on paper the team sheet looks very strong. However, in line with previous posts, England just seem unable to gel as a team. With the players at their disposal, I guess it could come right on the day, but I can't see it. Brazil at 5-1 odds will be my punt!

[Haymaker]

His record prior to getting the England gig wasn't the level of someone getting one of the biggest jobs in international football. He relegated Middlesbrough FFS.

Was his tenure at Boro not also around the time the owner realized that being $90m+ in debt wasn't sustainable?

[jacomo]

If you've got 2 guys on the bench banging in penalties all week in training, and 2 guys on the pitch missing them all week, the logical choice is to make those subs. Nothing is going to work 100% of the time but its still the right call. I really struggle to blame the manager for that.


I think it was clearly a mistake. The guys might be banging them in in training but introducing them so late into such a high pressure situation was a huge gamble and it didn’t come off.

Southgate still has the best record of any England manager for 50 years though. He’s got them closer to greatness than anyone else since 1966.

[Speedy]

I think it was clearly a mistake. The guys might be banging them in in training but introducing them so late into such a high pressure situation was a huge gamble and it didn’t come off.


Not sure I buy this. A lot of people have said it since they missed, but not many raised these thoughts before the misses. And making late changes in preparation for penalties is hardly a new thing.

[Rumble de Thump]

I think it was clearly a mistake. The guys might be banging them in in training but introducing them so late into such a high pressure situation was a huge gamble and it didn’t come off.

Southgate still has the best record of any England manager for 50 years though. He’s got them closer to greatness than anyone else since 1966.

It was definitely a bad move, unless the players' training involves sitting on a bench for a couple of hours then stepping up to score a high pressure penalty without any ball work to warm up.

[MWHIBBIES]

It was definitely a bad move, unless the players' training involves sitting on a bench for a couple of hours then stepping up to score a high pressure penalty without any ball work to warm up.

Its a penalty. What warm up would be required?

What Southgate did was nothing new. Better managers than him have done similar. The dutch subbed on a goalie for penalties in 2014.

[bingo70]

Someone who watched more English football than me will maybe correct me on this but when I watch them I think they lack a real top quality centre midfielder that’ll dictate the play and the tempo of the game.

They’ve got brilliant midfielders like Rice, Foden, Bellingham and many more but I don’t see someone like a Pirlo or a Veratti that is demanding the ball and picking out passes. Think Kimmich is doing that for Germany tonight.

They’ve got such brilliant attacking players they’ll always be a threat and have enough to win most matches, including tonight. Just seems to me they lack a bit quality on the ball in the centre of midfield.

[BS44]

Some atmosphere.

[Helensburghhibs]

This is where i find the nations league a breath of fresh air. For years the so called top teams have been protected by seedings for big tournaments. With this format there is nowhere for them to hide.

[JimBHibees]

Its a penalty. What warm up would be required?

What Southgate did was nothing new. Better managers than him have done similar. The dutch subbed on a goalie for penalties in 2014.

To get into the game. It is an enormous final and there are bound to be nerves getting put on for a couple of mins.

[Onion]

This is where i find the nations league a breath of fresh air. For years the so called top teams have been protected by seedings for big tournaments. With this format there is nowhere for them to hide.

How easy was that ?
0-2

[Keith_M]

Is that now six games without a win?

[Posh Swanny]

Is that now six games without a win?

:agree:

Gareth is just lulling everyone into a false sense of security.

You wait till he goes 4-4-2 against Iran with Toney and Abraham up top.

[jacomo]

Its a penalty. What warm up would be required?

What Southgate did was nothing new. Better managers than him have done similar. The dutch subbed on a goalie for penalties in 2014.


Louis van Gaal started a trend but it’s gone wrong more than it’s gone right.

And yes, being warmed up is crucial. I believe players mostly practice penalties at the end of training, right? You want to be in that place, and mentally fully tuned into the game.

[nonshinyfinish]

Louis van Gaal started a trend but it’s gone wrong more than it’s gone right.

And yes, being warmed up is crucial. I believe players mostly practice penalties at the end of training, right? You want to be in that place, and mentally fully tuned into the game.

Do you have any numbers on that?

The book Twelve Yards quotes Infostrada's data (all Euros and WCs up to 2012 + Champions League 02/03 to 12/13) on penalty shootout conversion vs time on the field as follows. Unfortunately it doesn't distinguish between "came on at some point in extra time" and "came on right before the shootout", so it doesn't really help here.



Playing time
Sample size
Conversion


1–30 mins
15
86.7%


31–90 mins
72
81.9%


91–120 mins
322
78%

[HoboHarry]

Louis van Gaal started a trend but it’s gone wrong more than it’s gone right.

And yes, being warmed up is crucial. I believe players mostly practice penalties at the end of training, right? You want to be in that place, and mentally fully tuned into the game.
Watched in disbelief last season when David Moyes subbed on Mark Noble in the last minute to take a penalty against Man U. I said before he took it it was a stupid thing to do and look what happened....

[theonlywayisup]

Am I correct in saying that there's not been the usual "it's coming home" chat from our southern neighbours as we approach the final days before the competition begins. Usually by now, we'd have 'experts' saying they will reach at least the semi-finals or even better.

I know this will change once they start to play matches at the World Cup, especially they do tend to be a team that starts slowly and usually win matches at the business end of the tournament.

Has the message sunk in that they are a second-tier nation after their demotion to Europe Nations League Pot B?

[Pagan Hibernia]

Am I correct in saying that there's not been the usual "it's coming home" chat from our southern neighbours as we approach the final days before the competition begins. Usually by now, we'd have 'experts' saying they will reach at least the semi-finals or even better.

I know this will change once they start to play matches at the World Cup, especially they do tend to be a team that starts slowly and usually win matches at the business end of the tournament.

Has the message sunk in that they are a second-tier nation after their demotion to Europe Nations League Pot B?

less interest generally in this World Cup from people I feel. Aside from all ethical concerns it naturally doesn’t have the usual summer beer gardens and barbecues feel to it.

i tried organising a sweepstake in my office and could barely muster any interest from my colleagues. Which is a first.

I would expect the hype to grow after England breeze through the group stage.

[Iain G]

less interest generally in this World Cup from people I feel. Aside from all ethical concerns it naturally doesn’t have the usual summer beer gardens and barbecues feel to it.

i tried organising a sweepstake in my office and could barely muster any interest from my colleagues. Which is a first.

I would expect the hype to grow after England breeze through the group stage.

The whole thing doesn't feel right and doesn't sit well for a number of reasons, partially the daft timing, where it is being held, how it represents the corruption and money first world of international football and also how it's disrupted our domestic game which just feels like it's stopped mid flow.

Even if Scotland had made it, I doubt I would be fully engaged in the thing and that seems the same of most people, it's just very flat and the whole thing seems like a bad idea; a big brown envelope decision and not a football one.

[marinello59]

Am I correct in saying that there's not been the usual "it's coming home" chat from our southern neighbours as we approach the final days before the competition begins. Usually by now, we'd have 'experts' saying they will reach at least the semi-finals or even better.

I know this will change once they start to play matches at the World Cup, especially they do tend to be a team that starts slowly and usually win matches at the business end of the tournament.

Has the message sunk in that they are a second-tier nation after their demotion to Europe Nations League Pot B?

That’s a pretty outdated view of the football media down South. They’re no different from our journalists in the way they report on their national team. The same black humour underpins most of it as well, the awareness that hope will eventually be crushed as they find new ways to mess things up. :greengrin

[Scorrie]

It’s pretty much not talked about here in Liverpool which has never been a hotbed of England support really. Most of my mates are pissed off there’s no Liverpool or Everton matches (though the latter have the gallows humour of being spared the Blues for 6 weeks!)

[Hibbyradge]

That’s a pretty outdated view of the football media down South. They’re no different from our journalists in the way they report on their national team. The same black humour underpins most of it as well, the awareness that hope will eventually be crushed as they find new ways to mess things up. :greengrin

Yeah, that's pretty much the case with the population too. I haven't seen many flags on cars yet, but I'm sure they'll become more prevalent as the team progresses.

I don't think many folk genuinely think England will win it, but they're in the competition so obviously there's hope.

The excitement increases exponentially (remember that word?) when they reach the knock out stage because anyone can win when it's eleven against eleven.

Regardless of what the ABE folk would want you to believe, England are a very strong team in global terms and they can beat anyone on their day so it's understandable that the fans get excited.

As for the newspapers being criticised for setting England up only to rip them to shreds when they fail, they're behaving just like every other group of fans.

Have a look at hibs.net before and after games which we've lost. Confidence verging on hubris before the game with people forecasting big scorelines only to be followed by fury and bitter criticism when reality strikes and we lose.

Most of the players aren't good enough, the manager is inept and those at the top are out of touch.

It's exactly the same as what happens to England because the sports writers are fans too and most of them lose their s##t when they lose.

[Scouse Hibee]

Am I correct in saying that there's not been the usual "it's coming home" chat from our southern neighbours as we approach the final days before the competition begins. Usually by now, we'd have 'experts' saying they will reach at least the semi-finals or even better.

I know this will change once they start to play matches at the World Cup, especially they do tend to be a team that starts slowly and usually win matches at the business end of the tournament.

Has the message sunk in that they are a second-tier nation after their demotion to Europe Nations League Pot B?

Second tier nation 😂
The Nations league, taken seriously only by fans who’s teams can’t quality through the normal format.

[MWHIBBIES]

Am I correct in saying that there's not been the usual "it's coming home" chat from our southern neighbours as we approach the final days before the competition begins. Usually by now, we'd have 'experts' saying they will reach at least the semi-finals or even better.

I know this will change once they start to play matches at the World Cup, especially they do tend to be a team that starts slowly and usually win matches at the business end of the tournament.

Has the message sunk in that they are a second-tier nation after their demotion to Europe Nations League Pot B?

England reached the semis and final of the last 2 tournaments. Scotland have scored 1 goal in major tournaments in 25 years.

England have a very good squad, they wont be an easy game for anyone.

[The dalmeny]

Am I correct in saying that there's not been the usual "it's coming home" chat?

There's a new version of said song out. As I get older England become more just another team.

[Springbank]

Second tier nation 😂
The Nations league, taken seriously only by fans who’s teams can’t quality through the normal format.

I think England are in for a South Africa 2010 type of world Cup

USA are way better than the English press think, Wales know they'll be legends at home if they get any sort of result v their old foes, and Iran in the first game (when teams are still rusty) would not be everyone's choice, I suspect

[angus hibby]

Their side of the draw is favourable (again!). Wouldn’t be a surprise to see them go far.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

England reached the semis and final of the last 2 tournaments. Scotland have scored 1 goal in major tournaments in 25 years.

England have a very good squad, they wont be an easy game for anyone.

Scotlands record in tournaments is embarrassing. 8 attempts and never getting out of the group stages. You can't argue about size of country as similar sized and smaller sized countries have much better records. Croatia got to the last Final, Denmark have won the Euros. Closer to home, Wales got to the semi of Euro 2016. Rep of Ireland and N.Ireland have both got out of the group stages.

Back to England. They've been given a favourable draw. If they win the group, I'd expect them to reach Quarters assuming Netherlands win their group. If all goes to form, will play France in the Quarters who'll be too strong for them.

[JimBHibees]

Their side of the draw is favourable (again!). Wouldn’t be a surprise to see them go far.

Likely France in quarters doesn't sound that favourable

[Gmack7]

Likely France in quarters doesn't sound that favourable

2 or 3 key players missing for France, but they still have a very strong side

[MWHIBBIES]

Scotlands record in tournaments is embarrassing. 8 attempts and never getting out of the group stages. You can't argue about size of country as similar sized and smaller sized countries have much better records. Croatia got to the last Final, Denmark have won the Euros. Closer to home, Wales got to the semi of Euro 2016. Rep of Ireland and N.Ireland have both got out of the group stages.

Back to England. They've been given a favourable draw. If they win the group, I'd expect them to reach Quarters assuming Netherlands win their group. If all goes to form, will play France in the Quarters who'll be too strong for them.

France already missing 4 key players, including probably their best one in Benzema. Lloris is a bit shaky, new midfield will have to play. They also absolutely love a wee meltdown at a major tourney, and weren't great in the Euros. Certainly better players than England, but its not a sure thing.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Likely France in quarters doesn't sound that favourable

I would say they have in terms of their initial group and that they are paired with Group A in the knockout which has Qatar as the top seed.

[JimBHibees]

I would say they have in terms of their initial group and that they are paired with Group A in the knockout which has Qatar as the top seed.

Fair enough

[HibeeHibernia]

hopefully Iran pump them

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

Fair enough

Funny enough, had Scotland qualified that would have been our group. Maybe we would have made it 9th time lucky. 😉

[James Stephen]

Second tier nation 😂
The Nations league, taken seriously only by fans who’s teams can’t quality through the normal format.

England are a second tier nation in terms of their historic record - one world cup trophy, 1 euro final, and thats it.

But they do have resources and players to be much better, and they have historically been one of the biggest underachievers in world football.

Id say current team is past its peak, but they are still very good, packed with top class players. I think they lack a top class manager.

Personally, id say they are in the tier just below favourites, of the many countries who could win it with a bit of luck. Along with France, Germany, Argentina etc

Ill be cheering on whoever they are playing, as is traditional 😁

[green day]

England have some very good players, the question is how brave Southgate will be?

The truth is that on paper, they should comfortably win that group.

Having said that, Iran are no mugs, so it will be an interesting first match - take less than 3 points and the media will give Southgate a hard time and ramp up the pressure.

[Donegal Hibby]

England have some very good players, the question is how brave Southgate will be?

The truth is that on paper, they should comfortably win that group.

Having said that, Iran are no mugs, so it will be an interesting first match - take less than 3 points and the media will give Southgate a hard time and ramp up the pressure.
Southgate has been quite negative and with players like Kane , Grealish, Bellingham and Foden in your team a more attacking approach would suit them better I feel.I think England will easily top there group and get to quarter finals were they will probably meet France who will be favourites but if they hit a good game in that one you just never know they could pull off a shock result.( Unlikely though) .Winners of that game will probably play either Portugal, Uruguay or Belgium in semi's. If it's France you'd fancy them for final , if it's England I'd say they have a 50/50 chance of making the final.

[Scouse Hibee]

England are a second tier nation in terms of their historic record - one world cup trophy, 1 euro final, and thats it.

But they do have resources and players to be much better, and they have historically been one of the biggest underachievers in world football.

Id say current team is past its peak, but they are still very good, packed with top class players. I think they lack a top class manager.

Personally, id say they are in the tier just below favourites, of the many countries who could win it with a bit of luck. Along with France, Germany, Argentina etc

Ill be cheering on whoever they are playing, as is traditional 😁

England are a top tier nation currently ranked at number five.

[James Stephen]

England are a top tier nation currently ranked at number five.

Which is why i said historically... it makes their underachievement even more stark

[NAE NOOKIE]

England are a top tier nation currently ranked at number five.

Lets face it mate the FIFA rankings are a head scratcher at the best of times :greengrin

It has to be said though that England's record at major tournaments is far less than it should be, one WC final as hosts which they won, one Euro final as hosts which they lost. On the basis that they walk qualifying on practically every occasion their record at the business end is a bit of an embarrassment in all honesty.

Though Wales, Iran and the USA will be no mugs England should be far too strong for them, if they aren't and their pre WC form continues into the tournament you can see that woeful record continuing.

[where'stheslope]

Loved the piece this morning with Geoff Hurst and Gazza, Hurst was asked how England would do, and he replied we've got to the semis in the last world cup and the final of the Euro's.
Richard Madely said that they never did well in the nations league, to which Geoff said " No point in looking backwards"????

[Scouse Hibee]

Lets face it mate the FIFA rankings are a head scratcher at the best of times :greengrin

It has to be said though that England's record at major tournaments is far less than it should be, one WC final as hosts which they won, one Euro final as hosts which they lost. On the basis that they walk qualifying on practically every occasion their record at the business end is a bit of an embarrassment in all honesty.

Though Wales, Iran and the USA will be no mugs England should be far too strong for them, if they aren't and their pre WC form continues into the tournament you can see that woeful record continuing.

I might be biased 😂

[SHODAN]

England will win a tournament this decade. Probably Euro 2028.

[GreenCastle]

England will win a tournament this decade. Probably Euro 2028.

There is a reason they want to host it again so soon in 2028.

Home advantage and Euros easier to win than World Cup.

[WeeRussell]

England will win a tournament.

So we’ve been hearing for the last 5 decades.

[Sioux]

England are elevated to their unnatural heights because of the hype that goes with everything England. Best in the world at everything, but win virtually nothing.

Their players are no better than they have been for donkeys years, yet all we hear is this is the best side to go to a tournament, and we hear it every two years! Oh, and the best league in the world (where the best players are not English)!

The press and TV are the worst culprits, and as for that joke BBC mob, Lineker, Shearer and that clown Richards, they are an embarrassment.

When this tournament is finished, there will be the usual cries of sack the manager, the players are not good enough and overpaid, its all the FA's fault. And so on and so on....................

Let the failure begin, and ignore a result against the mighty Iran, a pub team that scored twice.

[B.H.F.C]

England got some brilliant attacking players. To score six without Kane scoring, in a World Cup game (even against pish) takes a bit of doing.

Defence will cost them though. Iran were only up the park a couple of times and managed to score a couple.

England got a relatively straightforward route to the quarters though.

[MWHIBBIES]

England got some brilliant attacking players. To score six without Kane scoring, in a World Cup game (even against pish) takes a bit of doing.

Defence will cost them though. Iran were only up the park a couple of times and managed to score a couple.

England got a relatively straightforward route to the quarters though.

That defence might. One with Kyle Walker and Ben White in it might not. Can't see Southgate playing that.

[Since90+2]

England are probably the biggest underachieving football nation of all time. When you compare them to the bigger European and South American nations their record is woeful.

They'd probably just about scrape in the top 10.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

They were impressive today, and with the favourable draw should reach quarters. It remains to be seen whether Southgate will revert to negative type when faced with more serious opposition, and hope to grind out a result rather than believing in his attacking players. If he changes his ways they have a chance.

[Brummie_Hibs]

Scoring by 6 in a WC game is no mean achievement, but losing 2 goals to Iran highlights England's defence weaknesses.

Good

[Jones28]

England were good today. I can’t help but like this squad of players, they don’t have the obnoxiousness of previous teams. Bellingham is some player, Saka and Sterling both looked good as well.

[B.H.F.C]

England were good today. I can’t help but like this squad of players, they don’t have the obnoxiousness of previous teams. Bellingham is some player, Sancho and Sterling both looked good as well.

Think you’re getting Sancho mixed up with Saka.

[JimBHibees]

England are elevated to their unnatural heights because of the hype that goes with everything England. Best in the world at everything, but win virtually nothing.

Their players are no better than they have been for donkeys years, yet all we hear is this is the best side to go to a tournament, and we hear it every two years! Oh, and the best league in the world (where the best players are not English)!

The press and TV are the worst culprits, and as for that joke BBC mob, Lineker, Shearer and that clown Richards, they are an embarrassment.

When this tournament is finished, there will be the usual cries of sack the manager, the players are not good enough and overpaid, its all the FA's fault. And so on and so on....................

Let the failure begin, and ignore a result against the mighty Iran, a pub team that scored twice.

Very poor when they have an English studio. Not context or balance at all

[Jones28]

Think you’re getting Sancho mixed up with Saka.

Saka Yepp thank you.

[Scottie]

Scoring by 6 in a WC game is no mean achievement, but losing 2 goals to Iran highlights England's defence weaknesses.

Good
:agree: Bearing in mind Iran lost their 1st choice keeper after 5 minutes and brought on Zibi in his place for England to score 6 against a pub team was some achievement for them.